1 00:00:16,559 --> 00:00:19,920 Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of The Federalist 2 00:00:20,039 --> 00:00:23,359 Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at The 3 00:00:23,399 --> 00:00:28,039 Federalist and your experienced Shirpa on today's quest for Knowledge. 4 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,239 As always, you can email the show at radio at 5 00:00:31,239 --> 00:00:35,439 the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at FDR LST, 6 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,200 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and 7 00:00:39,359 --> 00:00:42,600 of course to the premium version of our website as well. 8 00:00:43,119 --> 00:00:46,240 Our guest today is Ryan Wolfe, Director of the Center 9 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,840 for Excellence in Journalism at the Fund for American Studies. 10 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,479 Ryan works with young professionals to further their careers in 11 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:59,759 public policy and journalism through a variety of fellowships, including 12 00:01:00,439 --> 00:01:06,519 the TIFAS Public Policy Fellowship, Robert Novak Journalism Fellowship, and 13 00:01:06,719 --> 00:01:10,400 the what is It? The Joseph Rago Memorial Fellowship for 14 00:01:10,519 --> 00:01:14,760 Excellence in Journalism. Ryan, thanks so much, and welcome to 15 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:15,879 the Federalist Radio Hour. 16 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me. 17 00:01:18,439 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: Oh, we have a lot to talk about. I don't 18 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:24,680 know if thirty to forty minutes is going to cover it, 19 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,519 because there's so much to delve into the world of 20 00:01:28,519 --> 00:01:34,040 politics and American journalism and how American journalism covers politics, 21 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:36,959 this election cycle and what we've seen over the last 22 00:01:37,439 --> 00:01:45,200 several years in this country. But let's start with the Well, 23 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,599 let's start with a Newsweek analysis piece that I find 24 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,680 particularly interesting and I think you're going to see, and 25 00:01:52,719 --> 00:01:56,480 we've already seen plenty of these kinds of what happened 26 00:01:57,159 --> 00:02:01,400 pieces out there. The headline is Donald Trump one, but 27 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:05,879 the biggest loser was the mainstream media. This from Newsweek's 28 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:10,240 Carlo Versano, giving credit where credit is due. Last month, 29 00:02:11,319 --> 00:02:15,520 the entrepreneur Patrick Bette David had Donald Trump on his 30 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:20,319 podcast where he congratulated him for quote killing the mainstream media. 31 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,680 I did. I'm very proud of it too, Trump responded, 32 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,479 it was classic Trump bombbass that carried with it more 33 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:33,319 than a kernel of truth. While the President elect may 34 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:38,840 not have personally ended the media defined for the purposes 35 00:02:38,879 --> 00:02:42,439 of this story as newspapers, TV, radio and the like, 36 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,960 including the outlet, your reading the press as a whole 37 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:52,879 comes out of Tuesday's election a far diminished force. Let's 38 00:02:52,879 --> 00:02:55,840 begin there. Ryan. Do you believe as much that the 39 00:02:55,879 --> 00:02:59,360 press has come out of this election cycle as a 40 00:02:59,479 --> 00:03:01,039 far diminished force? 41 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 3: I absolutely agree. I mean, there's a few ways that 42 00:03:05,159 --> 00:03:10,039 you can look at this analysis. So on one hand, 43 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,439 you can say that the press has been greatly diminished 44 00:03:14,479 --> 00:03:19,039 over the last twenty twenty five thirty years, just the 45 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:24,680 decline in local media viewership kind of going down across 46 00:03:25,479 --> 00:03:29,560 radio and TV. So I think some of it is, 47 00:03:29,599 --> 00:03:31,080 you know, you have a big event that helps you 48 00:03:31,159 --> 00:03:33,719 realize trends that have been happening for a long time, 49 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:36,360 and I think that's that's one part of it. 50 00:03:37,199 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 2: But along those lines. 51 00:03:38,599 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 3: Where you see growth in the media is online, on podcasts, 52 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,840 on videos, and kind of more of an influencer focus 53 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:53,960 media ecosystem as opposed to a publication focused one, and 54 00:03:55,039 --> 00:03:58,120 the publications that are doing well tend to be focused 55 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:04,680 around you know, news or opinion personalities. So that ecosystem 56 00:04:04,719 --> 00:04:08,159 is something Trump really tapped into and took advantage of 57 00:04:08,199 --> 00:04:12,039 this election cycle to get his message out to his 58 00:04:12,879 --> 00:04:15,560 intended audience, which I think was younger people and younger men. 59 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:21,600 And so going on Joe Rogan, going on Theovonn's podcast, 60 00:04:22,199 --> 00:04:25,199 Andrew Schulz's podcast, you know a lot of comedians, but 61 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,399 a lot of people with who don't watch you know, 62 00:04:29,519 --> 00:04:34,040 the six pm hour of Fox or CNN. You know 63 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,560 that that really worked for him. It. I think young 64 00:04:37,639 --> 00:04:42,959 men under twenty eighteen twenty nine moved about thirty points 65 00:04:42,959 --> 00:04:47,920 in his direction from I think in small part to 66 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:52,319 his media strategy. And I would just say the second 67 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,560 point is that people want the media to tell them 68 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,959 what's happening on the ground, to give him an act 69 00:05:00,079 --> 00:05:03,160 you at view of what the future might look like, 70 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,720 and they did not quite accomplish that. 71 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:08,079 Speaker 2: I think this election cycle. 72 00:05:08,759 --> 00:05:11,319 Speaker 1: More on that in just a bit, but it should 73 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:15,720 become as no surprise that Donald Trump would tap into 74 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,600 the new forms of media, the new forms of communication 75 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:23,199 out there. He's had to do a lot of work around, 76 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,240 of course, over his time in office and his time 77 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:30,120 in campaigning for that office. We know what he did, 78 00:05:30,959 --> 00:05:35,160 revolutionize the use of Twitter to get his message, you know, 79 00:05:35,199 --> 00:05:39,519 the electronic fireside chats if you will, from Donald Trump, 80 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,680 you know, alluding to FDR and how successful Franklin delan 81 00:05:44,759 --> 00:05:48,879 or Roosevelt was in reaching out and covering his message 82 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,480 a message. Of course, if I lived at the time, 83 00:05:52,519 --> 00:05:56,639 I would totally disagree with in terms of massive government 84 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:01,199 growth that FDR kept proposing, but it was very effective. 85 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,439 Trump was very effective with Twitter, so effective that Twitter 86 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:10,680 wouldn't allow them to be effective. And so there are 87 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:14,560 two questions in the lead up, that large lead up 88 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:19,600 that I have. The one is, are are you at 89 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:25,399 all surprised that Trump picked up where Kamala Harris was 90 00:06:25,439 --> 00:06:29,399 not able to connect, you know, in the new forms 91 00:06:29,439 --> 00:06:33,920 of media? And how big a role did the buyer 92 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:39,959 of Twitter, Elon Musk, play in this election. 93 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I'll start with with your first question. 94 00:06:46,399 --> 00:06:47,399 Speaker 2: I mean, I think. 95 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:52,199 Speaker 3: In presidential campaigns, you know, over the course of time, 96 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,399 there's been sort of media traditions, right the candidates all 97 00:06:55,399 --> 00:06:59,879 go on sixty minutes, they do a certain number of debates, 98 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:05,879 and you know, those traditions I think be done to 99 00:07:05,959 --> 00:07:08,480 make a lot less sense in the last you know, 100 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:12,399 eight years, and as as the media has changed. So 101 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,079 I think but Trump is doing a sort of treading 102 00:07:15,079 --> 00:07:17,279 a new path. I think every presidential candidate is going 103 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,600 to want to go on Joe Rogan now, and you 104 00:07:20,639 --> 00:07:25,120 know there's sort of new traditions, new common sense things 105 00:07:25,199 --> 00:07:28,000 every presidential candidate will do that are going to come 106 00:07:28,319 --> 00:07:31,480 to the four Because of his success in this cycle, 107 00:07:32,959 --> 00:07:36,879 Elon and his purchase of Twitter, I think was a 108 00:07:36,879 --> 00:07:39,720 big deal, just because you know, he's more committed to 109 00:07:39,759 --> 00:07:44,399 free speech, pretty committed I think to to you know, 110 00:07:44,439 --> 00:07:47,480 not having at least not the same algorithmic bias as 111 00:07:47,519 --> 00:07:48,920 other social media networks. 112 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:52,439 Speaker 2: And you know, I. 113 00:07:52,399 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 3: Think ultimately it it was interesting because the media may 114 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:03,360 be downplayed some signs from X that Trump might do 115 00:08:03,519 --> 00:08:09,639 well because of Elon's ownership, and but I think that 116 00:08:11,199 --> 00:08:14,079 you know, his his personal advocacy for Trump and being 117 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,720 sort of you know, I think he's one of the 118 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:22,000 biggest sort of influencer type names on the planet that 119 00:08:22,079 --> 00:08:25,199 you could have endorse you So him lining up behind Trump, 120 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,959 spending lots of money through his his pack, working hard 121 00:08:28,959 --> 00:08:30,560 on the getting out the votes. So I think that 122 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,720 means a lot more than anything that was done on X. 123 00:08:33,759 --> 00:08:38,279 I think that, you know, really Galvin I supporters got 124 00:08:38,399 --> 00:08:42,080 Joe Rogan's endorsement for Trump. I think, so, you know, 125 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,240 I think Elon was was a major factor. 126 00:08:45,279 --> 00:08:45,919 Speaker 2: He risked a. 127 00:08:45,879 --> 00:08:49,639 Speaker 3: Lot in doing all of this, but I think you know, 128 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:53,720 he's he's hoping to get sort of the deregulatory effects 129 00:08:53,799 --> 00:08:57,919 that will help his companies thrive in the next four years. 130 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: I think where he began Musk was absolutely vital to 131 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,159 where all of this ended, and that was in the 132 00:09:06,159 --> 00:09:11,799 purchase of Twitter. He exposed the executives and the people 133 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:16,799 of Twitter for doing what they did, colluding with the government, 134 00:09:16,919 --> 00:09:23,799 colluding with the Biden administration, colluding with the deep state, 135 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:31,000 in shutting down conservative messages, conservative thought. And I think 136 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,799 that was agree or disagree. I think that was critical 137 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,720 over the last four years and in this election cycle, 138 00:09:40,039 --> 00:09:45,159 in communicating further, not that this is the only example, 139 00:09:45,159 --> 00:09:50,200 but communicating further to the American people, the news consumer, 140 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,320 and the voter that this is a kind of a 141 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:58,840 rig system big tech. What we saw with Mark Zuckerberg 142 00:09:58,879 --> 00:10:03,919 and Facebook and Zuckerbucks in twenty twenty, the collusion that 143 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:09,919 went on. How much did that play in all of 144 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,320 this election with the mindset of the news consumer and 145 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:14,200 the American voter. 146 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:22,639 Speaker 3: Sure, I mean, American trust in institutions basically across the 147 00:10:22,639 --> 00:10:28,279 board is all going down. So, you know, accusations of 148 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:33,720 things being rigged, regardless of how rigged it was, I 149 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,480 think people tend to believe it, or believe that there's 150 00:10:36,519 --> 00:10:39,000 at least some sort of truth in those statements. I mean, 151 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:43,320 and with we have examples from Twitter, because the Twitter files, 152 00:10:43,399 --> 00:10:47,759 you know exactly how that happens behind the scenes. But 153 00:10:48,799 --> 00:10:51,519 you know, I think in this election cycle, if you 154 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:57,759 look at Mark Stuckerberg, for example, I think he decided 155 00:10:57,919 --> 00:10:59,200 Jeff Bezos. 156 00:10:58,759 --> 00:11:02,279 Speaker 2: For the washingon non endorsement sort of also. 157 00:11:02,519 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 3: Decided that, you know, that kind of activism that they 158 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,519 were involved in in twenty twenty, the kind of fill 159 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,879 in propit spending that the Zeclberg channelis ship did you know, 160 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,200 was bad for the country, bad for the institutions that 161 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,159 they run, and they didn't want to do that again. 162 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,720 And I think you see, you know, many of them 163 00:11:24,759 --> 00:11:30,559 have their congratulatory tweets and posts up for President Trump now, 164 00:11:30,639 --> 00:11:33,600 and so I think what they're focused on is, you know, 165 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:37,840 with the decreasing trust and institutions in America, Yeah, that 166 00:11:37,879 --> 00:11:41,519 means they're also trusting you know, Meta or Facebook less, 167 00:11:41,519 --> 00:11:45,759 they're trusting Amazon less, and they want people to feel 168 00:11:45,799 --> 00:11:50,639 comfortable using their platforms doing business on them. And so 169 00:11:50,759 --> 00:11:54,919 I think they're changing their tune politically in order to 170 00:11:55,759 --> 00:11:56,720 try to have that effect. 171 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:01,639 Speaker 1: I think that their very core, their opportunites. I don't know, 172 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:05,559 if they're business, they're trying to do business absolutely, and 173 00:12:05,639 --> 00:12:08,960 you know, and God bless them for that. And so 174 00:12:09,039 --> 00:12:11,759 they saw the writing on the wall. The Bezos thing 175 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,919 is very interesting to me because you know this long 176 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:19,120 standing feud between Trump and Jeff Bezos. But he, as 177 00:12:19,159 --> 00:12:24,399 you mentioned, coming out congratulating Donald Trump. You know, Mark 178 00:12:24,519 --> 00:12:29,440 Cuban is saying that, you know, as much of a 179 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:33,000 surrogate as he was for Kamala Harris coming out and saying, 180 00:12:33,039 --> 00:12:36,600 you know, great race run by Donald Trump, congratulating him. 181 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,720 All of that sort of thing playing into this. 182 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 4: The left keeps preaching for a quality of Kamala is elected, 183 00:12:45,759 --> 00:12:48,480 but is this a dystopian America? The Watch Dout on 184 00:12:48,519 --> 00:12:51,600 Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day, Chris helps 185 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:54,279 unpack the connection between politics and the economy and how 186 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,840 it affects your wallet. The idea that we're all supposed 187 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,399 to end up in the exact same place, even after 188 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,519 working much harder than they are. That's like a dystopian 189 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,240 Kurt Vonnegut novel. Whether it's happening in DC or down 190 00:13:05,279 --> 00:13:07,039 on Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. 191 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:07,639 Speaker 1: Be informed. 192 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:09,759 Speaker 4: Check out the watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris 193 00:13:09,879 --> 00:13:13,279 mccowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. 194 00:13:14,639 --> 00:13:17,799 Speaker 1: I want to go back to that Newsweek piece that 195 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,360 we mentioned earlier on because I think there's some interesting 196 00:13:21,639 --> 00:13:27,559 stuff in here that we're seeing elsewhere. On CNN, political 197 00:13:27,639 --> 00:13:31,519 commentator Scott Jennings, a former aide to President George W. Bush, 198 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:35,320 outlined where he said the media had aired in the 199 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,480 final weeks of the campaign. He said, we have been 200 00:13:39,519 --> 00:13:43,200 sitting around for the last couple weeks and the story 201 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,559 that was portrayed was not true. He said, we were 202 00:13:47,639 --> 00:13:51,679 told Puerto Rico was going to change the election, Liz Cheney, 203 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,720 Nicky Hayley, voters, women lying to their husbands. Before that, 204 00:13:55,799 --> 00:14:00,320 it was Tim Walls and the Camo hats, night after 205 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,720 night after night. We were told all these things in 206 00:14:03,759 --> 00:14:08,200 gimmicks were going to somehow push eras over the line, 207 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:12,279 and the story was not true. That's the question I 208 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:17,679 think a lot of Americans have. If the story wasn't true, 209 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,919 why did a press that tells us it is a 210 00:14:22,039 --> 00:14:28,120 responsible and objective press, why did they believe it over 211 00:14:28,279 --> 00:14:29,159 and over again. 212 00:14:31,399 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 3: That's a great question. I guess I would say sort 213 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,559 of two things. One is that you know, for a 214 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,960 press to try to be objective, a really good question 215 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,480 for them to ask is like, must I believe this 216 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,679 is there just overwhelming evidence that will force me to 217 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,919 believe that this is true. And if you notice a 218 00:14:51,919 --> 00:14:54,879 lot of the time when they're reporting on, you know, 219 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:59,039 certain issues that you know, the right has focused on 220 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:03,759 our conservatives about, they tend to have that disposition, or 221 00:15:03,759 --> 00:15:07,639 at least good journalists, you know, will we'll have that 222 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:11,000 and not immediately dismissed concerns coming from the right. I think, 223 00:15:11,759 --> 00:15:14,159 you know, in the last year or so, the Clouding 224 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,679 gay plagiarism example comes to mind as a story where 225 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:18,919 the evidence was just so. 226 00:15:18,799 --> 00:15:20,879 Speaker 2: Overwhelming they sort of had to accept it. 227 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,879 Speaker 3: You know. The anti semitism on campus was another example 228 00:15:25,879 --> 00:15:30,320 of that. They don't do the same thing where their 229 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,799 story is coming from the left and when they feel 230 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,440 like they are in a very very tight news cycle 231 00:15:37,879 --> 00:15:42,440 and sort of all of the pr campaign folks that 232 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:44,679 they hear from all the time, from from the Hairs 233 00:15:44,759 --> 00:15:50,559 campaign are pushing this message out to them. Now, what 234 00:15:50,639 --> 00:15:53,360 we would like in the media, I think we would 235 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,399 all like to see in the media is sort of 236 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,240 you know, reporters on the ground that can give you 237 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,879 a gut check of you know, okay, you know, the 238 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,679 journalists living in New York or DC or LA or 239 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,840 saying this story is real, and activist groups are you know, 240 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,000 saying this story is real. Let me go out and 241 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,759 interview some people on the ground. Let me go out 242 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:21,360 to you know, voters in Iowa or Florida or Georgia. 243 00:16:20,919 --> 00:16:22,679 Speaker 2: And and see what they think about this. 244 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:28,399 Speaker 3: We don't have a local media really anymore, and so 245 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:33,159 we don't really have this sort of quick, uh gut 246 00:16:33,399 --> 00:16:36,360 check sort of analysis that we can get from people 247 00:16:36,399 --> 00:16:40,960 on the ground. And so a lot of it is just, uh, 248 00:16:41,039 --> 00:16:43,720 the mainstream media can kind of whip itself into a 249 00:16:43,759 --> 00:16:47,480 frenzy when there's a video clip like the one from 250 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:52,399 Madison Square Garden without really talking to anyone outside of 251 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:58,000 their little group, and that includes activists, that includes pr people. 252 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,440 So it really does make you wonder. I mean I 253 00:17:01,519 --> 00:17:06,480 really wondered whether Tony hinchcliff story. You know, he was 254 00:17:06,519 --> 00:17:09,960 speaking hours before Trump. The words he said did not 255 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,440 come out of Trump's mouth. You know, he's a comedian. 256 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:14,440 It's supposed to be a joke. It doesn't mean it 257 00:17:14,559 --> 00:17:19,920 landed well, but that was an attention and it struck 258 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,240 me that there was no way that this could move 259 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,400 tens of thousands of voters in the way that the 260 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,839 media was saying just because it was sort of an 261 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:31,920 inconsequential non event that was, you know, being passed around 262 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:32,680 the media, but. 263 00:17:33,279 --> 00:17:35,759 Speaker 2: Probably not even making it into advertise. 264 00:17:36,839 --> 00:17:39,640 Speaker 3: You know, online ads or video ads or TV ads 265 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:41,279 in time for the end of the campaign. 266 00:17:41,599 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 2: So it's hard for me to see how it can 267 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:45,240 actually move votes. 268 00:17:45,599 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 1: But I think that's an interesting point. Is it the 269 00:17:48,759 --> 00:17:53,319 media's job? And as you mentioned, and I think that's 270 00:17:53,759 --> 00:17:56,079 that's an excellent point in all of this, is we 271 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:00,279 have seen the absolute death and certainly the dirt of 272 00:18:00,319 --> 00:18:04,599 local media in this country. That's a real alarming, problematic 273 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:09,440 thing because, as my colleague Mark Hemingway has written about 274 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:15,720 at the Federalist, that void is being filled by very 275 00:18:15,839 --> 00:18:20,119 partisan news organizations across the country. There are a lot 276 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,359 of these models, and a lot of them are nonprofit. 277 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,559 That's a subject perhaps for another day, but that's what's 278 00:18:25,599 --> 00:18:31,079 going on. But is it the job of the media 279 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:37,079 to move votes? Because I see them trying to do 280 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,160 that and moving votes in a one particular way. Of course, 281 00:18:41,599 --> 00:18:44,720 I think a lot of Americans saw that in this election, 282 00:18:44,839 --> 00:18:47,400 in the twenty twenty election, and I think to a 283 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,799 great degree in the twenty sixteen election. And I think 284 00:18:50,839 --> 00:18:54,279 of all of this, where was the starting point when 285 00:18:54,319 --> 00:18:58,839 it became this kind of activist journalism? And I think 286 00:18:58,839 --> 00:19:01,079 you can look at a lot of entry points, but 287 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:06,279 one for me actually was kind of in a streaming 288 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:10,240 show that came out around twenty twelve. Do you remember 289 00:19:10,279 --> 00:19:16,440 The Newsroom, Aaron Sorkin's creation. And I'm not saying that 290 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:23,480 this particular show with Jeff Daniels shaped every newsroom out there, 291 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,599 but I think there was a great deal of truth 292 00:19:25,759 --> 00:19:34,599 about how newsrooms were approaching stories, particularly political stories in 293 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,359 America then and how truthful it's become now. And the 294 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,359 whole point of that show was we're not going to 295 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,920 take all sides of the story because basically the Republican 296 00:19:46,079 --> 00:19:50,480 or conservative side of the story isn't meaningful, it's not true, 297 00:19:50,559 --> 00:19:54,200 it doesn't matter. This was a good four years before 298 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,440 Donald Trump, and I think that's played out in newsrooms 299 00:19:57,559 --> 00:19:59,240 across the country. What do you think? 300 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,799 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I agree, I think, you know, the 301 00:20:04,839 --> 00:20:09,440 famous opening monologue of the Newsroom was just pretty you know, 302 00:20:09,519 --> 00:20:11,759 symbolic of what the whole show is like. 303 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of issues. 304 00:20:15,759 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 3: One is sort of that there's not many veteran journalists 305 00:20:20,759 --> 00:20:23,640 out there. A lot of these news rooms are mostly 306 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:27,599 stacked by by younger people who are more on the left. 307 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,559 And every year that goes by, every election cycle that 308 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,400 goes by, more of the old school people who believe 309 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,920 in objective journalism retire, get. 310 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 2: Bought out, and you know, move. 311 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 3: On from working in the press, and more of these 312 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,839 young people, usually from elite you know, Ivy League, liberal 313 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,160 arts colleges, get hired, and their review of what it 314 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:57,519 means to be a journalist just looks very, very different 315 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,039 from the traditional American. 316 00:21:01,599 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 2: Understanding of that position. 317 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 3: They think they are supposed to be activists, or they 318 00:21:07,759 --> 00:21:12,920 at least think they shouldn't help Trump win. If they 319 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:17,319 helped Trump win, that ends democracy. It's the end of America. 320 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:22,440 You know, that's their philosophical prior. And so I think 321 00:21:22,519 --> 00:21:28,039 after maybe the Komi letter in sixteen, that's been a 322 00:21:28,039 --> 00:21:31,519 pretty predominant view of. 323 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,559 Speaker 2: How the media should handle Trump, and. 324 00:21:38,319 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 3: I think older school journalists, you know, we were mentioning 325 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,920 right before we started just how in twenty sixteen, the 326 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,039 Washington Post, in New York Times and a few other 327 00:21:48,079 --> 00:21:51,559 places basically said, you know, we're sorry we missed this 328 00:21:51,759 --> 00:21:54,359 election and what was going on, and we need to 329 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,480 treat our readers, you know, like adults and give them 330 00:21:58,519 --> 00:22:01,400 the truth and go out and find the people that 331 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:03,160 we miss and do better reporting. 332 00:22:03,319 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 2: And you know that ended. 333 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:11,759 Speaker 3: Right as the Russia hopes sort of started. But you 334 00:22:11,759 --> 00:22:13,759 know that I think was the right instinct and it 335 00:22:13,799 --> 00:22:17,000 was coming from these more better and experienced folks, and 336 00:22:17,079 --> 00:22:19,720 I just it'll be interesting to see what the response 337 00:22:19,799 --> 00:22:24,240 is this this time around, because there's less of these 338 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,880 journalists that believe in you know, objective news reporting and 339 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,799 sort of informing their audiences rather than guiding them left. 340 00:22:33,559 --> 00:22:37,880 Speaker 1: That is where we're going to eventually go with this conversation. 341 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:43,079 It's what your organization really was created for, and that 342 00:22:43,279 --> 00:22:48,480 is to deal with the next and to help shape 343 00:22:48,519 --> 00:22:53,519 the next generation of journalism. 344 00:22:53,559 --> 00:22:57,319 Speaker 5: This is Molly Hemingley encouraging you to listen to my 345 00:22:57,559 --> 00:23:02,839 favorite podcast, Issues. Every day you get in depth interviews 346 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:07,880 with host Todd Wilkin, asking expert guests substantive, thought provoking 347 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,200 questions on all of the important news and issues of 348 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,720 our day. The expert guests are in culture, law, ethics, philosophy, 349 00:23:15,839 --> 00:23:22,519 theology and apologetics. Expert guests expansive topics, always extolling christ issues, 350 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:23,200 et cetera. 351 00:23:25,839 --> 00:23:31,319 Speaker 1: Our guest today on this hour, Federalist Radio Hour is 352 00:23:32,559 --> 00:23:36,440 a gentleman who is on the front lines of that conversation. 353 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,160 Ryan Wolfe, Director of the Center for Excellence in Journalism 354 00:23:40,279 --> 00:23:44,720 at the Fund for American Studies. Yeah. I want to 355 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,960 touch upon that point because I remember that distinctly post 356 00:23:48,039 --> 00:23:51,960 twenty sixteen. These mia culpas coming from the New York Times, 357 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,839 the Washington Post, they're alms budsman. They're supposed to be 358 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,519 working with the public, the voice between the public and 359 00:23:59,559 --> 00:24:03,519 the news rooms, and saying, yeah, we messed up here, 360 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:08,759 we screwed up. We should acknowledge that there are other 361 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,720 voices out there than our bubble. I don't think they've 362 00:24:12,799 --> 00:24:15,720 learned anything. I think we'll see the mia culpas again. 363 00:24:16,279 --> 00:24:20,559 But did this And I say this because I remember 364 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:25,039 right before the election. I think Brian Stelter from CNN, 365 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,960 who's had his own interesting career in journalism, he's had 366 00:24:30,559 --> 00:24:34,720 he's had a journey, indeed, but I believe he reported 367 00:24:34,759 --> 00:24:41,359 that he had talked to a network executive and who 368 00:24:41,519 --> 00:24:46,920 told him that if Donald Trump wins this election, and 369 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:51,319 particularly if Donald Trump wins this election decisively, which he 370 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:57,920 has done, then the so called mainstream media, corporate media 371 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:02,759 is done for, because that means that Americans did not 372 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:08,119 listen to them. What do you think about that statement? 373 00:25:10,759 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 2: Well, I think it's done for. Is pushing it. 374 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:20,759 Speaker 3: There's some structural advantages with the traditional media, but it 375 00:25:20,839 --> 00:25:25,480 is a real crisis because I think they believed, you know, 376 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,880 if we guide our audience sort of away from Trump. 377 00:25:30,839 --> 00:25:33,720 I think they weren't really they didn't necessarily care where 378 00:25:33,759 --> 00:25:37,400 the audience landed as long as it wasn't there. You 379 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,839 know that if we can accomplish that, that shows, you know, 380 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,880 the media has some sway, some influence with the electorate, 381 00:25:46,839 --> 00:25:48,880 and it didn't work. 382 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,759 Speaker 2: And people don't really either. 383 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 3: Their their audience is way smaller than they thought it was, 384 00:25:55,079 --> 00:25:59,119 which I think is probably true if you just look 385 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,720 at sort of you know, how many listeners does the 386 00:26:02,799 --> 00:26:06,480 average Sharrogan episode have versus you know, how many people 387 00:26:06,519 --> 00:26:08,119 watch CNN prime time. 388 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 2: It's it's a pretty stark difference. 389 00:26:11,559 --> 00:26:14,759 Speaker 3: And so I think, you you know, their their audience 390 00:26:14,759 --> 00:26:18,759 is much smaller than they thought. And then I think 391 00:26:18,759 --> 00:26:21,400 the other thing is that they're less influential. 392 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 2: Than they think they are. And so I think the 393 00:26:28,319 --> 00:26:34,400 question is are we sort of, you know, are is 394 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:38,440 the media supposed to guide its audience. 395 00:26:38,559 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 3: Do they have this captive audience that they can sort 396 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,640 of take on a journey sort of where they want 397 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,079 them to go, or do we have to go out 398 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,880 and earn an audience and earn our influence and have them, 399 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,119 you know, win their trust so this audience will listen 400 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,519 and read and watch us. And I think that the 401 00:26:59,599 --> 00:27:01,640 media is found itself in the position where they have 402 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,279 to go and earn their audience, and that's a pretty 403 00:27:05,279 --> 00:27:11,000 hard thing to do. Some outlets have done better at this. 404 00:27:12,039 --> 00:27:15,440 The New York Times has a big subscriber base. A 405 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,839 lot of it's for games and recipes, and that's really 406 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:22,880 what makes a lot of money there. But they have 407 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:29,039 subscribers that really, you know, fuel their business. 408 00:27:29,079 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 2: They don't really have to go out and you know. 409 00:27:31,799 --> 00:27:36,039 Speaker 3: Change their their presentation of the news or their opinion 410 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,079 page in order to keep that audience that makes them profitable. 411 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,359 That doesn't mean they don't have internal issues with like 412 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,519 the people who work on their their tech side that 413 00:27:45,559 --> 00:27:49,480 fuels the recipes and the games, who are on stripe 414 00:27:49,519 --> 00:27:53,720 right now, asking for lots of kind of crazy things 415 00:27:54,279 --> 00:27:58,279 in their union contract. But at least like the Washington Post, 416 00:27:58,319 --> 00:28:00,720 I think, really I have to face up to the 417 00:28:00,799 --> 00:28:03,000 situation at their end, which is that they have to 418 00:28:03,039 --> 00:28:06,480 go back out and try to win an audience's trust 419 00:28:06,599 --> 00:28:09,680 and to get subscribers back, and that means that, you know, 420 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,839 their newsroom, their opinion page, their reporting is just going 421 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,920 to have to look very different than it has you know, 422 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,359 the past war to ten years. And that's a pretty 423 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,200 hard thing to pull off. You know, I don't know 424 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,079 if they'll be able to. I don't know if they'll 425 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,240 really be able to fully commit to. 426 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 2: Trying to do that. 427 00:28:28,319 --> 00:28:30,599 Speaker 3: And so in that case, I think that's where the 428 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:35,119 mainstream media is kind of has a pretty big problem 429 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,279 that they may not be able to fix. 430 00:28:38,359 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: I think the reaction from the Washington Post newsroom to 431 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:49,480 the decision from Jeff Bezos not to endorse a presidential 432 00:28:49,519 --> 00:28:53,279 candidate this cycle, I think that tells you just the 433 00:28:54,039 --> 00:28:57,599 kind of problems that the Washington Post will have in 434 00:28:57,799 --> 00:29:03,480 fixing the the internal bias that they have. But it 435 00:29:03,519 --> 00:29:07,200 seems to me pretty clear that the Jeff Bezos marching 436 00:29:07,359 --> 00:29:10,720 order is they're going to have to do that. Time 437 00:29:10,759 --> 00:29:14,200 will tell One of the interesting exit polling notes that 438 00:29:14,279 --> 00:29:15,799 I see here, and I want to get your take 439 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:21,559 on this, because we're talking about activist journalism and the 440 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,880 influence that wasn't it seems to me one of the 441 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:30,160 exit polls shows that this whole issue of threat to 442 00:29:30,319 --> 00:29:34,160 democracy that the Harris Walls campaign kept pitching and a 443 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,839 lot of members of the media kept reporting on and 444 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:44,759 echoing that that was an issue. But I shouldn't say 445 00:29:44,759 --> 00:29:47,480 a majority, but a number of voters came out of 446 00:29:47,519 --> 00:29:50,880 those polls and said, yes, it was an issue. Democracy 447 00:29:51,279 --> 00:29:56,680 has been threatened by how this current regime has treated 448 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:02,359 its number one opponent, it's number one political enemy. What 449 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,079 does that say about the state of American journalism and 450 00:30:05,079 --> 00:30:06,400 where Americans are today? 451 00:30:08,079 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean I remember taking a class in college 452 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:15,519 on Latin American politics, and what the professor said in 453 00:30:15,519 --> 00:30:18,799 that class was, you know, in these Latin American countries, 454 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:24,599 when there's sort of a populist figure who becomes you know, 455 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:31,160 their president or leader in parliament or whatever, they the 456 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,519 opposition tends to mobilize and break lots of norms to 457 00:30:35,599 --> 00:30:38,960 try to stop that figure and often in doing that, 458 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,880 they create sort of the spiral away from the institutions, 459 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,640 and you know, constitutions often that that they have that 460 00:30:47,759 --> 00:30:50,839 leads to something like like a Jabez or someone like 461 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:55,720 that ending up in charge. And it struck me that 462 00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:01,759 that cycle of sort of the opposition being willing to 463 00:31:01,839 --> 00:31:05,480 break lots of norms in order to stop a political 464 00:31:05,519 --> 00:31:10,519 figure who the people have elected has happened here too, 465 00:31:10,599 --> 00:31:13,839 and so I think that's Apple just kind of reflects that. 466 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,640 I mean, one of the election live streams I saw 467 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,839 there was a Paris supporter who was saying, you know, 468 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,240 maybe we should have went harder, and we should have 469 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,799 packed the court, and we should have you know, made 470 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,000 DC estate and done all these unpopular things. 471 00:31:29,039 --> 00:31:32,559 Speaker 2: But Lisa would have stopped Trump. And I don't think 472 00:31:32,599 --> 00:31:33,400 that actually would. 473 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:39,079 Speaker 3: Have stopped Trump, but but just sort of not being 474 00:31:39,119 --> 00:31:45,119 willing to commit to political norms, conserving institutions, stuff that 475 00:31:45,319 --> 00:31:47,759 I think a lot of people on the left. 476 00:31:47,519 --> 00:31:51,759 Speaker 2: Say that they support. They throw out the window, and 477 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,000 I think that is why those poll numbers look like that. 478 00:31:56,119 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: Okay, so this is where your work your institution really 479 00:31:59,519 --> 00:32:02,440 intersect and you have your work cut out for you. 480 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,279 I got to tell you. I say that because I 481 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:11,240 have led newsrooms, small newsrooms, bureaus in my time, and 482 00:32:11,319 --> 00:32:15,720 I see some of the product, if you will, coming 483 00:32:15,759 --> 00:32:22,400 out of American jay schools, journalisms schools. You know they're 484 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:30,599 coming out with, you know, basic problems, writing, reporting, deficiencies 485 00:32:30,799 --> 00:32:36,960 therein in some cases because of how they've been raised 486 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,039 on the technology to begin with and how they communicate 487 00:32:41,119 --> 00:32:46,119 on those technologies. But the bigger problem is the kind 488 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:51,480 of biases coming out of these journalism schools, and that, 489 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,640 as you mentioned before, we have we don't have a 490 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,279 lot of the kind of veterans that we had left 491 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,400 in a lot of the newsrooms across the country because 492 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,759 they're expensive and quite frankly, they don't always agree with 493 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,880 the corporate line that's going on and how to approach journalism. 494 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,720 As we transition into fall and our schedules get busier, 495 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,440 tighter work deadlines, as we approach the end of the 496 00:33:18,519 --> 00:33:21,960 year or the start of holiday preparations, it's easy to 497 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:26,000 forget about taking care of ourselves during this busy season. 498 00:33:26,079 --> 00:33:29,279 One simple but effective thing you can do for yourself 499 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:34,359 start taking nutrifol. 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You're 515 00:34:35,679 --> 00:34:40,320 getting young journalists who are pre programmed, prepackaged in a 516 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,960 lot of cases, what do we expect that we're going 517 00:34:45,079 --> 00:34:49,400 to get from coverage of politics and policy in America? 518 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:52,840 Speaker 2: Well, I think a great place. 519 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 3: Newserms want to change to stop hiring people from journalism 520 00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:01,559 schools because there's really not a lot of right, uh 521 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,719 up and coming talent coming out of those schools. You 522 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,239 hear people go to journalism school, I actually really don't 523 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,239 understand why people go to journalism school. 524 00:35:12,119 --> 00:35:12,599 Speaker 2: Report it. 525 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't either, I didn't I know people who 526 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,639 have gotten master's degrees in journalism. You want to talk 527 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,679 about a waste of money and done. From my point, 528 00:35:23,679 --> 00:35:26,800 my humble point of view, the best way to be 529 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:31,000 a journalist is to be a journalist is to journal, 530 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:35,559 is to report. That's how I came out of journalism. 531 00:35:35,599 --> 00:35:37,440 And I know that's not the path for a lot 532 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,199 of people. And I think there are some people journalists 533 00:35:40,199 --> 00:35:42,559 who would be listening to my comments that went to 534 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,119 the journalism schools and well, that's not that's not fair, 535 00:35:45,199 --> 00:35:47,920 that's not right. That's just I guess that's my bias 536 00:35:48,039 --> 00:35:50,119 going into it. But I see a lot of problems 537 00:35:50,159 --> 00:35:51,480 in these these jay schools. 538 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,039 Speaker 2: Well there's there are a lot of problems. 539 00:35:54,039 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 3: And I think, really, but you know, the New York 540 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,840 Times and you know the Washington Posts and others hire 541 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,159 a lot of people out of j school, and so 542 00:36:05,679 --> 00:36:08,719 that's the population that they're bringing in. And often I 543 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:09,719 think the problem with. 544 00:36:10,119 --> 00:36:14,519 Speaker 2: Journalism school students is that they don't know much about anything. 545 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:21,280 Speaker 3: They didn't study you know, economics or politics or you know, 546 00:36:21,559 --> 00:36:24,000 any kind of useful subject. 547 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 2: At an undergrad or graduate level. 548 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 3: And you know, the sort of journalism faculty bias is 549 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:34,880 sort of one of the worst departments at schools around 550 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:35,320 the country. 551 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 2: You know, there's almost no right of center faculty. 552 00:36:38,599 --> 00:36:42,280 Speaker 3: Maybe some older school more objective type faculty, but again 553 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,519 they're aging out every year, and so it's really not 554 00:36:46,599 --> 00:36:50,719 a great environment to develop journalism talent. And the other 555 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:56,639 thing I'll say about grad students for journalism is that 556 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,360 often I'll just say, if you're a very good writer 557 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:03,480 and you're very good reporter, there's a great job market 558 00:37:03,559 --> 00:37:05,800 for you, because there's not that many great writers and 559 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,440 great reporters out there. And so if you're going to 560 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:13,320 grad school because you can't find a position, maybe you're 561 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:14,239 it's not what you're. 562 00:37:14,119 --> 00:37:14,639 Speaker 2: Meant to do. 563 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 3: You know, maybe you you know you're not as great 564 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,280 of a writer or reporter as you think you. 565 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,320 Speaker 2: Are, and that's that's a hard thing for some people 566 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:23,000 to accept. 567 00:37:23,079 --> 00:37:25,320 Speaker 3: But you know, it's it sort of goes back to 568 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,280 the old adage, you know, if you cannot do, teach, 569 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,440 and I think you know, if you cannot do go 570 00:37:29,519 --> 00:37:30,199 to grad school. 571 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,079 Speaker 2: Is kind of a similar thing in the media. 572 00:37:34,199 --> 00:37:38,039 Speaker 3: But with the students that we work with on college campuses, 573 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,559 they are almost very very few of them actually major 574 00:37:44,559 --> 00:37:50,599 in journalism. Most of them are majoring in politics, economics, philosophy, history, 575 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,679 kind of real topics. And you know, these are you know, 576 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,519 writer of center students. Some are moderate students who we 577 00:37:59,599 --> 00:38:02,519 work with a lot of do A students on campuses 578 00:38:02,559 --> 00:38:05,280 who have been on a bit of a political journey 579 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:10,199 the past you know, year or so, and so, you know, 580 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,280 we work with these students. 581 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 2: And they are they are very great writers. 582 00:38:16,679 --> 00:38:18,039 Speaker 3: You know, we do have to teach them how to 583 00:38:18,039 --> 00:38:20,519 do the reporting part, but we can do that in 584 00:38:20,559 --> 00:38:22,719 a few hours and then send them out to practice. 585 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 2: And you don't need to go to grad school for that. 586 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 1: That's the thing. You can teach reporting. You can definitely 587 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,159 teach reporting. It's it's a lot more difficult to teach writing, 588 00:38:32,159 --> 00:38:35,280 and natural ability in writing is just something you can 589 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:40,000 never teach. And you kind of answered what my next 590 00:38:40,079 --> 00:38:45,840 question was going to be what is JFAZ you know, 591 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:51,840 what is the Center for Excellence in Journalism doing two? 592 00:38:52,679 --> 00:38:57,159 I guess, And it sounds like you're not trying. You're 593 00:38:57,199 --> 00:39:00,159 not working with the students where you would have have 594 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:04,280 to correct all of these deep biases that are being 595 00:39:04,639 --> 00:39:11,559 inculcated by very left wing biased professors and faculty. On 596 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:16,800 university campuses, you're actually working with people who are trying 597 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:22,360 to get real world experiences in other disciplines and then 598 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:24,079 teach them how to be journalists. 599 00:39:25,599 --> 00:39:26,159 Speaker 2: That's right. 600 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,559 Speaker 3: So on college campuses, we you know, we work with 601 00:39:29,599 --> 00:39:30,559 a lot of students. 602 00:39:31,639 --> 00:39:33,519 Speaker 2: We don't have a political litmus test. 603 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:38,639 Speaker 3: I think what you're saying about sort of not being biased, 604 00:39:39,599 --> 00:39:42,639 being curious, being open to learning new things. I think 605 00:39:42,639 --> 00:39:45,599 a lot of college students, especially on the sort of 606 00:39:46,159 --> 00:39:49,880 Ivy League, elite liberal arts college campuses that that we 607 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,719 work on. If you're a young, curious person who lands 608 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,199 on one of those campuses, you know you tend to 609 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:00,440 go on a political journey over the orse of your 610 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:02,760 four years. So we're sort of working with a lot 611 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,400 of students who I think are on. 612 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,920 Speaker 2: That app And yeah, we don't tend not to work 613 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:10,920 with journalism students. 614 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,760 Speaker 3: But what we do is we support sort of right 615 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,639 of center alternative student publications at these college campuses that 616 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:22,400 give these students who may not be focusing their academic 617 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:27,159 work on journalism and opportunity to do reporting on campus, 618 00:40:27,199 --> 00:40:31,400 to learn how to improve the writing and to sort 619 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,000 of get their feet wet in what it means to 620 00:40:34,079 --> 00:40:37,440 be a journalist. And so we have twenty one of 621 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:43,320 those student publications on sort of elite college campuses around 622 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:43,880 the country. 623 00:40:44,599 --> 00:40:46,679 Speaker 2: We're at i think every Ivy League. 624 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:52,119 Speaker 3: School but Brown, many NESCAC schools now, and so we're 625 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:58,360 sort of on enemy territory in general. But the students there, 626 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,199 I think really make a difference. And I think the 627 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,199 fact is when you're looking at you know, who works 628 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:09,079 in the media and trying to change some of those variables, 629 00:41:10,639 --> 00:41:12,800 I think you can only change so many at a time. 630 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,960 So a lot of the focus on elite schools as 631 00:41:16,039 --> 00:41:18,800 while they hire students from these schools all the time anyway, 632 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,159 so maybe we can get them to look at some 633 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,360 alternatives as opposed to, you know, trying to get them 634 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,719 to hire from a completely different kind of school. 635 00:41:29,159 --> 00:41:31,400 Speaker 1: I think that's more important than ever and I think 636 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,320 you will I hope you will be busier than ever 637 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:39,000 moving forward as some real actual soul searching goes on 638 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:44,920 in these newsrooms across the country. You know, the basic 639 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:50,400 job of journalism should be to report, to tell news 640 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:56,920 consumers what's going on in their communities, in their countries 641 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:02,320 around the world, whatever the discipline. It should be also 642 00:42:02,679 --> 00:42:08,639 to call bs. And the problem with American journalism has 643 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,679 been because it's been really focused on calling what it 644 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:18,079 believes to be bs on one side and absolutely refusing 645 00:42:18,159 --> 00:42:23,000 to do so on another. Can that Will that ultimately 646 00:42:23,039 --> 00:42:23,760 be fixed? 647 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:29,039 Speaker 3: I hope so, I mean, I you know, going back 648 00:42:29,039 --> 00:42:32,840 to the Washington Post example, when they hired their new publisher, 649 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,320 Will Lewis, they had a big meeting and he came 650 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:40,360 in and they were sort of all upset because Lewis 651 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:45,599 had worked at Murdoch owned media properties in the UK 652 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:50,519 and US, and so of course Washing Post newsroom was 653 00:42:50,559 --> 00:42:54,440 not a fan of that. But he leveled with them 654 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:56,800 and just said, you know, we're losing you know, tens 655 00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,440 of millions of dollars a year, and our audience is 656 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,199 down fifty percent and something has to change. 657 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,239 Speaker 2: And so my hope. 658 00:43:04,199 --> 00:43:08,800 Speaker 3: Is that you know, a news publications across the country. 659 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,199 They take a hard look at that and you know, 660 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:15,280 try to adjust their coverage and their newsroom and their 661 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,840 news judgment, so you know, they will, you know, try 662 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,239 to be more of a fair referee than they have been. 663 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:26,480 Speaker 2: That's kind of a hard thing to see happening, or 664 00:43:26,519 --> 00:43:28,880 at least to the extent maybe of a need to happen. 665 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:34,599 Speaker 3: And I'm hopeful though that you know, new institutions can 666 00:43:34,639 --> 00:43:37,400 get built, both you know, on a local scale and 667 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:42,000 a national scale that can really take advantage of new 668 00:43:42,039 --> 00:43:47,119 media trends and sort of gain a real audience in following. 669 00:43:46,679 --> 00:43:48,639 Speaker 2: That the mainstream media has lost. 670 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,679 Speaker 1: I hope so, I hope so. But the work that 671 00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,239 you folks are doing, I think will give us some hope, 672 00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,480 some promise on that front. Thanks to my guest today, 673 00:43:59,639 --> 00:44:03,840 Ryan Wolf, director of the Center for Excellence in Journalism 674 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:09,199 at the Fund for American Studies. Appreciate very much your time. 675 00:44:09,079 --> 00:44:11,920 Speaker 2: Today, sir, Thanks so much forravity. 676 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,760 Speaker 1: You've been listening to another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. 677 00:44:15,159 --> 00:44:18,639 I'm Matt Kittle, senior correspondent at The Federalist. We'll be 678 00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:22,960 back soon with more. Until then, stay lovers of freedom 679 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:37,239 and anxious for the fray