WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.759 --> 00:00:07.879 Hey, folks, welcome back to another episode of the Ruby 2 00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:13.439 Rogues podcast. This week on our panel we have a Yushnwatya. 3 00:00:13.480 --> 00:00:13.759 Hello. 4 00:00:14.800 --> 00:00:17.559 I'm Charles Maxwett from Top End Devs and this week 5 00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:21.039 we have a special guest. It is Joe Mazzlati. Joe, 6 00:00:21.160 --> 00:00:25.359 Welcome to the show. Hello, how are you doing all right? 7 00:00:25.399 --> 00:00:28.440 I think we had you a while back talking about 8 00:00:29.039 --> 00:00:34.640 then Turbo Native now hot Wire Native. But yeah, what's new? 9 00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:40.560 Yeah, So I am writing a book on hot Wire 10 00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:45.280 Native and it is coming very close to it being 11 00:00:45.320 --> 00:00:48.399 completely done. So getting the word out talking about hot 12 00:00:48.439 --> 00:00:52.719 Wire Native and just getting more and more rails developers 13 00:00:52.759 --> 00:00:55.320 to use it. It's been it's been a fun couple 14 00:00:55.439 --> 00:00:56.520 months for sure. 15 00:00:57.039 --> 00:00:59.000 All Right. The book is out right. 16 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:01.719 Yeah, So the book is out. You can buy it 17 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:06.480 digital only right now as we finish up the last chapter, 18 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:10.200 and then when it comes out you know, final version, 19 00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:13.519 you can start ordering the physical copies and like get 20 00:01:13.519 --> 00:01:15.560 it at your bookstore and stuff. But if you buy 21 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:17.480 it now, you get a discount and then you get 22 00:01:17.480 --> 00:01:20.200 an update email every two weeks with like the new 23 00:01:20.239 --> 00:01:22.719 features and everything that have been added to the book. 24 00:01:23.239 --> 00:01:25.840 So if you're only going digital, it makes sense to 25 00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:27.439 buy it now for the discount, but if you want 26 00:01:27.480 --> 00:01:29.519 to wait for physical, wait till you know, a few 27 00:01:29.519 --> 00:01:31.599 more months, right. 28 00:01:31.439 --> 00:01:35.079 And that's shows it only available on the Pragmatic Bookshelf. 29 00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:38.319 Yeah then yeah, it's only available directly from my publisher. 30 00:01:39.840 --> 00:01:42.120 Awesome. And those guys are amazing. I love those guys. 31 00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:45.040 It has been such a pleasure working with them. Oh 32 00:01:45.079 --> 00:01:48.480 my god. I even just from like the initial calls 33 00:01:48.519 --> 00:01:50.519 with them, I had such a good feeling about them 34 00:01:50.519 --> 00:01:53.400 as a publisher versus everyone else I spoke to and 35 00:01:54.000 --> 00:01:56.719 ooof looking back on it, so glad I went with 36 00:01:56.760 --> 00:02:00.599 a publisher instead of self publishing, because I probably would 37 00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:05.239 have given up now, to be honest, Yeah what I'm 38 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:05.760 talking about. 39 00:02:06.239 --> 00:02:08.560 Oh yeah, that was one of the questions I was 40 00:02:08.560 --> 00:02:10.800 going to dig into. His publisher was and no publisher? 41 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:12.039 We got to be a bit later on. 42 00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:15.240 Yeah, for sure, we could just do it now. I 43 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:17.280 was going to say, I mean, I've self published a book. 44 00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:22.080 I know, I used self published a book. I've talked 45 00:02:22.080 --> 00:02:25.520 to the guys at Pragmatic Bookshelf before, but I've never 46 00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:28.360 actually gone all the way to hey, maybe we should 47 00:02:28.840 --> 00:02:31.560 do a book together. But I know a lot of 48 00:02:31.560 --> 00:02:33.199 folks over there. I don't know who you're working with, 49 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:38.000 but over there as your editor and stuff. But yeah, 50 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:41.520 it's way back in the day. Ruby Roges was going 51 00:02:41.560 --> 00:02:45.560 to write a book and we were talking to Pearson. 52 00:02:45.879 --> 00:02:50.080 O'Reilly kind of folks. And the reason was was because 53 00:02:50.080 --> 00:02:53.800 we were gonna piggyback on small Talk best practice patterns 54 00:02:53.800 --> 00:02:56.639 to write Ruby best Practice patterns. And so since we 55 00:02:56.680 --> 00:03:02.879 were kind of stealing the book a little bit, you know, 56 00:03:03.159 --> 00:03:06.240 we figured we'd have less legal trouble. But there were 57 00:03:06.639 --> 00:03:08.479 six of us at the time, and they wanted to 58 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:13.520 give us like a ten or fifteen percent royalty to 59 00:03:13.560 --> 00:03:15.680 splut am on the six of us, and we were 60 00:03:15.719 --> 00:03:17.560 just we we kind of did all the looking and 61 00:03:17.599 --> 00:03:21.520 feeling and everything, and I mean they they had a 62 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:25.120 clamp down ownership blah blah blah blah blah, and the 63 00:03:25.240 --> 00:03:28.120 royalty was awful. And then I talked to people who 64 00:03:28.120 --> 00:03:32.599 have published through Pragmatic Bookshelf and they they're like, oh, 65 00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:36.280 these guys are a dream, and you know, they're totally 66 00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:39.039 willing to work with you. As far as like ownership rights, 67 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:40.759 I know some people have let them own it and 68 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:44.039 other people have kept ownership I've seen it work both ways. 69 00:03:44.280 --> 00:03:47.840 They've also published books like Abdy Grimm's Exceptional Ruby. He 70 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:50.639 self published it and then they picked it up, and so, 71 00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:52.639 you know, and so they're totally willing to play ball. 72 00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:55.800 And they're everybody that I've talked to. The royalty rates 73 00:03:55.840 --> 00:03:56.919 like forty or fifty percent. 74 00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:01.479 Yeah, yeah, exactly, and we could talk about it more. 75 00:04:01.479 --> 00:04:04.080 But like if they were giving me zero percent royalties, 76 00:04:04.120 --> 00:04:06.840 I still would have went with them. Oh really, yeah, 77 00:04:06.919 --> 00:04:11.360 the the uh perhaps a little you know, insider knowledge here. 78 00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:14.400 I am not planning on making money off of the book. 79 00:04:15.319 --> 00:04:17.439 It's not my goal to make money like I you know, 80 00:04:17.480 --> 00:04:19.800 I do the I did the math on it. However, 81 00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:21.920 many rails developers there are in the world, However, many 82 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:24.160 of those are going to do mobile apps. It's still 83 00:04:24.199 --> 00:04:27.560 a relatively niche topic. Right Maybe that changes in a 84 00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:30.959 few years and I'm singing a different tune. But right now, 85 00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:37.920 if I can get one or like two high ticket 86 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:42.000 clients for my consulting business from this book, it will 87 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:44.199 pay for itself, like all the work that I put 88 00:04:44.199 --> 00:04:46.199 into it. Like that's all I need is to land 89 00:04:46.199 --> 00:04:50.399 two big clients. And that's my kind of marketing plan 90 00:04:50.480 --> 00:04:52.160 with all of it, Like when I go to conferences, 91 00:04:52.279 --> 00:04:55.120 I am checking a suitcase full of books to bring 92 00:04:55.160 --> 00:04:58.759 with me to just throw into the crowd. Essentially, you know, 93 00:04:58.839 --> 00:05:00.399 like I want to get this thing to as many 94 00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:05.639 people as possible. So having a publisher that supports really 95 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:09.439 good distribution and getting into local bookstores and kick ass 96 00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:13.839 editor like it worked. It works so well. The forty 97 00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:16.600 fifty royalties is kind of just a bonus to me. 98 00:05:18.120 --> 00:05:21.079 Yeah, it's it's interesting that you bring that up, because 99 00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:23.120 it seems like the only people I really see make 100 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:26.920 any kind of real money on books are essentially celebrities, right, 101 00:05:27.079 --> 00:05:30.560 so you hear that, like Michelle Obama got a gazillion 102 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:33.720 dollar and it wasn't royalties, It was an advance on 103 00:05:33.879 --> 00:05:39.079 royalties for the book, and it was because the publishing 104 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:40.759 house knew they could sell a whole bunch of those 105 00:05:40.759 --> 00:05:45.759 books and they liked her, and so they figured it out. Whereas, yeah, 106 00:05:45.879 --> 00:05:48.639 you know, for us, we're in a small niche, and 107 00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:51.639 in your case, it's a small niche of a small niche, 108 00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:54.680 and so yeah, you know you're you're doing it for 109 00:05:54.800 --> 00:05:57.240 reputational and other reasons that make a lot of sense. 110 00:05:57.720 --> 00:06:02.480 Exactly it's not going to be a New York Times bestseller, 111 00:06:02.480 --> 00:06:03.199 and I'm okay with that. 112 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:05.439 I'm disappointed it should be. 113 00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:09.279 I mean, never wild if it was. But I don't. 114 00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:11.040 I don't see that happening anytime soon. 115 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:13.600 Everybody's doing hot Wire Native these days. 116 00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:18.680 Hopefully, you know, the broader New York Times audience is 117 00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:20.959 also doing hot Wire Native and they'll understand what I'm 118 00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:24.199 talking about. But maybe the second edition. 119 00:06:25.279 --> 00:06:27.759 Yeah, well, you know, we are in the rails renaissance, 120 00:06:27.800 --> 00:06:31.600 is what I'm hearing. So but but but let's let's 121 00:06:31.639 --> 00:06:33.439 move in and talk about hot Wire Native, because I 122 00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:37.519 think that's probably where most people want to want to 123 00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:40.279 hear about. I think I think the book Insider Baseball 124 00:06:40.759 --> 00:06:42.399 is helpful for the people who may want to write 125 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:45.360 a book or you know, maybe they're like, oh, this 126 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:47.519 publisher does a good job on these things and takes 127 00:06:47.560 --> 00:06:49.120 good care of their authors, and so I want to 128 00:06:49.160 --> 00:06:52.000 support them. But yeah, let's let's dive in. So hot 129 00:06:52.040 --> 00:06:55.800 Wire Native. We've already done a show on Turbo Native, 130 00:06:56.000 --> 00:06:59.600 and I don't think the overall thing that it does 131 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:01.800 is change, So just give us a real quick overview 132 00:07:01.839 --> 00:07:03.720 on that, and then what I'd like to do is 133 00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:07.000 get into what's changed. Sure if that makes sense. 134 00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:12.959 Yeah. So hot Wire Native takes your mobile website and 135 00:07:13.399 --> 00:07:16.079 shoves it inside of an app that you download from 136 00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:20.839 the App Store or Google Play. So your app itself, 137 00:07:20.959 --> 00:07:24.199 the code is essentially a web browser that has you know, 138 00:07:24.199 --> 00:07:28.600 maybe a native tab bar, native navigation, push onification, stuff 139 00:07:28.639 --> 00:07:32.240 like that, but the majority of the content is a 140 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:36.759 WebView hitting your server, probably your Rails server, and rendering 141 00:07:36.759 --> 00:07:42.079 your HTML, CSS and JavaScript. And what it gives you 142 00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:45.959 is like almost full feature parody with your Rails app 143 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:49.560 with just a few lines of native code. And once 144 00:07:49.600 --> 00:07:52.399 you submit to the app stores, you can continue to 145 00:07:52.439 --> 00:07:54.879 add new features to your Rails app, and because the 146 00:07:55.079 --> 00:07:58.040 native clients are just hitting your server, they get those 147 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:00.959 features essentially for free as long as there is a 148 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:06.519 link to that new feature on an existing page. That's 149 00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:11.279 been the story for a decade since, like turbolinks, native 150 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:15.360 was around, and there's also opportunity to dive down into 151 00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:19.199 native APIs. It's different than like React Native, where it's 152 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:21.920 taking over the entire app and you have to write 153 00:08:21.920 --> 00:08:26.160 React native. Hot Wire Native sits next to iOS or Android, 154 00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:28.959 and when you want to drop down to you know, 155 00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:33.120 Pushmification API or the Haptics feedback or health Kit. You 156 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:35.399 just write that code and then send some data back 157 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:38.000 to your server or back to the WebView. There's no 158 00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:42.919 health Kit plugin for hot Wire Native. You just write 159 00:08:42.919 --> 00:08:46.399 health Kit code, so to speak, right, And I think, yeah, 160 00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:48.600 it's a little bit like, oh, go ahead. 161 00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:50.759 I think one key point that also needs to be 162 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:54.279 made is its separate code basis for iOS and Android, 163 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:58.440 which I'm a huge fan of because I don't believe 164 00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:01.879 the one code based across money platform thing has ever worked. 165 00:09:02.279 --> 00:09:03.919 So I really like the fact that you have to 166 00:09:04.039 --> 00:09:09.799 separate code bases which kind of share this common engine 167 00:09:10.039 --> 00:09:11.000 off the rails app. 168 00:09:13.159 --> 00:09:14.679 Yeah, I'll say I have done. 169 00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:18.799 The two code bases are essentially rappers, right Like there's 170 00:09:19.399 --> 00:09:22.960 until you go into real native implementations of things. The codes, 171 00:09:23.559 --> 00:09:28.159 the code length in the native apps is relatively minimal. 172 00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:33.000 Yeah, I've done some Turbo or no, not turbinative. I've 173 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:39.240 done some React Native, and I mean they tried to 174 00:09:39.399 --> 00:09:42.000 sell you on the one code base for everything, but 175 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:48.039 I think eventually they just had to acknowledge that sometimes 176 00:09:48.039 --> 00:09:49.919 you're just going to have to deviate and have this 177 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:53.919 for this and that for that, but yeah, it's it's 178 00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:57.399 like a full takeover on the javascripture, building the interface 179 00:09:57.399 --> 00:10:00.799 in the whole nine yards and what I've seen and 180 00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:04.279 done with something like hot wired Native. The nice thing 181 00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:06.320 is is I can keep the same look and feel 182 00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:08.399 if I want people to have the same experience on 183 00:10:08.440 --> 00:10:12.399 the web and on the app. Or I've also seen 184 00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:14.360 it where people tend, you know, they they kind of 185 00:10:14.399 --> 00:10:16.600 pick up a style sheet and kind of figure it 186 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:19.279 out so that it looks more native. If you're in 187 00:10:19.320 --> 00:10:21.759 the app, m you get you get a lot of 188 00:10:21.799 --> 00:10:25.600 mileage out of it that way, Yeah, you get a lot. 189 00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:29.840 And one of the big recommendations I have is to 190 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:34.159 continue using your web design in the apps. Like if 191 00:10:34.159 --> 00:10:39.720 you're trying to chase iOS specific iOS Native UI and 192 00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:43.960 Android Native UI, you're always just playing catch up. So 193 00:10:44.399 --> 00:10:47.320 doing your continuing your you know, your tailwin CSS or 194 00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:51.639 your Twitter bootstrap, you know styling on the mobile apps 195 00:10:51.799 --> 00:10:55.080 is usually the best approach because you just have too 196 00:10:55.399 --> 00:10:58.480 fewer things to worry about. It's like you have your 197 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:01.639 Web UI and you that works on your native and 198 00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:03.960 then maybe you show or hide some content that doesn't 199 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:06.000 make sense on the native apps, like your you know, 200 00:11:06.639 --> 00:11:09.000 Hamburger menu or whatever. That doesn't make sense in a 201 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:11.759 mobile context because you have a tab bar. But for 202 00:11:11.799 --> 00:11:14.440 the most part, you're just like rendering the same stuff 203 00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:15.440 styled the same way. 204 00:11:16.519 --> 00:11:22.120 Yeah, so what's new, I mean besides the name change. 205 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:24.240 You know, what are we looking at here? 206 00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:28.519 Yeah? So Turbo Native became hot wire Native a few 207 00:11:28.519 --> 00:11:33.759 months ago, and the big change is that it now 208 00:11:33.879 --> 00:11:39.159 encompasses what used to be called Strata. Strata is or 209 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:44.039 was the library formerly known as Strata is the way 210 00:11:44.039 --> 00:11:47.480 to communicate to your webue through JavaScript. It's how you 211 00:11:47.480 --> 00:11:49.960 can add It's kind of like stimulus for mobile apps. 212 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:53.639 You add native sprinkles to your apps. You add a 213 00:11:53.679 --> 00:11:55.679 button in the top right or the top left. You 214 00:11:55.759 --> 00:12:00.559 add an interaction with the push notification API. And Strata 215 00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:04.879 worked with sending Jason back and forth between the native 216 00:12:04.919 --> 00:12:08.399 code and the WebView, but it required like one hundred 217 00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:10.360 and fifty lines of code to just integrate into your 218 00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:14.000 library because you had to subclass something and pass along messages. 219 00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:18.519 Now Strata is part of hot wire Native and has 220 00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:22.039 just been renamed like Bridge components lowercase you know, B, 221 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:24.600 not a capital S for Strata. They're just a part 222 00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:27.399 of hot Wire Native now, and what that means is 223 00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:30.679 that when you use these bridge components, you just use them. 224 00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:32.840 You don't have to worry about like a whole installation step. 225 00:12:32.840 --> 00:12:36.200 They're already bundled. That's probably the biggest one. That's for 226 00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:40.279 probably more not more experienced hot Wire Native developers, but 227 00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:44.039 more advanced apps. The most relevant change for people that 228 00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:47.679 have never used it is that the time to market, 229 00:12:47.759 --> 00:12:50.919 Like from starting a new hot Wire native iOS app 230 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:53.759 to running it in the emulator or the simulator went 231 00:12:53.799 --> 00:12:57.039 from forty five lines of code to like twelve lines 232 00:12:57.080 --> 00:13:00.759 of code to get something running. And Android went from 233 00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:05.639 I think like seventy eighty to like twenty five thirty five. 234 00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:09.000 And those are the things that we're really looking forward 235 00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:11.559 to as making those even fewer. Is just like how 236 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:14.960 quickly can we get from brand new excodeor Android studio 237 00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:18.960 project to content rendering on the screen in a mobile 238 00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:23.240 simulator emulator. And we've made some really big progress with 239 00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:26.879 that by just making a lot of assumptions and letting people, 240 00:13:27.320 --> 00:13:31.120 you know, giving people some of the higher level abstractions 241 00:13:31.159 --> 00:13:32.960 than we used to give them with turbonative. 242 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:37.080 That makes sense. I have to say, there's this really 243 00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:38.639 terrific book out there. I don't know if you all 244 00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:41.360 have heard of it. It's called The Rails and hot 245 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:44.240 Wire Code X and I was going through some steps 246 00:13:44.279 --> 00:13:50.279 in that for Turbonative at the time. And yeah, a 247 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:52.759 lot of this stuff that you're talking about, like the 248 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:57.320 extra installation step, it wasn't impossible to figure out, but 249 00:13:57.399 --> 00:14:01.200 it wasn't something that I was regularly doing. So it 250 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:03.639 felt like it took an inordinate amount of time to 251 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:06.279 figure things out when I messed them up. And so 252 00:14:06.600 --> 00:14:09.200 it sounds like there are just a lot fewer places 253 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:13.360 where Chuck can mess it up, if that makes sense. 254 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:16.799 Yeah, the way I look at it, like Turboonative, the 255 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:21.120 hot Wire Native is like equivalent on rails to writing 256 00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:24.799 a routes a route, adding a controller, and adding a view. 257 00:14:25.639 --> 00:14:28.360 Those are all wired up magically by their name. Right, 258 00:14:28.519 --> 00:14:31.080 you have a posts controller, it's going to render posts 259 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:33.759 slash index or post slash show, depending on the method 260 00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:38.240 you're in. Turbo Native required you to manually say okay, 261 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:43.279 the post, the get request to posts has to go 262 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:47.799 to the post's index controller, and the post's index controller 263 00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:50.720 has to render the post index view. Like all of 264 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:53.639 those little places that you could either fat finger or 265 00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:57.440 just like miss. That's how we love That's why we 266 00:14:57.480 --> 00:15:01.440 love rails. All of those conventions make sense. Configuration, yeah yeah, 267 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:05.320 And like the Turbo Native was way more configuration over convention, 268 00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:08.639 and now hot Wire Native is way more convention over configuration. 269 00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:10.840 I hope I got those right. You do a lot 270 00:15:10.919 --> 00:15:13.600 less code with hot Wire Native, and a lot of 271 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:16.519 it is just assumed for you. But we didn't hide 272 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:18.879 any of the APIs. They're still public. Like, if you 273 00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:21.240 still want to drop down and do all the wild 274 00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:24.039 stuff you were doing in a Turbnative app, those APIs 275 00:15:24.039 --> 00:15:27.000 are still available to you. It's just like you're, you know, 276 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:29.279 a layer below the abstraction we want you to work 277 00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:31.799 with so you have more freedom, but you also are 278 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:33.440 more responsible when something goes wrong. 279 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:36.679 I wish, how does that make you feel? With all 280 00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:38.159 the stuff you wrote in that book. 281 00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:43.519 Honestly, it not doesn't make too much of a difference 282 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:47.200 to me, because uh, like it is it's a false 283 00:15:47.240 --> 00:15:51.320 moving kind of Hey, yeah, and I knew that, and 284 00:15:51.960 --> 00:15:54.840 excuse me, and I kind of And that was the 285 00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:57.320 reason why I decided for the second edition in my book, 286 00:15:58.039 --> 00:16:01.039 I wasn't going to cover the Native stuff anymore because 287 00:16:01.159 --> 00:16:03.799 I'm I've got both my feet firmly in the website 288 00:16:03.799 --> 00:16:06.799 of things, and it was it's quite a lot to 289 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:10.320 do keeping up with all three platforms. I'm like, yeah, 290 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:13.799 not anymore. But I'm quite happy that these developments are 291 00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:18.039 happening because it makes life easier for other developers. Like 292 00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:22.639 when I was writing that the native chapters in my book, 293 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:26.200 it drove me to the edge of sanity, like it 294 00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:30.279 was like and I had done native development professionally before, 295 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:32.200 it just had been a few years. I was a 296 00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:35.759 bit rusty, like for a beginner, I can imagine the 297 00:16:35.799 --> 00:16:38.440 shut tricky that must have been. So I think removing 298 00:16:39.159 --> 00:16:41.240 all these hoops that you kind of have to jump 299 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:45.320 through is definitely a step in the right direction. And 300 00:16:46.120 --> 00:16:51.120 really happy to hear that these changes are being made. 301 00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:55.639 Yeah. So much of the old way of doing things 302 00:16:56.120 --> 00:17:00.919 was just like totally manual, like here's a link, what 303 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:02.279 do you want to do with it? There was no 304 00:17:02.440 --> 00:17:05.119 routing in place, there was no modal handling, there was 305 00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:09.599 no dismissing like here's a link, here's a WebView, like, 306 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:12.400 go for it. It was so thin around the web view, 307 00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:15.680 the wrapper that you know your book, the Codex book, 308 00:17:16.359 --> 00:17:19.319 you had to deal with session delegates and like navigating 309 00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:21.279 between screens if there's a modal and stuff, and like 310 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:24.160 all of that stuff has been abstracted into just one 311 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:27.759 line where it's like, here's an object, give it a URL, 312 00:17:28.039 --> 00:17:31.039 and it will handle everything for you automatically, as long 313 00:17:31.079 --> 00:17:33.440 as you have the path configuration set up, which we 314 00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:35.640 could dive into if you want. But that just didn't 315 00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:40.599 exist back then. And what's kind of wild is like 316 00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:45.359 it existed in Turboonative Android for quite a while, but 317 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:48.279 the iOS library just hadn't been updated in like a 318 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:51.759 year to get up to speed with this. And when 319 00:17:51.799 --> 00:17:53.720 I first learned that, I was, well, first I was 320 00:17:53.720 --> 00:17:56.079 really upset because I was writing all this iOS code 321 00:17:56.119 --> 00:17:59.319 for so many clients. And then I was like, well, 322 00:17:59.319 --> 00:18:01.160 this is also just silly, like why have we not 323 00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:03.359 gotten up to speed? And that's around the time I 324 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:08.240 started working with thirty seven Signals directly and started getting 325 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:11.559 contracted by then to bring the iOS library up to 326 00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:15.680 speed with Android. That's where the Turbo Navigator library came from. 327 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:18.720 That we then upstreamed into hot Wire Native, like all 328 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:22.160 of this development that was essentially sponsored right by them 329 00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:24.720 that I could do to bring the two libraries back 330 00:18:24.759 --> 00:18:28.799 to feature parody. And I'm still working with them, Like 331 00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:31.160 we have a really cool new demo site coming which 332 00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:33.000 I'm very excited about that's going to be written in 333 00:18:33.079 --> 00:18:36.880 Rails instead of JavaScript, so really relevant for rails developers. 334 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:40.319 But like all of that stuff took buy in from 335 00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:42.559 thirty seven signals to finally sit down and say, okay, 336 00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:46.200 we're focusing on this now. And before that it was 337 00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:48.839 just like, what is this turbo native thing? Is it 338 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:49.599 even supported? 339 00:18:49.960 --> 00:18:50.240 You know? 340 00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:53.640 And I'm trying to scream from the from the mountaintops 341 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:56.440 of yes it is. I have many, many clients running 342 00:18:56.480 --> 00:18:59.599 these apps, but it's hard when there's thirty open issues 343 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:01.880 in the last commit was six months ago. It's not 344 00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:02.599 the case anymore. 345 00:19:02.680 --> 00:19:06.400 Yeah, So speaking to that, right, speaking to kind of 346 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:09.599 keeping things up to date and stuff like that, I 347 00:19:09.640 --> 00:19:11.519 will say that one of the things I ran into 348 00:19:12.200 --> 00:19:17.000 pretty fast was that. And I think I was working 349 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:20.119 off an older version of I Use's book Codex book. 350 00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:23.039 But and I'm looking forward to this in your book 351 00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:26.000 because Pragmatic Programmers is usually pretty good, I will say, 352 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:29.880 in making sure that what's in the book is pretty 353 00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:32.119 close to up to date, but I ran into version 354 00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:35.759 issues almost right away, right, and it's like, okay, do 355 00:19:35.799 --> 00:19:38.400 you want to run the latest Android? Okay, well, you 356 00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:40.759 know the example in this book is you know, a 357 00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:45.440 version old or two versions old. And so I guess 358 00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:50.160 the question is both for the book and for the framework. 359 00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:53.000 I don't know as a framework the right term for 360 00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:54.839 hot Wire Native. I'm going to say framework. 361 00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:58.559 Yeah, framework, it's technically a library, right, but like I 362 00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:00.920 call it a framework because we're building hot Wire Native app. 363 00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:06.880 Yeah. Anyway, so how how well are they doing staying 364 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:09.599 on top of those things? Right? So when Apple releases 365 00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:12.599 a new iOS version or Android releases a new version, 366 00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:17.039 you know, yeah it is thirty seven signals or whoever's 367 00:20:17.079 --> 00:20:19.200 working on it keeping that up to date. And then 368 00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:21.880 is your book going to stay up to date? Yeah? 369 00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:27.039 So right now we're in this interesting part where Android 370 00:20:27.319 --> 00:20:31.039 SDK thirty five is like the default with new Android 371 00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:35.480 studio builds, but hot Wire Native Android works only with 372 00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:39.240 Android thirty four. So if you like, create a new 373 00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:43.359 Android project right now, and you know, this is February twentyeth, 374 00:20:43.480 --> 00:20:47.079 twenty twenty five, we're in really that awkward time where 375 00:20:47.079 --> 00:20:49.680 the new life that became the default last week, and 376 00:20:49.720 --> 00:20:50.279 we have an. 377 00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:54.880 Up there last week, okay, like last. 378 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:57.240 Like the SDK has been around for a while, but 379 00:20:57.799 --> 00:20:59.920 it was became the new default and Android like very 380 00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:02.559 very recently, right, So if you create a new Android 381 00:21:02.599 --> 00:21:04.720 app right now, it will be broken. You have to 382 00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:06.559 drop down to thirty four and you're gonna get all 383 00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:08.559 these warnings from Android Studio. So there's an open pr 384 00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:10.640 already for hot Wire I need of Android. You're just 385 00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:12.400 doing all our due diligence to make sure it works. 386 00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:17.200 But like things like that are we stay on top 387 00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:19.359 of them. With the libraries, it's easy to release a 388 00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:23.240 new version of a library, relatively speaking. For the book, 389 00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:27.319 it gets a little bit trickier because I can't just 390 00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:30.440 update someone's physical copy of a book, right. I can 391 00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:34.400 update the PDF no problem, like the three beta versions 392 00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:35.680 of the book that have been out already. 393 00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:38.559 That's why I always buy the digital version from the 394 00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:43.640 Ragmatic Studio and not from Amazon, just because they'll email me, hey, dude, there's. 395 00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:46.920 A new one exactly exactly, yeah, direct from the publisher. 396 00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:49.000 You get an update every time I update it. And 397 00:21:49.319 --> 00:21:51.720 right now we're in a really good spot with iOS 398 00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:55.720 iOS just released a new version of x code that 399 00:21:56.039 --> 00:21:58.799 changes some things about how folders and groups are related 400 00:21:58.839 --> 00:22:00.799 under the hood, and like, we're using that new stuff, 401 00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:03.640