Speaker 1: Welcome to Hacking Your Leadership. I'm Chris and I'm Lorenzo.
Speaker 2: And Lorenzo on this episode, I want to talk a
Speaker 2: little bit about a concept that we've maybe touched on
Speaker 2: a few times, but I don't know if we've you know,
Speaker 2: kind of dove in directly to it in a few years.
Speaker 2: And that's the idea of what author Kim Scott refers
Speaker 2: to as radical candor.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's a great topic.
Speaker 3: I'm a huge fan, and I think the more dialogue
Speaker 3: we can have around this the better for everyone, including
Speaker 3: I think talking just through what does it actually mean
Speaker 3: versus what I hear. A lot people reference it, but
Speaker 3: I don't know that they're exactly accurate with how they
Speaker 3: reference it, right right, Definitely.
Speaker 2: What spurred this is kind of a recent post by
Speaker 2: Kim on LinkedIn where she gives an example of what
Speaker 2: radical candor actually is, and she uses kind of an
Speaker 2: embarrassing example talking about what would you do if you
Speaker 2: noticed a coworker walk out of the bathroom and the
Speaker 2: zipper was down in their pants. And I know that
Speaker 2: there have been times in my life where I've seen
Speaker 2: that and thought I don't want to call out that
Speaker 2: I saw it. I don't want them to think why
Speaker 2: were you looking to begin with. It's like, no, I
Speaker 2: wasn't looking. I just had to notice those things sometimes,
Speaker 2: you know, and like there's a there are reasons why
Speaker 2: we don't call that out when we see it, and
Speaker 2: then there are ways to call it out in the
Speaker 2: wrong way that would leave the coworker feeling embarrassed, and
Speaker 2: there's the right way to do it, and and radical
Speaker 2: candor kind of threads that needle between saying saying something
Speaker 2: but saying it in a way that shows you care
Speaker 2: about the feelings of the person you're saying it too.
Speaker 2: And so I I want to address us with some
Speaker 2: examples because I think there's also another element to this
Speaker 2: that that can feed into whether or not you have
Speaker 2: the ability to have radical candor with a person, and
Speaker 2: that's how strong the relationship is between you and that person.
Speaker 2: And so I think it's a great topic to discuss.
Speaker 2: I know that in times when I have not said
Speaker 2: things that I have regretted it later and thought I
Speaker 2: should have said something, or you could have spared somebody
Speaker 2: some embarrassment. And other times, you know, I can't put
Speaker 2: myself in a situation where I would ever have said something,
Speaker 2: and it's it's usually because my relationship with a person
Speaker 2: is one that is not you know, conducive to having
Speaker 2: discussions like that. But that doesn't mean that nothing needs
Speaker 2: to change. It just means that you got to start
Speaker 2: it in a different spot.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I like kind of these easy examples because
Speaker 3: I think about this one. I think about like I
Speaker 3: eat meals with a lot of peers and other leaders
Speaker 3: and things like that, and so it's the same exact
Speaker 3: thing if you say, if you have a salad and
Speaker 3: there's some type of food in your teeth, or saying
Speaker 3: sometimes people have like a hair, you know, like stick
Speaker 3: it out of their nose, Like small things that you
Speaker 3: might notice as you're having engaging conversations and that you
Speaker 3: you kind of are in that space.
Speaker 1: Of like should I say something?
Speaker 3: You know, I'm saying I don't want to like stare,
Speaker 3: and then that makes it all awkward, like those things happen.
Speaker 3: But what I what I like about the ease of
Speaker 3: the examples is then it's very like like I immediately
Speaker 3: try to scale up because what we're talking about, and
Speaker 3: even she says in the post is like these are
Speaker 3: moments that can be uncomfortable, but addressing them thoughtfully can
Speaker 3: make all the difference, so that you go from something
Speaker 3: like that it's embarrassing, it makes sense to do the
Speaker 3: right thing. You know that if you don't do anything
Speaker 3: that like, you're you know, opening up for more people
Speaker 3: to notice it, for there to be more risk. But
Speaker 3: the harder examples to think about are just simply that
Speaker 3: you see up here make a decision or do something
Speaker 3: that maybe they weren't thinking all the way through, or
Speaker 3: maybe they they missed some element of context.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: I was just in a meeting and people were talking,
Speaker 3: and people were you know, raising their hand and giving
Speaker 3: their point of view, and you know, unintentionally, the person
Speaker 3: that was kind of going through the room and picking
Speaker 3: people to answer questions, they missed somebody that was like
Speaker 3: to the left, but like out of their kind of view,
Speaker 3: so they didn't see their hand up and it wasn't intentional,
Speaker 3: but they didn't see it, and they were going to
Speaker 3: go ahead and move on. And I saw the person
Speaker 3: kind of just put their hand down, and then I said, hey,
Speaker 3: I said, well hold on before we move forward. I
Speaker 3: noticed that, you know, Chris, you had your hand up
Speaker 3: as well, so could I have just let that go.
Speaker 1: Sure, did I have to say anything?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: What does that do for Chris for the rest of
Speaker 1: this meeting? Right?
Speaker 3: I want you to feel seen and heard, you know,
Speaker 3: I want to address basically the facilitator why not calling
Speaker 3: them out but assuming that it was a mistake, but
Speaker 3: also kind of also saying like, hey, pay better attention
Speaker 3: right like before before you move on, look around the
Speaker 3: whole room. But I like that you can go from
Speaker 3: an easy kind of embarrassment style example up to like
Speaker 3: how does this really happen day to day? And when
Speaker 3: do you step up and say something when it is uncomfortable?
Speaker 3: But you could address it in a very thoughtful way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the way that you called it out, it
Speaker 2: doesn't leave the facilitator feeling like they've been called out
Speaker 2: as you know, as not a good leader, you know,
Speaker 2: not caring about the person. It was an oversight, as
Speaker 2: is everything else we're talking about here. You know, I
Speaker 2: like the first example you gave about, you know, eating
Speaker 2: a meal with somebody and then having like, you know,
Speaker 2: something in their teeth or something like that, because you
Speaker 2: know in those are actually, in my opinion, worse than
Speaker 2: the situation of the zipper being down, because if I,
Speaker 2: let's say that I noticed my own zipper is down,
Speaker 2: and I can't trying to think back when was the
Speaker 2: last time I went to the bathroom, you know, and
Speaker 2: and and I'm thinking like, Okay, who's who've I interacted
Speaker 2: with since then? And in my mind, I'm hoping like, Okay,
Speaker 2: I guess nobody saw it, or I hope nobody saw it.
Speaker 2: And maybe I'm right, maybe nobody did see it, but
Speaker 2: maybe people did see it and didn't say something if
Speaker 2: it's something like stuck in my teeth or like on
Speaker 2: my face. If if I notice it later, the first
Speaker 2: thing I'm thinking is, oh, all those people who looked
Speaker 2: at me and didn't say anything, because there's no way
Speaker 2: they didn't see it, right, Like, you can hope nobody
Speaker 2: saw the zipper, but if if you're talking to somebody
Speaker 2: and it's on there on your face, people are gonna
Speaker 2: people notice. And so I like that example even more
Speaker 2: because I know that if I've been in situations like
Speaker 2: that and someone does have something like that, I feel
Speaker 2: like I am very quick to call it out because
Speaker 2: I don't ever want to be in a situation where
Speaker 2: later on they think, you know what, I just had
Speaker 2: a five minute conversation with Chris. Why didn't he tell
Speaker 2: me I had something in my teeth or something on
Speaker 2: my face or you know, or.
Speaker 1: Something like that.
Speaker 2: So I think, uh, I think those situations are maybe
Speaker 2: a little bit easier to overcome, but but not necessarily
Speaker 2: for the right reasons. They're easier to overcome because of
Speaker 2: a trying to avoid the the the the uncomfortable moment.
Speaker 2: Later if the person were to think ill of me
Speaker 2: for not saying something, whereas on the Zipper situation, maybe
Speaker 2: they just assume no one saw.
Speaker 1: But but the.
Speaker 2: The examples that Kim is giving, I think are they're
Speaker 2: they're great because you know, in essence she describes radical
Speaker 2: candor is uh, I mean saying what you think while
Speaker 2: giving a damn about the person you're saying it too.
Speaker 2: And I know, maybe a month or a month and
Speaker 2: a half ago, we had a top pack on here
Speaker 2: where we talked about being brutally honest, and you know,
Speaker 2: we said, you don't you don't have to be brutal
Speaker 2: to be honest at least, you know, usually every once
Speaker 2: in a while maybe, but not typically. But the idea
Speaker 2: of being brutally honest means saying saying what you think
Speaker 2: and maybe what you're saying is completely right, but not
Speaker 2: caring about the feelings or the outcomes or the relationship
Speaker 2: with you and the person you're talking to. Whereas radical
Speaker 2: candor is all that, it checks off all those boxes.
Speaker 2: It says what needs to be said, but it also
Speaker 2: takes into account the feelings of the person you're talking
Speaker 2: to or about and the relationship as a whole. And
Speaker 2: so I think it's I think it's a skill that
Speaker 2: needs to be learned.
Speaker 1: And you can, you can say all.
Speaker 2: The examples you want, but when it comes down to it,
Speaker 2: what actually makes a person feel like they should say
Speaker 2: something and say it in a way that takes into
Speaker 2: account the feelings of the other person. And like I
Speaker 2: said before, there is this you know, I don't want
Speaker 2: to be held accountable for not saying something, meaning they
Speaker 2: know they know clearly I saw something but didn't say anything,
Speaker 2: Or there's the I didn't say something because relationship isn't
Speaker 2: isn't strong enough where I feel like I can, or
Speaker 2: there are situations where I do say something and I
Speaker 2: say in a way that would make Kim Scott proud
Speaker 2: in terms of radical candor. So you know, I think
Speaker 2: it's an interesting kind of dichotomy because even though it's
Speaker 2: something I think I'm good at doing when I do it,
Speaker 2: it's not something that I always consistently do all the time.
Speaker 2: And so it makes me think back on why not?
Speaker 2: Why why don't I? Uh? And And so that's why
Speaker 2: I think it's a It's a great thing to discuss,
Speaker 2: because I would like, I would like to be better
Speaker 2: at that. I would like to be able to go
Speaker 2: back to those situations and think, Okay, why didn't I
Speaker 2: what was stopping me? And then actually figure out a
Speaker 2: way to go through it, because those things can actually
Speaker 2: strengthen the relationship if done right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think too many times, you know, difficult
Speaker 3: conversations can be as simple as as disagreeing with somebody's
Speaker 3: point of view or their per you know, their perspective
Speaker 3: or their idea. And I find myself more in those
Speaker 3: situations where somebody says something that I don't agree with
Speaker 3: or that I feel like they don't know maybe how
Speaker 3: that comes across, or they're not sure of what, you know,
Speaker 3: like they haven't thought through exactly what the meaning of
Speaker 3: their statement is. And so like I'll give you a
Speaker 3: perfect example of this. I hear a lot of times
Speaker 3: people talk about like the balance between people and performance,
Speaker 3: and I immediately say, well, hold on, like, I actually
Speaker 3: don't like to use the work balance right because by
Speaker 3: definition it's too like opposing things that have to find
Speaker 3: equality versus these things are together. It's people and performance
Speaker 3: like And so I correct it when I hear it,
Speaker 3: because I think we say it so much, and I've
Speaker 3: said it in the past. I never thought about it before.
Speaker 3: But then when you think about, like, what are you
Speaker 3: actually saying, and what's the deeper meaning behind it, and
Speaker 3: that I don't want people to continue that thought.
Speaker 1: I don't want.
Speaker 3: People to continue to believe that it's a balance, that
Speaker 3: that it's actually it's it's it's both together. And so
Speaker 3: I that's an example of that. Could be a difficult conversation.
Speaker 3: That could be with somebody who is my peer. That
Speaker 3: could be with somebody who may be I am their leader.
Speaker 3: That could be somebody who I work for directly. That
Speaker 3: could be somebody who I don't work for directly but
Speaker 3: maybe has a higher level of responsibility with an organization.
Speaker 3: So like, there's there's an element of should I say
Speaker 3: anything in the back of that but it's also one
Speaker 3: of those things that I don't mind having that conversation
Speaker 3: with people, and if they don't agree with that, we
Speaker 3: can have a conversation about it. But like, if it's
Speaker 3: going to be around me or having that dialogue, I
Speaker 3: feel it's important to say something, no matter how difficult
Speaker 3: the conversation may be. And and so I use that
Speaker 3: as an example because I find myself hearing people around
Speaker 3: me say things and then you're in that space do
Speaker 3: I say something? And I'll say you Most of the
Speaker 3: time the answer is yes.
Speaker 1: Some of the time it's no.
Speaker 3: Some sometimes it's no, sometimes it's you know what, Like
Speaker 3: I don't know if that's the time. I don't know
Speaker 3: if I have the relationship with this person that is
Speaker 3: built in trust where they would know where I'm coming from.
Speaker 3: There are plenty of times where I might not say
Speaker 3: the thing in the moments, right, But most of the
Speaker 3: time I'm willing to have that conversation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's the there's the you know, Steven
Speaker 2: shoudletski speak up?
Speaker 1: Is it safe and worth it?
Speaker 2: And then there's the other the other side of this,
Speaker 2: which is, you know, there's the question you're supposed to
Speaker 2: ask yourself before you say something, which is does this
Speaker 2: need to be said by me now? And if you
Speaker 2: can answer yes to all three, then then you should
Speaker 2: say something. And if you answer the answer is no,
Speaker 2: maybe it needs to be said by you, but not now.
Speaker 2: So it's a it's a conversation that happens later on
Speaker 2: with the person who said it, as opposed to saying
Speaker 2: something in front of a group of people.
Speaker 1: Does it need to be said by you? Maybe not.
Speaker 2: Maybe there's someone you can partner with to make sure
Speaker 2: that person gets the message. If it's something that you
Speaker 2: can say to them directly, You don't. You don't feel
Speaker 2: like you're comfortable. But I think I like that example
Speaker 2: you gave when it comes to the balance of people
Speaker 2: and performance, because you know, we've talked about it on
Speaker 2: the show before. Like this, I think I think most
Speaker 2: leaders one of the two things of you know, being
Speaker 2: able to hold people accountable and being able to have
Speaker 2: empathy for a person. For most leaders, one of those
Speaker 2: two things comes more naturally than the other. Now that
Speaker 2: that's not that doesn't mean that they get off the
Speaker 2: hook for the other one. It doesn't mean that they
Speaker 2: they have to choose between the two. Obviously, you have
Speaker 2: to be able to have empathy for a person and
Speaker 2: you have to be able to hold them accountable. But
Speaker 2: every most of leaders that I know, if you were
Speaker 2: to really you know, dig in deep, one of those
Speaker 2: two things comes more naturally and the other they have
Speaker 2: to summon in them. And that doesn't mean they can't
Speaker 2: be great at it, but it does mean that it's just,
Speaker 2: you know, we have different strengths that come more naturally
Speaker 2: to us. So I think because of that, because people
Speaker 2: kind of inherently or instinctively know about them and about others,
Speaker 2: that one of those two things comes more naturally. There's
Speaker 2: an inherent kind of tendency to state them as opposing
Speaker 2: forces or like they're balancing each other out. And you know,
Speaker 2: obviously we know that that in order to be a
Speaker 2: good leader, you have to have both. And part of
Speaker 2: empathy is accountability. Part of having empathy for a person
Speaker 2: and developing them and making sure that they know that
Speaker 2: you actually care about them is holding them accountable to
Speaker 2: a standard that they can rely on and that they
Speaker 2: can predict out of you, and that where they can
Speaker 2: kind of gauge their own growth and development and know
Speaker 2: where they stand. That is part of having empathy for somebody,
Speaker 2: and so they are not opposing forces at all. But
Speaker 2: the reason I like your example is that sometimes people
Speaker 2: use the wrong words, but that doesn't mean that they
Speaker 2: mean what they said. It means that they could actually
Speaker 2: agree with you, and they've just said the wrong words,
Speaker 2: and then calling out the faux pas is honestly not appropriate.
Speaker 1: It just makes you look dumb. Right.
Speaker 2: So, if you know of a person and you know
Speaker 2: the way they operate and the way they lead people,
Speaker 2: that they don't look at people and performance as opposing forces,
Speaker 2: that they agree that both of them are important, but
Speaker 2: they happen to say it in a way that that
Speaker 2: is not the right way. Then it becomes a semantic
Speaker 2: argument to say, oh, you know, you mean people are
Speaker 2: in performance. You know, like, you don't want to call
Speaker 2: it out that way and be that guy. But if
Speaker 2: what you know of the person says that they actually
Speaker 2: look at these two things as opposing forces, then.
Speaker 1: You do want to call it out.
Speaker 2: Obviously, you do want to say something because you don't
Speaker 2: want to let them continue believing that, or at the
Speaker 2: very least, you don't want the rest of the room
Speaker 2: they're talking to to continue believing that. And so I
Speaker 2: think it's a It takes some social skills and some
Speaker 2: knowledge of the people you're talking to and about sometimes
Speaker 2: to figure out whether or not radical candor is the
Speaker 2: right way forward, or whether you know it's time to
Speaker 2: take a step back and live to fight another day.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And with that it brings us to this episodes
Speaker 3: one minute hack. But first, if you were some more sponsors.
Speaker 2: All right, for this episode one minute Hackers, I wants
Speaker 2: you to do. Think about the last time that you
Speaker 2: thought about saying something to someone but didn't for whatever reason.
Speaker 2: Either you didn't want to embarrass them, or you felt
Speaker 2: embarrassed saying something, or you didn't feel comfortable for whatever
Speaker 2: reason because of their position or the relationship you have
Speaker 2: with them, or whatever it is. Think about that time
Speaker 2: and really get in touch with why you didn't say something.
Speaker 2: What was it that prevented you from doing that. The
Speaker 2: next thing to do is to go back to that
Speaker 2: person and don't bring up the incident that happened that's
Speaker 2: long gone, but start to work on the things between
Speaker 2: you and that person that prevented you from saying something
Speaker 2: to begin with, because the goal is to make sure
Speaker 2: that every person you work with, whether it be a
Speaker 2: direct report or a peer or a boss, that you
Speaker 2: have the kind of relationship with them where you feel
Speaker 2: comfortable being radically candid with them, You feel comfortable saying
Speaker 2: what needs to be said honestly, but in a way
Speaker 2: that gives a damn about their feelings. And if you
Speaker 2: don't have that relationship with people with whom you work,
Speaker 2: you need to so that you can build those relationships stronger,
Speaker 2: get better work done, be more productive. It's incredible what
Speaker 2: you can accomplish with people if you have the relationship
Speaker 2: with them that says that you can be radically candid
Speaker 2: with them and they can be radically candid with you.
Speaker 2: And so whoever those people are who you've had examples with,
Speaker 2: go back and work on it and try to make
Speaker 2: sure that the next time something happens that you feel
Speaker 2: comfortable saying something the right way.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it's a great hack.
Speaker 3: And you know, continuing to build on those relationships. And
Speaker 3: we talk a lot on the show just around kind
Speaker 3: of building trust and the interactions that you have and
Speaker 3: the dialog that you're having. And there becomes a point
Speaker 3: when it used to be easy. It used to be
Speaker 3: easy when everyone had a little bit less responsibility when
Speaker 3: you were kind of working as an individual contributor maybe
Speaker 3: and you're just working with people, you're learning together at
Speaker 3: the same pace, you have a lot in common as
Speaker 3: you're kind of building careers together. And then you get
Speaker 3: into a space where now most of the people around
Speaker 3: you may have big responsibilities and large teams and things
Speaker 3: that they have to accomplish, and there's this element of
Speaker 3: ego that gets involved and all these different hurdles that
Speaker 3: will maybe stop us from having and saying the things
Speaker 3: that we need to say to one another when we
Speaker 3: truly care about them. And the reality is, if you
Speaker 3: get to the point where you just don't care but
Speaker 3: you're looking to continue to grow yourself and grow your team,
Speaker 3: you have to spend the time figuring out ways to
Speaker 3: build the relationships to get to that point. And again,
Speaker 3: I'd say that because what used to be really easy
Speaker 3: in spending a lot of time with the same people
Speaker 3: on the same task, now you'll have less time doing
Speaker 3: the same tasks with those same people, you have less
Speaker 3: interactions with them. You have to be more intentional with
Speaker 3: finding ways to build a relationship so that not only
Speaker 3: can you step up and be radical, you know, have
Speaker 3: radical candor with that individual, but they will also have
Speaker 3: it with you, and that make sure that you get
Speaker 3: which you need to be successful and going.
Speaker 1: Forward right for sure.
Speaker 2: And then again that calls out the importance of the relationship. Obviously,
Speaker 2: the more time you spend with a person, hopefully that
Speaker 2: means the better relationship you have with them, and that
Speaker 2: means you're probably more likely to be able to say something.
Speaker 2: But the importance of the relationship will decide whether or
Speaker 2: not you can say something.
Speaker 1: And the further along you move in.
Speaker 2: Your career, the more people you will have tangential relationships with.
Speaker 2: They're not direct reports, they're not necessarily peers, and they're
Speaker 2: not your direct boss. You know, the kind of the
Speaker 2: close circle of three to five people that you work
Speaker 2: with every single day. They will be people who you
Speaker 2: maybe work with or see or talk to once a
Speaker 2: week or a month or a quarter or a year.
Speaker 2: But you've been doing it long enough where you have
Speaker 2: a very cordial relationship and you know each other and
Speaker 2: if you and those are the people who it's more
Speaker 2: difficult to have radical candor with because you know there
Speaker 2: it seems like you should be able to because you're
Speaker 2: friendly and you know each other and you can call
Speaker 2: each other, but you don't spend enough time with them
Speaker 2: to feel like it's natural to be radically candid with them,
Speaker 2: and so again, work on the relationships.
Speaker 1: It's it's the right thing to.
Speaker 3: Do, absolutely and with that it brings us at the
Speaker 3: end of this episode, this is hacking your leadership. I'm
Speaker 3: Lorenzo and I'm Chris, and we'll talk to you all
Speaker 3: next time.