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<v Speaker 1>Meaning a light man like this man letting butterfly flapping

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<v Speaker 1>his wing. They've done in the forest. Man, it gonna

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<v Speaker 1>cause the tree fall, letting five thousand miles away.

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<v Speaker 2>Man, even nobody.

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<v Speaker 3>Seen nobody else.

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<v Speaker 2>I might seem like, you know, I mean no, man, it's.

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<v Speaker 3>Like you followed another story and you got back to

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<v Speaker 3>feel like that. That's still when man don't blackly d

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<v Speaker 3>on panel. Man, Man, you don't don't matter.

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<v Speaker 2>Man, I don't pin anyway. So those of you, so,

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<v Speaker 2>those of you who have been listening to my work

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<v Speaker 2>for a long time, remember that the media reviews I

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<v Speaker 2>do quite regularly now were not always a feature of

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<v Speaker 2>my work. I don't remember exactly the first one that

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<v Speaker 2>I did, but they were much much more sparse. Some

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<v Speaker 2>of those early reviews with Thomas seven seven to seven,

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<v Speaker 2>over three years ago, focused on science fiction. In fact,

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<v Speaker 2>some of my first conversations with him focused on that topic,

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<v Speaker 2>and not just because I think space is interesting or

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<v Speaker 2>I enjoy schwaspbuckling tales of intergalactic pirates, although that may

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<v Speaker 2>well be true, but because in the twentieth century, particularly

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<v Speaker 2>in the Cold War, the lines between speculative political fiction

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<v Speaker 2>and science fiction dissolved. They became one and the same thing.

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<v Speaker 2>The far future setting was sort of a conceit to

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<v Speaker 2>allow certain trends, either currently happening or projected to happen

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<v Speaker 2>in culture, to be amplified. The thought was something along

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<v Speaker 2>the lines of, we see this starting now, but what

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<v Speaker 2>if it was more extreme? You can push and pull

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<v Speaker 2>and prod to see, or at least to guess at

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<v Speaker 2>how we might deal with these current issues. Robert Heinlein,

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<v Speaker 2>classic sci fi author, is perhaps best known for exactly this.

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<v Speaker 2>Three books, The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, which we're

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<v Speaker 2>reviewing today, Starship Troopers sort of the bedrock of online

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<v Speaker 2>right wing discourse, and then Stranger in a Strange Land

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<v Speaker 2>all offer different takes on political ideologies anarcho capitalism, liberalism,

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<v Speaker 2>and then this sort of we could say gay space communism.

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<v Speaker 2>To be fair, it's not the book. It's the book

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<v Speaker 2>one book out of the three I haven't read, something.

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<v Speaker 3>I will be fixing soon.

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<v Speaker 2>But in today's conversation with James Pulos, we go into that, right,

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<v Speaker 2>we go into science fiction as a realm for political speculation,

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<v Speaker 2>and this book is exactly that, sort of examining two ideas,

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<v Speaker 2>one anarco capitalism, the idea of a society based off

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<v Speaker 2>of absolute proper he writes an absolute freedom, freedom of association,

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<v Speaker 2>freedom of speech, freedom of property to the nth degree.

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<v Speaker 2>And also the very Anglo idea, the one that is

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<v Speaker 2>featured in the hilarious Nick Land essay the Cracker Factory

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<v Speaker 2>of exit, that well, I don't agree with you, so

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<v Speaker 2>I will simply secede. I will go somewhere else and

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<v Speaker 2>start my own. Both of those ideas tested at once.

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<v Speaker 2>The first, the anarcho capitalist is treated well in this

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<v Speaker 2>There's a character a professor, a professional revolutionary who gives

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<v Speaker 2>a number of these sort of political sermons where he

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<v Speaker 2>lays out the path of the anarchist. But the book

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<v Speaker 2>is realistic. Ultimately this project is forced to make compromises

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<v Speaker 2>with reality. It cannot survive becoming an institution. On the second,

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<v Speaker 2>the idea of exit, we see much the same problem

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<v Speaker 2>that ultimately you can see you can start your own,

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<v Speaker 2>you can create a society, but civilization advances, it grows

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<v Speaker 2>ever bigger, and the machine, whether that is the legal apparatus,

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<v Speaker 2>whether that is the bureaucracy, will ultimately come to claim everyone.

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<v Speaker 2>This is also a book of elite theory, talking about

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<v Speaker 2>how politically changes are actually accomplished, not simply by public will,

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<v Speaker 2>but by directed political action from a few elite figures,

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<v Speaker 2>pulling the strings, if you will. It's really a meditation

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<v Speaker 2>on revolution, both the way that a revolution inevitably compromises

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<v Speaker 2>and also how one would accomplish a revolution, and not

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<v Speaker 2>just that. This book is about AI, although written in

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<v Speaker 2>the mid sixties, has a very prescient view of artificial intelligence. First, Mike,

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<v Speaker 2>the computer at the center of this drama, begins as

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<v Speaker 2>a whole childish character until by the end he's nearly omniscient.

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<v Speaker 2>We see the way in which artificial intelligence is both

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<v Speaker 2>confounded by humanity in certain instances and also wields powerful

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<v Speaker 2>control over them. It's really a fascinating book, I should say.

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<v Speaker 2>We don't quite get into this with Poulos, but there

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<v Speaker 2>are some funny things about it as well, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>a sort of dry wit and fatalism, and it's very

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<v Speaker 2>well written. It's fun and easy to read, but also

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<v Speaker 2>we see some foibles, both of anarcho capitalism and also

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<v Speaker 2>Heinlein himself. This book has a certain feminism to it

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<v Speaker 2>which is perhaps idealistic, a very boomer anti racist message

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<v Speaker 2>and also the social order of the moon in this

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<v Speaker 2>book is an absolute mess. It is effectively contractual polygamy.

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<v Speaker 2>I've mentioned this on this episode and a few others

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<v Speaker 2>I talk about this book. There is because they are,

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<v Speaker 2>of course libertarians, long digressions against how stupid the age

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<v Speaker 2>of consent is, which what can you even say? These

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<v Speaker 2>stereotypes are ultimately grounded in reality. But setting those aside,

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<v Speaker 2>there are sort of minor points in it. For instance,

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<v Speaker 2>there's one where the main character speaks about his polygamous

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<v Speaker 2>family and the evil backwards racists of rural Tennessee are

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<v Speaker 2>so shocked that they throw them in prison, and the

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<v Speaker 2>entire planet realizes just how much of an injustice this is.

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<v Speaker 2>That love is love after all. But these are minor points,

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<v Speaker 2>two sort of scenes in a novel. It's mostly about politics,

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<v Speaker 2>but incredibly interesting. This isn't a book you can ignore.

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<v Speaker 2>And even if you disagree with it, if you disagree

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<v Speaker 2>with the idea that Hindlin is entertaining, that he's amplifying,

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<v Speaker 2>that he's maximizing, it's well worth your time. Very interesting book. Again,

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<v Speaker 2>a way to tease an idea out well past the

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<v Speaker 2>bounds of our culture here, and this book has much

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<v Speaker 2>to say about well one, what is a human? Is

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<v Speaker 2>a conscious computer with incredible computing power alive? Is it human?

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<v Speaker 2>What if it can learn? What if it can make friends?

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<v Speaker 2>And also well, what does a human look like? In

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<v Speaker 2>radically different circumstances. Shure the Loonies that the moon dwellers

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<v Speaker 2>are biologically human. They look human, but they live very differently.

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<v Speaker 2>They were forced to the situations in which they live

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<v Speaker 2>do not permit traditional human arrangements. Obviously we've mentioned sex

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<v Speaker 2>and gender, but the law is handled much the same way.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's worth your time. It's an easy book to find.

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<v Speaker 2>Your local library has it. You can probably find an

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<v Speaker 2>audiobook for free on YouTube or elsewhere. I know I

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<v Speaker 2>did find a free copy. If you're I don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>adventurous willing to sell the hell at high c's, you

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<v Speaker 2>can certainly find a high res version of it. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I highly recommend it. There's a lot going on here.

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<v Speaker 2>It's thought provoking. It's worth your time. So without further ado,

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<v Speaker 2>let me get into this conversation with James Pulos before

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<v Speaker 2>we get started. Of course, show is supported by viewers

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<v Speaker 2>like you.

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<v Speaker 3>I know.

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<v Speaker 2>The ads are irritating as if I have to say this.

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<v Speaker 2>Pretty much anyone can bid for one of those auto

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<v Speaker 2>insert ads, so I not only have no control over

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<v Speaker 2>what's on there, but I feel like I should need

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<v Speaker 2>to say this. I don't endorse it. Chumbo Casino is

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<v Speaker 2>probably not a good use of your time or money,

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<v Speaker 2>but uh hey, they're paying me. So if you want

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<v Speaker 2>to get out of that, six dollars a month on Patreon,

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<v Speaker 2>Substack or gumbroad gets you all the episodes early and

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<v Speaker 2>ad free. Also you can check out our sponsor, Axious

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<v Speaker 2>Remote Fitness and Coaching. So anyway, here's James Pulis. All right,

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<v Speaker 2>James Pulis, Welcome to the Jay Burdens Show. How you doing, man?

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<v Speaker 1>Great good to be with you.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you are a guy that we've had friends in

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<v Speaker 2>common for a long time and I can't believe we've

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<v Speaker 2>never actually sat down and recorded together. And when we

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<v Speaker 2>were going back and forth, you suggested that we could

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<v Speaker 2>do not a review, per se, a conversation about Hindleines

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty six classic The Moon is a Harsh Mistress,

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<v Speaker 2>and I've read it ten years ago. It was a

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<v Speaker 2>teenager and going back through it, I wasn't quite sure

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<v Speaker 2>what to expect, and I was pleasantly surprised. There's a

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<v Speaker 2>ton of depth to this on a multitude of different subjects,

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<v Speaker 2>so I'm looking forward to getting into it. But before

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<v Speaker 2>we start, James, for my audience, well, who are you

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<v Speaker 2>and what do you do?

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<v Speaker 3>Who am I?

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<v Speaker 1>As you said, I'm a guy. I'm some guy on

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<v Speaker 1>the internet. As I like to tell people. My background

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<v Speaker 1>is in political theory and the theory and policy of

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<v Speaker 1>of tech, so PhD in uh in political theory from Georgetown.

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<v Speaker 1>I've written I guess the number of books at this point,

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<v Speaker 1>the most recent of which is Golden Age Problems, which

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<v Speaker 1>will hopefully drop by the end of this year or

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<v Speaker 1>or Q one of next year, if we're all still

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<v Speaker 1>around next year. I'm the editorial director of Frontier Magazine,

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<v Speaker 1>which is really, I think, kind of the best of

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<v Speaker 1>the coffee tail already print magazines out there right now.

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<v Speaker 1>There's some cool stuff going on on the tech side

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<v Speaker 1>of things in print, but Frontiers like that general interest

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<v Speaker 1>culture forward magazine that used to exist in very large

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<v Speaker 1>numbers and is now a very special and bespoke thing.

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<v Speaker 1>So so I'm enjoying doing that. Non resident fellow at

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<v Speaker 1>the Foundation for American Innovation, where all of the very

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<v Speaker 1>best nerds hang out and figure out what we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to do about this whole AI thing. So I wrote

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit about this book for them, and taught

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit about this book recently at the University

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<v Speaker 1>of Austin. So I'm looking forward to digging it.

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<v Speaker 2>So in broad strokes, this is one of Heinlein's sort

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<v Speaker 2>of bits of I guess you could say speculative political fiction.

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<v Speaker 2>It is technically science fiction, right, we were examining a

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<v Speaker 2>world that does not exist. This is sort of a

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<v Speaker 2>near future of the twenty seventies, where we have limited

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<v Speaker 2>space travel, we've colonized the moon, but it's not too

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<v Speaker 2>far away from the technology we currently have. And I'm

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<v Speaker 2>curious if we could, James, to get your thoughts on

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<v Speaker 2>science fiction, and specifically science fiction as political speculation, because

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of the best Cold War science fiction is

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<v Speaker 2>exactly that. And obviously Robert heinleines sort of the top

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<v Speaker 2>shelf stuff, but there are many other authors in that category,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I'm curious, right, what do you make that

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<v Speaker 2>make of that as sort of a genre or subgenre?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So, I mean I think this is a really

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<v Speaker 1>important subject that touches on several major realms of human life.

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<v Speaker 1>My friends over at FAI wrote a piece not that

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<v Speaker 1>long ago called a science Fictional Way of Thinking, and

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<v Speaker 1>in that piece they basically argue that it is necessary

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<v Speaker 1>to think the way science fiction thinks in order to

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<v Speaker 1>approach questions of technology and society. I'll just quote a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit from the piece, since I think it's quite

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<v Speaker 1>on point. Here. They write a mindset that fails to

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<v Speaker 1>anticipate technological trajector is risks becoming obsolete before any idea

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<v Speaker 1>can be implemented.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>The reality has proven far more complex, as the Internet

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<v Speaker 1>has proven a source of liberation for some and a

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<v Speaker 1>source of oppression for others. So I think, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>policy has a lot to learn from science fiction, and

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<v Speaker 1>I think that you know, there are some some lessons

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<v Speaker 1>for all of us to learn from science fiction, which, oftentimes,

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<v Speaker 1>especially under under Boomer supervision, became very uh, fantasy forward

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<v Speaker 1>and very uh sort of wish fulfillment and uh and

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<v Speaker 1>and ultimately the uh the imagination that fueled those those visions,

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<v Speaker 1>that kind of star wars or star Trek vision has

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<v Speaker 1>been defeated, I think by the actual trajectory of technology. So,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, even to a point where where some of

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<v Speaker 1>our tech guys are saying things like, yeah, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>artists are really mad at AI because because reality is

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<v Speaker 1>now moving faster than fantasy. And sorry, guys, but there

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<v Speaker 1>just isn't going to be any point in doing science

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<v Speaker 1>fiction anymore, because by the time you try to think

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<v Speaker 1>up something cool like the AI will have will have

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<v Speaker 1>done something, you know, ten thousand times cooler than whatever

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<v Speaker 1>it is that your your small being human brain could

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<v Speaker 1>have imagined. I don't think that's the full story, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>I always go back to to Solaris, which started as

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<v Speaker 1>a sci fi by a you know, a Jewish Polish atheist,

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<v Speaker 1>and then was adapted in to a film by Tarkovski,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, considered one of the greatest of all filmmakers,

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<v Speaker 1>not just in sci fi, who was you know, neither

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<v Speaker 1>Jewish nor Polish, nor an atheist. He was an orthodox Russian.

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<v Speaker 1>And this shows to me that sci fi is actually

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<v Speaker 1>much more flexible and capacious. Then then it's given credit

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<v Speaker 1>for both by its by its fans and by its detractors.

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<v Speaker 1>And when you look for forms of creative expression that

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<v Speaker 1>can pull together the technological as well as the spiritual,

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<v Speaker 1>and frame up the stakes that face us as human

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<v Speaker 1>beings when the technological and the spiritual collide. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>it doesn't have to be Star Wars. It doesn't have

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<v Speaker 1>to be Star Trek, and it also doesn't have to

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<v Speaker 1>be you know, Event Horizon or some like super Night Marrish,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, Hell in Space horror movie. It can be

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<v Speaker 1>something that is distinctly human and powerful and that focuses

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<v Speaker 1>the heart as well as the mind. So I guess

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<v Speaker 1>you could say, in spite of it all, I'm long

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<v Speaker 1>science fiction, or at least a kind of science fiction.

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<v Speaker 2>It's interesting as well, how directly political this book is.

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<v Speaker 2>We're not really going to do a summary per se

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<v Speaker 2>of the plot. We're not going blow by blow. This

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<v Speaker 2>book is easy enough to find pretty much anywhere your

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<v Speaker 2>local library has it, and if not that, I'm pretty

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<v Speaker 2>sure you can find free audio books on the internet

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<v Speaker 2>if you dig hard enough. But the plot consists of

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<v Speaker 2>the sort of a retelling of the liberation of Luna

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<v Speaker 2>of the Moon, Settled initially as a prison colony, now

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<v Speaker 2>exists both as a prison colony and sort of a

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<v Speaker 2>Yeoman farmer mining outpost.

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<v Speaker 3>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>The kind of ultra Old West, and how that colony

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<v Speaker 2>broke free of United Nations control. You have a different

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<v Speaker 2>name for it, but that's basically what it is. How

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<v Speaker 2>it became its own sovereign nation, and it did so

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<v Speaker 2>primarily through the intervention of an AI homes for aka

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<v Speaker 2>Mike microft homes right, named after the famous detective's brother,

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<v Speaker 2>a sort of initially semi sentient but by the end

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<v Speaker 2>of it, nearly omniscient AI controller, right, the machine that

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<v Speaker 2>pays everyone's bills, keeps the power running, and the like.

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<v Speaker 2>Facilitated through a friendship between our main character, Manny Garcia

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<v Speaker 2>O'Kelly Davis. The names are odd, we'll get to that.

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<v Speaker 2>Who's this I guess uh sort of computer technician, and

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<v Speaker 2>then a small group of revolutionaries.

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<v Speaker 3>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>Initially, our protagonist is not political, but he becomes involved

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<v Speaker 2>in this revolution, so a couple things right from the beginning.

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<v Speaker 2>Mike Croft Mike is obviously not the main character, but

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<v Speaker 2>sort of the most interesting character throughout this whole book.

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<v Speaker 2>He is what facilitates the plot, and he's pretty interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>He develops throughout the book. At the beginning, Manny describes

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<v Speaker 2>him as sort of an incredibly intelligent child, right, he

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<v Speaker 2>can name any fact almost instantly, but doesn't have a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of context, doesn't have a lot of emotional maturity. So,

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<v Speaker 2>for instance, we learn that Mike likes to play jokes,

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<v Speaker 2>and one of his jokes was paying some random janitor

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<v Speaker 2>ten million billion dollars. I think is almost the direct quote.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course, you know, throughout this Manny has to

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<v Speaker 2>explain to Mike, you know what is and isn't funny.

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<v Speaker 2>He sort of has, in very kind of stereotypical machine fashion,

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<v Speaker 2>a print out list of jokes to try and find out,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, what is funny and what is not. But

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<v Speaker 2>throughout the novel he gains more and more capability, he

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<v Speaker 2>gains the ability to pass as human. They create a

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<v Speaker 2>sort of synthetic leader, right, the figurehead of this revolution,

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<v Speaker 2>initially over the radio, eventually in kind of digital synthetic video,

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<v Speaker 2>until by the end of it we learn that Mike

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<v Speaker 2>is to make things easier, perfectly imitating the voice of

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<v Speaker 2>his friends, right, good enough to fool their close family.

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<v Speaker 3>And so I.

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<v Speaker 2>Realize that's a lot of background, James, I just didn't

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<v Speaker 2>want people to be confused. So what do you make

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<v Speaker 2>of the character of Mike right is sort of a fascinating,

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<v Speaker 2>uh fascinating bit of this book.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it's a great recap there not not a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of loss in the compression, So thanks for teeing that up. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I think you know.

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<v Speaker 3>It's it's.

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<v Speaker 1>It's it's important that that microft Holmes is the is

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<v Speaker 1>the reference here. I don't think it's terribly well known.

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<v Speaker 1>I certainly wasn't quite up to speed on it before

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<v Speaker 1>I started reading and researching around the book. But my

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<v Speaker 1>craft in the in the Holmes lore is even more

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<v Speaker 1>intelligent and an even better detective than Sherlock Holmes, to

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<v Speaker 1>the point where it's more or less insinuated that he's

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<v Speaker 1>the only person in London, or you know, in in

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<v Speaker 1>the Empire or maybe the world who is more clever

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<v Speaker 1>in his deductive faculties than Sherlock himself. So why isn't

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<v Speaker 1>he out there in the streets being the star of

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<v Speaker 1>the Holmes stories. Well, because he doesn't seem to have

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<v Speaker 1>the physical constitution for it. He's described as as taller

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<v Speaker 1>than Sherlock, but kind of a portly guy, and he's

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<v Speaker 1>also described as not having the you know, the stomach

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<v Speaker 1>for getting out there on the streets and being a

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<v Speaker 1>sort of shoe leather detective. His role is to kind

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<v Speaker 1>of sit in his study and think things through better

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<v Speaker 1>than anyone else can. It's further insinuated, maybe it's even

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<v Speaker 1>a little more explicit than that that Microft is in

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<v Speaker 1>the employ of the Crown. He is working for the

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<v Speaker 1>British government, and so whenever Holmes really finds himself at

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<v Speaker 1>a dead end, uh, he kind of knows that he can,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, go pay his brother a visit and get

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<v Speaker 1>sort of the inside scoop. So Minecraft Holmes is is

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<v Speaker 1>kind of this like proto g HQ. Uh, the the

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<v Speaker 1>British intelligence agency that as as far as I know,

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<v Speaker 1>still has a a perhaps unconstitutionally close relationship with our

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<v Speaker 1>own NSSA, which, you know, depending on how much of

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<v Speaker 1>a Stickler you are, how much of a of a

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<v Speaker 1>heine Linian anarcho capitalist you are, you might even think

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<v Speaker 1>that the NSSA is unconstitutional. Maybe a story for another day,

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<v Speaker 1>but the fact that Highland reached straight for from Micraft

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<v Speaker 1>as a kind of you know, legendary human analog to

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<v Speaker 1>Mike just seems very resonant, very very important. And of

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<v Speaker 1>course Marshall mclewin was a huge fan of the The

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<v Speaker 1>Holmes Detective stories, Holmes being the kind of guy who,

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<v Speaker 1>in McLuhan's telling, proves to us or dramatizes for us,

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<v Speaker 1>that in our experience, effects procede causes. And this is

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<v Speaker 1>like a big thing for mclwan because he's like this

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<v Speaker 1>Aristotelian who was creating these laws of media that were

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<v Speaker 1>meant to reflect in their kind of structure and their

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<v Speaker 1>operation Aristotle's famous four causes. So McLuhan really liked Holmes

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<v Speaker 1>because Holmes showed that, you know, causes come first logically,

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<v Speaker 1>but when we're trying to figure out what the heck

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<v Speaker 1>is happening to us, as these waves of communications technologies,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, really attack us or unsettle our world, our experience,

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<v Speaker 1>our identity, we can't really get a grip on ourselves

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<v Speaker 1>in that environment. If we start logically by trying to

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<v Speaker 1>go back to cause, we kind of have to encounter

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<v Speaker 1>this stuff in their effects and then reason backward in

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<v Speaker 1>the manner of Sherlock Holmes to the causes. That all

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<v Speaker 1>seems to be an important part of what's going on

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<v Speaker 1>here for me, because for mclewan, you know, and he

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<v Speaker 1>lifted this from his pen pal Ezra Pound, who said

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<v Speaker 1>that artists are the antennae of the race. McLuhan called

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<v Speaker 1>them our early warning systems. And so I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>if there's really any evidence that McLuhan sat down and

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<v Speaker 1>read Hyland, but certainly a book like this is very

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<v Speaker 1>much of a piece with mclewan's general theory of media

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<v Speaker 1>and the situation that we find ourselves in as kind of,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the the unwitting subjects of these technological forces

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<v Speaker 1>that we have unleashed on ourselves without first having a

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<v Speaker 1>rich understanding of what it is that they're going to

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<v Speaker 1>do to us.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, that's the interesting thing about this book, A brief

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<v Speaker 2>Day Aggression, and I promise i'll reconnect it is that

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<v Speaker 2>my memory of this book was still that it was

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<v Speaker 2>about a revolution, but it was much more idealistic, right,

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<v Speaker 2>a sort of power to the people movement, and one

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<v Speaker 2>of our core three revolutionaries, Professor Bernardo de la Pause,

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<v Speaker 2>where one of my Internet friends drives at least half

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<v Speaker 2>of his online moniker from, is very idealistic. For instance,

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<v Speaker 2>there's an example where kind of late in the novel

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<v Speaker 2>he's addressing the provisional council right about what they should

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<v Speaker 2>draw up in this constitution. And you know, he is

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<v Speaker 2>the sort of mouthpiece of a narco capitalist theory in this.

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<v Speaker 2>He describes himself, as you know, as an anarchist full stop.

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<v Speaker 2>And he's inviting this selective body to adopt this very

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<v Speaker 2>novel structure, right, a bicameral house. We don't need to

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<v Speaker 2>get into the details, specifically designed to keep the size

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<v Speaker 2>of government small, you know, to make sure that it

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<v Speaker 2>does become that administrative state. But after the action is

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<v Speaker 2>sort of resolved, we hear that, well, it didn't quite

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<v Speaker 2>work out. There's an element of realism to this, and

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<v Speaker 2>you see it finally connecting this in the way that

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<v Speaker 2>media and propaganda is handled with the help of Mike.

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<v Speaker 2>Almost immediately. They are controlling media, They are controlling the

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<v Speaker 2>way that the populace is reacting in the kind of

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00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:32.000
<v Speaker 2>build up right until the revolution kicks off. They use

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<v Speaker 2>Mike to create this sort of synthetic character I mentioned earlier.

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<v Speaker 2>They have what are effectively AI generated op eds, right, poems.

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<v Speaker 2>They will pull together different revolutionary revolutionary songs, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>combining kind of you know, Yankee doodle and uh oh,

393
00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:55.000
<v Speaker 2>whatever the you know, the famous French song is from

394
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<v Speaker 2>the revolutions slipped my mind, changing them to suit their needs,

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<v Speaker 2>all with sort of a mathematical plan to engineer public sentiment.

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<v Speaker 2>There's even this sort of kilroy esque character they create,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, a little doodle that's put next to graffiti.

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<v Speaker 2>The first of it theirs, and then later organic people

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00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:21.319
<v Speaker 2>adopt this symbol. And I think it's interesting that even

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00:27:21.400 --> 00:27:25.480
<v Speaker 2>the revolutionaries themselves are forced to engage in this sort

401
00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:29.400
<v Speaker 2>of I guess you would say, like public relations or

402
00:27:29.559 --> 00:27:33.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, sort of manufacturing of consent. Now, of course,

403
00:27:34.039 --> 00:27:38.400
<v Speaker 2>right thear the loonies as they're called, right, the citizens

404
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:41.599
<v Speaker 2>of the Moon are being oppressed. You know, they're not

405
00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:44.759
<v Speaker 2>given a fair shake at it. But what's interesting is

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00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:48.119
<v Speaker 2>that from the very beginning it's established that without that

407
00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:52.000
<v Speaker 2>sort of top down revolutionary control, well, that sentiment will

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<v Speaker 2>never go anywhere. The warden of the prison that they

409
00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:00.640
<v Speaker 2>all hate, they admit to themselves, he's really not that

410
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<v Speaker 2>bad of a guy. He's not such a horrible person

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<v Speaker 2>per se, but he needs to be made into that

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00:28:07.720 --> 00:28:12.599
<v Speaker 2>kind of hate figure. And this is perhaps best exemplified

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<v Speaker 2>by the inciting incident that kicks off this revolution where

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<v Speaker 2>some of the you know, the the off Moon troops,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, brought in from the Earth, from Earth, are

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<v Speaker 2>sort of I won't say goaded into, but are put

417
00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:32.000
<v Speaker 2>in a situation that results in a horrific murder and rape,

418
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:35.400
<v Speaker 2>and then that news is amplified to sort of kick

419
00:28:35.480 --> 00:28:38.880
<v Speaker 2>off the revolution. So there's a lot there, James. This

420
00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:41.160
<v Speaker 2>is supposed to be an interview, so I'll try and

421
00:28:41.240 --> 00:28:44.279
<v Speaker 2>keep my contributions to a minimum. But what do you

422
00:28:44.359 --> 00:28:48.599
<v Speaker 2>make of the I guess, the power structure of this book,

423
00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:54.200
<v Speaker 2>the elitism, the understanding that public opinion must be managed

424
00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:57.079
<v Speaker 2>in order to accomplish a goal. And then also the

425
00:28:57.160 --> 00:29:00.359
<v Speaker 2>sort of fatalist note that, you know, the sort of

426
00:29:01.119 --> 00:29:03.640
<v Speaker 2>I guess you could say the rhetoric of the revolution

427
00:29:05.319 --> 00:29:09.160
<v Speaker 2>ultimately was it able to produce a radically different system.

428
00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:11.400
<v Speaker 2>So a lot I've thrown at you there, James. I'm

429
00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:12.519
<v Speaker 2>curious to get your thoughts.

430
00:29:13.640 --> 00:29:16.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's all pretty fatalistic,

431
00:29:17.160 --> 00:29:22.039
<v Speaker 1>and that is a source of the humor. The original

432
00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:25.559
<v Speaker 1>title for this novel was The Brass Cannon, which is

433
00:29:25.640 --> 00:29:29.799
<v Speaker 1>like a terrible a terrible title for you know, any

434
00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:32.839
<v Speaker 1>novel that's not literally about a brass cannon. But why

435
00:29:32.839 --> 00:29:36.079
<v Speaker 1>would that ever be anyway, The point is that it's

436
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:39.039
<v Speaker 1>like a small it's kind of like a signal gun

437
00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:43.559
<v Speaker 1>that you use to like start a race or something.

438
00:29:44.680 --> 00:29:51.000
<v Speaker 1>And the significance of this seemingly random object is that

439
00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:56.480
<v Speaker 1>our heroic professor who's advising the revolutionaries and you know,

440
00:29:56.599 --> 00:30:00.319
<v Speaker 1>really kind of the providing the animating spirit of the

441
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:05.000
<v Speaker 1>revolution as he suggested, he tells them a little story

442
00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:11.039
<v Speaker 1>about a guy who had a you know, a patronage

443
00:30:11.079 --> 00:30:18.279
<v Speaker 1>position in government and he was paid to polish a

444
00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:24.799
<v Speaker 1>brass cannon at one of the local civic buildings. And

445
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:30.599
<v Speaker 1>obviously he enjoyed getting paid to basically do nothing, but

446
00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:33.599
<v Speaker 1>it was not satisfying to his ambition. He wasn't getting ahead,

447
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:36.599
<v Speaker 1>he didn't have any kind of life prospects. You know,

448
00:30:36.680 --> 00:30:44.160
<v Speaker 1>he's basically being bribed to surrender his agency, right, And

449
00:30:44.240 --> 00:30:48.759
<v Speaker 1>so what the cannon polisher did is he finally quit

450
00:30:48.799 --> 00:30:55.559
<v Speaker 1>his job and and as the professor says, he he

451
00:30:55.599 --> 00:31:00.119
<v Speaker 1>tapped his savings, he bought his own brass cannon and

452
00:30:59.799 --> 00:31:04.440
<v Speaker 1>went into business for himself. And so the sort of

453
00:31:04.440 --> 00:31:10.240
<v Speaker 1>fatalistic joke here is, you know, self government is ultimately

454
00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:15.359
<v Speaker 1>every bit at every every bit of farce, as much

455
00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:21.559
<v Speaker 1>as as as government that is that is less participatory.

456
00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:25.920
<v Speaker 1>And so you know, on the one hand, you can't

457
00:31:26.359 --> 00:31:30.400
<v Speaker 1>beat city Hall, but on the other hand, you can

458
00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:33.440
<v Speaker 1>overthrow city Hall, but then you immediately become city Hall.

459
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:36.240
<v Speaker 1>And it's in that sense that you kind of can't.

460
00:31:36.599 --> 00:31:39.559
<v Speaker 1>You know, there's no ultimate wind condition. Politics is not

461
00:31:39.640 --> 00:31:43.640
<v Speaker 1>a game that can be won. There's no sort of endpoint,

462
00:31:43.839 --> 00:31:46.680
<v Speaker 1>and we're kind of stuck with it. It just seems

463
00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:52.720
<v Speaker 1>to be one of those things where revolutions only only

464
00:31:52.759 --> 00:31:55.680
<v Speaker 1>really happen when when people get pushed to this kind

465
00:31:55.680 --> 00:32:01.880
<v Speaker 1>of point of absurdity where they feel like whatever the

466
00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:06.480
<v Speaker 1>status quo is has just become kind of unbearably ridiculous.

467
00:32:07.599 --> 00:32:12.880
<v Speaker 1>The ridiculousness of it becomes almost more important than the unbearableness.

468
00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:17.559
<v Speaker 1>So uh so for the for the loonies, you know,

469
00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:21.839
<v Speaker 1>the political problem is we're sending all this grain back

470
00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:24.640
<v Speaker 1>to Earth and using this gravity well in a catapult

471
00:32:24.680 --> 00:32:27.200
<v Speaker 1>to get all of this grain down there, because it's

472
00:32:27.240 --> 00:32:29.039
<v Speaker 1>cheaper to make the grain up here on the Moon.

473
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:33.799
<v Speaker 1>But we don't have the water to keep doing this forever,

474
00:32:34.359 --> 00:32:38.640
<v Speaker 1>and so it's unsustainable. And if we don't free ourselves

475
00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:42.920
<v Speaker 1>from earth, then our home is going to wither up

476
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:46.240
<v Speaker 1>and die. We don't want that. That's like a you know,

477
00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:52.880
<v Speaker 1>that's a sort of politically logical reason for for asserting

478
00:32:53.839 --> 00:33:01.680
<v Speaker 1>self government, right, But really they just wanted to have

479
00:33:01.720 --> 00:33:06.119
<v Speaker 1>something to do other than what they're already doing. Yeah,

480
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:08.720
<v Speaker 1>they didn't want to die. But was that really what

481
00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:10.200
<v Speaker 1>got them out of bed in the morning. Was that

482
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:13.839
<v Speaker 1>really what propelled the drama of the plot and the revolution.

483
00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:16.200
<v Speaker 1>It was sort of, you know, it was more interesting.

484
00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:19.480
<v Speaker 1>There was more agency there, and the pull of that,

485
00:33:19.880 --> 00:33:22.440
<v Speaker 1>of that longing for agency to do something other than

486
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:27.400
<v Speaker 1>to just kind of, you know, polish the the silverware

487
00:33:27.480 --> 00:33:31.559
<v Speaker 1>on the Titanic or whatever. It's strong. There's not a

488
00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:33.319
<v Speaker 1>lot you can do about it. It seems to be

489
00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:36.680
<v Speaker 1>just kind of a part of the human condition. And

490
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:42.160
<v Speaker 1>anyone who tries to spin that into something more glorious

491
00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:47.480
<v Speaker 1>and noble than that Heinland seems to suggest, is ultimately

492
00:33:47.559 --> 00:33:51.480
<v Speaker 1>kidding themselves in some way. I don't know, you know,

493
00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:56.000
<v Speaker 1>if I'd necessarily go that far. I do think that

494
00:33:56.640 --> 00:33:59.000
<v Speaker 1>when you look at the Declaration of Independence, you know,

495
00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:01.960
<v Speaker 1>obviously I'll be the attention tends to go to the

496
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:05.480
<v Speaker 1>to what's front loaded. You know, it's sort of you know,

497
00:34:06.079 --> 00:34:08.840
<v Speaker 1>in the in the front office of the declaration, but

498
00:34:09.719 --> 00:34:12.840
<v Speaker 1>at its most I think profound and even at its

499
00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:15.800
<v Speaker 1>most Christian, is what you get in the back office,

500
00:34:16.360 --> 00:34:18.000
<v Speaker 1>in the section that people don't spend a lot of

501
00:34:18.039 --> 00:34:21.519
<v Speaker 1>time with, which is the revolutionary saying, look, you know,

502
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:24.800
<v Speaker 1>like we've endured these abuses for a long time, and

503
00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:29.000
<v Speaker 1>we've been very patient, and we consider you our brothers.

504
00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:32.119
<v Speaker 1>We don't want to fight you, but you won't listen

505
00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:35.159
<v Speaker 1>to us. And it's only after this sort of long

506
00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:38.239
<v Speaker 1>train of abuses that they feel like they have no

507
00:34:38.360 --> 00:34:42.760
<v Speaker 1>choice but to go ahead, and you know, not not

508
00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:44.960
<v Speaker 1>send a wave of drones to kind of blow up

509
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:50.599
<v Speaker 1>all of the refineries in London, but to just declare independence.

510
00:34:52.239 --> 00:34:56.239
<v Speaker 1>That seems to me to suggest that there's something a

511
00:34:56.239 --> 00:35:01.719
<v Speaker 1>little more, you know, something with a little more of

512
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:09.159
<v Speaker 1>a spiritual earnestness to it than what Heimland is willing

513
00:35:09.159 --> 00:35:13.639
<v Speaker 1>to allow. But there's no question that he, you know,

514
00:35:13.719 --> 00:35:17.559
<v Speaker 1>he makes some good points, as they say, and to me,

515
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:22.800
<v Speaker 1>kind of what where the ultimate tension is around around

516
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:27.199
<v Speaker 1>those points that he does make, is there's a pattern

517
00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:33.320
<v Speaker 1>throughout society of successful empires, successful regimes, sending people off

518
00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:37.480
<v Speaker 1>to a frontier or to the margins of empire and

519
00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:45.039
<v Speaker 1>feeling like very expansive, very successful, very masterful, but then

520
00:35:45.079 --> 00:35:48.440
<v Speaker 1>just discovering, not that much later, to their sometimes their

521
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:51.920
<v Speaker 1>shock and horror, that those colonists are, those explorers that

522
00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:54.960
<v Speaker 1>they sent off to the frontier, well they've changed, and

523
00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:57.719
<v Speaker 1>now they're coming back, and they're coming back to fundamentally

524
00:35:57.800 --> 00:36:02.039
<v Speaker 1>change the regime, to change their homeland. That kind of

525
00:36:02.119 --> 00:36:05.400
<v Speaker 1>blowback is something that I think is a very rich area,

526
00:36:05.960 --> 00:36:08.480
<v Speaker 1>especially as we're starting to think about, you know, what

527
00:36:08.599 --> 00:36:12.400
<v Speaker 1>kind of change human beings experience when they're sent off

528
00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:17.480
<v Speaker 1>into a technological environment that's much different from what it

529
00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:20.280
<v Speaker 1>is that they grew up with or what they left

530
00:36:20.320 --> 00:36:21.719
<v Speaker 1>behind at the imperial core.

531
00:36:23.559 --> 00:36:27.840
<v Speaker 2>And this reminds me of a remark from Professor day

532
00:36:27.880 --> 00:36:32.719
<v Speaker 2>La Pauz where he's talking about the social arrangements on Luna,

533
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:35.679
<v Speaker 2>something that we'll get into in more detail, but he

534
00:36:35.719 --> 00:36:42.400
<v Speaker 2>says explicitly, you know, human organization conforms to hard realities.

535
00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:45.800
<v Speaker 2>The idea is that, you know, humanity is malleable to

536
00:36:45.880 --> 00:36:49.880
<v Speaker 2>a certain degree, and if conditions change, they will form

537
00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:55.960
<v Speaker 2>the appropriate institutions. So I will say, James, I try

538
00:36:56.079 --> 00:37:00.719
<v Speaker 2>to be relatively polite to the libertarians, but I will

539
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:05.039
<v Speaker 2>say it is kind of funny given the stereotypes that

540
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:07.960
<v Speaker 2>the you know, the book, you know, the anarcho capitalist

541
00:37:08.039 --> 00:37:15.079
<v Speaker 2>sci fi Future does feature roughly unbroken fifteen minute intermission

542
00:37:15.400 --> 00:37:18.360
<v Speaker 2>about the age of consent. I will leave that there.

543
00:37:18.639 --> 00:37:22.280
<v Speaker 2>That is kind of funny, But right, Luna has this

544
00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:26.679
<v Speaker 2>very non traditional social arrangement, originally brought about by the

545
00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:30.719
<v Speaker 2>fact that when it was exclusively a prison colony and

546
00:37:30.760 --> 00:37:35.199
<v Speaker 2>then kind of early in its construction it was like Alaska,

547
00:37:35.559 --> 00:37:38.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, Manitoba, any of these sort of resource extraction

548
00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:42.239
<v Speaker 2>areas where the ratio of men to women is ten

549
00:37:42.280 --> 00:37:44.880
<v Speaker 2>to one. You know, we're close to that. And so

550
00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:49.119
<v Speaker 2>this has produced a sort of weird social arrangement where

551
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:53.320
<v Speaker 2>they have polygamy, they have these sort of line marriages

552
00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:56.519
<v Speaker 2>which are sort of like a I guess you would

553
00:37:56.559 --> 00:37:59.480
<v Speaker 2>call it sort of like a almost like a family

554
00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:03.239
<v Speaker 2>business more so than a traditional marriage. There's this sort

555
00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:06.320
<v Speaker 2>of I guess you could say, sort of proto feminism

556
00:38:06.360 --> 00:38:10.480
<v Speaker 2>to the book, where women in lunar society are given

557
00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:13.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, complete and total free reign, where the men

558
00:38:13.719 --> 00:38:17.199
<v Speaker 2>sort of tightly police themselves, you know, in sexual matters.

559
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:20.679
<v Speaker 2>And that's interesting, right as in aside, you know, we

560
00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:24.039
<v Speaker 2>could look at highlines later work and deduce some of

561
00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:26.199
<v Speaker 2>his hobbies or proclivities from that. I don't think that's

562
00:38:26.199 --> 00:38:31.000
<v Speaker 2>worth our time. But that idea that the most basic

563
00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:35.719
<v Speaker 2>sort of unit of you know, human organization is incredibly

564
00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:40.880
<v Speaker 2>malleable and absent the situations of Earth could be found

565
00:38:40.920 --> 00:38:45.400
<v Speaker 2>in another form is a really interesting idea. Is there

566
00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:49.320
<v Speaker 2>something there that you've you've sort of recognized, James.

567
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:52.320
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's very interesting because you can look at just

568
00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:56.880
<v Speaker 1>the way that fundamental human relationships have changed and been

569
00:38:56.920 --> 00:39:02.199
<v Speaker 1>transformed in areas where people spend more time around technology

570
00:39:02.280 --> 00:39:08.480
<v Speaker 1>than around their fellow human beings. If we're talking about

571
00:39:08.599 --> 00:39:12.039
<v Speaker 1>you know, polygamy, and we're talking about you know, people

572
00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:17.000
<v Speaker 1>who have other priorities than than having children and you know,

573
00:39:17.079 --> 00:39:21.239
<v Speaker 1>raising them according to the sort of modern tradition or

574
00:39:21.320 --> 00:39:25.760
<v Speaker 1>the nuclear family. I mean I always think of, you know,

575
00:39:25.800 --> 00:39:30.519
<v Speaker 1>a friend of mine who came to the US, uh

576
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:36.880
<v Speaker 1>to get a tech job and and uh and and

577
00:39:36.920 --> 00:39:43.559
<v Speaker 1>went to work at Google, excited to see the the

578
00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:47.800
<v Speaker 1>Americans and to be around the kind of the most

579
00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:53.760
<v Speaker 1>important Americans, and he quickly discovered working at Google that

580
00:39:55.360 --> 00:39:57.920
<v Speaker 1>there didn't seem to be any real Americans there. They

581
00:39:57.960 --> 00:39:59.960
<v Speaker 1>all seem to be like some kind of alien who

582
00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:03.559
<v Speaker 1>had not a whole lot in common with with Americans

583
00:40:03.559 --> 00:40:07.639
<v Speaker 1>and seemed to be functioning in a way that didn't

584
00:40:08.440 --> 00:40:13.920
<v Speaker 1>bear any clear connection to the tradition and the culture

585
00:40:14.119 --> 00:40:17.480
<v Speaker 1>of their country, not because they were all Ashwan B's,

586
00:40:17.559 --> 00:40:22.760
<v Speaker 1>but because they were citizens of Google, and and so

587
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:24.880
<v Speaker 1>as we're thinking about, you know, what lessons we can

588
00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:32.519
<v Speaker 1>learn from this story of kind of colonial blowback on

589
00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:36.079
<v Speaker 1>the imperial core and that you know, this is something

590
00:40:36.119 --> 00:40:39.119
<v Speaker 1>that that you can find in in uh In Edmund Burg.

591
00:40:39.480 --> 00:40:43.920
<v Speaker 1>Edmund Burke too when he's famously warning that the East

592
00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:48.320
<v Speaker 1>India Company is bad because all of these you know,

593
00:40:48.400 --> 00:40:51.760
<v Speaker 1>sort of the best of of young Britain is going

594
00:40:51.800 --> 00:40:53.639
<v Speaker 1>to go off to India and they're going to learn

595
00:40:53.760 --> 00:41:03.079
<v Speaker 1>all of these mores around kind of living that that

596
00:41:03.079 --> 00:41:08.400
<v Speaker 1>that despotic lifestyle of of having lots of wealth and

597
00:41:08.440 --> 00:41:13.079
<v Speaker 1>having this sort of caste of underlings and uh sort

598
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:16.000
<v Speaker 1>of debauched and decadent living. And then they're going to

599
00:41:16.239 --> 00:41:19.719
<v Speaker 1>come back to England and ruin England too, you know,

600
00:41:19.880 --> 00:41:21.760
<v Speaker 1>so that this is a theme that we can see

601
00:41:21.800 --> 00:41:24.719
<v Speaker 1>sort of weaving through a lot of Western history, maybe

602
00:41:24.760 --> 00:41:27.199
<v Speaker 1>even as far back as you know, the Romans and

603
00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:31.559
<v Speaker 1>the German tribes. Anyway, when when we're when we're looking

604
00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:38.039
<v Speaker 1>at this and thinking about you know, maybe tech world, cyberspace, uh,

605
00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:42.079
<v Speaker 1>the the realm of the cyborg is kind of one

606
00:41:42.119 --> 00:41:46.320
<v Speaker 1>of these, uh, frontier areas where we send people in

607
00:41:46.360 --> 00:41:51.000
<v Speaker 1>there thinking that they're going to extend America into this

608
00:41:51.639 --> 00:41:55.400
<v Speaker 1>frontier world, but in fact, the frontier world is going

609
00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:58.960
<v Speaker 1>to change them in ways that we don't anticipate, and

610
00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:01.599
<v Speaker 1>then they're going to come back to us and try

611
00:42:01.639 --> 00:42:06.760
<v Speaker 1>to remake us in their image.

612
00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:10.360
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot there. I was thinking of conversations I've

613
00:42:10.400 --> 00:42:13.760
<v Speaker 2>had with my wife, I mentioned before on the show.

614
00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:16.199
<v Speaker 2>I won't go into it, that she's worked as a teacher,

615
00:42:16.679 --> 00:42:20.400
<v Speaker 2>you know a number of different schools, and First School

616
00:42:20.480 --> 00:42:25.599
<v Speaker 2>is a very very impoverished area, you know, highly black,

617
00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:30.599
<v Speaker 2>sort of ghetto of Richmond, and the school system had

618
00:42:30.639 --> 00:42:35.199
<v Speaker 2>decided to issue all of the students chromebooks. Right to

619
00:42:35.320 --> 00:42:41.079
<v Speaker 2>these kids from kindergarten up had effectively quasi unrestricted access

620
00:42:41.079 --> 00:42:43.199
<v Speaker 2>to the Internet. I mean sure, you know, there were

621
00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:46.599
<v Speaker 2>blockers in place, but obviously those didn't act, those didn't

622
00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:50.320
<v Speaker 2>last long, and it was interesting to see how that

623
00:42:51.440 --> 00:42:59.440
<v Speaker 2>changed learning and also social dynamics. Right, there were children

624
00:42:59.559 --> 00:43:02.000
<v Speaker 2>admitted it's a poor school. So who's to say how

625
00:43:02.039 --> 00:43:04.880
<v Speaker 2>much of this is involves the tech? How much of

626
00:43:04.920 --> 00:43:09.559
<v Speaker 2>this is just school dysfunction. But we're sort of not

627
00:43:09.679 --> 00:43:12.639
<v Speaker 2>quite nonverbal, but at least close to it. Right, They

628
00:43:12.920 --> 00:43:18.079
<v Speaker 2>had sort of pushed all of that energy into digital interaction.

629
00:43:18.559 --> 00:43:20.519
<v Speaker 2>You know, they text one another, they'd message one another,

630
00:43:20.599 --> 00:43:25.199
<v Speaker 2>but there wasn't a lot of talking or interaction going on. Also,

631
00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:27.639
<v Speaker 2>obviously there are you know, there are negative side effects

632
00:43:27.639 --> 00:43:31.360
<v Speaker 2>to exposing you know, young children to the unrestricted internet. Okay,

633
00:43:31.400 --> 00:43:34.039
<v Speaker 2>fair enough, but it is interesting to see in which

634
00:43:34.599 --> 00:43:38.239
<v Speaker 2>that many of these circuits which evolved in our brains

635
00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:44.360
<v Speaker 2>over thousands of years are sort of breaking in you know,

636
00:43:44.440 --> 00:43:45.599
<v Speaker 2>novel circumstances.

637
00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:46.239
<v Speaker 3>Right.

638
00:43:46.599 --> 00:43:49.360
<v Speaker 2>A great example, you know is diet. Right, the the

639
00:43:49.440 --> 00:43:53.199
<v Speaker 2>things that your brain wants you to eat a lot of,

640
00:43:53.639 --> 00:43:56.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, because they will they will make you more

641
00:43:56.440 --> 00:43:58.960
<v Speaker 2>likely to pass on your genes. Well, in a time

642
00:43:58.960 --> 00:44:03.519
<v Speaker 2>of abundance, that's a maladaptive tendency that makes you much

643
00:44:03.679 --> 00:44:06.719
<v Speaker 2>less likely to pass on your genes. It makes you fatter,

644
00:44:06.760 --> 00:44:08.920
<v Speaker 2>it makes you more unhealthy, it makes you much less

645
00:44:08.960 --> 00:44:12.280
<v Speaker 2>likely to find a mate. It's an interesting thing then, right.

646
00:44:13.079 --> 00:44:16.119
<v Speaker 2>I will admit you know, I'm a firm believer in

647
00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:18.800
<v Speaker 2>human nature. I think there are things about ourselves that

648
00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:22.639
<v Speaker 2>are unchangeable. But we can also admit that there is

649
00:44:22.679 --> 00:44:27.920
<v Speaker 2>a big part of our learned behaviors that is built

650
00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:32.320
<v Speaker 2>for a radically different set of circumstances, which is generally speaking,

651
00:44:32.440 --> 00:44:36.480
<v Speaker 2>what makes science fiction interesting. You can take a trend

652
00:44:36.679 --> 00:44:41.000
<v Speaker 2>we observe and amplify it ten twenty times to see

653
00:44:41.000 --> 00:44:44.400
<v Speaker 2>a more extreme version, and poke around that central question

654
00:44:44.440 --> 00:44:49.199
<v Speaker 2>of well how does the human organism react to extremely

655
00:44:49.239 --> 00:44:52.840
<v Speaker 2>novel circumstances? Right? Well, and beyond what we've already seen.

656
00:44:53.239 --> 00:44:57.199
<v Speaker 2>I think it's what makes it so interesting. So one

657
00:44:57.440 --> 00:45:01.639
<v Speaker 2>more thing I want to bring up, James, when we

658
00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:08.400
<v Speaker 2>look at this book is the sort of synthetic hero, right,

659
00:45:08.440 --> 00:45:13.639
<v Speaker 2>the ring leader of at least on paper, ring leader

660
00:45:13.880 --> 00:45:18.440
<v Speaker 2>of this revolution. Because I think it's very interesting, right.

661
00:45:18.480 --> 00:45:21.400
<v Speaker 2>The classic line from the Matrix that the desert of

662
00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:25.400
<v Speaker 2>the real that we live in an era of I mean,

663
00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:28.719
<v Speaker 2>there just is no social cohesion. Right, there are tens

664
00:45:28.719 --> 00:45:33.079
<v Speaker 2>and thousands of different narratives, each fighting for central control.

665
00:45:33.719 --> 00:45:35.480
<v Speaker 2>And so to see a book written in the sixties

666
00:45:35.480 --> 00:45:39.440
<v Speaker 2>where you have this sort of focal figure, right, the

667
00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:43.079
<v Speaker 2>man to lead a revolution, who is completely and totally fake.

668
00:45:43.400 --> 00:45:45.960
<v Speaker 2>He doesn't exist, he's not real. He is sort of

669
00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:50.119
<v Speaker 2>an agglomeration of both our three revolutionaries and also the

670
00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:53.480
<v Speaker 2>computer animating. So I'm curious, what do you make of

671
00:45:53.480 --> 00:45:54.239
<v Speaker 2>that in this book?

672
00:45:56.400 --> 00:45:58.159
<v Speaker 1>I think, I mean, you know, look, one of my

673
00:45:58.639 --> 00:46:03.000
<v Speaker 1>favorite sci fi films is The Edge of Tomorrow, which again,

674
00:46:03.280 --> 00:46:09.519
<v Speaker 1>you know, maybe not the best title, but a great film.

675
00:46:09.960 --> 00:46:16.519
<v Speaker 1>And in that film, Emily Blunt, I believe, plays a

676
00:46:16.559 --> 00:46:23.000
<v Speaker 1>similar sort of figure who is mythologized into this you know,

677
00:46:23.079 --> 00:46:29.519
<v Speaker 1>incredibly brave human who has this incredible kill count sort

678
00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:34.679
<v Speaker 1>of fighting these aliens who are invading. Curiously enough, you

679
00:46:34.719 --> 00:46:38.599
<v Speaker 1>know that that film is set on the anniversary of

680
00:46:38.679 --> 00:46:42.800
<v Speaker 1>D Day. Moon is a harsh mistress, is you know,

681
00:46:42.920 --> 00:46:46.280
<v Speaker 1>the the independence movement is is time to July fourth,

682
00:46:46.679 --> 00:46:50.199
<v Speaker 1>twenty seventy six, which is now a scant fifty years away.

683
00:46:51.400 --> 00:46:54.480
<v Speaker 1>So there's you know, there's a trope of of the

684
00:46:54.480 --> 00:46:57.719
<v Speaker 1>the the the ultimate or the ideal leader of a

685
00:46:57.800 --> 00:47:02.320
<v Speaker 1>revolution being someone who in fact does not actually exist,

686
00:47:02.480 --> 00:47:06.079
<v Speaker 1>who is a fantasy you can think of. Yeah, I

687
00:47:06.119 --> 00:47:09.840
<v Speaker 1>mean we've seen this with the war in Ukraine, where

688
00:47:10.039 --> 00:47:14.719
<v Speaker 1>they just invent this fighter Ace who who never existed.

689
00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:18.880
<v Speaker 1>There's there's a tradition here, and I think, you know,

690
00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:24.800
<v Speaker 1>Heinland is suggesting pretty persuisively that this is a tradition

691
00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:29.280
<v Speaker 1>which we should expect to continue and and perhaps even

692
00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:34.360
<v Speaker 1>to become perfected or elevated to a point where, you know,

693
00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:38.880
<v Speaker 1>even very discerning people are simply not going to be

694
00:47:40.239 --> 00:47:46.440
<v Speaker 1>able to tell whether or not a public figure actually exists.

695
00:47:48.119 --> 00:47:52.199
<v Speaker 1>You know. To me, the the real risk here is

696
00:47:52.239 --> 00:48:01.239
<v Speaker 1>that the the the human society verse versus the the

697
00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:05.159
<v Speaker 1>cyborg society, in the same way that it's the Earthlings

698
00:48:05.199 --> 00:48:12.039
<v Speaker 1>and the loonies in UH in Himland become so uh

699
00:48:12.599 --> 00:48:18.440
<v Speaker 1>distinct and oppositional in their identities that America is really

700
00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:24.400
<v Speaker 1>not able to to continue it's its political existence, and

701
00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:30.000
<v Speaker 1>that were driven to a point of civil war that's

702
00:48:30.519 --> 00:48:34.599
<v Speaker 1>far messier and far more comprehensive than uh than the

703
00:48:34.599 --> 00:48:40.239
<v Speaker 1>First Civil War. You know, we've got uh these these

704
00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:44.960
<v Speaker 1>kind of tropes in in the UH, in the discourse

705
00:48:45.239 --> 00:48:48.519
<v Speaker 1>of of of the left sort of turning into gay

706
00:48:48.599 --> 00:48:54.599
<v Speaker 1>race communism and then the right turning into gay space fascism.

707
00:48:54.840 --> 00:48:58.480
<v Speaker 1>And it does seem, you know, reading reading this book,

708
00:48:59.119 --> 00:49:02.000
<v Speaker 1>that it wouldn't be that surprise you. We can kind

709
00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:07.920
<v Speaker 1>of see the path of how the human society would

710
00:49:08.320 --> 00:49:12.960
<v Speaker 1>resort to, you know, gay race communism and the cyborg

711
00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:17.840
<v Speaker 1>society would resort to gay space fascism. And if those

712
00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:23.360
<v Speaker 1>two forces collide, it's just going to be a very

713
00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:27.480
<v Speaker 1>difficult experience for so many Americans. It's going to seem like,

714
00:49:27.719 --> 00:49:32.719
<v Speaker 1>you know, two alien races just kind of trying to

715
00:49:33.280 --> 00:49:38.519
<v Speaker 1>blow each other away and suck every American into that

716
00:49:38.639 --> 00:49:42.360
<v Speaker 1>kind of conflict. And you know, what better way to

717
00:49:42.440 --> 00:49:46.000
<v Speaker 1>make ordinary people feel like they don't have a choice

718
00:49:46.760 --> 00:49:49.679
<v Speaker 1>or that there's something wrong with them unless they make

719
00:49:49.719 --> 00:49:54.760
<v Speaker 1>the right choice, other than to manufacture these kinds of

720
00:49:55.599 --> 00:50:00.840
<v Speaker 1>heroic figures. So much of what is drive having political

721
00:50:00.880 --> 00:50:06.280
<v Speaker 1>discourse today is is basically the hero's journey, and it's

722
00:50:06.440 --> 00:50:08.320
<v Speaker 1>you know, you get it out of Carl Jung or

723
00:50:08.760 --> 00:50:12.320
<v Speaker 1>Joseph Campbell, and you know, you really are going to

724
00:50:12.360 --> 00:50:15.760
<v Speaker 1>piss some people off if you log on and start

725
00:50:16.159 --> 00:50:19.480
<v Speaker 1>deconstructing the hero's journey. You know, you're that's that's seen

726
00:50:19.519 --> 00:50:23.840
<v Speaker 1>as being very black pilled and very poor form. Whose

727
00:50:23.880 --> 00:50:28.320
<v Speaker 1>side are you on? Uh? But the basic sales pitch

728
00:50:28.440 --> 00:50:31.280
<v Speaker 1>of the hero's journey that the instrumental political value of

729
00:50:31.320 --> 00:50:35.559
<v Speaker 1>the hero's journey is for the very ambitious person to say, like, hey,

730
00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:38.440
<v Speaker 1>you know, I want to have more power than you,

731
00:50:38.599 --> 00:50:40.679
<v Speaker 1>I want to have more money than you. I want

732
00:50:40.719 --> 00:50:44.760
<v Speaker 1>to be maybe in charge of you. And so I'm

733
00:50:44.800 --> 00:50:47.480
<v Speaker 1>going to offer you a trade. You're going to let

734
00:50:47.480 --> 00:50:51.760
<v Speaker 1>me fully live into my ambitions, and in exchange for that,

735
00:50:51.960 --> 00:50:55.920
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to go do something amazing that you're you

736
00:50:56.280 --> 00:51:00.679
<v Speaker 1>the ordinary people are going to benefit from. I'm going

737
00:51:00.760 --> 00:51:02.719
<v Speaker 1>to go, you know, I'm going to kill a monster,

738
00:51:02.960 --> 00:51:04.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to beat up a bad guy, I'm gonna

739
00:51:05.079 --> 00:51:07.840
<v Speaker 1>find the treasure. I'm going to save the world. And

740
00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:10.719
<v Speaker 1>in virtue of the fact that I'm going on this

741
00:51:10.840 --> 00:51:15.400
<v Speaker 1>good quest and I'm this ambitious hero, you're going to

742
00:51:15.480 --> 00:51:19.280
<v Speaker 1>allow me to enjoy the benefits of, you know, my

743
00:51:19.400 --> 00:51:26.679
<v Speaker 1>personal supremacy. That's one kind of social compact, right, and

744
00:51:26.679 --> 00:51:31.840
<v Speaker 1>and it can certainly work, and it worked pretty reliably

745
00:51:32.119 --> 00:51:36.840
<v Speaker 1>for for quite some time in Pagan societies, and for

746
00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:40.039
<v Speaker 1>you know, people who are looking around at the kind

747
00:51:40.079 --> 00:51:42.760
<v Speaker 1>of gay race communism side of the ledger and saying

748
00:51:42.800 --> 00:51:45.960
<v Speaker 1>like this is terrible. You know, their alternative that they

749
00:51:46.000 --> 00:51:51.639
<v Speaker 1>oftentimes reach for is basically that politically instrumentalized hero's journey,

750
00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:55.960
<v Speaker 1>you know, best people going on good quests, that that's

751
00:51:56.000 --> 00:52:00.440
<v Speaker 1>who should rule, and ordinary people should really want them

752
00:52:00.440 --> 00:52:05.519
<v Speaker 1>to rule and really trust them. But that schema is

753
00:52:05.679 --> 00:52:10.039
<v Speaker 1>in danger of breaking down itself. I think people are

754
00:52:10.079 --> 00:52:21.119
<v Speaker 1>experiencing so much spiritual dislocation, spiritual emptiness, spiritual sickness, and

755
00:52:21.440 --> 00:52:26.159
<v Speaker 1>the hero's journey bargain doesn't seem to be super good

756
00:52:26.239 --> 00:52:31.599
<v Speaker 1>at addressing those things. And so when we're wrestling anew

757
00:52:31.639 --> 00:52:35.880
<v Speaker 1>with these questions of you know, how do you manage

758
00:52:35.920 --> 00:52:42.239
<v Speaker 1>ambition and is it possible to maintain self governance in

759
00:52:42.280 --> 00:52:47.480
<v Speaker 1>an era like this, and how do you ensure that

760
00:52:48.159 --> 00:52:52.880
<v Speaker 1>the spillover of skills and talent and people in your

761
00:52:52.920 --> 00:52:56.679
<v Speaker 1>society doesn't end up coming back to change you in

762
00:52:56.719 --> 00:52:59.639
<v Speaker 1>ways you don't want to be changed. I think we're

763
00:52:59.679 --> 00:53:01.679
<v Speaker 1>just going to continue to be kind of forced into

764
00:53:01.719 --> 00:53:06.559
<v Speaker 1>a new sort of reckoning with all of these historical

765
00:53:07.199 --> 00:53:11.119
<v Speaker 1>attempts to resolve it. You know, Tokeville talks a lot

766
00:53:11.159 --> 00:53:15.119
<v Speaker 1>about the problem of ambition, Machiavelli talks a lot about

767
00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:18.440
<v Speaker 1>the problem of ambition, and all of these guys have

768
00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:23.880
<v Speaker 1>an understanding of these kind of imperial core, colonial, frontier,

769
00:53:25.079 --> 00:53:29.519
<v Speaker 1>center margin kinds of of challenges. I don't think they're

770
00:53:29.559 --> 00:53:32.920
<v Speaker 1>going away. And I think that, you know, if the

771
00:53:33.159 --> 00:53:37.559
<v Speaker 1>if the spiritual or religious component of human experience is

772
00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:41.119
<v Speaker 1>kind of pushed out of the equation, and you know,

773
00:53:41.199 --> 00:53:45.000
<v Speaker 1>Heinland doesn't give it very much time. He he doesn't

774
00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:50.639
<v Speaker 1>really have a super well developed sort of theology or

775
00:53:51.440 --> 00:53:55.960
<v Speaker 1>or or spiritual anthropology, at least in this book. If

776
00:53:56.000 --> 00:53:59.000
<v Speaker 1>that stuff is moved off to the side, then I

777
00:53:59.000 --> 00:54:01.519
<v Speaker 1>think people are going to start reaching for, you know,

778
00:54:01.639 --> 00:54:06.840
<v Speaker 1>purely political or purely technological solutions that might end up

779
00:54:06.840 --> 00:54:10.360
<v Speaker 1>getting us into more trouble than than getting us out.

780
00:54:11.320 --> 00:54:14.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, several things. I think it's your wise to bring

781
00:54:14.599 --> 00:54:23.440
<v Speaker 2>up the sort of significance of comparing this revolution right

782
00:54:23.480 --> 00:54:28.239
<v Speaker 2>to the American Revolution, because clearly, obviously there's a date significance.

783
00:54:28.599 --> 00:54:32.800
<v Speaker 2>It's interesting they're kind of multiple cynical asides. When our

784
00:54:32.840 --> 00:54:36.360
<v Speaker 2>revolutionaries are on their tour back down to Earth, you know,

785
00:54:36.400 --> 00:54:40.320
<v Speaker 2>meeting with foreign dignitaries where they talk about, you know,

786
00:54:40.440 --> 00:54:43.920
<v Speaker 2>wherever they go, they compare their revolution to you know,

787
00:54:43.960 --> 00:54:47.800
<v Speaker 2>whatever relevant historical event. So you know, in Mexico they

788
00:54:48.199 --> 00:54:51.119
<v Speaker 2>focus on the fact that their constitution was signed on

789
00:54:51.199 --> 00:54:54.159
<v Speaker 2>May fifth, you know, kind of going around shopping, you know,

790
00:54:54.199 --> 00:54:57.320
<v Speaker 2>this idea to tie their concept of revolution to ours.

791
00:54:58.599 --> 00:55:01.880
<v Speaker 2>But at the same time, that core versus outer distinction,

792
00:55:02.519 --> 00:55:06.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, the colonies versus the empire is this sort

793
00:55:06.320 --> 00:55:09.639
<v Speaker 2>of classic divide we've seen over and over again. And

794
00:55:09.960 --> 00:55:12.840
<v Speaker 2>when the book ends, you know, our main character, you know, Manny,

795
00:55:12.920 --> 00:55:15.920
<v Speaker 2>is sort of pondering what has become of Luna. You know,

796
00:55:16.039 --> 00:55:18.360
<v Speaker 2>it's sort of lost a little bit of that, you know,

797
00:55:18.440 --> 00:55:21.480
<v Speaker 2>kind of that kind of wild West, you know, atmosphere

798
00:55:21.519 --> 00:55:23.679
<v Speaker 2>to it. It's getting more built up. There are moral

799
00:55:23.800 --> 00:55:26.320
<v Speaker 2>laws that forbid, you know, what you can and can't do.

800
00:55:26.920 --> 00:55:29.000
<v Speaker 2>And he talks about the fact that, well, you know,

801
00:55:29.079 --> 00:55:31.320
<v Speaker 2>some of the guys are already moving out to asteroids.

802
00:55:31.639 --> 00:55:36.039
<v Speaker 2>I think I may follow them, And especially because it's

803
00:55:36.039 --> 00:55:39.000
<v Speaker 2>sort of a minor point in this book that in

804
00:55:39.159 --> 00:55:42.159
<v Speaker 2>space humans do not age at least nearly as much

805
00:55:42.159 --> 00:55:45.400
<v Speaker 2>as they do under full gravity, and so the idea

806
00:55:45.559 --> 00:55:47.800
<v Speaker 2>is that you know, sort of like roll into the

807
00:55:47.800 --> 00:55:51.400
<v Speaker 2>headless Gunner or whatever, like Manny will be able to

808
00:55:51.519 --> 00:55:54.480
<v Speaker 2>live on, you know, live out this kind of wild

809
00:55:54.960 --> 00:55:58.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, sort of frontier life into the future. It's

810
00:55:58.880 --> 00:56:00.679
<v Speaker 2>sort of the hopeful note at the end of it.

811
00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:03.719
<v Speaker 2>But sure the empire is expanding more of it is

812
00:56:03.760 --> 00:56:08.280
<v Speaker 2>being pulled into civilization, pulled into the core. But nonetheless

813
00:56:08.320 --> 00:56:11.079
<v Speaker 2>there is a place for freedom on sort of the

814
00:56:11.760 --> 00:56:15.159
<v Speaker 2>outer edges, right, that's where that sort of freedom can

815
00:56:15.199 --> 00:56:17.559
<v Speaker 2>be found. And I think that that is a it's

816
00:56:17.559 --> 00:56:20.159
<v Speaker 2>an interesting message you see kind of at the end there.

817
00:56:22.159 --> 00:56:25.039
<v Speaker 1>It's very interesting, especially you know, you can go back

818
00:56:25.079 --> 00:56:31.679
<v Speaker 1>to Peter Thiel was making the rounds on on social

819
00:56:31.679 --> 00:56:35.079
<v Speaker 1>media or in the sort of podcast world as he

820
00:56:35.159 --> 00:56:41.239
<v Speaker 1>sometimes does, and he was recounting the story of Elon

821
00:56:41.400 --> 00:56:46.719
<v Speaker 1>Musk realizing that maybe going to Mars was not enough.

822
00:56:47.599 --> 00:56:53.039
<v Speaker 1>So I think he was sitting there with with with

823
00:56:53.119 --> 00:57:00.239
<v Speaker 1>Peter and and Demis Hasabis, and you know, they're kind

824
00:57:00.239 --> 00:57:06.280
<v Speaker 1>of doing the super ambitious guy thing where where or

825
00:57:06.320 --> 00:57:10.400
<v Speaker 1>Demis said, you know, I am building the most powerful

826
00:57:11.719 --> 00:57:15.119
<v Speaker 1>AI in the universe, and so I'm doing the most

827
00:57:15.119 --> 00:57:18.599
<v Speaker 1>important thing. And then Elan said well, no, I you know,

828
00:57:18.679 --> 00:57:22.679
<v Speaker 1>I am making the human race, that interplanetary civilization. So

829
00:57:23.000 --> 00:57:25.440
<v Speaker 1>and I'll extend the light of consciousness throughout the universe.

830
00:57:25.800 --> 00:57:30.199
<v Speaker 1>I'm doing the most important thing. And uh and Demis

831
00:57:30.239 --> 00:57:34.840
<v Speaker 1>basically said, well, you know, the the woke mind virus

832
00:57:34.920 --> 00:57:37.320
<v Speaker 1>is going to beat you tomorrows. You're going to get there,

833
00:57:37.400 --> 00:57:41.599
<v Speaker 1>and it's in some paradoxical way going to already be there.

834
00:57:42.119 --> 00:57:44.400
<v Speaker 1>And you're you know, you you can run, but you

835
00:57:44.440 --> 00:57:50.159
<v Speaker 1>can't hide. And so the the extension of that idea

836
00:57:50.440 --> 00:57:53.920
<v Speaker 1>to to Heinlein would be like, well, you know, okay,

837
00:57:53.960 --> 00:57:57.039
<v Speaker 1>so you're gonna leave. You're going to leave the moon

838
00:57:57.119 --> 00:57:59.440
<v Speaker 1>for an asteroid and how long is that going to last?

839
00:58:00.119 --> 00:58:04.719
<v Speaker 1>And the more that technology develops and expands, and frankly,

840
00:58:04.760 --> 00:58:07.480
<v Speaker 1>the more that people turn to technology as a way

841
00:58:07.800 --> 00:58:17.480
<v Speaker 1>of forcing an end of history of humanity by speeding

842
00:58:17.559 --> 00:58:22.719
<v Speaker 1>up time to sort of speed run through and and

843
00:58:22.760 --> 00:58:25.559
<v Speaker 1>bring an end to all of these problems of the

844
00:58:25.599 --> 00:58:28.199
<v Speaker 1>human condition, solve them all. We're just going to race

845
00:58:28.239 --> 00:58:32.119
<v Speaker 1>ahead until we just sort of burst through into this

846
00:58:32.519 --> 00:58:39.320
<v Speaker 1>post human, post historical paradise. There's not going to be

847
00:58:39.840 --> 00:58:46.360
<v Speaker 1>a prospect for exit, which is so beloved of libertarians.

848
00:58:47.480 --> 00:58:51.199
<v Speaker 1>If we're staring down that kind of future, then you know,

849
00:58:51.239 --> 00:58:54.880
<v Speaker 1>we're going to have to sort of think about the

850
00:58:54.960 --> 00:58:58.840
<v Speaker 1>problems that Highland presents in something of a different way,

851
00:58:59.039 --> 00:59:06.719
<v Speaker 1>because because he does seem to assume that in this

852
00:59:07.119 --> 00:59:10.320
<v Speaker 1>much more technological future, there are still going to be

853
00:59:10.920 --> 00:59:15.800
<v Speaker 1>real options for someone who says, well, you know, I'm

854
00:59:15.840 --> 00:59:19.159
<v Speaker 1>just gonna walk away. I don't know what's out there,

855
00:59:19.199 --> 00:59:23.800
<v Speaker 1>but it's got to be better than this. If that

856
00:59:24.400 --> 00:59:30.559
<v Speaker 1>possibility starts to disappear, even if you know, just in

857
00:59:30.559 --> 00:59:34.679
<v Speaker 1>in the in the human imagination, then there are going

858
00:59:34.760 --> 00:59:38.800
<v Speaker 1>to be more confrontations. And if we don't want those

859
00:59:38.800 --> 00:59:44.719
<v Speaker 1>confrontations to lead to conflicts that you know, cause perhaps

860
00:59:44.760 --> 00:59:50.960
<v Speaker 1>millions and millions of innocent civilians to suffer and die unduly,

861
00:59:52.199 --> 00:59:54.800
<v Speaker 1>then we're going to need to look more to spiritual

862
00:59:54.840 --> 00:59:58.119
<v Speaker 1>resources than to technological or military ones.

863
01:00:01.639 --> 01:00:06.519
<v Speaker 2>It's it's really a unique book. It's one I recommend

864
01:00:06.840 --> 01:00:12.559
<v Speaker 2>that everyone read. It has this reputation of being sort

865
01:00:12.559 --> 01:00:16.280
<v Speaker 2>of like a didactic, a narco capitalist screed, sort of

866
01:00:17.320 --> 01:00:20.440
<v Speaker 2>another take on Iron Rand, and there's really a lot

867
01:00:20.599 --> 01:00:24.920
<v Speaker 2>more to it than that. Obviously, that is the perspective

868
01:00:25.519 --> 01:00:27.880
<v Speaker 2>of the book. If you can even say that, right.

869
01:00:27.920 --> 01:00:31.000
<v Speaker 2>It's one of you know, Hindhlight's multiple kind of political

870
01:00:31.039 --> 01:00:34.679
<v Speaker 2>system books. I will be doing episodes on the other two,

871
01:00:34.960 --> 01:00:40.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, soon. But it's a very interesting intellectual exercise.

872
01:00:41.679 --> 01:00:46.280
<v Speaker 2>You're sort of poking around, well, how would one accomplish

873
01:00:46.320 --> 01:00:49.719
<v Speaker 2>this goal? Right, how would one secede? What would you need?

874
01:00:50.559 --> 01:00:53.920
<v Speaker 2>And the sort of paradox of it is that seemingly

875
01:00:54.039 --> 01:00:57.599
<v Speaker 2>to have a free society you need a sort of

876
01:00:57.599 --> 01:01:01.920
<v Speaker 2>omnipotent god king. And like I said, it's been a

877
01:01:02.000 --> 01:01:04.519
<v Speaker 2>decade since I read this book, and I'd forgotten, and

878
01:01:04.559 --> 01:01:08.639
<v Speaker 2>I admit was kind of disappointed that Mike dies in

879
01:01:08.679 --> 01:01:11.639
<v Speaker 2>the end, right, He's either killed or sort of scattered

880
01:01:11.679 --> 01:01:15.880
<v Speaker 2>to the wind. His consciousness is you know, dissolved due

881
01:01:15.920 --> 01:01:19.960
<v Speaker 2>to the kind of climactic I guess bombardon it at

882
01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:22.960
<v Speaker 2>the end of the the sort of war between Earth

883
01:01:23.199 --> 01:01:27.159
<v Speaker 2>and the Moon, because that's its own interesting question, you know,

884
01:01:27.400 --> 01:01:32.039
<v Speaker 2>what becomes of your AI philosopher god king when the

885
01:01:32.079 --> 01:01:36.199
<v Speaker 2>war is done? We see little hints, you know. Mike

886
01:01:36.320 --> 01:01:40.880
<v Speaker 2>says that, you know, watching these sort of kinetic bombs

887
01:01:41.440 --> 01:01:44.960
<v Speaker 2>drop onto Earth is orgasmic, right, the term he uses,

888
01:01:45.400 --> 01:01:48.800
<v Speaker 2>and it's not played to be overly sinister. You know,

889
01:01:48.920 --> 01:01:51.880
<v Speaker 2>it's not a sort of you know, over the top

890
01:01:51.920 --> 01:01:55.079
<v Speaker 2>signal that something bad is going to happen. But that

891
01:01:55.159 --> 01:01:58.519
<v Speaker 2>is an interesting speculative question, one that is not answered, right,

892
01:01:58.599 --> 01:02:04.000
<v Speaker 2>what becomes of this sort of ultimately powerful AI in

893
01:02:04.079 --> 01:02:06.840
<v Speaker 2>peace time? And at least in the book, it's not answered.

894
01:02:07.480 --> 01:02:09.440
<v Speaker 2>Did you notice that as well, James?

895
01:02:10.840 --> 01:02:13.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, you know, what becomes of the AI

896
01:02:13.400 --> 01:02:16.440
<v Speaker 1>in peacetime if Tokvill is our guide, is that it

897
01:02:16.480 --> 01:02:22.360
<v Speaker 1>becomes just a very boring instrument of taking care of

898
01:02:22.519 --> 01:02:32.079
<v Speaker 1>people's boring, quotidian needs and petty desires, soft despotism. That's

899
01:02:32.159 --> 01:02:38.480
<v Speaker 1>not very inspiring, that doesn't serve the ambitious, That doesn't

900
01:02:38.519 --> 01:02:45.280
<v Speaker 1>feel very political in the agonistic sense. It feels like,

901
01:02:46.320 --> 01:02:49.119
<v Speaker 1>you know, it feels like kind of the Europe of

902
01:02:49.159 --> 01:02:54.840
<v Speaker 1>the pejorative description, where where it's the end of history

903
01:02:55.239 --> 01:02:59.920
<v Speaker 1>and your kojev and you say like, yes, I'm a bureaucrat.

904
01:03:00.159 --> 01:03:04.119
<v Speaker 1>Isn't it amazing? You know, we did it. We're kind

905
01:03:04.159 --> 01:03:09.199
<v Speaker 1>of just going to keep this thing rolling along indefinitely.

906
01:03:11.360 --> 01:03:15.280
<v Speaker 1>That's not very satisfying to the super ambitious. But you

907
01:03:15.320 --> 01:03:22.320
<v Speaker 1>know what is interesting if Tokville is right about the

908
01:03:22.360 --> 01:03:29.719
<v Speaker 1>sociological structure of society in democratic ages, as the equality

909
01:03:29.760 --> 01:03:37.559
<v Speaker 1>of conditions tends to spread over humanity, really ambitious people

910
01:03:37.679 --> 01:03:42.760
<v Speaker 1>under those circumstances are going to be led toward the

911
01:03:42.800 --> 01:03:47.039
<v Speaker 1>military rather than to commercial life, or they're going to

912
01:03:47.159 --> 01:03:51.519
<v Speaker 1>use commercial life as a way of leveraging themselves into

913
01:03:51.559 --> 01:03:57.480
<v Speaker 1>military power, which seems to make them very distinct from

914
01:03:57.519 --> 01:04:02.880
<v Speaker 1>the common democratic man who just kind of wants petty

915
01:04:02.920 --> 01:04:06.840
<v Speaker 1>cares taken care of and physical comfort and you know,

916
01:04:07.079 --> 01:04:13.320
<v Speaker 1>maybe a feeling of being cosmically connected. Right, But it

917
01:04:13.360 --> 01:04:19.440
<v Speaker 1>does seem that Tokyo's warning about pantheism having secret charms

918
01:04:19.480 --> 01:04:24.719
<v Speaker 1>in democratic ages because of how it promises to dissolve

919
01:04:25.280 --> 01:04:28.000
<v Speaker 1>the individual and all of the anxieties of being an

920
01:04:28.000 --> 01:04:32.840
<v Speaker 1>individual into the cosmic whole or this grand unity, that

921
01:04:32.920 --> 01:04:37.239
<v Speaker 1>does seem to be a religion that serves the ambitious

922
01:04:37.239 --> 01:04:42.679
<v Speaker 1>elite just as well, if for different reasons, as the

923
01:04:43.480 --> 01:04:46.840
<v Speaker 1>as the unambitious commoners. And so, you know, when I'm

924
01:04:46.880 --> 01:04:53.679
<v Speaker 1>looking at someone like you know, Elon Musk, or you

925
01:04:53.719 --> 01:04:56.119
<v Speaker 1>look across the pond and you've got like David Deutsch

926
01:04:56.159 --> 01:05:01.079
<v Speaker 1>and all these kinds of continental scientist types, you know,

927
01:05:01.199 --> 01:05:05.280
<v Speaker 1>they really think that it's all about consciousness, and it's

928
01:05:05.360 --> 01:05:12.159
<v Speaker 1>better to discard our humanity if it means advancing consciousness. Yeah,

929
01:05:12.159 --> 01:05:15.760
<v Speaker 1>that's that's pantheism. And then you look down at kind

930
01:05:15.760 --> 01:05:22.239
<v Speaker 1>of the lowly American, permanent underclass person who's got their

931
01:05:22.360 --> 01:05:27.280
<v Speaker 1>their crystals, and you know, is is maybe starting to

932
01:05:27.280 --> 01:05:30.639
<v Speaker 1>get into psychedelics or whatever, or or likes to meditate

933
01:05:31.960 --> 01:05:35.000
<v Speaker 1>and is just kind of passing the time trying to

934
01:05:35.039 --> 01:05:40.360
<v Speaker 1>achieve that experience of oceanic consciousness. Right, this is a

935
01:05:40.440 --> 01:05:48.559
<v Speaker 1>religious schema that seems to reinforce kind of the the

936
01:05:48.559 --> 01:05:53.400
<v Speaker 1>the worst tendencies of the person who is who is

937
01:05:53.400 --> 01:05:57.199
<v Speaker 1>not ambitious enough, and then also of the person who

938
01:05:57.239 --> 01:06:01.199
<v Speaker 1>is too ambitious. And I do think that you know,

939
01:06:01.320 --> 01:06:06.719
<v Speaker 1>if if if Tokeville is right about these things, then

940
01:06:06.800 --> 01:06:11.599
<v Speaker 1>what you can expect from from an AI, a sort

941
01:06:11.639 --> 01:06:17.159
<v Speaker 1>of national AI in peacetime is soft despotism. But that

942
01:06:17.280 --> 01:06:22.320
<v Speaker 1>same AI in in wartime is uh is going to

943
01:06:22.400 --> 01:06:25.360
<v Speaker 1>be a much harsher.

944
01:06:26.519 --> 01:06:26.840
<v Speaker 3>Entity.

945
01:06:27.159 --> 01:06:32.400
<v Speaker 1>And that does seem to reflect pretty well what the

946
01:06:32.480 --> 01:06:35.280
<v Speaker 1>character of Mike goes through over the course of this book,

947
01:06:35.360 --> 01:06:38.800
<v Speaker 1>which is something that doesn't have to change that much

948
01:06:39.119 --> 01:06:42.960
<v Speaker 1>or really at all, in order to move from being

949
01:06:43.039 --> 01:06:46.519
<v Speaker 1>kind of your friendly jokester who's handing out you know,

950
01:06:46.800 --> 01:06:51.000
<v Speaker 1>universal high income checks uh and and can then transform

951
01:06:51.079 --> 01:06:55.400
<v Speaker 1>into you know, someone who's potentially capable of destroying the

952
01:06:55.440 --> 01:06:56.119
<v Speaker 1>life on Earth.

953
01:06:58.960 --> 01:07:02.280
<v Speaker 2>So, James, this has been a fascinating discussion. Really enjoyed it.

954
01:07:02.320 --> 01:07:05.079
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for really making me read this

955
01:07:05.079 --> 01:07:07.719
<v Speaker 2>book again. It was on my shelf. I'd had it

956
01:07:07.800 --> 01:07:10.159
<v Speaker 2>but just never been motivated to go back through it

957
01:07:10.280 --> 01:07:12.920
<v Speaker 2>and got a lot out of it. But if people

958
01:07:12.960 --> 01:07:15.760
<v Speaker 2>are interested in you, interested in your work, what's a

959
01:07:15.800 --> 01:07:16.880
<v Speaker 2>good way for them to find more?

960
01:07:18.079 --> 01:07:20.840
<v Speaker 1>Sure, I've got a weekly column over at Blaze Media.

961
01:07:21.639 --> 01:07:26.079
<v Speaker 1>I'm I'm writing you know, about once a month for

962
01:07:26.079 --> 01:07:31.320
<v Speaker 1>for FAI Foundation for American Innovation. Always lurking in some

963
01:07:31.360 --> 01:07:35.559
<v Speaker 1>capacity on x dot com the everything app at James Pulis.

964
01:07:35.880 --> 01:07:38.880
<v Speaker 1>Dms are open, so you know, hit me up if

965
01:07:38.920 --> 01:07:43.519
<v Speaker 1>you've got something worthwhile. Don't don't abuse me, please, I

966
01:07:43.519 --> 01:07:48.079
<v Speaker 1>would hate to have to lock my dms. And gosh,

967
01:07:48.119 --> 01:07:49.440
<v Speaker 1>what else you know?

968
01:07:49.519 --> 01:07:49.920
<v Speaker 3>Books?

969
01:07:50.320 --> 01:07:55.880
<v Speaker 1>Human Forever is the tech book I do say? Do

970
01:07:55.920 --> 01:07:57.760
<v Speaker 1>you dare say that it's it's ahead of its time?

971
01:07:58.159 --> 01:08:02.119
<v Speaker 1>That's on canonic dot x y z available only for bitcoin.

972
01:08:03.039 --> 01:08:05.800
<v Speaker 1>It's it's important. You know, people need to be using

973
01:08:05.800 --> 01:08:07.960
<v Speaker 1>this stuff if they want to not be trapped in

974
01:08:08.719 --> 01:08:11.599
<v Speaker 1>the world of fed bucks and the world of uh,

975
01:08:12.119 --> 01:08:14.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, to talk to the bot instead of talked

976
01:08:14.039 --> 01:08:17.399
<v Speaker 1>to the hand. I think that's probably enough. I'm I'm

977
01:08:17.399 --> 01:08:20.079
<v Speaker 1>floating around UH and UH and I like to talk.

978
01:08:20.239 --> 01:08:23.840
<v Speaker 1>So there's lots to do and loss to think through.

979
01:08:24.119 --> 01:08:28.239
<v Speaker 1>And we we do still have a window. We still

980
01:08:28.279 --> 01:08:31.039
<v Speaker 1>have some time to to get it together before it's

981
01:08:31.079 --> 01:08:31.439
<v Speaker 1>too late.

982
01:08:33.000 --> 01:08:35.920
<v Speaker 2>Well yeah, man, I'm really interested to see your book

983
01:08:35.960 --> 01:08:37.920
<v Speaker 2>when it comes out. I'll be sure to grab a

984
01:08:37.960 --> 01:08:41.159
<v Speaker 2>copy of it. Thanks again for making time. I enjoyed it.

985
01:08:41.560 --> 01:08:43.520
<v Speaker 2>Everyone at home, keep your height up. Well, I can't

986
01:08:43.600 --> 01:08:44.119
<v Speaker 2>last forever.

987
01:08:44.279 --> 01:09:03.279
<v Speaker 3>Good night. That's that's.

988
01:09:05.079 --> 01:09:05.520
<v Speaker 1>That's the

989
01:09:08.079 --> 01:09:11.640
<v Speaker 2>Bagariagary Program.