WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:02.040 So you want to go up this road here and 2 00:00:02.080 --> 00:00:03.879 get to the roundabit. You take a left and then 3 00:00:03.919 --> 00:00:05.759 you go past the Murphy's house, you know, to Murphy's 4 00:00:05.759 --> 00:00:06.799 their young lad, Sean. 5 00:00:06.799 --> 00:00:08.240 I think he's over in London. 6 00:00:07.960 --> 00:00:13.439 Now, Oh yeah. FBD doesn't stand for frustratingly bad directions. 7 00:00:14.119 --> 00:00:18.079 FBD stands for support. We support van drivers in Ireland 8 00:00:18.160 --> 00:00:20.800 with up to seventy five percent off new van policies. 9 00:00:21.160 --> 00:00:24.480 FBD Insurance Support. It's what we do. Can't miss it. 10 00:00:24.559 --> 00:00:26.760 Once you pass there, a little terrier will start to 11 00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:29.320 chase yet and once he gives up, you should be there. 12 00:00:29.800 --> 00:00:32.479 Seventy five percent off based on five years no claims discount, 13 00:00:32.560 --> 00:00:35.719 terms and conditions apply. Underwritten by FBD Insurance Plc FBD 14 00:00:35.799 --> 00:00:38.640 Insurance Group Limited training as FBD Insurance is regulated by 15 00:00:38.640 --> 00:00:39.600 the Central Bank of Ireland. 16 00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:42.399 Oh hey, it's a guy at the coffee shop overthinking 17 00:00:42.479 --> 00:00:46.079 his milk choice. Ali Ward misologies. This is not when 18 00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:48.640 you start coming, is it, unless you're either a Harvard 19 00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:52.520 and Princeton trained philosopher and academic. But my guest is 20 00:00:52.640 --> 00:00:55.759 a Harvard in Princeton trained philosopher and academic. He's a 21 00:00:55.799 --> 00:00:58.399 member of the Center for brain science and a professor 22 00:00:58.439 --> 00:01:02.240 of psychology at Harvard. He's dedicated his life and career 23 00:01:02.600 --> 00:01:05.840 to the psychology in the neuroscience of how the brain 24 00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:11.359 forms complex ideas and makes choices and uses real, real 25 00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:14.959 philosophical homdingers in his analyzes, and one of the courses 26 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:19.840 he teaches is titled Evolving Morality from Primordial Soup to 27 00:01:20.040 --> 00:01:24.840 super Intelligent Machines. And he wrote the book Moral Tribes, Emotion, Reason, 28 00:01:25.079 --> 00:01:28.920 and the Gap between Us and Them. Now, during this interview, 29 00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:31.359 we chatted via a video call, and I had to 30 00:01:31.400 --> 00:01:35.239 ask the guests a few times to make sure that 31 00:01:35.359 --> 00:01:37.480 the collar of his shirt wasn't rubbing on his mic, 32 00:01:37.799 --> 00:01:40.760 and the best solution was to undo a couple of 33 00:01:40.799 --> 00:01:43.560 shirt buttons and display his collar out like he was 34 00:01:43.599 --> 00:01:46.159 gonna saund toronto a dance floor in Miami. And he 35 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:49.280 seemed genuinely mortified by it. But I like to think 36 00:01:49.319 --> 00:01:51.920 that it made for a super casual vibe. This is 37 00:01:51.959 --> 00:01:55.079 such a fun conversation. Never did you think gruesome philosophy 38 00:01:55.120 --> 00:01:58.040 could be this engaging and friendly. But the moral thought 39 00:01:58.079 --> 00:02:01.640 experiment that's now known as the ty problem, it originated 40 00:02:01.640 --> 00:02:05.359 with this English philosopher, Philippa Foot who wrote on virtue 41 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:08.759 ethics like if a streetcar or a trolley is careening 42 00:02:09.039 --> 00:02:12.039 on a track that splits, is diverting it to kill 43 00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:16.960 fewer people. Ethical philosopher Judith Jarvis Thompson used that example 44 00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:20.199 in nineteen seventy six after Philippa did and coined it 45 00:02:20.280 --> 00:02:23.439 the trolley problem. So we're off to these like streetcar 46 00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:27.599 races and the trolley problem examines morals and ethics and 47 00:02:27.719 --> 00:02:31.520 utilitarianism and religion and sacrifice and how to look at 48 00:02:31.560 --> 00:02:34.719 the principles of the greater good. Also looks at neuroscience, 49 00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:36.039 so we're going to get into that. But first, thank 50 00:02:36.039 --> 00:02:37.719 you so much to patrons of the show who support 51 00:02:37.800 --> 00:02:40.280 us for a dollar or more a month and submit 52 00:02:40.360 --> 00:02:43.400 questions for Theologist before we record. Thank you to everyone 53 00:02:43.439 --> 00:02:46.319 out there wearing ologies merch from ologiesmerch dot com. And 54 00:02:46.360 --> 00:02:48.800 thank you to everyone who leaves reviews of the show, 55 00:02:49.039 --> 00:02:51.000 which keeps it up in the charts. And also I 56 00:02:51.039 --> 00:02:53.800 read them all, such as this recent one from KWZ, 57 00:02:54.000 --> 00:02:56.599 New York, whod wrote, come for the science and fun facts, 58 00:02:56.680 --> 00:02:59.680 but you'll leave with one remarkable example after another of 59 00:02:59.719 --> 00:03:03.039 human beings who care deeply about the world. So thank 60 00:03:03.080 --> 00:03:06.599 you kwz and why for caring enough to submit a review. 61 00:03:06.919 --> 00:03:09.800 I read every single one, so keep them coming and 62 00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:12.919 know that they make your internet Dad the lady named 63 00:03:12.919 --> 00:03:15.719 me cry sometimes. Also, if you do need any shorter, 64 00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:18.240 kid friendly, non swearing episodes, you can find those in 65 00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:23.479 their own feed wherever you get podcasts, they're called somologies smologies. Okay, 66 00:03:23.520 --> 00:03:26.759 let's get into what makes you a good person? How 67 00:03:26.840 --> 00:03:30.520 far would you go to save others? Which charities should 68 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:34.639 get your cash? Why are the political divides killing people? 69 00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:38.479 What is active versus passive harm? What would a monk do? 70 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:43.479 How neurodivergence influences moral decisions? Is religion a moral compass? 71 00:03:43.639 --> 00:03:45.680 How to reason with your relatives who vote in ways 72 00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:47.280 that make you want to scream into a jar like 73 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:50.280 you have somebody sam possibly your new favorite skeleton on 74 00:03:50.280 --> 00:03:53.400 the planet. And if you'd pull a lever or go 75 00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:59.240 a step further with philosopher, professor, author, nonprofit champion, and 76 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:04.240 official trileologist, it's a real word, Doctor Joshua Green. 77 00:04:22.920 --> 00:04:25.360 My name is Joshua Green, and I'm a professor in 78 00:04:25.399 --> 00:04:28.199 the Department of Psychology and Center for Brain Science at 79 00:04:28.199 --> 00:04:31.399 Harvard University, and I use him pronouns. 80 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:34.040 Great. That is quite a bio. 81 00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:37.399 How long have you been at Harvard Gosh? I got 82 00:04:37.399 --> 00:04:39.800 here as a professor in two thousand and six, so 83 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:42.959 we're coming up on nineteen years. And then I was 84 00:04:42.959 --> 00:04:45.920 a wee undergrad here in the nineties as mostly a 85 00:04:45.959 --> 00:04:46.959 philosophy student. 86 00:04:47.279 --> 00:04:49.759 Take me back to the nineties as a philosophy student, 87 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:53.360 long hair, hacky sack buttoned up. What was your vibe? 88 00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:57.680 Just nerd? You know, I think I was just really 89 00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:01.639 into it and I never had a sort of form 90 00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:04.519 of cool that went with being a philosopher. 91 00:05:04.839 --> 00:05:05.720 What got you into it? 92 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:09.079 I mean you could go way way back, asking lots 93 00:05:09.079 --> 00:05:12.959 and lots of questions As a kid, I remember kind 94 00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:16.519 of being unsatisfied with a lot of the answers I 95 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:18.759 was given in Hebrew School. I was raised in a 96 00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:22.240 very sort of you know, fairly reformed, secular Jewish family. 97 00:05:22.759 --> 00:05:25.680 You know. I always used to argue, and someone was like, well, 98 00:05:25.720 --> 00:05:27.600 we got to put this to good use and suggested 99 00:05:27.639 --> 00:05:30.279 that I do debate. So I started doing debate when 100 00:05:30.319 --> 00:05:32.759 I was like twelve, and I was a pretty young 101 00:05:32.920 --> 00:05:36.279 twelve year old. So I was like this little argumentative 102 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:40.160 towerp with my don't ask me, why yellow pants that 103 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:42.399 I wore. I think I didn't realize that was funky. 104 00:05:42.439 --> 00:05:45.040 That was just the pants that I had. And you know, 105 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:47.959 someone called me mister banana pants at age twelve as 106 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:51.399 a debater, a's harsh, but I got interested in the questions, 107 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:54.319 and a lot of the questions were really about sort 108 00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:57.000 of fundamental social trade offs, you know, the rights of 109 00:05:57.040 --> 00:05:59.920 the individual versus the greater good kind of came up 110 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:03.160 over and over again. And this person said, so, you know, 111 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:05.800 like in cross examination that it's very formal. It's like, 112 00:06:06.040 --> 00:06:08.439 so do you agree that you're saying that it's better 113 00:06:08.480 --> 00:06:10.720 to always do the thing that will promote the greater good? 114 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:13.199 And I'm like, yes, yes, yes, And then she said, okay, Well, 115 00:06:13.240 --> 00:06:16.519 suppose there was a doctor who had some patients, and 116 00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:19.879 five of these patients were missing organs of various kinds. 117 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:23.199 And then incomes a healthy person with two nice, clean, 118 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:26.439 ready to go kidneys and a liver, and you could 119 00:06:26.519 --> 00:06:29.279 take the organs out of this one person and distribute 120 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:31.319 them to these other five people, and assume that you know, 121 00:06:31.800 --> 00:06:34.399 the operation would work. Would it be okay for the 122 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:36.879 doctor to sacrifice that one person to save the other 123 00:06:36.920 --> 00:06:42.800 five patients, and I was like, you know, and I 124 00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:45.360 lost that debate round. But even worse, I kind of 125 00:06:45.399 --> 00:06:50.360 lost my guiding philosophy that was always my go to, right, 126 00:06:50.720 --> 00:06:54.639 and that really stuck with me. And this introduced me 127 00:06:54.680 --> 00:06:58.199 to the trolley problem, which was really the underlying sort 128 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:01.920 of philosophical exploration of these sacrificial dilemmas where you can 129 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:04.079 kill one person to save five people. And what was 130 00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:08.879 beautiful about that was it had a really nice tight comparison. Right, 131 00:07:08.920 --> 00:07:11.360 So this is now at the time, no one outside 132 00:07:11.399 --> 00:07:13.519 of philosophy had heard of these things. So the trolley 133 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:15.480 for the people who don't know, like for the eight 134 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:17.759 people out there who've never heard of this, the trolley 135 00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:20.120 is headed towards five people, and you can hit a 136 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:22.480 switch and turn it onto another track where it will 137 00:07:22.519 --> 00:07:26.040 run over one person. Most people say that that's acceptable. 138 00:07:26.319 --> 00:07:28.959 Okay, so you're at the controls of a trolley and 139 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:31.839 you have a track with five people on it about 140 00:07:31.879 --> 00:07:35.160 to become hamburger meat by fate, or you can switch 141 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:37.920 tracks and you can kill one person to save the 142 00:07:37.959 --> 00:07:42.079 other five. Most people are like, yeah, just let's temper 143 00:07:42.120 --> 00:07:45.439 with fate. Let's kill the one. Also, that person dies 144 00:07:45.480 --> 00:07:47.480 a hero and then you get to go to therapy 145 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:49.319 every day for the rest of your life. But the 146 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:52.920 more complex like leveling up of the trolley problem is 147 00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:56.040 instead of those two tracks, instead of that four five 148 00:07:56.120 --> 00:07:59.279 on one, one on the other. Instead you have a 149 00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:02.839 footbridge or like an overpass right above the tracks. There's 150 00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:06.759 one track below you. Five people are tied to the track. 151 00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:09.279 I don't know who did it. That's not part of 152 00:08:09.319 --> 00:08:14.319 the philosophical equation. But you're on that footbridge overpass, standing 153 00:08:15.079 --> 00:08:17.839 on it, looking down at this track, five people tied 154 00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:19.560 to it, and you're standing next to a big, tall 155 00:08:19.600 --> 00:08:22.560 person with like a heavy backpack enough weight to stop 156 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:25.000 the trolley from running over the five people below. Do 157 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:27.000 you push that big tall person with a backpack who's 158 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:29.199 standing next to you onto the tracks below? 159 00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:32.159 They get hit by the trolley, but it stops the 160 00:08:32.200 --> 00:08:35.919 trolley from running over the fire. Is that okay? I felt, 161 00:08:35.960 --> 00:08:38.600 And most people think that that's wrong. And I thought, ah, 162 00:08:38.679 --> 00:08:42.240 this is like the perfect fruit fly, because here you've 163 00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:47.399 got the biggest divide in Western moral philosophies between the 164 00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:50.720 utilitarians like John Stuart Mill and Jeremy Bentham, who are 165 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:53.879 saying realities ultimately about producing good consequences. 166 00:08:54.200 --> 00:08:57.519 So John Stuart Mill was a philosopher and a politician 167 00:08:57.600 --> 00:09:00.919 in the mid eighteen hundreds who advocated for women's rights 168 00:09:00.919 --> 00:09:06.519 in social liberalism, and his predecessor was this legendary Jeremy Bentham, 169 00:09:06.759 --> 00:09:11.080 who was a founding figure of utilitarianism, which steers people 170 00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:14.679 toward doing walt Wolf results and the greatest good for 171 00:09:14.720 --> 00:09:17.879 the greatest number of people. Now, people who lean toward 172 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:21.639 the ethics of Emmanuel Kant, however, say that happiness can 173 00:09:21.679 --> 00:09:24.360 be elusive, it's different for different people, and it can 174 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:28.840 come and go, and consequences shouldn't determine actions. Rather, morality 175 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:31.480 is independent of its effect, and it's guided by these 176 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:33.759 universal laws of what is right. 177 00:09:34.120 --> 00:09:38.159 And the Kantians who say no, morality is fundamentally about 178 00:09:38.360 --> 00:09:40.960 people's rights and our duties to respect those rights, and 179 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:44.039 certain lines that must not be crossed or must be crossed. 180 00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:47.159 And in the original switch case, where you can turn 181 00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:49.720 the trolley away from the five and onto the one 182 00:09:50.159 --> 00:09:52.679 to the extent you agree with most people that it's 183 00:09:52.679 --> 00:09:55.600 okay to hit the switch, that fits very well with 184 00:09:55.639 --> 00:10:00.240 the utilitarian perspective. More consequentialist is how philosophers often say it. 185 00:10:00.279 --> 00:10:02.279 Okay, but remember we take it up a notch, not 186 00:10:02.440 --> 00:10:06.320 just by like switching a mere lever to save five 187 00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:09.200 people to kill one, but rather by heaving a bystander 188 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:11.799 onto the tracks of an overpass footbridge. 189 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:15.159 But the footbridge case, it seems like a real vindication 190 00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:18.480 for conton the continents. That know, even sometimes when it's 191 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:21.000 you can promote the greater good, even if we grant 192 00:10:21.039 --> 00:10:23.559 that all of this will work, et cetera, it still 193 00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:26.480 seems wrong, right, Yeah, And I felt that, and I 194 00:10:26.519 --> 00:10:29.159 was like, what is going on there? And then I 195 00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:33.519 got more into the psychology and ultimately into the neuroscience 196 00:10:33.960 --> 00:10:39.320 behind that switch footbridge distinction in our heads, and that 197 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:42.080 kind of is what turned me from being just a 198 00:10:42.120 --> 00:10:48.639 regular philosopher into being a philosopher slash experimental psychologists slash 199 00:10:48.919 --> 00:10:50.360 cognitive neuroscientist. 200 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:52.759 When it comes to philosophy, A lot of us, you know, 201 00:10:52.840 --> 00:10:54.279 like I asked at the top, like did you have 202 00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:56.279 long hair in a hackey sack? A lot of us 203 00:10:56.399 --> 00:11:00.919 don't meet a lot of philosophers, right, especially professional ones, 204 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:06.720 And so it's such a niche and esoteric and can 205 00:11:06.879 --> 00:11:11.279 even fathom what level you're on what is a philosopher 206 00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:15.519 and what is philosophy and what's the importance of them 207 00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:18.639 in society? Do they impact the way that laws are enforced, 208 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:22.120 to the impact Supreme Court decisions like where where is 209 00:11:22.159 --> 00:11:24.120 philosophy in our society? 210 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:28.960 So there are some philosophers whose ideas really matter a lot. 211 00:11:29.279 --> 00:11:32.639 And the living philosopher who's been most important to me 212 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:35.679 is the philosopher Peter Singer, who kind of blew my 213 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:40.159 mind back in those early days when I was thinking 214 00:11:40.200 --> 00:11:42.039 about these types of moral dilemmas. 215 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:44.759 Just a quick background, So Peter Singer, still very much 216 00:11:44.759 --> 00:11:47.320 alive seventy nine years old, is a moral philosopher and 217 00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:51.360 a bioethics professor from Australia, and his angle is how 218 00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:53.720 do we apply ethics to get the greatest amount of 219 00:11:53.720 --> 00:11:56.759 happiness for the greatest number of people or living things. 220 00:11:57.279 --> 00:12:00.360 He's come under fire for applying these principles to issues 221 00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:03.240 of eugenics, and in a twenty twenty one paper can 222 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:08.240 Eugenics Be Defended, he and co authors address the intersections 223 00:12:08.279 --> 00:12:14.840 of genetic screening, abortion, genetic enhancements, eradicationism, and even some 224 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:18.240 simple prenatal care, and the boundary between the kinds of 225 00:12:18.279 --> 00:12:21.639 eugenic practices we allow, but many have said that he's 226 00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:23.639 been on the wrong side of that boundary in terms 227 00:12:23.679 --> 00:12:26.960 of ableism. And there is a reason that the trolley 228 00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:31.159 problem has vexed people and philosophers for decades since it 229 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:33.879 was coined. These are very tough issues and there is 230 00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:37.320 a lot of disagreement for very good reason. But back 231 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:40.720 to why some people sing Peter Singer's praises in the 232 00:12:40.759 --> 00:12:44.320 philosophy world and in the ethics world. He was into 233 00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:48.799 animal welfare before it was cool, and he's also spent 234 00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:52.320 decades saying like, hey, rich people, how about helping others hmm. 235 00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:56.919 Hm, and his ideas have literally saved millions of people's lives. 236 00:12:57.279 --> 00:13:01.440 So philosophy is kind of a It's a high stakes 237 00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:03.519 hit or miss. The people who make a difference make 238 00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:07.159 an enormous difference. And part of why I expanded into 239 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:09.600 science is I felt like if I had any shot 240 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:12.759 at making a difference as a philosopher, I'm in a 241 00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:15.480 better position to do it as a philosopher scientist who 242 00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:17.759 can look at what's going on in our heads and 243 00:13:17.799 --> 00:13:20.960 say this is what's happening. And when you understand that, 244 00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:23.679 does that change our thinking about what's really right or wrong? 245 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:27.320 Yeah, and what was his study? Can you explain that? 246 00:13:27.799 --> 00:13:30.960 Well? So, Peter Singer is known for many a few things. 247 00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:33.799 I mean, one of them is essentially being the philosophical 248 00:13:33.799 --> 00:13:35.960 grandfather of the animal rights movement. So he wrote a 249 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:39.200 book called Animal Liberation that came out in the seventies 250 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:42.840 and it starts out in an interesting way. He says, 251 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:45.399 you know, people say, oh, you're writing a book about 252 00:13:45.399 --> 00:13:48.440 animal rights, you must really love animals, And he says, no, 253 00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:50.919 it's not about what I love or don't love, or 254 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:53.519 want to cuddle up with or play fetch with. It's 255 00:13:53.559 --> 00:13:57.159 about whether or not animals suffer, which is a point 256 00:13:57.159 --> 00:14:01.519 that Jeremy Bentham, the original utilitarian in the eighteenth century, made, 257 00:14:02.039 --> 00:14:06.799 and he sort of made the case that our practices, 258 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:10.559 especially with factory farming, which just can't be morally justified. 259 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:13.320 The other big thing that he did, and this is 260 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:15.159 the thing that is probably had the most direct influence 261 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:18.840 on my work, is his famous drowning child argument. So 262 00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:20.720 you may have heard some version of this. You're walking 263 00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:23.840 along and there's a pond, and there is a child 264 00:14:23.919 --> 00:14:26.080 who is drowning in the pond, and you can wade 265 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:28.440 in and save this child, but you're going to ruin 266 00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:30.519 your fancy new shoes or suit or whatever it is, 267 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:32.200 and it will cost you some amount of money to 268 00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:34.720 replace them. And if you ask people, is it okay 269 00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:36.600 to let the child drown because you don't want to 270 00:14:36.679 --> 00:14:39.759 ruin your clothes, most people would say no, that's terrible, 271 00:14:39.799 --> 00:14:42.879 that's monstrous, okay, And Peter Singer says good. I agree, 272 00:14:42.919 --> 00:14:44.679 And then he says, but there are children on the 273 00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:46.960 other side of the world who are drowning in poverty, 274 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:49.799 who are badly in need of food and medicine. And 275 00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:52.799 for the price of the clothes that you're wearing, you 276 00:14:53.240 --> 00:14:55.519 or you, combined with a small number of other people, 277 00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:58.360 can save someone's life. 278 00:14:58.759 --> 00:14:59.159 Well. 279 00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:02.600 Shit, So if you have an obligation to wade into 280 00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:06.000 the pond and save the child at some expense to yourself, 281 00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:10.679 why don't you have a comparable obligation to save people 282 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:13.480 nearby or on the other side of the world whose 283 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:17.360 lives are in grave danger due to their circumstances. And 284 00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:19.840 a lot of people spent a lot of time trying 285 00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:22.320 to argue why Singer was wrong, but I was convinced 286 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:24.639 that he was right. Even if it goes against the 287 00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:27.960 grain of human nature. So Singer essentially made the argument 288 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:30.799 that we in the affluent world should be doing much 289 00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:34.799 more for people in desperate need. And typically your money 290 00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:39.200 goes farthest overseas. You can provide a treatment that rids 291 00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:42.679 a child of devastating parasitic intestinal worms for less than 292 00:15:42.679 --> 00:15:45.200 a dollar, right, and for one hundred dollars you can 293 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:48.519 do it one hundred times. There's effectively no limit, right, 294 00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:52.600 And that argument really stuck with me and has motivated 295 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:53.679 a lot of the other work. 296 00:15:53.960 --> 00:15:56.360 And you know, you've been in the game for thirty years. Now, 297 00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:00.840 do you see any changes that happen as the world changes? 298 00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:03.240 As human beings who have been around for three hundred 299 00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:05.799 thousand years, we didn't always know about someone who was 300 00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:08.399 suffering on the other side of the world. We didn't 301 00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:10.399 know about a lot of things that weren't local to us. 302 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:13.679 We didn't have factory farming. So do you feel like 303 00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:17.080 these philosophical problems are kind of a moving target as 304 00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:18.279 our way of life changes? 305 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:22.240 Absolutely? I mean take the case of animal rights. I mean, 306 00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:25.600 when Singer wrote animal liberation, is that just a tiny 307 00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:29.679 fraction of the population that was vegetarian or vegan for 308 00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:33.039 moral reasons right, especially in the West, or people who 309 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:35.559 didn't weren't already part of a religious tradition. Let's say 310 00:16:35.559 --> 00:16:39.399 that had that kind of norm. Now there's nothing remarkable 311 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:42.120 at all about meeting someone who's the vegetarian or these 312 00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:45.559 days even a vegan because they don't want to participate 313 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:48.840 in killing animals and making them suffer. And then the 314 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:51.679 other thing is in terms of people in the affluent 315 00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:55.960 world using their money effectively to alleviate as much suffering 316 00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:59.720 as possible, which mostly means overseas. That movement really took 317 00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:04.839 off and billions have been raised very explicitly under this 318 00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:08.759 philosophical banner. It's been a little complicated recently. So this 319 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:11.319 is what I'm referring to as the effective altruism movement. 320 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:14.960 Okay, so effective altruism. It's been in the headlines for 321 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:17.720 a lot of good reasons a little bit of bad reasons. 322 00:17:17.960 --> 00:17:21.920 So on one hand, it's saved countless lives, it's raised 323 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:27.039 billions of dollars from wealthy, wealthy donors. Some billionaires pledge 324 00:17:27.079 --> 00:17:29.920 a percentage of their annual income to the most effective 325 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:33.160 charities on the globe. On the other hand, there was 326 00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:36.240 this young cryptocurrency billionaire who was like a staunch advocate 327 00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:39.720 publicly of effective altruism and is now serving twenty five 328 00:17:39.799 --> 00:17:42.799 years in prison for defrauding his investors and being on 329 00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:47.640 record saying that he used effective altruism to just bolster 330 00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:50.119 his platform and his image is a good guy. So 331 00:17:50.599 --> 00:17:56.559 billionaire downfalls, philosophy gossip. It's got it all, including accidental 332 00:17:56.640 --> 00:18:00.559 dad jokes. Because the incarcerated finance guy's name is Samuel 333 00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:05.440 Bankman Freed, and unfortunately he is no longer a bankman, 334 00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:09.440 nor is he free. But back to trolleology and what 335 00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:12.640 about the experimental psychology side of it and the neuroscience 336 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:14.160 side of it. When you're looking at something like the 337 00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:17.279 trolley problem, can you take one life to spare five? 338 00:18:17.720 --> 00:18:21.240 Are you putting people in fMRI machines? Are you having 339 00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:24.359 them fill out questionnaires? Are you mostly talking to students 340 00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:26.799 or are you going out man on the street style, 341 00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:29.480 like how are how do you collect data on these kind. 342 00:18:29.319 --> 00:18:32.400 Of moral dilemmas? So all of the above, Okay, the 343 00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:35.440 sort of breakthrough experiment that I did while I was 344 00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:38.519 a philosophy PhD student, and this was done with my 345 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:42.680 mentor then Jonathan Cohen, who's still at Princeton, I had 346 00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:46.440 the thought that what's going on in the footbridge case 347 00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:50.240 is there's a kind of an emotional response to the 348 00:18:50.279 --> 00:18:52.400 thought of sort of pushing this person and harming them 349 00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:54.400 in this very sort of direct and intentional way. 350 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:58.039 So remember in the footbridge case, it's not just this 351 00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:01.799 switch lever. In the footbridge scenario, you are laying hands 352 00:19:01.799 --> 00:19:04.200 on a person to geet them onto the tracks to 353 00:19:04.279 --> 00:19:08.000 save five people? Is it rude? Deeply? Is it morally sound? 354 00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:10.440 And that you could see that response in the brain. 355 00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:12.519 So if you put people in the scanner and you 356 00:19:12.599 --> 00:19:16.160 have them consider dilemmas like the switch case and dilemmas 357 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:19.720 like the footbridge case, you'd see more activity related to 358 00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:22.200 a kind of emotional response. In the footbridge case. The 359 00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:25.680 stronger that response, the more people would say, no, you 360 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:27.880 can't push the guy off the footbridge or whatever it is. 361 00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:32.559 And we found something broadly consistent with that in that 362 00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:35.960 first neuroimaging study, which was published in two thousand and one. 363 00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:39.680 That two thousand and one first neuroimaging study was this 364 00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:44.279 breakthrough paper titled an Integrative Theory of Prefrontal cortex function, 365 00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:49.880 which proposed that cognitive control stems from the active maintenance 366 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:54.480 of patterns of activity in the prefrontal cortex that represents 367 00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:57.319 goals and the means to achieve them. When people talk 368 00:19:57.359 --> 00:20:00.680 about the prefrontal cortex, this is the paper they're talking about. 369 00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:04.880 It's been cited in twelve three hundred and ninety other papers. 370 00:20:05.079 --> 00:20:07.319 That's what a lot of academics consider a shitload. 371 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:10.240 The cool thing about brain imaging is that you can 372 00:20:10.279 --> 00:20:12.359 look and see what's going on, but it's a very 373 00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:16.000 noisy signal, and you don't have experimental control. Right. You 374 00:20:16.039 --> 00:20:18.039 can change what people are reading or are asked to 375 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:20.720 think about, but you can't turn on or off some 376 00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:21.480 part of the brain. 377 00:20:21.799 --> 00:20:24.359 So these imaging studies, and some that came after his 378 00:20:24.440 --> 00:20:28.759 first work was published, included volunteers who had sustained brain injury. 379 00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:31.000 Whereas a brain lesion that part of the brain is 380 00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:35.440 permanently turned off. Right, And so the actual studies or 381 00:20:35.480 --> 00:20:37.759 the work that made me think to make that prediction 382 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:41.920 about brain imaging was work with patients like the famous 383 00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:45.640 case of Phineas Gauge. To this, so, Phineas Gauge is 384 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:48.680 the nineteenth century railroad foreman who was working on the 385 00:20:48.759 --> 00:20:51.880 railroad all the livelong day in Vermont and got an 386 00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:55.839 iron spike through the front of his head, and as 387 00:20:55.880 --> 00:20:59.000 a result, was fundamentally changed. I mean, you might think 388 00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:01.599 that someone who had that kind of injury, they wouldn't 389 00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:03.480 be able to speak, They wouldn't been able to ever 390 00:21:03.519 --> 00:21:07.720 do another math problem. His sort of rational faculties and 391 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:11.359 language faculties and just general sort of thinking ability remained intact, 392 00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:15.720 but his emotions and his decision making were very much damaged. 393 00:21:16.119 --> 00:21:19.519 By his emotions and decision making being very much damaged, 394 00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:23.039 Josh means that, Yeah, when this young rail worker was 395 00:21:23.160 --> 00:21:27.599 penetrated by a forty three inch iron bar that exited 396 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:30.920 his skull and then clattered to the ground eighty feet away, 397 00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:34.640 he survived. He lived for twelve more years. But yeah, 398 00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:38.119 his social inhibitions vanished. He developed what people said was 399 00:21:38.119 --> 00:21:43.160 a very surly and sometimes violent disposition. He took to 400 00:21:43.240 --> 00:21:46.240 some heavy drinking. I'm willing to bet he did quite 401 00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:48.440