WEBVTT 1 00:00:09.640 --> 00:00:12.759 Hello everyone, Welcome back to continue and brought to you 2 00:00:12.839 --> 00:00:15.919 by Europe Media. I'm Keith Woods. I'm here at my 3 00:00:16.359 --> 00:00:19.359 steam course Ryan. Today we're going to be discussing Carol 4 00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:23.679 Popper and the Upper Society ran This was your idea 5 00:00:23.760 --> 00:00:27.039 to cover this as a topic. What was it that 6 00:00:27.079 --> 00:00:30.160 put you on to Carol Popper as a thinker worked 7 00:00:30.320 --> 00:00:35.880 talking about Well, it was Keith Woods. Really, Carl Proper, 8 00:00:35.920 --> 00:00:38.000 I didn't know you really said that. No, no, To be. 9 00:00:37.960 --> 00:00:40.679 Fair to you, you sort of said that Popper was 10 00:00:40.759 --> 00:00:44.520 not spoken about nearly enough within the scene. You know, 11 00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:49.960 a lot of people were describing the processes since you know, 12 00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:54.880 the interwar period and post World War two as cultural Marxism, 13 00:00:55.000 --> 00:00:58.359 very vague things like that that really missed the detail 14 00:00:58.799 --> 00:01:04.159 of how modern democracy is defined and been enshrined legally. 15 00:01:05.599 --> 00:01:08.280 And you did a couple of excellent threads on on 16 00:01:08.359 --> 00:01:15.719 Twitter sort of detailing Popper's influence. So yeah, I've I 17 00:01:15.879 --> 00:01:21.120 since read The Open Society and Its Enemies. Obviously, I 18 00:01:21.159 --> 00:01:26.519 was very aware of George Solas's Open Society Foundation and 19 00:01:26.599 --> 00:01:31.000 the kind of activism slash destruction they have brought on 20 00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:36.319 various Western countries. So I was intrigued to read it, 21 00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:41.959 and I think it's definitely worth discussing in depth. 22 00:01:43.079 --> 00:01:44.840 Yeah, I have. I don't know if I can take 23 00:01:44.840 --> 00:01:47.120 credit for it, but I have noticed some people on 24 00:01:47.159 --> 00:01:49.480 our side talking more about the idea of the open 25 00:01:49.560 --> 00:01:53.359 society and liberal pluralism and kind of trying to get 26 00:01:53.400 --> 00:01:57.439 to the roots of the postwar consensus rather than Yeah, 27 00:01:57.480 --> 00:01:59.519 I think a few years ago it was very like, 28 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:02.879 you know, this theory of Marxist subversion. It was all 29 00:02:02.959 --> 00:02:09.159 Gramsky and intellectuals that snuck into the institutions, and sometimes 30 00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:11.879 there was a reluctance, i think, especially from people coming 31 00:02:11.919 --> 00:02:17.280 from a conservative background, to look at the deeper foundations 32 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:22.280 within liberal thought thinkers that are considered more moderate or 33 00:02:22.319 --> 00:02:25.240 part of the liberal tradition. But then when you look 34 00:02:25.280 --> 00:02:26.840 at them, you know, you do find that there's this 35 00:02:26.960 --> 00:02:30.080 extremely strong current that isn't just confined to the left 36 00:02:30.599 --> 00:02:33.759 after the post war, that is essentially built on this 37 00:02:33.800 --> 00:02:38.360 foundation of never again. Right, That's that's what Paper rebuilt 38 00:02:38.439 --> 00:02:40.919 his own his own theory on. But yeah, it's the 39 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:46.439 shock of the Second World War, the shock of you know, 40 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:52.560 the the idea of of racial science and totalitarianism and genocide. 41 00:02:52.599 --> 00:02:55.599 On this mass scale. And we discussed this a little 42 00:02:55.599 --> 00:02:59.439 bit in the in the Wokeness episode, But there we 43 00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:04.240 were talking about strains of new left thodd Popper doesn't 44 00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:07.800 really fall into that, you know, and some people sometimes 45 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:11.080 he's cited as kind of a conservative or libertarian thinker. 46 00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:15.120 Libertarians are quite friendly to his thought. But yes, you 47 00:03:15.159 --> 00:03:18.000 do find a lot of the problems we encounter now 48 00:03:18.599 --> 00:03:21.000 when it comes to trying to kind of wrestle back 49 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:25.039 control of our own societies. You find that the whole 50 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:28.840 structure of modern liberal democracy is very tied up with 51 00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:32.479 Poperian ideas. So I think it's worth studying. But yeah, 52 00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:35.960 a lot of his foundational ideas have really become omnipresent, 53 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:46.319 just in the way people talk about things like liberalism, democracy, populism, totalitarianism, 54 00:03:46.879 --> 00:03:50.800 just in the vocabulary of liberalism and what these terms mean. Now, 55 00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:53.840 a lot of it can be traced back to Popper's thought. 56 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:57.360 But let's get into it. I think you can't have 57 00:03:57.400 --> 00:04:01.639 this discussion about Popper without stay Marden with his biography, 58 00:04:01.639 --> 00:04:03.879 because I think his life story is central to this. 59 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:09.319 Yeah, he was born in Vienna at the start of 60 00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:12.520 the twentieth century. He was twelve years old when a 61 00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:16.240 little Serbian boy called Govrilla prince Hip shot the Archduke 62 00:04:16.279 --> 00:04:20.240 of Austro Hungary. Obviously, the you know, the First World 63 00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:23.839 War ensued, one of the bloodiest wars that had ever 64 00:04:23.879 --> 00:04:28.079 been until that time. So at twelve years old, he 65 00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:32.079 was you know, thrown in the deep end of experiencing 66 00:04:32.160 --> 00:04:36.759 a brutal tribal warfare. Vienna is a very strange place. 67 00:04:37.120 --> 00:04:41.680 I went there last year and you can just feel 68 00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:47.399 the Empire lives on to this day. It's incredibly aristocratic, 69 00:04:48.759 --> 00:04:53.199 very grand architecture everywhere, but you feel the multi ethnic 70 00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:59.079 character very much, and I mean you hear Serbian, Hungarian, 71 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:04.920 Slovak and all the other new groups that are there now. 72 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:08.720 But it's you know, eventually we'll bring us back around 73 00:05:08.759 --> 00:05:13.519 to Sous. But you know the European University that was 74 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:17.879 started by Sorous's Open Society foundation, it had moved to 75 00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:21.439 Budapest and Hungary and because of the urban government it 76 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:24.319 was basically forest owed and it is in Vienna now, 77 00:05:24.360 --> 00:05:25.279 which is kind of fit in. 78 00:05:25.639 --> 00:05:30.360 Yeah, it has a reputation as an intellectual center. Also, 79 00:05:31.920 --> 00:05:36.000 you know, other intellectuals at the time that were pretty 80 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:42.800 forward thinking from there were Freud and Witgenstein. So you know, 81 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:50.959 modern multi ethnic empire, intellectual thought going on in that 82 00:05:51.079 --> 00:05:57.120 area gets hit by war, and then, you know, as 83 00:05:57.160 --> 00:06:01.240 as Popper's growing up, same thing starts happening when n 84 00:06:01.319 --> 00:06:05.160 s Germany starts rising and he flees to New Zealand 85 00:06:05.480 --> 00:06:10.800 in the late thirties and he publishes The Open Society 86 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:15.639 and Its Enemies in nineteen forty five, so his intellectual 87 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:20.959 defense of liberalism and never Again is published just in 88 00:06:21.040 --> 00:06:26.680 time for new constitutions to be drawn, and you know, 89 00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:29.240 hence its influenced this day. 90 00:06:29.639 --> 00:06:32.800 I'm gonna I'm gonna call you on the Vitgenstein pronunciation. 91 00:06:33.279 --> 00:06:35.879 So it reminds me when I did a podcast with 92 00:06:35.959 --> 00:06:38.879 a guy called Chrispond before in the entire two hours 93 00:06:39.560 --> 00:06:42.839 kept send desks. Its driven me crazy. 94 00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:46.519 And hoped Chris Bond is a legend though I did 95 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:48.800 like him. 96 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:51.519 But because we're friendly enough, I'm just gonna, I'm just 97 00:06:51.560 --> 00:06:52.360 gonna call you there. 98 00:06:53.639 --> 00:06:55.879 He was smiling for the whole time while I was speaking. 99 00:06:58.839 --> 00:07:03.079 Just bring him back some memories. But yeah, I mean, 100 00:07:03.399 --> 00:07:08.279 what's significant about that, though, is the Jewish element. There's 101 00:07:08.360 --> 00:07:12.959 a biographer of Karl Popper called Malachi Hack Cohen, who 102 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:16.319 is himself an Israeli ju I think, I think he's 103 00:07:16.360 --> 00:07:19.399 a Zionist. So these he has this interesting perspective on 104 00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:23.839 Jewish intelligency in the twentieth century. But he wrote this 105 00:07:23.959 --> 00:07:26.079 long biography of Popper and then he has a number 106 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:30.000 of papers on the intellectual influences on him. But one 107 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:33.519 thing he really emphasizes is that you can't understand the 108 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:38.759 work of Popper without understanding it coming from someone who 109 00:07:38.879 --> 00:07:45.040 is living the life of cosmopolitan, urbanite jew who had 110 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:49.199 his social reality really transformed and you know, the foundation 111 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:51.680 has just pulled out from under him, and that he 112 00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:57.000 came from a milieu of Jewish intellectuals and just a 113 00:07:57.040 --> 00:08:00.000 Jewish community in Austria that, as you said, grew up 114 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:09.600 in a multi ethnic, cosmopolitan Habsburg Empire. Nationalism was this 115 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:15.800 dangerous foreign thing, but usually had their place in that society, right. 116 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:19.240 They were kind of culture bearers. There were culture leaders. 117 00:08:19.959 --> 00:08:23.600 Vienna was this cosmopolitan place where they could engage in 118 00:08:23.600 --> 00:08:28.199 intellectual activity and so Ha Cohen says that the idea 119 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:36.519 of the open society is really the universalization of the cosmopolitan, 120 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:41.159 internationalist Jews ideal way of being in terms of creating 121 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:45.200 a universal legalism that protects them and basically trying to 122 00:08:45.240 --> 00:08:49.360 recreate the conditions of the liberal Habsburg empire prior to 123 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:53.919 the rise of nationalism and authoritarianism and fascism and everything 124 00:08:53.960 --> 00:08:58.919 that came with it. And I mean Popper is interesting 125 00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:02.080 in that regard, in that you know, pretty much every 126 00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:05.600 liberal intellectual after the Second World War and kind of 127 00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:07.559 as part of the post war consensus. I mean, this 128 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:09.759 was like the post World War One consensus. You could 129 00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:12.960 say it was like national self determination. Popper is one 130 00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:17.600 intellectual that actually rejects that and just never accepted any 131 00:09:17.639 --> 00:09:23.840 degree of nationalism. Some liberal theorists will have a respect 132 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:30.000 or idealize small nation states, smaller nationalisms. You don't even 133 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:32.720 get that with Popper. He was contemptuous of all of it. 134 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:37.919 And yeah, I mean the story really starts with him 135 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:42.519 living within this cosmopolitan Jewish community in a multi ethnic empire, 136 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:47.039 and suddenly the foundations of that are wiped out. 137 00:09:47.799 --> 00:09:51.759 Yeah, and George Soros the same he was in Hungary, 138 00:09:52.200 --> 00:09:55.320 he suffered a similar kind of fate. He managed to 139 00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:59.399 survive the war and then became a student of Popper 140 00:09:59.679 --> 00:10:03.759 in at the London School of Economics. So what an 141 00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:08.679 impact they've had on the world since their you know, 142 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:12.039 respective experiences not far from each other in Central Europe. 143 00:10:12.080 --> 00:10:14.600 There are so many stories like that that's remarkable. I mean, 144 00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:20.159 i I've out in mind at times to write a 145 00:10:20.200 --> 00:10:21.639 book on this. I mean, you could, if you could 146 00:10:21.679 --> 00:10:26.559 just go through all of the emigres and the intellectual 147 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:28.720 impact they had and the common direction it went in. 148 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:32.480 Ernest Gllner is another one. Ernest Gelner is one of 149 00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:36.399 the most influential sociologists of the twentieth century, some people 150 00:10:36.440 --> 00:10:39.879 might say the most, and his theory of nationalism, his 151 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:44.279 modernist theory of nationalism, was the dominant and probably still 152 00:10:44.360 --> 00:10:47.360 is the dominant theory of nationalism in sociology. You know, 153 00:10:47.399 --> 00:10:51.440 this idea that's a modern construction, creation of the Industrial 154 00:10:51.480 --> 00:10:54.840 Revolution and so on. And he's a very similar story. 155 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:57.279 You know, he grew up in a Jewish family in 156 00:10:57.360 --> 00:11:02.000 Prague again at the time, which was a very cosmopolitan, 157 00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:08.480 more multicultural city, and again they fled because of you know, 158 00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:12.080 tensions with Germany, and eventually, of course not to Germany 159 00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:15.960 invaded Czechoslovakia. But just again a very similar story of 160 00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:22.039 these emigres that grow up in a more cosmopolitan Europe 161 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:26.919 of multi ethnic empires, see the rise of nationalism and fascism, 162 00:11:27.519 --> 00:11:31.440 and have this impetus behind their work from that point 163 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:36.639 on where they go into sociology or philosophy or political 164 00:11:36.679 --> 00:11:42.080 theory and have this strong desire to deconstruct the impulses 165 00:11:42.120 --> 00:11:43.600 that led to those forces. 166 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:47.399 That's quite a good segue because the first philosopher that 167 00:11:48.279 --> 00:11:52.759 Poper addresses in his work is Plato. So some brief 168 00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:59.799 background on Plato. He was an Athenian and he grew 169 00:11:59.879 --> 00:12:06.559 up during the Peloponnesian War between Sparta and Athens. Sparta 170 00:12:06.639 --> 00:12:12.120 eventually won that war. They put in a puppet government 171 00:12:12.279 --> 00:12:18.279 which was ruled by what's called the Thirty Tyrants, of 172 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:22.159 which more than a couple of members were linked to 173 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:29.360 Plato because he had quite an aristocratic background. And Popper 174 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:34.600 for pages and pages, it was several hours I was 175 00:12:34.600 --> 00:12:38.679 listening to the audio book. He just tries to destroy 176 00:12:38.919 --> 00:12:43.120 and defame Plato, who's become a hero of mine, and 177 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:49.639 in the last few years, it really is just a 178 00:12:49.679 --> 00:12:56.440 total defamation. He basically mates out that Plato's work is 179 00:12:56.919 --> 00:13:03.080 covering for his tyrannical you know, family members, that is 180 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:07.799 a complete authoritarian. He kind of draws on the theory 181 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:11.679 of forms and the idea of philosopher Kings as you know, 182 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:17.360 being total like totalitarian in nature. You know, he decries 183 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:25.679 him as a Eugenesist, someone that would enforce a caste 184 00:13:25.679 --> 00:13:32.600 system with no mobility, and and many other attacks. And 185 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:35.879 I when I was listening to it, I just thought 186 00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:41.080 it was so intellectually dishonest. And you know, having read 187 00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:46.000 this book recently, that clarifies certainly that it is a 188 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:49.639 dishonest work. I don't know what you thought of it yourself, 189 00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:51.840 as as you were reading that first section on Plato. 190 00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:56.799 Yeah, it is. It is a surprisingly polemical work. Whether 191 00:13:56.840 --> 00:14:01.120 he's attacking Plaid or letter Hegel. The one he goes 192 00:14:01.159 --> 00:14:03.720 a bit easier on is Maerks actually, but especially with 193 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:07.440 Plato and Hegel, he's pretty he's pretty ruthless. And Harry 194 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:11.120 writes and yeah, as you say, often unjustified. But you know, 195 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:16.919 it's interesting to see that in constructing this liberal political project, 196 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:20.559 he's not just taking aim and Plato for his politics. 197 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:23.720 He's taken aim at the idea of theory of forms 198 00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:29.360 and of metaphysical realism and the idea of constructing metaphysics 199 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:32.679 and having your politics be downstream from that. So he's 200 00:14:32.759 --> 00:14:38.120 challenging the very foundations of classical political philosophy, which were 201 00:14:38.200 --> 00:14:41.440 based in the idea of there being a good life, 202 00:14:41.480 --> 00:14:46.720 there being an end towards which states should aim if 203 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:49.080 there are four people's good and that we can use 204 00:14:49.159 --> 00:14:51.879 reason to discover these collective goods and the purpose of 205 00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:54.519 the state. So Paper wants to reject all of that, 206 00:14:54.559 --> 00:14:57.000 you know, he wants to get to the ultimate foundations 207 00:14:57.279 --> 00:15:03.320 of totalitarian thought, which comes down to people have competing 208 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:06.679 visions of the good life, and as long as that happens, 209 00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:10.080 someone can come and impose their vision on the masses. 210 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:14.240 And so he wants to cut the foundations of that 211 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:18.519 and say that this is off limits for human discourse. 212 00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:23.960 We're supposed to just focus on, you know, rational argumentation 213 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:29.320 about empirical matters, not drift off into this kind of 214 00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:33.879 mystical discussion about realms of forms or you know, objective 215 00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:36.720 moral goods or any of these things. Of course, he 216 00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:41.080 falls into the same problem any relativists do when they're 217 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:43.519 trying to do this, is he's obviously proposing his own 218 00:15:43.639 --> 00:15:48.519 moral scheme while you know, just not justifying it and 219 00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:51.639 saying we should take it as given, which is, you know, 220 00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:54.759 obviously ridiculous. And what is moral system comes down to 221 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:59.399 at Rude is this kind of negative utilitarianism. He says 222 00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:02.440 again and again that the only the only moral guide 223 00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:07.919 is basically reduced and suffering. But yeah, I think it's 224 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:13.000 it's notable that in trying to once and for all 225 00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:17.720 remove totalitarian good and establish liberalism, he has to launch 226 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:20.919 really a full attack on metaphysics. You know, it shows 227 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:25.240 the the negative tendency of liberalism as as kind of 228 00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:28.600 an anti ideology that if you remove meaning, if you 229 00:16:28.679 --> 00:16:34.360 remove search for transcendence or higher purpose, but then what 230 00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:37.759 you're left with is this kind of liberal proceduralism that 231 00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:40.200 people just accepted for utilitarian reasons. 232 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:44.320 I think a trick he makes as well is he 233 00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:51.440 strongly endorses Socrates. I think he's forced into that position 234 00:16:51.559 --> 00:16:55.960 because you know, between Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, they you know, 235 00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:59.559 they are the titans of Western for they are the 236 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:02.720 ones that developed reason. They are the foundation of you know, 237 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:06.480 all of Western civilization. So he has to lean on something, 238 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:10.839 and he he makes this play where he basically says 239 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:14.960 that Socrates is actually the democrat, He's actually the father 240 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:19.319 of the open society. He's debating down in the piaeas 241 00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:23.400 port with you know, the common man, while Plato's in 242 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:31.200 the academy with his elite. But in reality, Socrates was 243 00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:36.519 the tutor of the main players of the tyrants, critias, 244 00:17:39.160 --> 00:17:45.519 comedies is It and Alcibiades, you know, and he was 245 00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:50.079 a soldier himself, you know, very anti democratic in his sport. 246 00:17:50.599 --> 00:17:54.160 And I think there's very good reason to think this 247 00:17:54.279 --> 00:17:57.400 is a whole other topic, but you know the story. 248 00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:02.160 So sometimes people that dislike playto on Socrates, like Nietzschean's 249 00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:05.039 we'll say, well, that was you know, putting Socrates to 250 00:18:05.079 --> 00:18:08.400 death was totally justified because he was this subversive liberal, 251 00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:12.559 pro democratic thinker. It actually seems now like he was 252 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:17.440 most likely put to death if you look past you know, 253 00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:20.240 the spin maybe Plato puts in, he was most likely 254 00:18:20.279 --> 00:18:23.319 to put to death because of that connection to tyranny, 255 00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:25.920 the fact that one of the fact that his students 256 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:27.920 had been involved in the tyranny of the dirty and 257 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:31.640 that it was seen that he was esoterically teaching an 258 00:18:31.640 --> 00:18:36.039 anti democratic message, and that he was justifying that. You know, 259 00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:38.559 there was a after that ended. It was a very 260 00:18:38.599 --> 00:18:42.240 brutal tyrannical period, and there was kind of an amnesty 261 00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:44.680 where there was an agreement to kind of you know, 262 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:48.240 forget about that and cease hostilities to stop Athens turning 263 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:52.200 into complete civil war. But there was a constant distrust 264 00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:56.720 of Socrates from that point on, and I think, you know, 265 00:18:56.759 --> 00:19:01.599 I think his thought coming troop Plato is anti democratic. 266 00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:04.880 It was. I mean, there was obviously there was obviously 267 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:06.240 a basis for that suspicion. 268 00:19:06.759 --> 00:19:10.480 It was all about the amnesty because yeah, they wanted 269 00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:14.559 to end the blood feud effectively, so they put on 270 00:19:14.599 --> 00:19:17.160 trial for corrupting the youth. I mean, it's not much 271 00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:21.000 different from modern day lawfare, is it. But yeah, I 272 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:24.400 mean they had good reason to be anti democratic in 273 00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:29.119 my opinion. I mean Plato saw in his life growing 274 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:35.079 up that I think he said that in ancient Athens, 275 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:41.359 honor replaced wisdom, and money replaced honor, and it became 276 00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:45.799 a rule of the mob. Obviously, the Peloponnesian War was 277 00:19:46.519 --> 00:19:51.920 you know, expensive and chaotic. There were you know, constant 278 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:56.319 there was a constant need to democratize power or whatever, 279 00:19:57.200 --> 00:20:05.440 and Plato saw many problems with But Popper completely neglects 280 00:20:05.640 --> 00:20:10.240 the latter part of Plato's life where he traveled to 281 00:20:10.519 --> 00:20:16.720 Syracuse as a philosopher to try and teach the tyrants 282 00:20:16.759 --> 00:20:20.680 of Syracuse how to become philosopher kings how to become 283 00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:27.359 moral men. And he actually offended Dionysius the first to 284 00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:30.559 the point where he was sold into slavery, so Plato 285 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:34.519 himself became a slave. I think he said something like, 286 00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:39.160 I'm looking for a good man. And Dionysus was so 287 00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:42.640 offended by the fact that he wasn't already considered a 288 00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:45.960 philosopher king that he had had enough of Plato and 289 00:20:46.119 --> 00:20:49.759 got rid of him. And then Plato was invited back 290 00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:54.119 by his friend dion to try and teach the son 291 00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:58.799 of Dionysius to become a philosopher king a moral man. 292 00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:02.440 But again and the son was also a tyrant. So 293 00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:07.920 you know, Plato's whole life and everyone he was connected 294 00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:15.200 to were you know, these fighting men without reason, and 295 00:21:15.799 --> 00:21:20.519 his life's work was trying to develop a philosophy of 296 00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:25.839 the good. And you know, we, as you know, sons 297 00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:29.160 of Western Europe owe him an enormous step for what 298 00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:34.039 he did. And you know, Popper, as a cosmopolitan Jew, 299 00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:39.240 has destroyed him in an attempt to you know, create 300 00:21:39.319 --> 00:21:43.559 something new to benefit you know, his group or his 301 00:21:43.640 --> 00:21:46.880 own view of the world based on his experiences. So 302 00:21:48.200 --> 00:21:50.039 you know, that's my perception of it. 303 00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:54.319 Yeah, and getting into it, I mean, Plato becomes the 304 00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:59.680 ultimate embodiment of the thinker of the clause society. And 305 00:21:59.720 --> 00:22:04.400 this is the big binary that Popper establishes, is the 306 00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:08.319 open society and the closed society. And you know, explain it. 307 00:22:08.359 --> 00:22:13.240 I mean, it's a very simplistic scheme, right, I mean, essentially, 308 00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:22.559 people are individualistic, we're atomistic individuals, we have reasoning capacities, 309 00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:27.960 we kind of naturally tend towards liberal, individualist societies, but 310 00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:32.039 we also have tribal impulses. Our worst impulses are tribal 311 00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:38.480 and collectivists. And true history, there are nefarious thinkers like Plato, 312 00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:42.480 Aristotle and then later on Hegel and other German thinkers 313 00:22:42.519 --> 00:22:47.240 who take advantage of this negative tribal nature and encourage 314 00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:50.559 the closed society. And the closed society is where one 315 00:22:50.680 --> 00:22:55.400 vision of the good is imposed on society, true totalitarian methods, 316 00:22:55.839 --> 00:23:01.759 where our individual rights are individual conscience or sacrificed for 317 00:23:01.960 --> 00:23:05.559 this idea of a greater good. And this is the 318 00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:08.440 source of the great evils of history. This is the 319 00:23:08.440 --> 00:23:10.960 cause of totalitarianism, and this is the cause of the 320 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:16.079 terrible twentieth century totalitarianism that Popper is reacting against, and 321 00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:20.480 because of which there's such a large audience for Propper 322 00:23:20.519 --> 00:23:25.240 when he turns to political philosophy. Now, Popper's idea of 323 00:23:25.319 --> 00:23:30.960 the open society, again, it's taken as given individual rights, 324 00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:37.920 individual conscience, anatomized individual entering into liberal society. And what 325 00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:42.440 makes it different from you know, your standard liberal democracy 326 00:23:42.519 --> 00:23:46.880 up to that point is Popper really emphasizes institutions and 327 00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:53.119 emphasizes the pluralless nature of a proper democracy. So the 328 00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:55.720 open society, it's not just that you have, you know, 329 00:23:55.759 --> 00:23:58.400 elections every four or five years, but you have to 330 00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:01.240 create the values of the open society and people. People 331 00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:05.599 have to believe in openness, tolerance, pluralism. These are the 332 00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:09.799 foundational beliefs. And it also has to be institutionalized, right, 333 00:24:09.880 --> 00:24:15.119 you have to protect minority individual rights. Rights become more 334 00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:20.720 important than the collective will, which in later years politicians 335 00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:23.720 will use this a lot and equated with populism. And 336 00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:26.200 this is where really we get this idea that there's 337 00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:30.200 a conflict between populism and democracy. This is very much 338 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:34.160 a poparian idea because you know, for him, you know, 339 00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:37.160 just the mass democratic will freed. Well, that can be 340 00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:41.079 taken advantage of by tyrants, bye detalitarians that direct that 341 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:44.920 in the direction of the closed society. What really matters 342 00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:50.000 is pluralism. What really matters is preserving as liberals will 343 00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:53.200 say out, democratic values, and the democratic values are basically 344 00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:56.720 the values of the open society. It's the values of openness. 345 00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:01.880 And then, of course, this is where another famous idea 346 00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:05.559 from Proper, the paradox of tolerance comes in that to 347 00:25:05.920 --> 00:25:10.920 uphold a tolerant open society, you can't tolerate intolerant ideas. 348 00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:15.359 So anti democratic, anti pluralist ideas need to be stamped out. 349 00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:18.400 Parties that promote them can be banned, Individuals can be 350 00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:21.960 silenced that promote these ideas, and so you get this 351 00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:27.440 scheme that leads you towards institutionalized pluralism. That pluralism has 352 00:25:27.480 --> 00:25:32.240 to be enforced through the legal system, through civil society, 353 00:25:32.759 --> 00:25:36.160 the Open Society Foundation being the perfect example actually, and 354 00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:40.680 they fund media organizations and journalists across the world. It 355 00:25:40.759 --> 00:25:44.519 needs to be enforced through international bodies that can cooperate 356 00:25:44.599 --> 00:25:49.000 to ensure individual nation states aren't taking the way the 357 00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:51.400 rights away the rights of individuals. It needs to be 358 00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:56.039 enforced through human rights agreements and treaties. And again, the 359 00:25:56.559 --> 00:25:59.880 European Convention on Human Rights are very kind of poper 360 00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:04.759 document and something that the Open Society Foundation has pushed 361 00:26:04.759 --> 00:26:08.400 for heavily is to base national constitutions and national law 362 00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:11.240 on the European Convention and human rights. That's a very 363 00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:15.599 Poperian way of looking at law and stagecraft. And so 364 00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:18.440 this is the Poperian ideal. And this is why you 365 00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:23.119 say that Popper's ideas are really what have won out 366 00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:25.359 in the twentieth century. You know, there's kind of a 367 00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:27.839 there's a more leftist approach and a more right approach. 368 00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:31.000 And he was he was friendly with Hiek, and like 369 00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:33.920 I said, libertarians looked to him. He was more of 370 00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:40.960 a social democrat himself. But the foundational pluralism and understanding 371 00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:46.160 of democracy has really become taken for granted as outlined there, 372 00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:49.440 you know, by the fact that we see populism and 373 00:26:49.480 --> 00:26:52.559 democracy as two things that are maybe not just separate, 374 00:26:52.599 --> 00:26:54.240 but potentially even incompatible. 375 00:26:54.279 --> 00:26:58.720 Now, well, yeah, that's all coming to the forefront with 376 00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:03.319 the antagonism in Germany at the moment. You know, AfD 377 00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:08.319 are rising through the polls and now the German State 378 00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:14.960 is saying, well, actually, you're a threat to democracy. A 379 00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:18.759 lot of people don't understand what that means. A lot 380 00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:22.039 of people don't understand that the German constitution is actually 381 00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:28.079 based on Carl Popper. So we're in a situation now 382 00:27:28.599 --> 00:27:36.960 where majoritarian rule, the idea of national recovery is seen 383 00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:43.480 as beyond the pale by these European institutions, German State 384 00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:51.240 or the EU EHR. So you know that that debate 385 00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:59.279 is going to be had. You know, it's interesting times ahead, 386 00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:02.079 and I think this needs to be out in the open. 387 00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:05.599 You know, if Germany is to survive as a nation, 388 00:28:06.119 --> 00:28:13.359 they need to understand the foundation of the modern constitution. 389 00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:18.480 And yeah, I guess that brings us to the other 390 00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:25.319 great philosopher. The Popper attacks in the work is his 391 00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:29.119 attack on Hegel, who many people might not know, but 392 00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:33.599 Hagel is the philosophical origin of you know, later theories 393 00:28:33.720 --> 00:28:39.119 of of Marxism and fascism. So yeah, I guess we'll 394 00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:39.880 get into that now. 395 00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:43.480 Yeah, and we're worth mentioning in that regard as well. 396 00:28:43.480 --> 00:28:48.319 I mean German legal theorists and political theorists that explicitly 397 00:28:48.519 --> 00:28:54.000 ciged Popper's paradox of tolerance to justify you know, constitutional 398 00:28:54.039 --> 00:28:59.960 bands on on parodies and these institutions in Germany, you know, 399 00:29:00.039 --> 00:29:03.519 the special like institutions to protect the constitution and so on, 400 00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:08.559 that have this incredible overarching power to ban parties and 401 00:29:08.680 --> 00:29:12.279