WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:05.440 Sure, well, yes, it's my area of birthday. 2 00:00:07.759 --> 00:00:12.160 You're not going anywhere, are you? 3 00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:17.879 Yes, Dan, I took the tablets an hour ago. I'll 4 00:00:17.920 --> 00:00:30.440 be come by midnight. 5 00:00:41.439 --> 00:00:44.280 Welcome to Amusing Jews, where we celebrate Jewish contributors and 6 00:00:44.320 --> 00:00:48.479 contributions to American popular culture. I'm Jonathan Friedman and I'm 7 00:00:48.560 --> 00:00:52.640 Joey Angelfield. Producer engineer Mike Tomren is working somewhere behind 8 00:00:52.640 --> 00:00:55.280 the scenes. Amusing Jews is a project of a Dot 9 00:00:55.359 --> 00:00:59.159 Havareine Congregation for Humanistic Judaism, the Jewish Museum of the 10 00:00:59.159 --> 00:01:03.159 American West in Atheist United Studios. Hey, Joey. No one 11 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:06.480 chooses to be born, but what about choosing when and 12 00:01:06.560 --> 00:01:09.959 how we die? A new novel by Today's guest explores 13 00:01:10.040 --> 00:01:12.560 this question and what it means for the loved ones 14 00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:13.359 left behind. 15 00:01:13.760 --> 00:01:16.560 We're happy to talk with Eric beck Rubin, an author 16 00:01:16.599 --> 00:01:20.480 and academic whose new novel is Ten Clear Days. Eric, 17 00:01:21.159 --> 00:01:22.359 Welcome to Amusing Juice. 18 00:01:22.680 --> 00:01:23.680 Thank you for the invitation. 19 00:01:24.560 --> 00:01:27.920 Ten Clear Days began as a memoir but became a novel. 20 00:01:28.719 --> 00:01:29.760 What caused that shift? 21 00:01:29.959 --> 00:01:34.519 A memoir? Is this inevitably, at least I think inevitably 22 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:37.280 a mix of fact and fiction. And it's not quite 23 00:01:37.319 --> 00:01:40.680 clear where one ends and the other begins. And even 24 00:01:40.719 --> 00:01:48.159 if that's just using the rules of fiction creating narrative structure, 25 00:01:48.239 --> 00:01:51.319 you're crossing a certain line. And for me, at least, 26 00:01:52.280 --> 00:01:57.040 memoir has a tinge of fraudulence to it in the 27 00:01:57.120 --> 00:02:00.840 sense that personally speaking, at least I grew up in 28 00:02:00.879 --> 00:02:04.840 the time of James Frey and Stephen Glass and Jason Blair. 29 00:02:04.959 --> 00:02:10.199 And not to say that those writers who lied about 30 00:02:10.319 --> 00:02:14.000 telling the truth were somehow groundbreaking in that field. I 31 00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:15.879 think they have been fraudulent memoirs for as long as 32 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:20.879 there have been memoirs. But it didn't sit well with me, 33 00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:25.879 and I wanted not to be hung up in those questions. 34 00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:29.280 So I went to the realm of fiction, where I 35 00:02:29.319 --> 00:02:33.039 can be more certain about the things that I'm trying 36 00:02:33.080 --> 00:02:35.039 to say the ways that I'm trying to say them, 37 00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:37.840 and not worry about whether I'm being accurate or truthful 38 00:02:37.879 --> 00:02:38.919 in the conventional sense. 39 00:02:39.439 --> 00:02:41.800 I mean, even Mark Twain, or maybe especially Mark Twain, 40 00:02:41.879 --> 00:02:47.520 was very let's say, colorful in his reconstruction of his 41 00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:50.800 life in his autobiography. I think there's also something that's 42 00:02:50.879 --> 00:02:55.280 kind of self indulgent about a memoir that isn't the 43 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:56.639 case when you're writing a novel. 44 00:02:57.639 --> 00:03:00.759 Oh, I mean, I know, I don't agree with that. 45 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:03.360 I mean, you could think of so many self indulgent novels. 46 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:06.039 But it's self indulgent in another way. I mean the 47 00:03:06.039 --> 00:03:09.439 way that a writer can abuse their readers by just 48 00:03:09.479 --> 00:03:11.680 going on and on about things that are really only 49 00:03:11.719 --> 00:03:13.759 of interest to the writer themselves, or in a way 50 00:03:13.800 --> 00:03:18.639 that ceases to engage with the reader entirely. But having 51 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:22.719 said that, and the memoir like invites you and almost 52 00:03:22.800 --> 00:03:25.759 like does not let you leave the party of self indulgence. 53 00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:28.159 And at the end of the well, not at the 54 00:03:28.199 --> 00:03:29.520 end of the day, the beginning of the day. It's 55 00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:32.520 not my story. It's not my story ten clear days. 56 00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:33.840 It's a story about my grandmother. 57 00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:36.240 Your novel is the first to take readers through the 58 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:39.680 final stages of pursuing the right to die. How would 59 00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:43.479 you summarize the book, which was, as noted, taken from 60 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:44.080 real life. 61 00:03:44.680 --> 00:03:49.360 In August twenty eighteen, my grandmother, who was eighty three 62 00:03:49.400 --> 00:03:53.479 at the time, had a heart attack and a stroke 63 00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:57.520 the same night, taken to the hospital, had a DNR, 64 00:03:59.159 --> 00:04:04.000 was operated on. Nonetheless, woke up the next day was 65 00:04:04.039 --> 00:04:08.800 told you're going to make him, and her first and 66 00:04:08.919 --> 00:04:14.800 abiding reaction was, why am I still here? There was 67 00:04:14.840 --> 00:04:19.360 a DNR, and she asked for what was at the 68 00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:27.680 time relatively new procedure in Canada, at least new legally speaking. 69 00:04:28.040 --> 00:04:32.279 It's called medical assistance and death made. And the doctor 70 00:04:32.279 --> 00:04:33.959 who was there said, you know, you can ask that, 71 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:36.519 but you're not a candidate because you're going to get better. 72 00:04:36.800 --> 00:04:40.480 You're not a candidate. My grandmother just said that's she 73 00:04:40.519 --> 00:04:42.639 didn't say, but she gave a look that said, you 74 00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:45.399 may very well think that you may very well be right, 75 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:49.439 which is her way of saying you may very well 76 00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:52.839 be wrong, Like that was just her manner of speaking. 77 00:04:54.399 --> 00:04:58.920 And she asked, and she asked, and then the doctor 78 00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:04.439 submitted to the request. The other doctors came in, the 79 00:05:04.519 --> 00:05:09.519 made doctors, and they started a clock ten days during 80 00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:14.959 which those doctors would decide. Now, when she asked there, 81 00:05:16.839 --> 00:05:18.199 there were all of us in the room. By all 82 00:05:18.199 --> 00:05:23.040 of us, I mean her children, her grandchildren, not every 83 00:05:23.120 --> 00:05:28.680 last one of us, but many of us. And I 84 00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:31.879 can't say it was exactly half, but roughly half of 85 00:05:31.959 --> 00:05:38.680 us had a census was coming and were behind her, 86 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:43.720 and the other half may or may not have had 87 00:05:43.720 --> 00:05:46.560 a sense that it was coming, but we're not behind her. 88 00:05:47.319 --> 00:05:51.920 So during that ten days we see all these forces 89 00:05:52.680 --> 00:05:55.439 acting against each other, with my grandmother at the center 90 00:05:55.560 --> 00:06:00.639 saying very very little. That's half the story. The other half, 91 00:06:01.759 --> 00:06:05.639 and it's these two halves that play up in each chapter. 92 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:09.639 The other half is the first forty years of her life, 93 00:06:09.639 --> 00:06:13.439 which began just before the war in a suburb of Budapest. 94 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:20.399 Included her survival of the war in hiding, included her 95 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:25.480 suddenly leaving Budapest for Vienna, suddenly leaving Vienna for North America, 96 00:06:26.759 --> 00:06:29.560 and starting this life here, which was in many ways 97 00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:31.879 an amazing life but in a place she never wanted 98 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:35.360 to be. So in the other half, we're looking at 99 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:37.560 these forty years and asking how did she come to 100 00:06:37.639 --> 00:06:40.519 this shocking request. 101 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:44.639 Did those family tensions persist after the events of the 102 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:45.360 book as well? 103 00:06:45.399 --> 00:06:49.439 They persists to this day. Speaking very frankly, I would 104 00:06:49.439 --> 00:06:52.279 say everybody in the family, well, I don't have to 105 00:06:52.319 --> 00:06:54.800 say it. Everybody in the family's happy I was able 106 00:06:54.800 --> 00:06:57.839 to publish this book, but not everybody's happy that the 107 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:04.160 book is out there. Part of that is because made 108 00:07:05.399 --> 00:07:09.879 is called in some circles medically assisted suicide, because suicide 109 00:07:10.079 --> 00:07:16.959 is counter to Jewish custom, Jewish law. Some of it 110 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:21.759 is just the taboo that exists around made because it is, 111 00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:26.160 if not adjacent, well, if not suicide itself, then seen 112 00:07:26.199 --> 00:07:31.920 as adjacent to it. So yeah, that's those tensions persist, 113 00:07:32.199 --> 00:07:35.480 and it was published just a couple of weeks ago. Here, 114 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:38.000 I wonder how long they'll last. 115 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:40.800 So zooming out for a second on what you said. 116 00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:44.560 The title of your book refers to Canada's mandatory ten 117 00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:47.720 day reflection period for medical assistance and dying. 118 00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:51.319 Could you tell us a little about that. Yeah, it's interesting. 119 00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:56.120 So there's made as it was legislated in twenty eighteen, 120 00:07:56.439 --> 00:07:59.959 there's made as it was practiced in my grandmother's case 121 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:03.839 in twenty eighteen, and there's made as it is legislated 122 00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:07.199 in practice today. And not one of them is like 123 00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:10.560 the other. And it's fascinating to me how much discrepancy 124 00:08:10.600 --> 00:08:14.399 there is between all these things. For example, one of 125 00:08:14.439 --> 00:08:17.839 the early readers of this book happened to be a 126 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:20.959 doctor who was on rotation at Sunnybrook Hospital where my 127 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:24.480 grandmother was in the mad department, which had taken on 128 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:26.800 this case. And she said, well, this must have happened. 129 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:29.759 That must have happened. I said, no, those things did 130 00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:33.320 not happen. The ten day waiting period, for example, is 131 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:36.360 no longer, as I understand, it's no longer in effect, 132 00:08:36.399 --> 00:08:38.000 it's a completely different process. 133 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:40.080 But in my. 134 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:44.320 Grandmother's case, which I think is a question, this is 135 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:48.399 what happened. She made the request and the doctors initiated 136 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:54.120 this ten clear day waiting period. And that term clear 137 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:57.159 day refers to a day that starts at twelve midnight. 138 00:08:58.080 --> 00:09:01.000 So my grandmother makes this request. Her first thought is, 139 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:02.799 but you can do it right away. They say no, 140 00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:06.360 it's ten days. And she says ten days. That's next Wednesday. 141 00:09:06.360 --> 00:09:08.440 And they said, well, actually no, it's next Thursday because 142 00:09:08.440 --> 00:09:11.840 it's ten clear days. And every time she would ask 143 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:15.120 them and she would put on her all her charm, 144 00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:18.960 which was considerable even in the hospital, even in her 145 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:25.399 hospital gown. She she was very forceful as a personality, 146 00:09:25.399 --> 00:09:28.799 but also very sweet in her delivery. And she kept 147 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:32.120 trying to whittle that that ten day period. You know, 148 00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:36.879 so that ten days was was for her, not for 149 00:09:36.919 --> 00:09:39.639 her to think about it as really for doctors to examine. 150 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:45.519 Was she was? She certain? So it was really a 151 00:09:45.559 --> 00:09:48.559 test of her resolve and was she lucid, was she 152 00:09:48.639 --> 00:09:53.639 thinking clearly? And the ten days was also a time 153 00:09:53.720 --> 00:09:56.759 for us as a family, though this was not the intention. 154 00:09:56.840 --> 00:09:59.200 I don't think it was a time for us as 155 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:05.559 a family to reflect on our relationship with our grandmother, 156 00:10:06.919 --> 00:10:10.559 which is a very clinical way of putting our love 157 00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:14.480 of our grandmother, our memories of our grandmother, and also 158 00:10:14.519 --> 00:10:19.320 this thing that we're facing, which even for those who 159 00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:22.240 were behind my grandmother, it's extremely scary. 160 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:27.240 It's almost like sitting shiva for someone who hasn't died yet. 161 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:37.320 The alternative title it is like that in that One 162 00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:39.159 of the things that strikes me about shiva is that 163 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:43.320 it really rings you out, Like seven days, you are 164 00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:48.200 so wiped out. By the end, you are so drained. 165 00:10:49.159 --> 00:10:53.519 It is excessive in some ways, or it feels excessive afterwards. 166 00:10:53.639 --> 00:10:56.639 It may not have felt like enough, but at the 167 00:10:56.679 --> 00:11:03.600 time again again, this this meal, these people, these prayers, 168 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:11.360 this room, and and by the last days. This is 169 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:16.519 something I described in the novel. We're talking about riddles, 170 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:25.519 were talking about the speed of light, We're talking about songs, music. 171 00:11:25.919 --> 00:11:30.399 It's we've gone to like a place where it did not. 172 00:11:31.679 --> 00:11:33.440 If you were to think of people in a room 173 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:37.120 morning in advance, you wouldn't think of them going to 174 00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:43.480 these seemingly tangential places. But we did. We were, we were, 175 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:46.320 we were outside time. Like that's that's how it felt. 176 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:48.679 We were outside time at at at that moment, I 177 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:51.120 had a four year old, four year old four month 178 00:11:51.159 --> 00:11:53.759 old daughter, and I had been attached to her on 179 00:11:53.759 --> 00:12:00.200 this particular schedule for the the initial months of her life, changing, feeding, sleeping, napping, walking, 180 00:12:02.759 --> 00:12:05.480 and all that stopped for that ten day period. Yeah, 181 00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:08.200 I was taken outside time and Shivaz like that as well, 182 00:12:08.279 --> 00:12:11.919 like everything that's going on just stops. I really I 183 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:14.039 appreciate that interpretation. 184 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:17.480 Enjoining the show, click like and subscribe. 185 00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:22.519 Your doctoral dissertation dealt with Holocaust fiction spanning three generations 186 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:25.440 and how these works go from being radical to more 187 00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:29.360 conservative over time. What sort of things did you notice. 188 00:12:29.720 --> 00:12:35.279 The fiction to describe that trajectory. Well, one of the 189 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:38.320 things I noticed, and I can give you a concrete example. 190 00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:41.000 I can think of the time or the book, and 191 00:12:41.080 --> 00:12:45.559 the place that I noticed it was that those who 192 00:12:45.639 --> 00:12:50.679 had been witnesses could say things that non witnesses could 193 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:58.159 never not only never say, never even contemplate saying so. 194 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:01.720 The example that I was thinking of just now comes 195 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:05.159 from a book called Fatelessness. The author is imre Kertez. 196 00:13:05.639 --> 00:13:08.799 He's a Hungarian writer. He was taken to the camps 197 00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:13.480 when he was fourteen years old, and he writes about 198 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:20.799 his experience that it was in lieu of his teenage years, 199 00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:23.919 in lieu of his entry into adulthood, in lieu of 200 00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:28.080 his education, that was what the camps were for him. 201 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:33.200 And when he leaves those camps, when he has liberated, 202 00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:36.080 when he's free, when he goes back to the regular world, 203 00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:44.399 he finds that nobody grasps what he has experienced. That 204 00:13:44.519 --> 00:13:48.440 in itself is not radical or new. But what he 205 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:53.039 says next I would say shocked me, and I think 206 00:13:53.080 --> 00:13:56.919 would shock anybody who read it. He said he misses it, 207 00:13:57.279 --> 00:14:03.679 He missed that world because that's where he was most himself. 208 00:14:04.559 --> 00:14:07.120 Those were what he called like the golden years of 209 00:14:07.159 --> 00:14:16.039 his youth. That's extremely fucked up. And that's not to 210 00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:20.519 say it's not true. It's it's I describe it that 211 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:23.960 like that because it shakes me up even thinking about it. 212 00:14:23.960 --> 00:14:26.120 It's hard to even say the words I feel. I 213 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:28.879 don't have the authority to say them. Only he does, 214 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:31.840 which is kind of what I'm saying in the dissertation. 215 00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:35.039 Those who live through it can see things in it 216 00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:38.399 that we can't see, can say things that we cannot say, 217 00:14:40.919 --> 00:14:45.399 And over time, the loss of that authority meant that 218 00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:48.679 the story that was so broad in the minds of 219 00:14:48.679 --> 00:14:51.759 those who had survived and witnessed just becomes narrower and 220 00:14:51.879 --> 00:14:58.360 narrower and narrower, as people who are our age can 221 00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:02.080 say less, have less the thought. I think that's changing 222 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:07.519 with the loss of witnesses. We no longer feel there, 223 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:13.799 we no longer feel them looking over our shoulder. I'd 224 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:17.759 say that that has in theory, meant that the field 225 00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:21.600 has opened up. I'd say in practice it's meant a 226 00:15:21.679 --> 00:15:26.039 lot of people are saying a lot of outrageous things, 227 00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:30.080 false things, because there's nobody there to correct that record. 228 00:15:30.519 --> 00:15:32.720 And that's been going on for quite a while. I'd 229 00:15:32.759 --> 00:15:34.039 say it's exploded recently. 230 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:37.799 The Holocaust looms in the background of your novel. Why 231 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:40.919 was it important to recount that aspect of your grandmother's past. 232 00:15:41.799 --> 00:15:45.759 My grandmother was nine, just turned nine in February nineteen 233 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:49.399 forty four. The Germans came in about a month later, 234 00:15:49.720 --> 00:15:53.159 actually a couple weeks after her birthday. For what I 235 00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:56.240 call in the dissertation, the direct witness, somebody who was there, 236 00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:58.919 not somebody who was in hiding. It's not a hierarchy, 237 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:03.120 it's just a distinction. For a direct witness, I think 238 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:07.519 that the Holocaust is at the center of their life forever. 239 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:13.600 For an indirect witness, somebody who isn't hiding, I think 240 00:16:13.639 --> 00:16:17.279 it's similarly at the center of their life. And for 241 00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:19.720 anyone who comes afterwards, it can be a very important 242 00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:22.639 factor in their life. It can be something that they 243 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:26.480 dedicate themselves to which they dedicate themselves. It's never going 244 00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:29.159 to be at the center. It's never going to be 245 00:16:32.919 --> 00:16:36.480 the thing that is tied to almost everything that follows afterwards, 246 00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:43.360 that you cannot displace. My grandmother could not, and I 247 00:16:43.399 --> 00:16:46.759 don't think ever sought to displace those experiences, and they 248 00:16:46.759 --> 00:16:57.279 were formative. She told me many stories. The thing that's 249 00:16:57.320 --> 00:17:00.440 coming to mind right now as an example is that 250 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:03.360 she as a child, I remembers looking in the mirror 251 00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:07.319 and trying to find the face of a jew in 252 00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:10.599 the mirror because she had seen in the paper this 253 00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:23.359 is what a jew looks like ugly hook knows, thick lips, sneering, pleagynous, 254 00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:30.039 not quite human beings. And she looked in the mirror 255 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:33.279 as a child six seven eight, And where is that person? 256 00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:37.079 Where is that person? How is that person me? She's 257 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:40.039 not saying I'm not that person. She's making the connection. 258 00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:48.039 That's when she's still a child. It's unimaginable to form 259 00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:53.240 one's idea of oneself in such a world and then 260 00:17:53.319 --> 00:17:57.039 just leave it behind at some future date. And it's 261 00:17:57.039 --> 00:17:59.000 not like the world was letting her leave it behind either, 262 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:02.480 to say that it was all quite so intense and 263 00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:06.319 d drastic as it was in her early years, but 264 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:07.319 it was never far away. 265 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:12.400 I know that a lot of direct witnesses survivors chose 266 00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:15.079 not to speak much about their experiences. Did you find 267 00:18:15.079 --> 00:18:17.160 that your grandmother was a little more open in that regard. 268 00:18:19.960 --> 00:18:25.480 I have one survivor among all my grandparents. I don't 269 00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:30.119 know how to compare it to others in along a range, 270 00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:33.240 for example, but I do know, like you said, that 271 00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:34.799 they are those who spoke and those who did not. 272 00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:38.359 I can compare it to a person I spoke with 273 00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:43.039 for my dissertation. It's a wonderful gentleman. And he said 274 00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:45.960 his children didn't ask him, and he didn't want to 275 00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:49.319 speak about it, and then when his grandchildren asked him, 276 00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:52.960 that's when he started to speak about it. I don't 277 00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:58.000 think my grandmother ever didn't speak about it. I know 278 00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:03.839 she had children who were interested. Let me rephrase that. 279 00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:08.279 I know that my grandmother didn't ever tuck it away 280 00:19:08.359 --> 00:19:16.359 or hide it. She spoke to her children about it. 281 00:19:16.359 --> 00:19:21.079 It was this. It was the central story of her life. 282 00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:24.680 And so when she talked to us as grandchildren, speaking 283 00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:26.720 about me and my brothers, I don't know the experience 284 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:29.319 of my cousins. She spoke to us about it as well. 285 00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:37.279 We didn't ask to hear about it. We were just 286 00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:39.880 told about it, and I feel very fortunate for that. 287 00:19:40.039 --> 00:19:43.039 Actually, in the book, your grandmother is often referred to 288 00:19:43.079 --> 00:19:46.799 as the patient, which for me created a fascinating rhetorical 289 00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:50.359 distance within a very intimate story. How did you arrive 290 00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:51.039 at that device? 291 00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:53.799 So that goes a bit to the first question about memoir. 292 00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:59.119 So initially I was writing this story trying to capture 293 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:04.240 this whole world my grandmother created. Really before I mentioned 294 00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:06.920 my four monthal daughter, for her, that was a motivation 295 00:20:07.240 --> 00:20:11.640 for others. Yes, but I kept thinking, this was a 296 00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:14.720 person who was so important in my life, my daughter. 297 00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:20.039 I had gotten to be with her, but not in 298 00:20:20.119 --> 00:20:23.319 ince she'll remember. What can I tell her? It felt 299 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:33.039 very urgent, and I was having trouble telling this story 300 00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:36.039 in a way that would matter to anybody else. Like 301 00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:38.440 you use the word inside baseball. Before we were talking, 302 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:41.599 it felt like inside baseball, like I could describe to 303 00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:46.240 the to the to the nth degree, the tablecloths, the chairs, 304 00:20:46.440 --> 00:20:54.359 the expressions, the garden, the traditions, but it wasn't cohering 305 00:20:54.359 --> 00:21:01.240 into anything that mattered to anybody but myself. And I 306 00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:06.720 realized that in order to write about my grandmother, I'd 307 00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:12.240 have to I could still call her granny as a character, 308 00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:15.920 but as a writer, I'd have to call her Mary back, missus, 309 00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:22.759 back the patient, so as to see her so as 310 00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:30.880 to understand her relationship to a reader, an initially disinterested reader, 311 00:21:32.200 --> 00:21:35.920 and so as to understand her relationship to us and 312 00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:41.480 her family in a way that really opened up the story, 313 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:48.440 because all of a sudden, I was writing about a 314 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:55.480 person and not just this person who was like sorry, 315 00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:58.519 so that all of a sudden, let me get this right. 316 00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:00.720 It opened up the story worry in the sense that 317 00:22:00.759 --> 00:22:07.440 I could write about fully formed character, all these different 318 00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:10.319 aspects of her as opposed to this character who almost 319 00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:15.920 lived inside me that I could barely describe. That's what 320 00:22:16.039 --> 00:22:20.960 That was a big decision, and it made the novel possible. 321 00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:25.279 I think there's also just from my perspective as a reader, 322 00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:28.559 when she's called patient, it sort of reminds me that 323 00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:32.039 this is a very medical context. That even though there 324 00:22:32.200 --> 00:22:34.920 all these stories going on, these interactions that are very 325 00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:38.880 much intimated, as I mentioned, and very emotional like, it's 326 00:22:38.920 --> 00:22:44.640 all taking place in this very sterile, cold, somewhat uncaring environment, 327 00:22:44.680 --> 00:22:45.640 which is a hospital. 328 00:22:46.359 --> 00:22:52.759 Emotionally, I am too close to that hospital, or rather 329 00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:56.720 I'm more comfortable in that hospital. I wouldn't say I'm 330 00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:01.440 emotionally sterile, but other people might. I would say that 331 00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:08.559 I'm cold or too prone to rational, to the rational 332 00:23:08.599 --> 00:23:13.079 as opposed to the other approaches to situations. But that's 333 00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:19.680 where I that's where I That's where I'm myself, for better, 334 00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:25.759 for mostly worse. There's another thing, though, and that is 335 00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:33.519 that my view is that to really get into a book. 336 00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:34.599 Is to. 337 00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:40.519 Go on a journey, and what I mean, more specifically 338 00:23:40.519 --> 00:23:45.440 by that is to walk a distance between yourself and 339 00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:49.400 the story that you're engaging with. And I have this 340 00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:52.599 belief difficult as it is that the longer the journey 341 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:57.400 you make, the more you invest in the book. So 342 00:23:57.440 --> 00:24:04.000 if I withhold the odd emotional cues, you supply them 343 00:24:04.039 --> 00:24:08.480 as the reader. The more you give to the story, 344 00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:11.759 the more the story means to you. That's my experience 345 00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:15.240 of reading. That's the way I prefer to write. 346 00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:18.640 I was thinking, Yeah, it's both like a very audacious 347 00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:21.279 approach but also I think a pretty effective one. I mean, 348 00:24:21.319 --> 00:24:25.759 I think it took me on a journey. Honestly, I 349 00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:27.599 had to read it in a few sittings, and yeah, 350 00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:29.480 I mean I was pretty emotional by the end of it. 351 00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:32.640 I mean it kind of reminded me of experiences that 352 00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:35.720 I've had, and you know, in other ways was also 353 00:24:35.799 --> 00:24:39.279 sort of different. I'm also sort of wondering about writing 354 00:24:39.319 --> 00:24:44.759 it from the perspective of a you know what do 355 00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:48.039 they call it the medical record officer, which I'm somewhat 356 00:24:48.039 --> 00:24:53.240 familiar with from charting, And I'm wondering, you know, what 357 00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:57.119 was research like for that or was that a did 358 00:24:57.119 --> 00:25:00.079 that give you a little literary license to go with it. 359 00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:02.759 I don't know, like that kind of it felt like 360 00:25:02.839 --> 00:25:06.519 that was a that the narrator was both very present 361 00:25:06.680 --> 00:25:09.599 and also very absent throughout the story. 362 00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:14.000 Wow, that's first of all, thank you very much. I 363 00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:21.599 I'm laughing because I'm I appreciate the idea that it 364 00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:25.400 that he has a paradoxical effect. That's what I That's 365 00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:29.400 one of the things I would hoping he would have. Yeah, 366 00:25:29.480 --> 00:25:33.079 it's uh. In some ways, the novel reads like a 367 00:25:33.079 --> 00:25:36.720 fantasia of a doctor's chart. The research was simple. My 368 00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:41.200 father almost every weekend that I can remember growing up, 369 00:25:41.480 --> 00:25:43.559 was sitting at the desk, charts in front of him, 370 00:25:43.960 --> 00:25:50.759 dictating into a dictaphone. Patient is, patient, presents with patient, etcetera, etcetera, 371 00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:54.960 et cetera. He's a rheumatologist. And so that's what was 372 00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:57.960 playing in my mind for this character that I completely 373 00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:01.640 made up. And yeah, I made them up, yes, so 374 00:26:01.640 --> 00:26:03.759 that I have license, but also in reference to the 375 00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:07.119 last answer I gave, so that I could tell the 376 00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:10.880 stories myself but at a distance, and so that I 377 00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:14.119 wasn't constantly dealing with this character Eric. And there is 378 00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:16.640 an Eric character in the book, and it's basically me, 379 00:26:17.519 --> 00:26:24.359 but I wasn't. I wasn't cheating. The author character allowed 380 00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:28.039 me again a distance from everyone in the family so 381 00:26:28.079 --> 00:26:31.200 that I could see them all clearly, all clearly, myself included. 382 00:26:31.240 --> 00:26:33.160 I wanted to be part of the story, but if 383 00:26:33.160 --> 00:26:35.400 I was also telling the story, it felt like I 384 00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:39.720 was playing too many It felt like playing a card trek, 385 00:26:39.720 --> 00:26:41.519 and I didn't want to do that. So I just 386 00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:46.039 put myself to the side, and I made the author 387 00:26:46.119 --> 00:26:50.160 the central narrator. Of course, there's a play there too, 388 00:26:50.319 --> 00:26:54.920 because I'm the author of then all. So it kind 389 00:26:54.920 --> 00:26:57.319 of goes back and forth with who this author character is, 390 00:26:57.799 --> 00:27:01.640 and there there's deliberately some mystery about at that. But 391 00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:04.559 as a device it is to get away from the 392 00:27:04.599 --> 00:27:07.839 family and to look at as objectively as possible, at 393 00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:11.799 least in the beginning stages, before he himself gets more 394 00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:14.039 emotionally drawn into the story. 395 00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:19.039 Have your experiences and maybe writing this book affected your 396 00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:21.039 views of medical assistance and dying. 397 00:27:21.640 --> 00:27:29.599 Yes, I used to have an agnostic view towards it. 398 00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:39.000 My view was that it is humane for those who 399 00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:45.920 need it. And while the psychiatric community seems very split, 400 00:27:46.599 --> 00:27:50.400 what was split when it was created and seems even 401 00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:56.039