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Speaker 1: What if the most fiercely guarded secrets weren't locked away

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and steal vaults with armed guards, but instead concealed beneath

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our very feet, shrouded in whispers and well, really unsettling tales.

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Forget the desert legends you think, you know. We're venturing

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upper to day into the shadowy heart of New Mexico

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to a place that sparks a different kind of fear,

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maybe a different kind of fascination. Dulce Base exactly.

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Speaker 2: While the popular imagination often jumps straight to Area fifty

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one when we talk about you know, clandst and government stuff,

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the story is coming out of Dulce. There's something else. Yeah,

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it's a small town near the Archiletta Mesa, and the

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claims are just far more bizarre and honestly more persistent

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over time.

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Speaker 1: And it's not just recent history either, is it.

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Speaker 2: Not at all. We're talking reports of strange things in

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the sky going back centuries, way before modern aircraft. It

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suggests something's been anomalous about that specific spot for a

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long long time.

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Speaker 1: And it's more than just like fleeting lights. For years,

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there's been this consistent rumor mill, almost like an underground

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Whisper network talking about a huge, multi level base burrowed

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deep inside the Archiletta Mason right.

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Speaker 2: Proof is well obviously elusive. That's the nature of these things.

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Of course, what was compelling, as you said, is the

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sheer number of different people, seemingly unconnected, who've described similar

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things over decades. It makes you think something unusual is

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going on there. Allege workers, security types, even people.

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Speaker 1: Claiming they were held captive there. It's wild stuff.

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Speaker 2: So our goal today really is to try and navigate

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this whole tangled web. We'll look at the eyewitness accounts,

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the supposed insider stories, even some official documents that hint

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at well inconsistencies, let's say, things that defy easy answers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're not here to definitively say yes, aliens in

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New Mexico.

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Speaker 2: Definitely not. It's more about understanding why this particular story,

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this location has become such a powerful magnet for these tales.

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Why does it resonate so much, the government secrecy, the

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fear of the unknown, that big question, are we alone?

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Speaker 1: Okay, So let's start with Dulce itself. The place. It's

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just odd that it's the epicenter.

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Speaker 2: Right, it really is it's not a big city, is

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pretty isolated, huh, Yet it has this disproportionately high number

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of UFO sightings reported over like we said, centuries.

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Speaker 1: It does make you wonder is there something about the

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geology the location could.

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Speaker 2: Be, or maybe something magnetic. We don't know, But the

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consistency across different eras is the really intriguing part. It

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suggests it's not just misidentified planes or modern tech.

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Speaker 1: Right, this long history of weird aerial stuff, and then

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layered on top of that, you get these very specific

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claims about a massive base under the ground right there.

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Speaker 2: Of the archolda Mesa exactly, which leads us to something

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really concrete or at least physically investigated. The animal mutilations

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in nineteen seventy five.

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Speaker 1: Ah, yes, the Dulce mutilations extremely disturbing.

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Speaker 2: So a rancher finds a cow, but it's not just dead.

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It looks like it's been surgically taken apart.

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Speaker 1: Precise blood, completely drained, specific organs removed with incredible precision,

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not like any predator kill anyone had ever seen. And

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the scene itself was just as weird. These tripod like

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tracks scorched earth and this strange yellow oily stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, those details are bizarre. And Officer Gabe Beldz, the

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local police officer who investigated, he took it very seriously.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't just writing it off, not at all.

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Speaker 2: He documented things like the total lack of decomposition, which

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was weird, missing organs specifically lymphtodes, sometimes blood that wouldn't

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clot properly.

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Speaker 1: And radiation. Didn't he ditize elevated radiation levels.

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Speaker 2: He did later on. Yeah, it all pointed to something

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incredibly strange. And then you hear that doctor Howard Burgess

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from Sandya National Labs, a major scientific institution, was apparently

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baffled too.

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Speaker 1: And this wasn't just one cow oh.

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Speaker 2: No, this kicked off a wave. Thousands of similar mutilations

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reported across the region. Some estimates put it around eight

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thousand cases.

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Speaker 1: Eight thousand. That's that's staggering. It's not just isolated weirdness.

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Speaker 2: It's a pattern, but deeply unsettling pattern. And yet the

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official FBI report basically concluded, what was it.

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Speaker 1: Consistent with predator action and no federal interest in continuing

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an investigation?

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Speaker 2: Right, which, given the surgical precision, the drain blood, the tracks,

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the radiation It just seems completely inadequate. It feels like

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a brush off.

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Speaker 1: What kind of creditor does that. It creates this vacuum,

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doesn't it If the official explanation makes no.

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Speaker 2: Sense exactly, That lack of a credible official answer is

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like fertilizer for alternative theories. People start looking elsewhere for explanations,

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and that's where the stories about secret projects or even

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aliens really started to gain traction. Around Dulcy. The mutilations

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became key evidence for a lot of.

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Speaker 1: People, which brings us kind of naturally to Paul Benowitz.

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Speaker 2: Ah. Benoit's a crucial figure in this.

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Speaker 1: Whole saga, and he had credentials electronics expert, worked with

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the Air Force, NASA clients, lived right near Kurland Air

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Force Base in Albuquerque.

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Speaker 2: And Kirkland isn't just any base. It's huge, as you mentioned,

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biggest nuclear weapons storage site in the West, underground bunkers

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in the Manzano Mountains. It's deeply embedded in the national

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security apparatus.

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Speaker 1: So Benowitz, with his background and location, starts noticing strange

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things in the sky near Kirtland.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and he starts documenting them, taking photos. But also

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crucially claiming to intercept unusual radio signals, signals he thought

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might be well alien communication.

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Speaker 1: He got involved with UFO groups too, right like apr

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O he did.

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Speaker 2: He approached it seriously, methodically, and later he connects with

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Officer gave Valdez, the guy investigating the mutilations.

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Speaker 1: So the sky phenomena and the ground phenomena start to

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link up through these two guys.

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Speaker 2: Pretty much two credible people looking at different parts of

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this weird puzzle, both sent around this Kirtland Dulce area.

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Speaker 1: Okay, then the story takes another really dark turn with

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Myrna Hanson in nineteen eighty.

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Speaker 2: Yes, the Hanson abduction case very disturbing account.

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Speaker 1: She's driving with her son, sees UFOs and sees a

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cow being levitated into one.

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Speaker 2: That's the initial report. Then missing time wakes up back

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in the car, hours gone, memory gaps under hypnosis, under

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regressive hypnosis. Yes, and we should always add the caveat

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about hypnosis potentially creating false memories. But the story that

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emerged was terrifying abduction by gray aliens. A physical exam

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she described as violating.

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Speaker 1: And they apparently told her it was an accident they

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grabbed her, but they'd proceed anyway.

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Speaker 2: That's what she recounted. Yes, a chilling detail.

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Speaker 1: But the thing that seemed to offer some kind of

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potential proof was the implant claim.

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Speaker 2: Right. She claimed they put a device in her base

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at the Skull for tracking or control, and an X

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ray later at Lovelace Medical Center did show something unusual there.

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Speaker 1: Though the doctors thought it was natural.

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Speaker 2: They considered it a natural growth, yes, but the fact

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that something was there where she said it was it

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added this layer of unsettling ambiguity. It wasn't easily dismissed.

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Speaker 1: And didn't she draw pictures of the base claimed she

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was taken to.

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Speaker 2: She did, and later Richard Doty, who we now know

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was involved in disinformation, reportedly told someone these drawings look

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like the Manzano weapons complex near Kirtland h.

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Speaker 1: Dody. Again, that complicates.

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Speaker 2: Things immensely, but at the time that alleged connection seemed huge.

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It linked her personal abduction story directly to a known

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secure underground facility. It really fanned the flames.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so we have mutilations, aerial sightings, abduction claims, and

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then Phil Schneider bursts onto the scene.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Schneider takes it to a whole new level. He

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didn't just see the base, he claimed, he helped build it.

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Speaker 1: At the Preparedness Expo in ninety five, he lays out

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this incredible story. A massive base, three cubic miles underground, multiple.

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Speaker 2: Levels, tunnels, and this absolutely shocking incident in nineteen seventy

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nine during drilling, the Battle of Dulce, that's what he

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called it. He claimed his team accidentally break into an

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existing alien base deep underground.

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Speaker 1: And then a firefight with aliens.

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Speaker 2: With, according to him, seven foot tall gray aliens. He

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claimed he was hit by some kind of plasma weapon,

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lost fingers, got cancer from it later, and that sixty

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six humans died in the clash.

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Speaker 1: Sixty six people. It's just staggering.

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Speaker 2: It's an absolutely extraordinary claim. And he didn't stop there.

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He said this battle led the US government to forge

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a secret treaty with these aliens.

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Speaker 1: The treaty involved, well, it was a tech.

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Speaker 2: Exchange, advanced alien tech traded for access to humans for experiments,

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all supposedly overseen by the legendary Majestic twelve.

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Speaker 1: Group, And the details he gave about the alien's motives

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were pretty horrifying.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, really dark, he claimed there were nine alien races involved,

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and they viewed humans essentially as a resource, not for

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food exactly, but for glandular secretions adrenaline.

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Speaker 1: He mentioned things like creating viruses, aids specifically for population control,

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and a leaming alien takeover.

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Speaker 2: He did it was a full blown, almost apocalyptic conspiracy.

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He was laying out advanced tech way beyond ours plans

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for population reduction.

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Speaker 1: And he seemed genuinely afraid for his life. He kept

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saying his death wouldn't be a suicide.

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Speaker 2: He absolutely did, mentioned government surveillance, friends and colleagues dying mysteriously.

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He presented himself as a mark man blowing the.

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Speaker 1: Whistle, which makes his death in nineteen ninety six well

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extremely suspicious.

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Speaker 2: Deeply suspicious. The official ruling was suicide, but the details

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just don't sit right for many people. The medical tube

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wrapped around his neck multiple times and tied given his

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physical limitations.

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Speaker 1: No suicide note found initially.

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Speaker 2: His papers and materials reportedly went missing. The medical examiners

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reported reluctance to investigate further. It all raises serious questions.

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Regardless of what you think about his Dulce claims his

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death itself is an unsettling mystery.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so after Schneider's bombshells, we get another supposed insider,

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Thomas Costello right.

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Speaker 2: Castello was allegedly a military photographer top secret clearance, claimed

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he actually worked at Dulcie Base.

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Speaker 1: And he supposedly smuggled things out in eighty seven the

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Dulci papers.

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Speaker 2: That's the claim, documents, photos, even videotape, apparently to expose

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what was happening. He said the cover story was it

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being a try biotransfer facility.

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Speaker 1: Whatever that means just sounds like jargon to hide something.

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Speaker 2: Probably the intention. And his most famous piece of evidence

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was that photo.

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Speaker 1: The one with people in pods. That image is incredibly creepy.

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Speaker 2: It is, he claimed it showed humans and cloning vats

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basically used for harvesting hormones or something similar.

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Speaker 1: And he laid up the whole base level by.

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Speaker 2: Level, supposedly seven levels, getting progressively weirder as you go down,

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security housing labs than mind control, alien housing, genetic experiments

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with human animal hybrids dazoo. Seriously, that's what he claimed.

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And the deepest level was cryogenics and coal storage. He

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even could number on the alien population there over eighteen thousand.

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Speaker 1: Eighteen thousand aliens working underground in New Mexico, and he

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mentioned different types.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a ruling cast he called the Draco reptilian types,

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and then worker casts including humans and other alien races

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Draco supposedly created. Is It's an incredibly detailed and frankly

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outlandish narrative.

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Speaker 1: It is. But there's a major problem with Castello's evidence.

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Isn't there that photo?

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Speaker 2: Ah, yes, the big one, that famous disturbing photo of

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humans and pods. It's been definitively identified. It's a movie

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still from which movie? The Sixth Day? The Armed Schwarzenegger

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sci fi movie.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow? Kind of blows a huge hung in his story,

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doesn't it.

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Speaker 2: It really does. It casts enormous doubt on the authenticity

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of the Dulcy papers and everything else. He claimed. If

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your main piece of visual proof is fake, yeah.

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Speaker 1: It makes you question the entire testimony. Why use a

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movie still? Was it deliberate deception or was he misled somehow?

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Either way, it damages his credibility massively, hugely.

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Speaker 2: And on top of that, investigators have never found any

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official records of a. Thomas Costello serving in the US

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military in the capacity he described during that timeframe.

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Speaker 1: No record of him existing basically in that role.

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Speaker 2: Seems that way, which adds another layer of doubt.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's shift to another prominent voice in this whole thing,

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John Lear.

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Speaker 2: John Lear, record breaking pilot, son of the lerjet inventor

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Bill Lear. Definitely an interesting figure.

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Speaker 1: And he apparently had some CIA connections, flying cargo planes

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for them.

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Speaker 2: That's been reported. Yes, adds a layer of intrigue to

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his later claims. His interest in UFOs apparently really took

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off after the rendelschrom Forest incident, and he.

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Speaker 1: Put out this document in eighty eight UFO cover Up.

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Speaker 2: Yes, a very influential document in UFO circles at the time.

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He detailed this vast government conspiracy involving aliens, and he

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specifically named Dulci. Bass claimed he had four independent sources

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confirming it.

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Speaker 1: What was Lear's general take on the aliens themselves? Friendly?

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Speaker 2: Hostile? Definitely not friendly in his view. He believed multiple

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alien civilizations were visiting, maybe five to ten, and most

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were hostile or just had totally different, incompatible morals.

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Speaker 1: He had that theory about them trying to regenerate their

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own race, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: A really disturbing idea that they suffered some pass catastrope

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and we're trying to fix their genetics by cross breeding

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with humans. He referenced Bud Hopkins's abduction research claims about

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women gestating hybrid fetuses ram stuff very grim. His advice

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was basically, if you see a flying saucer run like hell.

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That pretty much sums up his perspective.

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Speaker 1: And he believed the government knew everything since forty seven

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Roswell and Magdalena.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, he was convinced of a massive ongoing cover up

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since the very beginning of the modern UFO era.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so we've heard these incredible stories from Schneider, Castello, Lear,

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but now we need to step back and really examine

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the sources and the claims critically.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely crucial, And when you look closely at Phil Schneider,

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for instance, yes, he worked as a government contractor. That

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seems verifiable, but inconsistencies pop up in his story, like

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what well his descriptions of military protocols, the specific units

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he claims were involved in the Battle of Dulce, they

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don't always quite match up with how things actually work.

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Even details about his own life, like exactly how he

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got that hand injury, or parts of his father's biography.

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The story sometimes.

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Speaker 1: Shifted, details changing over time exactly.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't automatically mean he was lying about everything. Maybe

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memory gets distorted by trauma, maybe there was some embellishment.

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But the factual errors do raise questions about the reliability

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of the really extraordinary parts, like the firefight with aliens.

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Speaker 1: And we have to delicately mention his documented mental health history.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that is documented. It's impossible to know how much,

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if at all, it influenced his perceptions or beliefs, especially

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regarding something as extreme as paranoid delusions about government conspiracies

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and aliens, but it has to be considered as a

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possible factor.

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Speaker 1: Though again, the circumstances of his death remain.

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Speaker 2: Very strange, very strange. That's a separate issue from the

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veracity of his claims, but it adds to the overall

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unease surrounding his story.

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Speaker 1: Now, what about the origin of the dulcet based story itself.

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It didn't just appear with Schneider, did it.

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Speaker 2: No. It seems to have roots that go back further,

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and while they're kind of murky, sources point to a

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guy named James Bishop. Maybe also known as Tale Livesque,

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who had this newsletter in the seventies called the Hollow Earth.

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Speaker 1: Hassle Hollow Earth.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, And apparently that newsletter drew heavily from the

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Shaver mystery stories, which were pure science fiction about underground races.

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Speaker 1: So the early seeds might have been planted in fiction.

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Speaker 2: It looks that way. And then another figure, and West

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is said to have basically created the Thomas Costello persona,

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perhaps using information from Duesque.

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Speaker 1: Which would explain why there are no official records of Costello.

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He might never have been a real person in that role.

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Speaker 2: It's a strong possibility. It suggests the Dulce narrative wasn't

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one clear account, but something that evolved, maybe mutated over time,

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different people adding bits, possibly based on fiction, maybe misinterpretations.

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Speaker 1: And then you throw in someone like Richard Doty.

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Speaker 2: Oh. Absolutely. Dotie's confirmed involvement in Air Force disinformation campaigns

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target people like Paul Benowitz is key. He reportedly validated

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the underground base idea to Benowitz, even confirmed MYRNA Hansen's

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drawings resembled the Manzano complex.

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Speaker 1: But he was feeding them bad info.

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Speaker 2: That was his job, apparently to confuse UFO researchers, his

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later statements about whether any of it was true or

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completely contradictory. It just makes everything incredibly muddy. You can't

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trust anything he confirmed back then, and John.

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Speaker 1: Lear his potential intelligence connections add another wrinkle.

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Speaker 2: Right. Bill Moore, another researcher who admitted to spreading disinformation himself,

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claimed Lear was an intelligence agent. Lear's own work with

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the CIA makes that plausible, though not proven.

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Speaker 1: So was Lear spreading truth, disinformation, or his own beliefs.

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It's impossible to know for sure exactly.

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Speaker 2: It highlights the huge challenge in researching these fringe topics.

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You have unverifiable claims, known disinformation agents involved, potential psychological factors,

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and a lack of any mainstream validation or hard evidence.

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Speaker 1: It's like a hall of mirrors, it really is.

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Speaker 2: And you have to wonder if that confusion isn't to

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some extent exactly what certain government elements might prefer keep

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it murky, keep people guessing, dismiss it all as nonsense.

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Speaker 1: So, coming out of this deep dive on Dulca base,

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what are we left with? It's this incredibly tangled mess,

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isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It's complex web, definitely alleged eyewitnesses, supposed insiders, strange physical

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evidence like the mutilations, but all tangled up with potential hoaxes,

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disinformation shifting stories, and psychological elements.

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Speaker 1: You've journeyed with us through these really chilling tales, alien firefights,

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underground labs, abduction claims, government cover ups.

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Speaker 2: It's a narrative landscape filled with fascinating, often contradictory figures

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and this persistent sense that maybe, just maybe something truly

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extraordinary is hidden just out of sight.

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Speaker 1: So you have to think about the motivations here. Why

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do these stories persist so strongly. Is it just our

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need for answers about the unknown, our deep seated distrust

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of government secrecy.

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Speaker 2: Or is it tapping into genuine anxieties about control, about technology,

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about our place in the universe. Could there be a

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kernel of truth buried under all the noise, deliberately obscured.

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Speaker 1: What does the sheer endurance of the Dulcei myth, despite

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all the inconsistencies and lack of proof, tell us about ourselves,

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about how we relate to secrecy, authority, and the possibility

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of things far stranger than our everyday lives.

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Speaker 2: Maybe, as you go about your day. Now you look

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at the world a little differently, you might wonder what

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really lies beneath the surface, both literally under the ground

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and figuratively behind the official stories we're told.

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Speaker 1: The Dulcine Enigma, whether it's a real place of secrets

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or a powerful modern myth, certainly reminds us that there

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might be far more mysteries out there than we usually acknowledge.