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Speaker 1: Understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,

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an idea.

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Speaker 2: The population of atheists this country is going through.

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Speaker 1: The rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If

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I tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth,

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not because I put my hand on a book and

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made a wish and working together for a more rational world.

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Speaker 2: Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness.

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Truth Usian wisdom will come to you that way.

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Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the

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Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.

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Speaker 2: What you are about to hear is one of the

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most compelling, fascinating, entertaining conversations about the Bible that I

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have ever been a part of. And I've been doing

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this for eight hundred sum shows over sixteen whatever years,

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and I mean seriously, so freaking good. I was going

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to go an hour and it turned out to be

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double that. So I've divided the show into two halves.

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This is part one, with Part two releasing in just

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a few days. Coming through the Old Testament, often bouncing

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into the New Testament and back, we are deconstructing, debunking,

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and just learning about what the Bible is and what

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it isn't, So buckle up. We've talked so much recently

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about politics, christian nationalism, brain psychology, smart technology. Today I

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want to get back to basics. I want to talk

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about the Bible or the bump in the Bible. Who

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better to do that than Justin DZ Deconstruction Zone. Hi,

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justin first time on the show man. I'm glad to

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have you, Seth.

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Speaker 3: I'm thrilled to be here. You're a household name in

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these circles, so I'm happy to you said something about

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schlepping at some point, you're schlepping with me. At this point, I.

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Speaker 2: Was thanking you for, like, you know, joining me on

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the broadcast when I have hosted or co hosted the

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line with you, I said back, and I'm you know,

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I thought I had a pretty good beat on the Bible,

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and I do, but you are able to really get

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specific chapter and verse, which is why I thought you

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would be perfect for this conversation because a lot of

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our audience still engages with Bible believers or they're looking

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for a better tool set to help explain why the

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Bible is so problematic and why Christianity as a religion

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just really splinters at even the most cursory of examinations.

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I made a few notes of some stuff I wanted

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to get into before we get any further. Give everybody

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your background, introduce yourself. Well.

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Speaker 3: I actually formally have an education in engineering, so I

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worked twenty years as an austrial engineer. But when I

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was younger, I wanted to go into ministry. So when

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I finished that education, I went to Bible College and

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then seminary. I went to Bible College at Bethel University.

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But when I was there, because I'm a dinosaur now,

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when I was there, it was Bethel College, and then

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I went to seminary at Ashland Seminary in Ashland, Ohio.

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I specialized in the Old Testament. I know, most people

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go to school and they want to read the New Testament,

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they want to do all the theological work. I was much

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more interested in the relationship between the Old Testament and

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the New Testament. And ultimately it was my higher education

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that led me away from Christianity. It didn't lead me

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specifically into atheism. I came to that after the fact,

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but certainly I think reading the Bible, doing the textual criticism,

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doing the Hermoneutics, and you know, doing all the the

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real work of asking yourself, hey, is this like actually true?

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When I freed myself to ask that particular question, it

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was very difficult to go to the text and say

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that it was true. And so I had to get

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real with the data that I had, and that's why

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I left Christianity. And now I do deconstruction work on

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TikTok and YouTube, and I primarily focus on the book.

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And one of the reasons why I do that is

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because I think most people in the Christian variety have

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this idea that, well, the book is like sacred and perfect,

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and like we can trust that Jesus is the Messiah

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because of this book. The book is the evidence, right,

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But if the book is the evidence, it's not good evidence.

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Speaker 2: But justin if somebody is confronted with some of the

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contradictions or you know, the moral dilemmas that we see

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in the Old End, then New to Testament, don't they

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begin to drift out to it's not a religion, it's

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a relationship kind of thing. Jesus lives in my heart.

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Speaker 3: You absolutely get some of that. With the moral quandaries

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alone aren't usually going to cause a Christian to leave

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their faith. They were difficult for me when I was deconstructing.

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You know, I got to some of the common stuff

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like the slavery, the treatment of women, different things like that,

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the genocide, and you know what, as a Christian, you

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kind of make those moral qundries go away because you're like, well,

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that was God's judgment right now, it's not as clean

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as that. When you actually get down to reading the passages,

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it's not as clean as well. They needed to be punished.

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But for a lot of Christians, like they can get

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around that. Now, that's not true of all Christians. I

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knew some Christians who read about the moral atrocities and

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it was like, m it doesn't strike me as a

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God that's believable. But for me personally, I was somewhere

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in the middle of those two camps. I didn't really

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rationalize it, but I wasn't ready to throw the whole

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thing out because of it. For me, I was like,

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We're gonna put that on the shelf. Well, we'll address

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this later. This is a piece of the pie, but

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I'm not going to eat this piece just yet. I

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need to see the rest of it.

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Speaker 2: Isn't much of that a riff on divine command theory.

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I mean, whatever God wants to do, we are antswering

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his and farm who are we to question what he

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wants to do with it? So, I mean that's sort

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of a thought stopper right off the bat, right.

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Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely. And the problem with divine command theory is

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once you get to divine command theory, there's nothing that

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you can't justify with it, right, And I think that's

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the scary part with the religion.

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Speaker 2: If I made justin I guess I should do our

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due diligence, would you explain divine command theory for us?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? So there's this classic episode in Plato. He writes

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through the voice of Socrates, unless you think Socrates really

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spoke this, but he writes about the youth row dilemma

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where it's like what is good?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: So is do something because good because God spoke it?

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Or is something good because there's a subjective form of

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good and God can only speak what is objectively good?

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And so there's this big quandary about objective morals verse

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divine command theory. If God speaks it and it's good

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because God speaks it, well, then you have divine command theory.

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But if you actually have objective morals, what that means

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is that there's something outside of God that he has

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to abide by. He's like bound by it. And that's

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why most Christians don't realize it. They've been told by C. S.

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Lewis that they have objective morals, but they don't. What

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they actually have is divine command theory, which is it's

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good because God said it. Because once you posit the

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idea that there's something outside of God that he has

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to follow, well they get they can't get on board

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with that. But that's what objective morals are. Objective morals

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are completely stance independent, completely mind independent, even independent of

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God's mind.

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Speaker 2: And then we see a riff on that in Christian nationalism.

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They can just decide arbitrarily which of man's laws are wrong,

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and that they can ignore because God wants something greater,

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and of course they're cherry picking. I don't know if

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it's a is it like what Susan B. Anthony once said,

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I distrust people who say they know what God wants

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because it's so often aligns with their own desires.

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Speaker 3: Do you buy that justin Not only is that dangerous,

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but I don't think it fits with all of the

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classical models. So for example, even in Judaism, if you

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talk to a typical Jew today, they're okay with questioning God.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: It's really more of like Christianity adopted this authoritarian point

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of view where you can't question God. In number two,

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this person over here speaks for God, like this person

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is getting the divine revelation, or the Bible speaks perfectly

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for God. One of the two things. Not all Christians

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believe that the Bible's in errant, but most of them do.

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So this is this is just a recipe for a disaster.

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But it didn't always have to be that way.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: Classically, even in the period of the Greeks, in the Romans,

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they could question the gods like that. They could call

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into account somebody's behavior that's above the human realm. But

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we're we're in a dangerous spot right now where people

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are like, not only can you not question God, but

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I'm going to tell you what God said.

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Speaker 2: We go back to Genesis chapter one and two. I

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love the idea that God, who is the smartest being

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in the history of history, created this master plan, a

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divine blueprint made perfection just whispered his plan into existence,

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and within three chapters of Genesis it all goes to shit.

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I mean right.

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Speaker 3: Away, right away. And you know, the funniest thing is,

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like you may or may not have been to like

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the Creation Museum. One of my favorite things is at

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the Chriatian Museum. They've got this big hall of like

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the downfall of man, Like God made this beautiful thing

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and then man ruined it. And there's this big sign

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that said something along the lines of it wasn't supposed

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to be this way, but as preposterble if God designed

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it this way and knowing what it would do, and

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he could have designed it another way, and he's all knowing, well,

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then it was designed to be that way. Like he

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did it that way on purpose. He could have did

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it a different way. He could have did it without

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the tree. He could have did it without the snake.

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He could have made the desires of man just a

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little bit different. He could have changed the heart, because

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he's going to do that later, if you read the

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Hebrew Bible, He's going to change the heart of man

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later so that they don't have these evil desires. He

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could have done that from the very beginning there's so

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many solutions. But the reality is the way the modern

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Christian reads Genesis is fundamentally different from what the ancient did.

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The ancient this was a mythological tale. This wasn't supposed

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to be actual history. It takes a little bit of

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time for a mythology to get planted in the culture

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before people start to treat it like it's a religion.

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Speaker 2: The Creation Museum, I remember two big things about it, except,

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you know, the dinosaurs are the easy one. Beyond that,

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there's this big sign of Adam. You know, he's out

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there and he's tilling the earth, and there's a big

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sign that said that our sin is responsible for weeds.

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So there were no weeds in the Garden of Eden

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until the fall of Adam and Eve. And then there's

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a whole exhibit justifying incest. And I'm doing it from memory,

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but it was like, you know, essentially our DNA was

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purer back then. So God said, okay, I don't know,

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what do you think about incests justice.

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Speaker 3: So that's a real thing. And the problem for the

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Christian is that the Hebrew Bible forbids incests. If you

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go to Levitigus eighteen and Lavidigus twenty you'll find laws

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regarding this, and so then you have to ask yourself, like,

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if you believe that God's laws are objective, which they're not,

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but if you're a Christian, you think they are and

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that they're unchanging because if they're objective, they can't change.

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Unless you believe that objective morals can be relative, which

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they don't, then you've got a serious problem. How is

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it that God's unchanging objective moral law code says that

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you can do polygamy and you can do incests and

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stuff at some points, but then not at other points. Right,

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So this gets you again, This breaks the entire argument

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of objective morals because the morals are coming from God's

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mind and they change over time, which means you've got

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subjective relative morals. And that's the only way you can

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deal with this whole situation with incest. And it's also

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true that like listen, like, unless God was controlling the

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way your genes change with each successive generation, then the

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data we have today showing the dangerous effects of incest

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breeding would have been true. Then. The only way that

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it couldn't have been true then is if God put

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something in place and then removed it like God had

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a mechanism in the human body to keep the the

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DNA from not replicating in a deleterious way, and then

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when they fell, I guess he just removed that part.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people in this community love the irony

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of having a host with a biblical name, and for

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those who aren't exactly it's funny because some people will

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bring a Bible to a convention and they will say,

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would you sign my Bible? And what I do is

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I sort of flip over to the seventh or eighth page,

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and I find Seth in the Book of Genesis, and

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I circle at night. I say I'm on page seven

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and that I sign next to it. I like to

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tell people I'm the one of Adam and Eve's sons

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that was not involved in a homicide. It was always

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a good way to set that up. So let's get

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into canaan Abel. We're talking about incest with mom to

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populate the earth, or going to a different town that

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somehow existed to find whys you want to explain this

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whole dilemma for us.

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Speaker 3: This has always been a problem even for scholars. So

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if if Kine has to go east, to Nod and

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there's going to be people there. Where did they come from?

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The only way there could be people here is if

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one of two things happened. God created more than this

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small cluster of humans. He maybe he created some over here,

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Maybe he created some over there. And certainly there are

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Christians who believe that that's a real thing that Christians believe.

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But also there's the possibility that there are children of

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Eve and Adam that just don't get mentioned, right, so

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because they live for so long, the theory is that listen,

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there were other children that we don't learn about, especially

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because if you look at the lineages, most of the

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lineages don't include the girls. They mostly just include the men.

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And so without mention of the women, we could ask ourselves, Okay, well,

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maybe they had a whole bunch of girls that grew

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up to be women, and maybe there was some reproduction there.

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Maybe there was some brother on syste or reproduction that

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was enough to create some people. But the problem that

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that solution fails because when you like look at the

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problem with Cain, like Caine's concerned that there's gonna be

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like some sort of killing, like he's gonna go and

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because of what I've done, somebody's gonna murder me. But

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like the problem that you're gonna have with that is like, well,

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theoretically that person would have been like, you're a very

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near kin, right, Like they would have known the whole story.

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They would have like, I don't know how much time

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has to pass for you to not know like your

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brother or your half brother or your cousin. But it

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seems to me kind of preposterous to think that there's

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a bunch of people that are related to you directly

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related to you over here and when you when you,

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when you go and wander in that direction, they're gonna

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be like, hey, who's this guy? I heard about what

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he did? Maybe we should off the It's just it's

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just it's a really weird solution.

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Speaker 2: That takes us into Noah's ark too. You've got eight

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people committing in sound to create what up to twenty

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thousand ethnic groups and four thousand years, and people are

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okay with it, like okay, mom and sisters, yay, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's funny because it there's a really weird

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genealogical issue that I don't think it gets a lot

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of airtime. But I feel like most people who want

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the seminary know about it. So, like, there's this really

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interesting thing in the lineage that you get in Genesis four.

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In Genesis five, we've got these lineages from these individuals,

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and in part of the lineage it talks about like, hey,

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from this ancestor of Adam, we get the people who

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who make who does all this that they make? They

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might like harps buyers, metalworks, different things like that, And

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so they're like, hey, this is how this people group

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got here. But the interesting thing is, like this text

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is being written after the flood, right, So if this

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is being written after the flood, what that means is

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that those people groups don't exist. They're gone. They got

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wiped out in the flood. Right, So it can't be

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true that one of these children or great grandchildren of

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Adam and Eve became one of these people groups over

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here after the flood, because all of those people groups

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after the flood actually just came from Noah and Noah's family.

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They didn't come from any of Adam and Ned's descendants.

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Speaker 2: Because the Book of Genesis is not wacky enough, would

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you like to tell everyone what the Nephilim are? Because

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the Nephilim are awesome.

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Speaker 3: So not all Christians believe in Nephelim, and the reason

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is because it's so goofy that they don't want to

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associate in public with people who know that they believe

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in it. But it goes back pretty deep in ancient

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Near Eastern Lore and even in Mediterranean lor, this idea

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that there were these gods. Now in the ancient Eur

320
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Eastern literature, a lot of people believe these were the Onanaki.

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They're not. They're not the Aanaki. They're called the Apkalu.

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The Opclu come down, and they show up in the

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Book of Enoch as well, but not as Opkalu. But

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the Bible calls them sons of God, and in the

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ancient Ugarritic we have parallels to this. They're called the

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bene Elohim, and they were thought to be literal sons

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of God. They were seventy sons born between el and

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Atzerote we call her at Scheron nowadays, and they had

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they were in charge of all the nations. They got

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put in charge of each individual nation. But at one point,

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according to Genesis chapter six, these sons of God were like, hey,

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these women, we got some down there, which is a

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wild thing that if you're cause you're if you're an angel.

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In modern Christianity, you think of the angels as being

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non corporeal and then they have to like manifest into

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corporeal form. But in reality, like listen, if in fact

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the angels are up in the sky because that's where

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Heaven is, and they're looking down on Earth and they're

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lusting after the women, it would assume that they're in

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corporeal form up there too, because what is lust. Lust

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is a chemical reaction from within the body, right, So

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how are they lusting without a body? So they go

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down and they sleep with these women and they produce

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a race of giants. Poor women who had to give

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birth to these gigantic babies. I'm not sure how that

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worked out. And they were on the earth, and there's

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a huge like meta narrative in the Torah about like

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having to get rid of all these giants, even Ogg

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the last of the Refaem as he's called the Refem

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is another name for the giants, just like the on Achem.

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So we have this weird narrative where like God is

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like having to stamp out these giants and it's so weird,

353
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and like, then the question has to arise, like, well,

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if Ogg is the last of the refeem and God

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sent the flood to deal with the giants, well, how

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in the world did Ogg or any of the giants

357
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for that matter, survive the flood, because in Deuteronomy chapter

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two we find there are more giants. So, like, I

359
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don't know if you know about this solution, but according

360
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to the ancient rabbits, if you read the Tumid, what

361
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they say is that there's one animal that's the Rama,

362
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and there's one Og, and they survived the flood by

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clinging on to the outside of the boat. And that

364
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is how both the Rama and King Ogg were able

365
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to survive the flood, even though they believed that just

366
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like the people in the Arab tradition, they believe that

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the water was boiling. So not only was the water boiling,

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but also a god had to create a pocket of

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cool water around the arc so that the arc didn't overheat.

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And because there was a pocket of cool water there,

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that allowed both King Og and the Rama to survive the.

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Speaker 2: I guess that gets us around the did no one

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else in the Middle East own a boat problem with

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the Noah's ark story, because some people have mentioned that

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so incess to repopulate the earth, Jesus, we're still in

376
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the Book of Genesis. Speaking of Genesis, you talked about

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corporeal forms for the angels. I'm reminded in later Genesis

378
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Jacob wrestles with some say with God, some say with

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an angel. Right, that would be a physical form of

380
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the divine interacting with mortal humans. Right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And in the early days, for sure, this idea

382
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that a god was like a corporeal but was like

383
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more of a superhuman that was common. In fact, there's

384
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a really good book on this subject. I recommend it

385
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a lot. It is expensive, so I apologize ahead of

386
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time because it started out as I think a PhD

387
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dissertation and then it got turned into a book by

388
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Esther Memorius when it's called When God's Were Men, and

389
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it goes through the the engiineer Stern idea of like, hey, listen,

390
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in the old days, the gods were really man like.

391
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They had arms and legs and noses, and they could smell,

392
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and they could eat. And maybe a good follow up

393
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,480
on this you might want to check out is Francesca

394
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Stavrakapulu's book God and Anatomy. This idea that God had

395
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a body is so pervasive in the Bible and in

396
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the ancient eur East it's hard to get rid of it.

397
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It's not until we get like this later Greek philosophical

398
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,759
nonsense that we start to get this weird concept of like, no,

399
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,799
there's this God that's completely immaterial and transcends all reality.

400
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That's not part of the ancient Jewish mindset at all.

401
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Speaker 2: Isn't this a lot like you know, let's say the

402
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Greek gods, right, they had very human characteristics, whether it

403
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was Zeus, Apollo, Aphrodite, et cetera. They were jealous, they lusted.

404
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There was all this scheming and drama going on. I

405
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mean we see that in the Christian God, oh for sure.

406
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Speaker 3: Like if you look at the Christian God, he comes

407
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down and eats, so we find him in corporeal form

408
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:13,599
eating in Genesis eighteen when he visits Abraham, it's Yahweh

409
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and two angels that visit. And there's a really easy

410
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case to make for that. We find elsewhere, like in

411
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Exus twenty four there's seventy elders along with Moses, Aaron,

412
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Nadab and Abby, who they go up on a mountain

413
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and share a meal with Yahweh. He's got feet that

414
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you can visibly see. They see him. In Exus twenty four,

415
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Ezekiel sees it as well. And then also we find

416
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in Believe the Book of Job, which I think we'll

417
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get into at some point here today. It talks is

418
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either Job or one of the Psalms or Proverbs where

419
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it says God walks on the top of the firmament.

420
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There's this idea in the Hebrew Bible where God's thrown

421
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like Psalm one fifty says, it says his habitation is

422
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in the firmament, that is at the very top of

423
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the firmament, and he looks down from his heavenly throne.

424
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And then even says he walks on the firmament. So

425
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this idea that God, hey, God's up way up here,

426
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He's way above us, but like he still is, like

427
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he's got feet, arms, legs, and even the angels. We

428
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,119
learn in the Psalms that the manna that came from

429
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:26,279
heaven was the food of the angels. Like these these

430
00:24:26,319 --> 00:24:30,440
people up here in heaven, they eat, they drink, and

431
00:24:30,519 --> 00:24:33,319
this is common if you read the bail cycle that

432
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,039
comes from the Canaanite literature, and the Canaanites were the

433
00:24:36,079 --> 00:24:39,200
precursors to the Israelites. But if you read the Canaanet literature,

434
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,480
like they're up there drinking wine and getting tipsy and

435
00:24:42,519 --> 00:24:47,400
having eating buffets and so like this idea of a

436
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:52,359
non corporable, you know, pantheon of Gods is just complete

437
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:57,279
nonsense that came thousands, you know, fifteen hundred years later, which.

438
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Speaker 2: Takes us back to the shame of Adam. And even

439
00:25:00,039 --> 00:25:02,720
they're hiding from God in the garden of Eden. So

440
00:25:02,759 --> 00:25:06,119
now I'm picturing God. He's wandering through trees, you know.

441
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,279
Oh look, they're behind a shrub. God's like, hello, my children.

442
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,559
It's just a bizarre isn't it true? Not check me

443
00:25:13,599 --> 00:25:16,200
on this. The story in Exodus, I want to say,

444
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it's like one of the thirty something where God is

445
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going to appear to Moses, but he says, you can't

446
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see me in my full glory. Irt'le freaking I'll kill you.

447
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So when I walk past, you can see my ass.

448
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It's how I read the verse, and I'm sure I'm

449
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reading it wrong. Just to help me out with that.

450
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Speaker 3: I think it's usually just not translated. There's a passage

451
00:25:39,279 --> 00:25:41,240
in there where God says, I'm going to back that

452
00:25:41,319 --> 00:25:45,759
ass up, but they translate that out.

453
00:25:47,839 --> 00:25:50,400
Speaker 2: The verse says something like I will let you see

454
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,759
my backside, which I mean, I guess might mean his shoulders,

455
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the back of his hair or something. You can see

456
00:25:57,039 --> 00:25:59,480
you can glimpse just enough of me so you won't

457
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,960
be in physic danger. Would that be more accurate?

458
00:26:02,519 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 3: That is it? Yeah, we're so, that's the Exos thirty three.

459
00:26:06,079 --> 00:26:08,599
Exous thirty three. As you said, God is like, you

460
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,759
can't see my face and live, you can see my backside.

461
00:26:10,759 --> 00:26:14,079
But it's funny because they're in the same chapters. There's

462
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,519
this weird phrase where it talks about Moses, is that

463
00:26:17,599 --> 00:26:21,160
Moses uh spoke with yahweh face to face as a

464
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man speaks to his friend. And then in the same chapter,

465
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God's like, hey, you can't see my face and live, Like,

466
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:33,279
wait a minute now. To be sure. While this is

467
00:26:33,319 --> 00:26:36,599
a it in the most literal sense, it is a contradiction,

468
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,839
but it's also an idiomatic expression. When you talk to

469
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,519
somebody face to face, it doesn't always mean that you're

470
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,559
literally like physically face to face. It just means that

471
00:26:47,599 --> 00:26:51,079
you're having a you know, a one to one conversation,

472
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,359
but it is it's delightful the way that they've just

473
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:55,680
put it in the same chapter.

474
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 2: In our next segment, let's do a whole bunch prophecies

475
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,200
that failed. Oh, the apologists like to say that the

476
00:27:05,279 --> 00:27:09,319
Old Testament writers spake it and it came true. Not

477
00:27:09,519 --> 00:27:18,279
so much. We're going to find out more next. I'm

478
00:27:18,279 --> 00:27:22,960
speaking here with Justin Dez of Deconstruction Zone. Did you

479
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,039
bring some greatest hits or greatest shits from the Bible?

480
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,640
Some stuff that you get to talk about that I

481
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,160
don't know that entertains you or frustrates you any specifics.

482
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know what, there's a lot of stuff from

483
00:27:37,519 --> 00:27:39,759
the Bible that I don't think a lot of people

484
00:27:39,839 --> 00:27:42,400
know about, but is really interesting and I think it

485
00:27:42,519 --> 00:27:45,839
for me, it kind of helped me or moved me

486
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,480
along in my deconstruction. I think the first thing is

487
00:27:49,519 --> 00:27:52,799
probably like some of the textual criticism stuff. So there's

488
00:27:52,839 --> 00:27:56,039
this really interesting thing that happened where like we have

489
00:27:56,319 --> 00:27:58,480
a Bible, right Like I can hold up a Bible

490
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,039
and people are like, oh, yeah, it's a Bible, and

491
00:28:02,079 --> 00:28:05,319
it's just, you know, it's always been the same. Like

492
00:28:05,319 --> 00:28:07,240
I can open up a Hebrew Bible and it reads

493
00:28:07,279 --> 00:28:10,160
something and then it said the same thing two thousand

494
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,960
years ago. Turns out that's not the case. In fact,

495
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,480
anyone who's bothered to take the New Testament quotations and

496
00:28:17,519 --> 00:28:20,640
compare them with the Old Testament will find out the

497
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,680
Bible did, in fact change. And so like one of

498
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,400
one of my favorite goodies is the difference between the

499
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,200
Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek Old Testament. And most

500
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,680
people might know that typically, not always, but typically the

501
00:28:34,759 --> 00:28:38,039
New Testament quotes from the Greek septuagen There's only like

502
00:28:38,759 --> 00:28:40,880
two or three cases where it quotes from the Hebrew,

503
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,000
and we're going to touch on one of those. But

504
00:28:43,119 --> 00:28:46,680
there's this fun stuff that happens both in Isaiah and Hoseiah.

505
00:28:47,359 --> 00:28:51,720
So in the Book of Matthew, we find that chapter

506
00:28:51,759 --> 00:28:54,519
seven of Isaiah is quoted in chapter one of Matthew,

507
00:28:54,599 --> 00:28:57,960
verse twenty three talking about the virgin birth. And this

508
00:28:58,039 --> 00:29:01,640
is a really common thing. No one knows that the

509
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:06,240
original Hebrew doesn't say virgin. This is hamahara, which means

510
00:29:06,279 --> 00:29:09,559
a pregnant young woman. And then the Greek says parthenos,

511
00:29:09,599 --> 00:29:12,480
which at the time of Matthew it really did mean

512
00:29:12,839 --> 00:29:15,880
virgin at the time it was written in Isaiah though

513
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,640
it didn't. We've got lots of instances in this period

514
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,599
where it's used of people that are non virgins. Like

515
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:26,000
there's a woman who has a child with aries in

516
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,039
the Iliad, she's referred to as a Parthenosenis thirty four.

517
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,200
Dinah's referred to as a Parthenos after she's already been

518
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,839
assaulted by Schuchem. And there's lots of examples. So, but

519
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,440
the point is, you know, Matthew was relying on the

520
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,240
Greek sceptu agent. He couldn't read Hebrew most likely or

521
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,519
he didn't have access to the Hebrew, and he was like, oh,

522
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,720
this this is how we get this virgin birth nonsense. Now,

523
00:29:51,519 --> 00:29:53,680
if you're a Christian, you might say to yourself, Okay, well,

524
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,960
if this is the case, then that mean that must

525
00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,480
mean that the Greek sceptuagent is primary. Like if the

526
00:30:00,519 --> 00:30:03,880
Greek septuagent has a rendering that's different from the Hebrew Bible,

527
00:30:04,039 --> 00:30:07,279
we should take the Greek right, because our New Testament

528
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,079
treats the Greek as though that's the one that's the

529
00:30:10,119 --> 00:30:12,559
one you need to read right, because otherwise you couldn't

530
00:30:12,599 --> 00:30:15,720
get to Isaiah chapter seven, you'd never get it with Alma.

531
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:21,599
So nevertheless, this could be an acceptable proposition if you

532
00:30:21,759 --> 00:30:24,640
don't read the rest of the Greek septuagent, because when

533
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,319
you get to other vital prophecies that they really want

534
00:30:28,359 --> 00:30:30,839
to be true, they can't be true of the Greek subtuagen.

535
00:30:30,839 --> 00:30:33,480
And so, for example, in Isaiah nine to six, we

536
00:30:33,519 --> 00:30:37,480
get this passage about you know, a child has been

537
00:30:37,519 --> 00:30:41,200
born to us, a son given to us. You know,

538
00:30:41,359 --> 00:30:43,480
authority will be on his shoulders. He'll be a prince

539
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,279
of peace, YadA, YadA, YadA, everlasting father. And be like, ah,

540
00:30:47,359 --> 00:30:50,680
this must be a prophecy about Jesus. Now like almost

541
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,200
no biblical scholar believes it. They think that this is

542
00:30:53,519 --> 00:31:00,240
most likely an enthronement or a birth prophecy for Hezekiah.

543
00:31:00,319 --> 00:31:03,000
We can worry about that later, but the reality is

544
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,759
none that's relevant. If you think that the Greek septuagent

545
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,200
must take primary focus over the actual Hebrew, then this

546
00:31:10,279 --> 00:31:14,480
passage goes away. It's it's doesn't read remotely the same

547
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:19,559
in the Greek septuagen. You'll never make Isaiah nine six

548
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,240
be about Jesus. If you're reading it in the LEXX,

549
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,000
that's the shorthand for the septuagent. In fact, let me

550
00:31:27,279 --> 00:31:29,160
let me grab it for you real quick. I'm going

551
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,799
to show you or read for you. Isaiah ninety six.

552
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,119
This is in the translation from the Greek. It says,

553
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,079
because a child was born for us, a son also

554
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,720
given to us, whose sovereignty was upon his shoulder, and

555
00:31:43,759 --> 00:31:47,079
he is named messenger of great Council, for I will

556
00:31:47,079 --> 00:31:49,920
bring peace upon the rulers, and peace and health to him.

557
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,480
Wait what, that's way different, not even close to the same,

558
00:31:54,119 --> 00:31:56,759
And it's really funny, and people wonder, like, hey, how

559
00:31:56,799 --> 00:32:00,359
come Isaiah ninety six was never quoted in the New Testament.

560
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,200
Don't you think that be a slam dunk for the

561
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,279
New Testament authors. Well, it wasn't a slam dunk because

562
00:32:06,559 --> 00:32:09,359
they didn't read the Hebrew. They only read the Greek,

563
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:14,359
and the Greek didn't sound anything remotely like Jesus. And

564
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,480
then the other thing is if you throw out the

565
00:32:17,519 --> 00:32:21,559
Hebrew Bible, you also lose Hoseiah eleven to one, which

566
00:32:21,599 --> 00:32:24,519
Matthew quotes. This is one of the few times that

567
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,680
Matthew seems to be quoting or alluding to the Hebrew

568
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,759
text when they go in chapter two, it says they

569
00:32:30,759 --> 00:32:33,799
go into Egypt and then they wait there until the

570
00:32:33,799 --> 00:32:35,680
death of Aired in order to fulfill what was spoken

571
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,720
through the prophet out of Egypt, I I've brought my

572
00:32:39,759 --> 00:32:43,720
son out of Egypt. And if you go to Hosea

573
00:32:43,839 --> 00:32:46,160
eleven to one in the Greek. In fact, we'll pull

574
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,759
it up real quick. It's a really interesting passage because,

575
00:32:51,119 --> 00:32:54,200
like the meaning is pretty pretty obvious. Right, So is

576
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,960
that out of Egypt I've called my son. That's the

577
00:32:57,039 --> 00:33:00,279
Hebrew in the English, but if you read it in

578
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,519
the Greek, it actually says out of Egypt, I've called

579
00:33:03,559 --> 00:33:08,880
my children. Wait a minute, what And there's a couple

580
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:09,440
of variants.

581
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 2: So this is what a matter of New Testament authors saying,

582
00:33:13,279 --> 00:33:16,480
I need to make something come true to fit my narrative.

583
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,640
I mean, this is all probably speculation, but you know,

584
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,240
it's easy to fulfill prophecy if you've got a cheat

585
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:23,960
sheet in the back, and then you can alter it

586
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:24,920
at will, right.

587
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, So what we find in the in the New

588
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,000
Testament is they're kind of bouncing back and forth between

589
00:33:33,039 --> 00:33:35,759
the Hebrew Bible and the Greek septuagen at various times

590
00:33:36,039 --> 00:33:38,799
trying to figure out what can I use to make

591
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,599
Jesus the Messiah? How can I justify Jesus as the Messiah?

592
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,559
And when the Hebrew Bible fits their fancy, like Hoseah

593
00:33:45,559 --> 00:33:48,000
eleven one, they grab it, said, that's what I want.

594
00:33:48,359 --> 00:33:51,160
When the Greek subtuigent fits their fancy, they're like, that's

595
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,480
what I want. But the reality is like if you

596
00:33:53,559 --> 00:33:56,720
just think, like listen, if God gave you two different

597
00:33:56,759 --> 00:34:00,759
texts and they disagree with each other, and that means

598
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,039
He put you in a position as a Christian to

599
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,039
have to look at both texts and ask yourself which

600
00:34:08,079 --> 00:34:10,159
one of these is true? Why wouldn't He just give

601
00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:12,440
you one of them that was accurate? And this is

602
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,519
why textual criticism is so important, because once you see

603
00:34:15,559 --> 00:34:19,119
all the differences in the text, and you see how

604
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,800
the New Testament kind of exploited the differences to make

605
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,079
their case, well, then you're like, how do we know

606
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,159
what was really in the Hebrew Bible. There's so much

607
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,079
there that seemed to have changed that like, how could

608
00:34:33,119 --> 00:34:35,719
we possibly know what was original? Especially given the fact

609
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,239
that our oldest Hebrew manuscripts and the Dead Sea scrolls

610
00:34:39,559 --> 00:34:43,159
don't go anywhere near the time that the Torah was given.

611
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,800
Speaker 2: Okay, I was going to go back to the early

612
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:51,039
Old Testament, but you said, Matthew says, and I'm not

613
00:34:51,079 --> 00:34:53,800
trying to be pedantic, but Matthew being written in the

614
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:58,800
third person about Matthew. Matthew did not write Matthew, right.

615
00:35:00,199 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 3: That seems to be the case. The earliest manuscript is P. One,

616
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,719
he one of Matthew. We have the section where the

617
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:12,920
title Matthew would have been applied. We don't find it. Typically,

618
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,440
like in the Gospels, it'll say something like ew On Gellian,

619
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:24,320
you know, Kata Johannen or Katta Maton. We'll find that

620
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,719
in Greek, but we don't find it in P.

621
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:27,039
Speaker 2: One.

622
00:35:27,079 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 3: That's the earliest one we've got. And to think that

623
00:35:29,519 --> 00:35:32,199
Matthew wrote Matthew to me is kind of a huge leap,

624
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:37,280
because Matthew copies his own conversion story from Mark. So

625
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,760
in Mark we find the conversion story of the tax

626
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,599
collector Levi. That same story is ripped off in Matthew,

627
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:45,760
told from the third person, and then the name gets

628
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,199
changed from Levi to Matthew, which means either A he

629
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:53,280
had two names or B somebody got it wrong. Maybe

630
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,159
Mark got the wrong person and Matthew was correcting the record,

631
00:35:56,199 --> 00:35:59,360
and Matthew does do that. Matthew corrects Mark chapter two

632
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:03,559
when Mark said that Jesus said that Abiathar was the

633
00:36:03,599 --> 00:36:06,800
high priest when David ate the showbread out of for

634
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:11,000
Samuel twenty one to believe. So and that's wrong. So

635
00:36:11,039 --> 00:36:13,119
Matthew cuts it up. Matthew's like, nope, we're just going

636
00:36:13,159 --> 00:36:16,199
to remove Abiathar altogether, and we're going to fix it up.

637
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,599
And so it's weird to me that this guy named

638
00:36:19,639 --> 00:36:23,280
Matthew would copy his own conversion story from somebody else

639
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,679
and then tell it in the third person. It's just

640
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,119
such a weird juxtaposition. Even if he wanted to tell

641
00:36:30,119 --> 00:36:33,239
it in the third person, it seems like he would

642
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,639
have had some extra detail, he would have had some

643
00:36:37,159 --> 00:36:41,320
more flourishes maybe, but no, it's basically the same.

644
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,639
Speaker 2: Another example of the same problem being the claim by

645
00:36:44,679 --> 00:36:48,000
many apologists that Moses wrote the Pentateuch right the Torah,

646
00:36:48,079 --> 00:36:50,280
the help re Bible, the first five books of the

647
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,559
Old Testament. And I'm like, well, okay, first of all,

648
00:36:53,559 --> 00:36:56,920
there's the issue of the first verses happening at the

649
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,239
beginning of space time before there were any humans. And

650
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,400
then you've got the chronicling of Moses's own death and

651
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,519
the third person in Deuteronomy blah blah blah. So when

652
00:37:06,559 --> 00:37:10,360
apologist comes to you and they're like, Moses wrote the Pentateuch,

653
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:11,480
how would you respond?

654
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,679
Speaker 3: I would take them to the many instances of something

655
00:37:16,679 --> 00:37:20,480
in the text where Moses simply could not have written it. So,

656
00:37:20,639 --> 00:37:25,840
for example, in Genesis eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, all those

657
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:31,760
chapters we've got references to like people groups that didn't

658
00:37:32,079 --> 00:37:35,199
really exist. So in Genesis eleven, we've got reference to

659
00:37:35,199 --> 00:37:38,639
the Chaldeans, but they didn't exist. I mean, the people

660
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,079
group existed, but they weren't called Chaldeans. Then that didn't

661
00:37:42,079 --> 00:37:44,440
come until the period of the Greeks. This is this

662
00:37:44,519 --> 00:37:47,039
is not what they would have been called. So why

663
00:37:47,079 --> 00:37:50,000
in the world if Moses is writing Genesis eleven, why

664
00:37:50,039 --> 00:37:52,440
would he put the word for Caaldeans when there's not

665
00:37:52,519 --> 00:37:55,519
a word that was even used for another thousand years.

666
00:37:55,559 --> 00:37:59,079
That would be preposterous. And then another thing, roughly the

667
00:37:59,079 --> 00:38:02,719
same chapter Chances fourteen, we learned about this battle or

668
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:09,599
these multiple battles between Abraham and some of these we'll

669
00:38:09,639 --> 00:38:12,960
call them marauders for lack of better words. But he

670
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,800
says he chases them as far as the land of Dan. Well,

671
00:38:17,159 --> 00:38:20,559
that's the northern tip, and that's the right Dan. If

672
00:38:20,559 --> 00:38:22,599
anyone knows their Bible really well, they know that there

673
00:38:22,639 --> 00:38:25,199
was actually two Dans. There's one down by the land

674
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:29,280
of Philistine Felictia, and then they failed to take hold

675
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,320
of the land, so they moved up to the northern tip.

676
00:38:32,159 --> 00:38:35,000
But here's the thing. The tribe of Dan didn't exist

677
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:39,039
when Abraham was around. He could not have chased the

678
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,519
enemies as far as the land of Dan because the

679
00:38:42,559 --> 00:38:45,360
land of Dan didn't exist. And you might say, well, yeah,

680
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,239
but Moses was writing it, Well, it didn't exist when

681
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,119
Moses is around, right, Moses never entered the Promised Land.

682
00:38:51,159 --> 00:38:54,679
There was no settlement of the Promised Land in Moses's lifetime.

683
00:38:55,119 --> 00:38:57,360
It would have been preposterous for Moses to write as

684
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,280
far as the land of Dan. He would have no

685
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,960
idea where land of Dan is or whether whether or

686
00:39:03,079 --> 00:39:06,800
not it was even settled by the Danites. So we've

687
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,639
got lots of like, really weird anachronisms like that. And

688
00:39:09,679 --> 00:39:14,079
then there's even more so, like there's a passage where

689
00:39:15,159 --> 00:39:18,599
there it's just thirty six we get kings. Let me

690
00:39:18,679 --> 00:39:22,119
pull it up. These are the kings who reigned in

691
00:39:22,199 --> 00:39:27,039
the land of Edom before any king reigned over the Israelites. Oh. Interesting,

692
00:39:27,679 --> 00:39:31,440
So Moses is like, hey, prior to any king in Israel,

693
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,119
here were the kings of Edom. But he wouldn't have

694
00:39:34,199 --> 00:39:38,000
known that. He died way before Israel ever got a king.

695
00:39:38,199 --> 00:39:44,400
Moses theoretically died roughly in the fourteen hundreds, so you

696
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,840
know he was eighty when the excess happened. According to

697
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,360
the Bible, he died at one hundred and twenty and

698
00:39:49,519 --> 00:39:52,119
he was in the desert wandering for forty years, So

699
00:39:52,199 --> 00:39:55,880
he wandered for forty years, so he would know about

700
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,159
the Edomite kings most likely, but he wouldn't know about

701
00:39:58,199 --> 00:40:01,679
any Edomite kings after his death. There are about maybe

702
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:03,920
three to four hundred years between him and the first

703
00:40:04,039 --> 00:40:07,079
king of Israel, and he would have no idea that

704
00:40:07,119 --> 00:40:10,239
there was ever a king in Israel. He has not

705
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,360
been told that there will be a king in Israel,

706
00:40:13,639 --> 00:40:16,280
or when there was a king in Israel, or how

707
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:20,039
many Itamite kings will reign before there's a king in Israel.

708
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,400
This is all information that doesn't come until hundreds of

709
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,920
years later, which is why we see lots of references

710
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:31,039
in the Torah of saying when they were on the

711
00:40:31,079 --> 00:40:33,239
east side of the river. Wait, what do you mean

712
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,480
if you're riding from the western side of the river

713
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,639
about a time earlier when they were on the eastern

714
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,159
side of the river. That can't be Moses. Moses never

715
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,480
crossed over. So this was obviously written by somebody hundreds

716
00:40:46,519 --> 00:40:49,679
of years later that had already been living in the

717
00:40:50,199 --> 00:40:53,079
land of Israel and is writing about an earlier time

718
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:55,159
before they had crossed over.

719
00:40:56,519 --> 00:41:01,280
Speaker 2: If you'll forgive a deedtour taken by my primitive primate brain.

720
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,360
I found myself smirking when you were talking about Dan's

721
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,760
northern tip, and I just want to apologize to everyone

722
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,599
for being so base, just a very bad person. I

723
00:41:10,639 --> 00:41:13,639
have another prophecy question, but first I'm going to pinball

724
00:41:13,679 --> 00:41:18,039
it back to you. Any other favorites apologetics that you

725
00:41:18,199 --> 00:41:19,400
like to address in your work.

726
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,639
Speaker 3: Since we're still talking about historical I'm going to call

727
00:41:23,679 --> 00:41:27,760
them blunders. We've got a couple prophecies that simply don't

728
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,159
come true, and I'm going to go out on a

729
00:41:30,159 --> 00:41:33,039
limb say that they're never going to come true for

730
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:37,159
reasons that we'll address here. So, for example, we've got

731
00:41:37,159 --> 00:41:39,880
an interesting promise if you go to the book of Isaiah,

732
00:41:40,039 --> 00:41:44,800
both in chapter twenty nine and also in chapter thirteen.

733
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,320
But we're going to go to Isaiah twenty nine. Isaiah

734
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:51,719
twenty nine, we hear about this battle that comes against Jerusalem,

735
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,840
but Jerusalem doesn't get taken, right, So this obviously is

736
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,920
going to be the siege that was done by the Assyrians,

737
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:03,639
not the Babylonians. Blonians overtook Jerusalem, the Assyrians did not.

738
00:42:04,079 --> 00:42:07,599
The Assyrians only wiped out the ten northern tribes. Now,

739
00:42:07,639 --> 00:42:12,440
the interesting thing is if you go to the vision

740
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,760
that we find in chapter thirteen, what we find is

741
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,920
that the people who do get exiled, the people who

742
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:24,119
do get taken away, it says that they're going to

743
00:42:24,199 --> 00:42:26,840
be restored. And it talks about how this we got

744
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,800
this period of restoration right, says, shall not Lebanon in

745
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,079
a very little while become a fruit field that never happened,

746
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:36,880
and the fruit field be regarded as a forest. On

747
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,000
that day the death shall hear the words of a scroll,

748
00:42:40,199 --> 00:42:43,639
and a freed from the gloom of darkness, and the

749
00:42:43,679 --> 00:42:45,800
eyes of the blind shall see. The meek shall obtain

750
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,119
fresh joy in the Lord, and the neediest people shall

751
00:42:49,119 --> 00:42:51,519
exalt the Holy One of Israel. For the tyrant shall

752
00:42:51,599 --> 00:42:54,320
be no more, and a scoffer will cease to be,

753
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,360
and all those alert to evil shall be cut off.

754
00:42:57,519 --> 00:43:01,280
So this is really interesting. We've got this idea of like, hey,

755
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:05,119
now that God has like exiled some of the people,

756
00:43:05,119 --> 00:43:07,719
but not all the people, because Jerusalem and Judea survived,

757
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:10,599
God's gonna make it so that there's no more tyrants.

758
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,440
We're gonna have like this time of peace, there's gonna

759
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,320
be no scoffer, there'd be no more tyrants. But that's

760
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:21,280
just simply not true. Within uh, within his lifetime, we

761
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:25,920
already see the Babylonian army building up forces and getting

762
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,679
ready to go on a conquering spree, and then they

763
00:43:28,679 --> 00:43:32,079
eventually go on and conquer all of the Levant and

764
00:43:32,119 --> 00:43:35,599
then even Jerusalem. So this prophecy didn't come true. And

765
00:43:35,679 --> 00:43:39,639
if this is referring to the restoration and the in

766
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:45,599
gathering of the northern tribes, which it certainly seems to be. Well,

767
00:43:45,639 --> 00:43:47,880
then that never happened either, and I don't think it

768
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:49,960
will happen because a lot of the people that were

769
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:54,039
scattered never came back to the land. Their identity is

770
00:43:54,119 --> 00:43:55,920
kind of lost to history. That's why we talk about

771
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,280
the lost Ten Tribes. So all of the prophecies in

772
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,000
the early proper, it's like Hoseiah Amos and the early

773
00:44:02,039 --> 00:44:05,280
parts of Isaiah that talk about the restoration of the

774
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:09,559
ten northern tribes that God punished with the Assyrian captivity.

775
00:44:09,679 --> 00:44:14,000
They're not coming back. They don't. Their ancestry is lost

776
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,199
to history, right, So the fact that God's going to

777
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:21,920
gather them again is kind of preposterous, as is chapter thirteen.

778
00:44:22,119 --> 00:44:24,960
In chapter thirteen, we've got an out of place prophecy

779
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,519
that is much later than the earlier parts of Isaiah

780
00:44:28,519 --> 00:44:31,880
because it's talking about the Babylonian exile. I don't know

781
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,000
how it ended up in this part. It should be

782
00:44:34,039 --> 00:44:38,360
in Deutero Isaiah, but it talks about what God's going

783
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:42,159
to do to Babylon with the Israelites, which will never happen.

784
00:44:42,679 --> 00:44:45,719
The punishment comes in chapter fourteen, says but the Lord

785
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:49,360
will have compassion on Jacob and will again choose Israel

786
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,760
and settle them in their own land. And aliens will

787
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,440
join them and attach themselves to the House of Jacob,

788
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:57,960
and the nations will take them and bring them to

789
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,639
their place, and the House of Israel will possessed the

790
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,039
nations as male and female slaves in the Lord's land.

791
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,960
So what's happening here? Says that they're going to take

792
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,760
the captives who took them captive and make them captives.

793
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,280
Did that happen with the Babylonians? Did Israel ever take

794
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:18,360
the Babylonian's captive? No, they never did. Could they still

795
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:22,039
do it? No? The Babylonians don't exist. So this whole

796
00:45:22,039 --> 00:45:26,320
prophecy of God taking the Babylonian's captive for the Israelites

797
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:28,800
not only did it not come true, it will simply

798
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:30,320
never come true.

799
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:35,039
Speaker 2: I saw a great line by an apologetics website that said,

800
00:45:35,159 --> 00:45:39,239
prophecy is not prediction. They were trying to explain how

801
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,679
so many prophecies did not come true, and I still

802
00:45:42,679 --> 00:45:44,920
didn't understand what I was reading. But we were getting

803
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:49,079
into the prophecy of tire in Ezekiel. Right, Navikanezer's army

804
00:45:49,159 --> 00:45:51,599
is going to go in devastate the city. The entire

805
00:45:51,639 --> 00:45:54,039
place is going to be raised and burned down and looted,

806
00:45:54,079 --> 00:45:57,000
and then tire is not going to exist ever again.

807
00:45:57,039 --> 00:45:59,559
It's going to be a barren place, so barren that

808
00:45:59,599 --> 00:46:01,639
fish and are going to throw their nets out and

809
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,639
dry their nets on the rubble. And then, of course

810
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:09,000
in Zachariah is still talking about tire. What the hell justin.

811
00:46:09,639 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, not only that, So in Ezekiel twenty six we

812
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,880
get this prophecy against tire, and there's a couple of them,

813
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,519
but like, it didn't come true, right, there was a

814
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:21,480
besieging of tire, but it wasn't fully taken. It didn't

815
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:26,000
get fully taken until Alexander. But like in Ezekiel twenty nine,

816
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,360
we actually get an excuse from God, like we get

817
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:33,079
an admission from God that the whole tire prophecy failed.

818
00:46:33,599 --> 00:46:38,519
He says in verse seventeen, in the twentieth year, the

819
00:46:38,559 --> 00:46:40,480
first month, on the first day of the month, the

820
00:46:40,519 --> 00:46:43,079
word of Lord came to me. Mortal King Nebukanezzer of

821
00:46:43,079 --> 00:46:47,679
Babylon made his army labor hard against tyre. Every head

822
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,559
was made bald, and every shoulder was rubbed bare. Yet

823
00:46:50,599 --> 00:46:53,440
neither he nor his army he got anything from tire

824
00:46:53,679 --> 00:46:56,960
to pay for the labor that he had expended against it. Therefore,

825
00:46:57,039 --> 00:46:59,320
thus said the Lord God, I will give the land

826
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,760
of Egypt to King Nebukinezzer of Babyloni. He shall carry

827
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,440
off its wealth and just spoil it and plunder it.

828
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:08,320
So there's an admission. It's really funny in Ezekiel, like

829
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:12,719
Ezekiel's got to go do like propaganda work for like,

830
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,320
oh my gosh, the prophecy failed. So it's like, as

831
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:19,000
it turns out, God's got a new prophecy, right, But Ezekiel,

832
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,239
if you read the Book of Ezekiel like it really is,

833
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:27,360
it's a cope. Ezekiel really is coping with the reality

834
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,400
of his time period, and one of the biggest realities

835
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,400
that he was dealing with is that there were prophecies

836
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,639
not coming true, a bunch of them not coming true.

837
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,800
He's writing during the time of the Babylonians, which means

838
00:47:40,199 --> 00:47:43,960
all of the Assyrian prophecies were they've all failed already.

839
00:47:44,199 --> 00:47:47,480
So now we're getting our asses kicked by the Babylonians,

840
00:47:48,039 --> 00:47:50,760
and the Israelites are like, eh, fuck this, I don't

841
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:54,639
think this Yahweh stuff is really real, right, So he

842
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,400
says something that is super interesting and gets overlooked. Almost

843
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:02,360
everybody overlooks Ezekiel twelve, except for people that are in

844
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,480
the like full prederist camp. There's a note here in

845
00:48:06,599 --> 00:48:11,280
twelve that to me, I think, basically debunks the entire

846
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,360
Hebrew Bible. Says, the word of the Lord came to me, mortal.

847
00:48:14,519 --> 00:48:17,519
What is this proverb of yours about the land of

848
00:48:17,599 --> 00:48:20,880
Israel that says the days are prolonged and every vision

849
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:24,000
comes to nothing. Tell them, therefore, thus say it the

850
00:48:24,039 --> 00:48:26,360
Lord God. I will put an end to this proverb,

851
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:28,440
and they shall use it no more as a proverb

852
00:48:28,519 --> 00:48:31,480
in Israel. But say to them, the days are near

853
00:48:31,639 --> 00:48:35,320
and the fulfillment of every vision, For there shall no

854
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:38,960
longer be any false vision or flattering divination, which there

855
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,199
are false visions later in the Hebrew Bible. But the

856
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:45,119
Lord will speak a word that I shall speak, and

857
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:48,360
it will be fulfilled. No longer will it be delayed.

858
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:52,000
But in your days, o rebellious house, I will speak

859
00:48:52,039 --> 00:48:54,440
the word and fulfill it, says the Lord. The word

860
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:55,840
of the Lord came to me a second time, it

861
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:59,239
says Mortal, the House of Israel is saying that the

862
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:03,280
vision he hees is for many years ahead. He prophesied

863
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,519
for distant times. Therefore say to them, thus say it

864
00:49:06,559 --> 00:49:08,800
the Lord God. None of my words will be delayed

865
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:12,039
any longer. But the word that I speak will be fulfilled,

866
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,119
does the Lord God. So we've got this interesting prophecy

867
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:19,400
in Ezekiel twelve that would lead us to believe all

868
00:49:19,519 --> 00:49:21,880
the rest of that book, all the prophecies that came

869
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:25,360
after that, should have been fulfilled in his lifetime, and

870
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,079
they just simply weren't coming up.

871
00:49:28,119 --> 00:49:31,119
Speaker 2: I'm going to talk about the Dead Sea scrolls. These

872
00:49:31,159 --> 00:49:37,159
were supposedly proofs of the authenticity and holiness of scripture.

873
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,280
I don't know about that. Let's ask Justin d Z

874
00:49:41,639 --> 00:49:53,360
after this, continuing with part one of a two part

875
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,599
series on the Bible, Part two is going to release

876
00:49:56,599 --> 00:49:58,440
in just a few days, and then I will go

877
00:49:58,559 --> 00:50:01,280
back and put that link in the description box for

878
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:05,079
both shows in case you're catching this in archive. Justin

879
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:10,400
DZ of Deconstruction Zone he is a seminary graduate, he

880
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:14,280
has a master's in divinity, and he knows a lot

881
00:50:14,679 --> 00:50:18,840
about the Bible. I want to get into the Dead

882
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:22,199
Sea Scrolls in Justice. Second, I have to ask do

883
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:25,199
you have a favorite translation that you use for reference?

884
00:50:25,599 --> 00:50:28,239
You know, the apologist are always arguing. Put fifty in

885
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:30,559
a room and say, okay, do you use the KJV,

886
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,800
the NKJV, the New American, the Revised New American, the

887
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:38,559
you know, the NASB, the NIV, the Message Bible, the

888
00:50:38,679 --> 00:50:41,519
Living Bible. God. I mean, it's crazy. Do you have

889
00:50:41,559 --> 00:50:42,239
a favorite?

890
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:46,760
Speaker 3: Justin I do have a favorite. So my favorite Bible

891
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,960
is the New Oxford Annotated Study Bible. In fact, I've

892
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:51,920
got a copyright here.

893
00:50:53,519 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 2: Now I see two cats. Now, oh, I said both

894
00:50:56,039 --> 00:50:56,239
of them?

895
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 3: There, Yeah, both of them here. This is the fifth

896
00:51:01,519 --> 00:51:05,280
it's the NRSV edition, the new one. It's coming out

897
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:09,239
this spring, is going to be NRSV updated. And this

898
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:12,880
is a good scholarly Bible. And the reason why most

899
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:16,400
scholars prefer the NRSV. Almost all the new Bibles that

900
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,760
are study Bibles are in the NRSV Updated Edition, including

901
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:23,880
the Westminster Bible, and you know a bunch of other

902
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,000
Bibles that are kind of coming out in that vein

903
00:51:27,079 --> 00:51:31,400
of study Bible is because it was done by scholars

904
00:51:31,559 --> 00:51:35,320
to be a scholarly translation. Most translations are trying to

905
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:41,280
like be scholarly but also not deconvert people. Like they're

906
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:45,159
keenly aware that if they translate something in a particular way,

907
00:51:45,199 --> 00:51:48,679
it could cause people to no longer hold the same doctrine.

908
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,360
So they kind of toe the line with that, and

909
00:51:52,599 --> 00:51:55,039
you'll find that in the ESV. The SV does that.

910
00:51:55,639 --> 00:51:57,960
There's parts of the NIV where they purposely try to

911
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:01,119
be Christological where there's no need for for it. And

912
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,880
we have like these Messianic helpers in the Hebrew Bible

913
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:07,639
and these other translations where it'll say, like where it

914
00:52:07,639 --> 00:52:11,639
says like an anointed One, it'll say the Messiah in

915
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:15,239
capital letters, even though that's not in the text. So

916
00:52:15,559 --> 00:52:18,239
the NRSP doesn't do all that nonsense. It's like, listen,

917
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:22,280
here's the translation. You worry about what it means. Like,

918
00:52:22,559 --> 00:52:25,880
we're not doing theology for you. We're just translating the text.

919
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:29,920
Theology is your business. And so that's why the translation

920
00:52:30,079 --> 00:52:35,079
is so well used by scholars and academics, because they're

921
00:52:35,119 --> 00:52:39,039
not interested in reading a Bible that is telling them

922
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:42,280
what to think about the text. They're like, here's the text,

923
00:52:42,679 --> 00:52:45,760
here's what it says. You guys can do the theology

924
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:46,559
on your own time.

925
00:52:47,559 --> 00:52:51,159
Speaker 2: When you see pastors get together with their various translations

926
00:52:51,199 --> 00:52:54,480
and ask them to agree on the basics. Right, literal

927
00:52:54,519 --> 00:52:58,280
six day creation where Adam and Eve the literal parents?

928
00:52:58,599 --> 00:53:03,119
Was it an actual flow, global flood, regional floods? Was

929
00:53:03,159 --> 00:53:07,000
it a metaphor slavery and dentured servitude? The role of

930
00:53:07,039 --> 00:53:10,360
women speaking in tongues? How do you baptize? Is there

931
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:13,559
a literal hell or is it just a grave or separation?

932
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:17,400
The Book of Revelation? Right? The experts can't agree on

933
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:20,639
the basics, which I think is I find it a

934
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:24,039
useful way to help debunk the bunk. Do you go

935
00:53:24,159 --> 00:53:26,519
there at all? Justin Yeah?

936
00:53:26,559 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 3: I think that's important. So one thing you'll find in

937
00:53:29,639 --> 00:53:32,559
apologetics is there's a lot of people that they'll find

938
00:53:32,599 --> 00:53:37,039
like their favorite conservative scholar, and they'll be like, well,

939
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:39,880
this guy over here says right, and then they just

940
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,159
run away with that. Right. They think, if I find

941
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:44,920
one scholar that believes what I believe, I'm justified in

942
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:49,800
my belief. But in reality, like for every position that's

943
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:52,960
out there, I'm sure there's ten scholars that will vouch

944
00:53:53,039 --> 00:53:56,400
for that position. Now, that's why we look at what

945
00:53:56,559 --> 00:53:58,840
is like the scholarly consensus, Like, so we look at

946
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:01,519
an issue and we're like, okay, what are most scholars

947
00:54:01,519 --> 00:54:03,519
saying about this? Because what you don't want to do

948
00:54:03,639 --> 00:54:07,639
is base your beliefs on outliers, right, But that's really

949
00:54:07,679 --> 00:54:11,280
the goal of apologetics is to find an outlier that

950
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:14,559
tells the Christian like, hey, it's okay, you're justified in

951
00:54:14,639 --> 00:54:17,719
believing this because of this outlier over here. But if

952
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:21,440
you actually look at like the bulk of doctrine and

953
00:54:21,519 --> 00:54:24,880
the bulk of like the academic work that's done on

954
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:27,679
the Hebrew Bible, you'll find that typically they don't agree

955
00:54:27,679 --> 00:54:31,440
with the apologist's position hardly ever. But to be fair,

956
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:34,440
you know, the goal of the apologist is not to

957
00:54:36,079 --> 00:54:40,960
it's not to make this stuff necessarily like true. The

958
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:43,519
goal of the apologist is to say, well, it could

959
00:54:43,599 --> 00:54:44,840
be true because of this.

960
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:45,360
Speaker 2: Right.

961
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:47,840
Speaker 3: As soon as you give it like the air of possibility,

962
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:52,960
you've kind of done your job. You've soothed the person

963
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:56,519
who had doubts, like you've said, listen, no, no, no, no,

964
00:54:56,679 --> 00:54:58,800
we'll put this band aid down your doubts. It'll be okay,

965
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:00,760
and then hopefully it goes away.

966
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:05,639
Speaker 2: The word apologetics, of course, translating speaking in defense, which

967
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:07,960
brings us to the question of why God would need

968
00:55:08,079 --> 00:55:11,559
pithy humans who got everything else wrong to explain and

969
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:16,280
or defend him. Let's talk about this major, perhaps arguably

970
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:21,800
one of the biggest Biblical discoveries, mid twentieth century discovery

971
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:24,679
near the Dead Sea of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Hey,

972
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:29,679
wait a minute, this proves the Bible. Let's talk about that.

973
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:33,760
Speaker 3: Certainly not now, there are some people who've done a

974
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:38,679
good job of trying to integrate what we find in

975
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:41,079
the Dead Sea Scrolls with what we find in the

976
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:44,559
Christian tradition. Like we see lots of crossover between John

977
00:55:44,639 --> 00:55:49,280
the Baptist and these scenes. We see lots of we'll

978
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:53,760
call them parallels between the two Messiah theory and what

979
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,639
we find in the Dead Sea Scrolls. And we even

980
00:55:56,719 --> 00:56:01,440
find the interpretive method that we find in the New Testament,

981
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:04,519
where it basically says, but here's a prophecy from the

982
00:56:04,519 --> 00:56:07,800
Old Testament, and we're going to spiritualize it. Right, We're

983
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:11,519
going to give you an interpretation that's spiritualized, not literal.

984
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:13,519
We find that in the Dead Sea Scrolls as well.

985
00:56:13,519 --> 00:56:15,559
We've got like the pressure of Habit Kook and the

986
00:56:15,599 --> 00:56:19,679
pressure of Nahum, where it says like here's this passage,

987
00:56:20,079 --> 00:56:22,760
but here's what it really means. Right, So there's a

988
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:25,760
lot of crossover with Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls,

989
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:28,519
But what we also find is a lot of failed predictions.

990
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:32,639
Like at one point there were two leaders at least

991
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:35,840
within the community that believed that they were in the Messiah.

992
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:40,039
And it's also kind of silly because like the entire

993
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:43,880
the entire group wasn't like homogeneous. It seemed like there

994
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:48,320
was some infighting, right, So it's it's an interesting thing,

995
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:51,280
but it's also causing the question, like in the Dead

996
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:55,440
Sea Scrolls, like if they literally believed in the two

997
00:56:55,639 --> 00:56:58,639
Messiah theory, and James Tabor talks about this a bit,

998
00:56:59,119 --> 00:57:03,320
Doctor James Tabor, if they really bleed into two Messiah theory,

999
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:07,280
then that means the other Messiah would have been John

1000
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:10,800
the Baptist. But like according to the Bible, John the

1001
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:14,280
Baptist wasn't the Messiah. In fact, he explicitly denied being

1002
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:19,960
the Messiah. He even explicitly denied being Elijah. I'm Elijah

1003
00:57:19,679 --> 00:57:23,400
or the Messiah's a I'm you know, I'm the one

1004
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:27,280
in the wilderness, so like it's really interesting there. It

1005
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:30,719
feels like there's crossover with Christianity, but when you actually

1006
00:57:30,719 --> 00:57:34,719
read the New Testament, it weeds out some of those options.

1007
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:38,480
That being said, the other problem we have with the

1008
00:57:38,519 --> 00:57:45,280
Dead Sea scrolls is like it doesn't really it doesn't

1009
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:50,519
really know what to do with the Greek. So we

1010
00:57:50,599 --> 00:57:54,000
talked previously about the textual criticism standpoint of like the

1011
00:57:54,039 --> 00:57:56,199
Greek and the Hebrew not always agreeing with each other.

1012
00:57:56,239 --> 00:57:58,119
But we find the same thing in the Dead Sea scrolls.

1013
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:02,400
About sixty to sixty five percent of our Dead Sea

1014
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:07,039
scrolls match what's in our Massoretic text, meaning it's somewhat comparable.

1015
00:58:07,679 --> 00:58:12,880
About six percent match the Greek, which is interesting. So

1016
00:58:13,039 --> 00:58:15,719
like if you if you're looking at the whole of

1017
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:19,119
the documents from the Dead Sea, we've got a bunch

1018
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:21,920
about five to six percent that match what we find

1019
00:58:22,119 --> 00:58:24,639
in the Greek manuscripts, and then we've got a whole

1020
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:27,320
host of other manuscripts that don't really match. They don't

1021
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:29,400
line up with the Greek scept two agent, they don't

1022
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:32,199
really line up with the Massoretic text, and you're just like,

1023
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,599
we don't know what family of texts they even belong to.

1024
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:38,559
And then we find huge issues like if you compare

1025
00:58:38,639 --> 00:58:43,039
Jeremiah in the in the Greek to Jeremiah in the Hebrew,

1026
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:47,119
there's all kinds of problems, like the entire chapters are mithing.

1027
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:50,480
Sometimes they're moved around into different locations. In fact, I

1028
00:58:50,559 --> 00:58:53,760
recently did a deep dive on this with doctor Kip Davis.

1029
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:59,400
That was his area of expertise for his PhD. So, like,

1030
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:02,039
we just find so many problems when you introduce the

1031
00:59:02,079 --> 00:59:05,199
Dead Sea scrolls, all it really tells you is that

1032
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:08,960
a lot of these texts still were not stable. They

1033
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:12,320
were still changing even in the time period of the

1034
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:12,960
Dead Sea.

1035
00:59:13,519 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 2: Once again, I put the cart before the horse. We

1036
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:18,719
have to I'd like to explain what they are. So

1037
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:23,039
are these treated as kind of an uncanonized scripture, are

1038
00:59:23,079 --> 00:59:27,000
they corroborating documents? Are they something else? What are they?

1039
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:31,119
Speaker 3: It's actually a really cool mixture of all of the above.

1040
00:59:31,559 --> 00:59:36,199
So we've got some documents that were being copied and

1041
00:59:36,599 --> 00:59:42,360
edited we'll say two to three hundred years prior to Jesus,

1042
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:47,280
and this copyist's work was being done at different locations

1043
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:49,400
by different people. In fact, there are a lot of

1044
00:59:49,639 --> 00:59:52,639
people who do textual criticism, but just on the Dead

1045
00:59:52,679 --> 00:59:57,079
Sea Scrolls, and they believe that they've identified particular scribes

1046
00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:00,440
based on their handwriting and based on the language they use.

1047
01:00:00,519 --> 01:00:02,880
They can say, oh, this document was done by you

1048
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:07,440
know scribe one point b. You know. The other thing

1049
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:11,480
is that we find it spans a good range of

1050
01:00:11,519 --> 01:00:14,400
time though. We've got you know, two to two and

1051
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:16,920
a half, maybe even three centuries worth of texts, which

1052
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:20,400
means some of the latest texts that are in the

1053
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:24,000
Dead Sea Scrolls actually post state Jesus, because remember those

1054
01:00:24,159 --> 01:00:28,800
scrolls weren't stashed until probably the time of Hadrian, after

1055
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:31,840
the Second Revolt or the second major revolts. So we've

1056
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:35,199
got the Barkochlo revolt in the early second century that

1057
01:00:35,559 --> 01:00:39,280
came to a culmination about one thirty six, and they

1058
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:43,880
outlawed all Jewish Hebrew texts. If you were found with them,

1059
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:47,280
you're in a huge heap of trouble. And so what

1060
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:50,079
we found, and this is what scholars typically think, how

1061
01:00:50,119 --> 01:00:51,800
the Dead Sea scrolls, a lot of them got there

1062
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:56,000
was they in order to preserve their texts, they hid

1063
01:00:56,039 --> 01:01:00,480
these out in the caves during the diaspora. And so

1064
01:01:00,599 --> 01:01:04,280
what we have While they were all probably hidden out

1065
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:08,360
there roughly the same time period, what was hidden was

1066
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:11,599
a collection of texts that did span a good amount

1067
01:01:11,639 --> 01:01:15,440
of time. And not only that, they weren't just Biblical texts.

1068
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:19,920
We also got rules for the community. We've got psalms

1069
01:01:20,159 --> 01:01:23,679
that aren't from the Bible. We've got prophecies that don't

1070
01:01:23,719 --> 01:01:27,480
show up in the Bible. We've got apocalyptic messages that

1071
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:32,000
don't show up in the Bible, like the Apocalypse of Milkisa,

1072
01:01:32,039 --> 01:01:37,440
dec So it's kind of a cool collection of different manuscripts.

1073
01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:40,800
You can section them off and just read the biblical manuscripts,

1074
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:43,079
or you can section them off and just read kind

1075
01:01:43,079 --> 01:01:46,679
of their community manuscripts, because they had lots of rules

1076
01:01:46,719 --> 01:01:49,599
for how to behave in the community and what happens

1077
01:01:49,599 --> 01:01:50,519
when you break the rules.

1078
01:01:54,639 --> 01:01:57,719
Speaker 2: Later this week, Part two of this two part series

1079
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:01,719
with Justin de Z, will Conte and I'll see you then.

1080
01:02:02,079 --> 01:02:05,599
Speaker 1: Follow The Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a

1081
01:02:05,639 --> 01:02:09,280
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1082
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:12,960
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1083
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:16,679
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1084
01:02:16,679 --> 01:02:23,880
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