Speaker 1: The paranormal UFOs Monstairs Mysteries that you're listening to Talking
Speaker 1: Weird and now from a Kevin deep in the northwards
Speaker 1: your host, Doctor Dean Bertram.
Speaker 2: Greetings, or my fellow widows and weirded to welcome to
Speaker 2: Talking Weird on the Untold Radio Network. I'm your host,
Speaker 2: Dean Bertram, and as always, I'm delighted that you've decided
Speaker 2: to spend the next hour or so of your life
Speaker 2: with me. Whether it's watching the show live where it
Speaker 2: goes out on YouTube, an X and Facebook every Tuesday
Speaker 2: night at nine pm, or maybe you're watching it on
Speaker 2: one of those platforms where it's archived afterwards, or listening
Speaker 2: from the next day onwards when it drops on almost
Speaker 2: every podcast platform.
Speaker 3: On the planet. Thank you.
Speaker 2: I'm really happy to have you here. I hope you
Speaker 2: all had a great day. I hope in a way
Speaker 2: you had a better day than I did. I spent
Speaker 2: today having to go to the endontists and then it's
Speaker 2: what they called, and then the dentist. I had to
Speaker 2: have a root canal done to day, so it was
Speaker 2: two hours in one and two hours in another.
Speaker 3: An hour break in the middle where you're.
Speaker 2: Kind of apprehensive about the final stage. I've always been fascinated.
Speaker 2: This is just a quick weird aside with dentist work
Speaker 2: ever since I read the wonderful Harold blooms Omens of
Speaker 2: the Millennium back in the late nineties where he talked
Speaker 2: about having I think it was like a wisdom tooth
Speaker 2: removed or something. He had the nitrous oxide, and he
Speaker 2: had a religious experience, he saw angels when he was
Speaker 2: on the dentist's chair. I remember shortly there after myself
Speaker 2: having to get four impacted or four wisdom teeth removed
Speaker 2: in the chair. I didn't get put under. I was
Speaker 2: just in the chair, and I asked for, you know,
Speaker 2: the laughing gas, the nitrous oxide, and I think my
Speaker 2: dentist was very scroogey with the amount he gave me.
Speaker 2: I certainly had no incredible religious visions when I was
Speaker 2: on the happy gas, and I certainly afterwards never had
Speaker 2: any kind of valous type experience like Philip K. Dick
Speaker 2: had after he'd had a dental procedure, and the beginnings
Speaker 2: of some of his stranger paranormal experiences of the latter
Speaker 2: years of his life began when he was delivered. I
Speaker 2: believe painkillers from the local pharmacy, and he had one
Speaker 2: of his first real valous visions.
Speaker 3: Anyway, enough of that. I could talk.
Speaker 2: About valous visions and Harold Bloom's work for the rest
Speaker 2: of the night, but I'm more excited with what we're
Speaker 2: about to talk to or who were about to talk
Speaker 2: to for the rest of the night. Tonight's guest is
Speaker 2: a paranormal time travel writer, blogger, and UFO researcher from Cape,
Speaker 2: Girardo Masura, who has investigated the unusual since the late seventies.
Speaker 2: He has traveled to hundreds of places in the US
Speaker 2: with his family, documenting strange locations and lost law, building
Speaker 2: a paranormal location GPS research database with multiple thousands of locations,
Speaker 2: and has been a guest on dozens of paranormal, cryptied,
Speaker 2: and UFO related radio programs and podcasts. He's appeared on
Speaker 2: television discussing UFOs and has been interviewed for several documentaries,
Speaker 2: including the Cryptid feature Momo, The Missouri Monster, and the
Speaker 2: On the Trail of UFOs documentary series produced by Small
Speaker 2: Town Monsters, as well as The Creature from Big Muddy.
Speaker 2: I've seen all of these that are all great and
Speaker 2: most recently perhaps Grand Tawer. Last year's film was called
Speaker 2: Grand Tower, UFOs and Other High Strangeness, produced by Red
Speaker 2: Room Media, which tonight's guest is, I suppose the feature
Speaker 2: narrator as well as one of the writers of it
Speaker 2: a fantastic I watched it a couple of times in
Speaker 2: the lead up to this interview. I had already watched
Speaker 2: it when it came out, and I watched it twice
Speaker 2: again this last Week's great if you're into the type
Speaker 2: of things we're going to be talking about tonight. He
Speaker 2: has researched the UFO mystery for over forty years and
Speaker 2: frequently writes on issues related to reform of youuthology, which
Speaker 2: I think we'll also touch on a little tonight, and
Speaker 2: improving rational methodology. He's also a UFO collector and archivist.
Speaker 2: His writing and photography work can be found on all
Speaker 2: social media on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and on the Strange
Speaker 2: Travels blog and the occasional print medium. So I'm delighted
Speaker 2: to welcome to talking with somebody I've wanted to have
Speaker 2: on for a very long time.
Speaker 3: Michael Huntington, Hello, Reasings.
Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks, Hey, great to be here. Yeah, I've been
Speaker 4: been following you for quite a long time. We've intersected,
Speaker 4: I think in different places, you know, across some of
Speaker 4: the same subjects. But I think we've wrote really had
Speaker 4: a chance to chatter. I don't know each other too much.
Speaker 4: So thanks.
Speaker 5: This is great man, It's great to have you here.
Speaker 5: I love your I love your What's what's one of
Speaker 5: your I've often engaged on Facebook? It's UFO Culture Magazine.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's uh uh. That's a private group on on
Speaker 4: Facebook that has quite a few uh uh, notable researchers
Speaker 4: on there, a lot of center for UFO studies people
Speaker 4: and it's just sort of, uh, just the place for
Speaker 4: people to share some like images. Uh. There's a lot
Speaker 4: of pop culture type stuff in there. That's one of
Speaker 4: my focuses, especially on social media, because I think it's
Speaker 4: you know, it's undeniable that, at least for the UFO subject,
Speaker 4: that it's viewed entirely through cultural lenses. You know, you
Speaker 4: can't really escape that. And and if you're studying the subject,
Speaker 4: you have to study the history, you have to study
Speaker 4: the literature, you have to study all the cultural influences
Speaker 4: that are going on for the different ages and eras
Speaker 4: and movements. I have a big picture of view of ufology,
Speaker 4: you know, which is you know, the study of UFOs
Speaker 4: and the history and the literature and and all that.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of people that are focused on, you know,
Speaker 4: like the movement aspect, you know, the political disclosure aspect,
Speaker 4: you know, the different camps that are trying to push
Speaker 4: it politically or within the culture in order to change
Speaker 4: the paradigm or whatever. I'm a UFO researcher, so I
Speaker 4: do have opinions on things, but I also I look
Speaker 4: at a bigger picture. I look at all of these
Speaker 4: things going on. I'm removed a little bit from a
Speaker 4: lot of people within social media because you know, it
Speaker 4: tends to be newer, younger people that come in and
Speaker 4: you know, I'm like going on fifty years of researching
Speaker 4: this subject. So there's sort of a you know, learning
Speaker 4: curves and all that, and there's different camps and groups
Speaker 4: and everything. So you know, I navigate all these things
Speaker 4: while I share research with researchers, and I promote big
Speaker 4: picture uthology, and I promote projects and archiving and literature
Speaker 4: and all that, because I think ultimately, whatever your views
Speaker 4: are going to be on different cases or theories or
Speaker 4: personalities or what the big questions are. You should at
Speaker 4: least be informed, and you should read the literature and
Speaker 4: know the history and study it from a lot of
Speaker 4: different perspectives, not just from you know, certain believer views
Speaker 4: or even skeptic views. I do study the history and
Speaker 4: have study the cases, and I am skeptical in some instances.
Speaker 4: I think anybody who studied this long enough realizes that
Speaker 4: there have been hoaxes, that there have been con artists,
Speaker 4: that there have been cults and manipulative factors within a
Speaker 4: lot of these paranormal subjects that intersect. You know, there
Speaker 4: there have been cults, and there have been these things
Speaker 4: that have manipulated this subject and created these narratives, these
Speaker 4: competing narratives in these camps. That that is the history
Speaker 4: of the subject, you know, it's it's all of these
Speaker 4: cases and how all of this stuff interacts, and you know,
Speaker 4: the heroes and how they come and how they go,
Speaker 4: and how they rise and how they fall. I think
Speaker 4: all that's fascinating. And I think those of us that
Speaker 4: are focused on the historical aspect and the archiving and
Speaker 4: the promotion of you know, legitimacy for the what is
Speaker 4: a multidisciplinary subject I think deserving of even a degree.
Speaker 4: I think I think it's just as legitimate as a
Speaker 4: women's studies or African American studies. I think if something
Speaker 4: has been within American culture long enough and has you know,
Speaker 4: and arguably influenced the culture and the history and the politics.
Speaker 4: H and it has a literature, and it has movements
Speaker 4: and personalities, I think that's a subject that is worthy
Speaker 4: of study. And that's even aside from you know, the
Speaker 4: anomalies themselves, which are scientific mysteries. And there are questions
Speaker 4: there as to you know, I have a philosophy of
Speaker 4: science background. That's what I study when I was here
Speaker 4: at Southeast Missouri State and I focused on pseudoscience demarcation.
Speaker 4: That was sort of my physis. There so questions relative
Speaker 4: to you know, what is sufficient evidence? Uh, how do
Speaker 4: you change a paradigm? You know, how do you have
Speaker 4: these scientific revolutions? What is sufficient to change a paradigm?
Speaker 4: What does that mean? Who are you trying to influence?
Speaker 4: You know, are are paradigm shifted by yeah? Are you
Speaker 4: trying to influence the public? Is it a pr thing?
Speaker 4: Or are you trying to influence the consensus? Establishment? Because
Speaker 4: that's really you know, the walls that you need to
Speaker 4: knock down. So we get into these questions of you know,
Speaker 4: what's sufficient evidence and how far can you speculate as
Speaker 4: to what is a stew of varietal cases? You know,
Speaker 4: And I'm fascinated by all of it. I'm fascinated by
Speaker 4: all sorts of anomalies, UFOs, cryptids, go other paranormal things.
Speaker 4: And and I focus quite a bit in my research. Uh,
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, were you saying something or oh? Uh, I
Speaker 4: focus quite a bit on my research on uh, on mapping,
Speaker 4: you know, finding locations that uh, that have an anomalous
Speaker 4: aspect to them, you know, through culture of folkal or whatever,
Speaker 4: and you know, go beyond just probability, you know, to
Speaker 4: suggest something worthy of study, because ultimately, with all of
Speaker 4: these subjects, uh, you know, how do you study them?
Speaker 4: How do you you know? They They're so transient and UH.
Speaker 4: For me, I think ultimately we need to try to
Speaker 4: pinpoint some of these things down, localize them, and have sustained,
Speaker 4: you know, long term scientific studies. So I promote that too.
Speaker 4: I promote scientific youuthology as well as big picture you
Speaker 4: foology and reform to move away from you know, sort
Speaker 4: of the the corrupting elements that have always plagued the subject,
Speaker 4: you know, political influence by intelligence people and cult people
Speaker 4: and people that are kind of artists and people that
Speaker 4: want to exploit you know, that's that's something that we
Speaker 4: have to work through, and there's debates as to you know,
Speaker 4: who's out there and who's good for the subject and
Speaker 4: who's bad for the subject. And I'm in the mixt
Speaker 4: I pretty much have been doing this sort of thank
Speaker 4: you every day for you know, forty eight years, so
Speaker 4: it's a lifestyle thing, and I'm definitely devoted to the
Speaker 4: subject and all of these associative subjects, which is pretty
Speaker 4: much all part of the same big picture.
Speaker 2: I think, firstly, I'm horrified that we haven't tooked before
Speaker 2: this because you're so fascinating, and we've I think we've
Speaker 2: we've looked at some similar aspects of euthology, probably very independently,
Speaker 2: that not everybody is interested in. When I did my PhD,
Speaker 2: I did a chapter on the philosophy of science and
Speaker 2: it's and the way science intersex with euthology and how
Speaker 2: you can't understand the UFO phenomenon or the way the
Speaker 2: UFO phenomenon was understood in the twentieth century without understanding
Speaker 2: how science intersected with it.
Speaker 3: And I think I think there were there are keys within.
Speaker 2: The phenomenon, within people who've studied the phenomenon itself to
Speaker 2: perhaps helpers better understand science. And Charles Ford, of course,
Speaker 2: perhaps is arguably the granddaddy of all of this. If
Speaker 2: Ray Palmer is the man who invented flying sources or
Speaker 2: the father of flying sources.
Speaker 3: I was talking to gen Steinberg about that the other day.
Speaker 2: Arguably Charles Thought's the granddaddy of euthology, and he was
Speaker 2: super critical of science. In fact, you were mentioning structures
Speaker 2: of scientific revolutions before from the great Thomas Kuhn book.
Speaker 2: But Charles Thought was saying what Thomas Kuhn was using
Speaker 2: different language. Forty years before Thomas Kuhn introduced the idea
Speaker 2: of the paradigm shift. Thought was making it quite clear
Speaker 2: that you that science didn't operate the way that we're
Speaker 2: led to believe through a cultural mythology that science operates.
Speaker 2: In other words, you know, people standing on the shoulders
Speaker 2: of others and gradually getting closer to you know, some idea.
Speaker 2: Thought made it very clear that the scientific institutions have
Speaker 2: very strict boxes that you can't just inject new material into.
Speaker 2: And Thomas Kuhn said of the identical Thing forty years later,
Speaker 2: the paradigm is resistant to change. And when a paradigm collapses,
Speaker 2: it's only because it's been shattered so much. Anyway, I
Speaker 2: could go on ranting and ranting and anting about that stuff,
Speaker 2: but maybe maybe just because I'm this is the first
Speaker 2: time we've got to talk how how what was your first.
Speaker 3: What?
Speaker 2: What made you want to approach this this subject and
Speaker 2: spend the next forty years plus if you want at it,
Speaker 2: like to have that kind of passion?
Speaker 4: What? What?
Speaker 3: What? What led you here?
Speaker 4: Michael? Well, uh, I don't know if your audience is
Speaker 4: familiar with like the boy ufologists sort of thing that
Speaker 4: came out of the sixties. You know there was, uh,
Speaker 4: there was a cultural thing, uh that that happened where
Speaker 4: you have like sort of like adolescent nerds, you know,
Speaker 4: even before they were called nerds, and they were focused
Speaker 4: in on things like flying saucers. And you know, within
Speaker 4: that group you got all your you know, your your
Speaker 4: classic uh uh influencers, your writers and all the great
Speaker 4: and the magazines you know of the sixties and the seventies,
Speaker 4: and uh uh I was born in sixty nine, and
Speaker 4: my mother, uh was really into all of these these things.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 4: She was into all of the Eric von Donokin stuff.
Speaker 4: We got all of the the tabloids, like all of
Speaker 4: them every week growing up, and we got all the
Speaker 4: other magazine you got like all the UFO magazines and everything.
Speaker 4: So I grew up as an infant with this, with
Speaker 4: this stuff around. And then anybody that's familiar with the
Speaker 4: culture of the seventies, uh, yeah, you had the Travis
Speaker 4: Walton story. You know. I watched all these things unfold
Speaker 4: within these these tabloids and and on television you had,
Speaker 4: you know, the UFO incident. That was one that I
Speaker 4: watched on TV when I was a little kid. And
Speaker 4: and you had In Search of and Project UFO, and
Speaker 4: then Close Encounters hit the theaters, and all the magazines
Speaker 4: and everything within the culture was so sort of UFOs
Speaker 4: at least for me, and I really got into that,
Speaker 4: and I get into Star Wars and science fiction. That
Speaker 4: that's one thing that I tell people that are interested
Speaker 4: in in UFOs at least, that I hope that they're
Speaker 4: science fiction fans and if they really want to study
Speaker 4: the UFO subject, you also have to study the history
Speaker 4: of science fiction right along with it, all the way,
Speaker 4: you know, from H. G. Wells all the way up,
Speaker 4: because these are these are influencers within the culture that
Speaker 4: sort of mirror each other and they play off of
Speaker 4: each other, and there might be some answers there for
Speaker 4: people to consider, but either way, they need to to
Speaker 4: know what, you know, how people viewed what a flying
Speaker 4: saucer was. And it's different in different places at different times,
Speaker 4: and there's some cases that are good, in some cases
Speaker 4: that are bad, and some that are legitimate and some
Speaker 4: that are not. And you know that it changes over time.
Speaker 4: And I think, you know, an honest approach to all
Speaker 4: this stuff and really getting into the history of these
Speaker 4: cases and everything is is it. If you really want
Speaker 4: to study the subject, you have to know the subject.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of instant experts out there now, you know,
Speaker 4: because if they watched the documentary or two and then
Speaker 4: they get a podcast, you know, and then they're they
Speaker 4: have the right guest or two. But there's a fundamental
Speaker 4: absence of you know, if you're claiming expertise, you should
Speaker 4: at least have Yeah, I think some literary background, literary knowledge.
Speaker 4: I have a list on my on my group. Uh,
Speaker 4: you know, like I think like five hundred books all
Speaker 4: euthologists should read. Uh, you're not going to read that many,
Speaker 4: it's but you can read a few hundred, you know.
Speaker 4: I have a few hundred. And Uh I think that's
Speaker 4: you have to study, and you have to study the
Speaker 4: history and you have to know the cases. And that's
Speaker 4: how I got into the mapping stuff. Was uh, really
Speaker 4: it's a good way to know the cases. Uh, you know,
Speaker 4: down to a square foot if you can position where
Speaker 4: a UFO was and a witness, I think that's a
Speaker 4: pretty good demonstration that you've researched the case adequately enough,
Speaker 4: you know, if you're able to GPS it. But uh,
Speaker 4: going back to the to the close Encounters era, I
Speaker 4: really got into UFO's probably around seventy eight, when Travis
Speaker 4: Walton's book came out. I had pictures of Travis Walton
Speaker 4: on my wall when I was nine years old in
Speaker 4: eight and I started collecting UFO stuff and UFO books,
Speaker 4: and I had had a flying saucer encounter in nineteen
Speaker 4: seventy nine that sort of you know, pushed me over
Speaker 4: the edge there a little bit, and then I joined APRO.
Speaker 4: I was a member of the Aerial Phenomenal Research Organization.
Speaker 4: I was a kid, so I had to like, you know,
Speaker 4: write a letter saying, don't discriminate against me. I'm a
Speaker 4: legitimate researcher, you know. So they let me in, and
Speaker 4: I was a member at a couple of different times. Recently,
Speaker 4: my friend Dave Marler was able to find some of
Speaker 4: my APRO materials in the lost APRO files at the
Speaker 4: National UFO Historic Record Center. I had made a report
Speaker 4: from my sighting in nineteen seventy nine, and he has it.
Speaker 4: He has like a drawing that I made from when
Speaker 4: I was a kid back then. So and he's got
Speaker 4: my membership things from from back then as well. So
Speaker 4: when I say that I'm APRI old, I can pull
Speaker 4: out some bona fides to say that I've been around
Speaker 4: that long and corresponding with people. Back then. We wrote
Speaker 4: via mail, you know, and our internet was maybe the
Speaker 4: UFO Audio Visual Clearinghouse or one of the UFO news
Speaker 4: clipping services. I got all that stuff. Every month. I
Speaker 4: ordered different things, you know. I got UFO encyclopedias and
Speaker 4: as many UFO books as I could. Back when I
Speaker 4: was a kid, I sort of obsessive compulsive. I would
Speaker 4: take Ronald's these stories UFO Encyclopedia and recorded into a
Speaker 4: tape recorder wow, so that I can memorize it. And
Speaker 4: I was also obsessive compulsive about astronomy back then too.
Speaker 4: I would like copy like astronomy books and everything, like
Speaker 4: page by page. I don't know where that comes from.
Speaker 4: I'm sure some experiencers will say, you know, it's maybe
Speaker 4: it's a connection to my UFO experiences or whatever. But no,
Speaker 4: I went to college. I came down here to Cape Gerarda, Missouri,
Speaker 4: which is a has UFO history like you would not believe.
Speaker 4: It's where Project Identification doctor Harley Rutledge's first university scientific
Speaker 4: field study was conducted from. So I came down here.
Speaker 4: Cave Gerardos also has a UFOAT crash tail that predates
Speaker 4: Roswell from nineteen forty one. There's been several books. So
Speaker 4: I got that, you know that interesting lore. I got
Speaker 4: doctor Harley Routledge, you know, with his study down here
Speaker 4: at the UFO hotspot. I come from Saint Louis originally,
Speaker 4: which is you know where where a move on got
Speaker 4: it start, you know, out of the Saint Louis Flying
Speaker 4: Saucer Clubs. I remember back then, you know, when we
Speaker 4: had those, and I was a member of move On
Speaker 4: back in the eighties and the nineties as well, and
Speaker 4: years over the years, I moved away from them at
Speaker 4: times under you know, different administrations, as you could understand,
Speaker 4: as they moved more towards entertainment as opposed to science.
Speaker 4: You know, I still you know, I've tried to promote
Speaker 4: through YOUO reform a hashtag over the past ten years.
Speaker 4: You know, I've lobbied all the different groups I've been to,
Speaker 4: like SCU in Huntsville, and I've lobbied people there, and
Speaker 4: I've gone to a lot of different conferences as I
Speaker 4: travel around and document anomalous locations, and I encourage, you know,
Speaker 4: a move away from the celebrity culture and to move
Speaker 4: more towards grassroots science, a move away from you know,
Speaker 4: the intelligence influencing. I think I've said this before. I
Speaker 4: think when you have people like Louise Elisondo who has
Speaker 4: called for the death of euthology and to wait for
Speaker 4: the old euthologists to die, When you have somebody like
Speaker 4: that who is an icy guy saying that it just
Speaker 4: speaks volumes as to how clueless he is about the subject.
Speaker 3: Not agreement.
Speaker 2: We did a piece on the Untold Radio network. Another
Speaker 2: show Way used to do on this with Jason McLean.
Speaker 2: We used to do a show called Mysterious Library, and
Speaker 2: we did a piece just on that article, and everything
Speaker 2: that Alexondo was suggesting in that article was the things
Speaker 2: which had destroyed ufology originally, you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: the idea that we have to trust the scientific establishment,
Speaker 2: we have to just have intelligence people involved. I'm thinking,
Speaker 2: did we learn anything from the Condon like the content,
Speaker 2: like the whole the history of euthology has been plagued
Speaker 2: by the type of things Alexando was suggesting.
Speaker 3: Didn't we learn anything from the Benewitz are fair?
Speaker 2: Didn't we learn anything from all of these times where
Speaker 2: the institutions.
Speaker 3: Were controlling the narrative. I mean, it's the last thing
Speaker 3: we want.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And mostly a lot of these folks are just
Speaker 4: not euthologists. You know, I've met Louise Elexando in person,
Speaker 4: and you know, he was clueless about Hestalin when I
Speaker 4: talked to you, and I was like, you're you're promoting
Speaker 4: like Field and you don't know what I mean, how
Speaker 4: could you not know that? You know? Uh, you know
Speaker 4: this was back when I met him at SCU and
Speaker 4: he had they had just promoted uh, like the nineteen
Speaker 4: fifty two like that video of the Washington Nationals. He
Speaker 4: was promoting that in a in a speech as like
Speaker 4: legit footage. And it's like, no, man, you if you're
Speaker 4: going to be up there promoting the subject, I think
Speaker 4: you should. You should know the subject and care for
Speaker 4: the subject. And and I think a lot of those
Speaker 4: people are you know, they're within that niche you know,
Speaker 4: that mirage men how put off you know, sort of
Speaker 4: spook trough knish that's been around you know since SRI
Speaker 4: back in the seventies, right, And they're used to that.
Speaker 4: They're used to that, you know, that that pork so
Speaker 4: to speak, whether it's from Bigelow government also that you
Speaker 4: know whatever, and that's that's what they want. And and
Speaker 4: and I think they're sort of moving a lot of
Speaker 4: these A lot of these I see people also are
Speaker 4: connected to to like firms that deal with like security
Speaker 4: and drones. You know, So we're seeing a blurring of
Speaker 4: the drone issue, and we're seeing a blurring of the
Speaker 4: term UFO, you know, into UAP, which is a sort
Speaker 4: of amorphous thing that military can put whatever they want
Speaker 4: into it. And these people that are promoting a lot
Speaker 4: of this, they're they work for these firms, they work
Speaker 4: for these companies. It's sort of like a it's like
Speaker 4: a lobbying that it's kind of like off the books,
Speaker 4: you know, they're they're defense lobbying. But they don't have
Speaker 4: to be sunshine about it because I can just call
Speaker 4: themselves a science interest technology interest group, you know. Know.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 4: So it's there's a lot of stuff going on there,
Speaker 4: and ultimately there's a disconnect and ultimately I think there's
Speaker 4: a co opting and and and they're trying to change
Speaker 4: the nomenclature and they're trying to change what things mean,
Speaker 4: and they're blurring it with this drone stuff because there
Speaker 4: is a concern and these people are invested in that.
Speaker 4: And I think they definitely are promoting you know, a
Speaker 4: joint all domain command and control thing, uh for our skies.
Speaker 4: And and it's understandable because I mean, look at what's
Speaker 4: going on like Ukraine right now, right that sort of
Speaker 4: drone warfare is what's coming. And also what's coming is
Speaker 4: the skies are going to be filled with drones. They're
Speaker 4: going to be filled with delivery drones and robot drones,
Speaker 4: and that's what's coming. So they're going to have to
Speaker 4: partition the sky, and they're going to have to control it,
Speaker 4: and they're gonna have to lock it down. So I
Speaker 4: think that's what a lot of this ic machination stuff
Speaker 4: is is to get all the reports, you know, to
Speaker 4: turn everybody into little brother and siphon all these things
Speaker 4: to the government. Which the problem is, traditionally you cannot
Speaker 4: trust any of them absolutely because they don't tell the truth.
Speaker 4: They will tell you that they can, they lie by
Speaker 4: by a mission at least, right, they can never be
Speaker 4: totally transparent, which is why you know, I believe in UFOs.
Speaker 4: People see UFOs. There are things that are unidentified in
Speaker 4: the sky that people don't know what they are a
Speaker 4: lot of times we do know what they are, but
Speaker 4: UFOs are real what they are. In some instances they
Speaker 4: could be extreme alien or whatever. In some instances, you know,
Speaker 4: they're probably government stuff. But you know, we're talking like
Speaker 4: five percent of all cases, or a very small percentage,
Speaker 4: and then even within that five percent, half of those
Speaker 4: are just low information. Well really all of them are
Speaker 4: low information because if we had all the information, we
Speaker 4: would know what they were. You know, if we could
Speaker 4: identify a UFO, it's not a ufhone anymore. So there
Speaker 4: are extreme possibilities, the alien stuff, interdimensional, all that stuff
Speaker 4: is possible and exists and could exist. But you know,
Speaker 4: the military is interested in all that stuff. You know
Speaker 4: that that's flying in the skies that they want to identify,
Speaker 4: and there are mysteries there, and I think we have
Speaker 4: to look at everything case by case within the subject.
Speaker 4: And I don't think the military is going to give
Speaker 4: you the answers. I mean even their own efforts, you know,
Speaker 4: arrow UAPTF, all that stuff, AWSAPP. I mean we're just
Speaker 4: now getting like the big low papers and stuff coming out, right.
Speaker 4: I mean, they could have done that in twenty seventeen.
Speaker 4: I think it's manipulated. And then you're seeing these people
Speaker 4: making money and you're seeing them on TV, and you know,
Speaker 4: and and then they mix the patriotism stuff into it.
Speaker 4: You know, it's like, how could you be against the
Speaker 4: veteran You know, I've gone to conferences where I've been
Speaker 4: physically threatened by some of the guys and that's you know,
Speaker 4: the culture out there because he thought I said something
Speaker 4: on Facebook or x or something, and it's anybody knows me.
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm provocative, but I'm not going to insult you.
Speaker 4: You know, but you're you're seeing that, and you've seen that,
Speaker 4: and that's why, you know, people have distanced themselves along
Speaker 4: with a lot of those people just not knowing the subject.
Speaker 4: You know that recent all that, you know, the chandelier stuff,
Speaker 4: and you know the saucer and the field stuff. You know,
Speaker 4: real researchers recognize that stuff immediately. I know this because
Speaker 4: I was one of those guys that found the chandelier
Speaker 4: and I was one of those guys that found that circle.
Speaker 4: I was there, you know, and I'm a real researcher,
Speaker 4: and real researchers they went to details. You know, whenever
Speaker 4: I see a picture or a video online and if
Speaker 4: people are like, oh ufo Michigan, I'm like, that's a state,
Speaker 4: how does that help anything? And it's just you know,
Speaker 4: I need there's like twenty things that I need, you know,
Speaker 4: I need time, date, location, GPS, direction, elevation, I need
Speaker 4: the witness. I'm one of those people I don't believe
Speaker 4: in anomalous with anonymous witnesses, because how can you have
Speaker 4: providence of evidence. How can you have evidence providence without
Speaker 4: you know, if somebody's testimony is part of the evidence,
Speaker 4: then you need to be able to check the veracity,
Speaker 4: you know, make sure they're not like a professional con artist.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 4: There's sort of a move to have anonymous you know,
Speaker 4: just pictures where everything's just blurred out by the government
Speaker 4: and you don't know who said it, where or whatever.
Speaker 4: It's just you know, it's like Syria. It's like that's
Speaker 4: not evidence of anything. That's a manipulation, that's instilling fear.
Speaker 4: You know. I look at all the fear that the
Speaker 4: drone stuff was, you know, in New Jersey that they
Speaker 4: were doing. It all came from UFO people UAP advocates
Speaker 4: on like News Nation. And then the year before they
Speaker 4: did the same thing with those Chinese balloons, right, and
Speaker 4: then they mixed you know, oh UAP, it's also the
Speaker 4: same thing. It's like, no, there's a lot of junk
Speaker 4: in the sky. There's always been a lot of junk
Speaker 4: in the sky. There's always been balloons, there's always been drones,
Speaker 4: there's always been rockets, there's always been this, identify casions
Speaker 4: and all that. It's you know, people need to learn
Speaker 4: these things and realize, you know, when you turn on television,
Speaker 4: you're and it's media, you're you know, you're being manipulated largely.
Speaker 4: You have to really be careful. Uh yeah, I pull
Speaker 4: out the old X Files. I was an original X
Speaker 4: Files member, first season X Files member. I signed up
Speaker 4: for the X Files fan club by mail. Uh trust
Speaker 4: no one, you know, uh really trust no one. Judge
Speaker 4: things using critical thinking, uh, measured responses. Don't believe what
Speaker 4: you hear, you know, check what you hear, you know, uh,
Speaker 4: check the evidence and and don't draw conclusions. You know.
Speaker 4: You can have provisional things and you can be speculative.
Speaker 4: But I think we just there's so many people that
Speaker 4: are just on these narratives. You know, they just have
Speaker 4: these belief narratives, and you're seeing like everything sort of
Speaker 4: put together, and you're seeing like a deification of the phenomena,
Speaker 4: you know, as a singular sort of thing. It becomes anthropomorphized.
Speaker 4: And I think even Vallet has talked about you know
Speaker 4: that's problematic, you know, I mean it comes from Jacques
Speaker 4: Vallet and Kielle. You know, the idea that you know,
Speaker 4: there might be some sort of paranormal unity aspect to
Speaker 4: a lot of these things. But you know, I interact
Speaker 4: with a lot of people and it sort of gets culty,
Speaker 4: you know, and it's like, you know, the phenomena will
Speaker 4: only review what it allows, and it's like and then
Speaker 4: they mix their you know, their consciousness cultism into that,
Speaker 4: and it's it's worrisome, it's frightening. I've been around long
Speaker 4: enough to remember things like Heaven's Gate and and some
Speaker 4: of those people I've I've been around some cults. I've
Speaker 4: been around people with mental illness. If you're in this,
Speaker 4: in any of these paranormal subjects, let's cut to the chase.
Speaker 4: Let's cut to the reality. There are some people with
Speaker 4: mental issues, and a lot of times I think there's
Speaker 4: some bad reinforcement by some bad players, especially you know,
Speaker 4: when it gets into the exploitation aspect of it. So
Speaker 4: you know, we've said for years we have to police ourselves,
Speaker 4: and and we do that by pointing things out and
Speaker 4: asking questions and seeing if you know, that's the way
Speaker 4: to look. And and I played Devil's Advocate a lot,
Speaker 4: but I'm gonna keep doing what I do I'm you know,
Speaker 4: this is my lifestyle, this is my my subjects, and
Speaker 4: I I'm just going to keep doing it and try
Speaker 4: to influence people on and towards a positive thing.
Speaker 2: I quickly have to give a shout out to Horace Smith,
Speaker 2: who's professor emeritus of Astronomy in physics at Michigan State University.
Speaker 2: He asked the question before you actually you talked about
Speaker 2: Professor Rutledge's project identification study.
Speaker 3: Of Missouri UFOs.
Speaker 2: So it goes to show how switched on some of
Speaker 2: our audiences, particularly Horrace, that he was aware of that.
Speaker 3: I did have a question for you myself, Michael.
Speaker 2: I have several questions, but one of them is when
Speaker 2: we're talking about the keel and the Valet type interpretation
Speaker 2: of the UFO phenomenon being perhaps inadequately dealt with by
Speaker 2: taking an eth or an extraterrestrial hypothesis type approach to it,
Speaker 2: that it seems to be something perhaps beyond that tin
Speaker 2: can from space with little green men in it. I
Speaker 2: found it particularly interesting now I can tell by talking
Speaker 2: to you how much attention you pay.
Speaker 3: The media never really picked up on it, but it was.
Speaker 2: So interesting to me that so many people who were
Speaker 2: front and center in the disclosure effort or whatever we
Speaker 2: want to call it, from twenty seventeen onwards, both the
Speaker 2: journalists who were pushing it so people like Leslie Keen
Speaker 2: or Tucker Carlson as two very different examples, or the
Speaker 2: people who seemed to be embroiled in it, whether that
Speaker 2: be Grush or whether that be Tom DeLong or whether
Speaker 2: that be Halputov, that all of these people were beginning
Speaker 2: to suggest that this thing wasn't extraterrestrial, that there was
Speaker 2: another intelligence and it was something else, perhaps spiritual or
Speaker 2: perhaps into dimensional. But they were all pushing away from
Speaker 2: that etch interpretation, and the media never really caught up
Speaker 2: with that. But to me, it was fascinating that some
Speaker 2: of these key movers and shakers were saying, it's not
Speaker 2: et something else. What's your kind of takeaway on that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think within at least like UFO and paranormal culture,
Speaker 4: over the past like thirty years, there's been a move
Speaker 4: from the extraterrestrial hypothesis that there are space beings from
Speaker 4: other civilizations on other worlds that are traveling the distance
Speaker 4: to get here. However they're doing it, and the idea
Speaker 4: has been sort of morphed a lot of different ways
Speaker 4: over the decades into the notion that somehow they're already here,
Speaker 4: and they're either here somewhere in the earth hidden like
Speaker 4: you know, like in a civilization underground or in the water,
Speaker 4: you know, somewhere that we can't see. You know, they're
Speaker 4: a crypto civilization, you know, one that's like a lost
Speaker 4: Atlantis like Wakanda or some thing uh that was around
Speaker 4: uh for a long time. I mean it goes back
Speaker 4: to you know Shaver and uh pulp science fiction, you know,
Speaker 4: the the notion of underground even you know, ah g
Speaker 4: Wells Selenites, you know, inside of the Moon. You know,
Speaker 4: we can go back throughout science fiction and and see
Speaker 4: these ideas of you know, underground civilizations. Comic books and
Speaker 4: and films are filled with all this stuff. Uh. Jules Vernet,
Speaker 4: you know, is filled with all this stuff. But you know,
Speaker 4: as we as we move in you know, like into
Speaker 4: the Esoteric age and then you know, perhaps into the
Speaker 4: you know, the New Age, Hippi era, you know, where
Speaker 4: a lot of different, uh new ideas are being put forward,
Speaker 4: the idea of different realities and different dimensions like coinciding
Speaker 4: like together within space. Uh maybe occupying the same space. Uh,
Speaker 4: that's that became popular. I think a lot of it
Speaker 4: came out of like the ghost you know, uh spiritual
Speaker 4: uh ghost research. You know, the idea that there is
Speaker 4: that there is an invisible metaphysical realm, a realm of
Speaker 4: consciousness of beings, identity, souls, whatever, intelligences, and that was
Speaker 4: sort of you know, and it's very compatible with religion,
Speaker 4: you know, the idea of the soul and and afterlife
Speaker 4: and all that. But as you move into uh you know,
Speaker 4: the Kiel and Valet era, we have this this idea
Speaker 4: that perhaps everything's sort of connected to maybe a few
Speaker 4: intelligences that somehow can manipulate from this place that's here
Speaker 4: and manipulate late not just reality, but perception and human perception,
Speaker 4: and their interests are perhaps us. We don't know what
Speaker 4: their agendas are. Maybe they're tricksters, maybe they're angels, maybe
Speaker 4: they're demons, maybe they're beings from the future. We have
Speaker 4: all these different speculative ideas that can coincide and coalesce
Speaker 4: with religious views and also cult narratives and conspiracy narratives,
Speaker 4: especially within the UFO world. So yeah, there is a
Speaker 4: disclosure of disclosure is narrative that that has that that
Speaker 4: has has sprung out of the Bigelow crowd, the help
Speaker 4: put Off crowd. I think Big Low cannot be denied
Speaker 4: as being an influence, his mixture of the spiritual and
Speaker 4: the UFO stuff. He was paying the bills for a
Speaker 4: lot of these people that are you know that around.
Speaker 4: You know that whole new Thinking Allowed crowd. You know
Speaker 4: a lot of those people were recipients of you know,
Speaker 4: Biglow's funding. And we're part of a lot of these
Speaker 4: different projects. So there is like a narrative viewpoint within uh,
Speaker 4: within this culture around like put Off and and a
Speaker 4: lot of these guys Valet and Sri I and uh
Speaker 4: you know these remote viewers that they go to like
Speaker 4: Monroe and Esslin and and uh these are these are communities.
Speaker 4: There's these are camps one of many that interact with
Speaker 4: each other and influence each other. And that's sort of
Speaker 4: that's what's behind a.
Speaker 6: Lot of the uh, the U A P. Politics is
Speaker 6: also this this view uh you know, these these viewpoints,
Speaker 6: these belief systems that uh uh you know, I I
Speaker 6: promote depolitization, deep politicization of euthology. In fact, I you know,
Speaker 6: I say the deep politicized uthology.
Speaker 4: I think I'm gonna have some T shirts made, uh,
Speaker 4: because when you when you bring it into it, ultimately
Speaker 4: it's it's uh if you bring it into government. For one,
Speaker 4: they're not authorities, you can't trust them or whatever. And
Speaker 4: it the purpose is always going to be spending. It's
Speaker 4: always going to be you know, who can make the
Speaker 4: money off of this. And there's tens of millions of
Speaker 4: dollars being spent on this subject, and it's going to
Speaker 4: these you know, these these firms and these these people,
Speaker 4: and uh, I think it's really not been discovered uh
Speaker 4: yet that there are uh like ritual belief systems connected
Speaker 4: to what they do, and there might be issues if
Speaker 4: you know, our tax dollars are going towards you know,
Speaker 4: like C five H is that scientific? Is that a
Speaker 4: religious ritual? Are we promoting like a proto religion? Even
Speaker 4: Vallet has worried about this. I think he's mentioned this
Speaker 4: that you know, you have to worry about it becoming
Speaker 4: a proto religion. And it's frightening, especially as somebody who
Speaker 4: has studied like history, you know, go back to Nazi
Speaker 4: Germany and look at some of the some of the
Speaker 4: influences there that were sort of twisted by by some
Speaker 4: of those influencers. I think it's telling when people like
Speaker 4: Alex Jones or even just today is said that lou
Speaker 4: Elizondo's like, you know, not legit, like he's like Q level.
Speaker 4: It's like, you know, if you're getting called Q level
Speaker 4: by Alex Jones, then you know maybe it's it's something
Speaker 4: that needs to be looked at.
Speaker 2: And how when you approach, for example, your most recent documentary,
Speaker 2: which again I watched and I really enjoyed, as you
Speaker 2: would tell me before, though it's directed by somebody else,
Speaker 2: but you co wrote at Grand Tower, UFOs and other
Speaker 2: high strangeness. When you're looking at that on the ground,
Speaker 2: it seems to that film in many ways seems to
Speaker 2: validate a lot of what people like Keel and Valet
Speaker 2: and Patrick Harper and others are saying about so much
Speaker 2: of this phenomenon somehow being interconnected, and especially Keel, his
Speaker 2: idea was there was one phenomena or one phenomenon, and
Speaker 2: there was all these different aspects which appeared as different phenomena,
Speaker 2: but he always wanted to get to the root. And
Speaker 2: when you watch that film, there seems to me at
Speaker 2: least when I'm watching it to be echoes of that
Speaker 2: Keeleian idea that all of these things might be stemming
Speaker 2: from this same source UFOs, bigfoot hauntings, whatever.
Speaker 4: Well it comes up because you know, I look for
Speaker 4: these hot spots, right, places that are like that have
Speaker 4: like a little bit of everything but maybe too much.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 4: It's got cryptids and haunted places and cursed places and
Speaker 4: where to lecture, magnetic anomalies and UFOs and other sort
Speaker 4: of just strange urban legends that make it interesting. It's
Speaker 4: at least interesting to me to document so that it
Speaker 4: doesn't get lost, so that you know, I go there
Speaker 4: to some of these places and photograph just so it
Speaker 4: doesn't get lost, because places get you know, destroyed, and
Speaker 4: especially rural places, which is a lot of places that
Speaker 4: I do. But yeah, there is the Kiel and Valet
Speaker 4: notion of you know, some sort of singular paranormal cause.
Speaker 4: But that can be biasing, especially if you think that
Speaker 4: that causes an intelligence, right, because if you consider it
Speaker 4: an intelligence, then you anthropomorphize it, and if it's got
Speaker 4: powers that you don't, then it's easy to deify it
Speaker 4: after that, you know, And that's when you sort of
Speaker 4: get you know, these problems here. I think you can
Speaker 4: look at places and you can see that statistically they
Speaker 4: are more anomalous than others, and we do need to
Speaker 4: try to figure out what's going on and not just
Speaker 4: speculate that it's an intelligence a singular intelligence cause, because
Speaker 4: I think that's a bias interpretation. That's you know, you
Speaker 4: need a lot of conditions to be verified before you
Speaker 4: get to that. But I think it can be demonstrated
Speaker 4: that there are places that maybe it's connected to the environment,
Speaker 4: and maybe it's connected to electromagnetic from the ground. Maybe
Speaker 4: there's some sort of geological aspect that maybe can induce
Speaker 4: hypnogogic hallucinations. It may happen over here and not happen
Speaker 4: over here. That's why I don't like these singular things.
Speaker 4: You know, you may and I think I can demonstrate
Speaker 4: this that there's a place in Florida where it has
Speaker 4: three spooklike lower tales around it, like in a pyramid.
Speaker 4: You know, if you study it, you can see that
Speaker 4: it's literally a phosphorus mind, right, So there's probably some
Speaker 4: sort of natural cause to this. That's why I think
Speaker 4: every case, every hundred house, every ghost, every bigfoot every UFO,
Speaker 4: every single one is its own mystery. They may not
Speaker 4: be connected to each other at all. You know, there
Speaker 4: may be as many answers to these as there are mysteries.
Speaker 4: I think it's demonstrable that we can know what a
Speaker 4: lot of them are. I think the fact that you
Speaker 4: can solve some shows that they cannot all be one thing.
Speaker 4: That's just logic, which means that you know, it's probably
Speaker 4: a variety of things. And the supposition that it's a
Speaker 4: singular intelligence thing hasn't necessarily been demonstrated unless you get
Speaker 4: into the high strangeness cases and you and you get
Speaker 4: into the narratives, you know, and that's a whole other thing.
Speaker 4: But I'm interested in locations to minimize, you know, the
Speaker 4: transient nature and try to localize phenomena for study. I
Speaker 4: do haunted stuff mostly because they're the least transient. You know,
Speaker 4: a haunted house stays there. Bigfoot is hard to catch.
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, you can go there a week
Speaker 4: after he's been there, and UFOs may come or go.
Speaker 4: Spook lise uh might be a little uh uh more
Speaker 4: of a common thing. But I think a lot of
Speaker 4: those are are optical illusions. I think grat certain gravity
Speaker 4: hills are optical illusions. Uh, you know, and it's not
Speaker 4: to be a buzzkill. You know. It's like each of
Speaker 4: these mysteries are great. Each of them have their own
Speaker 4: uh you know, probabilities and likelihoods and answers, and I
Speaker 4: like truth. I'm I'm fascinated with hoaxes. I'm fascinated with
Speaker 4: the bunk. I'm fascinated with the contact ees and the
Speaker 4: the con artists and all that. It's it's, you know,
Speaker 4: part of a big picture. But but just to say
Speaker 4: something quickly, Uh, there could be an invisible trickster from
Speaker 4: another dimension that manipulates human beings as well, that is
Speaker 4: interested in human sexuality or human spiritual or psychic development
Speaker 4: or whatever. Uh, you know, prove it right. That's it
Speaker 4: would come down to that. But fascinating either way. It's sure.
Speaker 2: As we had a question from squatch Mama, who asks
Speaker 2: mister Huntington, with thousands of locations in your paranormal GPS database,
Speaker 2: have you noticed any patents or connections between these hotspots?
Speaker 4: Well, uh, pretty much. It's kind of hard to say
Speaker 4: that because we have this idea of a hotspot, you know,
Speaker 4: I mean, you see, like these lists of like, oh,
Speaker 4: Montana is a hotspot. It's like, that's a state that's
Speaker 4: not a hotspot. Hotspot is you know, like a position,
Speaker 4: you know, like a park, a location, a town, you know,
Speaker 4: something like that. And people sort of get these ideas
Speaker 4: of you know, when you have like a sighting wave
Speaker 4: or a flap, you know, they think that, you know
Speaker 4: that it's insistent. Really, a hotspot is a place that
Speaker 4: has sustained and consistent claims of UFOs or if we
Speaker 4: want to you know, have this window view. I do.
Speaker 4: I map everything because I you know, I think it's
Speaker 4: interesting when a haunted house is built on top of
Speaker 4: a of like an Indian mound, I think that might
Speaker 4: be something. You know, I think if people are seeing
Speaker 4: spook lights at you know, a location where you know,
Speaker 4: a plane crashed, that's interesting. You know what causes that?
Speaker 4: You know, things like that. Those are the things I
Speaker 4: map and you can see a lot of those, those
Speaker 4: sort of off the beaten path of places on my Instagram.
Speaker 4: I got like a thousand pictures up there.
Speaker 2: Just quickly too, because it fascinated me. In the documentary Is,
Speaker 2: there was talk about the thirty seventh parallel running through
Speaker 2: for example, the grandew location of the locations. Can you
Speaker 2: can you talk a little bit about about that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, that that's an idea that's been put forward
Speaker 4: in some books and a few TV shows. It's basically
Speaker 4: an extension of an idea that's been around for decades,
Speaker 4: if not longer. You know, of lay lines, that they're
Speaker 4: the idea that there is some sort of you know,
Speaker 4: interlaced grid that crosses the United or the world and
Speaker 4: at different spots you can see you know, historic locations
Speaker 4: or or paranormal places or whatever. And the thirty seven
Speaker 4: of the parallel, which is you know, is a line
Speaker 4: that across the United States. You can look along there
Speaker 4: and you can see you know, some interesting locations, I
Speaker 4: haunted spots, UFO locations, cattle mutilations. I think Marley Woods
Speaker 4: is along there, you know where all the the the
Speaker 4: Grand Tower and the other seventy three wave stuff took place,
Speaker 4: but all along there. But I think that you can
Speaker 4: find patterns anywhere. Really, the patterns that I found is,
Speaker 4: you know, there has to be people around to witness it.
Speaker 4: So you know, if you lay over, you know, you
Speaker 4: can take a map and put these locations, it's going
Speaker 4: to correspond where people are at, because people have to
Speaker 4: be there to experience things and report them. As far
Speaker 4: as hotspots, small towns limestone, maybe in the ground, running
Speaker 4: water there there are certain attributes that are interesting springs.
Speaker 4: You know. They're at Marley Woods, Grand Towered, different place,
Speaker 4: Skinwalker Ranch. Uh. There's the idea that maybe this either
Speaker 4: creates a condition that allows you know, maybe a veil
Speaker 4: between realities to lessen, or maybe at these places there
Speaker 4: is some sort of portal or something and things can
Speaker 4: come through from other realities or whatever, or there's something
Speaker 4: environmental uh that is affecting how people perceive things, or
Speaker 4: in some of these small towns, just folklore, you know,
Speaker 4: urban legend that stems from you know, some Bologne. There's
Speaker 4: there's a lot of that. I've investigated quite a few
Speaker 4: UFO crashes around here. In the nineteen fifty that word
Speaker 4: sort of like a part of an organized thing by
Speaker 4: the jc's all the different groups were having contests to
Speaker 4: have these saucer crashes. You know. There's these cultural things
Speaker 4: in there that we have to be keyed in on,
Speaker 4: I think to understand some of these big pictures.
Speaker 2: We have a question from a good friend of the show,
Speaker 2: who's been a guest a number of times, and a
Speaker 2: very good friend of mine who also appears in my
Speaker 2: upcoming documentary The Man who Invented Flying Sources.
Speaker 3: It was my tour guide when I was in Maury Island.
Speaker 2: And that's the wonderful paranormal researcher, author and musician Bob Antone.
Speaker 2: And he asks Lena, nothing about this, but you very
Speaker 2: well made Michael. What do you know about the voyager
Speaker 2: transmission as of late? The humanoid face appearing to scientists?
Speaker 4: Well, I saw something about that on x Twitter. I
Speaker 4: sort of was engaged in other things, but you see
Speaker 4: a lot of things like that, you know, these these
Speaker 4: pseudo news things. You really have to track a lot
Speaker 4: of this stuff down. And I don't have too much
Speaker 4: other than I've heard it out there, but I don't
Speaker 4: hold I think if it something like that actually did happen,
Speaker 4: I think it would be bigger. I'm pretty pump plugged
Speaker 4: into the UFO, you know, live pulls, and none of
Speaker 4: the legitimate, even the UAP disclosure people aren't aren't looking
Speaker 4: at that as anything legitimate. It might be out of
Speaker 4: that that realm out there, the Internet that you know,
Speaker 4: just is doing the AI stuff and going crazy and
Speaker 4: you know, making feeder phones and just trying to get
Speaker 4: as many clicks and sell click it on the side.
Speaker 4: I don't know, whatever I have.
Speaker 2: I have one more question for you before we before
Speaker 2: we we wind out, and that's because I know so
Speaker 2: many people on the Untold Radio network are interested in Bigfoot.
Speaker 2: What's your take on those accounts where Bigfoot is seen
Speaker 2: in the vicinity of UFOs or in the same report
Speaker 2: as UFOs or well, what I mean, what have you
Speaker 2: learnt from your decades of study or what's the takeaway
Speaker 2: do you think there?
Speaker 4: Well, it's the same sort of thing. Uh, you know,
Speaker 4: it's it's an unusual, anomalous claim that sort of just
Speaker 4: takes hold of a small community for a while, right,
Speaker 4: And then uh, I've looked at like the Murphy's Burrow
Speaker 4: mud monster over here, which is uh right, it was
Speaker 4: seen you know, near near Grand Tower during all the
Speaker 4: UFO stuff that we talk about in the documentary. I
Speaker 4: don't know. I don't think every Bigfoot or every cryptid
Speaker 4: is equal. I think some cases are more interesting than others.
Speaker 4: I think Murphy's Burrow, the events in the seventies and
Speaker 4: the eighties were interesting. It's along Mississippi, Nit and Ohio riverways.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of intricate you know, irrigation stuff going on,
Speaker 4: so things can move around. You know, it's still pretty
Speaker 4: rural in a lot of these areas. It's interesting, don't
Speaker 4: I've met people that have seen Bigfoot, and you know,
Speaker 4: you can only take their claims just on their claims.
Speaker 4: But I think out of all of the anomalous subjects,
Speaker 4: I think there's probably more evidence for some sort of
Speaker 4: upright hominid in certain parts of North America, and there
Speaker 4: are for UFOs or ghosts or sea monsters. Because you
Speaker 4: have hair and tissue samples and dermal ridges and all
Speaker 4: these other sort of things that are that are scientific
Speaker 4: in nature. Ultimately, you're gonna need a body, right, or
Speaker 4: some sort of serious tissue or or something that goes
Speaker 4: beyond just you know, the photographic evidence or an extraordinary
Speaker 4: claim on a TV show. Science is going to need
Speaker 4: something that they're going to have to study. You know
Speaker 4: that they're gonna need to study. That's UFOs, goat ghosts.
Speaker 4: You know, I'm I think we need ghosts and bottles,
Speaker 4: you know, we need to get more ghostbustery.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 4: I think yeah, long term, turn the lights on, set
Speaker 4: up scientific equipment instead of you know, filming one night
Speaker 4: yourself in green so you can create content that you
Speaker 4: need to move away from that. If you're being legitimate,
Speaker 4: you know, lock a place down and put some cameras there.
Speaker 4: And if there's legitimate stuff going on. I've been to
Speaker 4: hundreds of places and I've experienced all sorts of things.
Speaker 4: I've seen UFOs, I've experienced goes, I've seen amazing stuff.
Speaker 4: The most common paranormal stuff, I think is like synchronicities
Speaker 4: and just you know, things that just you know, they
Speaker 4: all shrimp plate sort of thing from from Repoe man.
Speaker 4: You know, it's it's that's the most common thing. And
Speaker 4: that leads to questions of chaos theory, and you know,
Speaker 4: do we exist in a control system? Do we exist
Speaker 4: in the simulation? All that stuff that's the philosophical you know,
Speaker 4: stuff that I think people embrace too much as not speculative,
Speaker 4: you know, and you got to watch out for the
Speaker 4: belief stuff and anyway.
Speaker 2: No, I'll be honest, I myself, I'm a sucker for that.
Speaker 2: And I often want to if perhaps the meaning of
Speaker 2: all of these things, you know, whether it's UFOs or
Speaker 2: ghosts or Bigfoot or Blessed Virgin Mary signings or whatever.
Speaker 2: If it isn't somehow to inject some pattern into this
Speaker 2: perhaps simulation that we're living in, or even this is
Speaker 2: this normal reality, there isn't some deeper significance of the
Speaker 2: purpose of these things, that perhaps the purpose isn't their existence,
Speaker 2: that perhaps the purpose is to show us that reality
Speaker 2: isn't exactly what we think reality is. But again that
Speaker 2: drifts into the philosophical and we can all have a
Speaker 2: bed each way when it comes to this, and it's
Speaker 2: I was only talking to Rick Hilberg the other day
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 3: Who who is.
Speaker 2: A frequent I know, a frequent contributor to your to
Speaker 2: your private UFO UFO What is it UFO.
Speaker 4: Magazine, UFO culture magazine. It's it's it's not like a magazine.
Speaker 4: It's just more of an homage to you know, to
Speaker 4: the old days. I share, you know, stuff that I
Speaker 4: collected and other people share interesting stuff that that's that's
Speaker 4: cultural oriented more so than you know, news or disclosure bombardment.
Speaker 4: You know. Rick.
Speaker 2: Rick was just saying the other day they interview I
Speaker 2: did with him for the film. He was saying, that,
Speaker 2: you know, they all they thought back when they were
Speaker 2: the teen U followed just the nineteen sixties, that they
Speaker 2: get to the bottom of this, you know, they'd solved
Speaker 2: the you know. But he said, I don't think we're
Speaker 2: ever going to solve the problem. I've thought that for
Speaker 2: a long time myself. I don't think we're we're ever
Speaker 2: going to solve this. But but it was a great
Speaker 2: joy having you on the shows, so so wonderful. How
Speaker 2: how do people how do people get a hold of
Speaker 2: what you're up to feel free to point them at
Speaker 2: anything at allmost.
Speaker 4: Well, if if you want to check out Grand Tower,
Speaker 4: UFOs and other high strangeness, just go up to TV.
Speaker 4: It's free to watch. And uh that's a great thing.
Speaker 4: Uh No. I I am pretty active on Facebook and
Speaker 4: Instagram and X. I do a lot of sharing with researchers.
Speaker 4: I did a project last year with some folks at
Speaker 4: the Center for UFO Studies where I shared a song
Speaker 4: of the day and we built like, you know, a
Speaker 4: six volume sort of you know, proto bibliography of Flying
Speaker 4: Saucer and alien related music. And this year I'm doing
Speaker 4: an archiving project. I'm sharing stuff that I collect and
Speaker 4: I'm getting new stuff every day. So I got a
Speaker 4: certain budget to get certain things, and I'm trying to
Speaker 4: teach some of the new people out there that they
Speaker 4: don't need to, you know, go to a contact in
Speaker 4: the desert or follow you know who Tom DeLong likes.
Speaker 4: You know, just get some UFO materials, books, magazines, and research,
Speaker 4: you know, study UFOs. You don't need anybody's permission. You
Speaker 4: don't need the government's pmmiration, you don't need politicians permission,
Speaker 4: you don't even need other UFO people's permission. But it's
Speaker 4: out there. There's resources out there. You know, there's so
Speaker 4: much chat, there's hundreds of you know, you collect this stuff,
Speaker 4: you read this stuff. There's there's scholarship out there, there's
Speaker 4: literature out there, there's a history out there beyond just
Speaker 4: beliefs and our views and our opinions and our politics.
Speaker 3: I couldn't agree with you more.
Speaker 2: And I think one of the most important things you
Speaker 2: were talking about tonight is that there is this terrible
Speaker 2: ahistorical approach to uphology today that people think they can
Speaker 2: just read a twenty seventeen.
Speaker 3: New York Times, you know, front page.
Speaker 2: Article and they understand everything, or they can watch a
Speaker 2: congressional hearing, and they're up to date. But this is
Speaker 2: a very long, last, long, ongoing phenomenon, and you can
Speaker 2: argue it goes back even before nineteen forty seven. You
Speaker 2: like a very long time and to just jump into
Speaker 2: it and think, oh I know everything because I read
Speaker 2: you an article or two and watch the documentary or two,
Speaker 2: it's problematic. I absolutely loved speaking with you tonight.
Speaker 3: I can't thank you for coming on the show. So
Speaker 3: thank you so much, Michael.
Speaker 4: Thank you. And I'm just a talker. I will rattle on.
Speaker 4: You know, I got UFO brain for half a century,
Speaker 4: so I appreciate everybody bearing with me and helping me
Speaker 4: with my UFOOCD.
Speaker 2: Sometime soon and until I talk to you again, Michael,
Speaker 2: hopefully very soon, and until I talk to everybody else,
Speaker 2: which will be the same weird time, same weird channel
Speaker 2: next Tuesday night, nine pm Central on the Untold Radio Network.
Speaker 3: Please keep it weird.