Speaker 1: What if the most fiercely guarded secrets weren't locked away
and steal vaults with armed guards, but instead concealed beneath
our very feet, shrouded in whispers and well, really unsettling tales.
Forget the desert legends you think, you know. We're venturing
upper to day into the shadowy heart of New Mexico
to a place that sparks a different kind of fear,
maybe a different kind of fascination. Dulce Base exactly.
Speaker 2: While the popular imagination often jumps straight to Area fifty
one when we talk about you know, clandst and government stuff,
the story is coming out of Dulce. There's something else. Yeah,
it's a small town near the Archiletta Mesa, and the
claims are just far more bizarre and honestly more persistent
over time.
Speaker 1: And it's not just recent history either, is it.
Speaker 2: Not at all. We're talking reports of strange things in
the sky going back centuries, way before modern aircraft. It
suggests something's been anomalous about that specific spot for a
long long time.
Speaker 1: And it's more than just like fleeting lights. For years,
there's been this consistent rumor mill, almost like an underground
Whisper network talking about a huge, multi level base burrowed
deep inside the Archiletta Mason right.
Speaker 2: Proof is well obviously elusive. That's the nature of these things.
Of course, what was compelling, as you said, is the
sheer number of different people, seemingly unconnected, who've described similar
things over decades. It makes you think something unusual is
going on there. Allege workers, security types, even people.
Speaker 1: Claiming they were held captive there. It's wild stuff.
Speaker 2: So our goal today really is to try and navigate
this whole tangled web. We'll look at the eyewitness accounts,
the supposed insider stories, even some official documents that hint
at well inconsistencies, let's say, things that defy easy answers.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're not here to definitively say yes, aliens in
New Mexico.
Speaker 2: Definitely not. It's more about understanding why this particular story,
this location has become such a powerful magnet for these tales.
Why does it resonate so much, the government secrecy, the
fear of the unknown, that big question, are we alone?
Speaker 1: Okay, So let's start with Dulce itself. The place. It's
just odd that it's the epicenter.
Speaker 2: Right, it really is it's not a big city, is
pretty isolated, huh, Yet it has this disproportionately high number
of UFO sightings reported over like we said, centuries.
Speaker 1: It does make you wonder is there something about the
geology the location could.
Speaker 2: Be, or maybe something magnetic. We don't know, But the
consistency across different eras is the really intriguing part. It
suggests it's not just misidentified planes or modern tech.
Speaker 1: Right, this long history of weird aerial stuff, and then
layered on top of that, you get these very specific
claims about a massive base under the ground right there.
Speaker 2: Of the archolda Mesa exactly, which leads us to something
really concrete or at least physically investigated. The animal mutilations
in nineteen seventy five.
Speaker 1: Ah, yes, the Dulce mutilations extremely disturbing.
Speaker 2: So a rancher finds a cow, but it's not just dead.
It looks like it's been surgically taken apart.
Speaker 1: Precise blood, completely drained, specific organs removed with incredible precision,
not like any predator kill anyone had ever seen. And
the scene itself was just as weird. These tripod like
tracks scorched earth and this strange yellow oily stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, those details are bizarre. And Officer Gabe Beldz, the
local police officer who investigated, he took it very seriously.
Speaker 1: He wasn't just writing it off, not at all.
Speaker 2: He documented things like the total lack of decomposition, which
was weird, missing organs specifically lymphtodes, sometimes blood that wouldn't
clot properly.
Speaker 1: And radiation. Didn't he ditize elevated radiation levels.
Speaker 2: He did later on. Yeah, it all pointed to something
incredibly strange. And then you hear that doctor Howard Burgess
from Sandya National Labs, a major scientific institution, was apparently
baffled too.
Speaker 1: And this wasn't just one cow oh.
Speaker 2: No, this kicked off a wave. Thousands of similar mutilations
reported across the region. Some estimates put it around eight
thousand cases.
Speaker 1: Eight thousand. That's that's staggering. It's not just isolated weirdness.
Speaker 2: It's a pattern, but deeply unsettling pattern. And yet the
official FBI report basically concluded, what was it.
Speaker 1: Consistent with predator action and no federal interest in continuing
an investigation?
Speaker 2: Right, which, given the surgical precision, the drain blood, the tracks,
the radiation It just seems completely inadequate. It feels like
a brush off.
Speaker 1: What kind of creditor does that. It creates this vacuum,
doesn't it If the official explanation makes no.
Speaker 2: Sense exactly, That lack of a credible official answer is
like fertilizer for alternative theories. People start looking elsewhere for explanations,
and that's where the stories about secret projects or even
aliens really started to gain traction. Around Dulcy. The mutilations
became key evidence for a lot of.
Speaker 1: People, which brings us kind of naturally to Paul Benowitz.
Speaker 2: Ah. Benoit's a crucial figure in this.
Speaker 1: Whole saga, and he had credentials electronics expert, worked with
the Air Force, NASA clients, lived right near Kurland Air
Force Base in Albuquerque.
Speaker 2: And Kirkland isn't just any base. It's huge, as you mentioned,
biggest nuclear weapons storage site in the West, underground bunkers
in the Manzano Mountains. It's deeply embedded in the national
security apparatus.
Speaker 1: So Benowitz, with his background and location, starts noticing strange
things in the sky near Kirtland.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he starts documenting them, taking photos. But also
crucially claiming to intercept unusual radio signals, signals he thought
might be well alien communication.
Speaker 1: He got involved with UFO groups too, right like apr
O he did.
Speaker 2: He approached it seriously, methodically, and later he connects with
Officer gave Valdez, the guy investigating the mutilations.
Speaker 1: So the sky phenomena and the ground phenomena start to
link up through these two guys.
Speaker 2: Pretty much two credible people looking at different parts of
this weird puzzle, both sent around this Kirtland Dulce area.
Speaker 1: Okay, then the story takes another really dark turn with
Myrna Hanson in nineteen eighty.
Speaker 2: Yes, the Hanson abduction case very disturbing account.
Speaker 1: She's driving with her son, sees UFOs and sees a
cow being levitated into one.
Speaker 2: That's the initial report. Then missing time wakes up back
in the car, hours gone, memory gaps under hypnosis, under
regressive hypnosis. Yes, and we should always add the caveat
about hypnosis potentially creating false memories. But the story that
emerged was terrifying abduction by gray aliens. A physical exam
she described as violating.
Speaker 1: And they apparently told her it was an accident they
grabbed her, but they'd proceed anyway.
Speaker 2: That's what she recounted. Yes, a chilling detail.
Speaker 1: But the thing that seemed to offer some kind of
potential proof was the implant claim.
Speaker 2: Right. She claimed they put a device in her base
at the Skull for tracking or control, and an X
ray later at Lovelace Medical Center did show something unusual there.
Speaker 1: Though the doctors thought it was natural.
Speaker 2: They considered it a natural growth, yes, but the fact
that something was there where she said it was it
added this layer of unsettling ambiguity. It wasn't easily dismissed.
Speaker 1: And didn't she draw pictures of the base claimed she
was taken to.
Speaker 2: She did, and later Richard Doty, who we now know
was involved in disinformation, reportedly told someone these drawings look
like the Manzano weapons complex near Kirtland h.
Speaker 1: Dody. Again, that complicates.
Speaker 2: Things immensely, but at the time that alleged connection seemed huge.
It linked her personal abduction story directly to a known
secure underground facility. It really fanned the flames.
Speaker 1: Okay, so we have mutilations, aerial sightings, abduction claims, and
then Phil Schneider bursts onto the scene.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Schneider takes it to a whole new level. He
didn't just see the base, he claimed, he helped build it.
Speaker 1: At the Preparedness Expo in ninety five, he lays out
this incredible story. A massive base, three cubic miles underground, multiple.
Speaker 2: Levels, tunnels, and this absolutely shocking incident in nineteen seventy
nine during drilling, the Battle of Dulce, that's what he
called it. He claimed his team accidentally break into an
existing alien base deep underground.
Speaker 1: And then a firefight with aliens.
Speaker 2: With, according to him, seven foot tall gray aliens. He
claimed he was hit by some kind of plasma weapon,
lost fingers, got cancer from it later, and that sixty
six humans died in the clash.
Speaker 1: Sixty six people. It's just staggering.
Speaker 2: It's an absolutely extraordinary claim. And he didn't stop there.
He said this battle led the US government to forge
a secret treaty with these aliens.
Speaker 1: The treaty involved, well, it was a tech.
Speaker 2: Exchange, advanced alien tech traded for access to humans for experiments,
all supposedly overseen by the legendary Majestic twelve.
Speaker 1: Group, And the details he gave about the alien's motives
were pretty horrifying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, really dark, he claimed there were nine alien races involved,
and they viewed humans essentially as a resource, not for
food exactly, but for glandular secretions adrenaline.
Speaker 1: He mentioned things like creating viruses, aids specifically for population control,
and a leaming alien takeover.
Speaker 2: He did it was a full blown, almost apocalyptic conspiracy.
He was laying out advanced tech way beyond ours plans
for population reduction.
Speaker 1: And he seemed genuinely afraid for his life. He kept
saying his death wouldn't be a suicide.
Speaker 2: He absolutely did, mentioned government surveillance, friends and colleagues dying mysteriously.
He presented himself as a mark man blowing the.
Speaker 1: Whistle, which makes his death in nineteen ninety six well
extremely suspicious.
Speaker 2: Deeply suspicious. The official ruling was suicide, but the details
just don't sit right for many people. The medical tube
wrapped around his neck multiple times and tied given his
physical limitations.
Speaker 1: No suicide note found initially.
Speaker 2: His papers and materials reportedly went missing. The medical examiners
reported reluctance to investigate further. It all raises serious questions.
Regardless of what you think about his Dulce claims his
death itself is an unsettling mystery.
Speaker 1: Okay, so after Schneider's bombshells, we get another supposed insider,
Thomas Costello right.
Speaker 2: Castello was allegedly a military photographer top secret clearance, claimed
he actually worked at Dulcie Base.
Speaker 1: And he supposedly smuggled things out in eighty seven the
Dulci papers.
Speaker 2: That's the claim, documents, photos, even videotape, apparently to expose
what was happening. He said the cover story was it
being a try biotransfer facility.
Speaker 1: Whatever that means just sounds like jargon to hide something.
Speaker 2: Probably the intention. And his most famous piece of evidence
was that photo.
Speaker 1: The one with people in pods. That image is incredibly creepy.
Speaker 2: It is, he claimed it showed humans and cloning vats
basically used for harvesting hormones or something similar.
Speaker 1: And he laid up the whole base level by.
Speaker 2: Level, supposedly seven levels, getting progressively weirder as you go down,
security housing labs than mind control, alien housing, genetic experiments
with human animal hybrids dazoo. Seriously, that's what he claimed.
And the deepest level was cryogenics and coal storage. He
even could number on the alien population there over eighteen thousand.
Speaker 1: Eighteen thousand aliens working underground in New Mexico, and he
mentioned different types.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a ruling cast he called the Draco reptilian types,
and then worker casts including humans and other alien races
Draco supposedly created. Is It's an incredibly detailed and frankly
outlandish narrative.
Speaker 1: It is. But there's a major problem with Castello's evidence.
Isn't there that photo?
Speaker 2: Ah, yes, the big one, that famous disturbing photo of
humans and pods. It's been definitively identified. It's a movie
still from which movie? The Sixth Day? The Armed Schwarzenegger
sci fi movie.
Speaker 1: Oh wow? Kind of blows a huge hung in his story,
doesn't it.
Speaker 2: It really does. It casts enormous doubt on the authenticity
of the Dulcy papers and everything else. He claimed. If
your main piece of visual proof is fake, yeah.
Speaker 1: It makes you question the entire testimony. Why use a
movie still? Was it deliberate deception or was he misled somehow?
Either way, it damages his credibility massively, hugely.
Speaker 2: And on top of that, investigators have never found any
official records of a. Thomas Costello serving in the US
military in the capacity he described during that timeframe.
Speaker 1: No record of him existing basically in that role.
Speaker 2: Seems that way, which adds another layer of doubt.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's shift to another prominent voice in this whole thing,
John Lear.
Speaker 2: John Lear, record breaking pilot, son of the lerjet inventor
Bill Lear. Definitely an interesting figure.
Speaker 1: And he apparently had some CIA connections, flying cargo planes
for them.
Speaker 2: That's been reported. Yes, adds a layer of intrigue to
his later claims. His interest in UFOs apparently really took
off after the rendelschrom Forest incident, and he.
Speaker 1: Put out this document in eighty eight UFO cover Up.
Speaker 2: Yes, a very influential document in UFO circles at the time.
He detailed this vast government conspiracy involving aliens, and he
specifically named Dulci. Bass claimed he had four independent sources
confirming it.
Speaker 1: What was Lear's general take on the aliens themselves? Friendly?
Speaker 2: Hostile? Definitely not friendly in his view. He believed multiple
alien civilizations were visiting, maybe five to ten, and most
were hostile or just had totally different, incompatible morals.
Speaker 1: He had that theory about them trying to regenerate their
own race, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2: A really disturbing idea that they suffered some pass catastrope
and we're trying to fix their genetics by cross breeding
with humans. He referenced Bud Hopkins's abduction research claims about
women gestating hybrid fetuses ram stuff very grim. His advice
was basically, if you see a flying saucer run like hell.
That pretty much sums up his perspective.
Speaker 1: And he believed the government knew everything since forty seven
Roswell and Magdalena.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, he was convinced of a massive ongoing cover up
since the very beginning of the modern UFO era.
Speaker 1: Okay, so we've heard these incredible stories from Schneider, Castello, Lear,
but now we need to step back and really examine
the sources and the claims critically.
Speaker 2: Absolutely crucial, And when you look closely at Phil Schneider,
for instance, yes, he worked as a government contractor. That
seems verifiable, but inconsistencies pop up in his story, like
what well his descriptions of military protocols, the specific units
he claims were involved in the Battle of Dulce, they
don't always quite match up with how things actually work.
Even details about his own life, like exactly how he
got that hand injury, or parts of his father's biography.
The story sometimes.
Speaker 1: Shifted, details changing over time exactly.
Speaker 2: It doesn't automatically mean he was lying about everything. Maybe
memory gets distorted by trauma, maybe there was some embellishment.
But the factual errors do raise questions about the reliability
of the really extraordinary parts, like the firefight with aliens.
Speaker 1: And we have to delicately mention his documented mental health history.
Speaker 2: Yes, that is documented. It's impossible to know how much,
if at all, it influenced his perceptions or beliefs, especially
regarding something as extreme as paranoid delusions about government conspiracies
and aliens, but it has to be considered as a
possible factor.
Speaker 1: Though again, the circumstances of his death remain.
Speaker 2: Very strange, very strange. That's a separate issue from the
veracity of his claims, but it adds to the overall
unease surrounding his story.
Speaker 1: Now, what about the origin of the dulcet based story itself.
It didn't just appear with Schneider, did it.
Speaker 2: No. It seems to have roots that go back further,
and while they're kind of murky, sources point to a
guy named James Bishop. Maybe also known as Tale Livesque,
who had this newsletter in the seventies called the Hollow Earth.
Speaker 1: Hassle Hollow Earth.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, And apparently that newsletter drew heavily from the
Shaver mystery stories, which were pure science fiction about underground races.
Speaker 1: So the early seeds might have been planted in fiction.
Speaker 2: It looks that way. And then another figure, and West
is said to have basically created the Thomas Costello persona,
perhaps using information from Duesque.
Speaker 1: Which would explain why there are no official records of Costello.
He might never have been a real person in that role.
Speaker 2: It's a strong possibility. It suggests the Dulce narrative wasn't
one clear account, but something that evolved, maybe mutated over time,
different people adding bits, possibly based on fiction, maybe misinterpretations.
Speaker 1: And then you throw in someone like Richard Doty.
Speaker 2: Oh. Absolutely. Dotie's confirmed involvement in Air Force disinformation campaigns
target people like Paul Benowitz is key. He reportedly validated
the underground base idea to Benowitz, even confirmed MYRNA Hansen's
drawings resembled the Manzano complex.
Speaker 1: But he was feeding them bad info.
Speaker 2: That was his job, apparently to confuse UFO researchers, his
later statements about whether any of it was true or
completely contradictory. It just makes everything incredibly muddy. You can't
trust anything he confirmed back then, and John.
Speaker 1: Lear his potential intelligence connections add another wrinkle.
Speaker 2: Right. Bill Moore, another researcher who admitted to spreading disinformation himself,
claimed Lear was an intelligence agent. Lear's own work with
the CIA makes that plausible, though not proven.
Speaker 1: So was Lear spreading truth, disinformation, or his own beliefs.
It's impossible to know for sure exactly.
Speaker 2: It highlights the huge challenge in researching these fringe topics.
You have unverifiable claims, known disinformation agents involved, potential psychological factors,
and a lack of any mainstream validation or hard evidence.
Speaker 1: It's like a hall of mirrors, it really is.
Speaker 2: And you have to wonder if that confusion isn't to
some extent exactly what certain government elements might prefer keep
it murky, keep people guessing, dismiss it all as nonsense.
Speaker 1: So, coming out of this deep dive on Dulca base,
what are we left with? It's this incredibly tangled mess,
isn't it.
Speaker 2: It's complex web, definitely alleged eyewitnesses, supposed insiders, strange physical
evidence like the mutilations, but all tangled up with potential hoaxes,
disinformation shifting stories, and psychological elements.
Speaker 1: You've journeyed with us through these really chilling tales, alien firefights,
underground labs, abduction claims, government cover ups.
Speaker 2: It's a narrative landscape filled with fascinating, often contradictory figures
and this persistent sense that maybe, just maybe something truly
extraordinary is hidden just out of sight.
Speaker 1: So you have to think about the motivations here. Why
do these stories persist so strongly. Is it just our
need for answers about the unknown, our deep seated distrust
of government secrecy.
Speaker 2: Or is it tapping into genuine anxieties about control, about technology,
about our place in the universe. Could there be a
kernel of truth buried under all the noise, deliberately obscured.
Speaker 1: What does the sheer endurance of the Dulcei myth, despite
all the inconsistencies and lack of proof, tell us about ourselves,
about how we relate to secrecy, authority, and the possibility
of things far stranger than our everyday lives.
Speaker 2: Maybe, as you go about your day. Now you look
at the world a little differently, you might wonder what
really lies beneath the surface, both literally under the ground
and figuratively behind the official stories we're told.
Speaker 1: The Dulcine Enigma, whether it's a real place of secrets
or a powerful modern myth, certainly reminds us that there
might be far more mysteries out there than we usually acknowledge.