WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:03.680 Welcome to Hacking Your Leadership. I'm Chris and I'm Lorenzo. 2 00:00:03.720 --> 00:00:05.559 And Lorenzo on this episode, I want to talk a 3 00:00:05.559 --> 00:00:08.119 little bit about a concept that we've maybe touched on 4 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:10.480 a few times, but I don't know if we've you know, 5 00:00:10.599 --> 00:00:12.880 kind of dove in directly to it in a few years. 6 00:00:13.199 --> 00:00:17.320 And that's the idea of what author Kim Scott refers 7 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:18.559 to as radical candor. 8 00:00:18.679 --> 00:00:19.879 Yeah, I think it's a great topic. 9 00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:24.719 I'm a huge fan, and I think the more dialogue 10 00:00:24.760 --> 00:00:27.719 we can have around this the better for everyone, including 11 00:00:27.800 --> 00:00:30.039 I think talking just through what does it actually mean 12 00:00:30.120 --> 00:00:32.960 versus what I hear. A lot people reference it, but 13 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:34.759 I don't know that they're exactly accurate with how they 14 00:00:34.840 --> 00:00:36.359 reference it, right right, Definitely. 15 00:00:36.759 --> 00:00:39.240 What spurred this is kind of a recent post by 16 00:00:39.280 --> 00:00:42.880 Kim on LinkedIn where she gives an example of what 17 00:00:43.000 --> 00:00:45.560 radical candor actually is, and she uses kind of an 18 00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:48.840 embarrassing example talking about what would you do if you 19 00:00:48.960 --> 00:00:51.119 noticed a coworker walk out of the bathroom and the 20 00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:54.719 zipper was down in their pants. And I know that 21 00:00:54.920 --> 00:00:57.359 there have been times in my life where I've seen 22 00:00:57.399 --> 00:01:00.159 that and thought I don't want to call out that 23 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:02.159 I saw it. I don't want them to think why 24 00:01:02.159 --> 00:01:04.000 were you looking to begin with. It's like, no, I 25 00:01:04.040 --> 00:01:06.879 wasn't looking. I just had to notice those things sometimes, 26 00:01:06.959 --> 00:01:10.000 you know, and like there's a there are reasons why 27 00:01:10.319 --> 00:01:13.400 we don't call that out when we see it, and 28 00:01:13.439 --> 00:01:15.560 then there are ways to call it out in the 29 00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:18.359 wrong way that would leave the coworker feeling embarrassed, and 30 00:01:18.400 --> 00:01:20.599 there's the right way to do it, and and radical 31 00:01:20.599 --> 00:01:24.480 candor kind of threads that needle between saying saying something 32 00:01:24.519 --> 00:01:27.280 but saying it in a way that shows you care 33 00:01:27.439 --> 00:01:29.640 about the feelings of the person you're saying it too. 34 00:01:30.079 --> 00:01:32.439 And so I I want to address us with some 35 00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:35.640 examples because I think there's also another element to this 36 00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:39.719 that that can feed into whether or not you have 37 00:01:39.879 --> 00:01:43.519 the ability to have radical candor with a person, and 38 00:01:43.599 --> 00:01:47.120 that's how strong the relationship is between you and that person. 39 00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:50.200 And so I think it's a great topic to discuss. 40 00:01:50.519 --> 00:01:52.760 I know that in times when I have not said 41 00:01:52.799 --> 00:01:56.120 things that I have regretted it later and thought I 42 00:01:56.120 --> 00:01:59.159 should have said something, or you could have spared somebody 43 00:01:59.200 --> 00:02:03.400 some embarrassment. And other times, you know, I can't put 44 00:02:03.400 --> 00:02:06.359 myself in a situation where I would ever have said something, 45 00:02:06.680 --> 00:02:10.319 and it's it's usually because my relationship with a person 46 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:13.479 is one that is not you know, conducive to having 47 00:02:13.479 --> 00:02:16.479 discussions like that. But that doesn't mean that nothing needs 48 00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:18.520 to change. It just means that you got to start 49 00:02:18.520 --> 00:02:19.240 it in a different spot. 50 00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:21.759 Yeah, And I like kind of these easy examples because 51 00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:23.879 I think about this one. I think about like I 52 00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:26.560 eat meals with a lot of peers and other leaders 53 00:02:26.560 --> 00:02:28.439 and things like that, and so it's the same exact 54 00:02:28.439 --> 00:02:30.080 thing if you say, if you have a salad and 55 00:02:30.120 --> 00:02:33.000 there's some type of food in your teeth, or saying 56 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:36.560 sometimes people have like a hair, you know, like stick 57 00:02:36.560 --> 00:02:38.919 it out of their nose, Like small things that you 58 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:42.280 might notice as you're having engaging conversations and that you 59 00:02:42.280 --> 00:02:43.840 you kind of are in that space. 60 00:02:43.599 --> 00:02:45.400 Of like should I say something? 61 00:02:45.560 --> 00:02:47.400 You know, I'm saying I don't want to like stare, 62 00:02:47.719 --> 00:02:50.000 and then that makes it all awkward, like those things happen. 63 00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:52.360 But what I what I like about the ease of 64 00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:55.319 the examples is then it's very like like I immediately 65 00:02:55.319 --> 00:02:57.199 try to scale up because what we're talking about, and 66 00:02:57.199 --> 00:02:59.360 even she says in the post is like these are 67 00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:02.759 moments that can be uncomfortable, but addressing them thoughtfully can 68 00:03:02.800 --> 00:03:06.159 make all the difference, so that you go from something 69 00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:08.919 like that it's embarrassing, it makes sense to do the 70 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:11.800 right thing. You know that if you don't do anything 71 00:03:12.120 --> 00:03:15.360 that like, you're you know, opening up for more people 72 00:03:15.400 --> 00:03:17.719 to notice it, for there to be more risk. But 73 00:03:18.759 --> 00:03:23.039 the harder examples to think about are just simply that 74 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:26.919 you see up here make a decision or do something 75 00:03:28.039 --> 00:03:30.639 that maybe they weren't thinking all the way through, or 76 00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:33.439 maybe they they missed some element of context. 77 00:03:33.560 --> 00:03:33.759 You know. 78 00:03:34.400 --> 00:03:36.319 I was just in a meeting and people were talking, 79 00:03:36.360 --> 00:03:39.080 and people were you know, raising their hand and giving 80 00:03:39.080 --> 00:03:42.520 their point of view, and you know, unintentionally, the person 81 00:03:42.520 --> 00:03:45.360 that was kind of going through the room and picking 82 00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:49.240 people to answer questions, they missed somebody that was like 83 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:52.120 to the left, but like out of their kind of view, 84 00:03:52.280 --> 00:03:54.719 so they didn't see their hand up and it wasn't intentional, 85 00:03:55.159 --> 00:03:56.919 but they didn't see it, and they were going to 86 00:03:56.960 --> 00:03:58.599 go ahead and move on. And I saw the person 87 00:03:58.759 --> 00:04:01.240 kind of just put their hand down, and then I said, hey, 88 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:02.840 I said, well hold on before we move forward. I 89 00:04:02.919 --> 00:04:05.080 noticed that, you know, Chris, you had your hand up 90 00:04:05.080 --> 00:04:07.479 as well, so could I have just let that go. 91 00:04:07.800 --> 00:04:09.639 Sure, did I have to say anything? 92 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:09.879 No? 93 00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:12.560 What does that do for Chris for the rest of 94 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:13.680 this meeting? Right? 95 00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:16.040 I want you to feel seen and heard, you know, 96 00:04:16.120 --> 00:04:20.439 I want to address basically the facilitator why not calling 97 00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:23.160 them out but assuming that it was a mistake, but 98 00:04:23.240 --> 00:04:25.720 also kind of also saying like, hey, pay better attention 99 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:28.160 right like before before you move on, look around the 100 00:04:28.199 --> 00:04:30.920 whole room. But I like that you can go from 101 00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:34.959 an easy kind of embarrassment style example up to like 102 00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:37.519 how does this really happen day to day? And when 103 00:04:37.560 --> 00:04:40.319 do you step up and say something when it is uncomfortable? 104 00:04:40.519 --> 00:04:42.279 But you could address it in a very thoughtful way. 105 00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:45.279 Yeah, so the way that you called it out, it 106 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:48.600 doesn't leave the facilitator feeling like they've been called out 107 00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:51.680 as you know, as not a good leader, you know, 108 00:04:51.720 --> 00:04:54.600 not caring about the person. It was an oversight, as 109 00:04:54.759 --> 00:04:56.839 is everything else we're talking about here. You know, I 110 00:04:57.279 --> 00:05:00.000 like the first example you gave about, you know, eating 111 00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:01.639 a meal with somebody and then having like, you know, 112 00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:04.399 something in their teeth or something like that, because you 113 00:05:04.439 --> 00:05:08.199 know in those are actually, in my opinion, worse than 114 00:05:08.279 --> 00:05:12.240 the situation of the zipper being down, because if I, 115 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:15.279 let's say that I noticed my own zipper is down, 116 00:05:15.519 --> 00:05:17.439 and I can't trying to think back when was the 117 00:05:17.480 --> 00:05:18.920 last time I went to the bathroom, you know, and 118 00:05:19.079 --> 00:05:22.079 and and I'm thinking like, Okay, who's who've I interacted 119 00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:25.360 with since then? And in my mind, I'm hoping like, Okay, 120 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:27.600 I guess nobody saw it, or I hope nobody saw it. 121 00:05:27.639 --> 00:05:29.759 And maybe I'm right, maybe nobody did see it, but 122 00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:32.560 maybe people did see it and didn't say something if 123 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:34.519 it's something like stuck in my teeth or like on 124 00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:38.000 my face. If if I notice it later, the first 125 00:05:38.040 --> 00:05:41.079 thing I'm thinking is, oh, all those people who looked 126 00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:43.360 at me and didn't say anything, because there's no way 127 00:05:43.399 --> 00:05:45.600 they didn't see it, right, Like, you can hope nobody 128 00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:48.399 saw the zipper, but if if you're talking to somebody 129 00:05:48.439 --> 00:05:50.680 and it's on there on your face, people are gonna 130 00:05:50.759 --> 00:05:53.560 people notice. And so I like that example even more 131 00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:57.240 because I know that if I've been in situations like 132 00:05:57.240 --> 00:05:59.879 that and someone does have something like that, I feel 133 00:05:59.879 --> 00:06:03.199 like I am very quick to call it out because 134 00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:05.439 I don't ever want to be in a situation where 135 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:07.879 later on they think, you know what, I just had 136 00:06:07.879 --> 00:06:10.079 a five minute conversation with Chris. Why didn't he tell 137 00:06:10.120 --> 00:06:12.319 me I had something in my teeth or something on 138 00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:13.680 my face or you know, or. 139 00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:14.240 Something like that. 140 00:06:14.279 --> 00:06:17.879 So I think, uh, I think those situations are maybe 141 00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:21.240 a little bit easier to overcome, but but not necessarily 142 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:23.839 for the right reasons. They're easier to overcome because of 143 00:06:23.879 --> 00:06:28.040 a trying to avoid the the the the uncomfortable moment. 144 00:06:28.120 --> 00:06:30.959 Later if the person were to think ill of me 145 00:06:31.319 --> 00:06:35.079 for not saying something, whereas on the Zipper situation, maybe 146 00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:36.560 they just assume no one saw. 147 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:39.120 But but the. 148 00:06:38.839 --> 00:06:41.759 The examples that Kim is giving, I think are they're 149 00:06:41.879 --> 00:06:45.399 they're great because you know, in essence she describes radical 150 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:48.920 candor is uh, I mean saying what you think while 151 00:06:48.920 --> 00:06:50.800 giving a damn about the person you're saying it too. 152 00:06:51.079 --> 00:06:52.360 And I know, maybe a month or a month and 153 00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:54.240 a half ago, we had a top pack on here 154 00:06:54.279 --> 00:06:57.839 where we talked about being brutally honest, and you know, 155 00:06:57.879 --> 00:06:59.680 we said, you don't you don't have to be brutal 156 00:06:59.720 --> 00:07:03.000 to be honest at least, you know, usually every once 157 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:07.000 in a while maybe, but not typically. But the idea 158 00:07:07.079 --> 00:07:11.240 of being brutally honest means saying saying what you think 159 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:14.319 and maybe what you're saying is completely right, but not 160 00:07:14.439 --> 00:07:17.600 caring about the feelings or the outcomes or the relationship 161 00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:20.360 with you and the person you're talking to. Whereas radical 162 00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:22.879 candor is all that, it checks off all those boxes. 163 00:07:23.160 --> 00:07:25.439 It says what needs to be said, but it also 164 00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:27.680 takes into account the feelings of the person you're talking 165 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:30.800 to or about and the relationship as a whole. And 166 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:34.360 so I think it's I think it's a skill that 167 00:07:34.480 --> 00:07:35.399 needs to be learned. 168 00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:36.879 And you can, you can say all. 169 00:07:36.759 --> 00:07:39.720 The examples you want, but when it comes down to it, 170 00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:44.040 what actually makes a person feel like they should say 171 00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:46.439 something and say it in a way that takes into 172 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:49.160 account the feelings of the other person. And like I 173 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:51.720 said before, there is this you know, I don't want 174 00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:54.319 to be held accountable for not saying something, meaning they 175 00:07:54.399 --> 00:07:56.839 know they know clearly I saw something but didn't say anything, 176 00:07:57.519 --> 00:08:01.000 Or there's the I didn't say something because relationship isn't 177 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:03.639 isn't strong enough where I feel like I can, or 178 00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:05.519 there are situations where I do say something and I 179 00:08:05.560 --> 00:08:08.319 say in a way that would make Kim Scott proud 180 00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:11.279 in terms of radical candor. So you know, I think 181 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:14.879 it's an interesting kind of dichotomy because even though it's 182 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:17.759 something I think I'm good at doing when I do it, 183 00:08:17.759 --> 00:08:21.000 it's not something that I always consistently do all the time. 184 00:08:21.240 --> 00:08:23.000 And so it makes me think back on why not? 185 00:08:23.199 --> 00:08:26.199 Why why don't I? Uh? And And so that's why 186 00:08:26.199 --> 00:08:29.199 I think it's a It's a great thing to discuss, 187 00:08:29.319 --> 00:08:32.440 because I would like, I would like to be better 188 00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:33.879 at that. I would like to be able to go 189 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:36.679 back to those situations and think, Okay, why didn't I 190 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:39.120 what was stopping me? And then actually figure out a 191 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:42.279 way to go through it, because those things can actually 192 00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:44.399 strengthen the relationship if done right. 193 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:49.360 Yeah, And I think too many times, you know, difficult 194 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:54.879 conversations can be as simple as as disagreeing with somebody's 195 00:08:54.919 --> 00:08:57.559 point of view or their per you know, their perspective 196 00:08:57.759 --> 00:09:03.559 or their idea. And I find myself more in those 197 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:08.200 situations where somebody says something that I don't agree with 198 00:09:08.440 --> 00:09:14.120 or that I feel like they don't know maybe how 199 00:09:14.120 --> 00:09:18.440 that comes across, or they're not sure of what, you know, 200 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:21.000 like they haven't thought through exactly what the meaning of 201 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:22.879 their statement is. And so like I'll give you a 202 00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:25.639 perfect example of this. I hear a lot of times 203 00:09:25.639 --> 00:09:29.399 people talk about like the balance between people and performance, 204 00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:32.519 and I immediately say, well, hold on, like, I actually 205 00:09:32.559 --> 00:09:35.559 don't like to use the work balance right because by 206 00:09:35.639 --> 00:09:38.879 definition it's too like opposing things that have to find 207 00:09:39.279 --> 00:09:43.559 equality versus these things are together. It's people and performance 208 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:46.360 like And so I correct it when I hear it, 209 00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:49.799 because I think we say it so much, and I've 210 00:09:49.799 --> 00:09:52.000 said it in the past. I never thought about it before. 211 00:09:52.360 --> 00:09:53.799 But then when you think about, like, what are you 212 00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:57.480 actually saying, and what's the deeper meaning behind it, and 213 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:01.679 that I don't want people to continue that thought. 214 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:02.360 I don't want. 215 00:10:02.200 --> 00:10:05.200 People to continue to believe that it's a balance, that 216 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:09.159 that it's actually it's it's it's both together. And so 217 00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:13.120 I that's an example of that. Could be a difficult conversation. 218 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:16.399 That could be with somebody who is my peer. That 219 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:19.399 could be with somebody who may be I am their leader. 220 00:10:19.639 --> 00:10:22.000 That could be somebody who I work for directly. That 221 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:24.240 could be somebody who I don't work for directly but 222 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:28.039 maybe has a higher level of responsibility with an organization. 223 00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:31.120 So like, there's there's an element of should I say 224 00:10:31.159 --> 00:10:33.399 anything in the back of that but it's also one 225 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:35.639 of those things that I don't mind having that conversation 226 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:38.039 with people, and if they don't agree with that, we 227 00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:40.240 can have a conversation about it. But like, if it's 228 00:10:40.279 --> 00:10:43.080 going to be around me or having that dialogue, I 229 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:45.799 feel it's important to say something, no matter how difficult 230 00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:48.960 the conversation may be. And and so I use that 231 00:10:49.360 --> 00:10:54.559 as an example because I find myself hearing people around 232 00:10:54.600 --> 00:10:58.080 me say things and then you're in that space do 233 00:10:58.159 --> 00:11:01.120 I say something? And I'll say you Most of the 234 00:11:01.159 --> 00:11:02.399 time the answer is yes. 235 00:11:02.519 --> 00:11:03.279 Some of the time it's no. 236 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:05.559 Some sometimes it's no, sometimes it's you know what, Like 237 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:07.879 I don't know if that's the time. I don't know 238 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:11.000 if I have the relationship with this person that is 239 00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:13.759 built in trust where they would know where I'm coming from. 240 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:16.879 There are plenty of times where I might not say 241 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:20.600 the thing in the moments, right, But most of the 242 00:11:20.679 --> 00:11:22.519 time I'm willing to have that conversation. 243 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:25.440 Yeah, I think there's the there's the you know, Steven 244 00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:27.120 shoudletski speak up? 245 00:11:27.399 --> 00:11:28.360 Is it safe and worth it? 246 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:30.320 And then there's the other the other side of this, 247 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:33.399 which is, you know, there's the question you're supposed to 248 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:36.159 ask yourself before you say something, which is does this 249 00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:39.799 need to be said by me now? And if you 250 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:41.759 can answer yes to all three, then then you should 251 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:44.120 say something. And if you answer the answer is no, 252 00:11:44.440 --> 00:11:46.480 maybe it needs to be said by you, but not now. 253 00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:48.840 So it's a it's a conversation that happens later on 254 00:11:49.159 --> 00:11:51.080 with the person who said it, as opposed to saying 255 00:11:51.080 --> 00:11:52.320 something in front of a group of people. 256 00:11:53.039 --> 00:11:56.240 Does it need to be said by you? Maybe not. 257 00:11:56.320 --> 00:11:58.159 Maybe there's someone you can partner with to make sure 258 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:00.720 that person gets the message. If it's something that you 259 00:12:00.759 --> 00:12:02.399 can say to them directly, You don't. You don't feel 260 00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:05.759 like you're comfortable. But I think I like that example 261 00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:08.039 you gave when it comes to the balance of people 262 00:12:08.039 --> 00:12:11.039 and performance, because you know, we've talked about it on 263 00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:14.879 the show before. Like this, I think I think most 264 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:19.000 leaders one of the two things of you know, being 265 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:21.320 able to hold people accountable and being able to have 266 00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:25.519 empathy for a person. For most leaders, one of those 267 00:12:25.559 --> 00:12:28.720 two things comes more naturally than the other. Now that 268 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:30.279 that's not that doesn't mean that they get off the 269 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:31.879 hook for the other one. It doesn't mean that they 270 00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:34.799 they have to choose between the two. Obviously, you have 271 00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:36.679 to be able to have empathy for a person and 272 00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:38.519 you have to be able to hold them accountable. But 273 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:42.679 every most of leaders that I know, if you were 274 00:12:42.720 --> 00:12:45.159 to really you know, dig in deep, one of those 275 00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:47.840 two things comes more naturally and the other they have 276 00:12:47.879 --> 00:12:49.679 to summon in them. And that doesn't mean they can't 277 00:12:49.679 --> 00:12:51.679 be great at it, but it does mean that it's just, 278 00:12:51.759 --> 00:12:53.879 you know, we have different strengths that come more naturally 279 00:12:53.919 --> 00:12:57.240 to us. So I think because of that, because people 280 00:12:57.320 --> 00:13:01.200 kind of inherently or instinctively know about them and about others, 281 00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:06.039 that one of those two things comes more naturally. There's 282 00:13:06.320 --> 00:13:11.399 an inherent kind of tendency to state them as opposing 283 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:14.279 forces or like they're balancing each other out. And you know, 284 00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:17.080 obviously we know that that in order to be a 285 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:19.879 good leader, you have to have both. And part of 286 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:24.080 empathy is accountability. Part of having empathy for a person 287 00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:26.360 and developing them and making sure that they know that 288 00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:29.879 you actually care about them is holding them accountable to 289 00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:33.039 a standard that they can rely on and that they 290 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:36.440 can predict out of you, and that where they can 291 00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:38.759 kind of gauge their own growth and development and know 292 00:13:38.799 --> 00:13:41.480 where they stand. That is part of having empathy for somebody, 293 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:43.960 and so they are not opposing forces at all. But 294 00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:47.480 the reason I like your example is that sometimes people 295 00:13:47.639 --> 00:13:51.120 use the wrong words, but that doesn't mean that they 296 00:13:51.159 --> 00:13:53.519 mean what they said. It means that they could actually 297 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:55.759 agree with you, and they've just said the wrong words, 298 00:13:56.039 --> 00:14:01.399 and then calling out the faux pas is honestly not appropriate. 299 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:02.919 It just makes you look dumb. Right. 300 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:05.240 So, if you know of a person and you know 301 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:07.320 the way they operate and the way they lead people, 302 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:10.559 that they don't look at people and performance as opposing forces, 303 00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:13.639 that they agree that both of them are important, but 304 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:15.840 they happen to say it in a way that that 305 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:18.440 is not the right way. Then it becomes a semantic 306 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:20.480 argument to say, oh, you know, you mean people are 307 00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:22.960 in performance. You know, like, you don't want to call 308 00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:26.320 it out that way and be that guy. But if 309 00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:30.159 what you know of the person says that they actually 310 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:32.840 look at these two things as opposing forces, then. 311 00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:33.879 You do want to call it out. 312 00:14:33.879 --> 00:14:36.679 Obviously, you do want to say something because you don't 313 00:14:36.679 --> 00:14:40.120 want to let them continue believing that, or at the 314 00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:42.000 very least, you don't want the rest of the room 315 00:14:42.039 --> 00:14:44.720 they're talking to to continue believing that. And so I 316 00:14:44.759 --> 00:14:50.399 think it's a It takes some social skills and some 317 00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:54.200 knowledge of the people you're talking to and about sometimes 318 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:57.720 to figure out whether or not radical candor is the 319 00:14:57.840 --> 00:15:00.799 right way forward, or whether you know it's time to 320 00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:03.639 take a step back and live to fight another day. 321 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:05.960 Absolutely, And with that it brings us to this episodes 322 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:08.919 one minute hack. But first, if you were some more sponsors. 323 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:11.039 All right, for this episode one minute Hackers, I wants 324 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:13.279 you to do. Think about the last time that you 325 00:15:13.399 --> 00:15:16.519 thought about saying something to someone but didn't for whatever reason. 326 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:19.000 Either you didn't want to embarrass them, or you felt 327 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:21.720 embarrassed saying something, or you didn't feel comfortable for whatever 328 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:24.600 reason because of their position or the relationship you have 329 00:15:24.679 --> 00:15:27.279 with them, or whatever it is. Think about that time 330 00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:31.279 and really get in touch with why you didn't say something. 331 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:34.080 What was it that prevented you from doing that. The 332 00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:35.639 next thing to do is to go back to that 333 00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:38.679 person and don't bring up the incident that happened that's 334 00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:42.080 long gone, but start to work on the things between 335 00:15:42.120 --> 00:15:45.080 you and that person that prevented you from saying something 336 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:47.440 to begin with, because the goal is to make sure 337 00:15:47.480 --> 00:15:49.960 that every person you work with, whether it be a 338 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:52.759 direct report or a peer or a boss, that you 339 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:55.399 have the kind of relationship with them where you feel 340 00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:58.919 comfortable being radically candid with them, You feel comfortable saying 341 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:01.759 what needs to be said honestly, but in a way 342 00:16:01.799 --> 00:16:04.919 that gives a damn about their feelings. And if you 343 00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:08.000 don't have that relationship with people with whom you work, 344 00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:12.679 you need to so that you can build those relationships stronger, 345 00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:17.159 get better work done, be more productive. It's incredible what 346 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:19.879 you can accomplish with people if you have the relationship 347 00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:22.360 with them that says that you can be radically candid 348 00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:24.720 with them and they can be radically candid with you. 349 00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:28.000 And so whoever those people are who you've had examples with, 350 00:16:28.600 --> 00:16:30.480 go back and work on it and try to make 351 00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:33.039 sure that the next time something happens that you feel 352 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:34.399 comfortable saying something the right way. 353 00:16:34.519 --> 00:16:35.840 Yeah. I think it's a great hack. 354 00:16:35.919 --> 00:16:39.080 And you know, continuing to build on those relationships. And 355 00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:41.600 we talk a lot on the show just around kind 356 00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:43.960 of building trust and the interactions that you have and 357 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:46.600 the dialog that you're having. And there becomes a point 358 00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:51.559 when it used to be easy. It used to be 359 00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:55.399 easy when everyone had a little bit less responsibility when 360 00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:59.879 you were kind of working as an individual contributor maybe 361 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:02.759 and you're just working with people, you're learning together at 362 00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:05.559 the same pace, you have a lot in common as 363 00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:08.440 you're kind of building careers together. And then you get 364 00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:12.279 into a space where now most of the people around 365 00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:15.799 you may have big responsibilities and large teams and things 366 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:18.640 that they have to accomplish, and there's this element of 367 00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:23.279 ego that gets involved and all these different hurdles that 368 00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:26.279 will maybe stop us from having and saying the things 369 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:28.119 that we need to say to one another when we 370 00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:31.279 truly care about them. And the reality is, if you 371 00:17:31.279 --> 00:17:34.160 get to the point where you just don't care but 372 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:37.519 you're looking to continue to grow yourself and grow your team, 373 00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:39.920 you have to spend the time figuring out ways to 374 00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:42.640 build the relationships to get to that point. And again, 375 00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:45.680 I'd say that because what used to be really easy 376 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:47.759 in spending a lot of time with the same people 377 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:52.119 on the same task, now you'll have less time doing 378 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:55.200 the same tasks with those same people, you have less 379 00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:58.279 interactions with them. You have to be more intentional with 380 00:17:58.359 --> 00:18:01.240 finding ways to build a relationship so that not only 381 00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:03.960 can you step up and be radical, you know, have 382 00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:06.240 radical candor with that individual, but they will also have 383 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:08.359 it with you, and that make sure that you get 384 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:10.039 which you need to be successful and going. 385 00:18:09.839 --> 00:18:10.799 Forward right for sure. 386 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:13.799 And then again that calls out the importance of the relationship. Obviously, 387 00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:16.359 the more time you spend with a person, hopefully that 388 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:18.480 means the better relationship you have with them, and that 389 00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:20.559 means you're probably more likely to be able to say something. 390 00:18:20.559 --> 00:18:23.240 But the importance of the relationship will decide whether or 391 00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:24.319 not you can say something. 392 00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:27.680 And the further along you move in. 393 00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:32.079 Your career, the more people you will have tangential relationships with. 394 00:18:32.519 --> 00:18:36.759 They're not direct reports, they're not necessarily peers, and they're 395 00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:38.880 not your direct boss. You know, the kind of the 396 00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:41.720 close circle of three to five people that you work 397 00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:44.799 with every single day. They will be people who you 398 00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:48.079 maybe work with or see or talk to once a 399 00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:50.160 week or a month or a quarter or a year. 400 00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:52.799 But you've been doing it long enough where you have 401 00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:55.279