Speaker 1: Welcome back everyone to castorly talk. We are here with
Speaker 1: another character interview. This one, I'm gonna warnier right now
Speaker 1: could get a little controversial because we are talking about
Speaker 1: one of the most complicated figures in all.
Speaker 2: Of Western Rosia history.
Speaker 1: We're talking about somebody who has a lot of fans,
Speaker 1: which we are I would say we count amongst those fans.
Speaker 1: He also has a lot of haters, many of which
Speaker 1: are some of our other favorites that hate this man
Speaker 1: for some very valid reasons. I am joined today by
Speaker 1: co host of the Imperial Cdit podcast, creator host of
Speaker 1: the Club, one of our best friends frequent collaborators.
Speaker 2: Contributed to Nicky Kumar is Bath. Hello, sir, how are you.
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm good, I'm excited, ready to talk about Jamie Stair.
Speaker 3: Of course I got, you know, my leanister red here.
Speaker 3: I made a real stake of not doing my dishes
Speaker 3: on time and I and I forgot I have a landhouse, linister,
Speaker 3: like it's like I'm gonna have that, and then you
Speaker 3: know it's kind of all fit and fit in the
Speaker 3: vibe and uh, you know, I screwed up, but to
Speaker 3: make up for it, I cut off my hands so you.
Speaker 1: Know, mm hmm around ballad the ballad and and being
Speaker 1: without your mug in in a way as being without
Speaker 1: a great tool, which I think is something that that
Speaker 1: Jamie has to get over, has to learn.
Speaker 2: Uh. Like Nicky said, and like you know, because you
Speaker 2: clicked on it.
Speaker 1: Today we're talking about I was gonna say the Kings Slayer,
Speaker 1: but I have a compulsion within me to always yell
Speaker 1: as loud as.
Speaker 3: I can get it.
Speaker 2: We're telling stories.
Speaker 1: We will we'll get into uh. I am really excited
Speaker 1: to talk about this character in general, but always with you.
Speaker 2: In our friendship.
Speaker 1: Talking about Jamie has been a consistent thing that's always
Speaker 1: come up. And like we talked about a lot of
Speaker 1: characters a lot, but this is one that I know
Speaker 1: as a character who's near and dear to use one
Speaker 1: of your faves, and where I want to start with
Speaker 1: him is something that's really more about you, which all
Speaker 1: of these are to a degree, which is why I
Speaker 1: want to make it really personal and not just the
Speaker 1: trivia of it. Because we can all go down his
Speaker 1: stats and believe me, he will too, and a lot
Speaker 1: of people. The story will of what he's done, but
Speaker 1: the why it connects with the person is always so
Speaker 1: interesting to men because I know you so well and
Speaker 1: we talk every day.
Speaker 2: One thing that has emerged with you that you love
Speaker 2: in a character is.
Speaker 1: I would say expertise and precision, and these are things
Speaker 1: that come up in There's a lot of ranged combatants
Speaker 1: that this comes up in. And while James he is not,
Speaker 1: you know, an archer, and so I can't do like
Speaker 1: a one to one with him and some other characters
Speaker 1: that you like in terms of their actual skill set.
Speaker 2: He is, you know, so effective at what he does
Speaker 2: and so deadly that he does.
Speaker 1: He is sort of like that ace in the same
Speaker 1: way that someone like cross Hair is who we've talked
Speaker 1: about in relation to him a lot, especially with what
Speaker 1: happens to cross Hair a little bit down the road,
Speaker 1: like spoilers for the bad Batch. You should all watch it.
Speaker 1: But in terms of you, where do you think that
Speaker 1: that stems from? Your student of history? You love character,
Speaker 1: you're a writer, but why this does it come from
Speaker 1: a sportsmantality? Does it come from having parents in the
Speaker 1: medical field?
Speaker 2: Like what do you think that is?
Speaker 3: Okay, so we're doing therapy session. I guess I guess
Speaker 3: you know it's interesting. I think there's a lot of
Speaker 3: facets that to your point about sort of precision expertise,
Speaker 3: and probably is a lot of like things I things
Speaker 3: I really love, like sports related like but even things
Speaker 3: like racing. Like it's why I love pod racing, It's
Speaker 3: why I like. I love the idea that you can
Speaker 3: It's why I love pilots in general. It's why I
Speaker 3: love the fighter pilots in any story, and especially in
Speaker 3: Star Wars. I love the idea that, you know, just
Speaker 3: being good at something is enough to kind of get
Speaker 3: you through. It's it's it's it's sort of this uh,
Speaker 3: you know, this thing of like I I love the
Speaker 3: the rebellion pillet resistance pilots who you know, just simply
Speaker 3: off the skill of you know, like a like a
Speaker 3: wedge antilities being like, you know what, one day I'd
Speaker 3: hit it again in a cockpit and I just lent
Speaker 3: for it and I and I was there from Adalan
Speaker 3: to Hexagal, you know, and like like I love that
Speaker 3: kind of thing. I love it. In the context of
Speaker 3: studying World War Two, I love the the aviators of
Speaker 3: World War two and and things they went through and
Speaker 3: again just as regular people who were like I guess
Speaker 3: this is what I'm doing. I'm getting in a B
Speaker 3: seventeen and I'm flying a big ass plane over you know,
Speaker 3: over Europe and all this, and so I love all
Speaker 3: that and I think that definitely is a big part
Speaker 3: of why like Jamie. But I think in the end
Speaker 3: it's probably something a lot more personal. And it's like
Speaker 3: I think, I think I love these characters who their
Speaker 3: exterior shows the world and gives the world an entirely
Speaker 3: different view of what they actually are. And and that's
Speaker 3: often like self inflicted, especially with Jamie's case, not never,
Speaker 3: he never helps himself in that in that type of scenario.
Speaker 3: But I but I always love these characters who who
Speaker 3: have this this sort of and again the range is
Speaker 3: very wide, like they're not all one to ones, but
Speaker 3: like outside of cross Hair Sniping likes that he's inaccessible
Speaker 3: as a person until until you start seeing and and
Speaker 3: then you get those lines of like of course the Hunter,
Speaker 3: Oh you're as bad as Hunter, Like no, I'm much
Speaker 3: worse when it comes to like caring for this child
Speaker 3: and like like it's stuff like that, and it's a
Speaker 3: it's a character like I even say Chopper, like like
Speaker 3: Chopper is insane as a droid, but he shows those
Speaker 3: moments that he cares like it's it's uh, it just goes,
Speaker 3: it goes somewhere differently.
Speaker 2: And and.
Speaker 3: I mean and other ones like I think of you know,
Speaker 3: I think of Snape. I think of Tim Riggins from
Speaker 3: from Friday Night Lights. Like these people who exterior and
Speaker 3: demeanor creates this version for people to perceive that is
Speaker 3: hiding something really either narratively like interesting or even just
Speaker 3: down to like just nice. Like I think something like
Speaker 3: really rich about those characters. And and I think Jamie
Speaker 3: is the one, like the big one in Game of
Speaker 3: Throne or sung Aboy some fire for me, who who
Speaker 3: does that kind of the I think I think his
Speaker 3: like twing the hardest on on all of that. What
Speaker 3: does that say about me?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Right, you're like, and uh so in my central
Speaker 4: wound is Yeah, I think I do have that though
Speaker 4: I think duality.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I think I have that to a
Speaker 3: degree where I think, like, I think I do wonder
Speaker 3: how I'm perceived by people and if it's accurate to
Speaker 3: who I like, know I am. I think I think
Speaker 3: I do want that. So I think I do really
Speaker 3: find myself connecting the characters who who exhibit that in
Speaker 3: very extreme verss in a lot of fiction.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1: I mean the we're a hyper aware generation, and we're
Speaker 1: a hyper aware type of guy. I think, just like
Speaker 1: the types of conversations you and I have and that
Speaker 1: our friends have, we're always very in like our perspective
Speaker 1: and how it clashes with maybe what's in vogue or
Speaker 1: how or how it doesn't and uh, you know, communal
Speaker 1: conversations or something that we get into a lot and
Speaker 1: we're both like very aware of like our place in
Speaker 1: groups good and bad. And I think that's something that
Speaker 1: Jamie definitely has, like right out of the get is
Speaker 1: that he is a character of contrast where you are
Speaker 1: in deared already so quickly to the starks that he
Speaker 1: comes around sort of challenging what you know. But there's
Speaker 1: something not right already, as if you ran as a
Speaker 1: reader about his classes with Ned, where you're like, why
Speaker 1: does it feel like Ned doesn't have the full like.
Speaker 2: Standing here, Like it does feel like there's something I'm
Speaker 2: not privy to.
Speaker 1: Like they do a great job of indicating a lived
Speaker 1: in history through this guy that people's ideas of him
Speaker 1: are so.
Speaker 2: It's widespread.
Speaker 1: First of all, it's like a realm wide opinion of him,
Speaker 1: but like everybody's coming out from these different angles, and
Speaker 1: it's interesting. And another character that came to mind when
Speaker 1: you were talking about that archetype is Wolverine in that
Speaker 1: he is literally known as in the way that Batman
Speaker 1: has like the Cape Crusader, the Dark Knight.
Speaker 2: Wolverine is the best there is at what he does,
Speaker 2: and what he does isn't very nice.
Speaker 3: That's the thing.
Speaker 2: I'm the best there is what I do, Bub.
Speaker 1: And he is the best there is a what he does, Bob.
Speaker 1: But he is also always the dad, the reluctant dad.
Speaker 2: He is always the girl dad.
Speaker 1: He's always Professor Logan, and he's always like these things
Speaker 1: of like, oh you really want love and love comes
Speaker 1: you are that you are that lone wolf. That isn't
Speaker 1: actually and and not that that's Jamie, but just like
Speaker 1: in the sense that you could be. You could simplify
Speaker 1: these guys down to bloodshed in a lot of ways,
Speaker 1: or their deeds and Jamie's ideas of what knighthood is
Speaker 1: and what knighthood has proven to be like in his career,
Speaker 1: such a fascinating things that we'll talk about.
Speaker 2: A little bit.
Speaker 1: So your first exposure to him is I'm assuming the
Speaker 1: pilot of of got.
Speaker 3: Uh correct, mister Nikolai Custer Weldo and and his uh
Speaker 3: his portrayal of of Jamie is the beginning for me.
Speaker 3: And yeah, I think, you know, speaking of speaking of expertise,
Speaker 3: like you know, and then liking sort of like characters
Speaker 3: like I know you know this, but like I'm also
Speaker 3: obsessed with the King's Guard, so like just the idea
Speaker 3: of these like this little squadron of like the best
Speaker 3: of the best or so we're mentable, right, So so anyway,
Speaker 3: like him being a part of that was already a
Speaker 3: very like kind of cool thing to me. The armor
Speaker 3: is great, you know, very specific and and and yeah,
Speaker 3: I think like he's just he's just a very you know,
Speaker 3: through writing through performance, Like he's a very like engaging person,
Speaker 3: even even when you're like hating it, right, like because
Speaker 3: you know he's going up as you said, like he's
Speaker 3: going up against character we're already coed to to be
Speaker 3: write or die for. But then but then there's even
Speaker 3: moments in like you know, I'll think of the where
Speaker 3: Jory Jory Castle goes to like deliver something and Jamie's outside,
Speaker 3: and I just I always just I always think about
Speaker 3: the one, the part where he's like, oh yeah, he's
Speaker 3: a good lad and Jamie's just like like immediately immediately,
Speaker 3: just like I doubt it, and and just so it's
Speaker 3: like that is very engaging despite being you know, villain
Speaker 3: coded as as we're meant to meant to see him.
Speaker 3: But but I would say, my, my like real of
Speaker 3: Jamie came from from the books. And and you know
Speaker 3: that obviously the extent of his character we got in
Speaker 3: the show, as far as it lines up with the books,
Speaker 3: kind of went really like it was executed very well.
Speaker 3: But but for the book itself or the books themselves really,
Speaker 3: or what sort of catapulted my interest of character, and
Speaker 3: as I'm sure like for pretty much anyone who's read it,
Speaker 3: because you know, I don't know the I don't know
Speaker 3: the brown on the channel of like people who are
Speaker 3: listening who have or only show watchers or book and
Speaker 3: show readers or whatever. But for anyone who doesn't know
Speaker 3: the series of the novels are given through point of
Speaker 3: view chapters, and for first two books, ah, it's it's
Speaker 3: the world perceiving Jamie, and then it's it's only until
Speaker 3: the third book when he actually becomes one of the
Speaker 3: ps Every every book is or every chapter is titled
Speaker 3: as like the character it's showing and the I remember
Speaker 3: the first time you turn page Jamie. I was like, oh, okay,
Speaker 3: let's go, let's let's see what's going on. Yeah, so yeah,
Speaker 3: I think, you know, definitely the show was this, you know,
Speaker 3: this the opening of the door. But I really do credit,
Speaker 3: you know, mister Martin Felf for for being for you know,
Speaker 3: just telling the tale of the character so far as
Speaker 3: brilliantly as as he's done.
Speaker 1: Can I make an observation about him just in terms
Speaker 1: of like first impressions that I don't know quite how
Speaker 1: to articulate. It might sound like silly, but you'll know
Speaker 1: what I mean something about Jamie because my my first
Speaker 1: exposure to him was also the pilot. And for people
Speaker 1: that have been casually talked viewers that know Ken has
Speaker 1: read all the books, and Nicky's read all the books,
Speaker 1: and he's read all the books. I just finished the
Speaker 1: second book, so we'll we'll dive in and out of
Speaker 1: books and I don't you know, NICKI will be free
Speaker 1: to jump into that, but just for anyone that knows
Speaker 1: from this point on, if there's a book spoiler, you've
Speaker 1: been worn. But the the the thing that got me
Speaker 1: about him right at the pilot is that I'm a
Speaker 1: big character names person. I know you are, a lot
Speaker 1: of our nerdy friends are, especially in fantasy and sci fi.
Speaker 1: Something about Jamie as a name no offense to any Jamies.
Speaker 2: It doesn't, it doesn't.
Speaker 1: It doesn't strike majesty, it doesn't strike tear. It doesn't,
Speaker 1: it doesn't sound badass tyrium a name alone, circe having
Speaker 1: mythological you know, allusion to it, like that, these are
Speaker 1: names even even you know Edard. You know, yes he's
Speaker 1: ned to his friends, but like Eduard, like these are
Speaker 1: names that it's like whoa even theods. But then he
Speaker 1: gives the deadliest and most like notorious, a name that
Speaker 1: sounds fitting of a little boy. And then we learn
Speaker 1: in his story how much like that early boyhood like
Speaker 1: experience is fundamental to him, like be made to feel
Speaker 1: stupid and and like in a lot of ways like Jamie,
Speaker 1: like it's a it's a it's a it's a childish
Speaker 1: sounding name to me. And again I don't want me
Speaker 1: to offend any Jamie. If you're a Jamie out there
Speaker 1: and you're fully man, I believe you. But like, it's
Speaker 1: just it evokes the child that, like Taiwand was never
Speaker 1: fully proud of every time I hear it in a
Speaker 1: way that most of the other names don't.
Speaker 2: Like.
Speaker 1: It's not that your name has to be elaborate. John's
Speaker 1: not a fantasy name, but it just it doesn't feel
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 2: Do you have that at all?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess I never super thought of it. The
Speaker 3: only thing that I think of is one of my
Speaker 3: friends would like refuse to call him anything else behind
Speaker 3: me that kind of Yeah, that kind of grags me up.
Speaker 3: He'd be like him LANs. But uh, yeah, Like I
Speaker 3: think George obviously, George is very intentional about his naming.
Speaker 3: So I think there is something about it being's name
Speaker 3: that we perceive, we know in our world as whether
Speaker 3: whether it's childish or not. It is both.
Speaker 1: Masculine and both masculine and feminine and very regular. Like
Speaker 1: you had you had probably three three four Jamis in
Speaker 1: your elementary school, you know I did.
Speaker 3: Right, And so like there's there's he's he's a really
Speaker 3: interesting character. Namer in that way, because yeah, you have
Speaker 3: people who really swing from like high fantasy into like
Speaker 3: your neighbor's kids, right, Like it's it's really crazy. I
Speaker 3: mean yeah, because you have like you you know, Barriston,
Speaker 3: and then you have your and then you have Sam
Speaker 3: sam Well, Sam Well. It's a little kind of you know,
Speaker 3: or Ed right or or Carl Tanner from Allan you know,
Speaker 3: get it right. Yeah, and U and I always I
Speaker 3: always marvel in Star Wars too, because Star Wars does
Speaker 3: this amazingly well. Obviously your your character is Luke right,
Speaker 3: and and then and Luke and Ben, you know, it's
Speaker 3: like and then uh, then you have you know, Brendon
Speaker 3: muff Will of talking. So yeah, you know, just ways
Speaker 3: to like swing it back and forth from like this
Speaker 3: this sort of high high thing to to the mundane.
Speaker 3: And I think it like informs the character in a
Speaker 3: really interesting way because I think something everybody likes to
Speaker 3: talk about, for both good reasons and overblown reasons, is
Speaker 3: how much of George R. Martin's work with A Song
Speaker 3: of Ice and Fire is about the subversion of of
Speaker 3: tropes and the subversion of of the fantasy you're familiar with,
Speaker 3: and so I think there is something cool of like
Speaker 3: the name not matching the best sword in the realm, right,
Speaker 3: like at least you know, there's something cool about that.
Speaker 3: And one one thing I love about the character. I
Speaker 3: remember had to write a like I in college, I
Speaker 3: took a game of cat and it was under the
Speaker 3: English department, so so it was very like literary based.
Speaker 3: And one of the professor made us like pick a
Speaker 3: passage from you know, one of the one of the
Speaker 3: I think, I think we had only read the first
Speaker 3: book at that point. We had to pick a pageant
Speaker 3: and like just close read a passage basically as this essay,
Speaker 3: and and like focus on words and stuff. And I
Speaker 3: think I gold because I knew I wanted to write
Speaker 3: about Jamie and it was like I always the scene
Speaker 3: was stuck with me because of it. And it's it's
Speaker 3: when they first show up to winter Fell, and you
Speaker 3: know you were talking earlier about how how many characters
Speaker 3: perceive him for being you know, the King Slayer or
Speaker 3: whatnot and or that that that guy. But the first
Speaker 3: person you see it from his brand, who is a
Speaker 3: child and maybe intellectually knows some things I don't know.
Speaker 3: The I can't remember the extent to which Brandon educated.
Speaker 3: But he's he sees Jamie and he sees Robert at
Speaker 3: the same time, and he's like, he's like, this fat
Speaker 3: loser is the king. He's like, like, that guy should
Speaker 3: be the king. That guy looks cool. That guy is
Speaker 3: what I when I imagine night, you know, like the
Speaker 3: Enzo Ferrari quote of you ask a you ask a
Speaker 3: child to draw a race. He's gonna read and like
Speaker 3: that that being like the thesis of a Ferrari is like,
Speaker 3: it's that for Jamie. He's like, you could go around,
Speaker 3: I'm the greatest person in the realm. It's going to
Speaker 3: be that beautiful blonde guy you know, on horseback and
Speaker 3: in shining armor, and and that already is now you know,
Speaker 3: a subversion of you know, brandspectations along with ours, right
Speaker 3: like this, this this guy who he thinks looks like
Speaker 3: the most noble guy in the realm, is going to
Speaker 3: put him out a window, you know, rather shortly. And
Speaker 3: so so yeah, I think there's just so a lot
Speaker 3: of like very going on with your point about the name,
Speaker 3: with your with the way he's being perceived by children,
Speaker 3: and then they eventually like get to.
Speaker 1: Know, Yeah, no, I love that the point that you
Speaker 1: made about George's subversions being overblown, but when they are there,
Speaker 1: you know, when you when you get them, because it's
Speaker 1: it's overblown like motivational, right, Like fans think that it's
Speaker 1: a it's about dunking, and it's like, no, it's about unpacking.
Speaker 1: It's about it's about, you know, giving different angles on it,
Speaker 1: and Jamie does.
Speaker 2: He's like one of the best examples of that.
Speaker 1: I mean, we're we're jumping around a little bit, and
Speaker 1: I do want to still get some of your more
Speaker 1: first impressions on him. But the you can make an argument,
Speaker 1: you know, especially as he's with Brion, that like some
Speaker 1: of the most knightly things that are happening at that
Speaker 1: point in the story are happening there, but they're happening
Speaker 1: with no witnesses, right, They're happening with no glory.
Speaker 2: They're happening with only this one person that can see.
Speaker 1: So that all that is just so baked into the
Speaker 1: character that even in this pilot you know, or or
Speaker 1: in the case of the novels, those first couple of chapters,
Speaker 1: you are immediately you know, nudged as a reader, as
Speaker 1: a viewer toward understanding that he is a villain ish
Speaker 1: at least for right now. There is you know, the
Speaker 1: the light matter of incest, which we've gone twenty three
Speaker 1: minutes up to this point. I think I only alluded
Speaker 1: to it once, and now we're gonna go out right
Speaker 1: talk about it. Uh that and then we have the
Speaker 1: uh the attempted burder of a child. But the other
Speaker 1: thing about that that early stuff, especially in the show,
Speaker 1: because you have these two incredible actors and Peter and Nikola,
Speaker 1: is that you do really early understand that he loves
Speaker 1: his brother. That is always a thing that like they
Speaker 1: use as like his earliest the earliest lifeline of the
Speaker 1: character is that then you get more as you go,
Speaker 1: but from the get you understand that, like there is
Speaker 1: something between these two.
Speaker 2: Even when they're separated.
Speaker 1: In the early stuff, as the war is breaking out,
Speaker 1: they're they're thinking about each other.
Speaker 2: They want to be able to call each other. He
Speaker 2: wishes he could call on him for this, and.
Speaker 1: Jamie is willing to start start a war over Tyrian safety,
Speaker 1: and and all of that I think is really rich
Speaker 1: right up front. So with it being in your first
Speaker 1: exposure to everybody, had a you feel about him as
Speaker 1: a member of the Lanisters as well, did did the
Speaker 1: idea of them being the villainous family, and as much
Speaker 1: as we could simplify it to that also intrigue you
Speaker 1: because you're not somebody for people that don't know you.
Speaker 1: You're not like a typically a villain's first guy. As
Speaker 1: much as I know you're not like an Empire guy.
Speaker 1: You're very much a rebel wiance guy.
Speaker 3: Right right, Yeah, I think that that's like easy thing
Speaker 3: to like say, right up is like team Stark baby, right,
Speaker 3: like like let's not let's not get it twisted, you know, like, yeah,
Speaker 3: I don't, I don't care what era. I'm waiting for
Speaker 3: the winter Wolves in a few weeks, like like I'm
Speaker 3: a team's starting, and so it's I think there's I
Speaker 3: think a lot of what comes down to the Lanisters
Speaker 3: as we know them in the show is estally, I mean,
Speaker 3: first and foremost, it is the cast. I think you'll
Speaker 3: never like for whatever I could play on anybody at
Speaker 3: any given moment in terms of like being like, oh yeah,
Speaker 3: these guys aren't so bad. It's down to it. It's
Speaker 3: down to the cast. And then I think, based off
Speaker 3: what we know about Benioff, and Wiss and how they
Speaker 3: sort of perceived the story as being more like political
Speaker 3: drama let's say, then, than like they brank that over
Speaker 3: the fantasy elements. I think is probably assumption at this
Speaker 3: point in how they look look at the series. I
Speaker 3: think just the people who aren't afraid of rule breaking,
Speaker 3: I think are are the ones who would be the
Speaker 3: most interesting to write in a in a political politician drama.
Speaker 3: So I think it's kind of like it's almost like
Speaker 3: it's never really about their side, and it's I find it.
Speaker 3: I find myself in a similar place with the Greens,
Speaker 3: like it's it's never about the cause they're fighting, but
Speaker 3: they're just good, Like they're like the actors are great
Speaker 3: and they're being written well. And I think I think
Speaker 3: that is really what it comes down to in the end.
Speaker 3: I don't I don't think there's a whole lot in
Speaker 3: especially while we're talking like first impressions. I don't know
Speaker 3: in season one to be like, oh yeah, the Lenisters are,
Speaker 3: you know, they they got their points, Like I don't
Speaker 3: think because even because even Tyrian, even Tyrian is a
Speaker 3: hire within the first season, right, like so you can
Speaker 3: you can spread him out because because he's very obviously
Speaker 3: like you know, he's a scene steeler, he's a ship
Speaker 3: he's a serious stealer. Like he's he's everything. And you know,
Speaker 3: probably I don't I couldn't like ascribe a percentage to it,
Speaker 3: but probably the vast like like a large percentage of
Speaker 3: the success of the show is funded Peter Dinklice as Lanister, right,
Speaker 3: Like people know I drink and I know things like
Speaker 3: you know, like like that's that that was on shirts
Speaker 3: and target, right, like and so so it's like, you know,
Speaker 3: I don't think it was ever a case of like
Speaker 3: being drawn to them by by ideology or whatever, but
Speaker 3: like just they're just so they're just so delightful and
Speaker 3: like like you know that that scene with Jamie and
Speaker 3: John when when he's like, so I heard you're going
Speaker 3: to the Nights one, it's just he's just he's just
Speaker 3: poking everybody, right, He's like, oh, there there's an eye.
Speaker 3: I will poke it just because I can't, you know,
Speaker 3: and and and again it's and it's just fascinating because
Speaker 3: it's like sort of what I said about this exterior
Speaker 3: projecting an exterior to hide the interior. It's like it's
Speaker 3: like Jamie. I feel like if Jamie and John just
Speaker 3: that and like had a good talk like as themselves,
Speaker 3: like they really get along, you know, like like if
Speaker 3: season eight Jamie has something to say to John, he
Speaker 3: does eventually. I think there's probably like some some like
Speaker 3: amount of like mutual respect. But it's very fun. It's
Speaker 3: very Jamie that's built this fortress around this sort of
Speaker 3: persona of what he needs to be right and and
Speaker 3: just that's just not a nice person in the end,
Speaker 3: and and yeah, like it's it's it's very fascinating, like
Speaker 3: and sort of like you said again in terms of
Speaker 3: like his his barbs with Ned, and it's like, yeah,
Speaker 3: we're trained to be on Ned's side, but like there's something,
Speaker 3: there's something that he's saying here that is it's not
Speaker 3: letting me like fully commit against him. I think that's
Speaker 3: that's that's really like the part of again not being
Speaker 3: on their side, but like just there's something about it.
Speaker 3: There's something, I mean, I.
Speaker 1: Think, and you could tell and you could tell it
Speaker 1: throws Ned. It throws Ned, and that that throws you,
Speaker 1: and and Sean Bean in the show plays it, it
Speaker 1: plays it so beautifully, which is I was like we
Speaker 1: should we should mention this too. The first one of
Speaker 1: these we did was the best Stanis. The second one
Speaker 1: we did was about Brien. In both of those, you know,
Speaker 1: they are obviously like everybody is younger on the page,
Speaker 1: you know, for all types of practical and real world reasons.
Speaker 1: The shows, you know, which I think is a decision
Speaker 1: everybody supports and showed support based on things that happened.
Speaker 2: Everybody is aged up quite a bit.
Speaker 1: But you know, you you having Jamie as as as
Speaker 1: your character and the topic today and everybody. By the way,
Speaker 1: I've said this the first two, everybody's gonna come back
Speaker 1: on the show and talk about other characters too. I'm
Speaker 1: just rotating through the one I associate with people the
Speaker 1: most everything. I'm not saying Nikki can only ever talk
Speaker 1: about Jamie. But given that Jamie is the first one
Speaker 1: where that really feels like a relevant point, I'm curious
Speaker 1: about your thoughts on that because it doesn't affect someone
Speaker 1: like Stantus as much. But Jamie's age up from the
Speaker 1: page to Nickelai's interpretation of the character is pretty significant
Speaker 1: in terms of how he plays. It's as significant as
Speaker 1: you know the Starks where they are boys and That's
Speaker 1: something that's been really hitting me reading Robin John versus
Speaker 1: having watched them, because I've watched the show through multiple
Speaker 1: times already, and so it's like, I feel like I
Speaker 1: really know Robin John. And then there are scenes with
Speaker 1: them in the in the text and with Jamie where
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, this is a young man's thought. It
Speaker 1: happened with Ned and Kat too, like Ned and Catt
Speaker 1: and the Books one, Books one two shout out Ned
Speaker 1: Ned and Book one is having internal monologue of like
Speaker 1: maybe I'll go back and you know, have another kid
Speaker 1: with Kat, like you know, we could have another one,
Speaker 1: like you know, like then.
Speaker 2: That stuff's not in the show because everybody's aged up.
Speaker 1: So with Jamie there is like almost like you're not
Speaker 1: losing an element of like him being a young prodigy
Speaker 1: because they still talk about it, but it was further
Speaker 1: back in the show. So how does that How does
Speaker 1: that all play for differences and what Nikolay does with
Speaker 1: his take?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I think Nikolay also has.
Speaker 2: A I think it didn't.
Speaker 3: I actually don't know if I thought about it too
Speaker 3: much because I feel like he, at least in the
Speaker 3: show still kind of like looks young enough it certainly
Speaker 3: in season one, like he's just charming.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he's charming.
Speaker 3: Right, he still kind of looks young enough to be like, yeah,
Speaker 3: he's in his thirties or whatever, like, which I think
Speaker 3: is what it would see seventeen is that what seventeen
Speaker 3: plus seventeen or something or no less.
Speaker 2: Than that, I don't know, seventeen plus like eleven or something.
Speaker 2: I can't remember.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I guess it's however, old John is so
Speaker 3: oh yeah, fourteen or fifteen, Yeah, so yeah, I could
Speaker 3: buy him as someone in his thirties probably at that point. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So yeah, It's like I don't know if if I
Speaker 3: really I don't know if it really caught me too
Speaker 3: much when I was watching it in terms of the
Speaker 3: age scaling, did it did catch you? Like about the
Speaker 3: way he's it's.
Speaker 2: It is almost like his isn't as jarring as the
Speaker 2: Stark Boys. But there are moments.
Speaker 1: In the uh, especially in the conversation with Kat, which
Speaker 1: is you know, staged a little bit differently, And there
Speaker 1: are things in the books that are like that, just
Speaker 1: you know, because you know that like sometimes he's writing
Speaker 1: a location where it's just like either we don't have
Speaker 1: the money for that, or you know, HBO wasn't there
Speaker 1: at that point for likes, you know, not like where
Speaker 1: they're at, like now with House where it's like bigger
Speaker 1: than it's ever been, or nine seven Kingdoms where it's
Speaker 1: more colorful, but it's.
Speaker 2: Ever been, and like the armor more book accurate and
Speaker 2: blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: So it's like sometimes replacing the scene in a little
Speaker 1: bit of a different circumstance and the cat one like
Speaker 1: instead of him being like in that like cage that
Speaker 1: he's in, like when she dresses him down and sit
Speaker 1: talks him, he's like in the cell at river Run
Speaker 1: like at the bottom and she goes down there, and
Speaker 1: like it's a longer scene and it's a little bit
Speaker 1: more of a snarkier version of the scene. And the
Speaker 1: sexual like trying to intimidate her sexually is a little
Speaker 1: bit to me. I fel like it was laid on thicker,
Speaker 1: like a younger guy would do. Like there are little
Speaker 1: moments like that where it's like, I think his shittiness
Speaker 1: and honestly, everybody's every thing is a little bit more
Speaker 1: amped up with page time, Like that's just the thing.
Speaker 1: But maybe it's because I'm as a as a longtime
Speaker 1: show watcher new reader. I'm so conscious of the changes
Speaker 1: that I am creating a younger guy in my head
Speaker 1: because i know that's happening with Aria, where I've had
Speaker 1: to put effort into not imagining Mazie because I have
Speaker 1: to remember a a younger girl and then be they
Speaker 1: physically describe her to be different than Mazy like our books.
Speaker 1: I think they say has like, well, they're being mean,
Speaker 1: but they say like she has like horse face, she
Speaker 1: has like a long head and everything, and it's like,
Speaker 1: that's not Mazy Williams.
Speaker 2: We know, very round in the head. So it's like
Speaker 2: that made me be like, oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: Something else of the show didn't do as much. It
Speaker 3: really only did it with Sanza. Is how like Rob
Speaker 3: and Sonza are very and thetally kidd uh yeah, and
Speaker 3: like they they they reflect the Tully side much heavier,
Speaker 3: and I think, yeah, I don't remember when they say it,
Speaker 3: but they're literally like Aria is very starky and very lean,
Speaker 3: right like yeah, And I think, again, not to delvi
Speaker 3: into a anything, but you know that sets her apart
Speaker 3: from from the other kid.
Speaker 1: You know what this is, This is just like just
Speaker 1: not about anybody, not anything important, but the thing that
Speaker 1: really throws me every time every time that I read
Speaker 1: Taiwan or Taiwan is mentioned, I picture Charles Dance because
Speaker 1: of course, and then I have to remind myself that
Speaker 1: book Taiwan is bald, and so that I have.
Speaker 2: To imagine a bald Charles Dance, And I'm like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, interesting, I haven't read it in a while. But
Speaker 3: is he also like much like Brownier.
Speaker 1: I feel like he's like, yeah, more like physically imposing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know if he's like a brick shit out
Speaker 1: an He's like he's tall, dude, you embarrass me? Uh yeah,
Speaker 1: So like it hasn't come up too much. I'm curious
Speaker 1: once I get into book three and we get more
Speaker 1: into him being out about his POV how it's gonna play.
Speaker 2: I'm excited for that, but.
Speaker 1: Moving past sort of like your your initial stuff, you're there,
Speaker 1: you get Nikolay, he's making these great choices.
Speaker 2: I love that you brought up the moment with the jury. Uh.
Speaker 1: Similarly in the John scene that you brought up it's
Speaker 1: the uh, well, it's only for life, like it's just
Speaker 1: like the little the little barbs, like you said, because
Speaker 1: he can, because he has, he's exerting some control because
Speaker 1: he's such an insecure being.
Speaker 2: I want to jump ahead. I'm gonna throw out the scene.
Speaker 1: You don't have to talk just about that scene, but
Speaker 1: just sort of like I think the bathtub scene is
Speaker 1: kind of the Banner Hall of Fame thing for like
Speaker 1: revealing the truth of I'm not gonna say the best
Speaker 1: in the series, but definitely a top moment for this
Speaker 1: character and for any of them. Of you thought you knew, well,
Speaker 1: now I'm gonna tell you, what are your thoughts on
Speaker 1: everything that you learned later and whether it's that seem
Speaker 1: specifically or just in general, and how it informed your
Speaker 1: approach to the character because you are such an appreciator
Speaker 1: of that history and this series we touched on a
Speaker 1: little bit with Ned gives you so many people who
Speaker 1: believe one thing, and it's not like what they believe
Speaker 1: is wrong, but their their context for it is so missing.
Speaker 1: How does that play for you as as somebody who
Speaker 1: likes the character and as somebody who's just interested in
Speaker 1: the history of these nights and what their honor means
Speaker 1: because Jay, because Ned is there saying I have honor
Speaker 1: and Jamie is like okay, but he doesn't say it
Speaker 1: in these words, but his it's his presence I think
Speaker 1: makes Ned uncomfortable because it forces Ned to ask like
Speaker 1: what would I have done right? And nobody wants to
Speaker 1: have to have that conversation with him.
Speaker 3: Yeah again, like uh, it was just we sort of
Speaker 3: like mentioned that scene a lot, but like just that
Speaker 3: that one question of what would I be more honorable
Speaker 3: if I stayed him in the stomach instead of the back,
Speaker 3: like you know, just just being able to sort of
Speaker 3: like serve that up. And anyway, Yeah, to go to
Speaker 3: go to the bathtub, the famous uh Jamie scene. I
Speaker 3: think actually I do have to wind back a little
Speaker 3: bit to the chapter you mentioned, which, in a lot
Speaker 3: of ways actually is the one that stays with me
Speaker 3: more of uh when Catlin goes to talk to him
Speaker 3: at the end of Class Kings before before letting him
Speaker 3: or releasing him. I think that was the that was
Speaker 3: the one where it was like, oh, okay. I think
Speaker 3: George probably knew he was bringing Jamie Hn as a
Speaker 3: POV character and was like, I'm gonna set the table here.
Speaker 3: And I think actually, for as much as the bathtub
Speaker 3: is is the clear breakthrough that that scene initially in
Speaker 3: the cell Is. I think like that was the one
Speaker 3: that really sort of started started my like looking at
Speaker 3: him because it sort of brings up these the same
Speaker 3: ideas and you know, just getting into the contradictions of
Speaker 3: his life, right Like I think I think it's at
Speaker 3: that that point with Catlin where he does the whole
Speaker 3: like there's so many rules. Man, you gotta you gotta
Speaker 3: obey the gods, you gotta obey the king, you gotta
Speaker 3: obey your father, you gotta be true to your family.
Speaker 3: And it's like what happens when they're all mushed together
Speaker 3: and and they're all, you know, being being honest to one,
Speaker 3: being honest to the other, and and again it's all filtered.
Speaker 3: It's it's just it's kind of the most perfect exchange
Speaker 3: Jamee dialogue, at least for the character at that point,
Speaker 3: because it's like it's it's truth with just like a
Speaker 3: slap and like he's he's also you can just like
Speaker 3: imagine him on the ground, like this physical representation of
Speaker 3: him just being like I'm gonna tell you the truth,
Speaker 3: but I'm also taking swipes at you, like like you know,
Speaker 3: he he he is sort of like twisting the knife
Speaker 3: on mad he is he admits he flung Brand out
Speaker 3: the window, like he's he is trying to hurt her,
Speaker 3: but he's also just revealing this this core truth of
Speaker 3: his character, which is he he's probably saved more people
Speaker 3: than anyone else in the series, right like he is
Speaker 3: he has directly I don't know, I don't know what
Speaker 3: the population is, but we'll say like a million, like
Speaker 3: just yeah, he's saved so many people.
Speaker 1: And and he is friends, friends and enemies like he
Speaker 1: saved he saved this, you know, all the forces of
Speaker 1: Robert as well, like including her all.
Speaker 2: So it's like yeah, very a lot.
Speaker 3: And like again the great, the great contradiction, and like
Speaker 3: I don't think I don't think we get the full
Speaker 3: again that this is saved for this bathtub scene you
Speaker 3: brought up, so like we don't get the full extent
Speaker 3: of the truth, the truth of it, right, Like we
Speaker 3: don't know Aris was gonna blow the whole thing up
Speaker 3: at this at this point, but like we do, we
Speaker 3: are getting the you know the sort of like just
Speaker 3: the the sort of affirmation of what did was heroic,
Speaker 3: like it's it's it's it's true. Like in the end,
Speaker 3: it's like that is something you would say a hero
Speaker 3: did play the evil king to to to save millions.
Speaker 3: And and again it's it's that sort of like sense
Speaker 3: of kind of like cosmic injustice that he has where
Speaker 3: he's like, you know, he's he's like, I'm I think
Speaker 3: he's talking about Tyrian or something. He's like, I'm I'm
Speaker 3: loved for something I didn't do and I'm hated for
Speaker 3: something the one the good thing I did, or something
Speaker 3: like that, Like I think he says that to her
Speaker 3: at that point. And and again just and George does
Speaker 3: this other thing so brilliantly in the scene where it's like, uh,
Speaker 3: just again, to feed the to feed the subversion, I
Speaker 3: think there's there's something where it's like he says something
Speaker 3: just atrocious to Catlin and she's like, is there anyone
Speaker 3: as beautiful and vile as this man? It's like it's
Speaker 3: just again that same thing of like the the probably
Speaker 3: at this point, Jeoffrey is the biggest and public enemy
Speaker 3: number one, but like Jamie's at this point not far
Speaker 3: down the list. And so just to again like being
Speaker 3: I'm able to escape the fact that he looks like
Speaker 3: somebody who should be French charming and and is so
Speaker 3: the opposite. So anyway, I do think I do think
Speaker 3: of that clash of King's chapter first. I think that's
Speaker 3: where you also get the.
Speaker 1: There are no men because there are two, because there
Speaker 1: are two, because you're because you're talking about the last one,
Speaker 1: which is the last one, because the one before, like
Speaker 1: when she goes down and he admits what happened. He's
Speaker 1: also denying the the catspot dagger stuff and she denied,
Speaker 1: he denies it, and she believes them, and like she's
Speaker 1: almost conflicted about believing him. And that's sort of like
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, like he he's and you believe him too,
Speaker 1: Like he's giving so much that like, and.
Speaker 3: He's also corroborating Tarrian. It's also corroborating Tyrian side and
Speaker 3: ruining Bailish in her head, right because because she's like,
Speaker 3: why would Peter lie about this? Like you know, so
Speaker 3: it's really just throwing a again, like he has he
Speaker 3: has no reason to be dishonest. It's another just fascinating
Speaker 3: aspect of the character where he's just like he owns
Speaker 3: up to his nonsense, like even when she's him about
Speaker 3: like is Jeoffrey R. Child he's like, come on, lady,
Speaker 3: Like you wouldn't be asking if you didn't know already,
Speaker 3: and like he owns up to it. He's not not
Speaker 3: playing that game. And it's it's a very their dynamic. Yeah,
Speaker 3: their dynamic is super cool in that and in those
Speaker 3: chapters where they interact. But but yeah, I guess you know,
Speaker 3: just to go go to your like original point, I
Speaker 3: think to get the full story of what happened in
Speaker 3: King's Landing that day was it's almost like vindicating because
Speaker 3: you're probably even as a show, you're probably starting to
Speaker 3: like this guy more as you're you're watching him. Just
Speaker 3: get the crappy out of him. He's already lost his
Speaker 3: hand and and it's it's just so perfectly placed in
Speaker 3: the in the pace how supposed to feel about Jamie
Speaker 3: because it's, you know, he's so broken, similarly to being
Speaker 3: in the cell. He's got nothing left to lose, Like
Speaker 3: like I don't I don't need to play this this
Speaker 3: this uh this game game of through it, Like I
Speaker 3: I don't we did it. He's like, I don't need
Speaker 3: to do I don't need to be a bailish or
Speaker 3: a varis like my my infrument is not that valuable
Speaker 3: in the end, like it's it's just me, like and
Speaker 3: and I think he has somebody who, you know, he
Speaker 3: learns to you know, trust, somebody like Brion and and
Speaker 3: it's sort of confronted with this very different type of
Speaker 3: presence in his life. And and yeah, it reveals it
Speaker 3: just compels him to to be that way. And and
Speaker 3: there's probably like a lot of different ways to look
Speaker 3: at it, whether it's like delirium from the pain or whatever,
Speaker 3: or the situation and whatever, or just like the need
Speaker 3: for this new person did not He's like, I can't
Speaker 3: have her think of me the way the way everyone
Speaker 3: else does. Yeah, and I don't know which I assume
Speaker 3: that's up for debate, like which which degree you think
Speaker 3: is the stronger one, But it's it's super fascinating, and
Speaker 3: it end to end that to end that sort of
Speaker 3: thing of like you know, stop calling me that my
Speaker 3: name is Jamie. Like it's just this like unburdening of
Speaker 3: the character this this this again like fortress he built
Speaker 3: around himself to appear one way. He now wants to
Speaker 3: be something else, at least to this person.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's it's it's uh, it's beautiful it's beautifully said,
Speaker 1: It's a beautiful moment, beautifully acted. You know, I was
Speaker 1: gonna ask earlier when coming into this, I was gonna
Speaker 1: ask you what your favorite acting moments are from Nicola,
Speaker 1: And then I was like, it's kind of a useless
Speaker 1: question one because he's incredible always.
Speaker 3: Actually, actually, I think I do have an answer.
Speaker 2: Oh, I want to hear it, I really do.
Speaker 3: We're fast, we're fast forwarding. But it is it is
Speaker 3: the end of season seven when he walks away with Circy. Oh,
Speaker 3: it's great, it's great, like like that scene. Oh, it's
Speaker 3: and of course it's him and Elena that I think
Speaker 3: that I think might be a top fiver of the series.
Speaker 3: But because it's so her based, uh, I think, I think.
Speaker 3: I I think of the season seven ending a lot,
Speaker 3: and when when it came on, like I remember, like
Speaker 3: like literally had chills because I think because we were
Speaker 3: so like on the edge of what we knew was
Speaker 3: gonna happen. I mean, we were quite quite what we
Speaker 3: knew could happen, so like there, yeah, there was like
Speaker 3: real peril in that moment. I remember, I have no
Speaker 3: idea what's going to happen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I flinched when the Mountain stepped to him. I
Speaker 2: was I literally thought it was on. I did not
Speaker 2: know what was going to happen in that scene. It
Speaker 2: was terrifying. No, it's a great moment that.
Speaker 3: Joe Otti's cooking and and and just his I don't
Speaker 3: believe you Andy, and he leaves, Oh my god, Oh yeah,
Speaker 3: I believed literally blew me away.
Speaker 2: I will also give a shout out to uh nightig Bread.
Speaker 1: The final season is uh beautifully acted by both of them,
Speaker 1: by everybody who was.
Speaker 3: If they had all died, they had all died in
Speaker 3: that battle, that would have been.
Speaker 2: Would have been a great ending for them.
Speaker 1: Uh. We could dive into like a thirty minute side
Speaker 1: tant litigating endings.
Speaker 2: We'll table that. I think I want to.
Speaker 1: I think an endings revisited, UH side discussion should be
Speaker 1: done at some point. But just because we're trying to
Speaker 1: keep all these short, do you have or shorter by
Speaker 1: our standard? Do you have uh Jamie highlights that you
Speaker 1: think are more like personal your fandom, Like Jamie highlights
Speaker 1: that that are not necessarily like the things that people
Speaker 1: would write down for him, but just like things that
Speaker 1: stick out for you, even comedically or even with other people,
Speaker 1: like what are the moments that you go back to
Speaker 1: the most with them. I think it could be on
Speaker 1: the book too. It could be something that the show
Speaker 1: didn't do, if you want to do that as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's probably It's it's kind of like sad because
Speaker 3: I probably don't remember the books as well in that regard.
Speaker 2: I think you've got you've got time, I know, right,
Speaker 2: I know there's plenty of time to revisit.
Speaker 3: There's there's a moment at the end because they're all
Speaker 3: going to be show. Probably I'll give the book one again.
Speaker 3: Sorry for Sorry for the spoiler again, it's been out
Speaker 3: a while. There's at the end of Feast for Crows
Speaker 3: there's a moment where, because so much of that book
Speaker 3: is him building sort of the doubt, the fracturing of
Speaker 3: his relationship with Circey. Right, they literally he literally gets
Speaker 3: out of town because they're not things are not going
Speaker 3: well between them, and uh, there's the moment when she's
Speaker 3: taken in by the high Sparrow and stuff, and she
Speaker 3: sends a letter to him to like come help her.
Speaker 3: He's like, Jamie, I need you. There's nobody else who
Speaker 3: can do this. Nobody else. I trust nobody, like nobody
Speaker 3: like you. And he puts the letter in the fire,
Speaker 3: and that's that's kind of how his arc ends, like
Speaker 3: like that's how his story ends. For Fees for Crows,
Speaker 3: I think is such an underrated novel and so many
Speaker 3: storylines and on ship like that where it's like it's
Speaker 3: like oh oh oh, like like it's things that like
Speaker 3: if you can imagine them in the show, they'd be
Speaker 3: like holy crap, like like the Dornish plotline ending with
Speaker 3: fire and blood like that, like so many like mic
Speaker 3: drop endings, And that was kind of Jamie's mic drop
Speaker 3: ending for that book is is this Circe pleading? And
Speaker 3: he's just like and he's like, any three is it
Speaker 3: in the fire? So that's that's one book moment I
Speaker 3: really think about a lot and show. Ones that really
Speaker 3: cracked me up are him Andarrian reminiscing about their cousin.
Speaker 3: I think the.
Speaker 1: Like what is the names like Ormond or something or
Speaker 1: or well I don't know, or well I think because.
Speaker 3: Ville it could be. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's a
Speaker 3: really smash one day.
Speaker 1: Yeah, their gold together, they're great together.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Jamie. The training sessions I think about a lot
Speaker 3: and and uh, man, yeah, just everything about him and Brion,
Speaker 3: especially especially what he gives her keeper. I think about
Speaker 3: that a lot and and just sort of yeah, I
Speaker 3: remember season four opening with that the milking dice, and
Speaker 3: and then that scene with Taiwan giving him the sword,
Speaker 3: and he's kind of just like, you know, like it's
Speaker 3: it's just so many great things happen with him, in particular,
Speaker 3: just the sort of melting away of his no world right,
Speaker 3: like he's it's like, yes, yes, he he was always
Speaker 3: Dad's precious son, even when he let that down, and
Speaker 3: that really just begins to dissipate, you know, through that season,
Speaker 3: and so like that. It stuff his relationship with Surc,
Speaker 3: and I guess the the Terrian relationship doesn't get the
Speaker 3: complications that the book gives it it. They leave it
Speaker 3: pretty pretty sweet. I think that scene too, when he
Speaker 3: lets him out and then yeah, I know, I know
Speaker 3: you said we'll do. Man, I'm probably leaving off so
Speaker 3: many things that I shouldn't be, but I I even
Speaker 3: though he's not in it. I I sobbed like a
Speaker 3: baby when Brian is filling out his pages.
Speaker 1: Oh well, when I said, I don't want to do
Speaker 1: ending discords. It's not because I don't want to.
Speaker 2: It's right.
Speaker 1: It will take so long to talk about the Brion
Speaker 1: romance and and the show having it and then did
Speaker 1: they walk okay back back?
Speaker 2: Is it try? Is it toxic? Is it? It's just
Speaker 2: so much But that, separately from what led to it,
Speaker 2: that is a perfect scene.
Speaker 3: I mean, like just that much.
Speaker 1: And I'm glad you brought it up because it I
Speaker 1: hate to get the little bastard, well, I was gonna
Speaker 1: I hate to give the little bastard any credit. But
Speaker 1: the the Jeoffrey with the book is maybe my favorite
Speaker 1: Geoffrey scene. And it's a great Jamie scene too, of uncle.
Speaker 3: It's like it's just not only not only is it
Speaker 3: so mean and and Jamie has the perfect answer, right, like, man,
Speaker 3: there's still time and uh and and not only is
Speaker 3: that always funny, but it's it's especially funny because now
Speaker 3: Jeoffrey has technically spoiled both spinoff shows, but yeah, openly
Speaker 3: and specifically yeah, and and doing so gleefully right, Like
Speaker 3: it's almost like he knows, he's he knows these pissing
Speaker 3: people off outside of the characters, He's like it's fascinating.
Speaker 2: Catching up on HBO. Are you looking back at the
Speaker 2: original show exactly exactly. It's it's brutal, it's brutal, but.
Speaker 3: But yeah, like pairing, pairing those scenes together, was it
Speaker 3: like in your when you in your head or if
Speaker 3: you get a very clever edit of you know that
Speaker 3: kind of stuff. I I love that ending. You know, again,
Speaker 3: there's a lot of there's a lot of messy metal
Speaker 3: ground and and some things that I think have value. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: I think I think there are ways you can look
Speaker 3: at the way Jamie's ark ultimately ends with him in
Speaker 3: the world, but and that that have merit where when
Speaker 3: maybe or you know, maybe there were other more satisfying ways,
Speaker 3: but just at least that moment for because it's also
Speaker 3: such a mass moment for Brion to write those pages.
Speaker 3: That's like therapy for her, right like two to unburden
Speaker 3: that I mean again talking about great actors, like the
Speaker 3: way Gwendolyn does that same with the tears in her
Speaker 3: eyes doing like it's just you know, it's so it's
Speaker 3: kind of like I really love that the show when
Speaker 3: it's like here's the last word on Jen, I love that.
Speaker 3: It's a beautiful scene.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's to tie it in with you know,
Speaker 2: your note.
Speaker 1: The threat of this whole conversation has been perception, right,
Speaker 1: and how he is a creature who I feel we're
Speaker 1: just like other guys in this world. I feel like
Speaker 1: his own father is obviously entirely motivated by a perception.
Speaker 2: Turian's whole life is kind of like that damon.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: Years prior in House of the Dragon, I've talked a
Speaker 1: lot about how he is a character that's so aware
Speaker 1: of his role and where he fits and how he
Speaker 1: doesn't fit, and what his brother thinks of him, and
Speaker 1: that Jamie, even though he isn't around to know it.
Speaker 1: When when it's all said and done, you know, Brion,
Speaker 1: she she called it.
Speaker 2: She called it like she saw it.
Speaker 1: She spoke truth and the facts are there, But like
Speaker 1: she doesn't say, like the kings Slayer, you know, was
Speaker 1: a sister efing this that who died because he couldn't
Speaker 1: pick a side. She keeps it at he died in
Speaker 1: service of protecting his queen, like and that it's a
Speaker 1: very just like it's generous, it's it's a compassionate read.
Speaker 1: It doesn't betray things that she was told in confidence,
Speaker 1: but it indicates Uh, it's not neutral. It's not neutral,
Speaker 1: it's it's an act of care. Like it's just uh,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't have to overplay its hand, you know,
Speaker 1: the people that know. No, you know, I'm sure she can.
Speaker 1: I'm sure she can talk to Tyrian about him if
Speaker 1: she wants. But those are those are things for her.
Speaker 3: I just read it as sort of like for her,
Speaker 3: it's like a forgiveness flash, like self forgiveness thing. That's
Speaker 3: how I always twik m. Whereas like I'm gonna unburden
Speaker 3: that experience for me. But it is also just again fascinating,
Speaker 3: Like you said, like Taiwan Lanister's only thing is legacy, right,
Speaker 3: And it's like, in the end, how will Tewyn be remembered?
Speaker 3: And I'm gonna say probably, I doubt with what's gone on,
Speaker 3: there's too much to remember about it. Like I don't think.
Speaker 3: I think you know, people will be like, oh yeah,
Speaker 3: Taiwan Lanister. But also you know, we had white Walkers
Speaker 3: and then this lady blew up the seat with her dragon.
Speaker 3: But Jamie Lanister's legacy is in pages of this sacred
Speaker 3: book and will be that for the generations to follow.
Speaker 3: As long as wester Ross still stands and Kingsguard still exists,
Speaker 3: like the the the the commendations and feats of Kings
Speaker 3: will be remembered and and and again. Like yeah, like Brian,
Speaker 3: Brian made the choice to do that in a way
Speaker 3: that isn't slanderous or anything, but is is yeah, just
Speaker 3: straight up, straight up honest. I I just I love
Speaker 3: the little things when she's like he like completely routed
Speaker 3: them like the undefeated Army of the Like she's she's
Speaker 3: like even hyping him right like and it's and it's
Speaker 3: like it's a really like beautiful thing of forgiveness, I
Speaker 3: think in the end, and and just sort of like
Speaker 3: she felt like she she she kind of owed that
Speaker 3: much at least. And I always laugh at one of
Speaker 3: the memes around that time when the finale aird and
Speaker 3: you know, obviously a lot of people had a lot
Speaker 3: of things to say, but but one of the one
Speaker 3: of them is her writing in the book and then
Speaker 3: it's the screenshot from me and girls like this, So yeah,
Speaker 3: I uh yeah, I love.
Speaker 1: The point that you brought up about Taiwan, about Taiwan
Speaker 1: with Legacy, because Taiwan's intro scene is a Jamie scene,
Speaker 1: and in the show it's played so perfectly. It's when
Speaker 1: you get one of my favorite line deliveries, maybe ever,
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, a Game of Thrones and maybe
Speaker 1: in anything ever television or film, which is big knife
Speaker 1: in hand.
Speaker 2: There's not an opinion, it's a fact, like.
Speaker 3: That's gonna be That's gonna be under tombstone.
Speaker 2: Honestly, it might because Jamie really thinks he has something there.
Speaker 2: He thinks he got dad.
Speaker 1: When he's like, so the line does cons and Taiwand
Speaker 1: is like, don't you ever try to get snarky with me?
Speaker 2: Yeah, don't you ever?
Speaker 1: And and it, but it puts Jamie under the thumb,
Speaker 1: like really early in the story of what that means.
Speaker 1: And obviously the books are not complete, so if we
Speaker 1: just take it as show endings, it's like, what is
Speaker 1: Taiwan's legacy the mad Well, you know, they'll probably call
Speaker 1: Denaris the mad Queen, but like unfortunately, but you know,
Speaker 1: you had the crazy incession, his daughter who blew up
Speaker 1: the stept and was an insane by the end, basically
Speaker 1: terrorist of a tyrant woman with a zombie protector. So like,
Speaker 1: horrible mark on your legacy. You have the controversial, but
Speaker 1: you know, we'll probably be doing better going forward hand
Speaker 1: of the king's son. But you hated him and he
Speaker 1: killed you, so that's a mark against legacy. The only
Speaker 1: good thing that you're left with really to your name
Speaker 1: is the son that you thought was an idiot who
Speaker 1: really cared about knighthood and only ever had knighthood either
Speaker 1: weaponized against him for his own reputation, or was a
Speaker 1: pawn in Tywan's machinations, like Aris using Jamie's knighthood to
Speaker 1: fuck with Taiwan, you.
Speaker 3: Know, being a politics of it all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Like Jamie's knighthood was always tied to like,
Speaker 1: oh it was just nice knighthood, but his position on
Speaker 1: the King's guard was always a an era of like
Speaker 1: obviously he earned it by skill and he probably would
Speaker 1: have gotten on anyway, but like, was I just named
Speaker 1: here to bring ruin to the house And that is
Speaker 1: finally shaken, I think by the end, and that there's
Speaker 1: no mention of him. He stands on his own. You know,
Speaker 1: do you know how hard it is to be your
Speaker 1: own man?
Speaker 3: When you're telling me, man.
Speaker 2: A new meme has truly been born, and it is
Speaker 2: we're gonna get mileage out of that one. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: think my last question, oh go ahead, yeah, the last question.
Speaker 3: No, I was I was really just gonna say, like,
Speaker 3: you know, there probably will have to be Jamie Part two,
Speaker 3: because yes, I think there's there's so many like family
Speaker 3: dynamics that or and like just the reason of why
Speaker 3: for so much of him, you know, like he only
Speaker 3: really went to kings Landing to stay with Mercy, like
Speaker 3: he probably would have been forced to stay in Casterly Rock.
Speaker 3: But you know, the very is very I don't know
Speaker 3: even know what we're to use for it, what adjective
Speaker 3: to use for their relationship, because again, you know there's
Speaker 3: where it's like it's one of the more honest love
Speaker 3: affairs in in the the universe of Westers, and so
Speaker 3: it's like.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Yet whatever you want to call it. Because again in
Speaker 3: that Catlan scene where where he's like he's like, you know,
Speaker 3: I've only ever been with my sister, but honorable Ned
Speaker 3: went behind your back, like like there's just always there, always,
Speaker 3: you know, there's always an angle. So like there's a
Speaker 3: lot to talk about. Still, I don't want I don't
Speaker 3: want people to think we got like we are these
Speaker 3: like nitty gritty.
Speaker 2: Character.
Speaker 1: The way they are, We're definitely gonna have to do
Speaker 1: a part two. You're right, there's so much, there's so
Speaker 1: much to dig into with just like his changes. There's
Speaker 1: stuff that like, there's thoughts that I had that like
Speaker 1: we just can't back into an hour of like how
Speaker 1: how uncomfortable it is to see especially like in the
Speaker 1: show when he's back in the King's Guard Gold, especially
Speaker 1: like for the wedding and stuff like it just looks,
Speaker 1: you know, like short haired Jamie and that armor. He
Speaker 1: looks like a prisoner, even though he's walking around with power. Again,
Speaker 1: he looks like a prisoner, Like it's such a weird
Speaker 1: dynamic when he does.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he does. He's been changed.
Speaker 1: Well and well and on a real one. And then
Speaker 1: well then we'll close on something fun. I'll think of
Speaker 1: something fun while you're talking, because I asked this to
Speaker 1: Andy about Brian and it was and ended up with
Speaker 1: a funny answer. I asked Andy, what challenges you about Brian?
Speaker 1: You know you love this character so much, what really
Speaker 1: challenges you? And Andy's answer was book Brand's kind of dumb,
Speaker 1: which I think is a great edd Like she's just
Speaker 1: academically written to be not as smart and capable in
Speaker 1: some ways, as as as Gwendolen's. Is this something that
Speaker 1: rubs you the wrong way about Jamie, like in a
Speaker 1: real way, or something that you're like, come on, man
Speaker 1: like or or or something that that.
Speaker 3: This is certainly a book thing. I can't remember the
Speaker 3: extent to the show. Does this? It probably does, but
Speaker 3: I just don't remember. So I'm gonna angle it more
Speaker 3: towards the book. He has as of yet in the
Speaker 3: book accepted it was the wrong thing to try to
Speaker 3: kill a child.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you may have.
Speaker 3: You may have watched the episodes more recently than I have,
Speaker 3: because obviously the premiere of season eight as with an
Speaker 3: all timer, great brand Jamie kind of like Showdown with
Speaker 3: the the Fergies London Bridge mean version of That's so,
Speaker 3: I don't remember if they really if he's really like
Speaker 3: sorry man, I think he does. I think he doesn't.
Speaker 2: He apologizes, I don't remember what he says, but he
Speaker 2: does apologize.
Speaker 3: But I feel like in the books, in the books
Speaker 3: he's gone on this like very significant character arc slash
Speaker 3: reveal slash whatever is like the right word for it.
Speaker 3: But he doesn't. I don't if he's really gotten to
Speaker 3: the place of like, yeah, like it's like, yeah, he's
Speaker 3: lying about it. He owes up to it, but I
Speaker 3: don't think he's quite calculated that it was wrong to
Speaker 3: try to kill the kid. But then you know, I
Speaker 3: don't I don't know, Like the currency with which people
Speaker 3: do things in this world is different, right, Like I
Speaker 3: think that's you know, the one of the things that
Speaker 3: always bugs me about sort of the way Danariss looked
Speaker 3: upon when she like cutes Harley's it's like she didn't
Speaker 3: do anything someone else wouldn't have done, Like someone else
Speaker 3: would have done it the exact same thing she did
Speaker 3: it with the dragon. And you know, the terms of
Speaker 3: the terms of you know, processing and negotiating and making
Speaker 3: you know, what people are willing to forgive are very
Speaker 3: different in Westero. So maybe maybe this this guy can't
Speaker 3: even imagine that, you know, I had kill him because
Speaker 3: you know he's gonna reveal a secret, right. But I
Speaker 3: would say that's probably the most challenging thing is just
Speaker 3: for as much as all the good he does, you
Speaker 3: can't really escape the fact that right right off the
Speaker 3: bat he tried to kid.
Speaker 1: Yeah it's not great, uh, but it does make for
Speaker 1: great TV, and I think that he's why a lot
Speaker 1: of people tuned in for the next Is it.
Speaker 3: One of the best, Is it one of the best
Speaker 3: pilot it kind of has, it has to be.
Speaker 2: It has to be.
Speaker 1: If not the best, it's insane. And his line delivery
Speaker 1: is perfect. Of things I do for love is perfect? Right,
Speaker 1: Last question, just to be on on something light and
Speaker 1: and again unique to you. What is a Jamie Lanister uh,
Speaker 1: piece of merchandise that does not exist that you would
Speaker 1: like to will into existence? What is something that he
Speaker 1: has that you're like, I would wear that, I would
Speaker 1: cosplay that. I want that prop. I want the thing
Speaker 1: because I I you know, my mind for Jamie is
Speaker 1: very easy, but I think it already exists. Is that
Speaker 1: I would just like to have the gold hand like
Speaker 1: as like a shelf.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good one. Hm hmm. I really I
Speaker 3: really like him when he's in Lanister arm. I think
Speaker 3: there's something really cool about that look in particular. So
Speaker 3: maybe if I would going on a cosplay angle, that'd
Speaker 3: be kind of cool. But then I just like a
Speaker 3: Lanister soldier maybe, and maybe that's less great. I think
Speaker 3: I think there's one thing that I do think is
Speaker 3: kind of cool again, and in sort of the way
Speaker 3: and where you can say, like maybe this is a
Speaker 3: reclamation as opposed to like keeping it, uh, sort of
Speaker 3: like tied to someone who we don't like. But I'd
Speaker 3: like that he uses I like that he uses the
Speaker 3: other Widow's whale. I don't know if he renames it,
Speaker 3: but I like that he's sort of when Jeffrey is dead,
Speaker 3: he sort of and he gives it was keeper way
Speaker 3: he takes that one, and and there's something there's something
Speaker 3: in the end that I kind of like about. You know,
Speaker 3: he knew that sort came from and it sort of
Speaker 3: felt right being with somebody who kind of understood the
Speaker 3: you know, at least had had a respect for the Starks,
Speaker 3: you know, and and sort of took it away from
Speaker 3: being Jeoffrey sword. So so now thinking kind of thinking
Speaker 3: maybe that sword would be cool because I think they
Speaker 3: made like an oath keeper.
Speaker 1: But there's oath keepers and there's book oathkeeper.
Speaker 2: I think Andy has book Oathkeeper.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: That's a great point.
Speaker 3: I like the ruby pommel also on that sword. It's
Speaker 3: very cool.
Speaker 2: It's sick. No.
Speaker 1: I love that point too, because it's like cat it's
Speaker 1: not like him and Cat were close, obviously not, but
Speaker 1: like him and Brion fulfill something.
Speaker 2: For her or try to, they spiritually try to do right.
Speaker 1: And so that day that yeah, like at least you
Speaker 1: know that there's like that, the remnants of Ice are
Speaker 1: carried with you know, people doing their best, you know.
Speaker 3: Versus and and then he knights he knights Brian with
Speaker 3: that sort knights Brian. So so maybe I'll go with that.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I will not call it Jeoffrey's sword
Speaker 3: Widow's will, but I would think of it as jas
Speaker 3: sword that he united Brion with.
Speaker 2: And also not for nothing, not for nothing, this could
Speaker 2: be its own episode and maybe we'll you know what,
Speaker 2: let's hold me to this.
Speaker 1: If you're watching listening, we at some point should get
Speaker 1: Ken and maybe whoever else wants to come and do
Speaker 1: a group discussion about how awesome it would be if
Speaker 1: we had a robust like peak Hasbro Star Wars, Ice
Speaker 1: and fire finger line.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because the fact that we don't like them have
Speaker 3: like are we talking like black series level?
Speaker 1: Like well, I'm talking like black Well black series level
Speaker 1: right now, which would be you know, bleak, Like.
Speaker 2: I mean, like give me eight Star Wars.
Speaker 1: Now that there's that many characters, like, there should be
Speaker 1: a Jamie throughout the seasons. You should be able to
Speaker 1: get Jamie red Armor with widows Will, Jamie King's Guard,
Speaker 1: Jamie Leather, fatigues, Jamie mud Jamie.
Speaker 3: This is if this is yeah, if this is high,
Speaker 3: if this is high like High Tide Star Wars action figuring,
Speaker 3: we probably have Jamie like behind the scenes, Jamie with
Speaker 3: the fake prosthetic and his real hand. We probably have
Speaker 3: all all, as.
Speaker 1: You said, behind the scenes. So you said behind the scenes.
Speaker 1: I will close this by saying, and then then we
Speaker 1: will go. I will close this by saying, the hit
Speaker 1: clip of Peter and Nicola I dancing into the trial
Speaker 1: is one of the best clips of anything.
Speaker 2: It's so so joyful doing the little dances and everything
Speaker 2: like it is. It's the best. It's the best.
Speaker 1: Yeh that I can't wait to talk about Tyrian on
Speaker 1: one of these Yeah, this has been so much fun, man.
Speaker 1: And then yeah, like you said, we'll have to do
Speaker 1: a part two. I'll have to do some Jamie follow ups.
Speaker 1: If anybody has specific things that you're like, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: there's so much Jami stuff. You should have talked about this,
Speaker 1: or you should talk about this, or talk more about
Speaker 1: his battle highlights, talk more about his career.
Speaker 2: Trust me, we want to and we will.
Speaker 1: Leave those in the comments. Nicky's links will be down below.
Speaker 1: This is the Fast Plugs version. Nicky's links are down below.
Speaker 1: My links are down below. Ken's links are down below.
Speaker 2: Boom, there you go. You don't care about any of that.
Speaker 2: We're gonna get right out of here. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: I have been all the in. This has been Nicky,
Speaker 2: and we will catch you next time. Right here, I'll
Speaker 2: cashually talk about