WEBVTT 1 00:00:11.720 --> 00:00:14.439 So I'm sold to Epicureanism, I think is better than 2 00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:15.279 than stoicism. 3 00:00:15.919 --> 00:00:20.640 We've all been to undergrad grad school, put our toes 4 00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:24.920 into every philosophy there is, and it happens we're coming 5 00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:29.640 to right now January twenty twenty six. We've figured it out. 6 00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:33.399 Yeah, it's weird as stoicism is so popular. But then, 7 00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:35.560 I mean, I guess the reason I was trying to think, 8 00:00:35.679 --> 00:00:36.920 Like you know, when I was reading this, I was 9 00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:39.280 trying to imagine, like why isn't there a revival of 10 00:00:39.320 --> 00:00:42.240 like self help books that are epicurean as opposed to stoic, 11 00:00:42.320 --> 00:00:44.880 Like why is stoicism getting all the attention? 12 00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:46.159 Well, Eric, you. 13 00:00:46.200 --> 00:00:50.439 Converted to stoicism last episode, So are you are you switching. 14 00:00:50.280 --> 00:00:52.119 Or or is this or are you sticking with it? 15 00:00:52.119 --> 00:00:53.200 It does not do it for you? 16 00:00:53.719 --> 00:00:55.920 No, I'm going to try it out first. Well, like 17 00:00:56.399 --> 00:01:01.640 I mentioned last time, stoicism was a major inspiration behind 18 00:01:02.679 --> 00:01:07.000 the guy who came up with CE cognitive therapy and 19 00:01:07.159 --> 00:01:11.920 cognitive behavioral therapy CBT, which are like the gold standard 20 00:01:12.359 --> 00:01:18.480 kinds of therapies, along with dialectical behavior therapy, which came 21 00:01:18.519 --> 00:01:21.239 from somewhere else. And I haven't looked into the philosophical 22 00:01:21.319 --> 00:01:25.120 roots of that one. I think it's Stoicism's emotional control 23 00:01:25.239 --> 00:01:32.079 component that seem to be the most inspiring. Yeah, I 24 00:01:32.079 --> 00:01:35.400 don't have any plans of I think. I think Stoicism, 25 00:01:35.760 --> 00:01:38.959 like the data that they've gathered after having run this 26 00:01:39.079 --> 00:01:43.599 Stoicism Week thing for like ten years plus, seems to 27 00:01:43.640 --> 00:01:48.680 be pretty positive. And again, like I think there's a 28 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:52.000 lot of elements of like a pan therapeutic effect where 29 00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:56.439 if you're just really reflecting on your moods and paying 30 00:01:56.439 --> 00:01:58.640 more attention to yourself and like you're going to get 31 00:01:58.640 --> 00:02:02.879 benefits anyway, and like stoicism may just be one route 32 00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:07.400 to that. But I don't know, like it does epicureanism 33 00:02:07.519 --> 00:02:11.759 have that sort of self care kind of element to it. 34 00:02:11.719 --> 00:02:13.159 Like, yes, I think it does. 35 00:02:13.240 --> 00:02:16.479 Even that Fuco kind of saw in Stoicism. It seemed 36 00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:20.199 later in his career he seemed to like be inspired 37 00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:24.520 to go on that care for the self direction with Stoicism. 38 00:02:24.639 --> 00:02:26.840 I don't know what it is, but our audience whenever 39 00:02:26.879 --> 00:02:30.560 we say bring up CBT, which I think I don't 40 00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:32.439 I don't know what it is, even you guys talk 41 00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:36.159 about it every time, there's a very there's a very 42 00:02:36.199 --> 00:02:39.719 passionate discourse in the comments about the some people who 43 00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:43.360 hate CBT and some people who think it's it's I 44 00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:47.719 don't know if anyone extols it like unreservedly, but everyone's 45 00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:50.560 got a strong opinion on CBT and the other on 46 00:02:50.680 --> 00:02:55.159 dialectical something something. Oh DBT, All right, so there's opinions. 47 00:02:55.400 --> 00:02:57.560 Well, how does that one? How does that one come out? 48 00:02:57.840 --> 00:02:58.400 People want to. 49 00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:03.080 Yeah, DBT is like an alternative. 50 00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:03.680 I don't know. 51 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:08.680 When we're comparing the therapy schools Greek philosophy, the Greek 52 00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:13.800 philosophy schools are basically having the same argument, which philosophy, 53 00:03:14.319 --> 00:03:16.879 which method is best. It's just that their therapies also 54 00:03:16.919 --> 00:03:19.759 come with an entire cosmology and like an ordering of 55 00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:21.120 the human person along with it. 56 00:03:21.639 --> 00:03:25.159 I want to make a claim that I think Epicureanism 57 00:03:25.240 --> 00:03:30.919 and Stoicism are not totally incompatible. I think stoics think 58 00:03:31.159 --> 00:03:34.199 Stoics will want to reject a lot of things Epicureans say, 59 00:03:34.680 --> 00:03:37.599 But I feel like Epicureans would not necessarily reject everything 60 00:03:37.639 --> 00:03:41.159 that the Stoic says, especially when it comes to conduct 61 00:03:41.240 --> 00:03:45.120 like human well being. Like I felt, I was struck 62 00:03:45.199 --> 00:03:48.759 by the fact that it seems to me like they 63 00:03:48.840 --> 00:03:53.520 want similar outcomes. This I felt like I was reading 64 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:59.560 the Epicurean a case for happiness as a kind of 65 00:03:59.560 --> 00:04:03.039 trinquil to be not that dissimilar than like what the 66 00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:07.039 Stoics say matters. It's just that obviously the way that 67 00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:10.039 they get there are very different. And certainly the thing 68 00:04:10.039 --> 00:04:13.319 that I liked much more about Epicureanism is again they 69 00:04:13.400 --> 00:04:16.360 emphasize relationality and friendship and other people, and I think 70 00:04:16.399 --> 00:04:19.399 that that's a huge plus for the Epicurean school. 71 00:04:20.360 --> 00:04:23.519 I think Epicureanism is logically correct. 72 00:04:24.040 --> 00:04:24.519 Yeah. 73 00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:29.399 Yeah, like some Stoics were partly Epicurean, I don't think 74 00:04:29.399 --> 00:04:30.279 they're too different. 75 00:04:31.959 --> 00:04:34.279 Well, they disagree on the virtues, and we can get 76 00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:37.319 into the things they disagree on in detail. But let 77 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:41.399 me say this, all of all of practical philosophy, whether 78 00:04:41.480 --> 00:04:47.199 it's Christian or Stoic, or Buddhist or Epicureanism or even 79 00:04:47.199 --> 00:04:50.480 the Platonists, really all of them agree that if you 80 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:55.319 train your mind to control your desires, you'll be happier, 81 00:04:55.519 --> 00:04:57.879 and if the other way around, you won't be happy. 82 00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:01.040 So three thousand years of philosophy, all our years of 83 00:05:01.800 --> 00:05:04.560 studying some shit in grad school. All you actually need 84 00:05:05.240 --> 00:05:08.560 is your mind to control your desire, or, to put 85 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:11.279 it in other terms, if you set your mind to 86 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:17.199 giving negative feedback on desire instead of positive feedback. This 87 00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:20.079 is what the wisest people have all agreed is how 88 00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:20.639 to be happy. 89 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:25.000 Yeah, I agree. So it's not just stoicism and epicureanism 90 00:05:25.079 --> 00:05:27.000 that are compatible in that way. You're right, it's like 91 00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:31.000 the whole history of moral and the goal practical thinking. 92 00:05:31.079 --> 00:05:34.279 It's you're right. I think they all converge on some 93 00:05:34.439 --> 00:05:38.199 version of that. They obviously disagree with the underlying metaphysics 94 00:05:38.279 --> 00:05:42.839 or epistemology that make that possible, and therefore also probably 95 00:05:42.839 --> 00:05:45.199 disagree about some of the methods. But I think you're right. 96 00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:47.920 They agree on that outcome, or on that being the 97 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:50.879 goal to like temper your desires. 98 00:05:51.079 --> 00:05:54.480 We kind of agree generally about like the outcome that 99 00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:57.800 should be happening, but like nobody agrees how to get there, 100 00:05:58.199 --> 00:06:05.360 and everyone fights passionately defending their point of view and 101 00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:08.639 how how they think they should get there, How to 102 00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:12.759 get to tranquility, how to get to emotional stability or whatever. 103 00:06:12.839 --> 00:06:19.079 The youdemonia happiness are flourishing, probably better because happiness implies 104 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:21.000 like a psychological state, which. 105 00:06:20.839 --> 00:06:22.480 None of them are talking about. 106 00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:29.920 The goal of Epicureanism is what they call ataraxia, where 107 00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:34.639 taraxia means disturbances and a means no disturbances, so it's 108 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:38.800 translated tranquility. But that's the goal, is a state of peace. 109 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:42.800 Being at ease in your in yourself, in your body, 110 00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:43.560 in who you are. 111 00:06:44.680 --> 00:06:48.439 Ye, peace of mind might be a good uh translation. 112 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:51.720 Being comfortable in your own skin, being comfortable with like yeah, 113 00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:54.319 like just like not worrying as much, right, I think 114 00:06:54.360 --> 00:06:57.439 like all those things are related as like an absence 115 00:06:57.480 --> 00:07:00.720 of disturbance, right, which to me makes sense. I feel 116 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:03.360 like a lot of I feel like Stoicism is worried 117 00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:03.920 about that too. 118 00:07:04.839 --> 00:07:05.040 Well. 119 00:07:05.079 --> 00:07:10.399 This was one difference that I noticed is that Epicureanism 120 00:07:10.600 --> 00:07:18.399 seems to be decided that like like participation in politics 121 00:07:18.600 --> 00:07:21.000 and the life of the police is like a no go, 122 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:25.839 like you should with live a kind of withdrawn life, 123 00:07:27.439 --> 00:07:30.639 and and Stoicism is actually divided on this question. This 124 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:33.839 is that Which is another difference I'll get to is 125 00:07:33.879 --> 00:07:37.600 that Epicureanism is is slightly more on the on the 126 00:07:37.639 --> 00:07:42.720 dogmatic side, or some some make that claim, whereas so 127 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:49.040 Stoics are divided on whether participating in politics is like, okay, 128 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:53.639 something that should be part of the teachings. And I 129 00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:56.360 think the general answer is like yes, as long as 130 00:07:56.399 --> 00:08:01.279 it doesn't compromise virtue, which is the most important thing 131 00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:05.680 is training up that virtue that we mentioned last time. 132 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:11.000 But for the Epicureans, right, it's more about withdrawing from 133 00:08:11.160 --> 00:08:15.519 politics and kind of living the simple life. Epicurus himself 134 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:20.120 actually had his school outside the city walls, and there's 135 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:26.040 the famous Epicurean garden there. They had the academy, the lyceum, 136 00:08:26.199 --> 00:08:29.839 the garden, and I guess just the barrel. If you're 137 00:08:29.879 --> 00:08:32.320 a cynic, you're just living in the barrel wherever you are. 138 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:33.639 And the porch. 139 00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:37.679 Yeah, the Stoa some parts some places called the Stoa 140 00:08:38.039 --> 00:08:39.799 where the Stoics got their name from. 141 00:08:40.039 --> 00:08:43.399 Epicurus is the most woke. He let women come to 142 00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:43.919 the garden. 143 00:08:44.279 --> 00:08:47.399 Yeah that's true. I heard that, and yeah, yeah it 144 00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:48.360 was egalitarian. 145 00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:50.519 If you're on the porch, how do you stop, Like 146 00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:54.080 if women are walking by you, just you're like move on, lady, 147 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:56.000 Like are they not allowed to listen? You're just out 148 00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:56.519 in public? 149 00:08:57.080 --> 00:09:00.440 Yeah, that's a good question. Well, probably the different was 150 00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:03.120 they could listen, but they can't participate, right, whereas an 151 00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:05.519 epicurea epicurean probably could. 152 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:09.480 Now, Stoicism did permit women as well. They were also 153 00:09:09.639 --> 00:09:13.799 sort of they were they were semi woke in in 154 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:19.840 was it Musonius. Here's here's the line from our last reading. 155 00:09:19.919 --> 00:09:23.600 Musonius Rufus argued in his lectures that because young girls 156 00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:25.960 have the capacity to reason just as well as boys 157 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:29.919 young boys, they too should receive a full education in philosophy. 158 00:09:30.200 --> 00:09:33.840 That's from the discourse. For in all the ways that 159 00:09:33.879 --> 00:09:36.679 matters most, there is no difference between men and women. 160 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:41.039 As a consequence, it is equally appropriate for women to 161 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:44.320 become philosophers as it is for men. That is an 162 00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:50.279 argument put forward by Musonius Rufus, who was the teacher 163 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:55.399 of Epictetus. I believe, and Epictetus is one of the 164 00:09:55.399 --> 00:10:00.120 big three later Stoics whose work actually survives well. 165 00:10:00.159 --> 00:10:01.879 I did want to go back to the point about 166 00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:05.440 withdrawing from public life, because that also stood out to 167 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:09.159 me as very interesting, and I was sort of thinking 168 00:10:09.159 --> 00:10:12.879 about it, you know, you could think about it as 169 00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:15.200 a normative claim, or you could think about it as 170 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:18.679 a descriptive claim, and I think I'm very sympathetic to 171 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:22.080 it as a descriptive claim in the sense that participating 172 00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:25.440 in like politics is probably going to make you unhappy, 173 00:10:25.960 --> 00:10:29.039 like going and trying to like I mean, we all 174 00:10:29.080 --> 00:10:30.840 know it. It's like if you withdraw from Twitter or 175 00:10:30.879 --> 00:10:34.120 withdraw from like political arguments, like being involved in those 176 00:10:34.200 --> 00:10:36.519 is bad for your mental health. So like as a 177 00:10:36.519 --> 00:10:38.960 descriptive claim, I just think that that's one hundred percent right, 178 00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:40.600 Like it's just it's not going to be good for 179 00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:43.240 you as a moral claim. As a normative claim, like 180 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:46.399 obviously there's going to be circumstances where you need to 181 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:50.279 participate in politics, So I'm not for that. But I think, 182 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:52.679 like from just the psychological claim, I mean, that doesn't 183 00:10:52.679 --> 00:10:55.600 seem that crazy to me. And and I think and 184 00:10:55.639 --> 00:11:00.559 I actually appreciate it as kind of a counter which 185 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:03.600 even sort of dovetails into some of the work that 186 00:11:03.639 --> 00:11:07.320 I've done, even in my dissertation and stuff that you know, 187 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:11.799 these views of democracy or politics that sort of glorify 188 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:15.559 like the you know, the the meeting the council as 189 00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:18.159 these important parts of like a good life. Like I've 190 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:20.519 always been skeptical of those, I'm like, that's bullshit, Like 191 00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:22.879 people going to those things is a pain in the ass, 192 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:25.159 Like it's you know, it's not It's not like some 193 00:11:25.240 --> 00:11:28.279 beautiful thing. The outcome is beautiful, the work that it 194 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:30.639 does could be beautiful, but like the actual thing itself 195 00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:32.919 is a pain in the ass. And then I guess 196 00:11:32.919 --> 00:11:35.320 the final thing I would say about it, though, is 197 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:39.320 I do think it might expose attention in the ideal 198 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:43.360 of like the epicurean community, and that just to me 199 00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:45.240 raises a question of, well, how do you make those 200 00:11:45.240 --> 00:11:48.480 communities work without politics? Like I don't understand it, Like 201 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:51.159 how are you guys deciding things? Like it's it's going 202 00:11:51.240 --> 00:11:54.039 to be unavoidable. So I don't know if he had 203 00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:55.919 if there is an answer to that that I missed, 204 00:11:55.919 --> 00:11:59.600 but I was just curious, like these communities are with 205 00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:03.480 drawing from the city, but internally they must have maybe 206 00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:06.200 they remain small enough that it's like not a big 207 00:12:06.200 --> 00:12:08.440 deal to figure those things out, and like maybe the 208 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:11.200 kind of politics he has in mind is like in 209 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:15.200 the at the scale of the city or bigger, which sucks, 210 00:12:15.399 --> 00:12:17.879 And you know, just right about that, So that was 211 00:12:17.960 --> 00:12:19.840 that was interesting, and that that's kind of how I 212 00:12:19.960 --> 00:12:21.080 process that claim. 213 00:12:21.639 --> 00:12:26.080 Well, there are no commandments obviously in Epicuranism. Yeah, so 214 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:29.399 there's no like there's nothing that says don't do politics. 215 00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:33.000 It's more like, if you're gonna dedicate your life to politics, 216 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:35.960 this is most likely gonna make you unhappy. 217 00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:37.759 Yeah, exactly, if you're trying. 218 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:40.720 To climb the ladder to to I don't know whatever 219 00:12:40.759 --> 00:12:43.000 the Greek equivalent of that, If you're trying to get 220 00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:46.159 famous and powerful, that leads to unhappiness. 221 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:48.559 Yeah. So that's why I read it more as a 222 00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:49.840 descriptive claim exactly. 223 00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:53.000 But it's not retreating from the police in terms of 224 00:12:53.000 --> 00:12:56.919 being ascetic or like living in a cult because you 225 00:12:56.960 --> 00:13:01.879 need epicure. Epic gears is pretty you need money also 226 00:13:02.360 --> 00:13:05.399 to be happy. You just need not as much money 227 00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:07.759 as you think. You don't go for money for money's sake, 228 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:09.159 you go for money for food sake. 229 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:09.879 Yeah. 230 00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:13.840 No, I think the cynics like rejected society sort of 231 00:13:14.159 --> 00:13:17.759 not even like ascetically, but just like almost in like 232 00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:21.399 a Russoian kind of way. Is just like no society 233 00:13:21.639 --> 00:13:25.039 is corrupting, And I think that's probably the view of 234 00:13:25.080 --> 00:13:29.120 politics too, is you know, like I said, for the 235 00:13:29.159 --> 00:13:33.759 stoics too, right, like participate in politics insofar as it 236 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:38.279 does not compromise your virtue. And we all know politics 237 00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:44.159 can be extremely compromising for the development right. 238 00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:45.919 It's it often. 239 00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:50.039 Requires you to be cutthroat and immoral and lie and 240 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:54.480 not cultivate your better virtues anyway, the character virtues. 241 00:13:54.879 --> 00:13:57.360 And it can also make you obsessed with some things 242 00:13:57.480 --> 00:14:01.519 like don't actually matter that much from the perspective, like prestige, 243 00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:03.519 and like these different things. 244 00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:05.080 That popularity, everything that. 245 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:07.320 Popularity don't really matter. 246 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:12.480 Yeah, so let's set up the comparison here for the stoics. 247 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:17.240 To be happy, you need virtue. You live the virtuous life. 248 00:14:17.679 --> 00:14:21.679 You find virtue in nature, which is again much more 249 00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:24.600 expensive than the way we use it. But your nature 250 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:28.200 is your fate. If you fight, if you live in 251 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:31.039 accordance with nature, you'll live and die happy. Even if 252 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:35.039 you have nothing and no one with you, Your happiness 253 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:41.399 is there to be found. Epicureanism. They say that happiness 254 00:14:41.480 --> 00:14:45.879 is found in pleasure. That's it very simple. It's hedonistic. 255 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:49.440 But like we use the word stoicism wrong. The way 256 00:14:49.480 --> 00:14:53.399 we use stoicism means like someone without emotion. Hedonism does 257 00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:56.960 not mean sex drugs and rock and roll. It literally 258 00:14:57.120 --> 00:14:58.879 just means the pursuit of pleasures. 259 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:01.240 The British. The British are at fault for that because 260 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:03.919 the British version of hedonism is the way that people 261 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:06.320 think of hedonism. But it's not like that. 262 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:11.200 Like also the term of materialism, what that tends to 263 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:14.679 mean too, like being obsessed with material things, Like you know, 264 00:15:14.759 --> 00:15:18.960 we're all modern consumer culture running on that hedonic treadmill, 265 00:15:19.080 --> 00:15:21.360 waiting for the next iPhone to come out, and that's 266 00:15:21.399 --> 00:15:22.840 the only thing that makes you happy. 267 00:15:23.159 --> 00:15:25.120 No, like none, Yeah, put all of that out. 268 00:15:25.320 --> 00:15:28.720 None of that would apply. In fact that, as Pills 269 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:32.440 just said, like trying to chase those material things would 270 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:34.799 be a path to unhappiness for the epicurean. 271 00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:38.960 Yeah. If there's anything banned in epicureanism, it's chasing fame 272 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:39.559 and fortune. 273 00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:40.840 Yeah. 274 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:43.639 Yeah, but they say this will carry out in your actions. Really, 275 00:15:43.639 --> 00:15:45.759 it doesn't matter what you believe at all. 276 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:47.679 And it's not even and it's not even banned. It's 277 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:49.840 just like be aware that that's actually like you're just 278 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:52.799 increasing your likelihood of misery if you keep doing that. 279 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:56.759 Like there's no there's no benefit to fame and fortune 280 00:15:57.120 --> 00:16:01.080 because Also another reason is they can't be limited. You 281 00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:03.600 can always have more, seek more fame, you can always 282 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:07.960 seek more money, whereas the natural desires like food when 283 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:11.080 you're when you're full, you can't eat anymore. So it's 284 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:16.320 not an infinite waste. But yeah, happiness and the highest happiness, 285 00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:18.399 this is the highest goal. It's not a sage, it's 286 00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:22.200 not a person. The highest point of happiness is called 287 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:24.360 I said it already at araxia. 288 00:16:24.919 --> 00:16:27.200 Yeah, being at ease at piece, and it. 289 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:31.600 Means being free of pain. So the highest pleasure is 290 00:16:31.639 --> 00:16:35.320 not feeling pain and not physical pain. Right, So the 291 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:38.559 main pains that you feel, the most intense pains you 292 00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:43.200 feel are fear and regret and anxiety. Says the mental pains, 293 00:16:43.639 --> 00:16:45.919 they can last forever because you can never be free 294 00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:48.960 of it until you deal with it. So physical, physical pleasure, 295 00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:52.440 physical pain, these are they're there, but you can basically 296 00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:55.720 get over it. But the main point of epicureanism is 297 00:16:55.759 --> 00:17:00.600 to free yourself from the pain of regret. The fear 298 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:03.279 of death is a big one, and the fear of 299 00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:05.960 the gods, which he constantly brings up. This must have 300 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:09.160 been a big issue, but he says the only purpose 301 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:12.799 of the gods, they're made up by a corrupt society. 302 00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:14.240 Well actually make you feel shitty. 303 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:16.279 Technically he doesn't say they're made up, but all the 304 00:17:16.359 --> 00:17:18.960 rules around them, they are made up to make you 305 00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:21.079 feel shitty. So one of the first things you got 306 00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:23.440 to do is get rid of religion and down the 307 00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:28.599 road Christianity would basically stamp out that picarianism for it's 308 00:17:28.599 --> 00:17:29.640 a pretty obvious reason. 309 00:17:30.279 --> 00:17:32.680 Yeah, yeah, I know. That's that's super interesting. It also 310 00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:34.720 strikes me. One thing that strike struck me when you 311 00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:37.960 were talking their pills is how this ataraxia is that? 312 00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:40.319 Am I saying that? Right? This kind of like absence 313 00:17:40.359 --> 00:17:45.039 of pain. It's it reminds me of like the way 314 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:48.799 modern times we talk about privilege, right, like something like 315 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:52.079 white privilege, and people are like, oh, you don't notice 316 00:17:52.119 --> 00:17:54.640 your privilege. You just like you realize that you're at 317 00:17:54.680 --> 00:17:56.640 ease in a space. It's like I can go into 318 00:17:56.640 --> 00:18:00.160 a store and feel comfortable. Right. For example, if if 319 00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:02.680 you're a white person or whatever, and it strikes me 320 00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:05.799 that this account of like absence of pain, we could 321 00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:09.240 compare it conceptually to that, because it's like it's like 322 00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:11.640 an absence of worrying, right, Because The thing that makes 323 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:15.599 white privilege good isn't that white people are like, oh 324 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:17.759 my god, I'm enjoying my white privilege so much, this 325 00:18:17.880 --> 00:18:19.759 is so great. It's the fact that they don't have 326 00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:22.839 to worry about things, which is the good part. Right. 327 00:18:22.839 --> 00:18:26.720 It's not some additive. It's actually a subtractive in a way. 328 00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:28.839 It's like, I don't have to think about how people 329 00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:30.680 are looking at me when I'm in a space. Right. 330 00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:33.960 That's and I think in a way that's you want 331 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:36.200 to expand that to all parts of your life, and 332 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:39.079 that's I feel like, in a way, like the Epicurean good. 333 00:18:39.319 --> 00:18:40.359 Yeah. 334 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:47.839 I found there's this dope quote from seventeen seventy by 335 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:52.440 a materialist named Baron Tolback, who wrote a text called 336 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:56.559 The System of Nature seventeen seventy, and this just reminded 337 00:18:56.599 --> 00:18:59.319 me of what you were saying about the getting rid 338 00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:04.000 of the gods part of Epicureanism. It's like, the quote 339 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:07.759 runs something like, if we go back to the beginning, 340 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:10.839 we shall find that ignorance and fear created the gods, 341 00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:17.039 That fancy, enthusiasm or deceit adorned them, that weakness worships them, 342 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:22.279 that credulity preserves them, and that custom, respect and tyranny 343 00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:27.359 support them. And I think epicure Epicureanism was one of 344 00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:31.279 the main I mean, maybe we'll do another legacy thing later, 345 00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:33.319 but I just thought that was a badass quote to 346 00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:34.000 bring forward. 347 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:38.119 Epicura says, if the gods exist, you're not going to 348 00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:40.039 be hearing from them, because if the gods who are 349 00:19:40.119 --> 00:19:42.319 who we think they are, then they're happy, and if 350 00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:45.759 they're happy, they're not going to pester us. And if 351 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:49.039 they exist, they're also made of atoms. They're atom is there, 352 00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:52.079 so everything's made of atoms, including the gods. They're not special. 353 00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:55.480 In other words, they're not special, and if they are happy, 354 00:19:55.519 --> 00:19:57.680 you're never even going to hear from them. So they're 355 00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:03.200 kind of like agnostic with respect to debating that. But 356 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:05.400 what he cares about with respect to the gods is 357 00:20:06.039 --> 00:20:10.799 their main purpose seems to be coercing obedience out of 358 00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:14.119 people or making people afraid that they're doing the right thing. 359 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:16.559 Are they being obedient to God or not? Are they 360 00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:18.200 going to go to hell after they die? I don't 361 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:20.680 know what all the Greek equivalents to these things are, 362 00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:27.119 but in our terminology, yeah, God causes a lot of anxiety. 363 00:20:27.160 --> 00:20:29.319 This is kind of the inverse of the Calvinists. The 364 00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:32.599 Calvinist is so worried about whether he's going to heaven 365 00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:34.319 or not that he works his ass off his whole 366 00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:37.440 life just with the vain hope that somehow he'll squeak by. 367 00:20:38.079 --> 00:20:41.720 And the Epicurean works as little as possible because it's 368 00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:44.880 a waste of time and waste of happiness and tries 369 00:20:44.920 --> 00:20:46.960 to be at peace in the here and now. 370 00:20:47.079 --> 00:20:50.559 Well, the Calvinists kind of like Stoicism too, because of 371 00:20:50.599 --> 00:20:56.640 the fatalism there, whereas Epicureanism has the famous swerve idea 372 00:20:56.920 --> 00:21:02.880 the Clinemen the swerve where where atoms will just sort 373 00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:11.000 of completely randomly, by pure absolute chance diverge from their path, 374 00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:15.079 that they will dissent from the path that they're on, 375 00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:18.759 just like at random, which is a kind of they'll follow. 376 00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:22.440 I think the way I heard that is it'll follow it. 377 00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:26.920 Their inclinations and the inclinations of matter can just like 378 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:30.680 take random turns and swerve, which is a little bit 379 00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:35.960 like what following pleasure is is about following the intrinsic 380 00:21:38.839 --> 00:21:45.079 like paths things want to take their inclinations as opposed 381 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:53.480 to like psychological pleasure again and psychological happiness, although psychological 382 00:21:53.799 --> 00:21:59.319 hedonism is what this book calls Epicurus's position, But I 383 00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:01.839 think it has to do with inclination, because what we 384 00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:05.240 get right I see here. You know, one of the 385 00:22:05.240 --> 00:22:12.079 main differences between Epicureanism and Aristotle is the rejection of 386 00:22:12.119 --> 00:22:15.920 telos that things have a purpose, which is another one 387 00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:18.400 of those like I think you were saying earlier, like 388 00:22:18.440 --> 00:22:21.000 oh my god, this is so like correct, like it's 389 00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:25.359 so modern sounding, like it sounds like modern scientific materialism 390 00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:30.480 in the same way that it rejects teleological explanations and 391 00:22:30.759 --> 00:22:35.240 purposes and the idea that everything is like striving towards 392 00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:38.759 this wholeness, which is what the kind of root of 393 00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:43.240 telos is in Aristotle, like a wholeness, that things are 394 00:22:43.880 --> 00:22:48.720 kind of moving towards an end, a whole, and fulfilling 395 00:22:48.759 --> 00:22:53.119 a kind of purpose within that whole. Epicureanism does not 396 00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:58.519 that dismisses that entirely, saying no telos is telos is 397 00:22:59.079 --> 00:23:02.519 nothing for us. Things don't have purpose. 398 00:23:02.759 --> 00:23:05.960 Which sounds very modern. Well, they weren't right about everything, 399 00:23:06.039 --> 00:23:09.160 Like it's not true that sour foods taste sour because 400 00:23:09.160 --> 00:23:12.359 there's tiny little barbs in the food that stab our tongues. 401 00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:16.559