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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Paranormal UK Radio Network and this

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is a special edition of the High Strangers Factor talking

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about the dietlov Pass incident.

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Speaker 2: Good evening, everybody.

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Speaker 3: My name is Kerry Greenaway and I'm joined in the

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studio this evening by a co host, my lovely Andy Mercer.

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Speaker 2: Good evening, Andy.

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Speaker 1: Hello there, how are you doing tonight?

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Speaker 3: I'm doing absolutely fine. Now we have a very very

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special treat in store for you guys tonight, because we

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have got a very special interview tonight on a subject

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that is really close to Andy's heart.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell me what the subject is tonight, Andy.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely can. It's an event that occurred in the Ural

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Mountains in nineteen fifty nine where a group of ski hikers,

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which will holiday make us a saintly, but there were

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students traveling up north into the Ural Mountains basically met

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a rather strange end. They were a very experience to

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what they were doing. They knew the terrain reasonably well,

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camped for the night, and unfortunately met their end, each

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one of them that particular night. So it's nineteen fifty

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nine in Russia. But it's actually fascinating me for years

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since I first heard about it. It's become known as

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the Deal of Pass incident, which is the name of

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the leader of the group, ego Ideplov. It was named

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after him. It's a particular small region the North Yuroal Mountains.

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It will pass between two high peaks, and tonight we

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have with us a chap named Keith Okloski who's written

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two books on the topic, and I found them absolutely

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fascinating and I've listened to Keith talk about the topic

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on a number of occasions and it really wanted us

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and talk to Keith myself about it. So he's our

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guest for tonight.

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Speaker 2: Isn't he Yes, he is. Good evening, Keith.

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Speaker 4: How are you fine? Thank you, carry, thank you, Thank

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you for inviting me on, and thank you for having

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me on. Andy.

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Speaker 1: It's excellent, I say, really wanted to talk to you,

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so it's good to hear.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's very very good to hear.

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Speaker 3: You know, you've been researching this situation, this incident for

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quite a long time, haven't you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I have for quite a few years now, and

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I was met a couple of trips to Russia to

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you know, investigate a source if you like, and meet

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people who were involved from that time with the incident,

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and I went up to the diatalogue past the year,

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the summer, not last summer, the summer before, just to

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see the place for myself, which was quite quite eye opening.

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Speaker 3: And you've come across some really interesting information regarding this particularly,

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isn't You've looked at it so many different angles. When

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I was looking at your work, You've covered so many

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different angles on this. You've literally left no stone unturned.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think one thing I try to avoid is

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to have my pet theory and then say you know

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anything else that contradicts my pet theory, to rubbish it,

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or say well it's got to be this and it

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can be anything else. Whenever I'm doing an interview, I

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often mention the story of somebody I met in Lithuania

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who is a survival expert. And as people who know

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this story, one of the first theories that comes up

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about it is that they were hit by an avalanche,

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a partial avalanche, and that that's what caused some of

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the injuries, and they moved away from the tent down

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to the tree line to get away in case there

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was a further avalanche or movement movement of a slab

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of slow. Now, this survival expert, we were doing a

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bit of filming over there on the atlog story and

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he was absolutely adamant that it was he said, not

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necessarily a slab of sorry, an avalanche, but it could

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have been the movement of a slab of snow, which

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can still cause quite a bit of damage. But no

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matter what you said to contradict that you know anything

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that contradicted it, you wouldn't listen to it. And I

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think if you're going to get to the bottom of

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what happened to these hikers, you've got to keep an

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open mind. Well know will come on to it, but

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you know, there's quite a few paranormal theories about this

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as well, and I do not discount any theory. My

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view is if you can come to me with evidence,

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which is why I have kept my website open to

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people to contact me. So tell me what you think

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and back it up with a bit of evidence, or

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show me how you think the sequence of events went.

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And I think that's the only way you're going to

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do it. You cannot say I've looked into this deeply.

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Therefore my answer is the right one, because to be honest,

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there isn't a At the moment, there isn't a right answer.

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Not only that it could be that everybody looks at

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one theory alone, and it could be for all we know,

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it could be a mixture of theories.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, I agree. I know obviously if you had to

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do this on many occasions before, but you wouldn't. I

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just give us a brief rundown of exactly what happened

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in terms of what we know about the lead up,

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if you like to whatever happened to them that night.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, as you were saying earlier on Andy, you know,

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there were ski It's called ski tourism. That was the

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official name of it in those days in the Soviet Union,

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and it was very popular with students because it gave

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it gave students a chance to get away and let

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their hair down. And it's not something saying that a

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bunch of students today would probably want to do, because

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it was a test of extreme physical fitness apart from

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anything else in temperatures that went down to minus forty.

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They're on the edge of Siberia there, so it's not

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the sort of thing you think, well, we'll just throw

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a couple of tents in the back of a car

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and we'll drive up into the mountains. They need a

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lot more planning than that, but anyway, there was ten

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students set out from Sverdlovsk which is now eu Katarinburg

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after the fall of the Soviet Union or the breakup

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of the Soviet Union, it was in nineteen fifty nine,

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they set out to go north into the northern Neural Mountains.

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Without going into over great detail, they changed trains that Serov,

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which is a town on the way up, and they

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got to the town of Ivdel, which is really the

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last piece of civilization before we then go into the

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ural mountains. And from there they went to a woodcutter settlement,

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which was basically the last time anybody else ever saw them.

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And then they carried on to an abandoned geologist settlement

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which was just basically a bunch of wood wooden huts,

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and one of the one of the group there, uri Udine,

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turned around to return because he was quite ill, and

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he the date then that he turned around to go

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back was the twenty eighth of January nineteen fifty nine.

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So everything up to that point where we know what

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happened to them, because we have an eyewitness from uri Udine.

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I know those diaries. I know there's photographs, but going

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a bit further down the road will go into you know,

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there's theories that they've been doctored, et cetera, et cetera.

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But your udon is there up to that last day

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when he turned around, so he can confirm that it was.

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Everything was what you would call in inverted commas normal.

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But he turned around and went back and that was

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the last he ever saw of them. I saw of

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them alive, I should say. They continued and on the

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they continued to the base of the mountain called Colla Seaacle,

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which in Soviet that that's actually a Manci that the

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local tribe in the area is the Manci, and it

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means don't go there, sorry, not don't go there, but

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it means dead mountain. Sorry. Their actual destination was another

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mountain called o'torten, which was don't go there in the

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local Manci language. But yeah. The funny thing about it, though,

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is that the the Soviets call them by their heights,

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so that dead mountain call that seacle. And I'm not

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even sure I'm pronouncing it right because I don't speak Mancy.

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It means dead mountain. What it means is it's not

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a sinister warning. What it means is nothing grows on

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there and it's no good for herding rain there because

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there's no food for them. Don't don't go there. At

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Mount or Torten is not another sinister warning. It's it's

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a difficult place to get to in winter. All the

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Manci names mean something in relation to giving you guidance

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to the members of the tribe about the various geographical locations.

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A lot of people read something into it, you know,

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it's like the Mountain of the Dead, which you know,

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where they've all died, et cetera, et cetera. But I

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can say that in Russia now on my last trip

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there many Russians who are in you know, well into

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the diatlog story. It's it's it's now being called the

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Mountain of the Nine apparently. Yeah, it's quite quite current

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usage in Russia now, you know, as an allusion to

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the dead the nine dead skiers. So anyway, so on

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the night of the first and the night of the

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first and second of February, they seemed to deviate from

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their route. They actually went up the mountain instead of

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more or less going around it, which when I was there,

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it seemed a far more logical route to follow it

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to just sticked to the tree line, because it's fairly

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flat and level. There's reindeer paths as passed that the

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man si use, and it tends to follow the river

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that's there the outer sphere, so if you stick to that,

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it's a pretty easy run. But what they were they

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were basically testing themselves, and it could be the Igor

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Diatlov wanted to add an extra layer of difficulty, if

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you like, to the whole thing by taking them up

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the mountain and camping out on the mountain side itself

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that night. Nobody knows for sure, but it seemed a

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bit of a peculiar deviation to make. But that's one

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explanation for it as to what they were doing up

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there when they could have taken a bit of an

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easier route down at the base of the mountain. Anyway,

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that's what they did. When they didn't return, they were

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due back. They were due to send a telegram back

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about the eleventh or twelfth village called vis High, which

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they passed through on the way up before they went

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to the woodcutters settlement. They were meant to get back

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to vis High and send a telegram around the twelfth

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of February. At this point, they'd already been dead for

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nearly two weeks, have been dead for twelve days, so

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there wasn't an immediate kind of where the hell are they.

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People weren't over worried just because they didn't hear, but

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as the days started to pass, people were starting to

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get worried that the families in particular, and I'll come

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on to that later on, because there's a theory as

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to why it was. Nothing was done very quickly, so

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eventually the parents were going to the university every day

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that the tourist club. They were getting quite agitated as

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to why nobody was doing anything. So eventually search parties

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did set out to go up and start looking for them,

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and they found the tent itself on the twenty sixth

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of February, so this is almost four weeks after they

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were dead. After they died, but no sign of the bodies,

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and the tent itself had collapsed and had been There

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was slash marks down one side of it where it

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looked as if they'd all slashed their way out of

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the tent. Some of the search party did make extra

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tears to get into the tent. But you see, at

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that point, nobody expected to find them dead. They thought

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that something had happened or had been some kind of

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emergency that they just left the ten. They expected them

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find them all further down in the forest alive. But

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the first bodies were found the next day. The first

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two bodies were found down by the tree line, by

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a cedar tree. They were almost naked, they'd had they

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just had their underwear on, and they'd also had burn

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marks to their bodies, their arms and their feet where

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they tried to start a fire. And the cold, the

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frostbite was so bad that they were actually putting their

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hands into the fire.

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Speaker 1: Hard to imagine, isn't it interesting to be that bad?

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Speaker 4: It's like I say, the temperature, the official temperature was

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minus twenty seven that night. But if you think there's

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a strong wind up there, which the ten days I

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was up there, that wind was there all the time.

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So that must take it down to about minus forty

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minus fifty. Sure, so you we've had we've had winter here.

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There was one morning a winter I think it was

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minus six, and it was absolutely I had all my

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clothes on. It was absolutely could you imagine what it

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must be like to have your bare hands and trying

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to stick them into a fire and your feet into

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the flames and feeling nothing because you know, but basically

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you're the frostbite was just attacking the whole body and

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killing them. It must have been absolutely horrendous. So anyway,

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they found the first two bodies, and then almost immediately

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they found a further three. Sorry, they found another two bodies,

239
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Igor d'atlov and one of the two girls in the group, Zena,

240
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on the actual mountain side. And on the fifth of March,

241
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which was basically almost two weeks later, they found a

242
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rust and Slobodin's body in between the body of Zena

243
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and Igor Diatlov, almost in the direct line. There was

244
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a couple of one hundred yards between each one of them,

245
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and it's all as if they were trying to make

246
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their way back to the tent. There's some distance away

247
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from where the first two bodies were found. The remaining

248
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four bodies weren't found for another two months. When the

249
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snow started to melt, they tried to build a shelter,

250
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and it was when those four bodies were found and

251
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they found horrendous injuries on them, basically described as car

252
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crash type injuries, especially to the other female in the

253
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group and one of the oldest male in the group,

254
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Semeon Zolatarev. His ribs were completely crushed, so were the

255
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Ludas the other female, she wasnd raped over a rock.

256
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But the thing is she hadn't actually fallen on the

257
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rock because there would have been deep snow, but there

258
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was deep snow covering them, which is why they didn't

259
00:15:57,799 --> 00:16:01,039
find the bodies for nearly two months. And there was

260
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:05,679
two other members of the group there. Basically they one

261
00:16:05,679 --> 00:16:08,279
of them had an injury behind his right ear, which

262
00:16:08,399 --> 00:16:13,159
again seems peculiar, but also various types of injuries, with

263
00:16:13,279 --> 00:16:17,200
the worst of them being to Zalataro and to Luda Dublinina,

264
00:16:17,519 --> 00:16:21,360
the the other female, wh her nose had almost been

265
00:16:21,399 --> 00:16:24,159
flattened into her face as well as if should be

266
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plunched by a heavyweight boxer. So they're very strange injuries.

267
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So I don't know how you want to proceed. Because

268
00:16:34,519 --> 00:16:39,039
that that finding of the bodies, which was over the

269
00:16:39,159 --> 00:16:43,320
third to the fifth of May. The cold case was

270
00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:47,200
closed down just a few weeks after that, so I

271
00:16:47,279 --> 00:16:48,799
don't know where you want to proceed.

272
00:16:49,679 --> 00:16:52,200
Speaker 1: Do you think it gives the impression that it was just, well,

273
00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:53,840
that's enough, we found them, now do you need to

274
00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,159
worry any further? It goes down that soon afterwards.

275
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Speaker 4: What happened was that the the autopsies were done on

276
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the first bodies, and these first bodies were basically deemed

277
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to have died of hypothermia. So you think, well, fair enough,

278
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,440
you couldn't you could answer necessarily straight away why they'd

279
00:17:18,519 --> 00:17:21,680
left the tent, But obviously something made them leave the tent.

280
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,720
They died of cold, because it was basically you're inside

281
00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,920
beery if you don't know, they didn't have enough clothing

282
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,279
on them. Some of them were in bare feet, so

283
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:33,920
it's like the tent was left in an emergency. Okay,

284
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,799
so you've got a big mystery there, But basically they've

285
00:17:36,839 --> 00:17:41,119
died of hypothermia. They weren't stabbed to death, nobody killed them. Well,

286
00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,839
one of them, of the two bodies found by the tree,

287
00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:49,400
did have signs of foam around his mouth. Grave foam

288
00:17:49,839 --> 00:17:53,200
as if something which apparently can be caused by somebody

289
00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,640
pressing on your chest, right, they'd be that again as

290
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,480
there's theories over that that some he had possibly been

291
00:18:01,519 --> 00:18:04,839
interrogating him over something and he was being held and

292
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,920
extreme pressure was put on his chest to bring which

293
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:13,039
would bring foam to your mouth. But it's but basically

294
00:18:13,319 --> 00:18:15,440
it was decided that they'd all died of the cold,

295
00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,119
whatever had happened. But then when you find the other

296
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,880
four bodies in the snow shelter, a completely different set

297
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,039
of circumstances. It's like you've got five who would have

298
00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,079
died what you would call a normal death from them.

299
00:18:30,519 --> 00:18:34,119
Then you've got these other four who are not all

300
00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,960
two of them with extremely serious injuries as if they'd

301
00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,799
been hit by a car, but no external marks on them.

302
00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,279
So the you know, you think, well, how the hell

303
00:18:45,039 --> 00:18:47,920
have half died that way and this other half have

304
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,200
died this way? It just doesn't make any sense. So

305
00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:58,960
and also what explains car crash type injuries smash ribs

306
00:19:00,799 --> 00:19:06,400
another injuries to the group. There was skull fractures and

307
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,400
this sort of thing. People have tried to explain it

308
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,480
by saying, well, there were where the snow sheltering was

309
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,240
a ravine. And when I say a ravine, it wasn't

310
00:19:15,279 --> 00:19:18,559
five hundred feet higher. I mean, I stood there and

311
00:19:18,599 --> 00:19:22,440
it's a fairly gentle slope and it would have been

312
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,680
covered in thick snow. So the chances of all four

313
00:19:25,759 --> 00:19:30,880
of them falling into this ravine in thick and smashing

314
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:35,839
themselves so hard that it's just not feasible really, So

315
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:40,000
it's a no real explanation for those injuries, which is

316
00:19:40,039 --> 00:19:44,880
what comes to the autopsy when sorry, the final conclusion

317
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,920
of the report after the autopsies, which says they died

318
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:52,000
of an unknown compelling force. What does that mean?

319
00:19:52,599 --> 00:19:55,799
Speaker 1: Absolutely? I mean, obviously, just for everybody listening, there were

320
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,039
no signs of any vehicles in the bias. They hadn't

321
00:19:58,039 --> 00:20:00,000
literally been hit by a vehicle, so that would be

322
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,200
definitely rulled out straight to it. It was in the middle

323
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,279
of nowhere. There's no sense it has actually been hit

324
00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,160
by something, So you are left with the question, well,

325
00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:08,319
is it some kind of dropped from a height or

326
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,519
literally thrown? It is absolutely mystery, as you say, so

327
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:13,799
I can leave those kinds of injuries as safe. If

328
00:20:13,799 --> 00:20:16,039
it was falling into the ravine, which I'm obviously in

329
00:20:16,039 --> 00:20:18,400
the photographs you took them twenty thirty feet, how comes

330
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,599
you all felt at the same time and I know

331
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:24,160
one particular girl's injuries are particularly graphic and we can

332
00:20:24,319 --> 00:20:27,000
talk about them. And she had the bait of her

333
00:20:27,039 --> 00:20:28,559
mouth removed and tongue.

334
00:20:28,599 --> 00:20:30,960
Speaker 4: And yeah, I was just going to come to that. Sorry,

335
00:20:32,799 --> 00:20:35,599
that was gering, but it wasn't an injury as such.

336
00:20:35,759 --> 00:20:38,920
But it's one of the whole peculiarities of this story

337
00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,119
is that her tongue and the root of the tongue

338
00:20:42,519 --> 00:20:46,799
was described as missing. She was where she was lying

339
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,839
on the rock, there was in a stream, and the

340
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,480
stream had obviously it was frozen when they were there,

341
00:20:54,519 --> 00:20:57,640
but the eyes should start, you know, the snow and

342
00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:02,039
the eyes had started melting. So there's one explanation that

343
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:07,279
microorganisms had eaten away the tongue and the root, which

344
00:21:07,319 --> 00:21:10,559
is possible. Then that doesn't explain the other three that

345
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,920
were also in the stream, but their tongues were okay,

346
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,200
at least there was nothing in the autopsies about their tongues.

347
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,839
It just seems such a peculiar thing to say that

348
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,920
the tongue was missing. And I was in touch with

349
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:30,480
a pathologist who deals in cold weather deaths in Canada

350
00:21:31,079 --> 00:21:34,599
and he said it was extremely peculiar because his view

351
00:21:35,319 --> 00:21:39,319
of what happened to that group of four was He

352
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:46,559
says that he's been thirty years covering pathology in northern Canada,

353
00:21:46,839 --> 00:21:49,359
and he said he's dealt with a lot of deaths

354
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,240
of people frozen to death, But he said, where have

355
00:21:53,319 --> 00:21:55,440
they been left for a while? He says, what tends

356
00:21:55,519 --> 00:21:59,000
to happen is you get much smaller animals that haven't

357
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,920
been hibernating attacking the bodies. He would have expected to

358
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:10,039
see something like that that possibly my not mice hibernate,

359
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,960
but he said, some animals don't hibernate, and it would

360
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:17,200
be a much smaller animal that may have been eaten

361
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,799
away at the flesh, not on the faces. And we

362
00:22:20,839 --> 00:22:23,839
would have expected to have happened to the others as well.

363
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,440
There's no report of any of that. You could say, Okay,

364
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,279
well that's Canada, this is Russia. But they're very similar.

365
00:22:31,519 --> 00:22:36,079
The climate and the wildlife, it's all very similar. They've

366
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,799
got bears in the north there. They've got bears in

367
00:22:39,839 --> 00:22:43,400
the north in Siberia as well. But he said that

368
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,160
was one thing that he thought was odd about it.

369
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,759
He wouldn't have expected the tongue to have been eaten

370
00:22:47,839 --> 00:22:50,079
on its own or to have disappeared on it, so

371
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,720
I need have expected the flesh of the face to

372
00:22:52,799 --> 00:22:55,640
have gone first, and the same as it wouldn't have

373
00:22:55,720 --> 00:23:00,920
just affected one person, So it's a peculiar.

374
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,839
Speaker 1: Well, certainly, I know. Also that just mentioned a bit

375
00:23:03,839 --> 00:23:06,440
more about that section is that there was blood was

376
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,480
found in the stomach, suggestions she may have been alive

377
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,440
when it happened, as far as I've read, certainly, well.

378
00:23:12,559 --> 00:23:16,319
Speaker 4: It does say that there was blood found in her stomach,

379
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:22,920
so it implies that possibly the tongue had been removed

380
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,920
with a knife or cut out or whatever. But I

381
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,920
was also in touch with a surgeon who said to

382
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:35,880
me that to remove somebody's tongue willingly, it's one of

383
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,920
the mostical things you can do. You have to sedate

384
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:43,160
them and the tongue, various muscles have to be cut,

385
00:23:43,319 --> 00:23:45,920
and then the tongue has to be drawn out for

386
00:23:46,039 --> 00:23:49,839
you to actually cut it. So if you've got somebody

387
00:23:49,839 --> 00:23:53,680
who's unwilling there and they know the tongue is going

388
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,119
to be cut out, they're not just going to lie

389
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,880
there to pull their tongue right out of their head

390
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:03,319
unless they're being held completely a mobile, which again, if

391
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,240
you think about it. It's the it was late at night,

392
00:24:07,279 --> 00:24:11,559
there was a virtual blizzard blowing if dark. Unless they

393
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:16,200
had LAMB. It's an almost impossible thing to do if

394
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,279
you're going to torture somebody like that. It's and why

395
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,400
her well. One of the peculiar things about Luda, though,

396
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,920
is she was the most outspoken of the group. If

397
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,200
she always spoke her mind, and if she thought somebody

398
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,960
was an idiot, should tell them to their faith. And

399
00:24:33,319 --> 00:24:37,079
one Uri had said before he died that it saw

400
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,599
that she had her tongue missing, and yet she was

401
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,400
the one that couldn't control her tongue.

402
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 1: Rather unfortunately hopefully only a coincidence. It does make you wonder, like, oh,

403
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,640
blooming someone really did lose the plot there took her

404
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:51,920
tongue out Lord.

405
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,039
Speaker 4: For our theories that they were attacked, and she may

406
00:24:56,079 --> 00:24:58,880
have thought, well, you know, you look obviously as a

407
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,559
family program you can't and say you lot can go

408
00:25:01,599 --> 00:25:05,559
and reproduce somewhere else or whatever. And they took great

409
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:07,839
umbrage and said, well, we're going to teach you a lesson,

410
00:25:08,039 --> 00:25:11,160
But to actually take her tongue out and cut it off,

411
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,440
it's it's very well not impossible but a very very

412
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:15,319
difficult thing to do.

413
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 1: So imagine there's certain circumstances. You say, no lighting, absolutely

414
00:25:19,039 --> 00:25:21,519
freezing temperatures, it would have been I mean, unless you

415
00:25:21,599 --> 00:25:24,160
was already knocked unconsciously dated. But then that suggests they

416
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,880
met somebody else. But from what I understand, there's no

417
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,319
revidence that say they met anybody else at the time

418
00:25:29,759 --> 00:25:30,440
to have done this.

419
00:25:31,039 --> 00:25:33,279
Speaker 4: So the other thing is there's no footprints to back

420
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,720
that story. I've had people contact me on my email

421
00:25:37,799 --> 00:25:41,119
and say you're an idiot, because it's quite obvious that

422
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,839
it was the MANCI that did it, or it was

423
00:25:44,039 --> 00:25:48,000
escape prisoners, or it was special forces that did it.

424
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,880
But the thing is, there was only eight or nine

425
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,400
pairs of footprints that were counted the search parties when

426
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,240
they got there. So if there was eight, there was

427
00:25:57,319 --> 00:25:59,519
nine of them. So if there was eight or nine

428
00:25:59,559 --> 00:26:03,319
footprints that they counted, where are the other.

429
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,319
Speaker 1: Footprints exactly exactly to have.

430
00:26:06,279 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 4: Been escorted down if they were held at gunpoint, that

431
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,599
you'd expect for other footprints to be further out guarding

432
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,519
them or guiding them down to the tree line. So

433
00:26:17,559 --> 00:26:18,920
it doesn't really make a lot of sense.

434
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 1: Absolutely sorry, I was going to.

435
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 3: Say any of the injuries. I mean, I don't know

436
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,920
about avalanches, just putting it out there. Could it have

437
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:30,119
been caused by an avalanche?

438
00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 4: That's that's the first theory that I mean, when if

439
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,480
you look at the story first, an avalanche is the

440
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,960
first thing you think of. Because it's in the middle

441
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,000
of winter, it's in the northern ural mountains. You think, well,

442
00:26:47,039 --> 00:26:50,359
there's a lot of snow there. Obviously there might have

443
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,240
been a mini avalanche, or even as this survival export

444
00:26:53,279 --> 00:26:55,720
and I said, a slab of snow, which is the

445
00:26:55,759 --> 00:27:00,960
top layer of the snow, moving down and crushing some

446
00:27:01,039 --> 00:27:03,480
of them in the tent. The theory goes that they

447
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,559
were in the tent, a slab of snow moved down

448
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:12,359
and caused the crushing injuries to Luda and Zolatarev. They

449
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,359
got the worst of the injuries. The slow had come

450
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,799
down and crushed them while they were lying there in

451
00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:21,400
the tent. The rest of them had to slash their

452
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,599
way out to get out and help them out. But

453
00:27:25,519 --> 00:27:30,200
the contradictions start then because when they looked at the footprints,

454
00:27:30,279 --> 00:27:34,160
there was nobody. They were all walking unaided. So if

455
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,039
they'd had those terrible type of injuries. They'd have needed

456
00:27:37,079 --> 00:27:41,359
to have been carried down probably or certainly helped down.

457
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,119
And what they were saying is that everybody, all the

458
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,640
footprints seemed to be people walking under their own steam.

459
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:54,079
The injuries to Zolotarev and Dubunina were so bad that

460
00:27:54,559 --> 00:27:57,359
certainly should they wouldn't have expected her to last for

461
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:02,039
longer than twenty minutes, because her chest was completely crushed

462
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,880
in and so was his. He was in a really

463
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:09,640
bad way as well. They were all extremely thin, and

464
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,960
he'd fought in the Second World War. It fought at Stalingrad,

465
00:28:14,039 --> 00:28:17,640
so he's quite a tough cookie. But even with all that,

466
00:28:17,799 --> 00:28:20,799
they haven't got anything on their feet. They're not dressed

467
00:28:20,839 --> 00:28:25,240
for the cold. So with serious injuries, your survival time

468
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:29,359
is reduced even more so and enthirely unlikely. I don't

469
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,680
know what, but it must be like on a crushed chest,

470
00:28:31,799 --> 00:28:35,039
but I can't imagine walk more few feet with it,

471
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:40,519
let alone walk down with a blizzard starting and walk

472
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,000
down in the snow. I'd certainly be looking for somebody

473
00:28:43,039 --> 00:28:45,799
to help me. But that's the theory about the avalanche.

474
00:28:45,839 --> 00:28:49,240
And but as I say, you can almost contradict it

475
00:28:49,279 --> 00:28:52,440
straight away I gonna say.

476
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: The other big problem, of course, is when the tent

477
00:28:53,839 --> 00:28:56,319
was found, this partial is still standing. If he hit

478
00:28:56,359 --> 00:28:58,000
by an avalanche, even a slow like it would be

479
00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,039
completely collapsed.

480
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 4: Wouldn't it. It would have been a flat land, and

481
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,039
that'd been a large slab would have probably gone right

482
00:29:07,079 --> 00:29:10,680
over it. But it hadn't. The the excuse me, the

483
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,559
tent poles at both ends were still standing, so it

484
00:29:14,599 --> 00:29:17,480
doesn't really follow. And the other the other thing about

485
00:29:17,519 --> 00:29:21,079
it is when I stood where that's getting a lot

486
00:29:21,119 --> 00:29:23,880
of people don't really know exactly where the tent was,

487
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,359
but you can work it out more or less roughly.

488
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,200
But if you look at it up on the ridge

489
00:29:29,279 --> 00:29:32,960
from where the tent was approximately you just think there's

490
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,319
no way that snow would have built that distance. It's

491
00:29:36,319 --> 00:29:39,240
hardly any You can see it on my website. I

492
00:29:39,319 --> 00:29:41,599
still where the roughly was, and I took a photo

493
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,519
to the left, a photo straight above where the ten was,

494
00:29:44,559 --> 00:29:47,839
and a photo to the rock, and there's there's hardly

495
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,160
any slope there. There would have been an off run

496
00:29:51,279 --> 00:29:53,640
for an avalanche to build up. And the other thing

497
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,000
is one of the search parties, the leaders are one

498
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,200
of the search parties had said that his experience in

499
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,920
the Northern Murals that it was very rare to have

500
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:08,759
avalanches because the fairly gentle mountains, and that they're not steep.

501
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,440
And the other thing is where that ridge is the wind.

502
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,799
There's a constant wind blowing across it, which tends to

503
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,599
lift all the snow near the top. It creates a

504
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,440
kind of a swirling effect after it goes over the

505
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,400
top of the ridge and it lifts the snow that's there,

506
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:26,880
so it's not very deep either.

507
00:30:27,319 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 3: Now I want to take Keith back to the actual

508
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,559
point of the tent because there's a lot of things

509
00:30:32,559 --> 00:30:36,400
that surrounding the tent that don't add up, isn't there, Keith.

510
00:30:37,279 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 4: That's right, Yeah, it's one of the things. When the

511
00:30:41,279 --> 00:30:46,799
searchers found the tent, there was a flashlight on top

512
00:30:46,839 --> 00:30:50,359
of it. The tent had been covered with a sort

513
00:30:50,359 --> 00:30:55,759
of fairly thin layer of snow, but the flashlight wasn't

514
00:30:56,079 --> 00:30:59,279
just had a very light sprinkling. It's almost as if

515
00:30:59,319 --> 00:31:02,480
the flashlight had been laid on top of the It

516
00:31:02,599 --> 00:31:04,119
was a Chinese made one, but it looked as if

517
00:31:04,319 --> 00:31:06,279
somebody had just put it on top of the tent

518
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,359
and it was remarked on that it was strange that

519
00:31:09,359 --> 00:31:12,680
that wasn't covered with snow like everything else was. So

520
00:31:12,759 --> 00:31:16,559
then you come into another area that the scene had

521
00:31:16,599 --> 00:31:21,240
been set by other people, that the death, As I say,

522
00:31:21,279 --> 00:31:24,559
you go into another area of theories, that they died

523
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:30,960
somewhere else and that the scene at the tent. What

524
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,400
that theory is saying is that they didn't die there,

525
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:35,799
s not at the tent. That didn't die there anyway.

526
00:31:35,839 --> 00:31:39,200
But well, what they're saying is the whole scene of action,

527
00:31:39,319 --> 00:31:41,519
if you like, took place somewhere else, but the tent's

528
00:31:41,519 --> 00:31:43,880
been plunged there and made to look as if that's

529
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,519
where it all happened, and that they ran away from it.

530
00:31:47,839 --> 00:31:52,720
But again it's just another theory. But the actual tent itself.

531
00:31:53,319 --> 00:31:56,440
One of the oddities I found which people are looking

532
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:01,880
at at the moment is the fact that the slashes

533
00:32:02,519 --> 00:32:07,599
to the tent appear to have been made from the inside. Now,

534
00:32:07,759 --> 00:32:11,400
when the tent was taken back for examination to have

535
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,920
it looked at properly, it was examined by a seamstress

536
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:21,000
who had she who had said that the cuts were

537
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,960
made from the inside of the tent, And I did

538
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,519
say earlier. I didn't mention earlier the tent had been

539
00:32:26,559 --> 00:32:29,599
cut again by some of the search party to make

540
00:32:29,599 --> 00:32:32,559
the holes bigger. They openly admitted it because they were

541
00:32:32,559 --> 00:32:35,279
trying to get inside, to open it all up and

542
00:32:35,319 --> 00:32:38,079
see what was inside. So some of the cuts were

543
00:32:38,119 --> 00:32:41,039
made afterwards, if you like. But her view of the

544
00:32:41,079 --> 00:32:44,440
cuts that were made for supposedly the group to get

545
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,640
out in a panic or in a hurry were made

546
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,039
from the inside, so she deduced that they'd all been

547
00:32:50,079 --> 00:32:53,680
cut from the inside. But having said that, you think, well,

548
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,759
it's a seamstress. She knows about cutting fabric, et cetera,

549
00:32:57,839 --> 00:33:02,279
et cetera, but really call for as some a forensic

550
00:33:03,119 --> 00:33:06,920
specialist to look at it. Yeah, cuts, I doubt if

551
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,480
she had. I don't know what for the forensic facilities

552
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:14,000
they had available in the Soviet Union in nineteen fifty nine,

553
00:33:14,039 --> 00:33:18,000
but I can't imagine it was CSI in New Orleans

554
00:33:18,079 --> 00:33:21,279
or anything like that. But as one of the things

555
00:33:21,279 --> 00:33:26,599
that were I believe that the newery at the Diatlo Foundation.

556
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,200
I didn't mention it as I'd been contacted by somebody

557
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,680
about it and whether they were going to look at

558
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,680
doing some tests on fabric from tents from that time

559
00:33:38,519 --> 00:33:42,400
to see if it could be cut and deduced, given

560
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,079
to a forensic expert to see if they could tell

561
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,519
which side it had been cut from. I think that

562
00:33:47,599 --> 00:33:49,680
might be quite interesting, definitely.

563
00:33:49,759 --> 00:33:51,319
Speaker 1: I mean, one thing obviously you've got to just clear

564
00:33:51,359 --> 00:33:53,799
up for people is that we're talking about tents in

565
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,160
nineteen fifties, so there weren't zips at the front, which

566
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,680
you do undoing a few seconds. There were buttons like

567
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,839
the topocoat. Buttons take longer to do that than to

568
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,000
cut the way out. So it's clearly suggest something spoke

569
00:34:05,039 --> 00:34:06,680
them from them to decide to cut the way out

570
00:34:06,759 --> 00:34:09,360
rather than under the buttons. One of the things that

571
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,000
I've come across I wanted to ask, particularly about Keith,

572
00:34:12,079 --> 00:34:14,400
was the idea of once they had cut their way out,

573
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,400
that they appeared to be walking away rather than running.

574
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,440
I don't know if that means anything to you, have you?

575
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,039
Speaker 4: Well? Well, to me, that's that's the crux of the

576
00:34:23,079 --> 00:34:25,880
whole thing. If you're going to cut yourself out of

577
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,400
that a tent, why would you walk? Because the employer

578
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,360
you're destroying your only place of safety to get out,

579
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,880
and then you start walking away. It doesn't make any

580
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,599
sense if there was something that they were getting away

581
00:34:39,599 --> 00:34:43,519
from inside the tent. Once you're outside, you think we're

582
00:34:43,559 --> 00:34:47,679
away from There's been talk of some kind of poisoning

583
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:52,960
inside the tent or from the stove, which isn't correct anyway,

584
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,639
because they've found it in the stowed position. It had

585
00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:58,719
been new, well it hadn't been used, but it hadn't

586
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,880
been they're saying few from the stove. But even if

587
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:07,920
you were doing that, once you're outside, well you'd presumably

588
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,239
try and clear the fumes out and get back, because

589
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,519
like I said, it's your only place of safety, it's

590
00:35:13,559 --> 00:35:16,760
the only cover you've got. But to destroy it and

591
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,960
then get outside and then walk away just as make

592
00:35:20,039 --> 00:35:22,920
any sense. And the other thing is that if if

593
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,760
there was a let's argument, say, say a group of

594
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,360
individuals outside the tent that said we're going to kill

595
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,360
you all or whatever, or fired a shot over the

596
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,039
tent and they were quite frightened of what was happening

597
00:35:36,079 --> 00:35:41,280
and they slashed their way out, you probably might have felt, well,

598
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,480
let's make a run for it or whatever. So you

599
00:35:44,519 --> 00:35:47,079
wouldn't just walk casually away from it, which is what

600
00:35:47,119 --> 00:35:50,920
the footprints seemed to say, And the thing is, if

601
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,400
there have been other people outside it, they didn't follow

602
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:58,800
them down because they were in their The footprints only

603
00:35:59,119 --> 00:36:02,840
were of the group, not of anybody else. This is

604
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,039
the trouble. Every time we go down a particular path,

605
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:07,480
something contradicts it.

606
00:36:08,079 --> 00:36:11,519
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. One of the just thinking which I wanted

607
00:36:11,559 --> 00:36:13,400
to come on to a second as well as we

608
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,760
were talking briefly off there before. The idea that struck

609
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:18,559
me was the idea of some kind of strange not

610
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,480
light anomally that was outside the tent, that was quite bright,

611
00:36:21,559 --> 00:36:23,639
that unnerved them to the point they thought they were

612
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:25,519
going to be something to land on them, or someone

613
00:36:25,559 --> 00:36:28,000
said in their direction, cut their way out quickly to

614
00:36:28,119 --> 00:36:30,079
escape it and to discover that actually it was something

615
00:36:30,119 --> 00:36:33,360
in the sky further away. But then for some reason

616
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,079
fact they wanted to get away from it, still not

617
00:36:35,079 --> 00:36:37,679
necessarily run mad, but just wanted to get away from

618
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,199
whatever that was. Because I know, as we were talking

619
00:36:40,199 --> 00:36:42,559
briefly before we started, there was a particular instance that

620
00:36:42,599 --> 00:36:46,000
you discovered in the early two thousands about strange light anominies.

621
00:36:46,039 --> 00:36:48,880
I wonder iful, perhaps that would that make any sense

622
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,159
to you that they thought they'd seen something that was

623
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,599
unnerving them cut their way because they were panicking. I

624
00:36:53,639 --> 00:36:55,760
need to discover it wasn't as close by, or wasn't

625
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:57,960
what they thought, and then still decided to get away

626
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,159
from it, andmately. Of course they didn't run, so it

627
00:37:00,199 --> 00:37:02,599
still has a problem. But does that kind of make

628
00:37:02,599 --> 00:37:03,159
any sense?

629
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,199
Speaker 4: Well, it does, it does to me, I think. I'm

630
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,719
mentioned in an interview once before. I went camping several

631
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,280
years ago down in Devon and we were on a

632
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,000
campsite which it was all fairly quiet, and a bunch

633
00:37:16,039 --> 00:37:19,679
of yobs came in a car. They were all looted

634
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,599
out of their heads and the car headlights were on

635
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,519
and I actually thought they were going to run me

636
00:37:24,599 --> 00:37:28,280
over in my tent. I actually rushed out of the

637
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,679
tent because I had the flaps were undone, but the

638
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,760
car was God, it must have been about two hundred

639
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,000
feet away. They were well away from me, but there

640
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,920
were the headlights lit up the whole inside of the tent,

641
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,320
and I thought, I actually thought they were going to

642
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,079
run me over, but not delivering, you know, I mean,

643
00:37:46,079 --> 00:37:49,039
they were just steaming drunk, but they were driving around

644
00:37:49,079 --> 00:37:52,280
in the car and the police were called. Eventually but

645
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,039
I literally thought the car was only a few feet

646
00:37:55,079 --> 00:37:57,199
away from the tent and that was going to be

647
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,000
a dead man. But like I said, I jumped down,

648
00:38:00,639 --> 00:38:02,920
and if you like, the danger was a couple of

649
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,800
hundred feet away from me. There were nowhere near me,

650
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,199
and the car turned away. But the effect it had

651
00:38:09,199 --> 00:38:11,639
on me in the tent, I'll always remember it to

652
00:38:11,679 --> 00:38:16,639
this day. It was really frightening. But on the subject

653
00:38:16,639 --> 00:38:19,320
of the lights, the lights are a big part of

654
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:23,639
this story because from everything that's been said about this story,

655
00:38:23,679 --> 00:38:27,239
there was something going on in the night sky because

656
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,800
several witnesses had seen it. It was seen by people

657
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,440
in Ivdel, which was eighty miles away. But there seems

658
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:39,199
to be some kind of light phenomenon going on, whichever

659
00:38:40,679 --> 00:38:45,239
I don't know. There's various theories about it, military tests, rockets,

660
00:38:46,159 --> 00:38:50,840
there's talk of ball lightning. There is a theory on

661
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:55,400
the ball lightning coming down and that's what caused them

662
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,920
to go out of the tent, and that the lightning

663
00:38:58,039 --> 00:39:01,760
was what was seen by people. But all the witnesses

664
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:06,320
were a good thirty to forty miles away. The work

665
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,599
has been done on the negatives, which I'll put into

666
00:39:09,599 --> 00:39:16,000
my book by somebody at the Diatlo Foundation, which shows

667
00:39:16,079 --> 00:39:20,320
certain things in the negatives taken at night. Some of

668
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:24,559
them are inexplicable. Some people say it's just damage to

669
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,239
the negatives, but some of the things are repeated in

670
00:39:28,599 --> 00:39:32,719
They can't tell whose cameras the negatives are from. One

671
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,559
of them has got Zolatarov, so we know one of them.

672
00:39:35,559 --> 00:39:38,480
We know that Solatarov had a camera because he was

673
00:39:38,519 --> 00:39:41,239
found with the camera around his neck when he had

674
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:46,280
all the crushed in ribs. So part of the belief

675
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,760
is that he was outside the tent taking photographs of

676
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,480
whatever was happening in the night sky. They could have

677
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:57,880
been military flares as part of a military exercise, but

678
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:03,119
again nobody that's part of the problem with that. Just

679
00:40:03,159 --> 00:40:05,760
because something's happening in the night sky, it doesn't imply

680
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:07,679
that that's what happened to them on the ground. But

681
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:13,039
it's quite a coincidence there's something happening that they've possibly

682
00:40:13,119 --> 00:40:16,000
taken pictures of some of it. It's been seen by

683
00:40:16,039 --> 00:40:20,360
other witnesses. There was another group of ski tourists from

684
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:26,360
the university on the Chess Stop Massive, which is an

685
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,840
area of mountain which is about thirty to forty miles

686
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:34,000
away from the Diatlogue Pass and they saw it as well.

687
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:38,679
So it's not denied that there was something going on

688
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:43,199
in the night sky because too many people have seen it. Basically, yeah, I.

689
00:40:43,119 --> 00:40:45,079
Speaker 1: Mean, I've looked at those photographs you were referring to

690
00:40:45,159 --> 00:40:47,119
the new ones that have developed someone. As you say,

691
00:40:47,119 --> 00:40:49,679
you really can't tell anything, but certainly one or two

692
00:40:49,679 --> 00:40:51,639
that looks like there is an object, isn't there in

693
00:40:51,639 --> 00:40:54,840
the sky and somewhat in the distance that you've magnified it. It

694
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,880
looks like it's something. What exactly is is a completely message,

695
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,400
but something does appear to a photographing something. I mean,

696
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:02,840
of course you've got the classic last photograph on the

697
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:04,760
real that we've always known about it, the strange sort

698
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,039
of what look could be described as being a flare

699
00:41:07,079 --> 00:41:09,880
in the distance or something close up completely had a focus.

700
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,760
But it certainly suggests that, as you say, there was

701
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,920
something in the sky that night. And so referring back

702
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,960
to the incident you described, if it was the early

703
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,559
two thousands with two people one work at the Boar mine,

704
00:41:21,599 --> 00:41:23,199
I think it was. And now there was a sort

705
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:24,920
of a ranger, if you like, in the in the

706
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,880
in the woods, not that they had strange experiences of

707
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,039
anomalous lights that actually scared them.

708
00:41:32,159 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 4: Do you mind story, brough Well, you're the You're a

709
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:43,199
Yakimov who was the foreman in the mine. He was

710
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,119
working on his own one night and a mind pit,

711
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:51,320
and he said there was a light drizzle and everything

712
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:57,199
was very quiet, and he suddenly became aware of something

713
00:41:57,599 --> 00:42:00,239
was going on around him, and he wondered if it

714
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,280
were because they have a lot of trouble up there

715
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:06,679
with theft of machinery and equipment and all the rest

716
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,199
of it. And he wondered if it was somebody up

717
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,000
to know good with I was going to try and

718
00:42:12,039 --> 00:42:15,280
steal some equipment. Anyway, he said a set of light.

719
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,360
He said there was a kind of a breeze, and

720
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,079
he said that he shouted out something like who's there

721
00:42:22,199 --> 00:42:25,639
or whatever, and a set of lights came on which

722
00:42:26,119 --> 00:42:30,159
were pointed at him, and he said it was a

723
00:42:30,199 --> 00:42:35,159
really strange feeling because there was no sound at all,

724
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:39,719
but very the lights were so powerful that he said

725
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:47,159
that the strength of the beams the shadows they were casting,

726
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,360
like if it hit a tree, the shadow of the

727
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,760
tree would be raise or shark the beam was that strong.

728
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,159
He said, you almost couldn't look at them because they

729
00:42:56,159 --> 00:42:59,519
were so bright. And he said that there was I

730
00:42:59,519 --> 00:43:01,199
think he said there were three or four of them

731
00:43:01,599 --> 00:43:04,800
in a row, as if four people were standing each

732
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:09,480
hold in a very strong light. So he continued looking

733
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:11,280
at them, but then he said what happened was the

734
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:15,920
light started coming towards him and they started splitting up.

735
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,719
The more lights were being created, and he said they

736
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,199
started juggling all over. He said the effect was if

737
00:43:23,559 --> 00:43:25,840
you had a group of people who were trying to

738
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:30,320
scare you, and that there were multiplying, and he said,

739
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,599
and the lights were going all over the place as

740
00:43:32,599 --> 00:43:35,880
if they were holding the light in their hands like

741
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,639
they say it was a flashlight that had a large handle,

742
00:43:39,039 --> 00:43:41,280
because he said the light started going all over the

743
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:43,239
place as if they were But he said, what the

744
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,800
effect was that they were coming towards him. And he

745
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,119
said the feeling he had was a real fear. So

746
00:43:49,519 --> 00:43:53,280
he got behind a piece of machinery and he hid

747
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,679
and everything stopped, but the lights. The light stopped and

748
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,320
still continued shining towards them, but he didn't look them,

749
00:44:00,639 --> 00:44:04,519
and eventually the lights just eventually switched off. He said

750
00:44:04,519 --> 00:44:09,440
there was a bang like a large electric electric shock,

751
00:44:09,559 --> 00:44:13,079
and a quite a strong breeze, and he said, but

752
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:15,159
he said, the effect that it had on him, he said,

753
00:44:15,159 --> 00:44:20,360
he felt really ill for several days afterwards, he said,

754
00:44:20,079 --> 00:44:22,320
he said it was a kind of a queasy feeling.

755
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:27,079
But he said that he went then to the works canteen.

756
00:44:27,119 --> 00:44:29,360
He felt he had to report it. But when he

757
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,000
started telling people, people looked at him and said, you're nuts,

758
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:37,639
Well you wud I suppose a blog comes along and

759
00:44:37,679 --> 00:44:41,039
starts saying some lights have attacked me and all the

760
00:44:41,079 --> 00:44:43,119
rest of it. And he said that he didn't really

761
00:44:43,199 --> 00:44:47,239
want to pursue it because his feeling was not what

762
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,199
he's going to believe me anyway, But he felt that

763
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,519
he should report it in a way because he thought, well,

764
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,920
no matter how strange the thing was that happened, he thought, well,

765
00:44:57,159 --> 00:45:00,639
if it is somebody playing silly game that and a

766
00:45:00,679 --> 00:45:04,039
load of equipment goes missing, he'll get the blame. That

767
00:45:04,039 --> 00:45:05,440
that was the one thing that was on his mind.

768
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,599
But he said he felt so ill that he almost

769
00:45:07,199 --> 00:45:10,480
he almost was going to take time off work. He

770
00:45:10,559 --> 00:45:15,039
felt so queasy and strange and tired. For it lasted

771
00:45:15,079 --> 00:45:17,599
for about a week to ten days. But anyway, about

772
00:45:17,599 --> 00:45:20,639
a short while after that, he read in the local

773
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:25,679
newspaper where forest stranger working in the same area, and

774
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,400
he's given me the coordinates of both where both incidents

775
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,119
took place. And they're not far from the diatlog pass.

776
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:34,920
I mean, they're not exactly next door, but they're in

777
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:39,800
the they're in the area. And this forest ranger was

778
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:43,000
an old seasoned salt I feel like, who'd spent all

779
00:45:43,079 --> 00:45:46,360
his life working in the forests on his own, and

780
00:45:46,599 --> 00:45:49,480
more to the point, he had a rifle with him

781
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:54,960
because his responsibility was to look after his area of

782
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,000
the forest and tend to the wildlife and just make

783
00:45:58,039 --> 00:46:00,519
sure everything was all right. So he've got a man

784
00:46:00,559 --> 00:46:03,320
who lives out in the forest, who's used to being

785
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:07,119
on his own and dealing with bears and wolves and

786
00:46:07,199 --> 00:46:10,159
everything else in all weathers. So not a blog that

787
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,440
was going to be easily frightened. And the same thing

788
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,559
happened to him because he tracked this forest stranger down.

789
00:46:16,599 --> 00:46:19,000
He read something in the paper about it, and he

790
00:46:19,039 --> 00:46:21,719
tracked him down and spoke to him, and he gave

791
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:23,800
a full account, and it was exactly the same thing.

792
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,199
It happened to him. He was sitting one night after

793
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:28,440
he'd done his work in his area of the forest,

794
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:33,199
and a set of lights lit up, and again the

795
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:35,159
same thing. He looked at him, and the lights started

796
00:46:35,199 --> 00:46:38,280
coming towards him, and he hid behind the log, and

797
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,599
his feeling was one of terrible fear as well. And

798
00:46:42,119 --> 00:46:44,239
don't forget, he had, as I say, quite a powerful

799
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:46,599
rifle with him as well, but he said he didn't

800
00:46:46,639 --> 00:46:49,039
even want to use it. He was just afraid of

801
00:46:49,039 --> 00:46:51,599
whatever it was that was there, because he felt that

802
00:46:51,679 --> 00:46:55,159
whatever it was, it wasn't human or if you like,

803
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:59,360
of this earth. He said. His only thought was to

804
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:01,480
try and get waste somehow, but he didn't want to

805
00:47:01,559 --> 00:47:05,119
show himself again. And the same after a couple of hours,

806
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,960
the lights the lights had stopped while he was hiding,

807
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,199
but he could see them because they were going over

808
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,239
the log where he was. And eventually the lights closed

809
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:17,519
down again with a massive electric kind of bang and

810
00:47:17,559 --> 00:47:20,360
again a breeze. So exactly the same thing had happened

811
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:25,119
to him. Now you could say, well, he's around on

812
00:47:25,119 --> 00:47:26,679
the bend as well and all the rest of it.

813
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:30,480
But I keep a very open mind on this type

814
00:47:30,519 --> 00:47:37,000
of thing. Because it's two different individuals working in It's

815
00:47:37,039 --> 00:47:41,159
not like two forest workers or two people from the

816
00:47:41,159 --> 00:47:45,199
same work gang, or two forestry workers. Two totally different

817
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:48,079
individuals and didn't know each other where exactly the same

818
00:47:48,119 --> 00:47:49,480
thing has happened to them.

819
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, we were wishing our chat room as the station

820
00:47:53,039 --> 00:47:56,119
manager owner were saying that there are incidents of strange

821
00:47:56,199 --> 00:47:58,119
life normally is sort of recorded for around the world.

822
00:47:58,119 --> 00:48:00,599
But what I find the most fascinating thing, so he's

823
00:48:00,639 --> 00:48:02,880
the fact how they were affected by them. These are

824
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,039
two guys you wouldn't normally have been spooked by anything

825
00:48:05,119 --> 00:48:07,199
like this, but yet they were both as say, to

826
00:48:07,199 --> 00:48:08,920
the point that one guy has a rifle a dozen

827
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:11,400
fans even using that, so he obviously felt a real

828
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:13,079
sense of danger in those lights.

829
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, and more to the point, I don't know what

830
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:20,679
to be like to actually have to live and work

831
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:23,000
in a forest nearly all your life, but you become

832
00:48:23,039 --> 00:48:25,599
a part of it, I suppose. But there's plenty of

833
00:48:25,639 --> 00:48:30,159
bears up there, there's packs of wolves. This this guy

834
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:33,159
was living in amongst them, and that that didn't phase

835
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:34,920
them at all. You know, he had a rifle for

836
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:37,320
the bears, But so there was something that was so

837
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,159
strange if you liked that was beyond his understanding, which

838
00:48:41,559 --> 00:48:44,519
basically is it is. He was so fearful by it

839
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:46,880
that he just didn't want to go anywhere near it.

840
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,039
He wanted to get as far away as possible. And

841
00:48:49,079 --> 00:48:53,639
he also had the same feeling of queasiness and tiredness

842
00:48:53,679 --> 00:48:57,239
for about a week afterwards, he said to your Reakimov,

843
00:48:57,519 --> 00:49:01,159
I met Youryakimov when I was over there a couple

844
00:49:01,199 --> 00:49:04,320
of times and interviewed him, and you can see a

845
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:07,360
picture of him on my website. You came, yes, yes, yes,

846
00:49:08,639 --> 00:49:10,840
but I find them quite plausible.

847
00:49:11,599 --> 00:49:14,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean to me, that's what strikes me is

848
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:16,960
the thing that maybe the lights, these anomalies were seen

849
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,159
by the group outside the tent. They cut their way out,

850
00:49:19,159 --> 00:49:21,199
the light disappears, but they think, I don't find hanging

851
00:49:21,199 --> 00:49:23,679
around and see if that comes back. And one of

852
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:25,960
the things that I've always found interesting is, of course

853
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:29,639
they had a cash of supplies in the woods not

854
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,000
too far away. And when I've looked at the map,

855
00:49:32,039 --> 00:49:34,599
this is my own thinker, don't you think of this, Keith?

856
00:49:34,639 --> 00:49:37,199
But it looks almost as if they took the wrong turney.

857
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,400
They came out of the tent when one direction, thinking

858
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:41,400
they were heading towards their food cash, I need to

859
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:43,920
realize that they'd gone the wrong way. And they kind

860
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:46,719
of kept going down to the edge of the trees,

861
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:49,280
partly because it gave them some cover, partly maybe getting

862
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,000
away from those lights, but in the hope that they're

863
00:49:51,039 --> 00:49:53,239
gone to the right place to their cash. Was I

864
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:55,400
going to realize they were in the wrong place, which

865
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:57,519
is why someone started to head back towards the tent.

866
00:49:58,079 --> 00:50:00,360
So you do I find wondering that maybe the sat

867
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:02,039
there waiting, is it a lot going to come back?

868
00:50:02,079 --> 00:50:03,440
You know, what is it going to affect us? And

869
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:05,400
then argue breaking out about whether to go back to

870
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:07,679
the tent or not. I mean, it doesn't explain everything, obviously,

871
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:09,559
but what do you think of that? The idea that

872
00:50:10,079 --> 00:50:11,079
they went in the wrong direction.

873
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 4: It's quite possible because when we were camping there, we

874
00:50:16,079 --> 00:50:19,719
actually can't where the cash was at the base of

875
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:24,679
the mountain, and it's quite a steep run upper. But

876
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:26,559
it would have made sense to have come out of

877
00:50:26,599 --> 00:50:29,559
the tent and then to and I must have been

878
00:50:29,559 --> 00:50:32,159
that's quite a plausible scenario that they would have gone

879
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:34,920
back towards it because it really I can see why

880
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,519
they went where they went down to the tree line,

881
00:50:37,559 --> 00:50:40,639
because that was where that tree line is. And bear

882
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:44,760
in mind it's moved forward now about It must have

883
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,800
been at least one hundred meters the trees have started

884
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:51,920
moving up the up the slope of the mountain from

885
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:55,760
when they were there. But it was actually the closest

886
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,320
point to the tent. But it would have made far

887
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:02,320
more sense to have if you like, guided yourself slightly

888
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:05,360
to the right to get back to where they'd left

889
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:07,840
the cash. To get to get there's a stone belt

890
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,880
ridge there that runs down from the mountain. It's sort

891
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,880
of dips down and then it comes up again to

892
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:18,119
where there's a lot of exposed rocks, and they were

893
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:20,079
they were to the side of that, so they had

894
00:51:20,159 --> 00:51:22,880
to have gone around that area to get to where

895
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:25,920
the cash was. And again, that doesn't make a lot

896
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:28,480
of sense that they would not go there, because at

897
00:51:28,559 --> 00:51:31,239
least there was some food there. There was there was

898
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:34,039
some supplies and provisions. That would have made more sense

899
00:51:34,079 --> 00:51:36,280
to do that than to have gone where they did.

900
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,840
But you know, the other thing I suppose you got

901
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,000
to say is it was late at night. There was

902
00:51:43,119 --> 00:51:46,519
there was a blizzard. There must have been some element

903
00:51:46,679 --> 00:51:50,440
of being whatever had happened to them that had caused

904
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:52,920
them to do that. There must have been a maybe

905
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,039
an element of shock. Even so then they probably but

906
00:51:56,119 --> 00:52:00,880
you see again, they were up there testing themselves, if

907
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:03,719
you like. So here's something that happens out of the ordery.

908
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,280
You'd expect, you expected them possibly to say, well, let's

909
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:10,360
get a grip here and see what we're doing. I mean,

910
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:15,880
they walk into their virtual deaths with their feet and socks. Zola,

911
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:18,920
as I say, had fought it, had won medals for

912
00:52:19,119 --> 00:52:22,760
close combat fighting, and he'd fought in Stalingrad, so I

913
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:26,760
can't imagine he'd have been easily phased by something. But

914
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:29,079
it must have been something that was so shocking that

915
00:52:29,119 --> 00:52:30,719
it made them behave like they did.

916
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly as I said. Just my thinking about that.

917
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:35,559
They came out you saying, in a blizzard, they're in

918
00:52:35,599 --> 00:52:38,280
the dark, they've been disoriented at least by something that's

919
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:41,079
caused them to want to leave that they studied going

920
00:52:41,119 --> 00:52:43,079
one direction, and by the time reach the tree line,

921
00:52:43,679 --> 00:52:46,360
we've gone the wrong way.

922
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:49,519
Speaker 4: It's possible and certainly possible. I can see that. I

923
00:52:49,559 --> 00:52:51,320
can see that the tree line is a place of

924
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:55,559
safety in the I mean, part of my theory on

925
00:52:55,599 --> 00:52:58,119
the Soviet military thing is if that if there was

926
00:52:58,159 --> 00:53:01,880
an exercise going on and two aircraft had supposedly flown

927
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:06,480
over that two boars, if there'd been a couple of explosions. Alatara,

928
00:53:06,639 --> 00:53:10,159
who has got military experience and has fought in the

929
00:53:10,199 --> 00:53:12,679
war as maybe said, were we we've ended up in

930
00:53:12,679 --> 00:53:14,480
the middle of an exercise. Let's get the hell out

931
00:53:14,519 --> 00:53:17,000
of here, or at least get to the trees where

932
00:53:17,039 --> 00:53:19,519
if there's going to be blasts and trapnel were better

933
00:53:19,599 --> 00:53:23,719
protected down there. And it could be that the blasts

934
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:26,639
were happening a bit further away, But it made sense

935
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:28,599
to think, well, we're in a in the middle of

936
00:53:28,639 --> 00:53:30,679
an exercise, to try and at least get to a

937
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:35,440
place of safety, even if we're leaving ourselves exposed. So

938
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:37,320
it's possible.

939
00:53:38,519 --> 00:53:41,360
Speaker 3: You have given them a bit of you know, protection

940
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:44,280
from the exposure as well, wouldn't it Well.

941
00:53:44,159 --> 00:53:48,119
Speaker 4: We would, yeah, it gave would give them protection for

942
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:52,519
the wind up there is by I was there in

943
00:53:52,599 --> 00:53:56,119
August and every time we went up onto the mountain.

944
00:53:56,559 --> 00:53:59,679
It's a constant. I'm not saying it blows you over,

945
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:01,440
but it seems to come over the top of the

946
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:04,360
mountain and it comes over the ridge and it's just

947
00:54:04,519 --> 00:54:08,119
constantly against It's like you're standing there and there's somebody's

948
00:54:08,119 --> 00:54:10,760
standing beside you and they're leaning on you're pushing you over.

949
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:14,679
I remember I injured my knee quite badly up there,

950
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:17,000
and I went up onto the where they had the

951
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:20,719
memorial rockies where they've got the Datlob memorial, and it

952
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,800
was so bad. I was standing there and I hobbled

953
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:25,360
around at the other side of it just to get

954
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:29,760
away from the wind. So that wind, it really is constant.

955
00:54:30,079 --> 00:54:32,519
So if you think that's in August and it was

956
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:35,280
chilly en off in August, you can imagine what to

957
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:38,840
be like at minus twenty seven and minus forty, so

958
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:41,480
it would literally cut through you.

959
00:54:41,559 --> 00:54:42,280
Speaker 1: Absolutely.

960
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,360
Speaker 3: Well, there's another aspect of this that I was quite interesting.

961
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:47,800
But they lit a fire, didn't I.

962
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:53,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, they attempted to, like well, they did like it,

963
00:54:53,199 --> 00:54:56,480
because the burn marks on the bodies showed that there

964
00:54:56,559 --> 00:54:59,639
must have been some flames from it. But it was

965
00:54:59,679 --> 00:55:05,559
a I'm not saying a half hearted attempt, but it

966
00:55:05,679 --> 00:55:07,800
wasn't enough to keep them alive By any stretch of

967
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:12,000
the imagination, and even if they've got a massive, roaring

968
00:55:12,119 --> 00:55:14,880
fire going, it has to be said that how long

969
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:17,280
would that have kept them going because they had to

970
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:21,000
constantly be going away from it to get more wood.

971
00:55:21,599 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 2: So it was relighted.

972
00:55:24,159 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 3: Was like a fire start or something like that on

973
00:55:27,679 --> 00:55:29,840
any of the bodies afterwards.

974
00:55:29,679 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 4: Well, it's peculiar because they're saying that some of them

975
00:55:33,079 --> 00:55:39,159
have matches. And the the man who was lev Vano's boss,

976
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:43,480
who I've got the two interviews with him in my book,

977
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:48,400
he said that there was matches lying around by the fire,

978
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:53,960
although there's nothing reported about the matches in the actual

979
00:55:54,679 --> 00:55:58,159
So the you know, the initial invested, the investigation that

980
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:01,079
was carried out, but it's believed that had some matches

981
00:56:01,119 --> 00:56:05,320
to start the fire, but other people disputed. But I

982
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:07,559
don't see how they could have done it without matches.

983
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:13,039
Speaker 1: Absolutely be questionable with matches win. It's that kind of

984
00:56:13,079 --> 00:56:14,159
cold and the wind's blowing.

985
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just.

986
00:56:15,159 --> 00:56:17,840
Speaker 3: Thinking that it's bad enough in just like a breeze.

987
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:19,920
Isn't it like a match let alone in those kind

988
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:20,440
of winds.

989
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:23,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, there was there would have been protection where

990
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:28,280
they were because they were the cedar tree, although it's

991
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:31,800
now within the forest if you like, because it's the forests.

992
00:56:32,159 --> 00:56:36,000
They were on the edge of the tree line there,

993
00:56:36,039 --> 00:56:38,280
but there is a bit of protection from the wind

994
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:41,159
because the wind is quite as harsh down there. But

995
00:56:41,159 --> 00:56:42,960
there still would have been it still would have come

996
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,679
down the mountain. There would have still been wind. There

997
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:48,840
was a strong wind blowing that night, so there still

998
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:51,239
would have been some effect of the wind, and it

999
00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:53,559
would have been pitch black as well. So I just

1000
00:56:53,559 --> 00:56:57,960
don't see how basically, I couldn't see how they could

1001
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:01,440
do anything considering it was so dark. The whole thing

1002
00:57:01,559 --> 00:57:05,280
is just peculiar. Where they built the snow shelter, You think, well,

1003
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:07,519
they must have been feeling their way around even to

1004
00:57:07,559 --> 00:57:07,960
do that.

1005
00:57:08,639 --> 00:57:10,760
Speaker 1: It would have been in the dark, of course it

1006
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:12,920
would have been yeah, yeah, But I noticed about the

1007
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:14,840
fact they were climbing. One of the of the trees

1008
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:17,360
had damage up to sixteen feet high, as if they

1009
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:20,079
were you were pulling branches off, or were climbing up

1010
00:57:20,079 --> 00:57:22,400
the trees to see if they could see further. Because

1011
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:25,000
I know, obviously you have a campfire burning, you were

1012
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:27,599
a light in the immediate area, but you actually blind

1013
00:57:27,679 --> 00:57:30,360
you do anything further away, so I could perhaps clean

1014
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:33,079
tree climbing to see if they could see anything going

1015
00:57:33,079 --> 00:57:36,119
on nearer the tent, perhaps branches.

1016
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:39,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I've stood by that tree and I've got

1017
00:57:39,239 --> 00:57:42,800
pictures of it on the website. There's some dispute as

1018
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:45,079
to whether it is the cedar tree, but it's it's

1019
00:57:45,079 --> 00:57:47,360
pretty down. You can see I'm not saying it's the

1020
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:50,280
branch as they broke, but you can see a number

1021
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:52,960
of the branch. I think a lot of souvenir hunters

1022
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:56,800
have been held themselves to it. But again, why would

1023
00:57:56,840 --> 00:58:00,679
you just constant? Why would you climb sixteen or twenty

1024
00:58:00,719 --> 00:58:03,719
feet up a tree when there's other trees about further

1025
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:07,400
down you can just snap them. I presumed maybe they

1026
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:10,400
didn't want to walk too far, but it implies that

1027
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:13,599
they were going up the tree to try and see

1028
00:58:13,639 --> 00:58:17,920
what was happening at the tent. Because what happens when

1029
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:21,400
you're when I was walking down from where the tent

1030
00:58:21,599 --> 00:58:25,880
was located, it kind of disappears from view it was

1031
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:28,840
held out. I mean, the tent wasn't up, but there

1032
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:32,599
was there's flags there, which they're not quite the height

1033
00:58:32,639 --> 00:58:36,440
of the poles. But as you're going down the slope

1034
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:40,840
towards the tree line, and you look back you can

1035
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:43,320
see it disappearing. It's almost like it's on a ledge

1036
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:46,840
and it starts to disappear from view. And part of

1037
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:49,880
the theory is that they've gone up the cedar tree

1038
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:53,199
to look back to the tent. But why would you

1039
00:58:53,239 --> 00:58:56,719
do that if there wasn't a reason to. Then there

1040
00:58:56,800 --> 00:58:59,320
must have been some reason. And again I think that's

1041
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:02,800
quite clause that they were doing, because they found skin,

1042
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:06,480
you know, that have been torn and stuck on the

1043
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:11,519
on the tree itself. There was obviously bodily marks left

1044
00:59:11,559 --> 00:59:13,880
on the tree from where they've been climbing up it

1045
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:16,800
and maybe cut or graze themselves on it. So they

1046
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:19,360
must have been going up there to try and see

1047
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:23,800
the tent. But again, without light, you couldn't see.

1048
00:59:23,519 --> 00:59:27,199
Speaker 1: Anything unless they believe there was some kind of normally

1049
00:59:27,199 --> 00:59:27,440
that was.

1050
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 4: Visible there at the tent of some kind.

1051
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:34,039
Speaker 1: Ye, unless it was some kind of a life normally,

1052
00:59:34,039 --> 00:59:37,039
perhaps it did reoccur, which is what kept them perhaps

1053
00:59:37,079 --> 00:59:38,440
away from going back to it.

1054
00:59:38,719 --> 00:59:41,159
Speaker 4: Well, the theory is that they went. One of the

1055
00:59:41,159 --> 00:59:44,840
theories is that they went there to escape whatever was

1056
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:48,800
there and would were waiting for it to die down

1057
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:53,039
before they went back. But if you've got any sense,

1058
00:59:53,079 --> 00:59:57,039
and they were all intelligent, educated people, they were obviously

1059
00:59:57,199 --> 01:00:01,639
in mortal danger for what they'd done. They put themselves

1060
01:00:01,679 --> 01:00:06,559
into extreme cold with wearing virtue virtuale and other they

1061
01:00:06,599 --> 01:00:10,199
must have show it started shivering almost immediately, so it

1062
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:14,119
was just a matter of time before hypothermia overcame them anyway,

1063
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:18,360
let alone the serious injuries. But presumably if there was

1064
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:22,400
something that the tent that was dangerous, then there must

1065
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:24,559
have been more of a danger than the danger than

1066
01:00:24,599 --> 01:00:25,079
they were in.

1067
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:28,519
Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah, I mean obviously if they don't even have

1068
01:00:28,599 --> 01:00:31,480
the time to get dressed properly slash the way out

1069
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:34,920
of the tent to escape it. But you know, it

1070
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:36,599
often comes back to that same thought, Well, if it

1071
01:00:36,679 --> 01:00:38,840
didn't run away from it, then whatever it was they

1072
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:40,920
thought there would be threatened by clearly wasn't there when

1073
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:43,920
they got outside, but decided, regardless of the fact that

1074
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:46,119
the tent was still probably still serviceable even it had

1075
01:00:46,119 --> 01:00:48,559
holes in, started to walk away from it. You know,

1076
01:00:49,159 --> 01:00:51,719
it always strikes because that just seems an odd thing

1077
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:54,199
to do. However, you kind of try and paint the picture.

1078
01:00:54,480 --> 01:01:00,920
Speaker 5: Well, it does the only thing it's that possibly they

1079
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:05,920
that And again I know it's my pet theory, but

1080
01:01:06,079 --> 01:01:07,440
contradict it if you want.

1081
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:10,679
Speaker 4: But if there was a military exercise going on, like

1082
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:14,000
me in the tent that night with that car, I

1083
01:01:14,039 --> 01:01:16,000
thought the car was literally on top of me, and

1084
01:01:16,079 --> 01:01:18,639
it wasn't. There was a Okay, I didn't slash my

1085
01:01:18,719 --> 01:01:20,840
way out, but I really got out of there as

1086
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:23,679
fast as I could. Could it be that they slashed

1087
01:01:23,719 --> 01:01:26,679
the way out of the tent. The explosions they heard

1088
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:29,480
were maybe a third of a mile away, but the

1089
01:01:29,519 --> 01:01:33,760
mere fact there was explosions and lights coming down. Zlatara

1090
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:36,920
may have said, we're in where there's a military exercise

1091
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:41,000
going on over there. There's a danger it's coming this way.

1092
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:45,960
You wouldn't necessarily run, but you'd start walking quickly. It's

1093
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:48,840
a possibility if it's far enough the way, but you

1094
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:51,599
realize if it gets any closer, you're in great danger.

1095
01:01:52,039 --> 01:01:54,159
But he said it could be. He said, let's get

1096
01:01:54,199 --> 01:01:56,559
down to the tree line, wait till this passes, and

1097
01:01:56,599 --> 01:02:00,360
we'll come back. Because you wouldn't necessarily run at that point,

1098
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:03,199
you could just walk fast. I think it's just a

1099
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:05,400
it's just a guess, really.

1100
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:07,480
Speaker 1: It's some of the said that much experience you ever

1101
01:02:07,679 --> 01:02:09,800
studying this, and I think your guesses are pretty valid,

1102
01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:12,400
certainly well but contradicting.

1103
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:15,559
Speaker 4: You know, the thing with the military theory is there's

1104
01:02:15,599 --> 01:02:19,480
another theory that was put forward by a Russian journalist

1105
01:02:19,559 --> 01:02:22,440
and he was the first person who really started pulling

1106
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:26,360
this case apart, and his view was that they were

1107
01:02:26,719 --> 01:02:31,760
they died somewhere else and the military were responsible. They

1108
01:02:32,039 --> 01:02:36,320
they set the scene, if you like, of the tent

1109
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:39,480
where it was, and just put the bodies where they were,

1110
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:44,159
that they'd all died of from an explosion or whatever.

1111
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:46,719
The bodies had been moved from where it had happened,

1112
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:51,280
because where it had happened there was damage to trees,

1113
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:53,719
and you could work out pretty quick what may have

1114
01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:58,039
happened if you see trees uprooted or smashed branches, dead

1115
01:02:58,079 --> 01:03:00,320
birds and all the rest of it, and they they

1116
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:03,599
had been placed there. There was a pilot the day

1117
01:03:03,679 --> 01:03:07,320
before the tent was found by the searchers. There was

1118
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:10,840
a pilot who had flown over nearly the tent and

1119
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:13,400
had seen the tent on the side of the mountain,

1120
01:03:13,639 --> 01:03:17,199
and he said he saw two bodies beside it. Jannadi

1121
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:20,519
Patruccia of his name was. I met his widow when

1122
01:03:20,519 --> 01:03:24,159
I was over on my last visit, and she said

1123
01:03:24,199 --> 01:03:26,239
that she felt it was always very strange because he

1124
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:30,360
died in an air crash four years later, three or

1125
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:31,280
four years later.

1126
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:34,199
Speaker 1: So what do you think of the idea that he

1127
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:36,719
was all set up in terms of what he'd claimed

1128
01:03:36,719 --> 01:03:38,639
to have seen from his plane flying over.

1129
01:03:39,079 --> 01:03:43,760
Speaker 4: Well, he radioed back, which is what you would do.

1130
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:46,239
He radioed back the fact that he'd seen the tent.

1131
01:03:47,679 --> 01:03:50,440
And if you look in my book, there's an interview

1132
01:03:51,199 --> 01:03:57,679
with the man who is lev Vanov's boss, and he's

1133
01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:01,679
interviewed by a current I think he's just retired, and

1134
01:04:02,199 --> 01:04:07,440
Leonid Proshkin. He's, if you like, an up to date investigator.

1135
01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:10,480
He was doing the same sort of job, so if

1136
01:04:10,519 --> 01:04:13,800
you like, he got a modern detective interviewing an older

1137
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:17,800
detective to put it in a rough way, and he

1138
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:20,360
said that he's looked through the whole case files and

1139
01:04:20,400 --> 01:04:23,000
all the rest of it, and he said, I find

1140
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:26,840
a peculiar that every day that the search was going on,

1141
01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:31,920
there's between six to twelve telegrams going backwards and forwards,

1142
01:04:32,239 --> 01:04:35,039
and on the twenty fifth, the day he radio back

1143
01:04:35,519 --> 01:04:38,199
about the position of the tent. There's not one telegram.

1144
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:42,039
All the telegrams have disappeared. That is it said every day,

1145
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:46,039
literally every day over the whole period, you know, the

1146
01:04:46,079 --> 01:04:49,159
twenty first, twenty secon, twenty third, whatever, and then the

1147
01:04:49,199 --> 01:04:51,519
twenty fifth is nothing, and then the following day, the

1148
01:04:51,559 --> 01:04:53,880
twenty sixth, another dozen telegrams.

1149
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:55,960
Speaker 1: That is definitely suspect.

1150
01:04:56,039 --> 01:05:01,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, well that's an modern investigator Russian who said that

1151
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:04,039
to him, and when he said that to levy Van

1152
01:05:04,159 --> 01:05:08,199
as well. So if getting your orkashev, he says, I

1153
01:05:08,239 --> 01:05:11,360
can't explain that basically, which you can.

1154
01:05:12,119 --> 01:05:15,480
Speaker 3: Now, Ah, my goodness, where do you start? Because everything

1155
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:18,280
seems to contradict each other, doesn't it, Andy, You know,

1156
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:21,280
we seem to be going around in circles with this.

1157
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:24,599
You know, you've got almost like a frantic being left

1158
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:29,119
leaving the tent to calmly seeming to walk down to

1159
01:05:29,199 --> 01:05:33,320
the tree lines. And there are contradictions on every single

1160
01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:39,239
step of this. This incident is absolutely fascinating.

1161
01:05:39,119 --> 01:05:41,239
Speaker 1: Instally difficult to build up a complete coherent picture of

1162
01:05:41,239 --> 01:05:43,599
all the events that occurring to account for all of

1163
01:05:43,599 --> 01:05:47,320
them in any kind of conspiracy or explanation of an

1164
01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:49,800
unusual event has to be able to account for all

1165
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:51,519
the things that have occurred in order for it to

1166
01:05:51,559 --> 01:05:54,239
be seen as completely coherent and one you can absolutely

1167
01:05:54,320 --> 01:05:56,920
run with. But as keep saying, there are when again

1168
01:05:56,960 --> 01:05:59,800
the elements that suggest this could be my Russian military operation,

1169
01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:03,760
the kind of they indirectly found themselves the middle of all,

1170
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:06,480
actually got caught up indirectly. But again you have the

1171
01:06:06,519 --> 01:06:09,719
problem of no, not really lots of evidence of other

1172
01:06:09,719 --> 01:06:11,800
people being near them at the time, so it suggested

1173
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:16,360
something being seen further away. So I guess keif we

1174
01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:18,239
were to kind of drag you into court of law

1175
01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:21,400
and demand you give us your explanation, you would head

1176
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:24,159
towards the idea of a Russian military operation that they

1177
01:06:24,199 --> 01:06:27,199
were either indirectly caught up in or directly as in

1178
01:06:27,199 --> 01:06:28,440
they're actually in the center of it.

1179
01:06:29,159 --> 01:06:34,000
Speaker 4: Well, it's the owner is I would I tend towards

1180
01:06:34,039 --> 01:06:39,360
that course. Like the survival expert has knowledge of avalanches.

1181
01:06:39,719 --> 01:06:44,400
I've studied the Soviet military for many, many years, particularly

1182
01:06:44,599 --> 01:06:50,519
Soviet military aviation and the military activities of the Northern Urals.

1183
01:06:50,519 --> 01:06:55,840
That area is all about military aviation and missiles, So

1184
01:06:56,280 --> 01:07:00,760
it's not a recognized training area necessarily, but that's not

1185
01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:05,440
to say it wasn't. But it seems to tend towards that.

1186
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:10,320
But I'll contradict my own theory in that I know

1187
01:07:10,519 --> 01:07:15,320
enough about, say, missiles and bombers and aircraft to try

1188
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:18,800
and piece together some kind of scenario that happened to them.

1189
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:23,119
But I can't make it fit. That's the problem. I

1190
01:07:23,159 --> 01:07:27,400
can't say there were three Yak twenty fives flew over

1191
01:07:27,559 --> 01:07:30,400
from a base. There was a base about eighty miles

1192
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:36,039
away to the east. It doesn't seem to add up, though.

1193
01:07:36,079 --> 01:07:40,039
That's the problem. But the reason why I still tend

1194
01:07:40,119 --> 01:07:44,039
to think there's some kind of military involvement or whatever

1195
01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:48,440
is because there's two things. One is the radiation and

1196
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:52,960
the other one is the arrival which I put in

1197
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:57,679
my book of the arrival of the second most powerful

1198
01:07:57,760 --> 01:08:02,760
man in the Soviet legal system, who basically the day

1199
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:07,360
after the case was closed, sorry, the day after the

1200
01:08:07,599 --> 01:08:13,760
radiation report was finished, he arrived, went went to the

1201
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:17,319
prosecutor's office and went to see the local the heads

1202
01:08:17,359 --> 01:08:20,720
of the local Communist party in spurred Lovs and closed

1203
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:25,159
the whole case down. And he said to Klinov who

1204
01:08:25,239 --> 01:08:30,000
was in charge of the prosecutor's office, and to Ivanov

1205
01:08:30,159 --> 01:08:34,239
and to Akashov, tell them, I e. The parents of

1206
01:08:34,279 --> 01:08:38,439
the group, it was an accident and that's it. You know.

1207
01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:41,039
He didn't say anything else. And what he's saying, and

1208
01:08:41,039 --> 01:08:45,079
it's in my book what he's saying is what Akashov

1209
01:08:45,239 --> 01:08:48,479
was saying is that Urrokov sat there, he derived from Moscow.

1210
01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:52,560
It said he didn't have the slightest interest in what

1211
01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:55,680
they had to say about the case. He said he didn't.

1212
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:59,680
They asked him about armaments tests, he said, they said

1213
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:03,640
he did deny it, but he didn't say anything else either.

1214
01:09:03,920 --> 01:09:06,279
He said, it's almost as if the whole case was

1215
01:09:06,319 --> 01:09:08,880
clear to him. He knew what had happened, but he

1216
01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:11,880
wasn't saying anything. And then he says, close it down

1217
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:16,479
and tell them it was an accident. And what Kashov

1218
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:22,079
says is you imagine we've just found or recently found

1219
01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:26,239
the last four bodies which have got strange and terrible injuries,

1220
01:09:26,479 --> 01:09:29,079
and were told to close it down because he had

1221
01:09:29,159 --> 01:09:32,520
organized a trip back up to the di Atalog Pass

1222
01:09:33,279 --> 01:09:37,079
with a group of troops to really go around the

1223
01:09:37,119 --> 01:09:40,760
whole area and search and to try and see if

1224
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:42,640
they could get to the bottom of it. He said

1225
01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:44,359
they weren't allowed to do it. The whole thing was

1226
01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:48,000
just shut down. So why would you do that if

1227
01:09:48,039 --> 01:09:52,199
it was an avalanche or ball lightning? I mean, it's

1228
01:09:52,239 --> 01:09:55,479
a blow going to come from Moscow, the second most

1229
01:09:55,479 --> 01:09:58,880
powerful man in the legal system and not even admit

1230
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:02,520
its ball lightning or whatever or an avalanche, just say

1231
01:10:02,520 --> 01:10:04,319
close it down and tell them it was an accident.

1232
01:10:04,479 --> 01:10:06,199
Why would he even do that?

1233
01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:08,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that screens of the military incident being

1234
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:09,560
covered up, doesn't it?

1235
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:12,319
Speaker 4: It does to me, it does, but but I can't

1236
01:10:12,600 --> 01:10:16,840
I can't fit. If you like, you've got a jigsaw

1237
01:10:16,920 --> 01:10:19,439
there and you can't quite see the pieces, but I

1238
01:10:19,479 --> 01:10:20,479
can't make it fit.

1239
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:23,880
Speaker 1: That comes back to that same problem. Doesn't you got

1240
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:26,319
the guys in the ravine? How those injuries occur?

1241
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:32,119
Speaker 4: Yeah, And the other thing is about Akashova talks about radiation.

1242
01:10:33,680 --> 01:10:37,399
There's an implication that lev Vanov undertook that on his own.

1243
01:10:37,399 --> 01:10:40,359
I mean, he was just a detective if you like

1244
01:10:40,399 --> 01:10:43,159
the Soviet of equivalent, he was investigator. But if you

1245
01:10:43,279 --> 01:10:46,920
like a Soviet detective, anything to do with radiation and

1246
01:10:47,319 --> 01:10:54,199
nuclear is the whole subject of nuclear matters, if you like,

1247
01:10:54,239 --> 01:10:57,119
in the Soviet Union, would have been a red light area.

1248
01:10:57,199 --> 01:10:59,479
Would nobody in his right mind would go near it

1249
01:11:00,399 --> 01:11:04,399
if they thought that was responsible. So the instruction that

1250
01:11:04,479 --> 01:11:09,600
came for the radiation tests came from Moscow to conduct

1251
01:11:09,640 --> 01:11:12,199
tests and see if there's any radiation involved. So it

1252
01:11:12,239 --> 01:11:15,800
implies that there's something there to do with radiation, but

1253
01:11:15,920 --> 01:11:19,800
what exactly nobody knows. But don't forget also that the

1254
01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:24,000
whole area up there, they didn't close it down as

1255
01:11:24,039 --> 01:11:27,920
some people say. What happened was they wouldn't give permits

1256
01:11:27,960 --> 01:11:33,199
for anybody to visit. I mean just as today, to

1257
01:11:33,239 --> 01:11:35,920
go up there, officially you have to register with a

1258
01:11:36,319 --> 01:11:38,520
I had to register with the police and the Ministry

1259
01:11:38,520 --> 01:11:41,560
of Emergency Situations. You can do it without, but you

1260
01:11:41,560 --> 01:11:44,439
don't really want to get in trouble. You don't want

1261
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:47,199
to be stopped and asked for your papers by anybody,

1262
01:11:48,119 --> 01:11:50,760
and so what you're doing here and at least if

1263
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:55,439
you're registered you can travel okay. But in those days

1264
01:11:56,479 --> 01:11:59,800
security was very tight. You couldn't go anywhere you liked.

1265
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:03,359
Swirred Lobskin those days was a closed city, so they

1266
01:12:03,399 --> 01:12:06,039
just stopped giving permits out other than if you're a

1267
01:12:06,079 --> 01:12:08,560
forestry worker, you had a reason to be there, but

1268
01:12:08,800 --> 01:12:11,399
nobody else could go up there. So basically they closed

1269
01:12:11,399 --> 01:12:14,640
the whole area down for four years. So it makes

1270
01:12:14,640 --> 01:12:18,920
you wonder where they're doing something or whatever. If there

1271
01:12:19,039 --> 01:12:22,720
was elements of radiation up there, maybe they were tied

1272
01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:24,720
in that up. Who knows. That's the thing.

1273
01:12:25,319 --> 01:12:28,319
Speaker 3: In the autopsies of the bodies that they did. Wasn't

1274
01:12:28,359 --> 01:12:30,479
there radiation on some of the bodies.

1275
01:12:30,560 --> 01:12:33,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, there was, yeah, and on the clothes beta radiation,

1276
01:12:33,960 --> 01:12:39,720
which which is suggestive of military type radiation. Some people

1277
01:12:39,760 --> 01:12:44,439
have said it was fallout from there was a nuclear

1278
01:12:44,479 --> 01:12:49,439
bombs were tested up in an island mechanic pronounce it,

1279
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:56,800
but Novalla Zemlia up in the Arctic Ocean. That maybe

1280
01:12:56,800 --> 01:13:00,039
there had been fallout of radiation from those bombs, but

1281
01:13:00,079 --> 01:13:03,560
it's a bit fanciful. The thing is there's a nuclear

1282
01:13:03,640 --> 01:13:10,279
warhead storage area and they replaced nuclear warheads and getting

1283
01:13:10,319 --> 01:13:13,199
rid of the older ones in that that was there

1284
01:13:13,239 --> 01:13:17,439
when when this happened, that just started so that there

1285
01:13:17,479 --> 01:13:22,960
was a nuclear warhead storage area in that region. So

1286
01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:26,520
would there have been a leak or something from that? Again,

1287
01:13:26,600 --> 01:13:31,800
that's possible. Akishov says in his interview that he had

1288
01:13:33,239 --> 01:13:35,760
been talking to somebody who said that, I mean, there

1289
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:39,239
was a moratorium on nuclear tests. But he spoke to

1290
01:13:39,279 --> 01:13:43,319
somebody in the Soviet Union from that time who said

1291
01:13:43,319 --> 01:13:46,720
that they moved nuclear testing up from where it was

1292
01:13:46,760 --> 01:13:50,159
in the Caucasus up in the northern Urals. But he

1293
01:13:50,199 --> 01:13:53,920
wouldn't say any more than that. So there there's a

1294
01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:57,560
suggestion that there's some kind of nuclear testing going on

1295
01:13:57,720 --> 01:14:03,119
up there. But again, if you're testing, whether it's on

1296
01:14:03,279 --> 01:14:06,880
the ground or you know that they weren't allowed to

1297
01:14:06,920 --> 01:14:09,600
do it over they'd signed agreement not to do it overground.

1298
01:14:09,600 --> 01:14:11,880
But if there was some testing that was underground, could

1299
01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:13,640
it have been a leak of some kind from that?

1300
01:14:14,039 --> 01:14:15,239
It's quite possible.

1301
01:14:15,880 --> 01:14:20,760
Speaker 2: But the levels weren't that high.

1302
01:14:18,960 --> 01:14:22,279
Speaker 4: Well, they weren't that high, But it's a peculiar thing

1303
01:14:22,319 --> 01:14:25,640
to even test for while if you find bodies dead

1304
01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:28,000
that look, you know, if you found somebody who had

1305
01:14:28,039 --> 01:14:30,039
just been hit by a car, you wouldn't say testing

1306
01:14:30,159 --> 01:14:35,119
for radiation though that's true. Sorry I'm not being facetious there,

1307
01:14:35,159 --> 01:14:40,880
but you know, the whole radiation thing is odd. But

1308
01:14:41,159 --> 01:14:44,760
the beta particles wash off in water, and don't forget

1309
01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:48,880
all the bodies had been lying water for weeks, so

1310
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:51,159
a lot of the worst of the radiation have already

1311
01:14:51,199 --> 01:14:53,399
been washed away.

1312
01:14:55,960 --> 01:14:58,760
Speaker 1: There are some questions around the autopsies, aren't there about

1313
01:14:58,760 --> 01:15:01,840
exactly who had what injuries? From what I remember reading,

1314
01:15:02,319 --> 01:15:07,079
it's a bit slap dash as to how it was handled.

1315
01:15:07,399 --> 01:15:09,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, you are, but I'll be honest with you, I

1316
01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:13,960
don't believe the autopsies are I think. I think the

1317
01:15:14,000 --> 01:15:15,920
trouble is if you come to this case as a

1318
01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:19,079
newcomer and you look at it and you say, well,

1319
01:15:19,239 --> 01:15:21,439
it happened in nineteen fifty nine. There's a lot of

1320
01:15:21,439 --> 01:15:24,039
other paperwork, but we have got the autopsies. You look at,

1321
01:15:24,079 --> 01:15:27,760
but everybody looks at them as if they're as if

1322
01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:30,359
Moses had brought them down from the map. They're set

1323
01:15:30,520 --> 01:15:33,600
in stone, and you can't dispute anything. Well, why can't

1324
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:39,079
you dispute it? The Soviets were you know, we're quite

1325
01:15:39,119 --> 01:15:43,199
good at disinformation. To hide something, all you've got to

1326
01:15:43,239 --> 01:15:46,479
do is say, well, half of them died of hypothermia,

1327
01:15:46,720 --> 01:15:49,279
half of them died from terrible injuries. And you can't

1328
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:51,039
you can't explain it, can you?

1329
01:15:51,520 --> 01:15:51,760
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1330
01:15:52,039 --> 01:15:53,720
Speaker 4: Could it have been that they'd all been killed in

1331
01:15:53,720 --> 01:15:56,359
a blast, And it was obvious that they've been killed

1332
01:15:56,399 --> 01:16:00,000
in the black you know, burst lungs and ear drums

1333
01:16:00,439 --> 01:16:03,319
from the pressure a wave from a blast. But if

1334
01:16:03,359 --> 01:16:06,880
you put one cause of death that they'd all died

1335
01:16:06,920 --> 01:16:09,479
in a blast, it's quite obvious that the military are

1336
01:16:10,159 --> 01:16:14,199
or someone with the military is responsible. If you say,

1337
01:16:14,560 --> 01:16:18,159
even if you said they'd all died of hypothermia, people

1338
01:16:18,159 --> 01:16:22,199
and say, well, what the hell made them that? But

1339
01:16:22,359 --> 01:16:26,159
once you start mixing it all up, Luda's tongue missing,

1340
01:16:26,399 --> 01:16:30,680
I'm not even sure. I believe that you've got to

1341
01:16:30,760 --> 01:16:34,800
question everything, really, But the trouble is when you question everything,

1342
01:16:34,880 --> 01:16:38,520
then you've got nothing solid to base your theories on.

1343
01:16:39,279 --> 01:16:41,279
But I think that's it's meant to be.

1344
01:16:43,039 --> 01:16:45,439
Speaker 1: Again, we've got the photographs, of course of the bodies,

1345
01:16:45,479 --> 01:16:47,439
but we don't necessarily know that they've not been doctored

1346
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:50,039
either the actual physical bodies and not the photographs of

1347
01:16:50,079 --> 01:16:52,960
the bodies themselves not being changed around between being found

1348
01:16:53,000 --> 01:16:54,319
and then being a photographed.

1349
01:16:54,840 --> 01:16:57,000
Speaker 4: And I mean, all we know about the bodies is

1350
01:16:57,119 --> 01:17:03,159
that they died definitely in very strange circumstances. And then

1351
01:17:03,399 --> 01:17:06,199
the next thing you go along to is the report

1352
01:17:06,279 --> 01:17:10,319
of how they were all found and the autopsies. Those

1353
01:17:10,319 --> 01:17:13,920
are the only the one thing that might start looking

1354
01:17:13,960 --> 01:17:16,079
at it. But the trouble is if it's a pressure wave,

1355
01:17:16,800 --> 01:17:18,520
you wouldn't find them. But if you dug the bodies

1356
01:17:18,600 --> 01:17:21,960
up now you could test the bones for further radiation

1357
01:17:22,279 --> 01:17:26,359
or whatever possibly, or even the injuries. You could look

1358
01:17:26,359 --> 01:17:30,640
at the injuries again because of presumableeds. The bodies would

1359
01:17:30,680 --> 01:17:33,479
still have the broken limbs and everything, so you could

1360
01:17:33,479 --> 01:17:36,439
maybe work something out from that, but there's no chance

1361
01:17:36,479 --> 01:17:41,640
of exhuming the bodies for that anyway.

1362
01:17:42,399 --> 01:17:45,159
Speaker 1: I didn't know that some of the bodies are buried

1363
01:17:45,199 --> 01:17:47,680
in one graveyard and others are in a different graveyard.

1364
01:17:47,720 --> 01:17:49,640
They were most hoping to bring them all together, but

1365
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:52,640
even that's not been allowed as it for moving the bodies.

1366
01:17:53,039 --> 01:17:59,840
Speaker 4: No, there's two. Two of them are buried in an

1367
01:18:00,119 --> 01:18:04,640
the cemetery. I mean, there's talk about why that was done,

1368
01:18:04,680 --> 01:18:08,279
as if there was KGB involvement, because the other cemetery

1369
01:18:08,319 --> 01:18:11,640
is supposedly for higher ups of the time, if you like.

1370
01:18:11,760 --> 01:18:15,760
But I've been to both cemeteries and there's wild dogs

1371
01:18:15,800 --> 01:18:21,439
in them that people jacking up Heroin. They're not place

1372
01:18:21,600 --> 01:18:25,640
you really want to go in on your own. It's

1373
01:18:25,720 --> 01:18:34,199
the relatives that won't allow Zanatarev and it's Colabatov. The

1374
01:18:34,239 --> 01:18:37,079
relatives won't allow their two bodies to be exhumed to

1375
01:18:37,119 --> 01:18:41,600
be taken across to the main cemetery because Uri Union

1376
01:18:41,680 --> 01:18:43,279
is buried with the rest of them now in the

1377
01:18:44,239 --> 01:18:50,119
main area. But Uri con save it and the Diatlo

1378
01:18:50,279 --> 01:18:53,279
Foundation had made an attempt to at least try and

1379
01:18:53,279 --> 01:18:56,319
bring them all together, which is always quite a noble gesture,

1380
01:18:56,319 --> 01:18:57,640
but they wouldn't allow him to do it. So what

1381
01:18:57,680 --> 01:19:01,279
he did was he's moved. He dug up some of

1382
01:19:01,359 --> 01:19:05,880
the soil near the twos and he's moved that over,

1383
01:19:06,079 --> 01:19:09,000
so at least there's a kind of a symbolic gesture

1384
01:19:09,039 --> 01:19:10,039
of them being together.

1385
01:19:13,319 --> 01:19:16,840
Speaker 3: I was reading an article regarding this, and one of

1386
01:19:16,880 --> 01:19:21,199
the theories is to do with the infrasound phenomenon.

1387
01:19:23,079 --> 01:19:28,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's been put forward in one book. But the

1388
01:19:29,239 --> 01:19:33,920
thing is that there's two elements of that infrasound. One

1389
01:19:34,039 --> 01:19:37,239
is that there was an infrasound weapon, and the other

1390
01:19:37,279 --> 01:19:41,560
one is that the infrasound was created by the kind

1391
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:47,279
of vortex effect of the way the mountain is. Again,

1392
01:19:47,399 --> 01:19:52,239
both are possible. What I would say about the infrasound, say,

1393
01:19:52,239 --> 01:19:56,680
the vortex effect is that not everybody is affected in

1394
01:19:56,720 --> 01:19:59,359
the same way by Some people are not affected by

1395
01:19:59,439 --> 01:20:03,000
it at all. So it implies that all nine of

1396
01:20:03,039 --> 01:20:05,319
them would have had to have been affected. And the

1397
01:20:05,359 --> 01:20:09,199
thing is, if they're really disorientated, they wouldn't be walking

1398
01:20:09,239 --> 01:20:12,000
in a straight line down to the tree to the

1399
01:20:12,039 --> 01:20:15,159
tree line. They'd be wandering all over the place if

1400
01:20:15,159 --> 01:20:19,880
it was having that kind of effect on their mental faculties. Well,

1401
01:20:20,039 --> 01:20:23,039
by the walk down to the tree line almost implies

1402
01:20:23,079 --> 01:20:28,119
a kind of an organized trip down there. And the

1403
01:20:28,159 --> 01:20:32,279
other thing is with infrasound, it doesn't create mechanical damage,

1404
01:20:33,760 --> 01:20:38,600
you know, the kind of injuries that they sustained, the

1405
01:20:38,640 --> 01:20:44,680
broken ribs. Infrasound only effects soft tissue. It doesn't affect

1406
01:20:44,760 --> 01:20:45,479
bones at all.

1407
01:20:46,439 --> 01:20:48,279
Speaker 1: It's also a topic that often talked about in the

1408
01:20:48,279 --> 01:20:50,760
world of the paranormal, the fact that there could be

1409
01:20:50,840 --> 01:20:53,159
some of the causes of people's strange experiences are down

1410
01:20:53,199 --> 01:20:56,479
to infrasound. But it's very much open for debates. Certainly

1411
01:20:56,640 --> 01:20:56,960
it is.

1412
01:20:57,039 --> 01:20:59,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, And the other thing about the weapon element of

1413
01:20:59,840 --> 01:21:04,640
that there was a gentleman called Vladimir Gavrol that a

1414
01:21:04,680 --> 01:21:07,920
lot of he was Russian, but he was living in

1415
01:21:07,960 --> 01:21:11,119
France back in the I think of nineteen thirties, I'm

1416
01:21:11,119 --> 01:21:14,800
not sure, but he'd done a research into in for

1417
01:21:14,880 --> 01:21:18,479
a sound. But the trouble with that is a lot

1418
01:21:18,479 --> 01:21:21,600
of people thought he was he'd done some very good

1419
01:21:21,640 --> 01:21:24,640
research in other areas, but a lot of people thought

1420
01:21:24,640 --> 01:21:27,840
he was coming off the wall with you know, his

1421
01:21:27,920 --> 01:21:30,279
work on infra sound. I've heard that from experts in

1422
01:21:30,319 --> 01:21:32,840
the field, not from people who say he's talking a

1423
01:21:32,840 --> 01:21:37,119
lot of nonsense. And the possibility that there was a

1424
01:21:37,159 --> 01:21:40,560
weapon you can actually weaponize in for a sound, but

1425
01:21:41,000 --> 01:21:45,279
apparently you would need with a state of research into it,

1426
01:21:45,359 --> 01:21:49,159
and this is today, you would need a machine that

1427
01:21:49,359 --> 01:21:54,039
was the size of a forty foot container to use

1428
01:21:54,079 --> 01:21:57,079
an infrasound weapon, which and bear in mind this is

1429
01:21:57,199 --> 01:22:00,359
nineteen fifty nine, So you need to get something size

1430
01:22:00,359 --> 01:22:03,720
of a forty foot container up into the mountains when

1431
01:22:03,720 --> 01:22:08,319
you can barely get yourself through the mud to use

1432
01:22:08,399 --> 01:22:11,159
it up up in the And why would you do that?

1433
01:22:11,199 --> 01:22:14,600
Why not? If you had an infrasound what why not

1434
01:22:14,800 --> 01:22:17,079
use it in a city you know, or at least

1435
01:22:17,119 --> 01:22:21,199
in a facility rather than help into the middle of

1436
01:22:21,239 --> 01:22:23,800
nowhere in the middle of a blizzard. Doesn't make a

1437
01:22:23,840 --> 01:22:24,439
lot of sense.

1438
01:22:25,239 --> 01:22:26,399
Speaker 2: No, that's true.

1439
01:22:26,840 --> 01:22:27,119
Speaker 1: It was.

1440
01:22:27,680 --> 01:22:29,520
Speaker 2: It's just something I read. I thought i'd bring it

1441
01:22:29,560 --> 01:22:30,119
to the table.

1442
01:22:31,920 --> 01:22:34,279
Speaker 4: It's it's quite plausible. I mean. The other thing I'd

1443
01:22:34,319 --> 01:22:37,000
say about infra sound is I camped up on the

1444
01:22:37,039 --> 01:22:42,760
mountain one night that the wind was there, and there's

1445
01:22:42,800 --> 01:22:48,119
been hundreds of people. It's actually a very people pass

1446
01:22:48,199 --> 01:22:53,439
through the Diatlogue Pass regularly going north and south. It's

1447
01:22:53,520 --> 01:22:55,960
part of a route. Now there's loads of people go

1448
01:22:56,039 --> 01:22:58,479
up there, camp up there, and it's to my knowledge

1449
01:22:58,520 --> 01:23:02,439
and to the diatlog foundations on nobody's ever been affected

1450
01:23:02,479 --> 01:23:06,680
by infrasans. It opened in nineteen sixty three, since the

1451
01:23:06,720 --> 01:23:11,359
area reopened it and it's like Piccadilly Circus up there now.

1452
01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:15,239
But you'll be you'd be where we were, where the

1453
01:23:15,279 --> 01:23:19,560
cash was. You come down from the route from where

1454
01:23:19,640 --> 01:23:23,079
the memorial stone is, and there was people passing by

1455
01:23:23,159 --> 01:23:29,239
every day who were hiking. But there's it's a it's

1456
01:23:29,239 --> 01:23:32,159
a route to the northern you know, the polar urals,

1457
01:23:33,119 --> 01:23:36,800
and people go it's it's an established route now. The

1458
01:23:36,840 --> 01:23:41,800
Mansea there as well all the time, and although they're

1459
01:23:41,800 --> 01:23:46,720
not they're not into there. They've become like what's the

1460
01:23:46,760 --> 01:23:51,720
word the modern American Indians Now, I think a lot

1461
01:23:51,720 --> 01:23:53,720
of the old ways of the Mansi are dying out

1462
01:23:53,880 --> 01:23:57,239
with the reindeer. I believe the government there in Russia

1463
01:23:57,399 --> 01:23:58,960
may be wrong on it, but I think they get

1464
01:23:59,199 --> 01:24:02,960
the state's sub today to make them stay in the

1465
01:24:03,039 --> 01:24:05,439
area so at least and stay as populated as they

1466
01:24:05,479 --> 01:24:09,039
do with other ethnic groups in Russia, because it's a

1467
01:24:09,359 --> 01:24:12,319
it's a very underpopulated area the whole of so if

1468
01:24:12,359 --> 01:24:17,680
you go north across Siberia, there's massive area, bigger than Africa,

1469
01:24:17,720 --> 01:24:19,960
and it's hardly anybody living there.

1470
01:24:21,279 --> 01:24:22,920
Speaker 1: It is one of those things you can find someone

1471
01:24:23,520 --> 01:24:25,239
doing the research in this couple of years when I

1472
01:24:25,319 --> 01:24:27,760
first uncovered it, sort of shit at home night and

1473
01:24:27,800 --> 01:24:29,920
cozy and comfortable, just trying to imagine what it must

1474
01:24:29,920 --> 01:24:31,840
be like to be out and those sort of areas

1475
01:24:31,840 --> 01:24:33,479
in the middle of winter. I mean, you said to yourself,

1476
01:24:33,760 --> 01:24:36,359
even in August, it's pretty unpleasant. But to be there

1477
01:24:36,359 --> 01:24:38,680
in the middle of say February, in that deep snow,

1478
01:24:39,399 --> 01:24:42,279
that's not my idea of holidays the best of times.

1479
01:24:42,520 --> 01:24:46,239
Speaker 4: No, But having said that, they trained for it. I'm

1480
01:24:46,279 --> 01:24:49,199
not a young man anymore. But they were early twenties,

1481
01:24:50,479 --> 01:24:54,279
extremely fit, and they had all the gear for it,

1482
01:24:54,439 --> 01:24:56,159
so and they enjoyed it.

1483
01:24:56,840 --> 01:24:57,159
Speaker 1: The thing.

1484
01:24:57,359 --> 01:24:59,560
Speaker 4: The thing is in the Soviet Union in those days,

1485
01:24:59,720 --> 01:25:04,680
in the West, people had rock and roll and there

1486
01:25:04,720 --> 01:25:07,159
was a lot more money in say the USA. I'm

1487
01:25:07,199 --> 01:25:09,399
not saying it was quite the same in Britain, but

1488
01:25:10,119 --> 01:25:13,319
teenagers had things to do. But in the Soviet Union

1489
01:25:13,439 --> 01:25:17,039
those days are still recovering from the war and there

1490
01:25:17,119 --> 01:25:20,680
wasn't a lot of money about and youngsters. I'm not

1491
01:25:20,680 --> 01:25:24,520
saying that young youngsters in their early twenties, but they

1492
01:25:24,560 --> 01:25:26,359
needed to let their hair down and that was a

1493
01:25:26,359 --> 01:25:30,159
way of doing it because the society there was riddled

1494
01:25:30,199 --> 01:25:34,119
with KGB informers. So there was a chance to get

1495
01:25:34,159 --> 01:25:36,720
away out of the city and go out into the

1496
01:25:36,760 --> 01:25:40,079
wild and just be yourself for a couple of weeks.

1497
01:25:41,399 --> 01:25:46,880
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Ian, just doing my research into this, it was

1498
01:25:47,039 --> 01:25:49,239
very much a closed society and you did feel very

1499
01:25:49,319 --> 01:25:51,520
much that you could be what whatever you were doing.

1500
01:25:51,600 --> 01:25:53,479
It to be careful and I know one of the

1501
01:25:53,479 --> 01:25:55,640
theories that does bounce around is but one the chapters

1502
01:25:55,640 --> 01:25:58,319
whose name was so I just escaped my screen, who

1503
01:25:58,479 --> 01:26:00,159
was considered to be older. The rest of good was

1504
01:26:00,199 --> 01:26:02,079
all a tie off. He was thirty eight, and he

1505
01:26:02,119 --> 01:26:04,720
said to myself he had military experienced forty in the

1506
01:26:04,880 --> 01:26:07,239
stylingrat that it seemed a little odd that someone was

1507
01:26:07,279 --> 01:26:09,239
so much older than the rest of the group should

1508
01:26:09,279 --> 01:26:12,520
be involved. But I mean, again, from what I understand,

1509
01:26:12,560 --> 01:26:15,000
he was part of his training. He was trying to

1510
01:26:15,039 --> 01:26:16,760
become an expert ski guy.

1511
01:26:16,760 --> 01:26:19,079
Speaker 4: And I think it was yeah, he was, he was,

1512
01:26:19,279 --> 01:26:24,520
and he was he'd been working in the Altai Mountains,

1513
01:26:24,520 --> 01:26:28,319
which is another very popular area for ski tourism, and

1514
01:26:28,600 --> 01:26:31,159
to him it was it was just a way of

1515
01:26:31,239 --> 01:26:34,800
keeping his hand in that. There is talk that he

1516
01:26:35,479 --> 01:26:37,960
had a bit of a soft spot for Zena. She

1517
01:26:38,159 --> 01:26:40,159
was a very attractive She was one of the two

1518
01:26:40,239 --> 01:26:45,239
females in the group, very very attractive. So, but the

1519
01:26:45,279 --> 01:26:47,680
thing is he was actually old enough to be the

1520
01:26:47,840 --> 01:26:50,560
father of everybody in the group. When you think it

1521
01:26:51,079 --> 01:26:53,159
was actually his birthday. The night he died, he would

1522
01:26:53,199 --> 01:26:57,760
have been thirty nine, but he was. He didn't really

1523
01:26:57,800 --> 01:27:01,560
seem to fit despite that, what you rejudin said about

1524
01:27:01,640 --> 01:27:03,359
him was that once they got to know him, he

1525
01:27:03,520 --> 01:27:07,600
was he fitted in, He sang songs with him, and

1526
01:27:07,760 --> 01:27:11,000
they considered him one of the lads. But it's a

1527
01:27:11,079 --> 01:27:13,680
bit of a nod. There's a theory that he was

1528
01:27:13,720 --> 01:27:17,479
a KGB agent and that they were meeting there. They

1529
01:27:17,479 --> 01:27:22,680
were meeting foreign agents in the Northern Urals to handover

1530
01:27:23,399 --> 01:27:26,399
radioactive materials because a couple of them had been working

1531
01:27:27,720 --> 01:27:33,439
or were involved with nuclear secret nuclear establishments, and that

1532
01:27:33,479 --> 01:27:36,479
they were going to hand over some radioactive material. The

1533
01:27:36,560 --> 01:27:39,840
KGB was in charge of the whole operation. But I

1534
01:27:39,960 --> 01:27:43,239
always say to that theory, well, why why would you

1535
01:27:44,119 --> 01:27:47,880
trek into the middle of the mountains and meet some

1536
01:27:47,960 --> 01:27:50,520
secret agents when you could hand it to the monastery

1537
01:27:50,640 --> 01:27:55,039
corner or you know, or a dead letter drawing. There'd

1538
01:27:55,039 --> 01:27:57,319
be a lot of easier ways of doing it. Apart

1539
01:27:57,359 --> 01:28:00,880
from anything else. If the KGB was everything, if they

1540
01:28:00,880 --> 01:28:04,000
thought there was something going on that you'd find any

1541
01:28:04,560 --> 01:28:06,880
secret agents who met them up they just looked for

1542
01:28:06,920 --> 01:28:10,560
their tracks. But I can I just can't imagine it, really,

1543
01:28:10,600 --> 01:28:12,079
But it's it's a theory.

1544
01:28:12,600 --> 01:28:14,520
Speaker 1: Did the old standard sit in the park so won't

1545
01:28:14,520 --> 01:28:17,039
hand over the briefcase that looks like a briefcase.

1546
01:28:17,880 --> 01:28:21,119
Speaker 4: What's the point. It just doesn't make sense to me

1547
01:28:21,279 --> 01:28:24,920
because you would need two groups to meet up in

1548
01:28:25,560 --> 01:28:28,359
I'm not saying it's the middle of nowhere, but it's

1549
01:28:29,000 --> 01:28:31,760
there's blizzards, and it's not like you say, I'll see

1550
01:28:31,960 --> 01:28:35,880
that tree over there that's ten ten trees down from

1551
01:28:35,920 --> 01:28:38,800
the other one. I mean you could, you could say

1552
01:28:38,800 --> 01:28:41,239
you could meet up there, but it just doesn't make

1553
01:28:41,279 --> 01:28:44,199
a lot of sense. It really doesn't. It's and also

1554
01:28:44,279 --> 01:28:50,600
part of that theory works only if you consider that well,

1555
01:28:50,640 --> 01:28:54,600
one member of it, if you like, was in on it.

1556
01:28:54,920 --> 01:28:57,439
The rest of them weren't in on it. So how

1557
01:28:57,560 --> 01:29:00,439
was he going to explain to everybody else? He's into

1558
01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:03,039
three blokes in the middle of nowhere and he's given

1559
01:29:03,079 --> 01:29:07,439
them something. I mean, I haven't really gone into that

1560
01:29:07,520 --> 01:29:10,680
theory too well because I just don't think it holds water.

1561
01:29:11,159 --> 01:29:14,560
But if something comes along and says I've got a

1562
01:29:14,600 --> 01:29:18,319
document here that proves it, because they'd set it all up,

1563
01:29:18,359 --> 01:29:22,520
and who's to say how things work or don't work.

1564
01:29:22,600 --> 01:29:26,039
But and that's the thing I wanted to mention, there's

1565
01:29:26,199 --> 01:29:30,199
a lot of forgery starting to appear now with regard

1566
01:29:30,239 --> 01:29:32,880
to this story because when I was last over there

1567
01:29:32,920 --> 01:29:39,520
in Russia, I was told that there was a piece

1568
01:29:39,760 --> 01:29:45,640
of canvas that was being touted around that supposedly had

1569
01:29:45,680 --> 01:29:50,159
blood on it that was found in the KGB archives,

1570
01:29:51,079 --> 01:29:54,560
which was from the tent, which had blood of genuine

1571
01:29:54,560 --> 01:29:56,640
blood on it, that they'd been murdered there. And it

1572
01:29:56,720 --> 01:30:00,560
turned out the whole thing's a forgery. And there's other

1573
01:30:00,600 --> 01:30:04,479
documents that have been appearing their forgeries. So there's all

1574
01:30:04,479 --> 01:30:07,319
sorts of disinformation starting to come out about it now

1575
01:30:07,359 --> 01:30:09,640
as well. So you've got to be careful what what

1576
01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:11,279
particular route you go down.

1577
01:30:11,720 --> 01:30:14,760
Speaker 1: Well, I remember writing, think of the tent itself has now disappeared.

1578
01:30:15,279 --> 01:30:18,520
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, that was one of the first things

1579
01:30:18,560 --> 01:30:23,720
I asked about. It disappeared completely. The trouble is, if

1580
01:30:23,760 --> 01:30:26,600
it was a bit of a touchy subject, if you like.

1581
01:30:27,800 --> 01:30:29,760
It was believed to have been kept in the police

1582
01:30:29,800 --> 01:30:34,239
station and put into a cupboard, and nobody knows basically

1583
01:30:34,279 --> 01:30:37,920
what happened to it. It would a souvenir hunter take it,

1584
01:30:38,000 --> 01:30:41,359
you know, nobody knows really it's it could be that

1585
01:30:41,479 --> 01:30:44,239
it was it stayed in a cupboard for ten or

1586
01:30:44,279 --> 01:30:47,600
fifteen years and somebody was cleaning the place something we

1587
01:30:47,640 --> 01:30:51,439
don't need. They're all dead now, and we'll just check

1588
01:30:51,479 --> 01:30:51,800
it out.

1589
01:30:52,000 --> 01:30:55,439
Speaker 1: So a little bit like Andy's brain game missing, isn't it?

1590
01:30:55,720 --> 01:30:57,479
Speaker 4: Well, but nobody knows what happened to it.

1591
01:30:58,119 --> 01:31:00,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like Jeffk's brain vanishing from the archives. It's like,

1592
01:31:01,000 --> 01:31:03,359
this is actually quite important evidence, but now let's just

1593
01:31:03,399 --> 01:31:07,159
discard it. I'm talking about the the more kind of

1594
01:31:07,600 --> 01:31:09,359
there's some more crack pot pharys. Of course, one we

1595
01:31:09,399 --> 01:31:11,399
really have to addresses the idea of the Yetti the

1596
01:31:11,399 --> 01:31:15,119
wonder More Snowman attack in them. I'm going to have

1597
01:31:15,159 --> 01:31:17,000
to ask you, what do you think of that theory?

1598
01:31:17,439 --> 01:31:20,640
Speaker 4: Well, I put everything in a in a kind of probability,

1599
01:31:20,760 --> 01:31:27,359
so I'd put the possibly at the top of that theory.

1600
01:31:27,760 --> 01:31:33,520
You can have the avalanche, the military accident, possible mancy

1601
01:31:33,800 --> 01:31:36,319
killings or whatever. You can put them up near the top.

1602
01:31:36,600 --> 01:31:39,039
I'm afraid I've got to put the YETI theory down

1603
01:31:39,039 --> 01:31:44,000
near the bottom because it's I haven't researched the yety

1604
01:31:44,119 --> 01:31:48,399
too much. But you've got a large homonoid creature that

1605
01:31:48,520 --> 01:31:53,800
resembles a bear. You would expect the you would expect

1606
01:31:53,800 --> 01:31:58,079
it to probably use its teeth or claws, if and

1607
01:31:58,119 --> 01:32:01,239
you would expect those marks to appear on the bodies,

1608
01:32:01,279 --> 01:32:05,640
which there was no kind of animal attacks. It could

1609
01:32:05,720 --> 01:32:11,600
be the crushing injuries came from, you know, for Zalatarev

1610
01:32:11,880 --> 01:32:15,920
and Luda. You know, yet he had crushed, you know,

1611
01:32:16,079 --> 01:32:18,119
held them and crossed them in a kind of a

1612
01:32:18,119 --> 01:32:21,439
bear hug, which is But the thing that argues again

1613
01:32:21,520 --> 01:32:25,600
says there's no tracks. Yeah, and yet it is like

1614
01:32:25,680 --> 01:32:29,880
a large bear, say, or you'd expect to see some

1615
01:32:30,000 --> 01:32:31,359
kind of tracks, wouldn't you.

1616
01:32:31,439 --> 01:32:35,039
Speaker 1: Absolutely. I know we have the single photograph of rather

1617
01:32:35,199 --> 01:32:38,159
blurred image in the background of what has been purported

1618
01:32:38,239 --> 01:32:40,039
to in the yetti. But I know, having looked at

1619
01:32:40,039 --> 01:32:43,039
the photographs myself, the next photograph, the previous photograph on

1620
01:32:43,079 --> 01:32:45,680
the real shows one of the group in cloven that's

1621
01:32:45,680 --> 01:32:47,800
not dissimilar to the figure that you see in the background.

1622
01:32:47,880 --> 01:32:50,079
Suppose of the YETI is that kind of eliminates that

1623
01:32:50,079 --> 01:32:50,920
one for me anyway?

1624
01:32:51,359 --> 01:32:57,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, Well, supposedly the French he was born in

1625
01:32:58,199 --> 01:33:03,439
a gulag Nikolai Bob Brignor. He's supposedly returning from having

1626
01:33:03,479 --> 01:33:07,520
had a Jimmy riddle. Somebody's funny idea of a bit

1627
01:33:07,560 --> 01:33:09,800
of a joke of taking a picture of it. Admit it,

1628
01:33:10,039 --> 01:33:12,399
it does have a it's got a crouching when you

1629
01:33:12,439 --> 01:33:15,479
look at it. It's kind of a kind of sinister

1630
01:33:15,680 --> 01:33:18,239
stance because it's like it's crouching, isn't it. But it

1631
01:33:18,560 --> 01:33:21,079
had just been behind a tree and he was just

1632
01:33:21,199 --> 01:33:24,640
gingerly making his way back. I suppose he would be

1633
01:33:24,720 --> 01:33:26,359
crouching a bit anyway.

1634
01:33:26,399 --> 01:33:30,279
Speaker 1: But taking a temperatures rather risky of the better times.

1635
01:33:30,520 --> 01:33:34,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, yeah, yeah. I mean if somebody comes along

1636
01:33:34,079 --> 01:33:38,039
and who knows that they thought the stealer cant had

1637
01:33:39,119 --> 01:33:41,640
was extinct, and yet they found one in nineteen thirty

1638
01:33:41,680 --> 01:33:47,880
six in a fishing net. But if somebody provides evidence

1639
01:33:47,960 --> 01:33:52,920
of a very large tribe of Yettis in northern Siberia

1640
01:33:52,960 --> 01:33:55,600
that moved around a bit, you know, you never know

1641
01:33:55,680 --> 01:33:59,439
that there might be one. But until somebody produces some evidence,

1642
01:33:59,640 --> 01:34:01,439
this is the trouble. You can come out with all

1643
01:34:01,479 --> 01:34:03,840
sorts of things, but you need to back it up

1644
01:34:03,880 --> 01:34:08,159
with some kind of credible evidence. You've got to explain

1645
01:34:08,239 --> 01:34:11,800
the lack of well, nobody's ever caught yet yet. There's

1646
01:34:11,960 --> 01:34:16,079
there's pictures, there's film you know, there's some film of

1647
01:34:17,159 --> 01:34:21,159
Bigfoot and what have you, but there's no footprint there.

1648
01:34:21,600 --> 01:34:24,560
You know, expect and also I would think a large

1649
01:34:24,600 --> 01:34:27,439
animal that didn't have a lot of reasoning power, that

1650
01:34:27,560 --> 01:34:30,479
was in a rage, i'd expect them to virtually demolish

1651
01:34:30,520 --> 01:34:30,880
the tent.

1652
01:34:31,640 --> 01:34:41,600
Speaker 1: Absolutely to ask you better than this. You don't talk

1653
01:34:41,960 --> 01:34:46,279
all the time. I think I was going to say,

1654
01:34:46,359 --> 01:34:48,520
was obviously a paranormal station. We're not going to discounts

1655
01:34:48,800 --> 01:34:50,520
yet is altogether, but I think we could rule them

1656
01:34:50,520 --> 01:34:51,800
out in this particular case.

1657
01:34:52,600 --> 01:34:56,199
Speaker 4: No, if you're talking paranormal, I would be looking at

1658
01:34:56,199 --> 01:35:03,239
what's happening in the sky. To me, again, with paranormal

1659
01:35:03,600 --> 01:35:08,039
kind of activity, you would have to again produce evidence

1660
01:35:08,039 --> 01:35:10,399
of it. But there's something odd going on in the sky,

1661
01:35:10,680 --> 01:35:16,199
if you take the negatives, has been fairly you know, genuine.

1662
01:35:17,800 --> 01:35:20,239
A lot of it's inexplicable. But if something is going

1663
01:35:20,279 --> 01:35:23,000
on in the sky, there's some kind of which ties

1664
01:35:23,039 --> 01:35:25,800
in with what Yuri Yakimov was saying about the lights.

1665
01:35:27,760 --> 01:35:31,439
There's also and this thing about the snap of electricity.

1666
01:35:31,920 --> 01:35:36,920
There's talk of some kind of energy based weapon, which

1667
01:35:36,920 --> 01:35:40,720
is a possibility because Ivanov, when you read his interview.

1668
01:35:42,079 --> 01:35:44,960
He didn't do it. He did an article with a

1669
01:35:45,039 --> 01:35:49,439
journalist in nineteen ninety which is in my book, and

1670
01:35:49,640 --> 01:35:51,920
it's almost like he was reaching the end of his

1671
01:35:52,000 --> 01:35:53,800
life and he wanted a kind of a tone for

1672
01:35:53,880 --> 01:35:58,600
the whole thing. But he talks about unidentified flying objects.

1673
01:35:58,439 --> 01:36:02,039
He's saying it's not to say that it's a you

1674
01:36:02,039 --> 01:36:05,760
you know of alien, but there's something going on. He

1675
01:36:05,840 --> 01:36:08,880
says it himself. They found a kind of a burn

1676
01:36:08,960 --> 01:36:13,920
mark on a tree trunk which was perfectly symmetrical, a

1677
01:36:13,920 --> 01:36:18,439
circle which had been created by a burn. And that's

1678
01:36:18,520 --> 01:36:22,079
what he sort of talks about, that it could be

1679
01:36:22,159 --> 01:36:25,159
something that was in the sky, may not even have

1680
01:36:25,600 --> 01:36:30,359
come from it may have been he doesn't say, a

1681
01:36:30,399 --> 01:36:33,720
military thing, but there's something going on which is kind

1682
01:36:33,760 --> 01:36:38,520
of technology based. Yeah, I would go along with that.

1683
01:36:40,039 --> 01:36:45,039
It's inexplicable, but there is seems to be some kind

1684
01:36:45,079 --> 01:36:49,199
of evidence that's leading towards it. But it can be explained.

1685
01:36:49,880 --> 01:36:52,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's absolutely my own personal thinking of that stuff.

1686
01:36:52,319 --> 01:36:54,760
I've read that it's something in the sky light normally

1687
01:36:54,800 --> 01:36:58,800
of some kind, whether it's a military experiment or I'm

1688
01:36:58,840 --> 01:37:01,479
not a big fan of other worlds spacecraft, but possibly

1689
01:37:01,560 --> 01:37:04,079
sort of testing craft that was experimental and when it

1690
01:37:04,159 --> 01:37:06,520
hushed that up because it went wrong, that kind of thing.

1691
01:37:06,560 --> 01:37:09,039
Something seems for me to fit much of this, but

1692
01:37:09,079 --> 01:37:12,279
again we have the anomalies of what actually happens to them. Certainly,

1693
01:37:12,359 --> 01:37:19,600
but be very quiet and that my good friend Kerry.

1694
01:37:17,079 --> 01:37:22,319
Speaker 3: Thank you, Andy, No, seriously, I want to look at

1695
01:37:22,960 --> 01:37:25,680
There was something that really interested me on your website,

1696
01:37:25,720 --> 01:37:29,640
which was to do with the computer simulation that somebody

1697
01:37:29,680 --> 01:37:32,520
had done that came up with some very interesting results.

1698
01:37:32,800 --> 01:37:36,399
Now this is based around the methanal theory, isn't it.

1699
01:37:37,079 --> 01:37:40,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, he said a little bit about that.

1700
01:37:40,399 --> 01:37:44,359
Speaker 4: Well, it's what it was, Ben Firth. What is. What

1701
01:37:44,439 --> 01:37:48,119
he was saying was that he'd run computer simulations on

1702
01:37:48,800 --> 01:37:52,000
all the theories and that kept coming up with ninety

1703
01:37:52,039 --> 01:37:57,159
seven percent probability. And that's to me, that's pretty good.

1704
01:37:58,359 --> 01:38:05,159
I work in computer security, but to me, that's applause.

1705
01:38:05,640 --> 01:38:09,000
If something comes up ninety hit, you've got to take

1706
01:38:09,199 --> 01:38:14,520
some attention to it. But the mental he's saying that

1707
01:38:14,520 --> 01:38:18,119
that menthanol was introduced into the food source that they

1708
01:38:18,119 --> 01:38:24,760
were eating, and that that is what had affected them,

1709
01:38:25,319 --> 01:38:28,439
that whoever had done it as possibly as a bit

1710
01:38:28,479 --> 01:38:33,720
of a joke. They realized that somebody had done it,

1711
01:38:33,800 --> 01:38:39,319
they attacked whoever had had, if you like, put it

1712
01:38:39,359 --> 01:38:43,439
into their food, but it was affecting them quite badly,

1713
01:38:44,520 --> 01:38:48,119
would drive well, virtually driving them wild. I mean, the

1714
01:38:48,119 --> 01:38:51,800
theory is on my website, but it implies that one

1715
01:38:51,920 --> 01:38:54,520
member of the group, though, is doing something to the others.

1716
01:38:55,119 --> 01:38:59,960
But as I say, it's you know, if it comes

1717
01:39:00,159 --> 01:39:03,159
up with ninety possibility, then I think you've got to

1718
01:39:03,159 --> 01:39:06,399
look at it. Because one of there's a number of

1719
01:39:06,439 --> 01:39:10,479
theories there that they were possibly eating mushrooms, that they'd

1720
01:39:10,520 --> 01:39:16,640
had fly Algaric. I think it was, you know, but

1721
01:39:17,640 --> 01:39:22,000
things that would would affect their mental faculties, and that

1722
01:39:22,039 --> 01:39:27,720
would account for the weird, the weird, bizarre behavior of

1723
01:39:28,039 --> 01:39:30,800
slashing their way out, you know, whether it's ment and

1724
01:39:30,880 --> 01:39:37,199
all there was making them go wild, if you like,

1725
01:39:37,439 --> 01:39:41,800
but it also blinds you, I mean, mental poison. It's poisoning.

1726
01:39:42,239 --> 01:39:45,960
It's it's a toxic substance. So whether you go with

1727
01:39:46,159 --> 01:39:51,840
menthan All or any other you know, the fly Algaric

1728
01:39:52,239 --> 01:39:55,720
or whatever, you know, magic mushrooms, call it what you will,

1729
01:39:55,760 --> 01:40:00,760
that they possibly been experimenting with it, that that would

1730
01:40:00,880 --> 01:40:05,000
account for the weird, bizarre behavior. And what Ben was

1731
01:40:05,039 --> 01:40:08,960
saying about the menthol all was that they realized that

1732
01:40:09,399 --> 01:40:12,399
it had been done to them, and that's why they

1733
01:40:12,479 --> 01:40:16,760
had attacked the person who had done it. What he's

1734
01:40:16,800 --> 01:40:20,279
saying is that he tried to climb the cedar tree

1735
01:40:20,560 --> 01:40:24,000
to get away from them, but that then they started

1736
01:40:24,000 --> 01:40:28,720
climbing up after him. But it's and he's he's saying,

1737
01:40:28,800 --> 01:40:31,319
I thought it was just alcohol and it be harmless.

1738
01:40:31,800 --> 01:40:35,600
That the water and fuel got mixed up. So if

1739
01:40:35,600 --> 01:40:41,319
you like a prank that went wrong, indeed.

1740
01:40:41,680 --> 01:40:44,920
Speaker 3: But it doesn't explain the light anomalies in the sky

1741
01:40:45,720 --> 01:40:48,920
or some of them more weird injuries that some of

1742
01:40:48,960 --> 01:40:50,359
them then got.

1743
01:40:51,119 --> 01:40:54,079
Speaker 4: Well what What what Ben was saying is that you know,

1744
01:40:54,159 --> 01:40:57,560
again the fall down the ravine, heavy snow on top

1745
01:40:57,600 --> 01:41:03,319
of them causes the rib compress and fractures. I don't don't.

1746
01:41:03,319 --> 01:41:08,000
I don't necessarily know that's true, because I suppose there's

1747
01:41:08,039 --> 01:41:10,399
possible slow building up on top of the course of

1748
01:41:10,439 --> 01:41:13,840
the fractures. But I can't imagine the snow would flatten

1749
01:41:13,920 --> 01:41:15,960
your nose into your into your head.

1750
01:41:16,720 --> 01:41:19,720
Speaker 1: And that does leave us the same problem, doesn't it

1751
01:41:19,760 --> 01:41:23,479
When we're talking about even the military involvement, that things

1752
01:41:23,520 --> 01:41:26,439
in the sky being military craft or testing weaponry. It's

1753
01:41:26,479 --> 01:41:29,840
getting down to what physically happened to them. That's the bit.

1754
01:41:29,880 --> 01:41:32,239
There's always the troubling bit, isn't it if you're talking

1755
01:41:32,239 --> 01:41:34,640
about the idea that being the military operations. Been saying

1756
01:41:34,680 --> 01:41:36,920
before that you have to have evidence of these people

1757
01:41:36,960 --> 01:41:39,319
being nearby to of course the physical injuries. If they

1758
01:41:39,359 --> 01:41:42,680
were caught in the area and were threatened with suffering,

1759
01:41:42,720 --> 01:41:45,640
if he kept it, didn't keep quiet, and they decide, well, no,

1760
01:41:45,680 --> 01:41:46,960
it's no good, they're not going to keep coming. You

1761
01:41:47,039 --> 01:41:49,359
have to kill them. There's no evidences. That's that's the

1762
01:41:49,399 --> 01:41:50,880
really trouble, isn't it.

1763
01:41:50,920 --> 01:41:53,079
Speaker 4: But what I would say about that, though, is there's

1764
01:41:53,079 --> 01:41:56,359
no evidence up by the tent. And don't forget the

1765
01:41:56,359 --> 01:42:00,319
footsteps that they saw only they started depending on there's

1766
01:42:00,880 --> 01:42:06,000
several variations on where the footsteps started. They didn't start

1767
01:42:06,279 --> 01:42:09,640
right at the tent. Some people say it's four hundred meters,

1768
01:42:09,640 --> 01:42:12,960
some people say eighty meters, some people say twenty from

1769
01:42:13,000 --> 01:42:17,600
the rescuers. The footprints started some distance away and okay,

1770
01:42:17,600 --> 01:42:21,079
it's only their footprints, but they petered out before they

1771
01:42:21,119 --> 01:42:25,279
got to the tree line. When you get down to

1772
01:42:25,319 --> 01:42:29,640
the tree line, I mean talking about the day they

1773
01:42:29,760 --> 01:42:33,000
found the tent, there was no footprints at all, so

1774
01:42:33,239 --> 01:42:35,880
they didn't know what had happened. They didn't know where

1775
01:42:35,880 --> 01:42:37,640
they were. The bodies were all there, but of course

1776
01:42:37,640 --> 01:42:40,479
they couldn't see them, and there was no footprints. There

1777
01:42:40,520 --> 01:42:43,479
was no footprints at all around where any of the

1778
01:42:43,479 --> 01:42:46,680
bodies were found, so something could have happened there.

1779
01:42:47,680 --> 01:42:49,920
Speaker 1: So is it the thing the snow itself to me

1780
01:42:49,960 --> 01:42:50,920
cover them over or.

1781
01:42:50,920 --> 01:42:53,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, well there was no found To put it that way,

1782
01:42:53,960 --> 01:42:57,119
Nobody said we've found footprints here. But what they did

1783
01:42:57,239 --> 01:42:59,960
was find the bodies, but there was no footprints around them,

1784
01:43:00,520 --> 01:43:03,800
or the possibly may have been the footprints of the group,

1785
01:43:03,800 --> 01:43:07,760
but nobody mentions any footprints. It's like the snow covered everything.

1786
01:43:08,520 --> 01:43:11,640
And of course what happened was, even if there had

1787
01:43:11,680 --> 01:43:14,520
been any footprints there, by the time the rescue parties

1788
01:43:14,520 --> 01:43:17,960
got there started digging up the bodies, any other footprints

1789
01:43:18,000 --> 01:43:20,880
are going to be obliterated. There was I mean, there

1790
01:43:20,960 --> 01:43:23,239
was five search parties that had to bring a large

1791
01:43:23,319 --> 01:43:26,239
tent in to accommodate everybody. So you got these people

1792
01:43:26,319 --> 01:43:29,720
traps in over the whole area. And what this Russian

1793
01:43:29,800 --> 01:43:32,560
journalist was saying, the one who first started pulling the

1794
01:43:33,239 --> 01:43:36,840
case apart, was his view was when they talk about

1795
01:43:36,880 --> 01:43:39,880
the nine eight or nine pairs of footprints going down,

1796
01:43:40,159 --> 01:43:44,000
he says he doesn't believe it because he said, once

1797
01:43:44,039 --> 01:43:48,920
they found the tent, people were coming in from all directions.

1798
01:43:49,840 --> 01:43:52,000
A message had gone back saying we found the tent,

1799
01:43:52,119 --> 01:43:56,039
so everybody gravitates towards it, and they're tramping all over

1800
01:43:56,079 --> 01:43:58,600
the place, And he thinks that they would have been

1801
01:43:58,600 --> 01:44:01,680
following the footprints and just walking all over them, because,

1802
01:44:01,720 --> 01:44:04,399
as I say, they didn't think it was like a

1803
01:44:04,479 --> 01:44:07,760
murder scene or the crime scene. They just think we

1804
01:44:07,840 --> 01:44:10,720
found them, and we'll follow the footprints and they'll be

1805
01:44:10,840 --> 01:44:13,800
around on the bottom somewhere, or if they couldn't find it,

1806
01:44:13,880 --> 01:44:17,840
that they'll be nearby. All we've got to do is

1807
01:44:17,880 --> 01:44:22,840
find them. So yeah, there's no no real reason for

1808
01:44:22,880 --> 01:44:26,520
them not to cover up everything. You know, they think, well,

1809
01:44:26,600 --> 01:44:30,760
we've we've really got them, so there's no need to

1810
01:44:30,800 --> 01:44:32,479
protect any footprints or anything.

1811
01:44:33,119 --> 01:44:35,119
Speaker 1: Well, the thought that kind of just crossed my mind

1812
01:44:35,199 --> 01:44:37,319
quite literally as you were talking about it, is that

1813
01:44:37,600 --> 01:44:41,359
maybe there was a military activity close by that that

1814
01:44:41,479 --> 01:44:46,960
didn't actually involve these guys that themselves directly, but because

1815
01:44:47,000 --> 01:44:48,800
it was sensitive area, they just wanted to keep the

1816
01:44:48,800 --> 01:44:50,880
whole thing quiet. They're, Okay, something stranger has happened to

1817
01:44:50,880 --> 01:44:52,640
these guys, but we're not worry about that, because it's

1818
01:44:52,640 --> 01:44:55,760
important that this area has kept people kept clear of it.

1819
01:44:55,760 --> 01:44:57,439
It could be that they're almost like covering it up,

1820
01:44:57,560 --> 01:44:59,199
not because they knew that was the real reason why

1821
01:44:59,239 --> 01:45:01,760
that happened, but because it was just open too many questions.

1822
01:45:01,760 --> 01:45:03,920
I didn't want to be asked, I didn't want answers

1823
01:45:03,920 --> 01:45:06,720
for so they just kind of mudded it all that

1824
01:45:06,840 --> 01:45:07,920
and they said, no, shut it all down.

1825
01:45:07,960 --> 01:45:12,560
Speaker 4: Now, well that's actually quite plausible. Yeah, I would go

1826
01:45:12,640 --> 01:45:16,439
along with that, and it would also explain Europical arriving

1827
01:45:16,479 --> 01:45:21,359
from Moscow and saying close it down, and who knows.

1828
01:45:22,479 --> 01:45:26,880
They'd say, well, fiddle around with the autopsies a bit

1829
01:45:27,039 --> 01:45:30,159
and make it look muddy the water if you like,

1830
01:45:30,960 --> 01:45:33,439
but shut it down. We don't want any more. And

1831
01:45:33,760 --> 01:45:36,239
I've got a feeling you could be onto something with that,

1832
01:45:36,279 --> 01:45:39,520
you know, because the may well have been something going

1833
01:45:39,600 --> 01:45:43,119
on and it didn't necessarily directly affect them, but they

1834
01:45:43,119 --> 01:45:47,079
could see that something that may have harmed them was nearby,

1835
01:45:47,119 --> 01:45:49,000
and oh god, we've got to get away from here.

1836
01:45:49,640 --> 01:45:52,239
But it didn't directly affect them in that sense, and

1837
01:45:52,279 --> 01:45:56,159
they died of the cold or whatever. And the military thought,

1838
01:45:56,199 --> 01:45:58,800
oh god, you know, because of what we've been doing here,

1839
01:45:58,840 --> 01:46:01,760
they've all died. But you're not going to make that public.

1840
01:46:03,079 --> 01:46:06,600
Speaker 1: Well, I mean my next book, I think, yeah.

1841
01:46:06,039 --> 01:46:08,640
Speaker 3: Well enough to write.

1842
01:46:09,039 --> 01:46:14,000
Speaker 1: I'll just give my whole plot away, haven't, I'll tell you.

1843
01:46:14,000 --> 01:46:17,840
Speaker 4: And that's actually worth looking into. That's to me, that's

1844
01:46:17,960 --> 01:46:23,279
quite plausible. Definitely, yeah, yeah, no, it's very plausible. But

1845
01:46:23,600 --> 01:46:26,920
like I say, I don't know we'll ever get to

1846
01:46:26,920 --> 01:46:29,800
the bottom of it. The people are starting to die

1847
01:46:29,840 --> 01:46:33,600
off now. But I believe that there's something in the

1848
01:46:33,720 --> 01:46:37,840
FSB archives. I'll be surprised if there wasn't. But you know,

1849
01:46:37,960 --> 01:46:42,359
the what was the KGB. I find it impossible to

1850
01:46:42,439 --> 01:46:45,399
believe that they wouldn't have been involved, considering two of

1851
01:46:45,439 --> 01:46:52,319
the group were working with secret nuclear facilities, just even

1852
01:46:52,359 --> 01:46:55,159
the security element of it, that they have been involved.

1853
01:46:55,680 --> 01:46:58,239
But they say they were never involved. But that's a

1854
01:46:58,279 --> 01:46:59,199
stock response.

1855
01:47:00,079 --> 01:47:02,800
Speaker 1: Have you ever spoken to Slelanos about the case she's

1856
01:47:03,279 --> 01:47:03,720
a Russian.

1857
01:47:04,640 --> 01:47:09,039
Speaker 4: Well, the trouble is that she's almost competition if you like,

1858
01:47:09,119 --> 01:47:13,239
not that anybody. She's got her theory, I've got Donnie

1859
01:47:13,239 --> 01:47:19,119
Aiker has got his theory. I mean, her theory is

1860
01:47:19,239 --> 01:47:25,000
actually again pretty plausible. I mean she's she's investigated it,

1861
01:47:25,039 --> 01:47:28,279
but I don't know that I agree with it. But

1862
01:47:28,279 --> 01:47:32,720
but again it's plausible. But what it needs is somebody

1863
01:47:32,760 --> 01:47:35,880
to find I don't know, if you like a bit

1864
01:47:35,920 --> 01:47:38,680
of evidence just to take it, but it needs something

1865
01:47:38,760 --> 01:47:41,039
to come out of the woodwork, and just so you

1866
01:47:41,079 --> 01:47:43,560
can start saying, right, well, it is this and we're

1867
01:47:43,600 --> 01:47:46,159
going this is the direction it should go in. But

1868
01:47:46,680 --> 01:47:49,640
until that day comes, I mean, there might be something

1869
01:47:49,720 --> 01:47:56,079
that's military archives are held south of south of Moscow,

1870
01:47:56,239 --> 01:48:02,239
but getting in there, I think, but getting in to

1871
01:48:02,279 --> 01:48:05,199
look at them, i'd say that I'd say one of

1872
01:48:05,199 --> 01:48:08,079
the nearest chances this might have been solved was when

1873
01:48:08,159 --> 01:48:13,279
Yelsin was in power. He had been at the same

1874
01:48:13,439 --> 01:48:16,399
university at them, and he thought what they were, you know,

1875
01:48:16,520 --> 01:48:21,880
ski tourism was great, and Elsin tried to be open

1876
01:48:21,960 --> 01:48:26,439
about the biological warfare accident they had in that city

1877
01:48:26,760 --> 01:48:32,119
as well. Yeah, Yeah, he was all for pensions being

1878
01:48:32,159 --> 01:48:34,159
paid to people who had been affected and all the rest.

1879
01:48:34,199 --> 01:48:38,319
He didn't try to hide it. But Yelson was long gone, sadly,

1880
01:48:38,399 --> 01:48:40,760
but when he was in powered there might have been

1881
01:48:40,760 --> 01:48:42,920
a chance to get to the bottom of it. But

1882
01:48:42,960 --> 01:48:45,760
the way the way things are now in Russia, it's gone.

1883
01:48:46,600 --> 01:48:50,439
Everybody says that's heading back to the old days. Unfortunately,

1884
01:48:50,520 --> 01:48:54,159
as far as the truth or security goes.

1885
01:48:54,399 --> 01:48:56,840
Speaker 1: Sadly, I was sitting in the last few months of

1886
01:48:56,880 --> 01:48:59,079
specially with America, it does almost feel like we were

1887
01:48:59,079 --> 01:49:02,039
looking at a Russia going into isolation to turn it

1888
01:49:03,560 --> 01:49:03,960
out of it.

1889
01:49:04,039 --> 01:49:10,319
Speaker 4: Really, it's quite sad because I actually like the Russians.

1890
01:49:10,520 --> 01:49:12,439
Met everybody in Russian and I'm not there's plenty of

1891
01:49:12,439 --> 01:49:16,399
anastic people there, but I met nothing. But I met

1892
01:49:16,399 --> 01:49:19,680
one or two rude people. But I find them very basic,

1893
01:49:19,840 --> 01:49:22,000
down to earth people and if you need help, they'll

1894
01:49:22,000 --> 01:49:24,159
give it to you. I mean, there was two guys

1895
01:49:24,479 --> 01:49:26,920
who took me off the mountain after wreck my knee.

1896
01:49:27,520 --> 01:49:29,720
They got short their tripped by a week to get

1897
01:49:29,720 --> 01:49:34,359
me back to Katharinburg set seven nearly seventeen hour drive.

1898
01:49:34,800 --> 01:49:35,600
They wouldn't take.

1899
01:49:35,439 --> 01:49:37,520
Speaker 1: A penny off me, that's amazing.

1900
01:49:37,760 --> 01:49:42,079
Speaker 4: I mean, somebody here driving you from there to London,

1901
01:49:42,119 --> 01:49:45,600
you know, on a motorway. Let all the crap we

1902
01:49:45,680 --> 01:49:49,359
went through there, and they just wouldn't take anything off me.

1903
01:49:49,399 --> 01:49:51,079
They it's just on paying for a meal on the

1904
01:49:51,079 --> 01:49:57,000
way back. And I find them very decent, straightforward people.

1905
01:49:57,479 --> 01:49:59,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what you said before, it's sounding that would

1906
01:49:59,199 --> 01:50:01,279
be toward you now had to be for those guys.

1907
01:50:01,880 --> 01:50:06,199
Speaker 4: Well, I was actually frightened, genuinely from because I thought,

1908
01:50:06,279 --> 01:50:08,960
I can't expect anybody to carry me. It's thirty miles

1909
01:50:09,000 --> 01:50:13,520
to Ushma, which is the Mansei village where the vehicle was.

1910
01:50:13,920 --> 01:50:17,000
I mean, I wouldn't have been left forever there because

1911
01:50:17,359 --> 01:50:20,000
I think they would have got some help up to me.

1912
01:50:20,119 --> 01:50:22,399
But I was going to be on my own for

1913
01:50:22,439 --> 01:50:24,279
a while there. And it's not doubt about it, but

1914
01:50:24,960 --> 01:50:28,840
and it's it's dangerous and there's bears there and all

1915
01:50:28,880 --> 01:50:32,399
the rest of it. But there seems to be an

1916
01:50:32,479 --> 01:50:35,039
unwritten code in the mountain. So if you need help,

1917
01:50:35,479 --> 01:50:36,800
you get it, no matter what.

1918
01:50:37,520 --> 01:50:39,840
Speaker 1: What actually happened to you. I didn't quite catch the

1919
01:50:39,960 --> 01:50:40,479
exact eve.

1920
01:50:41,760 --> 01:50:43,359
Speaker 4: The thing is, I used to do a lot of

1921
01:50:43,399 --> 01:50:46,279
powerlifting when I was younger, and Moneys are basically wrecked

1922
01:50:46,279 --> 01:50:50,479
from it, you know, heavy squatting, and I mean I

1923
01:50:50,520 --> 01:50:54,319
stopped it years ago, but I've kept itself reasonably fit.

1924
01:50:54,760 --> 01:50:57,119
But Moneys are in great shape. But the backpacks we

1925
01:50:57,239 --> 01:51:02,600
had weighed I think well, so on saying metric, it's

1926
01:51:02,800 --> 01:51:08,319
fifty five pounds, which is quite heavy. And the trouble

1927
01:51:08,439 --> 01:51:12,600
is it's the mud there is absolutely terrible. So after

1928
01:51:12,640 --> 01:51:16,399
we dropped off the truck, we had the best part

1929
01:51:16,399 --> 01:51:19,319
of twenty five or thirty miles to track and the

1930
01:51:19,359 --> 01:51:23,039
pace that they set up was so you imagine doing

1931
01:51:23,479 --> 01:51:26,640
it's like doing a cross country run in full kit

1932
01:51:26,800 --> 01:51:30,560
if you like, fifty five pounds. And I was doing

1933
01:51:30,560 --> 01:51:34,079
all right, but what happened was the mud was so

1934
01:51:34,239 --> 01:51:37,199
bad on the trail that I was using a ski

1935
01:51:37,319 --> 01:51:41,199
pole to I'd hold on to vegetation with my left hand,

1936
01:51:41,640 --> 01:51:43,920
walk around the edge of the mud, use the ski

1937
01:51:44,000 --> 01:51:48,880
pole over on the right and get myself across the mud.

1938
01:51:49,039 --> 01:51:51,439
Because if you went into the mud, it would go

1939
01:51:51,520 --> 01:51:54,159
up to your middle year fight. We were all wearing boots,

1940
01:51:54,520 --> 01:51:57,000
I mean my mud. My boots were full of mud,

1941
01:51:57,479 --> 01:52:00,399
and the socks were soaked in mud, and you know,

1942
01:52:00,439 --> 01:52:03,720
but you just you just didn't okay, you just carried on.

1943
01:52:04,279 --> 01:52:06,840
But what happened went here there was a large pool

1944
01:52:06,880 --> 01:52:09,439
of mud that I thought was probably only about an

1945
01:52:09,439 --> 01:52:12,159
inch or too deep, and it was anything but and

1946
01:52:12,199 --> 01:52:15,600
the effect of me got so fast swung me. My

1947
01:52:15,720 --> 01:52:19,880
leg was trapped, if you like, my whole twisted around

1948
01:52:19,920 --> 01:52:22,479
at forty five degrees with the weight of my backpack

1949
01:52:22,520 --> 01:52:26,920
and went But I mean, I was still able to continue,

1950
01:52:27,520 --> 01:52:30,880
but it wasn't a good omen, shall we say? So? Anyway,

1951
01:52:30,880 --> 01:52:33,960
we pitched the tent where the cash, you know, where

1952
01:52:33,960 --> 01:52:36,239
the group had left the cash, and went up and

1953
01:52:36,279 --> 01:52:39,199
down the mountain a few times, and we'd set up

1954
01:52:40,239 --> 01:52:43,239
a kind of a campfire with logs around. It was

1955
01:52:43,239 --> 01:52:46,560
pretty good, and I've just eaten and I stood up

1956
01:52:46,600 --> 01:52:48,640
and it felt like suddenly got a red hot poker

1957
01:52:48,680 --> 01:52:50,760
and rammed it right into the middle of my knee,

1958
01:52:52,279 --> 01:52:55,159
pain like it, and I sat back down. I thought, well,

1959
01:52:55,199 --> 01:52:58,079
maybe I've just stood up a funny way. But I

1960
01:52:58,159 --> 01:53:01,239
literally could not put any weight on it. And of course,

1961
01:53:01,279 --> 01:53:04,239
with barely two days to go, I thought, what do

1962
01:53:04,279 --> 01:53:06,840
I do now? Because that that's sort of I mean,

1963
01:53:06,880 --> 01:53:09,880
I couldn't put anyway on it. I couldn't walk. I couldn't.

1964
01:53:10,319 --> 01:53:12,760
You couldn't even use the ski pole to hobble, and

1965
01:53:12,800 --> 01:53:15,239
I mean I was literally hobbling. And I thought, well,

1966
01:53:15,239 --> 01:53:19,279
I'm miles away from anywhere. I can't expect anybody to

1967
01:53:19,279 --> 01:53:22,159
carry me away sixteen a half stone, So what the

1968
01:53:22,239 --> 01:53:22,840
hell do you do?

1969
01:53:23,560 --> 01:53:26,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, dear well.

1970
01:53:27,239 --> 01:53:31,439
Speaker 4: Past, I had to go. I've got two people that

1971
01:53:31,880 --> 01:53:34,079
help help me out. Well, there was three of them actually,

1972
01:53:34,079 --> 01:53:35,960
But when I they said the best thing to do

1973
01:53:36,079 --> 01:53:39,159
is go up to the memorial stone. And there and

1974
01:53:39,199 --> 01:53:42,439
there were people passing by, but I had to sit

1975
01:53:42,520 --> 01:53:45,359
by the memorial stone. And I mean it was there

1976
01:53:45,399 --> 01:53:48,119
for hours and hours and hours, but I could have

1977
01:53:48,119 --> 01:53:52,079
been there for weeks. The forest what they said was

1978
01:53:52,119 --> 01:53:55,000
the forestry. One guy that came along said, I'm going

1979
01:53:55,039 --> 01:53:58,359
north into the polar Urals on these giant quod bikes.

1980
01:53:58,680 --> 01:54:00,680
He said, if you're still here, pick you up on

1981
01:54:00,720 --> 01:54:04,000
the way back. And I thought in a couple of hours,

1982
01:54:04,039 --> 01:54:05,880
but he so, I'll be back in about ten days.

1983
01:54:06,319 --> 01:54:12,039
And all bags and a bottle of water. So I

1984
01:54:12,039 --> 01:54:14,119
thought I'd better get more peanuts because I'm going to

1985
01:54:14,159 --> 01:54:18,239
be in for a bit. It wasn't I was actually

1986
01:54:18,319 --> 01:54:22,359
quite worried, you know. So it wasn't because I thought

1987
01:54:22,520 --> 01:54:26,119
I'm literally helpless and if I've been on I mean

1988
01:54:26,399 --> 01:54:30,119
we we when we were driving through the because after

1989
01:54:30,159 --> 01:54:32,039
they picked me up, I mean they had a real

1990
01:54:33,439 --> 01:54:36,520
built for all the muck. You know, I was going

1991
01:54:36,560 --> 01:54:40,119
into huge potholes and going through deep muddy with it. It

1992
01:54:40,199 --> 01:54:42,600
was a four wheel drive with several sets of years.

1993
01:54:43,239 --> 01:54:46,199
It was built for it. But we were making slow progress.

1994
01:54:46,199 --> 01:54:49,239
But we we would come across people on my own,

1995
01:54:49,920 --> 01:54:55,079
you know, not fancy but like trekkers. One guy had

1996
01:54:55,079 --> 01:54:58,479
a tent on his back and he was just hiking

1997
01:54:58,520 --> 01:55:01,359
on his own. I mean, way would I do that there?

1998
01:55:01,520 --> 01:55:04,920
Because the people that were taking me they stop and ask,

1999
01:55:05,000 --> 01:55:06,920
you know, do you need any help or you okay?

2000
01:55:06,960 --> 01:55:10,680
And they always say yeah, I'm fine or whatever. We

2001
01:55:11,560 --> 01:55:13,880
saw a couple of Nancy women and we spoke to them,

2002
01:55:13,920 --> 01:55:18,119
but they were very not suspicious, but they were wary.

2003
01:55:18,560 --> 01:55:21,960
They said, well, but no way would I go through.

2004
01:55:22,000 --> 01:55:25,880
And I actually had somebody, a lady. I'm not going

2005
01:55:25,920 --> 01:55:29,960
to nam her, but she said, I regularly go on

2006
01:55:30,079 --> 01:55:33,239
hiking expeditions in the UK and I'd like to go

2007
01:55:33,439 --> 01:55:36,239
through the urals on my own. What what what do

2008
01:55:36,279 --> 01:55:39,279
you recommend? And I said, well, you know, I said

2009
01:55:39,319 --> 01:55:42,800
I would not recommend. She didn't speak any Russian either,

2010
01:55:42,880 --> 01:55:45,319
but I said, I wouldn't recommend going up there on

2011
01:55:45,359 --> 01:55:48,319
your own at all, if if you've never been there before,

2012
01:55:48,439 --> 01:55:51,760
And and I sent to her what happened to me?

2013
01:55:51,840 --> 01:55:54,359
I said, if something happens to you, I said, there's

2014
01:55:54,520 --> 01:55:59,479
massive bears up there, one person on her own who

2015
01:55:59,520 --> 01:56:04,359
doesn't speak the lang say, she broke her ankle and

2016
01:56:04,560 --> 01:56:08,520
you can't get a satellite signal there. So you're as

2017
01:56:08,520 --> 01:56:09,279
good as finished.

2018
01:56:09,680 --> 01:56:12,600
Speaker 1: You really are, right son? You god on that.

2019
01:56:12,479 --> 01:56:13,039
Speaker 2: Kind of No.

2020
01:56:13,319 --> 01:56:15,640
Speaker 3: I'm really sorry, but we are coming to the end

2021
01:56:15,640 --> 01:56:18,640
of the show, but just before we disappear, I just

2022
01:56:18,680 --> 01:56:21,800
wanted a quick because you're working on a really a

2023
01:56:21,840 --> 01:56:24,880
new interesting case about a lighthouse at the moment, aren't you, Keith.

2024
01:56:25,600 --> 01:56:31,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, well I've done it. It's the flann And Islands,

2025
01:56:32,119 --> 01:56:36,439
the Three, the Disappearance of the Three Lighthousemen. I've actually.

2026
01:56:37,520 --> 01:56:38,159
Speaker 1: We were up.

2027
01:56:38,039 --> 01:56:41,520
Speaker 4: There filming with the Discovery Channel a couple of years back.

2028
01:56:41,720 --> 01:56:44,520
I mean, my book's out it's called The Lighthouse. But

2029
01:56:45,119 --> 01:56:46,960
that's a fascinating case as well.

2030
01:56:48,560 --> 01:56:50,720
Speaker 3: Sorry, would you come back and tell us all about

2031
01:56:50,720 --> 01:56:51,520
that in another show.

2032
01:56:52,079 --> 01:56:56,920
Speaker 4: Absolutely, yeah, it's not. It's not as convoluted the tale

2033
01:56:57,399 --> 01:57:01,439
as the diatlog story. But it's a strange one because

2034
01:57:01,960 --> 01:57:05,439
again everybody, like with the atlov everybody says it's obviously

2035
01:57:05,479 --> 01:57:09,920
an avalanche, which it is, and everybody says the disappearance

2036
01:57:09,960 --> 01:57:13,640
of these three men was a giant wave, which we

2037
01:57:13,720 --> 01:57:16,920
don't believe it was. Because I've spoken to a number

2038
01:57:16,920 --> 01:57:22,119
of lighthouse keepers because it's a profession. That's the profession

2039
01:57:22,119 --> 01:57:26,239
itself is dead now because all lighthouses are automated. But

2040
01:57:26,680 --> 01:57:29,560
I've spoken to one of them. Well, I've spoken to

2041
01:57:29,600 --> 01:57:33,800
both of the last two remaining alive men who were

2042
01:57:33,840 --> 01:57:37,279
on the Flannings, and I've also spoiled had a lot

2043
01:57:37,319 --> 01:57:42,279
of help from another keeper who'd worked with the Northern

2044
01:57:42,359 --> 01:57:44,880
Lighthouse Board. He wasn't on the Flannings, but he was

2045
01:57:44,920 --> 01:57:48,439
on several others, and between us, especially him, Alistair Henderson,

2046
01:57:48,479 --> 01:57:51,560
he's come up with some excellent theories on it. And

2047
01:57:51,600 --> 01:57:55,359
it's not a giant wave. I don't believe at all.

2048
01:57:55,199 --> 01:58:00,640
Speaker 3: But we'll say that for the next we do with you,

2049
01:58:00,760 --> 01:58:03,600
if that's okay, because you really do have to wrap

2050
01:58:03,640 --> 01:58:06,560
it up tonight, I'd like to thank you so so

2051
01:58:06,640 --> 01:58:10,560
much for joining us. It's been absolutely fascinating, so thank

2052
01:58:10,600 --> 01:58:11,359
you for joining us.

2053
01:58:12,199 --> 01:58:13,399
Speaker 4: Yep, thank you very much.

2054
01:58:13,800 --> 01:58:16,279
Speaker 3: And thank you Andy because you've been very helpful tonight

2055
01:58:16,319 --> 01:58:18,680
as well.

2056
01:58:17,159 --> 01:58:20,920
Speaker 1: Oh that's great, absolutely love it. So we're hoping to

2057
01:58:21,119 --> 01:58:22,680
have a good a conversation about this. I haven't go

2058
01:58:22,760 --> 01:58:24,520
for hours more, but I know they're not very happy

2059
01:58:24,560 --> 01:58:26,239
with me. I did the talk and talk and talk.

2060
01:58:26,119 --> 01:58:29,039
Speaker 2: So I go.

2061
01:58:29,800 --> 01:58:32,479
Speaker 3: I'd like to thank everybody in the chat room for

2062
01:58:32,560 --> 01:58:35,319
joining us, So thank you for that. I hope you

2063
01:58:35,560 --> 01:58:38,880
enjoyed tonight. Spread the word if you did, because it

2064
01:58:38,920 --> 01:58:42,560
goes to a podcast afterwards. We're also on the podbean.

2065
01:58:42,840 --> 01:58:45,920
We're also on the Internet archive. We're also on YouTube.

2066
01:58:46,319 --> 01:58:49,079
In fact, we're just about everywhere at the moment, so

2067
01:58:49,439 --> 01:58:52,119
please spread the word. Thank you so much for joining us,

2068
01:58:52,479 --> 01:58:56,439
and we'll be back with our weekly shows on Tuesday.

2069
01:58:56,520 --> 01:58:59,600
Speaker 2: I think I think it's Tuesday, so take care. Everybody.

2070
01:59:00,000 --> 01:59:06,119
Speaker 3: Say good night, lads, good night, good night lads, good kidnight.

2071
01:59:14,199 --> 01:59:14,479
Speaker 1: M hm.