Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Stephanie Wilder Taylor and this is Drunkish.
I wrote a book called Drunkish that came out a
while ago where I told my whole sobriety story. But
now I have a podcast so I can hear other
people's sobriety stories. And you don't even have to be
sober to listen. So curl up with a mocktail or
a beer, no judgment. I'm not watching you.
Speaker 2: And before we.
Speaker 1: Get to today's guest, please follow, like, subscribe, review, do
all the things to help this podcast grow. I will
really appreciate it. And now today's guest is Kathleen Wilhoyt.
She is an actress. She's been in a ton of
movies and TV shows starting in the eighties. She's an
amazing musician with two CDs out Pitched Like a Girl
and Shiva Plus. She was cast in the upcoming Hulu
series about the Murda Murders. And here she is with
me right now. Hello, Kathleen. I'm so happy you're here.
Thank you for doing this.
Speaker 3: Happy to be here, very happy to be here. I
adore you.
Speaker 1: Oh, I have a memory of us doing your podcast
that you had a long time ago to suck the
Joy podcast, and I remember coming over was a little
bit far. It's like west Side, remember that west Side?
And we recorded. We had such a really good show.
We recorded for like an hour and a half and
then and then your producer was like, I didn't it
didn't record, remember that?
Speaker 3: But we just hung out for an hour. We did.
We had some technical difficulties. That's a problem with the
gen X and the new fangled computers. Where's the on
sweetch you know, I know.
Speaker 1: But and then I was like, oh my god, that
was We were both so funned. We were like, that
was so good. It's not about to be podcast stars.
And then I had to come back. I came back
like another time, and we redid it. I feel like
we recaptured. How long did you do that podcast?
Speaker 3: I know, four or five years, you know, and we
had a ball. It's just, you know, we ended up
having artistic differences because he wanted a he very much
wanted a non structured thing, and I wanted to start
bringing structure into it. So that's a pretty big impasse.
I think, is it the wrong word? If I say
the wrong word.
Speaker 1: That's that's all right, That's that's correct, he reached an impasse.
Speaker 3: I love him so much. He just moved to Palm Springs, Corey.
His name is Coryell. Jeff's kids of a human being.
I love him so much.
Speaker 2: Is he still doing podcasts?
Speaker 3: No? Well, you know, we also got into politics a lot,
and that is you have to be pretty ballsy to
do that. And since then, I've been very strong in
my opinions, but I ended up getting like I wasn't
able to hear the other side. So that doesn't make
you a very good I don't know. I don't think
that makes you like I wanted to just scream out
at the universe, and I didn't think that made for
a very good podcast. You know, we had a friend
of mine, this guy, he's a gun teacher. He teaches
people how to shoot guns. Well, of course, he is
pro gun. That's his living, that's his passion, Like he
gives a shit. He wants people to be armed up,
that's his whole thing. And I wanted him on the
podcast to just have a discussion with us, and I
had him listen to a bunch of previous podcasts and
he's like, there's no way on God's green Earth I'd
go on that podcast, and I was like, why you
guys have no open mind to my perspective on this
at all, you know, And I realized, like, wow, we
are not professional podcasters like you know. And it was
just sort of a simple It was a little bit
of a moment where we were like hmm. And then
when I had a difference of opinion with Corey, my
podcast partner, I didn't feel like I presented my position
with any kind of strength or intelligence. I just wanted
to scream at him and say it's just how I feel. Stop,
you know, which is not doesn't make it a great debater.
Speaker 1: So he didn't receive that. Well, listen, you guys made
it four or five years. You said, that's a long
time for podcasters.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we made a lot of podcasts. We had some
really good ones too.
Speaker 1: I thought, sometimes it just runs its course and you
feel like you want it to be different. In the
person feels doesn't feel that way because I can see
both sides of what you're saying right now, Like, I
think what's glorious about podcasting is it can just be
free form. I mean, this podcast hangs itself on being
about sobriety. But I feel like a lot of podcasts
that I like to listen to are just you know,
we don't know where they're going to go.
Speaker 3: Oh interesting, And I prefer very like I love Heather
Cox Richardson, you know, and she's basically just reading her piece,
you know, or another one I like Ezra Klein, which
is also he doesn't know where he's going to go,
but he has a very strong position. What else do
I There's some podcasts I adore, you know. I did
listen to every episode of Dying for Sex and then
now the show's on and I'm one episode away from
finishing it, and I just think it's so good.
Speaker 2: I loved that podcast. Yeah, yeah, it was good.
Speaker 3: And then The Murdow Murders, which is I just did
a mini series called The Murdaw Murders based on this
podcast that Mandy Matney. Mandy Mattney did about the Murdaw Murders.
She did ninety seven episodes from and she ended up
inserting herself in the actual trial because she uncovered some
she did some you know, crime stop or whatever amateur
slew thing, and she was in the actual trial. So
it was kind of fun to meet her at the
end of the miniseries that I just did in Atlanta.
She was there and I was I was sort of like,
you said, what do you call fangirling and girling?
Speaker 2: When does that come out? I'm so excited about that.
Speaker 3: Oh, that comes out probably October maybe. Oh, okay, they
turned those things around. It's a Hulu Disney thing. It's
with Patricia Arcatt, isn't it and this guy Jason Clark.
I don't know, just and it was just such a
great experience for me. I mean, I just felt like,
I can't believe.
Speaker 2: This, you know, it's really cool.
Speaker 3: Just I got to do some acting. This kid Johnny
Birch told isn't it had had on my scenes with
him and Patricia Arquette, and I don't know, it just
made me feel good. I just couldn't believe I was
number six on the call sheet and someone was asking
me what I wanted for breakfast. I felt like, really,
I guess my breakfast brito. You know. I was so stoked,
like and everyone's like, you're so happy all the time,
and I was just like, because I have been really
kind of unemployed, not unemployed, but just you know, I
feel like the acting business sort of grabbed me by
the lapels and just like smashed my face into the curve.
You know, aging and eight aging as a character, actress
or whatever the hell I am is a tricky business.
It's tricky. It's not easy.
Speaker 1: Now you've been acting since the eighties. You sort of
hit the ground in the eighties. And I'm wondering because
I'm a I'm around the same age as you, So
I got that period. Early eighties mid eighties was like
high school for us.
Speaker 2: So you started young.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was eighteen. I was eighteen. And this is
an interesting thing on the internet is an interview that
I did when I was doing promotion from my first album,
and I it makes me sick to even think about
because I say, you know, acting jobs just haven't been
very hard for me. I just kind of I just
get the money. No, it was just sickening about how
I took for granted the luck that I that befell me,
you know, I mean that I was in the right
place at the right time, And to see that interview,
I just want to puke on my shoes, you know, like,
good lord, you lucky bitch, you know, because then you know,
like now I am a humble pie city you know
I'm making self tapes. I'm just trying to figure out
and find the joy in making these self tapes. And
for those of you who don't know what self tapes are,
it's the gateway to getting an acting job. Now it's
no longer the audition in the room, it's these self tapes.
So I've just been doing that and that's few and
far between, and I feel like I have to just
keep putting my best foot forward, keep swinging, basically, keep swinging.
And it's hard.
Speaker 2: Do you think it's hard become.
Speaker 3: Sixty one years old? It's fucking hard.
Speaker 1: Now you've been sober for a long time. How old
were you when you got sober?
Speaker 3: I was twenty.
Speaker 1: Nine, okay, and I'm a baby now, but that's kind
of a baby to me.
Speaker 3: I think so too. My My oldest son is thirty.
Is he thirty roy or twenty nine? Jimmy? Okay, he's
so he's.
Speaker 2: The age that you were when you got sober.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So when you were first starting acting, was it like
a big drinking culture?
Speaker 2: Was ever? You know?
Speaker 1: Or do you feel like it was just you? And
I also want to know if you think that your
long term sobriety has helped you be more resilient in
the you know, when things aren't going well.
Speaker 3: Oh great questions. Okay, so when I got sober, excuse me,
when I was in the throes in the acting business started.
My first acting job was private school for girls in
nineteen eighty two, and the craft service person was the
coke dealer. We partied every night with the whole cast
and crew, hardcore. I found my best friend on Earth
in that cast, and she and I were just on,
you know, we were trying to do the old blackout
preventative cocaine dance with like if I do four martinis
plus a quarter gram, you know, up, I missed the four.
Now I'm into six, and we got two grams, you know,
I mean, I just missed all my calculations to the
drunker and higher you get, the more your calculations go
to shit. And then found that, you know, I'd be
grinding my teeth at you know, six in the morning,
trying to down as much you know, niquil as I
possibly could, just to sleep. You know. Sometimes I remember
once I decided to go jogging. I mean, can you
imagine how how taxing that would have been on my
poor little heart, you know. Anyway, that's the world that
I knew. I didn't know. I knew one chick in
AA and she was weird. And she'd asked me to dinner,
and instead of taking me to dinner, once I was
in her car, she took me to Rodeo Drive, which
is a big Hollywood, sparkly, glittery AA meeting. And I'm like, oh,
it was horrible for me. I just sat there, like,
what I thought we were going at dinner? What the hell?
You know? But I heard stuff.
Speaker 1: Sinks, SLINKs even though but you were a kid at
that time, you weren't even There.
Speaker 3: Was no way I was gonna get sober. Plus, you know,
you hit a bottom, not me. I was making more
money than I ever had. I chowed his dollars. No
way was I getting sober. So I was too busy
buying drinks for the bar, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: And it was working.
Speaker 3: And you know, outside of the fact that I always
missed the mark, it works if you work it like
it worked for me for a while, you know. And
then I got record deals and plays and movies and flying.
I was flying all over the place. And that's when
they in that interview on the web where I'm just like,
I think jobs that's come easy to me, Like, oh
my god, I just you know, I was very very lucky,
and and I was I trained a lot, and I'm
super passionate, and I wrote a song a day, like
I was extremely disciplined about my art form because my
life depended on it. Right. It was the thing that
gave me my right to drink and party hard because
all my heroes, you know, fucking you know, we're you
know whatever that you can name all the brilliant alcoholics
that you know, those are the people that I admired,
and I was like, I'm like them. Ah, you know.
Speaker 1: So, but when you were doing all coke and drinking
and you were still able to show up at your
call time, Like when did you did any of it
ever get you in trouble because you got nothing but success?
Or was everybody like late to call time? Or was
you were you just young and could handle your drugs
and alcohol and you're just like six a I am,
You're on set.
Speaker 3: No, that's a great. So what happens is that, in
my opinion, alcoholism is a progressive disease, and so I
was handling it, handling in it and then not handling
it so much, and then I was missed. I remember
I was so close to getting this movie War of
the Roses, and I passed out in the parking lot
at twentieth Century Fox and woke up like two hours
later with the drool and the sun beaming down my head,
my bangs all sweated on my forehead. I'm like, I'm
ready for the audition. They're like, you know, like I've
had so many missed it by all that much. To
quote Maxwell Smart, I've had so many opportunities that I
just pissed on. I had this great manager that would
that got me record deals and plays, and he was
and then finally, you know, it just crashed and burned
with my drinking, his codependency, you know, and so then
he was out of my life. I don't need him,
you know, and you just start. It's sort of like
the David statue and that allegory people talk about when
they they usually say it in glowing terms about they
just chipped off the rock to find David. I guess
Michaelangelo talked about that just you know that thing, I
mean chipped off the road. Well, for me, I think
that happens as well with budding alcoholics who have been
gifted opportunities and beautiful lives, and you just slowly, with
each situation, chip off the rock until your David looks
like a drunk of a cigarette hanging out of your mouth,
and you know you haven't washed your hair and it's
calico in two two weeks, and you know, tattoos you
didn't want like I got, you know whatever, just stupid shit,
married like a guy I barely knew, you know, Just
dumb decisions just started to add up and just stack
up right higher and higher and higher, until finally I
got fired off of a movie. And that was like
where I was. I couldn't blame my ex husband. It
was only me. I was in New Jersey, I was there,
you know, I don't remember getting off the plane, full blackout.
I had swizzle sticks in the buttonholes of my jean
jacket because I used to drink jack and coke and
so I had just a full jean jacket of swizzle sticks.
And as an actress, there's like my friend made a
joke me actress me. No, my lines like they just
sort of scoop you up at the airport. You don't
have to do a lot of any of that interim
thinking that normal people have to do. And they take
you to the hotel, you know, and then I just
crashed and burned and could not stop drinking. It just
just buried me. And then I got fired before I
even started.
Speaker 2: Oh well that was the movie.
Speaker 3: It was called Jersey Girls.
Speaker 2: I feel like that sounds familiar.
Speaker 1: So so you get there and you're just out of it,
and what do you remember what happened? Did they just
tell your manager? Did they call you into an office?
I love a good fire story.
Speaker 3: Okay, so my husband had overdosed an hour before the
limousine ruled up to my house. He overdosed. He didn't die,
but he went into a Grandma seizure. I'd take him
to the hospital. The whole thing. I was extremely traumatized.
I get into the limousine. They're like, there's beer back there,
and I'm like, shesh, I gotta have a cocktail. This
is horrific my day. So that's when the drinking started
and the inability to say no, and I just drank
to the airport, drank on the plane, drank up the plane,
drank from the plane to the hotel drank that night
when I was meeting everybody, it was like, let's meet
at the bar, but I'd already been like soused by
the time I rolled into the bar. And then I
guess I went out with everybody I don't know, blackout
somebody maybe on this planet earth nose, I don't know.
Woke up the next day to watered down vodka, little
lime drinks all over there was like it was gross.
I won't go into the details, but it was gross.
And my message light blinking. I call my ex husband,
who was my husband at the time, and he's like, baby,
they don't want you on this. No. I didn't call him.
I ran to the the read through. It was a
read through, and I roll into the read through forty
five minutes late. They're already like, I think they're already
getting in the works to fire me. But I just
jumped in there and read my lines for the rest
of the movie that I had missed, and then they
had me go on this this charade, the strad of
a costume fitting and everything I put on, They're like,
looks great. That looks so good, and I'm like, boy,
this is weird. Are you sure this may this maybe
doesn't fit right, and they were like, nope, looks good.
Look So everybody knew I was fired. And then I
remember seeing this actress who was sitting in the hallway
and I was like, hey, man, because I knew she
went out with us, and I was like, I'm sorry,
I uh, I fucked up last night. I feel I'm
sorry about that. And she she didn't even look at me,
and she just went like this, oh man, And I
just was like, my heart just dropped. And I was like, well,
you know, first she get defensive, screw her, what the
hell you know? And then I got in my hotel
room and called my husband. I'm like, everyone's acting so weird.
He's like, yeah, dude, you were fired. How did he
know because they had called him? I guess what's wrong
with her? I don't know. It was a mess.
Speaker 2: You're like, maybe what's wrong with her? He's the one
who just overdosed.
Speaker 3: Right, didn't that the way? But I'm the one who
just got fired without him anyway, it was a long
walk with my three months of close through that hotel
room to the limousine, back to the airport, back to
LA and there was my little junkie husband picking me
up the airport, drove drove me back to my house
on Dick's Street and uh, and then I called a
central office and.
Speaker 2: That was it.
Speaker 3: They were like, go down the Robertson Boulevard to the
log cabin. And I remember, I can tell you. I
remember walking down Robertson Boulevard. I wore really high shoes
because I'm short for my weight, really high shoes. And
I remember doing this with every step until they got
to the log cabin.
Speaker 1: So you just went by yourself, I myself, did you
do you remember if you tried to get him to
go to I feel like that's a thing that we
all do, a lot of us do in very early
is go like, well, I'm not the only one. These
people have a problem too, I'm going to make them
go with me.
Speaker 3: We did that, he and I, you know, we went
to Narcotics Anonymous in Nashville. He went to treatment in Nashville.
I paid for it and then helped him escape after
a week. Thought we were really yeah, that was some
of my good decision making, you know. So we knew
all about AA. I just didn't know if I wanted
to do it, if I was that bad or whatever.
But when I got fired off of the movie, I
was like, I don't want this anymore. Plus, my mother
is alcoholic, and I know what's down the line in
that life, and it sucks. It's this dead life. It's
like a zombie life. You know. That's the way my
mother lived. Worked all day and then drank herself into
a stupor all night, and then got up and worked
all day. And that is a zombie life. And I
just did not want that. Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: What about your father? I was, pardon me, what about
your father?
Speaker 3: He's like, you know, he's like the classic. You know,
it's easy for me to blame everything on my mom,
but he, you know, he they were a classic alan
on alcoholic. He drank every drink for a drink. But
he didn't have the personality change that she would have,
you know, so he got to be kind of the hero.
I don't know what's wrong with your mom. You know,
it's pretty unfair in retrospect now that I'm a you know,
I have been sober of thirty three years, and in retrospect,
you know, he never were you know, excuse me, he never.
He didn't make very much money, and you know, my
mom had to work and she cleaned and she parented,
you know, and he was like this funny he taught
me all these songs. He was a songwriter like me,
me and dad. You know, I really identified strongly with him,
and in retrospect, my ex friend and she said, used
to say with when I discussed my parents' relationship, she'd say,
there's not enough booze in the world, you know, because
my mother was like hungover vacuuming under our feet. You know,
we just lift our feet up while we were watching TV.
Turn off the vacuum we're watching, you know what I mean.
Can you imagine just so like you know, she was
so so mad, and he'd be like, I'm trying to
write a song. He has his ukulele and he's like
he ain't never been to Texas, you know, He's trying
to write this song. And my mom's like, well, I'm
trying to support this household. And he's like, well, I'm
trying to write a song. Like it became this whole
you know, what do you want me to do? Sell shoes?
That's what he'd always say. She's like, yeah, kind of
you have five kids, you dope, you know.
Speaker 2: Wow, five of you guys.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well two half and then three whole. So my
dad had two kids before he married my mother. Okay,
but we used to all think of ourselves as one
for all, all for one, and then when my dad
got Alzheimer's, we recognized that that was not the case.
And so my two older sisters can go do their
lives forever. Huh, and we will do our lives. We
aren't one for all and all for one. You know,
you realize that your parents have different relationships with their
different kids. They don't turns out love you all the same.
Speaker 1: I have the same experience.
Speaker 3: Really tell me, because I've been blabbling this whole time.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, this is this is about you. I
feel like people already know about me, but no, I relate.
I relate to that. Well, I have a whole different situation.
My biological father had I was my mom was number three,
wife number three, then he had a wife number four,
and he had kids from all the marriages. And I
don't have a relationship with any of those. I haven't
even met most of them.
Speaker 3: Number one, well.
Speaker 2: I never lived with any of them.
Speaker 1: I mean they were already older.
Speaker 2: But then also.
Speaker 1: My brother and sister are from my stepfather, and I
have very different relationships with each of them, one of
them super close, one of them haven't talked to in
a really, really long time. But it does have to
do it that dynamic of like what parent is close
to how.
Speaker 2: They treat you.
Speaker 1: So bonded me and one of the siblings and did
not bond me and the other. So let's put it
that way.
Speaker 3: Well, we had an event my dad when he was
diagnosed with Alzheimer's. My two half sisters never spoke to
him again, and I completely ghosted him. And as anyone
who knows walking a parent across the Old Rainbow Bridge
who's got brain disease, Alzheimer's dementia is a excruciating journey,
painful to watch brilliant people just disintegrate before your very eyes.
And so their decision to ghost him and break his
heart like that made it very difficult for me to well,
I just didn't have respect for it. I just didn't
have respect for that. And so it is in direct
conflict with what I believe my spiritual practices because I'm mad,
and I have to pray to become willing to forgive them.
It's tricky, it's very yeah, freaky.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So so take me back though, you get sober?
Speaker 2: Was it one? Was it?
Speaker 3: That was it?
Speaker 2: You went to that meeting and you never drank again.
Speaker 3: See the first time I went to well yeah, and
that was in nineteen ninety one or nineteen ninety two. Yeah,
it was May twenty eighth, nineteen ninety two, and I
just started the journey, and I did what they told
me to do, except there was a little pill descrepancy issue.
Me and my EGX found a bunch of pills. Somebody
died in our neighborhood, was during the end of the
AIDS crisis, and they had pushed all their stuff out
onto the curb and we found a box full of
narcotics pills. So we took the box back to our
house and we divided the bills up, so I had
my little stash. And then there came a time when
I was going to get my year. You know, we
celebrate our year, right, sobriety dates, and I was going
to get my year, and my ex husband's like, man,
I'm not giving you your I said, you got to
give me a cake. He's like, I'm not giving you
a cake unless you stand up there and say my
name is Kathleen and I'm a liar. I was like,
how ou dare you? You know? And like a movie, yeah,
I was so And then I had to tell my
sponsor and she's like, just go and tell the truth.
We're clean and sober now, you know. You know, I'm
glad you didn't drink for a year, because drinking is
my problem, not the bills. I had a real agoraphobia
and real sleep disorder, you know, that is what I
told myself. And anyway, so I picked the dates because
my best drudging buddy her birthday was December fourteenth, so
I just picked no, December fifteenth, So I just picked
her a date because I knew I had not I
had run out of pills by December fifteenth, when I
had from May to December, I had run out of
pills and was clean and sober from December fifteenth on.
Speaker 2: But not really on purpose, but because you'd run out.
Speaker 1: Because I have always said, like I love pain, pills,
loved love, love, love love the feeling it was just
the act of trying to get more was always seemed
really hard to me, you know, So when I would
when I would get a prescription for Vicoin for like
dental work. Then I would get the prescription and then
take them all like within a week, you know, like
really like so many a day until they were gone
like potato chips.
Speaker 2: But then I would be like, damn it, how am
I going to get more?
Speaker 1: You know, and then my brain would start to go
like I could like order them from Canada, but it's
like super expensive and I'm going to have to explain
why I'm getting like packages from Canada to my husband
and or you know, I I could like go to
a different doctor and say that I have a back
problem or whatever, and then I'd be like or I
could just go to Trader Joe's and get some wine,
you know, and then I would therefore not be fully
addicted to pills. But it's not It wasn't by my choice,
do you know what I mean? Like if I'd had
a bunch, I would have for sure had a real situation.
So I just think it's funny that you just ran
out and then you're like, Okay, I guess I'm not
going to do that anymore.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I just a few weeks ago, I
know I have a friend who had a back injury
and she had stockpiled her pills, and then she when
she'd call me, she'd say she was doing fine, everything
was fine, and then she'd tell me about stuff with
her kid, and I'd give her some of my experience,
strength and hope of what I've experienced with my kids.
And we just had this very delightful conversation. And then
I had I'd driven back from Atlanta with my kid,
my daughter, and I was sitting out in my backyard
scrolling looking at Facebook, and it said that she had
died on Facebook and they gave information about her her
memorial service, and I was like, what the heck. So
I call her wife. I'm like, dude, what is happening?
And she tells me this whole story, and to my mind,
it had to deal with when in AA they say
resentment is the number one killer and and trauma obviously trauma,
but she took herself out a story. She took herself out.
And on my birthday, June twenty ninth, I'm going to
go to her memorial service. But I've been like blubbering
a little bit, wanting to share about it in my
twelve step program because I feel like I know a
lot of people, people who get like steps schmips who cares.
And then I have like firsthand knowledge from the foxhole
that if you don't deal with your anger and your
resentments and your and you don't follow what our weird
protocol is regarding prescribed medication, there is a very high
likelihood that you're going to have to face that demon
pretty hardcore, whether it takes you quote unquote out and
you visually relapse, or you take yourself out because you know,
like my friend said, my buddy, he's like, remember people
who take themselves out when they're high. They're killing the
wrong guy. And I feel like she killed the wrong guy,
you know what I mean, She killed the wrong guy
because as she hung on one more day, like our
friend Carney says, hold on, she would have she would
have been like Jesus, well, that was an overreaction, you
know what I mean. It just it's a real it's
a real, uh wake up call.
Speaker 1: I get that, you know, of all the things, of
all the vices, you know, I know that, like I
can't ever take even you know, any kind of benzos again,
even because when I originally was given xanax, I was like,
oh my gosh, thank God, thank God, either something that
can make me feel normal, because I I think I
had a wake up call that I'd been suffering from
anxiety my whole life, you know, And so I was like,
is this how people feel all the time? They just
they feel like this. It didn't make me tired, it
didn't make me nauseous. It just made me like, oh
my god, I can function, you know. And that's so
dangerous because the recovery way is definitely the hard way
in the end, in the long run, it's so much better,
and it's is kind of the easier, softer way, but
you don't know it at the time. So it was
very bad news to me when I got sober that
I would also have to like never take pain pills,
never take xanax.
Speaker 2: I had to tightrate off of xanax. I was on.
Speaker 1: A you know, prescribed dose. But I've always known, just
deep in my heart that there's no I could never
go back to that, even though in my mind I
was like, that's not my that was not my problem.
I could take that as directed. But there's something about
doing something that tricks your brain into thinking like, oh no,
this is how I'm supposed to feel. I'm supposed to
feel good. There's something that tells me, in my deepest
self that that I'm an addict. Like the fact that
I think a substance is going to make me feel
normal and better and functional is the most dangerous type
of thinking. So I completely understand and have a good,
healthy fear of like being prescribed anything.
Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
Speaker 1: When my brain starts to go, you know what, you're
having some real genuine anxiety. Maybe you should think about
taking a pill. I always go, oh, that thinking is
so old because I've been sober sixteen years, so you know,
a little something something about yourself right after that many years.
Speaker 2: But so I want to Yeah.
Speaker 3: No, that's a very good point I feel. You know,
my people from a younger generation in my household have
said you have anxiety disorder, and mom, you have all
this and I'm like, no, I am throwing a tantrum.
This is a tantrum. This is me not wanting to
do what I have to do. This is not an
anxiety disorder that I need to be medicated from, you know,
And did you choose it? For shit? That was my son?
I didn't hear it, Okay.
Speaker 2: Anyway, Sorry, Yeah, no, it's that's so true.
Speaker 1: It's like I have to really defend myself against that
kind of thinking that could come back at any time.
But I want to go back because I'm very interested.
So you get sober now you're still a musician actress, Like,
did you have to like lick your wounds for a
little while before you got back in because then you
had some big roles on some TV shows, which I
was a big fan ER. So, by the way, you
know that show, The Pit, It was sort of basically
I say, it's a reboot of ER, but they will
argue that it's not. It's a completely original show. But anyway,
that inspired me to go back and watch old episodes
of ER. I went back to like season one, and
damn girl, you were the star.
Speaker 2: You were a star. You had a huge lead, you
had a huge storyline. You played Chloe.
Speaker 1: You played what's her name's sister doctor, I can't.
Speaker 2: Remember her name.
Speaker 1: Cherry Stringfeld is th yes, exactly, you played the sister.
Were you sober at you were sober right at that time? Yeah,
so your career you got sober and then your career
got so big.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I remember at thirty days of sobriety. I
had to go to work. I got was doing a
movie and I my sponsor is an actress, and I
was terrified to go to work. And she's like, why
are you so scared? And I was like, cause they're
going to fire me. I know it. I know it.
They're going to fire me. She's like, are you drinking?
Like no, I got my thirty day chip, I told you.
She's like, they might fire you. They probably won't. They
fired you because you were drinking, kay, They like be
clear about that. I was like okay. She goes, all
you can do is the best you can do. So
learn your lines and hit your marks, and try to
be of service when you're not in front of the camera.
When when you're in front of the camera, be of
service to your fellow actors. I was like okay, but
I was like shaking when I got to the work
because I was just like hi, Hi. I just felt like, oh,
I'm so getting fired. I am. I felt like I
was at a sandwich board sign that says like I'm
gonna be fired, you know. Anyway, I did that movie
and I really had a great time, and it also
taught me the valuable lesson of doing everything you can
do to do the right thing. What we say in
our community, do the next indicated step, do your footwork.
But you're asking this seat so your heart will follow.
You know all of these cliches, I employed, deployed, whatever,
and and it was amazing. And then I thought I'd
never be able to write a song again. And then
I just started writing song after song. After I stayed
in my write a song every single day until finally,
after I gave birth to my son, I got super
postpartum depressed and felt like I was gonna lob my
baby off the balcony. And my husband was like, I
finally told him the truth, like that's why I can't
go on the balcony. And he's like, you know what,
I think you need to make a record. Let's just
make a record, and so he produced.
Speaker 1: I thought that was going to go a totally different way.
I thought he was going to be like I think
you need to go to the hospital, or I think.
Speaker 2: You need like medication.
Speaker 1: He's like, I think we need to make a song
about it.
Speaker 3: You know what we actually said, because I just burst
into tears because it was such a secret, because I
told him my secret that I had. I felt like
I would drop him off the balcony and he said,
then don't go out on the balcony. Yeah, it's me.
I know. He's a good two sweet dave. He's a
good guy. And he said, let's make a record. And
then he goes, you got all these songs. So we
made a record and then yeah, then.
Speaker 2: I was that pitched like a girl.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So I told Kathleen. I mentioned this to
Kathleen before we started recording, but I do think it
bears repeating that I was already a fan. I worked
with Kathleen's your husband on a TV show. I mean
many many, many many years ago, and you came strolling
in and he said, my wife Kathleen, she's a musician.
And I guess he hadn't because you guys have different
last names. So the way in my memory, he hadn't
said your last he hadn't said, my wife is Kathleen Wilhoyt.
So I just wasn't thinking about it. He's like, yeah,
my wife, she's a musician. And then when you came in,
you came into the office with your baby in the stroller,
and I was like, oh my god, that's Kathleen Wilhoyt,
and I don't think you were like super well known
even for your music at that point. But I already
owned your CD because i'd heard it on this radio
station in LA that played a lot of like new
music and broke a lot of sort of alternative adult
alternative singer songwriter types, and I had loved I had
bought the CD. Maybe I owned two. Did Shiva come
out at that Shiva? Had that already come out?
Speaker 2: Okay? Then I had.
Speaker 1: Whatever it was, I had already played that on repeat.
So I was very much fangirling you and like, oh
my god, I.
Speaker 2: Didn't know that was your wife. That's crazy. And then
I was really excited.
Speaker 3: That's so sweet.
Speaker 2: I know so you, I.
Speaker 1: Mean your music. You are an amazing musician. I just
wanted to put that out there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that I love. I love Plaine music. I
love it so so much. And it is a little
bit bucket listy for me because my friend is Dina Carter.
She and she sold thirteen million you know Strawberry Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
My friend and we recently got back in touch. Long story,
it doesn't matter anyway, She and I were talking about
it but I the life of the musician is very
hard on for me as a woman with children, you know,
touring like it's just a very hard and being sober.
It's just tricky. So I don't miss the life of
a musician. But the act of writing a song, bringing
it to life, performing it on stage is something I
never want to forget. It is truly so profoundly fulfilling
to me in my bone marrow singing something that I wrote,
that I created from nothing. That's why I love so much.
You know, I do jail Guitar Doors, which is a
this you know, Wayne Kramer started this thing, jail Guitar Doors,
and it's a bunch of songwriters that go into the
jails and they've got guitars and stuff, and you get
to write songs with the inmates. Oh wow. And I
love it so much and many times because there's there's
no ego there, like I can't film me, look at me.
I'm a badass in jail writing songs with you, like
you can't take your phone in there. So you're really
doing this art form at its most like the pearl
of what's extraordinary about the process of writing a song
and performing it and there's great acoustics in jail. I
just sing out, you know, and then the song is gone,
like a butterfly on and I get in my car
after me and my buddy Pete go for Philippe Sandwich,
and I drive home, and many times I just weep
about this act, this gift of songwriting. What a blessing
it is that I have this, I get to do
this thing. And yeah, I would have loved to stand
in front of thousands of people and sing my songs
and have people sing the choruses back to me. I
would love that, But that's just not what is in
the cards for me today. And I dare say that
the satisfaction I get from Jao guitar doors and driving
home from a night of songwriting with inmates, and the
satisfaction Dina Carter gets for playing, you know, at Staples Center,
you know whatever. I bet they rival each other. I
bet they're close. I think they are. I will choose
to believe that they are.
Speaker 1: You wrote an amazing song about that choice, about about
that that struggle in your mind of like is it
enough to be at home and not and give up
that kind of dream?
Speaker 2: I forget what's it called what was that song.
Speaker 3: For somebody to worry about somebody? I wrote that show
for Nicole's TV show. You know Nicole, she was the least. Yeah,
it was a kind of an interesting thing. My friends said, hey, Kat,
they need a song for this show we're doing the
music for, and we think you'd be you know, they
really want you to write the song for it. I
said great. So they said, what, they want to meet
with you first to give you the idea around what
they want the song to be about. And so I
met with them and I brought, you know, brought a notebook,
and they started saying, it's a woman who you know,
had a little bits of success with her music career,
and then she had children, and then she just finally
decided that she just wanted to be home with their children,
but she always still yearned to play, like in my mind,
you mean my freaking, freaking, freak freak life, you know
what I mean? Like, good Lord, yeah, I got it,
I got it. You know. I still was like er,
you know, like cause why why didn't I even audition
for that freaking show? You know what I mean? Like
nobody called me, So I go home, I pick up
the guitar, and I just drawn me start. I think
I wrote that on the yuke. Maybe it just somebody
worry about you know, I just started writing a song
and then uh yeah, and you know whatever, I got
some couple of bucks for it, you know, sending it
for the TV show. But damn, I was like, what
the hell? What is this? You know?
Speaker 2: What was that TV show?
Speaker 3: Rita Rocks? Okay, Rita Rocks and Nicole she's a friend
of mine. She played the lead and she got to
sing it.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, why, I.
Speaker 3: Said to my attorney because there was one they wanted
to change lyrics in the bridge and I was so
furious about it, like who wanted to change the lyrics? Like,
and I call my attorney and she's like, Kat, if
you give a song to a TV show or a movie,
you got to look at it like that's your step kid,
not your kid. You know, you got to be loose
and for you. You know, they're paying you.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: Interesting, So okay, So I just want to go back
for a minute because there's all these little, uh little trails.
So you go back, you start getting like doing really
well with your acting, because then you're on er. Then
you did La Law after that or before that, you
played Benny's girlfriend, you played a disabled person. You were
so good.
Speaker 2: I feel like you were kind of at the height.
Speaker 1: I mean probably at that point, like everybody knew your name, right,
it was kind of your summer at that point.
Speaker 3: So remember in that interview, acting comes easy? Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah,
So when did a good manager?
Speaker 1: And then was there a point where you were like,
oh shit, this is getting hard?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Oh hell yeah. So yeah, did acting job after
acting job. I loved it. Me and my friend Xander Berkeley,
we were on a movie together and he's like, look,
we got the same size resume. You know, I started
stacking up stuff and then he just catapulted because he
aged into a whole new level. I mean, that guy's
never stopped working brilliant, and I just because you know,
all of the former leading ladies took the character roles
from the character actresses. And it just got to a
point when I was in my late forties or whatever,
and my husband, very sweet, he sat me down. I
remember where I'm in the front stoop and he's like, baby,
I need you to you got to get a job.
And I was like, I'm trying I write my I'm
writing a great American novel, you know. And he's like, no, honey,
do I need you to get a real job, like what? Well,
I was like, I don't even know, you know, I
don't even know what to do. I've only acted like
I've literally I came down to LA and thirty days
in I got acting like a movie and I ended
up having to get a job that summer, and I
got a job for about two months at a market
research place, and then I got another movie, and then
I just had worked all the way, all the way,
all the way all forty eight.
Speaker 2: You were teaching for a while too, though, right.
Speaker 3: So I went back to college at fifty and got
my math master's degree at a program at cal State
Long Beach. They had for industry professionals to go back
to school, so I didn't get my undergraduate degree and
was able to get my master's degree, and in two
years I got my master's degree. Yeah, they had when
I this program that I was in, have they have
you teaching? Day one? So I went back to college
and had a class of fifty students, wide eyed, never
acted before. And I'll tell you teaching, And I know
you've got some experience.
Speaker 2: I do teach, yea, but.
Speaker 3: Tea experience is maybe eighty percent of the game. So
my standing in front of fifty students, you know, if
you were to try to connect with each one, it's
going to I had an hour and fifteen minutes with
these students, so I spent twenty minutes doing my attendance right,
because I need to, especially with acting. You want it's
you know, you are your instrument, you are your paintbrush, right,
So it behooves a professor to kind of get a
little bit of a handle on each student. So when
I took my I'd have them all sit in alphabetical
order according to their last names, so I could just
go from kid to kid to kid to kid to kid.
But I would have to just be like, hey you,
I see you. You know, I see you, Stephanie Wilder
tailor you like me to say what you know? I
just try to connect, like wow, here you are at school,
you know, just trying to make a connection with each
one of the students. And then I had to develop
a curriculum and whatever. Anyway, I just got better and
better and better and better at teaching until finally I
landed my dream job. Which is acting for the camera
up at Callarts. I just love love teaching at CalArts.
Speaker 2: Isn't teaching so fun?
Speaker 3: It is fun? You know, it's funny. It is fun.
I feel like saying to you, the professional writer with
books published, it's fun, you know what I mean? It
is fun as an actress. Whatever I would you know.
I heard it was it Ethan Hawke. I heard him,
and so he was saying, if you don't love acting
and teaching, get out of the business. He started sort
of railing about and I felt like, bitch, said the
guy who gets to pick and choose movies, you get
to tell me about teaching, motherfucker. When I had, you know,
I mean, I taught on the on the other coast
at an art school full of ungrateful, no talented like
the people that entitled just I mean, it was horrible
for me, you know what I mean. And that was
when I was a full time teacher. That's rough teaching
people you know are never going to act professionally. They
have no talent and they're just needing a babysitting service,
you know. And and I remember seeing that Ethan Hawk
thing and I was like, oh, said the guy who
gets to float on stage at a SAG after you know,
special class with Ethan Hawk, I'm like, er, you know, well,
I don't think teaching is rough when you have to
do it right and can be rough, and there are
beautiful moments in teaching. I love it when it goes great,
when it's good and you have a class the jels
and and like this happens at cal Arts because the
kids are so talented and you just see them just
like explode off the screen. They're so gifted. I mean
that is you know. I drive home just like, ah,
I love this kid. You know, I've seen scenes where
they perform so well. I'm like, wow, I can't believe
I'm in the presence of performing art. This is the
greatest thing. I love what you just did, and that's fantastic.
But for people that have attained success in their chosen
field and then bitch at people who are struggling to
pay their bills and trying to do the right thing,
who never really got to do their thing, I have
a little bit of a problem with that, Ethan.
Speaker 1: I think anything that you have to do full time,
there's going to be burnout factor.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Think I was thinking of it more as like I
teach memoir writing, but it's part time. It's only a
few hours every week, and I love it because all
the people that are there want to be there. So
I just love hearing people come up with a story
and like you like you at cal arts more like
those moments, especially if you're also doing what you love
to do exactly.
Speaker 3: And you know, I got to do both, you know,
I get to do both. I get to teach and
I get to act. When I get those acting gigs
like I did this last semester, I got to do both.
I was blessed to get to do both, and I
felt very delighted by that, you know, and it's wonderful.
And I also feel like it gives me something to
actually give to the students, Like the stuff that I'm
teaching you is stuff that I actually do, and it's
up to my game as an actress, because you know,
I tell my students, like, you know, there's so much
time in the middle of a movie set where you
can actually do your art, where you can actually do
your work, you know, while they're setting up the lights,
you can do the personalization with all the objects on
the set and get that really nice in your body,
you know, all these things. So I ended up doing
those things that I teach where prior to teaching, I
got lazy and just was like lines in the makeup chair.
I got it, you know what I mean. And then
this last job, I got to do all my stuff.
I didn't even look like myself in this I got
to transform the costume. People were so talented. It was
just such a blessing to be sober and present for too,
by the way, to recognize how lucky I was to
have that job.
Speaker 2: So that brings me back to.
Speaker 1: Two more questions. But I just want to say, so
you being sober, You've been sober a really long time.
There are a lot of people who are sober for
a long time and they're like at some point, usually
fairly early on, they're like, Okay, I got it. Like
I'm sober. I don't need to do a bunch of
stuff or help other alcoholics or any you know what
I mean. So what do you think is the difference
for you? Since you when you got sober, you stayed sober,
and you had a very busy, successful life. What made
you stay in recovery and like you know, active in recovery,
helping people like, what what do you think that was?
Speaker 3: I have seen people who stray from the program, and
the way I think dry alcoholism come alive is very
unattractive to me. It's scary, it's gross. You see people
that participated in our community and then they don't go
to meetings anymore. You see them relapse, you see them die,
you see them break out in the news. Because I'm
in Los Angeles and many people are in the entertainment business,
break out in the news in drunken, horrible, humiliating, TMZ flames.
You run into them out in the world and they're
kind of risk, crispy, nasty, and I don't want any
of that. The other thing that I think keeps me
in the game is I have extraordinary chef's kiss people
in my life. My best judging buddy, Jessica, my sponsor,
who I feel like gets me in my bone marrow.
She gets me. She's not intimidated by the way I
express myself. You know, a lot of people think I'm yelling,
and I'm not yelling at you. I'm yelling at the universe.
My sponsor yells at the universe. She's a very dramatic
and she gets me, you know, because I'm not trying
to collaborate anybody. I'm just trying to figure it out
in my mind. You can tell that I'm kind of
like vociferous, like kind of person. So my sponsor gets
me have a community that I go to dinner with
on Sunday nights before my speaker meeting that I picked
the speakers for us. I'm very involved. I'm very involved
in the convention we have every year out here in
the West Valley, and I last year I had wrote
and directed a play for that, and you know, it
just I see people how many you know, if I
see people standing up in front of people saying, you know,
if it weren't for Kathleen, you know, like you start
hearing stuff like that, it's hard to look in the
mirror and go while you're a piece is It's hard
to do that because you did something today, You did
a good thing. You know, you tried your hardest, you
tried to be of service to people. I know what
it feels like in the struggle of how it feels
to have to go to that first meeting, brutal, brutal,
and if I can alleviate any of that kind of pain,
just by virtue of the fact if I can do it,
you could do it, you know, if I can do
any of that, And that's the glue, that's what keeps
me going in there. Yeah, that's why I keep going.
When I don't go, I start yelling at people. I
start thinking, my kids are so ungrateful. Ahem. I have
to do everything. If I have to do everything and
you do nothing, we got a big problem here. These
are all things that I've said. You know, I found
myself when I moved to the West Valley. I didn't
want to go to meetings out here, and I found
myself on in my backyard sort of wanting to scream
out to the valley because I had this view to
scream out, hello, I'm alive. You know what. I felt like,
I'm alive, you know, like I didn't have my normal outlet,
which is my community. It's a huge part of my
mental health, and I value it. I don't mess with it.
And I go to my regular meeting a regular meeting day,
and I all of that, and I sponsor people, even
though there's a million other things that I might rather do.
After I I finished working with somebody again looking in
the mirror at the brush of my teeth, like it's
hard to feel like your a piece of garment. I
start feeling like, hey, maybe I did a good I'm
not so bad, you know.
Speaker 1: So let me wrap this up by asking you, by
going back to the original question, I feel like we
might have the answer. But how has being sober helped
you from the time you got sober through then you
all your success and then like the hard times, do
you attribute sobriety to keeping you humble, keeping you serene,
like through all those ups and downs of life.
Speaker 3: Prior to sobriety, I think I was an acquired case.
I was super volatile, right, super volatile.
Speaker 2: I was a prima for everybody I know.
Speaker 3: I was a pre madonna. There are people who think
I'm I'm sure I used to. It was very contentious
with people. You'd love to just ball people out and
have them look at me like I'm a psycho. Like
there's a lot of really poor behavioral things that I
exhibited prior to sobriety. And then once I stepped up
onto that sober train right and started riding down those rails,
where I started seeing like, oh, when you are able
to talk about your part in a conflict. The other
person can oftentimes talk about their part in the conflict.
And I don't need to go around balling people out.
Oh that works. Oh, showing up with a full heart,
on time, ready to go makes people respond in kind
in a genuine and sweeter way to like, you know,
I just learned all these little tid oh at five
years of sobriety. Because I strive to have another graceful day,
I end up with a guy like David Hart, Like
what the hell? This guy treats me like Goldie's a
good hang. We like the same TV shows like This
Is you know, And I'm afraid if I take a
drink gone, I'm back on my backyard. Hella, I'm a lot,
you know. That's why when I was teaching full time
out on a marsh and in a freaking the other
coast and in the South, I stop going to meetings.
I stopped paying attention to my sobriety. I did go
to a couple zoom meetings, and I found myself smoking
cigarettes in my screened and porch, listening to bugs, hating
everybody I was. You know, my students mostly just freaking
hating them, and I felt like I could drink. No
one would know. I'll be sober in California. I'm not
going to get sober in the South. I'll drink my
you know, I am. And I called my sponsor and
she's like, I think you should come home. I called
my husband. He's like, I said, I think I need
to come home, baby, I think I could drink here.
I'm that unhappy. And he's like, Okay, let's just finish
out the year and we'll drive home together. And I did.
I finished out the year. I was so happy after
I knew I was done after that last semester, and
then Dave came out and we just drove across the
country and we were like what listen blairing music, rock
and roll and cruising a Memphis and you know, Oklahoma City.
We just had the best time driving back, and I
knew when I saw the mustard frickin' slog and homeless people,
I was like, I'm home. And the thing I wanted
to see the most were my eight eight people. I
needed to go and be with my people. It is
a huge part of my mental health.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my gosh, this has been I don't want
to say a treat because that sounds so like it's been.
It's been amazing. I adore you, I adore your story,
I adore your honesty. Give us all the tell us,
tell us your priorities. Where where do you want people
to find you? Watch the what is it? Is it
called The Murder Murders. That's the series that's coming out
in October? Instagram music?
Speaker 2: Are you? Are you putting music up on a almost
called It's.
Speaker 3: Gonna I'm gonna do the right thing and promote.
Speaker 2: Somebod promote yourself.
Speaker 3: And not wonder why the universe doesn't come knocking on
my door having me by the lapel saying let me
publish your manuscript, let me publish script. Yeah, because that's
what I want to have happened. So if you're a
publisher or literary agent, please keep knocking on my door.
My lapels are available. You're welcome to publish my Oh.
Speaker 1: If they want to come and grab you by the lapels,
they're going to have to like follow you on Instagram
first or something.
Speaker 2: So where can people find.
Speaker 3: You out Instagram? I'm the real Kathleen w on Instagram. Okay,
and you know I just my my online game is
you know, I'm gen X like it's not great. I'm
on Facebook, couldn't tell you how to get there, but
I friend some people. I'm at like five thousand people.
But oh I do a cameo. Hello, there you go
find cameo. I'll sing you diity Oh.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 3: Really my dream is too, I like to do like you.
I like to write stories. So that's where in the
acting business we say where the where the attention goes,
the energy flow, where the energy goes, the attention flows
or whatever. That's what I spend my time doing. When
I sign off of here, I'm going to clean my
house for one hour and then I go back to
my second novel that I'm I'm writing and writing so
and my first novel I'm sending out to different publishers
and agents and stuff. So that's where my passion is today.
My dream is to write my way out of self tapes?
Speaker 2: But can people?
Speaker 1: Can people download your music though you have a lot
of songs on app, if they don't.
Speaker 3: Have back in going, I don't even know. Maybe they can.
I mean sometimes I find it, but I'm not getting
any dough from it somebody else's But maybe I'll get
that together. Wah.
Speaker 2: I'm going to look forward to that.
Speaker 1: I'm going to I'm going to post some of your songs.
But thank you, Kathleen, thank you super fun. I hope
it's okay, it's great.
Speaker 3: Okay, you mean like doctors guna largest gun. Yeah, thats
gonna lightest guning head yet in my dark It time
you got me