1 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist 2 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:24,480 Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at The 3 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:29,600 Federalist and your experienced Shirpa on today's Quest for Knowledge. 4 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,840 As always, you can email the show at radio at 5 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:37,719 the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at FDR LST, 6 00:00:38,439 --> 00:00:41,399 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and 7 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,840 of course to the premium version of our website as well. 8 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:50,280 Our guest today is Matthew Spalding, vice president of Washington 9 00:00:50,359 --> 00:00:55,640 Operations in Dean of the Vandel Graduate School of Government 10 00:00:56,119 --> 00:01:01,039 at Hillsdale College. Matthew is also author of a new book, 11 00:01:01,159 --> 00:01:04,879 The Making of the American Mind, the Story of our 12 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:09,680 Declaration of Independence. It's a different view than Ken Burns 13 00:01:10,439 --> 00:01:14,719 or the History Channel's leftist prism of the founding Matthew, 14 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:16,599 thank you so much for joining us today on the 15 00:01:16,599 --> 00:01:17,599 Federalist Radio Hour. 16 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:18,879 Speaker 2: It's great to be with you. 17 00:01:19,519 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: Absolutely, this is I think, more than anything, it is 18 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:29,239 a book about sacrifice and unity and what all of 19 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,239 that meant to the founding generations. As we talk about 20 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:37,000 the making of the American Mind, let us begin with 21 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:43,040 the minds of the people who made America, the founders. 22 00:01:43,359 --> 00:01:48,719 What were these people like? Obviously they were very dedicated 23 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,359 to a principle, and that principle did not come without 24 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:54,200 cost for these people. 25 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 2: Right, I know that's actually your opening thoughts. There a 26 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:02,280 nice setup, because what I wanted to do. You know, 27 00:02:02,319 --> 00:02:05,719 we oftentimes, you know, the concept of the American Founding 28 00:02:05,799 --> 00:02:08,280 in the American Revolution obviously is an important point of 29 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:10,520 part of us, and we talk about it a lot. 30 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,400 There are lots of books written on it. I wanted 31 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:15,680 to take a bit of a different tact, if you will, 32 00:02:16,439 --> 00:02:18,319 which you've kind of picked up on there, which is 33 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:24,120 that the Declaration, which is a document that's the law 34 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:28,719 widely studied, actually has a story to it. There's a 35 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,879 narrative about it, and you know, sometimes we too often 36 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,479 look at it and kind of read it coldly, if 37 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,479 you will. You know, there was this declaration that Jefferson wrote, 38 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,319 then there's a little thing called the Revolution, and then 39 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:46,039 later there was a constitution, whereas in reality it's it's 40 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,919 much more than that, And it turns out the story 41 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,840 of that is much more, much more compelling, much more interesting, 42 00:02:52,919 --> 00:03:00,840 much more dynamic, and much more powerful. So the title 43 00:03:00,879 --> 00:03:03,520 I'd chosen here The making of the American Mind actually 44 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,560 comes from a letter that Jesson writes in eighteen twenty 45 00:03:06,599 --> 00:03:09,439 five when he says, look, I wasn't trying to invent 46 00:03:09,479 --> 00:03:13,159 any new ideas or come up with any new theories here. 47 00:03:14,319 --> 00:03:17,520 I was writing this to express as an expression of 48 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,759 the American mind, which is a He knew that he 49 00:03:20,879 --> 00:03:23,719 was the drafter of the document, but what he was 50 00:03:23,759 --> 00:03:27,240 writing for were all the other members of the Continual Congress. 51 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:30,479 This is a legislative document, after all, passed by the 52 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:35,240 Continual Congress. They debate it for two days. That they 53 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:37,599 debate his draft for two days and edit it, cut 54 00:03:37,639 --> 00:03:40,159 it by about a third. It's already been edited by 55 00:03:40,159 --> 00:03:43,560 a committee which included John Adams and Ben Franklin. So 56 00:03:43,639 --> 00:03:47,199 there's this bigger thing, this thing called the American mind, 57 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:51,840 which Jeffson beautifully. I give him all credit for his 58 00:03:52,639 --> 00:03:56,439 turns of words, which he's very gifted with. He was 59 00:03:56,439 --> 00:03:58,919 trying to capture that mind, and so a lot of 60 00:03:58,919 --> 00:04:03,560 the book is trying to tell the declaration story, how 61 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,439 it was debated and all that, and then going through 62 00:04:06,479 --> 00:04:11,759 the declaration like a commentary, trying to get a sense 63 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,240 of that mind which was captured in this document, but 64 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:20,560 also pamphlets, letters, writings of the time, really going back 65 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,399 to the French and War which ended in seventeen sixty three, 66 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,600 and how it developed it over those decades leading up 67 00:04:28,639 --> 00:04:32,319 to the Continental Congress and then eventually the Declaration. So 68 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:36,120 it's a much bigger swath, if you will, that captures 69 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:44,360 this generation which I broadly referred to as Ironman. Towards 70 00:04:44,399 --> 00:04:46,079 the end of the book, there's a chapter on that 71 00:04:46,079 --> 00:04:50,160 that the passing phrase that Lincoln used called him Ironman, 72 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:52,920 which you kind of alluded to about their kind of 73 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:57,879 the sacrificial. What they actually accomplished, it is quite amazing 74 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:02,920 and impressive the way they what they actually did. But 75 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:08,000 at the height of the of this conflict, I mean 76 00:05:08,079 --> 00:05:12,240 literally literally, at that very moment British warships were showing 77 00:05:12,319 --> 00:05:15,800 up in New York Harbor. This is what they produced 78 00:05:15,879 --> 00:05:18,439 and these are the ideas they expressed. And that's just 79 00:05:18,519 --> 00:05:21,399 a fabulous, fabulous story. 80 00:05:21,519 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: Yes, it is from the book, from that chapter which 81 00:05:24,879 --> 00:05:29,680 you speak, we have this. John Hancock, the President of 82 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,839 the Continental Congress, famously signed with a large, bold signature. 83 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:36,839 He is supposed to have said that now John Bull, 84 00:05:36,959 --> 00:05:41,120 the popular personification of England can read Hancock's name without 85 00:05:41,319 --> 00:05:45,279 needing spectacles, and that the king could double the reward 86 00:05:45,519 --> 00:05:49,839 on his head. When Hancock passed the quill, they all 87 00:05:49,879 --> 00:05:54,480 signed the document as individuals not identified by colony. He 88 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:59,720 reiterated the importance of unanimity and said that the delegates 89 00:05:59,759 --> 00:06:03,959 must all hang together. Benjamin Franklin is said to have 90 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:08,040 equipped in response, that we must all hang together, or 91 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:13,240 we most assuredly will all hang separately. It is a 92 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:17,959 famous line, but it is essential to understand just what 93 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:23,600 these people of this time put on the line, their 94 00:06:23,879 --> 00:06:30,560 their life, their liberty, all that they held pressures. How 95 00:06:30,639 --> 00:06:31,920 do you get how do you how do you get 96 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:32,480 to that point? 97 00:06:32,519 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 2: I guess. So let's let's back up. I mentioned earlier 98 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:44,000 that there's we sometimes again take for granted, there's this 99 00:06:44,079 --> 00:06:47,759 whole debate in the Continent Congress leading up to the declaration, 100 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:52,680 which which I follow. John Dickinson and John Adams famously 101 00:06:52,759 --> 00:06:57,399 have these long debates about independence. Jeffson arrives late. He's 102 00:06:57,399 --> 00:07:01,639 he's actually a substitute for his uncle who has to 103 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,920 go off back to the Virginia legislature. So he, you know, 104 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:08,839 arrived late in the session and is known to be 105 00:07:08,879 --> 00:07:12,439 a good writer, so they put him on a committee, 106 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:16,519 and he's trying to capture all these arguments. So though 107 00:07:16,879 --> 00:07:20,000 the bulk of the book then is really going through 108 00:07:20,079 --> 00:07:22,839 the Declaration, but in doing so I try to capture 109 00:07:22,839 --> 00:07:27,439 the larger sweeps of that of that mind. You know, 110 00:07:27,519 --> 00:07:31,759 we a lot of times we think of the the 111 00:07:31,959 --> 00:07:39,720 Founders as merely or primarily thinkers of their time. So 112 00:07:39,759 --> 00:07:45,199 they were kind of Enlightenment, early Enlightenment, you know, you know, 113 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:50,839 eighteenth century thinkers, But there's lots in the Declaration and 114 00:07:51,279 --> 00:07:53,600 all those pamphlets writes at the time that suggest a 115 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:58,639 much deeper tradition that shaped them. So I spent a 116 00:07:58,639 --> 00:08:01,600 lot of time talking about out how they were influenced 117 00:08:01,639 --> 00:08:05,120 by Greek and Roman thinkers, especially through the educational system, 118 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,680 but through their own letters, the references, including references to 119 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,879 the Declaration, and also they were deeply shaped by the 120 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:18,639 whole Christian theological tradition, both in terms of giving a 121 00:08:18,759 --> 00:08:23,120 providing a moral horizon for the whole enterprise, but also 122 00:08:23,319 --> 00:08:28,120 in particular. I mean, the Declaration is often seen as 123 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:32,840 a highly secular document, a rational secular document, but there's 124 00:08:32,879 --> 00:08:35,000 actually a lot more to it when we look at 125 00:08:35,039 --> 00:08:39,360 it more broadly, not merely as a one off writing 126 00:08:39,399 --> 00:08:44,159 of a particular individual, but this broader document that was 127 00:08:44,159 --> 00:08:49,480 put together by these all these signers who amended it 128 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:56,080 and added, for instance, additional references to the deity. You know, 129 00:08:56,519 --> 00:08:59,320 there are only two characters in the whole declaration. One 130 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,000 is the King of annd it turns out he's the 131 00:09:01,039 --> 00:09:05,679 bad guy, and but the other one is God, who 132 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,279 appears four times in the declaration, and they are juxtaposed 133 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,320 against each other, and it's it's, it's it really is 134 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:17,960 beautifully written to capture that that argument. And so I 135 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,679 think part of the the nobility of what what is 136 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,480 going on here is too is on the one hand, 137 00:09:24,919 --> 00:09:29,600 they are these great examples of their sacrifices. So in 138 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:32,399 that the chapter you're beginning to quote from, that last 139 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:37,679 chapter talks a lot about how these these signers, almost 140 00:09:37,799 --> 00:09:40,360 all of them were in the war. Many of them 141 00:09:40,399 --> 00:09:43,480 had their their sons involved in the war, several of 142 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,879 them had their sons killed in the war, are captured 143 00:09:46,919 --> 00:09:52,840 and tortured. There was one senator from New York and 144 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:57,600 the British sent cavalry to surround his house. He wasn't there. 145 00:09:57,639 --> 00:10:01,440 His wife was. She refused to give up, they sent 146 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:07,799 ships up Long Island Sound to bombard the house she 147 00:10:07,799 --> 00:10:11,200 she was captured, and she was only released after George 148 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:17,480 Washington arrested a British aristocratic woman in order to force 149 00:10:17,519 --> 00:10:19,960 a prisoner exchange. So on the one hand, you have 150 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:25,440 all these sacrifices, it shows you what they're what they were, 151 00:10:25,519 --> 00:10:28,080 they were serious. But then you have this, this, this, 152 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:33,799 this wonderful and noble statement of high principle there's really 153 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,879 been unmatched in American history. And these things are going 154 00:10:37,879 --> 00:10:41,759 on simultaneously. So at the riskiest moment, the moment when 155 00:10:41,759 --> 00:10:44,960 they knew they were signing their death warrant, literally their 156 00:10:45,039 --> 00:10:49,080 death warrant, they are also signing it on behalf of 157 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,679 one of the greatest statements of liberty in Western civilization. 158 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:56,080 Still speaks to us. 159 00:10:56,039 --> 00:11:02,039 Speaker 1: Today absolutely, And you know, we think about those profound 160 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:07,840 opening lines that have impacted, have influenced so many of 161 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:11,480 great leaders, not only in this country but around the 162 00:11:11,519 --> 00:11:17,080 world in the two hundred fifty years. Hence, but we 163 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:22,399 hold these truths to be self evident, that all men 164 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:27,679 are created equal, And let us pause on what exactly 165 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,360 that means, because I think that's central to the American mind. 166 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:36,279 You talk about God playing an important, not just an important, 167 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:41,600 a primary critical role in this, and the fact that 168 00:11:42,799 --> 00:11:47,039 most of the signers approached it from a Judeo Christian 169 00:11:47,639 --> 00:11:52,039 faith center. I know that Jefferson was described as a 170 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,960 dist clockmaker god sort of thing, all of that, but 171 00:11:56,159 --> 00:12:01,960 these yes, yes, but ask Major John Adams in particular, 172 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:07,840 very steeped in Jeneo Christian belief and faith. And that's 173 00:12:07,919 --> 00:12:11,440 that line that's in there, that all men are created equal. 174 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,360 And then it goes on to say that we have 175 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:19,960 inalienable rights. They don't come from King George, they don't 176 00:12:20,039 --> 00:12:24,200 come from a line of succession of kings and overlords. 177 00:12:24,399 --> 00:12:28,200 They come from the God of heaven and earth. How 178 00:12:28,279 --> 00:12:29,399 critical was that. 179 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,759 Speaker 2: The Greater has it doubt us? That's crucially, crucially important. 180 00:12:33,799 --> 00:12:37,879 So a couple of things to point out there first. 181 00:12:38,159 --> 00:12:42,000 I always like to it's striking that after a rather 182 00:12:42,159 --> 00:12:46,480 slow opening line, I mean of the first paragraph, when 183 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:51,200 in the course of human events almost to sleep right, 184 00:12:51,759 --> 00:12:54,840 there's this staccato line, we hold these truths to be 185 00:12:55,039 --> 00:12:59,519 self evident. Jefferson is gifted with language so that there's 186 00:12:59,519 --> 00:13:04,000 no coins, there's no it's very intentional there. But notice 187 00:13:04,279 --> 00:13:08,080 he doesn't say if this was being written today, he 188 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,720 doesn't say, we have some values we would like to 189 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:16,480 share our opinion about. Yes, this is not a subjective 190 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:26,159 statement of their particular inclination, shall we say? The larger 191 00:13:26,519 --> 00:13:30,679 message here is that there was under this is written 192 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:34,639 in the world in which man can know certain things 193 00:13:34,759 --> 00:13:39,600 about the most fundamental things. The other signal we have 194 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,759 going still in that first paragraph is the reference to 195 00:13:42,799 --> 00:13:46,519 the laws of nature and of Nature's God. They've put 196 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:49,679 out a philosophical mooring or a marker, if you will, 197 00:13:50,799 --> 00:13:53,200 from which they're going to operate. That is their laws 198 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,799 of nature, things we can understand by reason. And it 199 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,679 turns out these same laws are the laws of Nature's God, 200 00:13:59,759 --> 00:14:03,039 that they were created by a creator God, so kind 201 00:14:03,039 --> 00:14:06,519 of a sense of general revelation. So from the very 202 00:14:06,519 --> 00:14:09,679 beginning there's a sense of reason and revelation working together. 203 00:14:09,759 --> 00:14:11,279 They're not. You know, today we think these things are 204 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,279 odds with each other in the modern sense. Whereas they 205 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:17,960 thought they were they were compatible on the on the fundamentals. 206 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,679 And you see that in that that famous quote you 207 00:14:21,679 --> 00:14:24,840 you gave us there we always truth to youselfident that 208 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,440 all men are created equal. So on the one hand, 209 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,519 that's a statement of what we know. We hold these 210 00:14:30,559 --> 00:14:34,080 truths to be self evident, we can understand that by 211 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,200 our reason. But what we're understanding to be self evident 212 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:41,559 that all men are created equal and they are endowed 213 00:14:41,679 --> 00:14:44,960 by their creator with certain annual rights. So again it's this, 214 00:14:45,039 --> 00:14:48,480 it's this beautiful mixing of these great realms of truth, 215 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:53,759 reason and revelation that we find in Western civilization. That's 216 00:14:53,799 --> 00:14:56,639 central to this whole, this whole document. That's that's the 217 00:14:56,679 --> 00:15:00,639 electricity of it, if you will. And so we have 218 00:15:00,639 --> 00:15:03,720 this sense of they're they're equal in some fundamental way. 219 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,799 And when you think about it, theologically, right, we're all 220 00:15:06,799 --> 00:15:12,960 equal before God, we're equally, we're all equally human. Right 221 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,440 doesn't say about our height or weight or this kind 222 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,240 of thing, but in the fundamental sense, which is why, 223 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,399 by the way, they've now put a marker down in 224 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,960 the declaration that becomes the watchword of the abolitionist movement 225 00:15:25,639 --> 00:15:29,440 and really begins that because this this statement cannot slavery 226 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:31,639 cannot of coexist without with the statement that allment to 227 00:15:31,679 --> 00:15:35,320 create equal indeed, and then it goes from there. So 228 00:15:35,399 --> 00:15:38,000 there they are equal, they're endowed by their creator with 229 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,960 certain to animal rights. Among these are life liberty in 230 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,639 the pursuit of happiness, a term which I spend a 231 00:15:43,679 --> 00:15:47,120 lot of time on as well, in terms of what 232 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,080 what are those words mean? Life liberty in the true 233 00:15:49,159 --> 00:15:53,360 of happiness? You know, we again we have we we 234 00:15:53,519 --> 00:15:56,600 often read these things quickly and in the modern view 235 00:15:56,639 --> 00:16:00,799 as well, it's it's kind of whatever you want your happiness, 236 00:16:01,799 --> 00:16:05,360 what what makes you feel good. But I think that 237 00:16:05,519 --> 00:16:10,960 all the evidences is contrary to that completely, especially if 238 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:15,159 you think of this broader historical context I alluded to earlier. 239 00:16:15,759 --> 00:16:20,600 They're deeply shaped by kind of the classical in Christian 240 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:24,919 atritions of the West. You know, you can now read 241 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,519 you it's life, It's it's the thing you have been created, 242 00:16:28,799 --> 00:16:34,240 your life, your liberty. What we do normally is human beings. 243 00:16:34,279 --> 00:16:38,200 We we we act, we do things, we make choices, 244 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,000 we choose things. As that covers a lot of a 245 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,919 lot of ground, doesn't mean licentiousness. The founders were always 246 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,360 very clear on that one. They choose. They chose the 247 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,720 word liberty, which is the old Roman word, which meant 248 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:58,240 that that freedom appropriate for a citizen, for a civilized 249 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,879 man right, and then the pursuit of happiness. I mean, look, 250 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:07,640 happiness is the end of all classical political thought absorbed 251 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:13,680 into the whole Christian tradition, and it clearly meant something 252 00:17:13,759 --> 00:17:19,079 more substantive than your feelings. It leaves room there to 253 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:23,200 pursue your happiness. That's your right, but it doesn't suggest 254 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,640 it's anything and everything. It's somehow, it's pursuing those things 255 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,599 that make you truly happy in the human sense, a 256 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,440 human flourishing. So again, I think it's all wrapped up 257 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,079 together in a way that points towards something not just 258 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:42,480 anything you want, and in again putting in a broader sense, 259 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:45,240 this is why the pursuit of happiness is also the 260 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:51,119 root of religious liberty, because ultimately, to pursue happiness fully, 261 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:55,640 to be fully flourishing human being, by their argument, meant 262 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,640 that you had to have the freedom to pursue not 263 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,920 as state or government matter, but of your own a 264 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:10,039 relationship with God and practice freely your religious beliefs. So again, 265 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:15,599 I think it's an extremely rich document that really goes 266 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,519 beyond how how we today, especially the modern academy and 267 00:18:19,559 --> 00:18:28,640 the modern media popularizations. You'll read the document pay it off, 268 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:30,160 Pay it off now. 269 00:18:30,319 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 3: The watch Doot on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. 270 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,039 Every day Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and 271 00:18:36,079 --> 00:18:38,319 the economy and how it affects your wallet. If you 272 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:41,279 have thousands of dollars of credit card debt, you cannot 273 00:18:41,279 --> 00:18:44,039 start investing until you pay it off. There is no 274 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,640 financial advisor that is cheaper than your credit cards interest rate. 275 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:49,960 With all that debt, whether it's happening in DC or 276 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:51,920 down on Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. 277 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:52,519 Speaker 2: Be informed. 278 00:18:52,599 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 3: Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris 279 00:18:54,759 --> 00:18:57,799 Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. 280 00:19:00,839 --> 00:19:04,319 Speaker 1: Our guest today is Matthew Spalding, vice president of Washington 281 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,759 Operations and Dean of the Van Andel Graduate School of 282 00:19:07,799 --> 00:19:12,279 Government at Hillsdale College. Matthew is author of the new 283 00:19:12,319 --> 00:19:15,519 book The Making of the American Mind, The Story of 284 00:19:15,559 --> 00:19:22,240 our Declaration of Independence. You know, it's interesting to think about, 285 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,880 as as you mentioned before, the Mind of the American 286 00:19:27,279 --> 00:19:29,880 what all went into that from the founders, from this 287 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,599 Declaration of Independence, and how much you said, as you noted, 288 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,880 the abolition movement relied on the declaration. In fact, it 289 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:41,599 was it was Abraham Lincoln who you really talked about 290 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:46,319 these first principles before we even get to the Constitution, 291 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:50,119 and obviously the Declaration of Independence. Those first principles are 292 00:19:50,759 --> 00:19:55,960 woven into this exceptional Constitution that was written several years later. 293 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:02,359 But the American mind, growing up and moving forward in 294 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:07,440 the expansion of the United States of America, became obviously 295 00:20:07,559 --> 00:20:10,960 very fixated on this in the eighteen forties and fifties, 296 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:15,359 which gave rise, of course, to the most destructive time 297 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:22,160 in this republic. How much of those early writings shaped 298 00:20:23,279 --> 00:20:28,000 that conversation throughout the intervening years. 299 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 2: Oh, it was overwhelming. I mean, part of it is 300 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:37,880 think again about what this document does. I emphasized that 301 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,680 it was written by the Continental Congress. Conital Congress first 302 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,039 meets in seventeen seventy four. The issue of this document 303 00:20:44,039 --> 00:20:48,160 in seventeen seventy six, which declares independence but also launches 304 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:53,440 a new nation. This actually is a constitutional document. It's 305 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,599 not the US Constitution, which comes eleven years later, but 306 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:01,680 it is part of that. Indeed, the Declaration Independence is 307 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:06,279 considered in the US Code an organic, organic document of 308 00:21:06,319 --> 00:21:10,680 the country. This is the first, you know, key document 309 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,480 that begins to define the American regime who we are. 310 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:20,839 It's intimately connected to the Constitution. Lincoln, once famous al 311 00:21:20,839 --> 00:21:26,680 also famously said that the Constitution is a frame of silver. Yes, 312 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,960 in tended to frame the apple of gold, which is 313 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:36,480 the Declaration. The founders Lincoln, Frederick Douglass, Martin, Luther King, 314 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,640 you name all the kind of the these minds over 315 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:46,640 time understood that the Declaration ultimately was the intellectual and 316 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:51,640 moral heart of all of American constitutionalism. It's when we 317 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,119 lose that connection that we get into problems. And you 318 00:21:55,160 --> 00:22:00,359 see that, by the way, major every major presidential dress 319 00:22:01,599 --> 00:22:05,519 from the very beginning through Jefferson in eighteen hundred, Lincoln 320 00:22:05,559 --> 00:22:09,759 eighteen sixty, FDR in nineteen thirty two, Barack Obama, I mean, 321 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:15,920 Donald Trump, Ronald Reagan, very famously, they're always looking back 322 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,720 to the Declaration. Why because that's the defining document, the costume. 323 00:22:20,799 --> 00:22:22,920 We love the Constitution, it's a great document. It is 324 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,480 the framework of everything, all of our liberty. But the 325 00:22:26,519 --> 00:22:30,359 thing that it's the heartbeat of America is the Declaration. 326 00:22:30,519 --> 00:22:33,240 So what do we fight over? What does a quality mean? 327 00:22:33,279 --> 00:22:35,160 What do these ideas mean? What does it mean to 328 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,839 be dedicated to these truths. And I believe that's still 329 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:47,640 the electric cord in our politics today. We still debate 330 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,480 these things. This is still a live question, as it 331 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:49,880 should be. 332 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,799 Speaker 1: It is interesting as well that one of the gentlemen 333 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,039 who helped write the Declaration of Independence and edit it 334 00:22:59,079 --> 00:23:02,359 was the guy who arnessed electricity, so he knew a 335 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:07,480 thing or two about making things electric if you will. 336 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, but also just generate, you know. 337 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,799 We see it in their architecture and their pen names 338 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:20,279 and what stories they wrote. They were thinking big. They 339 00:23:20,319 --> 00:23:24,519 had in mind here being a great nation that would 340 00:23:24,519 --> 00:23:31,319 evoke Athens in Rome and London. A great nation, which 341 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,559 meant it was dedicated to a great idea great set 342 00:23:34,599 --> 00:23:37,759 of principles, a particular it's a particular nation and particular people, 343 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,880 but it has this other thing about it which makes 344 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,839 it something different, something special or exceptional, as we say. 345 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,160 And I think that's the thing we need to recapture 346 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,839 and come to understand, perhaps understand it for the first 347 00:23:52,839 --> 00:23:54,799 time for many of us that have never been taught 348 00:23:54,839 --> 00:23:58,200 this or understood it, or read it, or know this history. 349 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:03,720 And it makes him America worth loving and worth being 350 00:24:03,799 --> 00:24:06,839 the object of our patriotic support. 351 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,759 Speaker 1: Well, that is that is a good point, no doubt 352 00:24:10,759 --> 00:24:12,559 about it. That is a good point. And that's what 353 00:24:12,559 --> 00:24:14,640 I want to ask you as we move forward, the 354 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:20,839 American mind moving forward. So many things go into the 355 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,240 making of that American mind, the vision of what America is. 356 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,440 So where did we get to a point in this 357 00:24:28,559 --> 00:24:34,079 country today where we have so many Americans hating America. 358 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,119 As you know, these are extremely divided times. It's not 359 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:43,519 like we didn't have arguments in the past, but it's 360 00:24:43,599 --> 00:24:47,279 something else today. It seems no, you're right. 361 00:24:47,279 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 2: And this is words why I why I wrote this book, 362 00:24:51,039 --> 00:24:54,559 is to go back to that old this old declarations 363 00:24:54,559 --> 00:24:57,119 we might say, and try to relearn the argument again. 364 00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,920 I think the Declaration actually is the thing that you 365 00:25:00,039 --> 00:25:04,240 unifies us and holds us together. And I think that's 366 00:25:04,279 --> 00:25:08,799 still the true for the vast majority who still think 367 00:25:08,839 --> 00:25:11,960 this is a good, good and great country. It's not perfect, 368 00:25:12,319 --> 00:25:16,559 it's had to share mistakes. We're imperfect people, but it's 369 00:25:16,559 --> 00:25:19,960 still worth defending because of what it aspires to do, 370 00:25:20,039 --> 00:25:22,960 because it's principles, and those principles, the principles and the Declaration. 371 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,400 Now there's a deep problem and it's getting of late. 372 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,079 It's gotten I think, more difficult, I fear, but it 373 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,880 really does grow out of the early progressive movement after 374 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,440 the Civil War, early twentieth century, when there's a much 375 00:25:38,519 --> 00:25:42,480 larger debate in America over the meaning of things like truth, 376 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:48,000 self evident truths. Can we know things? Are the things 377 00:25:48,039 --> 00:25:51,279 we can know that transcend history? Are they merely bound 378 00:25:51,319 --> 00:25:54,960 by history? These intellectual debates that then, over the course 379 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:59,880 of the twentieth century, shape how we understand ourselves are 380 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:04,400 our politics. How many colleges in the academic world, you know, 381 00:26:04,519 --> 00:26:08,960 teaches students that had an important a shaping effect on 382 00:26:09,519 --> 00:26:14,359 how we understand these particular ideas. I think the problem 383 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,480 of late, which I especially worry about, is, in more 384 00:26:18,559 --> 00:26:23,119 recent decades on the left and more recently on the right, 385 00:26:24,319 --> 00:26:30,160 the effect of that growing sense of relativism that you 386 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,720 get out of progressivism, which is say that there really 387 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,440 are no permit truths, There are really truths relative to 388 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,039 their time in place, and these are nice, you know, 389 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,519 eight instant ideas, but we've grown out of them. The 390 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,599 effect of that is is to encourage some to throw 391 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,400 them out completely, to think of themselves not only as 392 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,759 no longer liberal, no longer progressive, but you know, post modern, 393 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,920 and everything is deconstructed and torn down, and we see 394 00:27:00,039 --> 00:27:02,839 had very relevant on one side of the aisle, and 395 00:27:02,839 --> 00:27:06,279 then I fear that that is kind of starting to 396 00:27:06,319 --> 00:27:09,920 rub off on some others as well, who see Americas 397 00:27:10,079 --> 00:27:13,079 maybe haven't been that wasn't that great in the first place, 398 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,240 and it's caused a lot of our own problems, and 399 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,200 maybe it's not that special. And I think that's kind 400 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,680 of the same effect. There's kind of a post monitors 401 00:27:21,759 --> 00:27:24,759 on the right as well that wants us to get 402 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:29,880 past America and move on. And that all worries me 403 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,359 quite a bit, because the claim of the Founding and 404 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,559 the Declaration in particular is not that these were true. 405 00:27:36,599 --> 00:27:39,279 These things were true in seventeen seventy six or Lincoln, 406 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,319 and they were true in eighteen sixty. But the argument 407 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,200 here is that there are certain things the mind can 408 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,559 know and they are true simply about man, about politics, 409 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,400 about how we should organize the fundamentals of our regime 410 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,200 and our constitution, and that's a bedrock, and if that's 411 00:27:55,279 --> 00:27:58,960 not true, we throw the whole thing out. And at 412 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,920 that point it really is just, you know, all aienst 413 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,960 All and we're off to the races, and I don't 414 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,400 see what the ballast is for our politics. So yes, 415 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,279 I think we're turning to the Declaration. We're turning to it, 416 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,640 recapturing it, rediscovering it, falling in love with it again. 417 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,240 You know, Augustine said, you can't love something if you 418 00:28:19,279 --> 00:28:22,640 don't know it. So we need to know these things. 419 00:28:23,839 --> 00:28:26,039 That really is, I think, actually the solution to our 420 00:28:26,039 --> 00:28:30,359 current political dilemmas. And in twenty twenty six, the anniversary 421 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,440 of the Declaration, that this is the time to do it, 422 00:28:33,599 --> 00:28:35,920 which is why I've written this book, but also encourage 423 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:40,960 these kinds of conversations about this crucial and also beautiful 424 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:42,039 and noble document. 425 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: Leftists in this country have long said that the Constitution 426 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:54,920 is a living, breathing document. I don't agree with them 427 00:28:55,119 --> 00:28:58,960 on that point, certainly not the way they mean it 428 00:28:59,039 --> 00:29:02,160 to be. So let me ask you, this is the 429 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:07,640 Declaration a living breathing document in the way the left 430 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:09,799 tries to frame the Golden Apple. 431 00:29:11,799 --> 00:29:13,759 Speaker 2: That's a great question as well. I I I agree 432 00:29:13,839 --> 00:29:16,319 with what you shut up there that the the last 433 00:29:16,359 --> 00:29:18,359 side of the costume is a living document. Because they 434 00:29:18,359 --> 00:29:21,000 want to get around. It's it's rules and it's framework, 435 00:29:21,039 --> 00:29:24,599 so they can do whatever they want. There are some 436 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,519 there's some adaption in the in the constitution. Right, it's not. 437 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,160 It's not meant to be so rigid you can't do anything. 438 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,039 But the only reason it can be that is if 439 00:29:34,039 --> 00:29:40,240 the declaration is is unchanging. The argument of the declaration 440 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,160 is not merely an argument for this nation or this 441 00:29:45,319 --> 00:29:49,400 time or this particular moment. It's a claim that the 442 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,319 human mind can know certain things to be true. Simply, 443 00:29:53,559 --> 00:29:56,640 either all men are created equal, and let's let's make 444 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,519 it simpler for those that don't bye by the claim 445 00:30:00,519 --> 00:30:05,440 of a creator, all men are equal, equal in sumstance 446 00:30:05,519 --> 00:30:08,400 of equally being human, which is say, some aren't born 447 00:30:09,559 --> 00:30:12,519 booted to right others and the others aren't born with 448 00:30:12,519 --> 00:30:15,759 saddles on their back. Either that is true or it's 449 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:20,000 not true. That's not a living, evolving concept. It's either 450 00:30:20,079 --> 00:30:23,880 right or wrong. And you can't have a politics of 451 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,440 a constitutional government which allows for the give and take 452 00:30:27,559 --> 00:30:33,920 of liberal and conservative, left and right disagreement laws majorities. 453 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,119 You can't have that give and take in your constitution 454 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,640 if there's not an underlying thing we do agree on 455 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,480 which is that no matter how much we disagree with 456 00:30:42,519 --> 00:30:45,759 each other, we are all equally human, and none is 457 00:30:45,799 --> 00:30:49,119 to be persecuted, none is to be discriminated against. All 458 00:30:49,119 --> 00:30:52,599 have rights, are no one has rights? Well, I'm on 459 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,400 the side that all have rights, and that's where the 460 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,200 founders were, and they're right about that, and that really 461 00:30:59,279 --> 00:31:02,519 is the culmination the whole Western tradition up to this moment, 462 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,759 which is captured beautifully here by Jefferson in this document, 463 00:31:07,559 --> 00:31:09,839 which is an expression of the American mind. I think 464 00:31:09,839 --> 00:31:14,079 it still is fewer, you know, perhaps fewer understand that, 465 00:31:14,319 --> 00:31:18,359 perhaps if you were believe that they've been kind of malformed, 466 00:31:18,359 --> 00:31:21,559 if you will, by progressive education and other things that 467 00:31:21,559 --> 00:31:24,359 have kind of forced them to kind of be clouded 468 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,160 in their perceptions. But I think if you really start 469 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:33,319 thinking it through and recovering that and teaching that, I mean, look, look, 470 00:31:33,519 --> 00:31:37,000 the old liberals, the old liberal argument, even though we 471 00:31:37,079 --> 00:31:39,680 might disagree on the politics of it and the policies 472 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:44,240 and whatnot, would completely agree with this argument. Right. We 473 00:31:44,279 --> 00:31:48,680 have a we have our disagreements politically, and they are 474 00:31:49,319 --> 00:31:52,440 we fight them out in the context of the constitution, 475 00:31:53,079 --> 00:31:55,480 the checks and balances of a legislature and executive in 476 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,240 a Supreme court. But underlying that are these fundamental truths. 477 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,519 That is the argument the of the left for a 478 00:32:03,559 --> 00:32:08,720 long time until rather recently, and here we are trying 479 00:32:08,759 --> 00:32:14,839 to desperately conserve it as best we can, and that's 480 00:32:14,839 --> 00:32:16,279 what I'm trying to do. I think the best way 481 00:32:16,279 --> 00:32:19,720 to do it actually is to recapture the excitement of 482 00:32:19,759 --> 00:32:23,920 the story itself, because you really can't not learn that 483 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,440 if you don't, if you read the story and understand 484 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,039 what they're doing and try to grasp what they were 485 00:32:30,039 --> 00:32:34,240 intending in documents like this one. 486 00:32:34,839 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: You talked about it before. I want to expound upon 487 00:32:37,279 --> 00:32:40,519 it just a bit. There is a famous quote that 488 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,839 is falsely attributed to Abraham Lincoln, and it is this, 489 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:49,440 America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we 490 00:32:49,559 --> 00:32:52,759 falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we 491 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:58,359 destroyed ourselves. Do you believe that? Do you believe that 492 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:03,200 is happening now? In you do? Is it because too 493 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,599 many of us have not looked to the Declaration of 494 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,079 Independence as that American mind got? 495 00:33:09,119 --> 00:33:12,079 Speaker 2: Yeah? So yeah, Lincoln did. He said something like that 496 00:33:12,119 --> 00:33:15,160 in one of his early speeches, and I think I 497 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,880 think in general I think he was correct. I think, 498 00:33:18,039 --> 00:33:21,079 but what he meant by that is important. So his 499 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,319 perception rightly at the time, this was the kind of 500 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,799 you know, mid nineteenth centuries, we were in a way 501 00:33:26,799 --> 00:33:28,920 to becoming a great nation, and we were going to 502 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,759 be great and powerful, and no European country could come 503 00:33:32,759 --> 00:33:36,440 over and destroy us. And he was he was young 504 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,559 at the time and kind of overset itself. But generally speaking, 505 00:33:39,599 --> 00:33:43,759 I think he was right. But what he meant, what 506 00:33:43,799 --> 00:33:47,400 he pointed out, though, is that we will destroy a republic, 507 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,359 which says a country that rules itself, that is self governed, 508 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,599 it will lose its freedom. It's more likely it will 509 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,079 be not because we are defeated in war. It'll be 510 00:33:59,079 --> 00:34:01,400 because we defeat ourselves in the sense that we do 511 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:06,200 we forget our duties in what is necessary to maintain 512 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,239 to maintain self government, which has to do with we 513 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:15,280 talk about civic education and being prepared to take on 514 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,320 the responsibility of the citizenhip, whether it's being a jury 515 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:23,400 or fighting in the army, to uphold our liberties, to 516 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,880 be watchful for our liberties, to protect our free speech 517 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:30,239 and other things. But again, underneath all of that has 518 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:35,719 to be a citizens understanding of the importance of the 519 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:41,719 Constitution and maintaining its rules and its framework, not wantonly 520 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,159 ignoring the rule of law. But behind all of that, 521 00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:49,519 underneath all of that, has to be the agreement, the 522 00:34:49,519 --> 00:34:54,920 fundamental agreement of the Declaration, which is not merely ours, 523 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,320 although it happens to be American, and I praise it 524 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,159 as such, and it should be the the apple, the 525 00:35:01,199 --> 00:35:06,039 crown jewel of the American experiment, but it's a it's 526 00:35:06,079 --> 00:35:08,079 a it's an argument that that that is the nature. 527 00:35:08,119 --> 00:35:10,519 You can't have a republican government. The very meaning of 528 00:35:10,519 --> 00:35:17,239 republican government is that all citizens are equal, says whom, Well, 529 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,360 you've got to have some ground upon which to say that, 530 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,679 and their ground is well, both we know that, both 531 00:35:21,679 --> 00:35:27,039 by reason classical and and and the whole rational tradition, 532 00:35:27,119 --> 00:35:30,039 going back to the Greeks and Romans and the Christian tradition. 533 00:35:30,079 --> 00:35:33,239 We're equal before God. And it's pretty hard to beat 534 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,199 that argument. And if we lose that, then we really 535 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,400 lose lose the whole ground upon which we can justify 536 00:35:40,599 --> 00:35:44,840 our constitutional government. So so I think he's right. If 537 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,159 we are to die, if the republic is to collapse. 538 00:35:48,199 --> 00:35:53,679 It's going to collasp because we no longer uphold the 539 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,679 fundamental things necessary to remaine self governing, which goes back 540 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,159 to us understanding how we look at each other in 541 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,440 some funded way that is unchanging. 542 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,639 Speaker 1: Perhaps it's a tired question. I don't care. I never 543 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:12,400 tire of it. And I like to ask any historian, 544 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:18,920 every historian I meet in American history and of the 545 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,679 American mind, in the conversation that we're having, what do 546 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:29,719 you think the writers, the believers in this declaration, what 547 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,960 do you think they would say about the America today, 548 00:36:33,039 --> 00:36:35,719 the Jeffersons, the Adams, the hands. 549 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 2: I've actually thought about that question many times, because it's 550 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,599 a great question. You know, so much time has passed. 551 00:36:44,599 --> 00:36:46,880 It's kind of it makes it harder. It's always harder. 552 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,480 These specultive questions are always difficult. But I think a 553 00:36:50,519 --> 00:36:53,119 couple of things that very at least one is I 554 00:36:53,159 --> 00:36:58,760 think they would be flabberg acid, overwhelmed, and joyously happy 555 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,320 to see with this great nation and has become. And 556 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,119 if you look at over time, what is accomplished both 557 00:37:06,159 --> 00:37:10,719 here and abroad in the world and in economics and 558 00:37:11,119 --> 00:37:14,159 defending freedom around the globe, all of those things. I 559 00:37:14,199 --> 00:37:20,239 think they would be wonderfully. They would just see that 560 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,519 as a great thing, because really at the time they 561 00:37:23,559 --> 00:37:27,079 weren't sure this is going to work. At the same time, 562 00:37:27,159 --> 00:37:31,000 I think they would be deeply concerned and they would 563 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,519 go this you can see in their letters because they 564 00:37:33,519 --> 00:37:35,280 taught they actually are talking about this a lot, and 565 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:39,920 we're we're at the time is that. Look, we've given 566 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,239 you this republic. We've set it up very nicely. This 567 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,639 you've got a great constitution, we've grounded in the principles 568 00:37:45,639 --> 00:37:49,239 of the Declaration. It's up to you. You've made a 569 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,719 lot of mistakes, You've gone down a lot of rabbit holes. 570 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:58,320 You've had some larger problems like slavery that had to 571 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:03,760 be dealt with and were dealt with very nobly. And 572 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,440 now you're at a point where, yes, you've accomplished these 573 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,719 great things. You're in the cusp of continuing reviving that greatness. 574 00:38:10,599 --> 00:38:15,599 But don't fool yourselves. You can't recover greatness unless you 575 00:38:15,679 --> 00:38:21,480 have a grounding for that greatness. And you'll beware, I 576 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:26,199 think they would say, beware the the the temptations of 577 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,840 the politics of old, whether they are are you know 578 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,360 of Napoleon or Caesar, or what it might be, that 579 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:37,960 that it's just merely a matter of power. Greatness is 580 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,360 really the preservation of republican forms of government. That's what 581 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:46,199 the Americans means, which means upholding the Constitution of the Declaration. 582 00:38:46,599 --> 00:38:49,280 And they would be worried about that given the state, 583 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:53,239 or civic education, the expansion of the modern state, and 584 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:57,360 the administrative state, all the things which you know, we're 585 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,719 both very familiar with that are plaguing us. So I 586 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,440 can be a mix of both a deep concern but 587 00:39:05,559 --> 00:39:10,400 also a great joyous reflection of what we've accomplished in 588 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:14,800 our past, but a hopefulness that we a good people 589 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:23,519 focus on the right things and with confidence, with a 590 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,239 not a great confidence in human nature, it's driven, it's 591 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,199 drawn to its passions, but also a confidence and the 592 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,239 human ability to govern themselves. I think they would be 593 00:39:31,519 --> 00:39:35,079 they would look forward to America's future. 594 00:39:36,119 --> 00:39:40,079 Speaker 1: Final question for you about America's future tied to America's past. 595 00:39:40,679 --> 00:39:44,880 You mentioned at the outset of our conversation that Thomas Jefferson, 596 00:39:45,159 --> 00:39:50,719 in a letter in eighteen twenty five, had talked about 597 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,960 what you know, what he was after when he started 598 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:59,639 this whole experiment along with his colleagues at the time. 599 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:04,320 And you mentioned the fact that that's where he really 600 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,960 talks about the American mind. Did that Did he write 601 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:13,440 that letter to John Adams? I ask you that because 602 00:40:14,199 --> 00:40:18,320 if I when I think about America and the American mind, 603 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:23,880 I think about those two minds in particular, because they 604 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:30,159 were in so many ways so similar yet so different, 605 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,159 and their politics and their policies reflected that, in fact, 606 00:40:34,639 --> 00:40:38,119 they were so caught up in their differences that they 607 00:40:38,159 --> 00:40:41,039 were alienated for years, and then all of a sudden. 608 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:42,440 Speaker 2: There is. 609 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:49,199 Speaker 1: A reapproachment there. You know, there is a new connection there, 610 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:53,760 and they remember as old friends and fighters what it 611 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,320 was all about, and they're very cordial, and they have 612 00:40:56,639 --> 00:40:57,800 a letter writing campaign. 613 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,719 Speaker 2: Right, No, that's absolutely right. In the the later corresponds 614 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,480 between Jefferson Adams is one of the greatest in American letters. 615 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:11,119 The letter in particular was written to Henry Adams. But 616 00:41:11,159 --> 00:41:13,159 I mean said that you capture I think, I think 617 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,519 exactly what is going on here, which is you know 618 00:41:17,159 --> 00:41:19,920 you got you mentioned Adams and Jefferson. The other of 619 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:24,159 course do hold I think of is is Adams and 620 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,840 Hamilton who become great fighters against each other in the 621 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,079 in the first Washington administration, and you can imagine them, 622 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,599 you know, having it. And they actually did famously have 623 00:41:33,639 --> 00:41:36,599 a dinner together, and they disagreed and argue about everything. 624 00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:38,159 And I'm sure they even argue about what to eat, 625 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,400 what wine to drink. Everything there's you know, in many ways, 626 00:41:41,679 --> 00:41:46,880 deeply disliked each other. And yet all of these figures, Adams, Jefferson, Hamilton, 627 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,519 Henry Adams, you know, all these figures, all that they 628 00:41:51,599 --> 00:41:54,719 disagreed fundamentally in all these different policies, where to go, 629 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:59,039 what's to do foreign policy, but they agreed on the fundamentals. 630 00:42:00,119 --> 00:42:04,440 And so what happens is that the Condital Congress is 631 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:06,719 in the second in the Declarations, one of those moments 632 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,760 where it all comes together at the right moment, and 633 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:15,719 the declaration is written. It's captured beautifully by Jefferson, it's 634 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,119 edited into a much even much better document by people 635 00:42:19,199 --> 00:42:22,280 like Adams and Franklin in the continual Congress, and it 636 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:26,000 becomes this great statement expression in the American mind. The 637 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:30,679 American mind fights about different things, flutters around, disagrees on policies, 638 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,079 but then it comes back again under Lincoln. Right, no, no, 639 00:42:35,159 --> 00:42:38,360 let's go back to the fundamentals. All men are create equal, right. 640 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,719 It's when we we have disagreements, we don't mean to 641 00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:43,599 get rid of it. Disagreement will always be that, that 642 00:42:43,679 --> 00:42:47,280 is the nature of politics. But every time there are 643 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,960 deep fundamental disagreements and it seems to be getting worse. 644 00:42:51,639 --> 00:42:53,920 What have we done in the past, and what do 645 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,239 we need to do now? We go back to the fundamentals, 646 00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:00,280 the first principles of our politics, because that's something where 647 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:05,280 there is deep, deep agreement that really can be denied, 648 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,880 but it needs to be clarified because we don't necessarily 649 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,039 go back there all the time. I think this is 650 00:43:12,079 --> 00:43:16,280 one of those moments. I think that this is a 651 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:18,360 time to relearn those things. I think we have a 652 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:22,760 unique opportunity in twenty twenty six to rediscover them, perhaps 653 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:24,559 for the first time. If you've not been taught this, 654 00:43:24,679 --> 00:43:28,599 go out, get books, read books, teach yourself these ideas. 655 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:30,559 We need to understand what it means to be a citizen. 656 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:36,159 We learn the fundamentals, and I would challenge anyone that 657 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:40,039 does that to not see in the actions of seventeen 658 00:43:40,079 --> 00:43:43,599 seventy six, both in terms of the creation of this document, 659 00:43:43,639 --> 00:43:46,000 but also what they then did in their own lives 660 00:43:46,039 --> 00:43:49,639 and with their own fortunes to not see a great 661 00:43:49,679 --> 00:43:54,599 and noble story about great and good INDs that really 662 00:43:54,639 --> 00:43:58,119 directs towards things that transcend our immediate times in our 663 00:43:58,199 --> 00:44:03,400 lives to higher things, even eternal things that really do 664 00:44:03,599 --> 00:44:06,440 remind us about what is most important in our lives, 665 00:44:07,039 --> 00:44:10,840 in our politics, but our lives more generally. And that's 666 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,480 I think what we need right now and what would 667 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,960 regenerate and revive American greatness. 668 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:23,519 Speaker 1: Well, in this season of bless blessings and miracles, remembering 669 00:44:23,639 --> 00:44:28,519 those blessings and miracles, I hope that we all never 670 00:44:28,599 --> 00:44:32,599 forget what a miracle and in my humble opinion, what 671 00:44:32,679 --> 00:44:38,960 a God given gift it was, this Declaration of Independence, 672 00:44:39,599 --> 00:44:42,360 the people who wrote it and the people who fought 673 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,400 for it. Thanks to my guest today, Matthew Spaulding, Vice 674 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,800 President of Washington Operations and Dean of the Van Handel 675 00:44:49,119 --> 00:44:53,159 Graduate School of Government at Hillsdale College. Matthew is author 676 00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,400 of the new book The Making of the American Mind, 677 00:44:56,559 --> 00:45:00,719 The Story of our Declaration of Independence. To another edition 678 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,880 of The Federalist Radio Hour, I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections 679 00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,079 correspondent at The Federalist. We'll be back soon with more. 680 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:29,239 Until then, stay lovers of freedom and anxious for the fray.