WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.160 --> 00:00:09.119 Hey, folks, welcome back to another episode of JavaScript Jabber. 2 00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:12.960 This week, I'm your host Charles max Wood, and we 3 00:00:13.000 --> 00:00:19.920 are here with Matthias Matts and Matthias. Do you want 4 00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:21.760 to just let people know who are I know you're 5 00:00:21.800 --> 00:00:24.760 the CEO at Whole Punch. You do the peer to 6 00:00:24.760 --> 00:00:27.839 peer stuff, right, You've got some other stuff going on. 7 00:00:27.839 --> 00:00:28.879 But who are you? 8 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:29.079 Like? 9 00:00:29.239 --> 00:00:31.239 What's your story? Sure? 10 00:00:31.399 --> 00:00:33.799 Yeah? First of all, thanks for having me. Awesome to 11 00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:37.119 be here. I always love to talk about JavaScript basically. 12 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:40.280 So yeah, like I said, I'm the CEO a Whole 13 00:00:40.320 --> 00:00:42.399 Punch not but first and foremost, I'm always like a 14 00:00:42.479 --> 00:00:47.880 JavaScript hacker. I've been doing JavaScript for ten fifteen years now. 15 00:00:48.479 --> 00:00:51.880 I started when I was in university. That's when I 16 00:00:51.880 --> 00:00:55.520 started programming. We had a mandatory Java. At some point, 17 00:00:55.920 --> 00:00:58.560 you know, I google Java and I got JavaScript and 18 00:00:58.600 --> 00:01:00.759 I started doing that and I never looked at ever since. 19 00:01:01.799 --> 00:01:06.159 I've been a pretty significant contributor to the no jets project. 20 00:01:06.239 --> 00:01:09.719 I've done tons of open source modules for NPM. I 21 00:01:09.719 --> 00:01:12.239 think I have around fifteen hundred on there now, like 22 00:01:12.319 --> 00:01:13.400 quite a significant amount. 23 00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:15.879 I usually say, if you. 24 00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:18.400 Have box, I'm sorry because I've probably made some of 25 00:01:18.400 --> 00:01:27.200 those and I am a big lover of JavaScript because 26 00:01:27.239 --> 00:01:31.200 I think it's one of those languages that just oddly 27 00:01:31.280 --> 00:01:33.680 enough that people use it to make things where the 28 00:01:33.719 --> 00:01:35.480 point is not to write code, is to write things, 29 00:01:35.519 --> 00:01:37.760 if you know what I mean. Like it's not art, 30 00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:44.799 it's like engineering, which I can't. I used a lot 31 00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:46.040 to do all kinds of things, like I said, fifteen 32 00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:48.400 hundred modules, but I'm especially in love with it for 33 00:01:48.439 --> 00:01:51.239 doing distributed systems and peer to peer because I think 34 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:54.040 it's a perfect candidate for that because it runs everywhere, 35 00:01:54.079 --> 00:01:56.280 it's easy, it's very good at moving data around with 36 00:01:56.319 --> 00:01:57.079 the abstractions. 37 00:01:57.200 --> 00:01:59.760 So I've done a lot of that, and recently. 38 00:02:01.280 --> 00:02:04.599 Before years ago, I started a company with a couple 39 00:02:04.599 --> 00:02:07.799 of friends called Whole Punch that is focused around Peter 40 00:02:07.840 --> 00:02:11.520 peer engineering with JavaScript. So it's really fun. We've been 41 00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:14.919 going for a while with accurring a lot. Yeah, and 42 00:02:14.960 --> 00:02:16.639 so now we're just doing all kinds of things with 43 00:02:16.719 --> 00:02:19.159 JavaScript and native code and mixing that name with the 44 00:02:19.240 --> 00:02:23.680 JavaScript and making like crazy Pewter peer things and yeah, 45 00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:26.240 tons of fun and tons of really cool projects. We're 46 00:02:26.240 --> 00:02:29.039 really trying to disrupt the status coe and it's it's 47 00:02:29.159 --> 00:02:30.360 it's yeah, it's going quite low. 48 00:02:31.960 --> 00:02:32.439 Awesome. 49 00:02:32.560 --> 00:02:34.280 Yeah, I'd love to dive into some of the peer 50 00:02:34.280 --> 00:02:36.800 to peer stuff. Are you doing like web RTC or 51 00:02:36.919 --> 00:02:39.000 is it different than that? 52 00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:41.159 So it's really funny because I actually think when I 53 00:02:41.159 --> 00:02:43.599 think about my transition in JavaScript is kind of like 54 00:02:43.599 --> 00:02:47.199 like experience in JavaScript. The more I've done JavaScript, the 55 00:02:47.240 --> 00:02:49.759 more I moved away from the browser and more like 56 00:02:49.879 --> 00:02:53.719 just writing JavaScript outside outside the barrows APIs, which I 57 00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:55.479 think is a journey. There's a lot of people have 58 00:02:55.599 --> 00:02:57.879 because the language is just really good for that. So 59 00:02:58.039 --> 00:02:59.719 as anybody else, I've done a lot of dabbling with 60 00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:04.639 to see and building things and then at whole punching 61 00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:08.560 me and general I'm very into like building serious the 62 00:03:08.599 --> 00:03:11.039 technology that is like not that repudcy isn't serious, but 63 00:03:11.080 --> 00:03:13.240 like things where we can kind of like reporty Cy 64 00:03:13.319 --> 00:03:15.560 is usually meant build to like tag. 65 00:03:15.439 --> 00:03:16.560 On things to like another. 66 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:19.120 It's kind of like you know, uh, it has like 67 00:03:19.319 --> 00:03:21.719 a chat video thing and stuff like that, but it's 68 00:03:21.719 --> 00:03:23.919 not really meant to be the backbone of your applications. 69 00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:27.280 So we're like more about building things where everything is 70 00:03:27.280 --> 00:03:29.599 peer to peer is like as a primitive build into everything, 71 00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:31.000 so you don't like you actually don't do. 72 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:33.479 HDP, you don't do TCP, you only use Pewter pre 73 00:03:33.560 --> 00:03:36.120 data structures. But with JavaScript that do that. 74 00:03:36.199 --> 00:03:37.719 So so we actually don't do any of that, but 75 00:03:37.759 --> 00:03:40.759 we build a ton of primitives out for doing like 76 00:03:42.280 --> 00:03:44.280 you know, like hope punching. That's part of our name 77 00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:47.479 in the company that connect. That means connecting people behind firewalls, 78 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:49.360 like you do in webar dec but like much better 79 00:03:49.400 --> 00:03:51.960 because the report se stuff is a bit dated there. 80 00:03:52.840 --> 00:03:55.479 Moving terabytes all day around with that kind of stuff 81 00:03:56.360 --> 00:03:57.280 media files. 82 00:03:57.439 --> 00:03:59.080 And then and then, and this is my favorite thing 83 00:03:59.080 --> 00:04:02.960 about JavaScript, presenting that to like users with some manpis 84 00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:04.960 that are somewhat familiar with them so they can just 85 00:04:05.080 --> 00:04:07.000 do what JavaScript is also really good at, like building 86 00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:11.840 your eyes and plugging that data in, which is very 87 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:13.479 hard skilled to have. Also, and we have a lot 88 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:16.600 of talent people in the community obviously, so we're like 89 00:04:16.639 --> 00:04:20.759 about like JavaScript and to end and then like allowing 90 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:24.279 people to build applications. Obviously there's a lot of CN 91 00:04:24.279 --> 00:04:26.120 and C plus plus and there also to make that. 92 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:29.040 Stuff go right sounds good. 93 00:04:29.120 --> 00:04:32.079 So so yeah, so you're not doing web RTC, you're 94 00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:34.279 doing you're building BitTorrent and Dropbox. 95 00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:39.519 Yeah, and I actually started when I first started dabbling 96 00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:42.399 in Pewter peers. I built that peer client for for 97 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:44.720 bitttern because I was like, that's like a fun little 98 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:47.519 thing to do, and that was a. 99 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:47.680 Crazy cool experience. 100 00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:50.800 I always tell this to people if you ever, it 101 00:04:50.879 --> 00:04:52.839 is really fun because bitturn has one. 102 00:04:52.720 --> 00:04:53.480 Of those things. 103 00:04:54.040 --> 00:04:56.199 I did it like that was like ten fifteen years 104 00:04:56.199 --> 00:04:58.680 ago when bittern was really really big and it was 105 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:00.839 everywhere and like you know, rate day was a website 106 00:05:00.839 --> 00:05:01.279 you could go to. 107 00:05:01.319 --> 00:05:02.879 Now I think it's probably blocked everywhere. 108 00:05:03.959 --> 00:05:07.560 Yeah, I don't know, but yeah, not that I've ever 109 00:05:07.759 --> 00:05:10.879 used pirate a because I would never do anything illegal. 110 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:15.480 It's good for donalding Linux, I heard. But it was 111 00:05:15.519 --> 00:05:17.600 really cool. It was really cool for. 112 00:05:19.639 --> 00:05:21.399 That whole you know experience where you just sit on 113 00:05:21.399 --> 00:05:23.160 your laptop You're like, what should I play with? But 114 00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:25.199 all the data is actually out there because it's distributed 115 00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:26.839 and everywhere, so you can can't just sit there and 116 00:05:27.319 --> 00:05:29.120 build a little program on your computer. You can go 117 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:31.199 to Wikipedia and just read this BAC. It was It's 118 00:05:31.240 --> 00:05:33.759 like it's actually not very complicated once you you know, 119 00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:35.920 understand the first bits of it. I just went a 120 00:05:35.959 --> 00:05:39.160 couple of weekends in a row doing that. But I 121 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:41.399 and I've mentioned this many times on all interviews, but 122 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:44.680 like that whole feeling of like it's just me my computer, JavaScript, 123 00:05:44.759 --> 00:05:46.800 everything is everywhere. Once I can just sit here and 124 00:05:46.920 --> 00:05:48.639 write code and never have to give you anything else. 125 00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:51.360 That was like that triggered triggered me massively to to 126 00:05:51.439 --> 00:05:54.319 dive into this, and uh, yeah, I build a little 127 00:05:54.839 --> 00:05:56.959 torn client from that that's still out there. Was called 128 00:05:56.959 --> 00:06:00.439 the pure Flex pretty popular, but yeah, it was like 129 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:02.600 a crazy good experience and I've never looked back ever since. 130 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:04.959 Right makes sense. 131 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:09.040 So we're going to be talking about the Bear JavaScript 132 00:06:09.240 --> 00:06:14.199 run time. But you were talking before about the pair 133 00:06:15.399 --> 00:06:16.399 system that you have for. 134 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:20.920 Yeah, for peer to peer stuff. 135 00:06:20.920 --> 00:06:23.839 And one thing that I was curious about is it 136 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:26.040 because I'm gonna ask you what it is, but I 137 00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:31.720 also want to figure out what it is. And then 138 00:06:31.839 --> 00:06:35.879 how that led to you creating another runtime because it 139 00:06:35.959 --> 00:06:39.639 seems like, you know, we've got Node and Dino and 140 00:06:39.879 --> 00:06:42.360 bun and so you know you're doing something maybe a 141 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:45.879 little different. Why does that lead you to, oh, we 142 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:47.439 need another one of these things? 143 00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:52.600 Yeah? Excited? Oh yeah, Like I said, I've been doing 144 00:06:52.680 --> 00:06:55.120 not what I love Node for a long time, and 145 00:06:55.279 --> 00:06:58.000 we build out our high stack that's like no modules 146 00:06:58.040 --> 00:07:00.839 like anybody else, native code of the stuff. 147 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:03.959 Note has a really good native language or facing with 148 00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:07.519 C and stuff that we're big fans of. We build 149 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:10.399 all stuff out was great and at some point, as 150 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:12.480 anybody else who builds no GS apps, you want. 151 00:07:12.319 --> 00:07:14.199 To distribute them, right, so you make an app these. 152 00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:16.920 Project modules modules are really easy, and you want to 153 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:20.439 make an application, and actually, like make an application is 154 00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:23.560 I think still surprisingly tricky. It's like where if you're 155 00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:25.680 building a web application, there's tons of stuff out there 156 00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:27.240 for that, Like you can you can make a little 157 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:30.160 app and maybe you can go and get a server 158 00:07:30.199 --> 00:07:31.639 and you can host engine X and or whatever. But 159 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:33.480 if you want to make something that's like a desktop app, 160 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:37.160 you can use Electron. But it's it's it's it's the 161 00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:40.079 process that once you start doing the end all the bits, 162 00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:43.439 like you know, making the app, packaging and uh, getting 163 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:45.160 the stuff in there, getting the native stuff to Ron, 164 00:07:45.800 --> 00:07:48.639 distributing and getting updates in there, getting that to Ron, 165 00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:53.000 it's like it's not as simple as making a Note module, 166 00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:54.279 and like it's a real investment. 167 00:07:54.360 --> 00:07:55.600 So you end up just making one app. 168 00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:57.439 Where I would normally make like one hundred modules, I 169 00:07:57.480 --> 00:07:59.920 probably made like one or two apps because that that investment, 170 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:04.439 it's just so intense every time. So so we had 171 00:08:04.439 --> 00:08:06.160 all the code for pew tore peers, so we decided, 172 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:10.240 like why not make an engine. That's what the pair 173 00:08:10.279 --> 00:08:13.600 system is, pair and bear we'd like like to make 174 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:14.120 puns on that. 175 00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:15.120 So it's two different things. 176 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:17.839 But the pair pair system was like an idea to say, 177 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:20.360 what if we instead you could just make kind of 178 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:21.920 like you make a module and like a website. You 179 00:08:21.920 --> 00:08:23.360 can just make a little thing on your computer. It 180 00:08:23.480 --> 00:08:25.279 just has the modules. You run it through this cool 181 00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:28.639 thing which is called pair that you can go to 182 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:30.160 pairs dot com and you can you can try it 183 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:32.480 out and it just packages up into like a little 184 00:08:32.519 --> 00:08:35.080 app with all the tooling, and then that app is 185 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:36.960 distributed to peer on our PTP network. 186 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:38.919 So like you don't have to have any like hosting anything. 187 00:08:38.960 --> 00:08:39.919 You can just kind of like. 188 00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:42.159 You do with like like I said, with you know, 189 00:08:42.279 --> 00:08:44.799 normal normal things. You just package it up, run at 190 00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:47.559 a simple command and you get a link out and 191 00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:50.000 that link. If anybody else has this this run time install, 192 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:51.639 they can just paste it and they can run the 193 00:08:51.639 --> 00:08:54.919 ABB anywhere. And then instead of spending in tons and 194 00:08:54.919 --> 00:08:56.519 tons of time making and you can just make them 195 00:08:56.519 --> 00:08:58.759 as easier as you make modules. And like again no 196 00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:00.799 hosting costs no in think because it's. 197 00:09:00.679 --> 00:09:02.919 Just distributed putre peer like you know in bittern. 198 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:06.679 So so so we deep that on that quite a 199 00:09:06.679 --> 00:09:10.960 bit and we made something really cool for that, which is, 200 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:13.279 like I said, called pair that does all that stuff. 201 00:09:13.399 --> 00:09:16.039 It's super cool and. 202 00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:21.960 As part of that journey for us, and I think 203 00:09:21.960 --> 00:09:24.080 this is actually a huge missing step up the gaoscript, 204 00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:26.960 We're like, it's super cool to make these apps, right, 205 00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:29.080 So we have an app that we build that called Keat, 206 00:09:29.080 --> 00:09:30.279 which is a chat app. We do that as a 207 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:32.519 puture pewer chat aup is super cool. Also, let's building 208 00:09:32.519 --> 00:09:37.279 all this stuff as no just developers. As soon as 209 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:38.960 you make an app like that and you make it 210 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:40.559 and it's cool, looks great and it has all the 211 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:42.039 cool stuff, the first thing people. 212 00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:43.879 Ask you is like, cool, when is it nonmobile? 213 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:49.759 The answer was always like, oh, yeah, you know, we 214 00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:51.679 don't have a mobile team yet and I can kind 215 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:52.919 of scale it up. And it was like you know 216 00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:54.639 that that whole feeling when it's like a fork in 217 00:09:54.679 --> 00:09:56.559 the in the in the process come to a degree 218 00:09:56.639 --> 00:09:58.840 like we have all this stuff figured out for doing 219 00:10:00.440 --> 00:10:05.039 desktop development and make a cool notejas things for this 220 00:10:05.159 --> 00:10:07.080 top and for servers, but like getting that stuff to 221 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:09.480 run our phone, just like you will find some like 222 00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:12.159 two year old project and maybe got something to work 223 00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:13.919 at some point and it hasn't been maintained because it 224 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:18.399 was an experiment and stuff like that. So and there 225 00:10:18.440 --> 00:10:20.799 was already really good you know, UI tooling on mobile 226 00:10:20.840 --> 00:10:23.240 like reac native is really good. All the things are 227 00:10:23.240 --> 00:10:25.440 really good on on on on phones to make UI 228 00:10:25.519 --> 00:10:27.120 apps kind of like react this really good on this 229 00:10:27.159 --> 00:10:28.799 stup for making UY apps. 230 00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:31.559 So we're really missing that part. We're like, well, what 231 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:32.840 about the bag end? 232 00:10:32.919 --> 00:10:34.840 So in period, the back end runs everywhere, like you 233 00:10:34.879 --> 00:10:36.200 don't want to run it on a server, You want 234 00:10:36.200 --> 00:10:38.600 to run that ud the device. But the bag end 235 00:10:38.639 --> 00:10:42.279 has much different capability needs than than a front end, 236 00:10:42.279 --> 00:10:43.799 Like you need to be able to load native code 237 00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:45.960 so you can like you know, do stuff like video 238 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:47.440 trends coding if you want to do that on the phone, 239 00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:49.159 do stuff like native networking if you want to do that. 240 00:10:49.159 --> 00:10:50.840 In the phone for modules. 241 00:10:51.720 --> 00:10:55.080 So so we very quickly decided like, let's try to 242 00:10:55.080 --> 00:10:58.440 get not jets running, and we just couldn't do it 243 00:10:58.440 --> 00:11:00.279 because it's like it's just not made for it, and 244 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:02.240 the module system is not made for and like making 245 00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:05.480 bills for like again, I totally started to understand why 246 00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:08.480 these partics pop up and never really go anywhere because 247 00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:11.720 there's there's too much stuff, there's too much things to fight, 248 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:16.120 and so instead we were like, well, actually, what is 249 00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:18.799 the thing we want to we really love from no 250 00:11:18.919 --> 00:11:22.440 DS And for us, that's like the module system MPM. 251 00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:25.440 That's amazing, it works. It's like one of the most 252 00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:29.080 well designed things ever. Uh and and the native system 253 00:11:29.159 --> 00:11:31.960 for know like how to interface from note to see 254 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:33.480 the thing not not a lot of people do, but 255 00:11:33.519 --> 00:11:35.679 when you do it, you're you know, it's it's amazingly 256 00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:39.159 well designed. No years, so we're like, what if we 257 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:41.200 just made a new run time that actually didn't have 258 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:42.720 any of the other stuff, because all the other stuff 259 00:11:42.759 --> 00:11:43.720 is actually what made it hard. 260 00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:44.639 The other stuff is. 261 00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:49.240 Like things like AGP bindings, things like fastest and bindings. 262 00:11:49.240 --> 00:11:50.960 Even though that sounds kind of insane not to have it, 263 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:52.679 that's the thing that makes it really hard to port, 264 00:11:53.320 --> 00:11:56.919 and instead just had a module system. So no APIs 265 00:11:56.919 --> 00:11:58.759 a module system, a native system. And then it had 266 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:01.639 a stated goal of saying, with those two things, how 267 00:12:01.639 --> 00:12:04.559 can we make something that actually runs everywhere, So like 268 00:12:04.679 --> 00:12:08.080 something that you can write a module once it runs 269 00:12:08.120 --> 00:12:11.960 on this top a mobile phone, your smart light bulb, 270 00:12:11.960 --> 00:12:17.200 if it has to run time anywhere. And we made 271 00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:20.519 this little thing for for our PTP engine pair and 272 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:22.240 at some point we were like, wow, this is actually 273 00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:25.879 insanely cool by itself, so we decided to split it 274 00:12:25.960 --> 00:12:28.799 up into Bear. So that's why the pair bear Plunk 275 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:29.159 came in. 276 00:12:29.960 --> 00:12:30.360 So we. 277 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:34.679 Officially released this I think it was last week. It's 278 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:38.080 been really exciting, so that's that's the bear JAS run time. 279 00:12:38.679 --> 00:12:41.360 It's bare because it does nothing but but does everything, 280 00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:44.720 so it only ships a module system. It only ships 281 00:12:44.759 --> 00:12:46.720 this native thing and then it just we just made 282 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:48.559 I think we already made like two hundred modules for it. 283 00:12:49.639 --> 00:12:52.120 So if you want to use like file systems, you 284 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:55.720 just install a file system module that runs again, because 285 00:12:55.759 --> 00:13:00.039 it's using these bindings everywhere. On mobile we use a 286 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:03.279 binding for doing push notifications. That's the thing you obviously 287 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:05.120 don't want to use that on desktop. Then on desktop 288 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:06.600 you want to do other things like maybe we on 289 00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:08.279 an HTP server, you can do that. You can also 290 00:13:08.279 --> 00:13:08.879 do it the mobile. 291 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:10.039 Uh. 292 00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:14.000 And we just did this because you know, we wanted 293 00:13:14.039 --> 00:13:16.480 to unlock our own development. I am a big believer 294 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:19.279 in modular design, and that's that's part of it. But 295 00:13:20.679 --> 00:13:22.639 I was very excited when we did it because I'm like, Wow, 296 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:25.399 this is actually what I've been missing my entirety is career. 297 00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:29.759 I think. So it's it's it's super cool and super. 298 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:31.600 Yeah. 299 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:35.120 So I guess what I'm curious about, just to start 300 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:35.519 off with. 301 00:13:35.799 --> 00:13:36.039 Is. 302 00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:43.840 So it it's it's a bare bones JavaScript implementation as 303 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:48.159 opposed to say note or bun or whatever that pulls 304 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:50.960 in a ton of stuff. I mean sometimes that ton 305 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:54.320 of stuff is nice to have, but yeah. 306 00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:56.480 Yeah, it's basically saying it's flipping in it around a 307 00:13:56.519 --> 00:14:00.639 little bit, saying it's just JavaScript, what anything? So like 308 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:03.879 JavaScript without anything, it's actually hard to define, right. I 309 00:14:03.879 --> 00:14:07.279 don't even think like where does the specs stop and end? 310 00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:09.600 Because you know, stuff like where the people might think 311 00:14:09.639 --> 00:14:11.679 that's part of JavaScript because it's there in the browser, 312 00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:13.320 but it's not really, it's something it's like a different 313 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:15.080 spec it's not a language thing. But then there's other 314 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:18.759 things where you're like something like a type the array 315 00:14:18.759 --> 00:14:20.360 in JavaScript, you know, like you and AI that ray 316 00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:22.480 is that part of the language, and that's that's very 317 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:24.320 part of the core of language. Is it's actually really 318 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:27.039 hard as unless you really going through like what this 319 00:14:27.159 --> 00:14:30.440 JavaScript is. So for us, we're like, we just want 320 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:33.120 something that just runs the JavaScript and has the only 321 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:35.000 thing bigd in is like a module system. You want 322 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:38.039 to be able to somehow load things, so like import. 323 00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:43.840 It's very important and clear rules about how that import works. 324 00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:46.799 So we still follow the note note modules algorithm, which 325 00:14:46.840 --> 00:14:48.840 means you can stall things from MPM because then you 326 00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:55.039 get free compatit and stuff. But everything else, and this 327 00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:57.240 might be a little bit controversial, but everything else actually 328 00:14:57.240 --> 00:14:59.600 just makes your life harder because like if you have 329 00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:01.679 something like a file system build in like you know 330 00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:03.840 in NOGS you can do require f as you get 331 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:06.679 a file system. Right, that's something where you're like, wow, 332 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:08.799 that's the feature, and it is a feature. But for 333 00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:14.120 me as a SUM as a developer, it's also a 334 00:15:15.080 --> 00:15:20.200 what's the word liability us If you just get that 335 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:22.360 from the runtime if the runtimes give you that API, 336 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:25.240 what's the version of that API you're getting, Like, are 337 00:15:25.240 --> 00:15:28.240 you getting the latest one? That's like in NOE twenty 338 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:29.639 four A, you're getting into one from No. 339 00:15:29.720 --> 00:15:30.120 Eighteen. 340 00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:32.840 Well you might know it because you're installed note on 341 00:15:32.840 --> 00:15:34.840 your computer, but if you're running it on somebody else computer, 342 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:38.879 you don't know. As that API changes, it becomes actually 343 00:15:38.919 --> 00:15:42.399 really hard to code against. And the only solution is 344 00:15:42.440 --> 00:15:46.080 that that ABHI basically never changes, which is then why 345 00:15:46.120 --> 00:15:48.679 we have a lot of this stuff in nogs will. 346 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:51.799 Really why is the FS module still using callbacks for 347 00:15:51.799 --> 00:15:53.759 example as the default, Well, that's because we don't want 348 00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:58.159 to break all stuff. If instead there is nothing built 349 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:00.320 in only the javas respect which is very build around 350 00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:03.639 never changing. And you then load modules, then modules can 351 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:05.440 just change. You can just kind of like React changes 352 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:07.200 all the time, right, You can just publish a new 353 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:09.159 major version and then people on the old major version 354 00:16:09.159 --> 00:16:11.679 can just stay and now one that's fine, and then 355 00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:13.120 people who want to get the new stuff can just 356 00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:14.679 move a new on and you never break anything. So 357 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:17.120 you can just have this rapid rapid iteration of like 358 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:21.960 crazy designs that never break anything. In practice, The plot 359 00:16:22.039 --> 00:16:23.879 side of that is then you also don't have to 360 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:29.039 ship that code around. So that's really useful for stuff 361 00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:31.000 like mobile where you have different kind of footprints, like 362 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:35.279 a mobile. If you're running an application that uses JavaScript 363 00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:37.440 on mobile, maybe you don't want to load like open 364 00:16:37.519 --> 00:16:39.279 ass a cell from not yes because you're not using 365 00:16:39.320 --> 00:16:42.279 and that's a big dependency and liability and also something 366 00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:43.960 you have to get approval for in the app stores 367 00:16:43.960 --> 00:16:46.480 and things like that. Or if note adds something else, 368 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:48.879 you just want to run run the JavaScript and then 369 00:16:48.919 --> 00:16:50.320 you just want to pull in exactly what you need. 370 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:55.360 So that was our design goal from the beginning. And 371 00:16:55.399 --> 00:16:57.679 for me, that's one of those things again when you 372 00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:00.759 hear about it sounds like an empty feature, but I 373 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:02.720 think it's you know what I mean with the normal 374 00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:05.000 distribution with the guy in the middle, it's kind of 375 00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:07.079 like no modules on both ends. And the guy in 376 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:09.319 the middle is like, I love all the modules, Like 377 00:17:09.799 --> 00:17:11.720 you actually want to have nothing ship with rue time. 378 00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:13.759 You want to have nothing ship with your run time, 379 00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:18.480 and then you just want to pull in all the things. 380 00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:23.319 And and I'm talking a lot, but I'm excited about it. 381 00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:26.400 But like and add the benefit of that is like again, 382 00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:28.119 if you look at something like Bond, I think Bond 383 00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:30.839 it changed course a little bit, but one of the 384 00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:33.759 original things about Bond that was like a cool thing 385 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:35.519 was like, it's not based on V eight. 386 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:40.079 It's based on jobasrip core I think the one from Webcait. 387 00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:43.160 And it has different profiles and it's very good at 388 00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:45.359 other stuff, and like VA is better and other stuff. 389 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:48.920 So it's kind of like there's like a major for you, 390 00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:50.640 Like you want to use j's core, well, the. 391 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:52.400 Need to probably use Bond, you want to use VAH 392 00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:56.039 should probably use note when you do a runtime like 393 00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:59.440 this where basically saying there's nothing in here except the 394 00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:06.319 language and the module system, then changing jouascrip inmentations and 395 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:07.880 all of a sudden really easy because you're not really 396 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:08.599 doing much. 397 00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:08.920 Except for that. 398 00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:13.599 So our guys made a cooler library called lip jas, 399 00:18:14.359 --> 00:18:17.200 which is basically just like a binding an abstraction layer 400 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:20.359 for any engine because that's really easy, easy to define, okay, 401 00:18:21.039 --> 00:18:24.240 and that means that in there we can support any 402 00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:26.400 JAS engine basically. So we already have it working on 403 00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:28.519 MB eight because we is awesome. We have it working 404 00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:30.480 on JavaScript core. So you know, if you want to 405 00:18:30.519 --> 00:18:32.680 use that on iOS. It can just run that seamlessly. 406 00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:36.079 Am Song made this really cool JavaScript engine I don't 407 00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:37.799 know if you know what, called jerryscript, which is like 408 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:42.839 a JAS engine based for embedded systems, so it runs 409 00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:46.599 in like have a Megabytom memory obviously like slower and 410 00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:48.440 other things, but like it means that they can actually run. 411 00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:50.519 On things like light bulbs and stuff. Bear runs with. 412 00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:52.839 That straight up, and that's cool. 413 00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:56.519 And you as a module offer when you write modules 414 00:18:56.559 --> 00:18:58.279 to Bear, you don't know any of this. You just 415 00:18:58.359 --> 00:19:00.680 run you just write JavaScript, but it just runs on 416 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:02.400 this straight up. So you can actually take any band 417 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:04.720 module out there, so you can take out we haven't 418 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:07.519 you know, We've made a module for five systems called Bear. 419 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:09.000 Affets, which is just a module you can donald. 420 00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:11.279 So you can actually install that and run that on 421 00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:13.279 Jerry script and run it on a light bulb. But 422 00:19:13.319 --> 00:19:15.039 you can install that and run it on jais corn, 423 00:19:15.079 --> 00:19:16.759 run on Iris, or you can run it on V 424 00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:19.960 eight or whatever. And I think that's like that to 425 00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:21.680 me was like wow, this is where this is gonna 426 00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:22.200 you know. 427 00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:24.680 On people. Once people realize this is like this is 428 00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:26.119 going to be crazy. 429 00:19:28.119 --> 00:19:36.759 That is crazy. Yeah, I'm imagining, you know, I mean 430 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:40.039 you kind of go nuts, you put spider Monkey on there, you. 431 00:19:40.039 --> 00:19:47.599 Know, whatever floats your boat. That that's interesting. Yeah, So. 432 00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:51.119 It's like just to add on that because it's almost 433 00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:53.400 like I think it's one of those things where people 434 00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:56.319 don't realize almost like the implications of that. But for example, 435 00:19:56.400 --> 00:19:59.319 like if you do move Mobile development and you want 436 00:19:59.319 --> 00:20:03.359 to run something that reacts to a push notification on iOS, 437 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:04.920 that's something you can do. 438 00:20:06.759 --> 00:20:07.440 On iOS. 439 00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:09.680 You only have like twenty megabytes of memory to do that, 440 00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:12.160 not to be nerded, but like that's a requirement. So 441 00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:14.119 if you run if you run V eight with that, 442 00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:17.079 it's like V eight takes fifteen megabytes of memory. You 443 00:20:17.079 --> 00:20:20.279 have five five megabytes of memory for application. You feel 444 00:20:20.279 --> 00:20:22.359 like the guy who's like programming the program to go 445 00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:24.400 to the moon, right You're sitting there optimizing every line 446 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:26.920 to like make it fit memory right in like twenty 447 00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:27.640 twenty five. 448 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:28.240 It's insane. 449 00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:30.960 So what we do is we just swap it out 450 00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:34.279 for jerryscript, same code. Boom, memory goes down. It's the 451 00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:36.599 same as writing it and the sea basically because now 452 00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:38.400 it's like footprint is very small and Rue's slower, but 453 00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:40.920 doesn't matter. It's in the push notification and now we 454 00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:42.680 can do all the things, right, So it's like you 455 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:44.359 can pick your battles at a reason. 456 00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:50.440 Yeah, that's that's really interesting. So let's talk about mobile 457 00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:54.680 for a minute, because I mean we've done shows on 458 00:20:54.759 --> 00:21:00.519 things like Capacitor or Ionic, right, and so those those 459 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:03.000 just use the web WebView, right, and then they connect 460 00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:11.119 to stuff through the JavaScript core bridge on iOS and 461 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:15.480 you know it kind of does the things. And yeah, 462 00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:17.920 running some of these other engines, I mean, there are 463 00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:23.200 languages you can't run on iOS because you know it does. 464 00:21:24.200 --> 00:21:26.400 There are various reasons. I'm not going to get into them, 465 00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:30.319 but some of it's because it opens the gate to 466 00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:34.880 certain security things they can't sandbox it properly. And sometimes 467 00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:37.839 it's because, yeah, those languages just take up too much 468 00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:41.799 in the way of resources. But when you get down 469 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:44.480 to other things like React Native, I mean, they work 470 00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:48.359 almost exclusively across that JavaScript bridge, but they're still using 471 00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:51.799 the runtime JavaScript that's built into the phone. And it 472 00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:54.240 sounds like what you're doing here is you're actually saying, hey, 473 00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:57.240 we've got this other JavaScript engine that you're going to 474 00:21:57.319 --> 00:21:59.640 run as part of your app, and I'm assuming if 475 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:01.839 you ploy an app to the app Store, it ships 476 00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:05.160 with the JavaScript run time embedded in the app along 477 00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:11.599 with everything else. And so my question is you're nodding, 478 00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:17.480 so I'm assuming I'm getting it right. My question is, yeah, 479 00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:22.039 what kind of limitations are there to this? And then 480 00:22:22.279 --> 00:22:25.440 the other question is is what kind of advantage does 481 00:22:25.480 --> 00:22:29.880 it give you? Because I'm aware that some apps, depending 482 00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:33.920 on if it's JavaScript, the iOS for example, thinks of 483 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:36.960 it as an as an asset, a static asset, as 484 00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:40.000 opposed to or at least they used to as opposed 485 00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:42.440 to you know, part of the app, and so you 486 00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:45.920 could actually do a hot reload and things like that 487 00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:48.240 with it. And I'm just so I'm wondering, like what 488 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:52.279 doors does this actually open beyond sort of performance and 489 00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:54.960 having my app run there and on the desktop. 490 00:22:56.119 --> 00:22:59.200 So yeah, super interesting. It's actually you're very very much 491 00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:02.640 under my track here and in general. So so for example, 492 00:23:02.680 --> 00:23:04.960 our app, we our chat up key, which is our 493 00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:07.440 flagship app, will we deploy orders. It's a RAG native app, 494 00:23:08.119 --> 00:23:10.759 and we have a bunch of reagnative developers. We're very 495 00:23:10.759 --> 00:23:12.920 good at making stuff REACNATD. I'm big, I'm a big 496 00:23:12.920 --> 00:23:15.839 fan of Reagnative and the way they do stuff, and 497 00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:19.480 like it's it's it's it's a really cool project. Very 498 00:23:19.559 --> 00:23:23.200 very still very underrated project because people just sar JavaScript 499 00:23:23.240 --> 00:23:25.000 and sometimes you know how people are to freak out, 500 00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:30.119 but it's like it's it's incredibly well designed. So we 501 00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:34.359 actually run the way you describe where we run, and 502 00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:36.680 we have a module for this with React native that 503 00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:40.680 just integrates the runtime with reacnative, so dot the hot 504 00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:42.799 reloadings and whenever you update the code order stuff. It 505 00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:47.480 works like magically. World is super cool. So we run 506 00:23:47.599 --> 00:23:51.119 the run our runtime next to the Regnative runtime, kind 507 00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:53.799 of like you would run a back end normally, right, 508 00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:55.799 so you have like a separate process normally runs on 509 00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:57.599 a server. You run it on device because we use 510 00:23:57.640 --> 00:23:59.359 it mainly for future peer but we use all kinds 511 00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:02.160 of things where you then ship the run time with it. 512 00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:03.160 It's it's not that big. 513 00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:08.079 It's like I think it's like ten megabytes. The reason 514 00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:11.920 why to do this is many many reasons. One is like, yeah, 515 00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:13.680 like you said, you can do all kinds of performance things. 516 00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:18.400 The runtime has a very clear defined native interface, so 517 00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:20.400 you can you can make native modules, which is very 518 00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:23.240 important for us. Like, for example, we just made some 519 00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:26.680 bindings for we need our app for fmpech for doing 520 00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:30.319 like video conversion and stuff like that. So we write them. 521 00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:32.759 You write a what module wants for Bear, you write 522 00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:35.000 bind to the native language. It runs, and nodias and 523 00:24:35.079 --> 00:24:40.160 runs and Bear. Then it also runs on the phones 524 00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:43.680 immediately because that's by part of that contract, assuming like 525 00:24:43.720 --> 00:24:45.400 that the phones can you know run thus that that 526 00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:50.039 CE library, but honestly almost always they can, and you 527 00:24:50.119 --> 00:24:53.519 never touched that code again, and it's like globally universal everywhere, 528 00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:56.119 and that's that's the true unlock. So like we're iterating 529 00:24:56.359 --> 00:24:59.279 so much fast now because we never really think about 530 00:24:59.319 --> 00:25:01.240 that bridge of crossing the things. I think people are 531 00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:05.559 overfixated on making cross platform UI things, you know kind 532 00:25:05.559 --> 00:25:07.720 of like somebody will probably say, well, you can run 533 00:25:07.720 --> 00:25:11.400 reagnative on the desktop also, and then you can maybe 534 00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:12.960 do some of the same things, and like to some 535 00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:15.599 degree that's true, but it's also like by overcoupling things 536 00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:19.160 to U I react native visit your I framework, you're 537 00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:21.960 not getting that like massive iteration speed that you get 538 00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:25.519 from like making no jezz modules where no jets modules. 539 00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:27.240 The other way is like something not nothing to do 540 00:25:27.319 --> 00:25:29.319 at all with with UI, but. 541 00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:32.000 It's just like making functionalities that then you know, enhance 542 00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:34.319 your app and enhanced your back And so we do 543 00:25:34.359 --> 00:25:36.240 the same thing with Bear modules. So you just write 544 00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:39.279 them once they run everywhere. By composing your app logic 545 00:25:39.319 --> 00:25:42.000 for these modules, you're actually just making an app ad 546 00:25:42.680 --> 00:25:44.759 logic thing that does all kinds of things like image 547 00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:46.720 scaling like I said, or like just run your engine 548 00:25:46.759 --> 00:25:48.240 for us. It's running like a whole piece of peer 549 00:25:48.279 --> 00:25:52.119 stack and you literally doesn't change it between desktop and 550 00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:54.599 mobile or embedded devices, is exactly the same code you 551 00:25:54.680 --> 00:25:58.440 run it for us. That's been like one of those 552 00:25:58.519 --> 00:26:01.960 like wow, we went from like working you know one 553 00:26:02.119 --> 00:26:04.200 x ten x now one hundred x faster, Like it's 554 00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:06.559 crazy how fast we can literate now because we never think. 555 00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:08.880 About honestly, and this is like really true, we. 556 00:26:08.839 --> 00:26:11.240 Never think about those boundaries anymore of like where else 557 00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:13.599 this run and we just right it and then runs everywhere. 558 00:26:14.359 --> 00:26:16.960 And for the deployment stories and all that, it's just 559 00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:20.359 meant that our teams are just so productive because we 560 00:26:20.519 --> 00:26:22.160 so we have the way we start to that it's 561 00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:23.960 like we have a mobile team they work on really 562 00:26:24.039 --> 00:26:26.319 native that's obviously very focused on mobile. We have a 563 00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:30.640 desktop team. They've worked more like making like webuiyes that 564 00:26:30.680 --> 00:26:33.240 you do more on thisktop through our run time and 565 00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:35.599 then they all share this beare code that upsets for 566 00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:37.720 a team does that enhances all the apps with all 567 00:26:37.720 --> 00:26:41.680 the functionality, and that's like just the best kind of 568 00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:43.960 app development I've ever seen. And that's that's really exciting 569 00:26:43.960 --> 00:26:45.759 to me. And it's the first time I've seen just 570 00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:50.680 like those two prongs just accelerating that way together as 571 00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:52.680 one team basically, and I think that's that's the true 572 00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:56.200 unlock and that's yeah. Again, it takes a little wrapping 573 00:26:56.200 --> 00:26:57.920 your head around, but it's like it's it's. 574 00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:02.240 Really yeah, it it feels a little bit to me 575 00:27:02.359 --> 00:27:05.359 almost Like so people who listen to the show know 576 00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:08.920 that I'm primarily actually a back end developer, and I'm 577 00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:11.519 typically working in Ruby on rails and not on a 578 00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:16.720 JavaScript back end. But in fact that's that's what I 579 00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:18.759 I just got a new job working doing that for 580 00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:24.119 price Picks. But what's interesting is with this is it 581 00:27:24.200 --> 00:27:28.119 almost feels like you're shipping it with a highly performant, 582 00:27:28.160 --> 00:27:29.559 localized back end. 583 00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:33.759 Yeah, exactly, And and and the cool thing is that 584 00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:36.680 then by shipping it together like you make these kind 585 00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:37.440 of APIs. 586 00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:38.960 But like obviously the latency. 587 00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:41.359 Between your applications kind of like and this you know 588 00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:43.880 threadie running to the worker and is basically non right, 589 00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:46.720 it's kind of like it's the same device. So so 590 00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:50.119 those kind of overheads disappear. It's very easy to integrate. 591 00:27:50.200 --> 00:27:53.200 And again you get this like integration of all kinds 592 00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:55.880 of native enhancements that you want to do for your apps, 593 00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:58.319 and it's all through JavaScript and scenes plus plus because 594 00:27:58.319 --> 00:28:04.519 that's what you write the bindings in. And yeah, it's like, uh, 595 00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:06.880 you know, I don't want to come up too many examples, 596 00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:09.720 but like for example before we so no, like it's 597 00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:11.359 a very simple thing we do in our app is 598 00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:14.039 like somebody shares a video and we want to generate 599 00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:16.480 a preview of that that video, and we have that 600 00:28:16.519 --> 00:28:18.079 in our desktop ap We have that in our mobile 601 00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:21.240 app and our mobile to use a reagnative library. 602 00:28:20.880 --> 00:28:24.279 And on desktop to use I think some video thing 603 00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:24.839 and whatever. 604 00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:28.519 And the problem we always had was like you know, 605 00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:30.160 they would be a bog where mobile did it a 606 00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:32.599 little bit differently than this stop because there was like 607 00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:35.920 differences in the libraries and the and the stacks, and 608 00:28:35.960 --> 00:28:37.680 it would always come back, and we'll always come back, 609 00:28:37.720 --> 00:28:39.079 and we'll always come back. And now we moved it 610 00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:42.200 just to like it's in the Bear worker. It's olympic. 611 00:28:42.279 --> 00:28:44.200 It just takes it in. It produces the same thing 612 00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:47.119 every time. It's exactly what we want. We tested on desktop, 613 00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:48.640 it's one hundred percent the same thing on mobile. 614 00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:49.880 We moved on. We never looked back. 615 00:28:51.160 --> 00:28:53.279 So it's not even like that that you know, you know, 616 00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:55.559 anything Reagnative is doing is wrong, or anything that that 617 00:28:55.640 --> 00:28:56.640 desktop development is. 618 00:28:56.640 --> 00:28:58.279 Doing wrong or backing development is doing wrong. 619 00:28:58.279 --> 00:29:01.039 It's just that difference is low you down and they 620 00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:03.039 don't need to and I think that's what's really exciting 621 00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:03.279 for me. 622 00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:05.359 Awesome. 623 00:29:05.839 --> 00:29:08.119 So I want to talk a little bit about the 624 00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:10.519 modules for a minute, because you did mention that you 625 00:29:10.599 --> 00:29:12.559 can for example, no JS. 626 00:29:12.599 --> 00:29:13.240 They use. 627 00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:18.039 V eight, but they've added other things on right because 628 00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:21.200 V eight was originally built for Chrome and so like 629 00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:23.799 you said, like file system for example, like V eight 630 00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:27.319 did not need that for your browser, and so you 631 00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:30.000 know you've got these other things bolted in. So you 632 00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:32.720 I'm assuming you just have modules for Bear that do 633 00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:33.599 some of those things. 634 00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:33.839 Then. 635 00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:38.400 Yeah, so it's pretty crazy because when you do this 636 00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:40.559 kind of like modulo development where you kind of split 637 00:29:40.599 --> 00:29:43.240 things onto these like piece meals, like you know, say, 638 00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:45.720 it's kind of like you can imagine like the tickets 639 00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:48.640 and your ticket ticket tracker, like magfs module, make mag 640 00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:52.440 module make it. Also, it's really easy to implement actually 641 00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:55.799 because it comes so scoped. So our team was originally 642 00:29:55.839 --> 00:29:58.519 just two people, now three people, and those two guys 643 00:29:58.599 --> 00:30:01.960 just went through all libraries notes and just re implement 644 00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:04.000 them as modules. So we actually have the entire note 645 00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:06.440 is standard library just as modules you can pick from 646 00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:10.160 the shelf and install. But again, you just the difference 647 00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:13.200 is that if if you make another module, so let's 648 00:30:13.200 --> 00:30:15.559 say you made a module that's like you know, read 649 00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:19.559 some file and converted. Instead of you asking the run 650 00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:22.160 time for FS, you just require FS and you install 651 00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:23.240 it like you do any other module. 652 00:30:23.240 --> 00:30:24.160 That's the only difference. 653 00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:29.279 So then like the standard library you use is not 654 00:30:29.319 --> 00:30:32.680 really standard library, but like you know, is basically just 655 00:30:32.759 --> 00:30:34.960 the union of what your dependency issues. 656 00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:38.920 So super flexible, super easy, and yeah, so we just 657 00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:39.680 bang through all of it. 658 00:30:39.759 --> 00:30:41.680 We have all the noe gs once, but then because 659 00:30:41.720 --> 00:30:43.839 it's like there's no cost to adding anything. There's no 660 00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:47.119 like committee where we have to discuss is this worth adding? 661 00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:48.480 Is this like going to make it to blow it? 662 00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:50.079 We just added because you can just choose not to 663 00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:52.279 use it. We also added all kinds of our stuff, 664 00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:55.039 so we have for example, like you know, database bindings 665 00:30:55.039 --> 00:30:56.960 to rocks top if you like that, we use that 666 00:30:57.000 --> 00:30:58.559 a lot boomed on. 667 00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:00.279 You can just import us anything else. 668 00:31:00.759 --> 00:31:02.720 I think we have some Bluetooth stuff now also, and 669 00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:04.759 all the things, like all kinds of things. I know 670 00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:11.920 we're working on some USB you know, interaction libraries also 671 00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:15.240 with USB sticks and stuff. So because there's no now 672 00:31:15.319 --> 00:31:18.160 that as soon as that cost goes away from maintainability 673 00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:22.240 and stuff, it's just basically all of a sudden, by doing nothing, 674 00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:24.079 you can do more, which I think is really. 675 00:31:24.359 --> 00:31:25.160 The key to everything. 676 00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:28.880 Yeah, I find I find that kind of interesting just 677 00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:32.799 from the standpoint of you know, like I said, I 678 00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:35.559 primarily do Ruby, but you also see it with Node 679 00:31:35.599 --> 00:31:37.279 and butN and some of these other things where yeah, 680 00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:40.400 they have a standard library. You know, whether they think 681 00:31:40.440 --> 00:31:42.680 about it that way or not, you do you get 682 00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:46.119 all this functionality in the language that they've added in 683 00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:50.559 to make it useful. But yeah, when you start really 684 00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:53.319 thinking about a standard library, especially when the standard library 685 00:31:53.319 --> 00:31:56.559 gets large, then that then it's okay, how does this 686 00:31:56.640 --> 00:32:00.160 interoperate with all eight zillion other things that the the 687 00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:06.119 system does? You know, does it add overhead to installation 688 00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:10.000 right to the app size? Does an ad overhead to 689 00:32:10.759 --> 00:32:14.240 the you know, running things and doing things, and do. 690 00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:15.920 I have to check this in order to run that? 691 00:32:16.079 --> 00:32:19.559 And so yeah, you know, just having those you know, 692 00:32:19.400 --> 00:32:22.599 you still do that with I'm sure with your modules. 693 00:32:22.599 --> 00:32:23.640 But the difference is is. 694 00:32:23.599 --> 00:32:27.160 That I'm only pulling in the handful of things that 695 00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:28.720 I need, and so those are the only things I 696 00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:31.119 really have to worry about. And then it keeps my 697 00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:34.160 app size small right when it bundles the app and 698 00:32:34.200 --> 00:32:38.319 all those things, And so I can imagine that, Yeah, 699 00:32:38.359 --> 00:32:43.000 that it definitely has its payoffs. And to me at least, 700 00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:45.200 the thing that stands out here is what we're discussing 701 00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:46.799 is not should you. 702 00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:49.240 Use bear all the time? 703 00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:53.039 It's hey, where does this really come in and brings 704 00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:57.240 a host of benefits and where maybe you still want 705 00:32:57.279 --> 00:33:01.759 to use node or bun or something else that kind 706 00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:04.039 of has the fully functional thing or in the case 707 00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:06.240 of like React Native, right, You're you're going to do 708 00:33:06.279 --> 00:33:08.839 a whole bunch of the UI stuff in React Native, 709 00:33:09.319 --> 00:33:11.440 and then you're going to hand off the things that 710 00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:14.680 make sense to to pair or to bear sorry, and 711 00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:17.759 then you're you're also probably going to be working through 712 00:33:17.799 --> 00:33:19.720 some of like the API calls and stuff that you 713 00:33:19.720 --> 00:33:22.839 typically do on a mobile app anyway, and probably keep 714 00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:24.799 all of that and React Native and so as it 715 00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:25.960 comes together, it makes sense. 716 00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:27.839 Yeah, exactly. 717 00:33:27.880 --> 00:33:30.480 And I think actually it's interesting to think about you 718 00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:33.680 said read Native. I think UI development it's almost like 719 00:33:33.720 --> 00:33:34.960 the complete opposite of what I said. 720 00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:36.279 I think in the UI development you want to. 721 00:33:36.279 --> 00:33:38.000 Have a lot of stuff being given to you because 722 00:33:38.200 --> 00:33:41.839 UI is really stateful by the time, like you know 723 00:33:41.960 --> 00:33:44.480 that spots and stuff. You want to not style those. 724 00:33:44.599 --> 00:33:46.720 You know, you want things to look based on the device. 725 00:33:46.759 --> 00:33:48.119 You want to have that give into you. It's a 726 00:33:48.119 --> 00:33:52.359 whole different thing. But this this model really really shines 727 00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:54.880 for like, like you said, classic bag and development. It 728 00:33:54.920 --> 00:33:56.720 shows that we do we don't We kind of like 729 00:33:57.000 --> 00:33:58.480 just want to get a bit of the definition of 730 00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:00.480 BAG in development just say, well, it's like a worker. 731 00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:06.079 It's like how you do your application logic always something 732 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:09.679 interesting about thinking about Chrome, Like you said, they're also 733 00:34:09.719 --> 00:34:11.840 I think because Chrome to some degree does the same thing, 734 00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:14.480 right because Chrome, sure ships will wear part to see 735 00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:16.480 in these things, but the ship it's pretty minimal. Still 736 00:34:16.519 --> 00:34:18.360 like there's some stuff in there, but it's pretty minimal. 737 00:34:18.400 --> 00:34:20.840 It's very like it doesn't change a lot. It's a 738 00:34:20.840 --> 00:34:21.840 big process to change it. 739 00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:24.239 When you. 740 00:34:27.400 --> 00:34:30.960 Update your browser, Chrome doesn't ask you, It just updates it. 741 00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:34.519 Because Chrome comes with it comes with a guarantee that 742 00:34:34.519 --> 00:34:37.679 that doesn't matter. They're not going to break things going forward. 743 00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:41.159 The reason they can do that is because of that contract. 744 00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:44.800 Ask anybody who has ever upgraded on no jazz per program, 745 00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:46.360 and again this is not your no jets at fault. 746 00:34:46.360 --> 00:34:49.360 It's just like something that happens for software. That's every 747 00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:52.199 time you upgrade a major is like incredibly anxious because 748 00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:56.119 you're like, you know, it's probably gonna break at that 749 00:34:56.199 --> 00:34:59.639 worst possible time because something that that API I used 750 00:34:59.639 --> 00:35:04.079 has change slightly. Right if you instead say, well, the 751 00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:07.239 run time's come with nothing, it's free jog wade because 752 00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:08.400 it's the same as the comium. 753 00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:09.440 It's never going to break anything. 754 00:35:10.039 --> 00:35:14.079 So we aggressively upgrade our bare run time every day 755 00:35:14.599 --> 00:35:16.400 just to get that latest V eight, get those latest 756 00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:18.880 things in because those guys are insane, they're shipping things 757 00:35:18.920 --> 00:35:21.079 all the time. So we are always on the latest, 758 00:35:21.159 --> 00:35:22.840 latest V eight because there's no cost to that. It's 759 00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:25.039 not going to break anything like those they have contract 760 00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:31.440 nailed down. That just means that you can again also 761 00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:33.440 just ship things fast to iterate fast, so you're not 762 00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:36.079 stuck in that upgrade anxiety. You can kind of park 763 00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:38.920 old code just as being old and just bump those majors. 764 00:35:38.920 --> 00:35:40.199 So if we want to, if we want to make 765 00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:42.760 a better design for fast systems like only support promises, 766 00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:46.760 we just do that. We don't think about it. Uh 767 00:35:46.840 --> 00:35:48.920 and and just and just finally, like you said there, Yeah, 768 00:35:48.920 --> 00:35:50.760 I'm a big you know again, big fan of no js, 769 00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:52.559 A right tons of no js. I think no JAZ 770 00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:55.199 has a big place in the world always. I haven't 771 00:35:55.239 --> 00:35:57.639 used much of JR ones because I'm I'm a classic person, 772 00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:03.039 but I do think, like even saying that, I think 773 00:36:03.119 --> 00:36:04.360 the entire in. 774 00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:05.239 My opinion. 775 00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:09.239 Back in development can't go towards this like small core model. 776 00:36:09.239 --> 00:36:10.800 I think that is the future. It's a little bit 777 00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:13.719 harder to market it's harder to talk about, but the 778 00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:17.320 benefits just greatly outweigh the disciplines. 779 00:36:18.880 --> 00:36:19.079 Right. 780 00:36:19.880 --> 00:36:23.719 So you we've kind of talked about mobile, and I 781 00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:26.719 think that back end story is pretty well understood because 782 00:36:27.800 --> 00:36:29.679 you know, if you're writing note or something else for 783 00:36:29.719 --> 00:36:33.400 your back end, you know that this can sit in there, 784 00:36:33.840 --> 00:36:38.480 next to it, or in place of it. My question 785 00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:41.000 is you also mentioned desktop, So what does this look 786 00:36:41.079 --> 00:36:41.840 like on the desktop. 787 00:36:43.159 --> 00:36:45.239 So, so the cool thing is it's the code always 788 00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:47.039 looks the same because it's just Bear code we have 789 00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:49.519 on desktop. We have and if you go to our 790 00:36:49.559 --> 00:36:54.800 website bearpairs dot com, we have an installable CLI. That 791 00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:58.880 installable c cli is actually just our compilation of bears 792 00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:02.000 is just like a basically kind of like as minimum 793 00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:03.440 of a bill of v age you can get with 794 00:37:03.559 --> 00:37:04.440 this module system. 795 00:37:04.840 --> 00:37:05.719 So that's the Bear thing. 796 00:37:06.199 --> 00:37:08.960 And Bear is b A R E like naked, not 797 00:37:09.159 --> 00:37:10.079 b E a R like. 798 00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:12.280 Somebody called it the bear naked one time. 799 00:37:12.280 --> 00:37:12.840 I kind of like that. 800 00:37:17.320 --> 00:37:24.559 So, and our logo is a bear like a ror 801 00:37:24.679 --> 00:37:26.679 or bear. Just to make everything more confusing, we like 802 00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:31.559 we like to to be smart ass. So you stall 803 00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:33.679 that one again, you just you can just install it 804 00:37:33.679 --> 00:37:35.360 every day, get the neatest one because nothing will ever 805 00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:40.320 break and it's really good, really powerful. And the cool 806 00:37:40.360 --> 00:37:42.599 thing is then if when you want to like package 807 00:37:42.599 --> 00:37:46.119 your app, because this is all self contained like that, 808 00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:50.159 you can you can even do stuff like compile it, 809 00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:53.159 compile this into a single binary because when there's no 810 00:37:53.159 --> 00:37:55.079 standard library and there's nothing in that. 811 00:37:55.079 --> 00:37:55.760 Becomes really easy. 812 00:37:55.760 --> 00:37:57.519 If we have some examples and that on the website 813 00:37:57.920 --> 00:38:00.400 for how to to compile it yourself. Just get a 814 00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:02.079 binary art like you would go so you can have 815 00:38:02.119 --> 00:38:06.760 your entire program and one thing, or you can embed 816 00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:08.800 it in other things. For our peer to peer run 817 00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:12.599 time pair, we actually ship our version of pair which 818 00:38:12.679 --> 00:38:14.880 is just the same thing just embedded into another thing, 819 00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:16.840 because you don't want to ship like many binaries that 820 00:38:16.840 --> 00:38:20.400 it's really hard, and that just becomes really easy, and 821 00:38:20.440 --> 00:38:23.679 you can even do things like so it's like it's minimal. 822 00:38:23.719 --> 00:38:25.519 It doesn't support typescript because of minimal, but you can 823 00:38:25.559 --> 00:38:28.119 easily just go in and make your own distribution that 824 00:38:28.199 --> 00:38:30.840 just supports typescript by adding that in into the into 825 00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:35.679 the into the thing. So it's really really flexible and 826 00:38:36.239 --> 00:38:37.679 it sounds really good, and it sounds too good. 827 00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:38.159 To be true. 828 00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:40.440 The only reason is too good. Only reason that that 829 00:38:40.519 --> 00:38:42.159 is the case is because it does nothing. So it's 830 00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:44.440 very to support all the things when we do nothing, 831 00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:48.039 it's very hard to do anything, do anything. Just all 832 00:38:48.079 --> 00:38:50.480 at least to do is support those like what you're loading, 833 00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:52.559 which is again is a hard problem, but at least 834 00:38:52.599 --> 00:38:55.800 it's like much easier than doing all kinds. 835 00:38:55.639 --> 00:38:59.800 Of Right, So if if I were to I guess 836 00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:03.000 the question I'm wondering about, because yeah, it sounds like 837 00:39:03.039 --> 00:39:05.440 you distribute it mostly the same way. Right, you embed 838 00:39:05.480 --> 00:39:08.400 the run time in whatever it is you're shipping, and 839 00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:09.800 then it right. 840 00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:13.400 It just runs, it does what it does, or it does. 841 00:39:13.239 --> 00:39:15.480 What you loaded in on a module and then called 842 00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:20.840 so on a desktop app, what what kind of UIs 843 00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:21.920 can people put on it? 844 00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:25.599 Because sure, I mean yeah, so. 845 00:39:25.960 --> 00:39:27.639 On a desktop ap if you want. It's kind of 846 00:39:27.679 --> 00:39:29.920 like the same story on desktop in general. As like 847 00:39:29.960 --> 00:39:31.559 something like no, it's like it's not it's not a 848 00:39:31.639 --> 00:39:33.599 r I framework. You can we actually have a native 849 00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:36.599 EI framework we build that just binds to like native UI, 850 00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:38.920 but our just to do an experiment. It's not something 851 00:39:38.920 --> 00:39:40.800 people should do just to see. Can you actually make 852 00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:47.440 adiplication that just would load things, so you would if 853 00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:49.079 you wanted to make like an actual desktop app, you 854 00:39:49.079 --> 00:39:52.039 would probably use our Pair framework for making Peter peer 855 00:39:52.039 --> 00:39:53.880 apps because that's actually what it does. It actually just 856 00:39:53.880 --> 00:39:59.559 embeds bear as UI libraries and uses bare to load. 857 00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:00.920 Peter Pier things. But you can do whatever you want. 858 00:40:02.119 --> 00:40:04.639 It's basically similar in a flow to like making an 859 00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:06.719 electron app if if you know that, but you can 860 00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:09.239 also make native apps with that. You can also do 861 00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:11.000 the same tricks. I don't know if our tooling works 862 00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:13.159 with yet, but that's definitely on our roadmap to do 863 00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:16.519 like a desktop rag native app that uses Bair. Also, 864 00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:18.480 like we wanted to, it's very easy to invest if 865 00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:20.760 we want to embed it everywhere. Like I said, we 866 00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:24.000 launched it last week, right, so so we have a 867 00:40:24.039 --> 00:40:27.239 long road map. But again by doing very little, we 868 00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:28.519 have a lot of time to do a lot of 869 00:40:28.519 --> 00:40:31.199 other stuff. And like this project is moving crazy fast 870 00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:33.000 every day, so it's super cool. 871 00:40:34.440 --> 00:40:39.000 Right So I can install Pair and it has UI 872 00:40:39.079 --> 00:40:41.199 libraries that I can use that probably what do they 873 00:40:41.239 --> 00:40:42.519 bind into native? 874 00:40:44.519 --> 00:40:47.159 They do so you can bin into anything if you 875 00:40:47.199 --> 00:40:49.719 wanted to. For modules, the modules we have right now 876 00:40:49.800 --> 00:40:52.719 just because that's easy, Like, so it's kind of like 877 00:40:52.719 --> 00:40:53.960 an electron like experience. 878 00:40:54.079 --> 00:40:56.239 I got you. So I can bind to Nome or Katie. 879 00:40:56.719 --> 00:40:58.159 For Linux, I can bind too. 880 00:40:58.440 --> 00:41:03.519 I don't think there is binding for mac os exactly, 881 00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:05.960 and like. 882 00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:08.039 Probably a lot of those bindings have to be made 883 00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:10.199 for Bear like I like you have to make like Gluco. 884 00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:11.280 That's something we're working on. 885 00:41:11.360 --> 00:41:14.639 But like the program myself supports that we have something 886 00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:17.480 that the loads like just an electronic review because that's 887 00:41:17.559 --> 00:41:18.480 easy and that's what. 888 00:41:18.880 --> 00:41:22.039 Okay, that makes sense, and so then it plays the 889 00:41:22.119 --> 00:41:25.000 role of the back end for the electron exactly happen 890 00:41:25.119 --> 00:41:25.880 kind of the same way. 891 00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:27.000 That makes sense exactly. 892 00:41:27.679 --> 00:41:30.199 But we want to take this to the full scale, 893 00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:33.960 like you know, either write those bindings ourselves or the 894 00:41:33.960 --> 00:41:36.760 community can do it. But the foundations is there for now, 895 00:41:36.800 --> 00:41:41.000 and I think, uh, like I said in the beginning, 896 00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:43.400 I think for me, like the most exciting future for 897 00:41:43.639 --> 00:41:46.360 JavaScript in general is like actually that it doesn't really 898 00:41:46.440 --> 00:41:48.400 run the UI anymore, but it just runs all. 899 00:41:48.280 --> 00:41:48.719 The bag ends. 900 00:41:48.760 --> 00:41:53.119 Because I think that's for JavaScript ironically really shines. It's 901 00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:55.119 also good for front end, but it's especially good for. 902 00:41:55.000 --> 00:42:00.199 BEG yeah, it kind of started out doing the front 903 00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:04.719 end work, but it was almost a utility to make 904 00:42:04.760 --> 00:42:07.840 the front end do what you wanted. And so yeah, 905 00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:09.400 I can kind of see that and I can definitely 906 00:42:09.400 --> 00:42:14.280 see where it shines on the back end. So so 907 00:42:14.280 --> 00:42:16.280 so what's next for for bear. 908 00:42:18.360 --> 00:42:20.840 Just honestly, just let me just turn on the light 909 00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:23.239 you because see it gets come and the mind. 910 00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:30.800 And gets. 911 00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:31.880 So next for us is it's actually really simple because 912 00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:34.079 we have the the API now right. 913 00:42:33.960 --> 00:42:34.920 It is the module system. 914 00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:37.679 So for us, every time we shift something, we're just 915 00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:42.360 making it faster and better, making more modules. For example, 916 00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:45.920 I think a really cool success. Sorry to how to 917 00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:48.360 under stand this stuff is like this is a little 918 00:42:48.360 --> 00:42:50.840 bit nerdy maybe, but like when you write things like 919 00:42:50.960 --> 00:42:53.639 native add ons in with V eight and we use 920 00:42:53.880 --> 00:42:56.000 VA mostly. Again, we can run on any engine, but 921 00:42:56.039 --> 00:42:57.480 we'd like to use the eight because it's just a 922 00:42:57.480 --> 00:43:01.800 good engine. For sample, if you wanted to do some cryptography, 923 00:43:01.880 --> 00:43:05.079 you usually make bindings for a cryptolibrary because you don't 924 00:43:05.079 --> 00:43:08.280 want to do that JavaScript you call. Those people don't 925 00:43:08.280 --> 00:43:11.159 realize that calling from JavaScript normally in these engines into 926 00:43:11.199 --> 00:43:13.360 like a native library has a cost, Like there's a 927 00:43:13.360 --> 00:43:16.000 transaction cost here because it has to Google between engines, 928 00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:21.800 and that cost means that it's actually harder to program 929 00:43:21.880 --> 00:43:23.639 for it, because it means that native code you call 930 00:43:23.719 --> 00:43:25.239 has to do more stuff to be worth it. 931 00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:27.480 So if like you can imagine if you just made a. 932 00:43:27.440 --> 00:43:31.000 C program that just added two numbers, if that cost 933 00:43:31.400 --> 00:43:33.119 is high, then it's not worth it, and then you're like, 934 00:43:33.159 --> 00:43:36.079 I need to do more. I don't like those limitations 935 00:43:36.119 --> 00:43:39.039 because it messes with how you think about programming. It's 936 00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:45.800 like you have like premature opianizations stuff. The engine that 937 00:43:45.880 --> 00:43:49.400 Google makes made a really cool solution for this called 938 00:43:49.639 --> 00:43:51.760 fast calls, which is like they have this API where 939 00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:55.800 you can do some native stuff and. 940 00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:57.599 Then you can actually make this basically free. That was 941 00:43:57.679 --> 00:43:58.639 very recently added. 942 00:43:59.320 --> 00:44:03.920 But because Bear does nothing else except this, the guys 943 00:44:03.960 --> 00:44:06.239 just decided to let's just write buying for this next 944 00:44:06.239 --> 00:44:09.280 post that through the module system, because again it's like 945 00:44:09.320 --> 00:44:11.159 super flexible, you can do it. And we just added 946 00:44:11.199 --> 00:44:14.679 that and that was all the in our app key, 947 00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:16.639 which is like using a bunch of these calls to 948 00:44:16.639 --> 00:44:19.280 do ciography because Pewter pew uses a lot of photography, 949 00:44:19.920 --> 00:44:21.679 Like all those calls became I think it was like 950 00:44:21.719 --> 00:44:24.039 the three X faster, but just like you know, shipping 951 00:44:24.039 --> 00:44:26.880 that one pathing, like no code changed, right, just like 952 00:44:27.519 --> 00:44:30.039 because the guys can just focus on this engine part. 953 00:44:30.519 --> 00:44:33.000 Every time you make the engine faster, everything becomes faster. 954 00:44:33.639 --> 00:44:36.800 So so for us, it's just about iterating even more 955 00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:39.159 and more of that stuff, like pushing all those bits 956 00:44:39.159 --> 00:44:41.519 out of these engines to make everything as fast as possible, 957 00:44:41.559 --> 00:44:44.360 stay on the very late as eights and then just 958 00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:48.079 like like I said before, expanding the module scope so 959 00:44:48.119 --> 00:44:50.000 we have more and more modules. We want to basically 960 00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:53.400 bind to everything we want to get like bindings for 961 00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:56.320 for like all those like cool eye libraryes you just mentioned. 962 00:44:56.360 --> 00:44:58.079 That's the cool project. We want to get that done 963 00:44:58.679 --> 00:45:01.360 and just help people build, then help people expand, and 964 00:45:01.400 --> 00:45:05.519 also at the same time like uh yeah, just make 965 00:45:05.559 --> 00:45:08.039 it run. And then we're very very serious abound actually 966 00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:09.960 deploying the stuff like two light bulbs and stuff in 967 00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:12.239 the future. I think that's like you know, we do 968 00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:15.039 peer to peer and peter peer means like connecting things directly. 969 00:45:15.159 --> 00:45:17.440 If you think about like smart homes and stuff like that. 970 00:45:17.320 --> 00:45:20.119 That's where that stuff is brilliant because you don't want 971 00:45:20.159 --> 00:45:22.960 to send all the data to Google or whatever, so 972 00:45:23.079 --> 00:45:25.719 running out and all your devices Peter peer stack. That's 973 00:45:25.840 --> 00:45:28.960 like the perfect worldface. So so we're pushing in all 974 00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:33.079 consideraction on this. But it's just really easy because it's 975 00:45:33.119 --> 00:45:34.280 it's so coop. 976 00:45:34.519 --> 00:45:41.519 So it's awesome, Right, I had another question, but I 977 00:45:41.559 --> 00:45:44.480 get so tied into what what do you do with this? 978 00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:46.519 I forgot where it was going with it. 979 00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:50.920 You said, hey, you can pull in these modules typically 980 00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:52.880 have to do like an NPM install in order to 981 00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:55.440 get those things. And you said that you can use 982 00:45:55.559 --> 00:45:58.960 NPM to get some of them, but for sort of 983 00:45:58.960 --> 00:46:04.119 the fundamental modules that kind of do the basic stuff, 984 00:46:04.159 --> 00:46:08.159 like the node level stuff, right, the file system, you know, 985 00:46:08.800 --> 00:46:11.880 whatever other things it has to do. How do those 986 00:46:11.920 --> 00:46:13.760 come in? Do you have a separate app store or 987 00:46:13.840 --> 00:46:16.519 they just you pull them in via NPM? Is there 988 00:46:16.519 --> 00:46:17.440 some other way or what? 989 00:46:18.440 --> 00:46:21.719 So, because we just so our module system again, I 990 00:46:21.719 --> 00:46:23.480 don't want to get tunerated, but our module system just 991 00:46:23.480 --> 00:46:27.880 follows the same contracts as the no modules. Because there's 992 00:46:27.880 --> 00:46:30.960 so many no modules, right, it's like amazing. It's I 993 00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:32.440 don't know if it is the biggest, but at least 994 00:46:32.440 --> 00:46:35.360 it's one of the biggest ecosystems and modules. So we decided, 995 00:46:35.400 --> 00:46:40.559 like why why we relivent that it's perfect or at 996 00:46:40.599 --> 00:46:43.119 least like the things that are not perfect. It's like Liverpool, 997 00:46:43.800 --> 00:46:45.679 So we just replemented the same thing, which means that 998 00:46:46.760 --> 00:46:49.599 if you install something from an MPM it normally works. 999 00:46:49.639 --> 00:46:51.280 The only real time it doesn't work. 1000 00:46:51.199 --> 00:46:54.039 Is if it's like if that module is obviously requiring 1001 00:46:54.039 --> 00:46:54.880 like the standard. 1002 00:46:54.599 --> 00:46:58.039 Library like FS. But then you can we have this 1003 00:46:58.079 --> 00:46:58.599 on our website. 1004 00:46:58.639 --> 00:47:02.280 You can use a trick to have MPM map FS 1005 00:47:02.519 --> 00:47:05.159 to our FS which is compatible on APIs right now, 1006 00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:08.760 and then you can make things work. So our website 1007 00:47:08.840 --> 00:47:15.000 has a list of all of our mirrored packages of 1008 00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:17.119 standard libraries like you know f S and Node means 1009 00:47:17.159 --> 00:47:19.760 disn't bear, but it's all just MPM modules. You just 1010 00:47:19.760 --> 00:47:22.119 install them from MPM. You would add them to your 1011 00:47:22.119 --> 00:47:25.719 package Jason. And then I think a really cool thing 1012 00:47:26.360 --> 00:47:29.920 is that I think this is an AGMAS standard, but 1013 00:47:29.960 --> 00:47:31.840 I'm not sure, but like the important map stuff in 1014 00:47:31.880 --> 00:47:34.320 Node recently in package Jason, where you can kind of 1015 00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:37.039 like describe I think this was added for Barser's originally, 1016 00:47:37.079 --> 00:47:39.639 so we can say in this environment, load this packages 1017 00:47:39.679 --> 00:47:43.440 and stuff like that that makes engineering for multiple run 1018 00:47:43.480 --> 00:47:47.159 times really easy with NPM. And also note just so 1019 00:47:47.199 --> 00:47:50.760 you can really easily describe in bear when loading this 1020 00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:53.960 thing from bear load bear fs, but in nodeload fs, 1021 00:47:53.960 --> 00:47:57.760 and then your program just becomes very runtime neutral, which 1022 00:47:57.800 --> 00:47:59.719 is at least like the work on node end bear, 1023 00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:05.119 which is like how you want to run things. So 1024 00:48:05.119 --> 00:48:08.400 so yeah, so we just reuse all the existing infrastructure 1025 00:48:08.440 --> 00:48:10.239 for that, because why not, it's awesome. 1026 00:48:10.280 --> 00:48:11.000 There's a lot of it. 1027 00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:13.960 Right, So if I want to use like the f 1028 00:48:14.039 --> 00:48:17.320 S module, like just NPM install what bear fs, bear 1029 00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:18.960 dash fs or something like that. 1030 00:48:19.159 --> 00:48:23.519 Yeah, exactly exactly that, and then that's just like an 1031 00:48:23.559 --> 00:48:25.880 open source library and like you know, it aims to 1032 00:48:25.880 --> 00:48:28.159 be under pretend compared I'm sure there's slight differences here 1033 00:48:28.159 --> 00:48:32.000 and there, but like and if you want to use 1034 00:48:32.039 --> 00:48:34.199 like streams, we have the streams in limitation if you 1035 00:48:34.239 --> 00:48:36.639 want to use et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, it's 1036 00:48:36.760 --> 00:48:38.719 like again it's like, you know, there's a little hurdle 1037 00:48:38.800 --> 00:48:41.400 that that's the cost of like doing like small core 1038 00:48:41.440 --> 00:48:43.800 development like you have as the first step, and this 1039 00:48:43.960 --> 00:48:45.480 is why people don't do it, because it's harder to 1040 00:48:45.519 --> 00:48:48.320 market you have like that marketing piece that's first step 1041 00:48:48.400 --> 00:48:51.920 is annoying, but that's how you get the flexibility. And 1042 00:48:51.960 --> 00:48:53.639 we don't care about marketing. We just make this because 1043 00:48:53.639 --> 00:48:58.119 it's really cool. So so yeah, so that's how we 1044 00:48:58.159 --> 00:48:59.679 do it. And the cool thing is then if you 1045 00:48:59.679 --> 00:49:01.840 want to install instead of some of the noticest of 1046 00:49:01.840 --> 00:49:04.000 if you wanted to install a cool puture peer module, 1047 00:49:04.360 --> 00:49:06.280 it's the same flow. So you learn this flow once 1048 00:49:06.679 --> 00:49:08.719 and that's how you do everything. So how do you 1049 00:49:08.760 --> 00:49:10.599 get like puter peer modules? How do you get it's 1050 00:49:10.639 --> 00:49:13.239 per modules? How do you get whatever modules do you want? 1051 00:49:15.320 --> 00:49:16.639 Awesome? All right, so. 1052 00:49:20.280 --> 00:49:22.639 Yeah, I guess the last question I have before we 1053 00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:26.079 do picks is if people want to learn more or 1054 00:49:26.239 --> 00:49:28.559 they want to connect with you, or I mean maybe 1055 00:49:28.559 --> 00:49:31.840 there's somebody out there who's like this sounds really great, 1056 00:49:32.199 --> 00:49:33.760 sounds like you know what you're doing. I want to 1057 00:49:33.840 --> 00:49:36.119 hire a whole punch to make my peer to peer 1058 00:49:36.159 --> 00:49:37.760 app and I'm not going to do it myself. 1059 00:49:38.280 --> 00:49:40.280 How do people get connected with you? For any ear 1060 00:49:40.320 --> 00:49:40.920 and all of that? 1061 00:49:41.719 --> 00:49:44.480 So if you go to the website, bear the pair 1062 00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:46.000 of the com and I think maybe we can share 1063 00:49:46.079 --> 00:49:48.440 that on the on the podcast and as a link. 1064 00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:52.920 People don't hear my mumbling. But there's all kinds of 1065 00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:55.800 contacts then there we we do we have so all 1066 00:49:56.039 --> 00:49:59.880 so it's all open source misid licensing. We do everything 1067 00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:03.480 they open on this in general. We have our chat 1068 00:50:03.559 --> 00:50:07.639 up key where we do all our chats about implementing 1069 00:50:07.679 --> 00:50:10.440 Bear and open their's links on the on the website 1070 00:50:10.480 --> 00:50:12.199 to join those. You can actually just follow it in 1071 00:50:12.239 --> 00:50:14.760 real time. I don't think you should hire us to 1072 00:50:14.760 --> 00:50:16.599 make that. I think we should hire people to work 1073 00:50:16.639 --> 00:50:20.320 on Bear so and on Peter Peers. Maybe that's going 1074 00:50:20.360 --> 00:50:22.559 into your pick session, but like, please reach out if 1075 00:50:22.599 --> 00:50:24.519 you're interested in working with this stuff. That's a very 1076 00:50:24.559 --> 00:50:29.239 cool ecosystem. That's very viprant stuff going on. But yeah, 1077 00:50:29.400 --> 00:50:32.239 join all the things there. We have a website there. 1078 00:50:32.599 --> 00:50:35.119 The documentation is very light because it doesn't do much. 1079 00:50:35.599 --> 00:50:38.000 We have a very active help and a small team. 1080 00:50:38.199 --> 00:50:39.960 Cool thing about having a small team is that when 1081 00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:42.599 you talk to somebody, it's like the pizza problem. You 1082 00:50:42.599 --> 00:50:44.159 you can eat a pizza and the entire team can 1083 00:50:44.199 --> 00:50:48.639 be in the room. So so when you talk to somebody, 1084 00:50:48.639 --> 00:50:51.440 they probably know everything about it. 1085 00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:56.079 Awesome, all right, Well I'm going to push us into picks. Now, 1086 00:50:56.199 --> 00:50:58.320 if you not listen to the show, Picks is just 1087 00:50:58.360 --> 00:51:02.079 shout out about stuff we like. I think most of 1088 00:51:02.119 --> 00:51:05.880 the time it's not technology related, but that doesn't keep 1089 00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:08.360 us from picking technology stuff when we like it. So 1090 00:51:09.480 --> 00:51:12.000 I'm going to jump in and do a handful of 1091 00:51:12.039 --> 00:51:16.440 picks here. My first pick is almost always a board game. 1092 00:51:17.800 --> 00:51:20.039 And my friends and I last week we played a 1093 00:51:20.079 --> 00:51:24.239 game called Colt Express and what it is is it 1094 00:51:24.280 --> 00:51:28.800 actually has a train with cars that it's set up 1095 00:51:29.679 --> 00:51:32.559 so it's like a three D train that sits on 1096 00:51:32.599 --> 00:51:37.079 the table, and so you've got the locomotive and then 1097 00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:41.480 you've got however many players there are basically put that 1098 00:51:41.559 --> 00:51:44.800 many cars on the train. And then there's loot on 1099 00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:47.119 the train, right, so there are little gems, there are 1100 00:51:47.119 --> 00:51:50.800 bags of money, and there's a lock box in the locomotive, 1101 00:51:50.800 --> 00:51:51.199 which is. 1102 00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:52.119 Where the sheriff starts. 1103 00:51:52.920 --> 00:51:55.559 And then what you do is you can move from 1104 00:51:55.719 --> 00:51:59.159 the car you're into the roof. You can move laterally 1105 00:51:59.400 --> 00:52:05.960 from one car to another. You can punch another player 1106 00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:10.400 because all the players are robbers train rubbers. You can 1107 00:52:10.400 --> 00:52:13.039 punch another player and that makes them drop loot, or 1108 00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:15.760 you can shoot another player, and what when you shoot them, 1109 00:52:15.800 --> 00:52:18.199 you add a bullet card to their deck of cards, 1110 00:52:18.760 --> 00:52:22.719 And bullet cards are basically blanks, right, so they don't 1111 00:52:22.760 --> 00:52:25.239 have an action associated with them. And when you take 1112 00:52:25.280 --> 00:52:27.519 any of the other actions, you've played the card. And 1113 00:52:27.559 --> 00:52:29.480 so when you draw a hand, if you've been shot 1114 00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:31.239 a lot and you get a whole bunch of bullets, 1115 00:52:31.400 --> 00:52:33.599 you just don't have as many options, and so you 1116 00:52:33.639 --> 00:52:35.960 may wind up spending one of your actions to draw 1117 00:52:36.039 --> 00:52:37.840 more cards to try and get the card you want. 1118 00:52:39.159 --> 00:52:41.639 And the way it works is you go around the 1119 00:52:41.639 --> 00:52:45.400 circle and everybody plays a card and there are different 1120 00:52:46.079 --> 00:52:49.199 sequences that you can play that maybe they allow you 1121 00:52:49.280 --> 00:52:51.880 to play two cards in a row instead of just one, 1122 00:52:52.639 --> 00:52:55.199 or you know, they allow you to place it face 1123 00:52:55.280 --> 00:52:57.880 down instead of face up, right, because if everyone's playing 1124 00:52:57.920 --> 00:53:02.199 face up, you can sort of plan for what's coming, right. 1125 00:53:02.280 --> 00:53:03.079 It's like, Okay, I. 1126 00:53:03.039 --> 00:53:04.639 Know they're gonna move here, so i'm gonna move there 1127 00:53:04.679 --> 00:53:07.039 and I'm gonna punch them kind of thing. 1128 00:53:07.159 --> 00:53:07.360 Right. 1129 00:53:08.039 --> 00:53:11.239 So, but if you're playing face down, right, then you 1130 00:53:11.239 --> 00:53:14.239 have an advantage because it's it's anonymous. Of course, everybody 1131 00:53:14.239 --> 00:53:17.400 else plays face down anyway, So then what you do 1132 00:53:17.519 --> 00:53:22.800 is once everybody's played for the whole round. So there's 1133 00:53:22.880 --> 00:53:25.639 usually you go around the circle like three or four times, 1134 00:53:26.800 --> 00:53:28.760 then you flip them over and you just play it out. 1135 00:53:28.920 --> 00:53:31.119 So you know, you play my card and I move, 1136 00:53:31.159 --> 00:53:32.960 You play his card and he shoots, you play his 1137 00:53:33.039 --> 00:53:35.920 card and right, and so anyway, it's a lot of 1138 00:53:35.960 --> 00:53:39.639 fun board game. Geek waits it at one point eight three. 1139 00:53:41.400 --> 00:53:44.480 I tell people that two is about as complicated as 1140 00:53:44.519 --> 00:53:47.840 the casual gamers really get, sometimes a little bit more, 1141 00:53:49.880 --> 00:53:52.719 but two is about where it has enough complexity to 1142 00:53:52.760 --> 00:53:57.039 make it fun, but it's not so complex that that 1143 00:53:57.119 --> 00:53:59.719 the people who aren't avid gamers are not gonna want 1144 00:53:59.719 --> 00:54:03.360 to play it. So anyway, so this was a one 1145 00:54:03.400 --> 00:54:08.840 point eighty three so it's reasonably simple game. But yeah, oh, also, 1146 00:54:09.000 --> 00:54:11.719 the each player has a character that they're playing, and 1147 00:54:11.760 --> 00:54:16.039 those characters have special abilities. Right, So the one I played, 1148 00:54:16.039 --> 00:54:18.119 when you punch somebody and make them drop loot, you 1149 00:54:18.159 --> 00:54:20.360 can catch it, right. 1150 00:54:20.440 --> 00:54:22.760 You don't have to spend an action to pick it up, 1151 00:54:23.000 --> 00:54:24.960 you know, on your next for your next move. 1152 00:54:26.400 --> 00:54:30.039 Other people like one guy had such a powerful shot 1153 00:54:30.119 --> 00:54:33.440 that it moved a person back a train car or 1154 00:54:33.519 --> 00:54:34.559 I mean all kinds of stuff. 1155 00:54:34.599 --> 00:54:37.679 So anyway, lots of fun. My buddy had the. 1156 00:54:39.199 --> 00:54:41.599 What was it, like a super box or something, and 1157 00:54:41.639 --> 00:54:44.320 so I had two expansions in it, and the expansions 1158 00:54:44.360 --> 00:54:47.039 allow you to play this is typically two to six players. 1159 00:54:47.400 --> 00:54:50.039 His expansion would allow you to play up to nine players. 1160 00:54:50.599 --> 00:54:55.719 So anyway, way, fun game. Highly highly recommend it. It 1161 00:54:55.760 --> 00:54:57.719 came out in twenty fourteen, so it's not a new 1162 00:54:57.800 --> 00:55:01.679 game by any means. But anyway, really really enjoyed that. 1163 00:55:05.159 --> 00:55:10.639 As far as other picks go. Finished in nineteen twenty three, 1164 00:55:11.119 --> 00:55:15.920 it's the Yellowstone spin off. I really liked Yellowstone, so 1165 00:55:15.960 --> 00:55:18.320 I watched eighteen eighty three, which was the first spin off, 1166 00:55:18.360 --> 00:55:21.320 right kind of the origin story of the family, I 1167 00:55:21.360 --> 00:55:21.840 have to say. 1168 00:55:21.880 --> 00:55:23.519 And it was Tim McGraw and Faith Hill. 1169 00:55:23.480 --> 00:55:26.000 Where the parents of that one, which you know, I 1170 00:55:26.039 --> 00:55:28.440 grew up listening to country music. So I enjoyed that too. 1171 00:55:29.719 --> 00:55:33.679 Eighteen eighty three was terrific. E twenty three was even better, 1172 00:55:35.599 --> 00:55:38.159 and they're both better than Yellowstone. And I really really 1173 00:55:38.199 --> 00:55:42.079 really like Yellowstone. So if you're looking for something to watch, 1174 00:55:42.159 --> 00:55:44.400 some Paramount Plus and so I'm going to pick that. 1175 00:55:45.519 --> 00:55:47.559 Speaking of Paramount Plus, one other thing I just figured 1176 00:55:47.599 --> 00:55:50.960 out is that I didn't realize that Champions League in 1177 00:55:50.960 --> 00:55:55.119 Europe was running, and so then I was asking questions 1178 00:55:55.199 --> 00:55:57.960 like how do I watch it? And apparently those are 1179 00:55:58.000 --> 00:56:01.280 on Paramount Plus in the US. I'm gonna go watch 1180 00:56:01.320 --> 00:56:04.039 the finals whenever those are on. 1181 00:56:04.239 --> 00:56:04.800 And then. 1182 00:56:06.280 --> 00:56:10.280 They also carry Serie A soccer from Italy, so I'm 1183 00:56:10.320 --> 00:56:11.280 excited about that too. 1184 00:56:11.480 --> 00:56:15.679 So I think. 1185 00:56:15.760 --> 00:56:19.480 That's mostly all I've got, So Matthias, why don't you 1186 00:56:19.519 --> 00:56:20.519 go ahead and give us some picks? 1187 00:56:21.199 --> 00:56:21.440 Cool? 1188 00:56:21.559 --> 00:56:23.519 I was actually looking at that Yellowstone show because I 1189 00:56:23.599 --> 00:56:25.639 haven't I don't get a lot of time to watch 1190 00:56:25.840 --> 00:56:28.079 shows anymore, but I thought that one and I was like, 1191 00:56:28.239 --> 00:56:28.920 that's interesting. 1192 00:56:31.440 --> 00:56:33.440 Kind of what kind of genre is that? Actually? Is 1193 00:56:33.480 --> 00:56:34.199 that like sci fi? 1194 00:56:34.400 --> 00:56:38.079 Or it's a Western? But it's a modern Western. So 1195 00:56:39.119 --> 00:56:44.519 the premise of the show is there's there's a ranch 1196 00:56:44.639 --> 00:56:48.239 that takes up like half of Paradise Valley in Montana, 1197 00:56:49.079 --> 00:56:51.320 and it's all owned by one family and it's been 1198 00:56:51.320 --> 00:56:57.800 owned for like one hundred and something years, and there 1199 00:56:57.800 --> 00:56:59.440 are all these people who are trying to get a 1200 00:56:59.440 --> 00:57:03.360 piece of it right, so that the Native American tribe 1201 00:57:03.400 --> 00:57:06.800 that's there right, they do all this stuff to like 1202 00:57:07.760 --> 00:57:12.239 steal cattle in a way that's you know, semi legal 1203 00:57:13.159 --> 00:57:19.360 from the ranch. There's they're like developers that want to 1204 00:57:19.360 --> 00:57:26.119 build stuff and that affects the ranch. At one point, 1205 00:57:26.199 --> 00:57:29.920 eminent domain is claimed and so they actually take some 1206 00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:32.679 of the land to build an airport, right, and so 1207 00:57:32.719 --> 00:57:36.119 they're trying to fight back to keep their ranch. And 1208 00:57:36.199 --> 00:57:39.199 so I'll warn you it does get a little bit violent. 1209 00:57:39.519 --> 00:57:44.920 Sometimes there's definitely language, there's a little bit of nudity. 1210 00:57:45.480 --> 00:57:47.599 If none of that's going to bother you or turn 1211 00:57:47.679 --> 00:57:52.320 you off, then it is a terrific show. Some of 1212 00:57:52.360 --> 00:57:54.320 that does bother me, and I kind of wish that 1213 00:57:54.360 --> 00:57:57.119 it was on vid Angel. I think some of the 1214 00:57:57.159 --> 00:58:00.400 older seasons are vid Angel will actually let you, like 1215 00:58:00.440 --> 00:58:02.639 you can say, don't show me any of the nudity, 1216 00:58:02.760 --> 00:58:06.199 or you know, it'll cut the sound for the words 1217 00:58:06.199 --> 00:58:08.679 you don't want to hear the curse words. But anyway, 1218 00:58:08.719 --> 00:58:10.280 it's it's a really really good series. 1219 00:58:10.320 --> 00:58:11.159 I really enjoyed it. 1220 00:58:11.559 --> 00:58:13.480 Nice I check it out. I actually I love watching 1221 00:58:13.480 --> 00:58:17.920 a good Western. I watched what's that show Darkwoard or 1222 00:58:17.960 --> 00:58:20.199 something I can't remember that's like this, let's not call that. 1223 00:58:20.280 --> 00:58:20.599 There's this. 1224 00:58:22.159 --> 00:58:24.320 Big famous Western series. I watched them. I think I 1225 00:58:24.360 --> 00:58:25.519 was in Netflix a while ago. 1226 00:58:26.159 --> 00:58:31.079 But yeah, yeah, so most Westerns are like Old West Westerns, 1227 00:58:31.440 --> 00:58:35.199 and this one gets into like state politics and yeah, 1228 00:58:35.199 --> 00:58:40.119 there's plenty of shooting and horseback riding and wrangling cows 1229 00:58:40.119 --> 00:58:40.719 and all that too. 1230 00:58:40.800 --> 00:58:46.920 But yeah, anyway, nice, Yeah, I don't, like I said, 1231 00:58:46.960 --> 00:58:47.280 I don't. 1232 00:58:47.599 --> 00:58:49.599 Unfortunately, I don't get to watch a lot of TV 1233 00:58:49.880 --> 00:58:52.480 right now, but because I've been working really hard on 1234 00:58:52.480 --> 00:58:55.119 this kind of stuff. But I do when I had 1235 00:58:55.159 --> 00:58:58.639 some down sign So I'm a huge history buff and 1236 00:58:58.679 --> 00:59:01.119 anybody who knows me were really tired of the fact 1237 00:59:01.119 --> 00:59:05.760 that I'm very, very big medieval history nerd. I read 1238 00:59:05.800 --> 00:59:09.239 everything from my year one thousand to like twelve hundred. 1239 00:59:09.239 --> 00:59:11.159 I don't know why this triggers me in a nice 1240 00:59:11.159 --> 00:59:14.119 way of because it's like a if you don't know 1241 00:59:14.159 --> 00:59:16.119 about history, it's kind of like we basically don't know. 1242 00:59:16.400 --> 00:59:18.360 We know about the Roman and paranoia stuff, and then 1243 00:59:18.400 --> 00:59:21.119 there's like a basically there's like a gap because of 1244 00:59:21.159 --> 00:59:24.679 all the the changes in times, and then around year 1245 00:59:24.719 --> 00:59:27.400 thousands when things actually start getting getting done against it 1246 00:59:27.400 --> 00:59:30.320 as good good records around that, and I recently this 1247 00:59:30.440 --> 00:59:33.679 is super nerdy. But I recently went on like a 1248 00:59:33.719 --> 00:59:38.239 deep dive on on Southern Italy medieval history and I 1249 00:59:38.320 --> 00:59:41.360 read a really really good book series by I think 1250 00:59:41.360 --> 00:59:47.400 it's an English author, John Julius Norwich, and it's very 1251 00:59:47.400 --> 00:59:50.119 old books from like the sixties, but he writes this 1252 00:59:50.199 --> 00:59:53.519 amazing trilogy about like Sicilian history in the Middle Ages, 1253 00:59:53.559 --> 00:59:57.039 and it's it's interesting if you're very nerdly and you're 1254 00:59:57.039 --> 00:59:58.920 into that kind of stuff. For me, so I don't 1255 00:59:58.960 --> 01:00:00.760 read a lot, but that the kind of book where 1256 01:00:00.760 --> 01:00:04.320 I just started reading. I couldn't stop and I ended 1257 01:00:04.360 --> 01:00:06.719 up actually just almost buying everything that I made because 1258 01:00:06.719 --> 01:00:09.400 it's really good. I don't know, hopefully he's not controversial 1259 01:00:09.480 --> 01:00:11.280 or something because I just I just read the books, 1260 01:00:11.280 --> 01:00:19.440 but really really good stuff, and it's it's like from 1261 01:00:19.440 --> 01:00:22.039 a point in time where you know people move from 1262 01:00:22.039 --> 01:00:27.000 different countries. Today we're very like like what is also 1263 01:00:27.079 --> 01:00:28.960 to be mean to be American? What does it mean 1264 01:00:29.000 --> 01:00:32.159 to be European? But basically in the Middle Ages, and 1265 01:00:32.239 --> 01:00:34.400 this is like a communist conception, people actually just travel 1266 01:00:34.400 --> 01:00:36.280 a lot and move from many places to many places, 1267 01:00:36.280 --> 01:00:39.960 and people's from other places to all the places like 1268 01:00:40.079 --> 01:00:43.559 southern Italy for me, as I'm from the Norrix, like 1269 01:00:43.599 --> 01:00:46.280 it has like a history of like vikings and kings 1270 01:00:46.360 --> 01:00:51.599 settling and like the Roman Empire's history and the Eastern 1271 01:00:51.639 --> 01:00:54.000 Roman and all that clashing in like the Middle Ages 1272 01:00:54.000 --> 01:00:56.800 and all those culturist mixtion and the Arabs and like 1273 01:00:57.559 --> 01:00:59.760 becoming like a half of everything. And obviously you have 1274 01:00:59.800 --> 01:01:02.519 the Sage, which is like has a bunch of history, 1275 01:01:02.519 --> 01:01:04.039 but like that all went through there, so like it's 1276 01:01:04.119 --> 01:01:08.119 just like that period for me is insanely interesting to 1277 01:01:08.159 --> 01:01:09.280 read about because it's just like. 1278 01:01:09.280 --> 01:01:10.280 Everything happening at once. 1279 01:01:10.400 --> 01:01:12.320 And and yeah, you should check out that book series 1280 01:01:12.480 --> 01:01:13.639 by the offer if you're into that. 1281 01:01:13.639 --> 01:01:15.280 That's probably like one person out there that's gonna be like, 1282 01:01:15.320 --> 01:01:17.239 that's awesome a lot to do that. 1283 01:01:19.599 --> 01:01:21.599 And if you then if you're into that, just google 1284 01:01:21.679 --> 01:01:23.280 those the stuff from that and you'll find all this 1285 01:01:23.440 --> 01:01:25.639 like really nerdly really good YouTube content that people made 1286 01:01:25.679 --> 01:01:28.719 on that about the history of like in Italy. 1287 01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:29.679 So that's my. 1288 01:01:29.719 --> 01:01:34.840 Minority pick for today. I'm I'm and if somebody has 1289 01:01:34.880 --> 01:01:37.039 good recommendations of any kind of like other deep dies 1290 01:01:37.079 --> 01:01:38.039 on that, I'm very interested on. 1291 01:01:38.239 --> 01:01:41.559 That's my period. I'm very fixated on very very. 1292 01:01:41.400 --> 01:01:43.239 Cool stuff, very cool. Yeah. 1293 01:01:43.280 --> 01:01:45.159 I lived in Italy for a couple of years, and 1294 01:01:45.360 --> 01:01:50.280 really which part of it, Mostly in the north actually, 1295 01:01:50.320 --> 01:01:52.679 so you're you're talking about areas that I didn't see, 1296 01:01:52.719 --> 01:01:54.119 but I live. 1297 01:01:54.039 --> 01:01:55.760 In I live in the south of Switzerland. 1298 01:01:55.800 --> 01:01:59.039 I live I live very close to to nominatally obviously, 1299 01:01:59.039 --> 01:02:00.920 it's like ten minut rights. 1300 01:02:02.760 --> 01:02:07.480 Yeah, so I I was a missionary there the furthest 1301 01:02:07.519 --> 01:02:12.199 north I got was Portanone and Verona. 1302 01:02:12.480 --> 01:02:12.639 But. 1303 01:02:14.159 --> 01:02:16.360 Where I actually lived, but I mean we went up 1304 01:02:16.360 --> 01:02:20.360 into Trento and Bolzano and some of those that are 1305 01:02:20.400 --> 01:02:21.119 kind of up that way. 1306 01:02:21.239 --> 01:02:25.840 So yeah, it's like that area obviously, you know, but 1307 01:02:25.880 --> 01:02:28.280 like that's just so rich of all kinds of history 1308 01:02:28.360 --> 01:02:32.320 or all places like the church and like the the 1309 01:02:32.360 --> 01:02:34.440 peoples and you know different. 1310 01:02:34.639 --> 01:02:36.480 Yeah, that stuff is all so fascinating. 1311 01:02:37.199 --> 01:02:37.400 Yeah. 1312 01:02:38.440 --> 01:02:41.400 Well, and you get into the eighteen hundreds when Italy 1313 01:02:42.119 --> 01:02:44.920 formed as a country as we know it now. I 1314 01:02:44.960 --> 01:02:47.239 mean again, there were still there were like three or 1315 01:02:47.239 --> 01:02:51.639 four kingdoms, and you know, I mean all all of 1316 01:02:51.679 --> 01:02:55.360 the different fact factors that went into it. Yeah, there 1317 01:02:55.360 --> 01:02:57.960 were people from the Church that played a pretty major 1318 01:02:58.079 --> 01:03:01.199 role in Italy coming together as a country. Yeah, it's 1319 01:03:01.239 --> 01:03:02.480 it's really really interesting. 1320 01:03:03.599 --> 01:03:05.119 Yeah, it's kind of like again if you like, if 1321 01:03:05.119 --> 01:03:08.360 you know, I think people like to you know, like 1322 01:03:08.480 --> 01:03:10.400 you know, you read about the Romans and that kind 1323 01:03:10.400 --> 01:03:12.039 of stuff, but it's like you can just you can 1324 01:03:12.119 --> 01:03:13.719 keep diving and you can get more and more niche 1325 01:03:13.719 --> 01:03:16.280 and like it's all these areas and yeah, and like 1326 01:03:16.360 --> 01:03:18.400 with the Popes and also like the history of the 1327 01:03:18.480 --> 01:03:20.639 South that's like a huge interlapt there and like with 1328 01:03:20.760 --> 01:03:25.119 different massively important events that's basically shaped the entire history 1329 01:03:25.119 --> 01:03:25.920 of the Western world. 1330 01:03:25.960 --> 01:03:27.960 I think that's like insanely fascinating. 1331 01:03:28.800 --> 01:03:32.000 So yeah, yeah, I don't I don't think people know that, 1332 01:03:32.039 --> 01:03:34.480 like the popes had their own kingdoms down there for. 1333 01:03:36.079 --> 01:03:42.599 Centuries. Yeah yeah, yeah, so very very interesting. 1334 01:03:42.639 --> 01:03:46.440 And yeah, southern Italy especially Yeah, like you said, I 1335 01:03:46.480 --> 01:03:51.760 mean they got invaded by everybody on the Mediterranean and 1336 01:03:51.800 --> 01:03:54.400 some outside the Mediterranean, like you mentioned the Vikings. 1337 01:03:54.440 --> 01:03:56.920 So I mean it's. 1338 01:03:56.599 --> 01:03:59.280 It's interesting too because people from the from southern Italy 1339 01:03:59.320 --> 01:04:02.320 actually look different from people from northern Italy. 1340 01:04:03.599 --> 01:04:06.480 Yeah, it's like when you travel in Italy also, it's 1341 01:04:06.519 --> 01:04:08.280 kind of like you can kind of food of food, 1342 01:04:08.360 --> 01:04:11.400 you can sense when those boundaries, Like the food is 1343 01:04:11.480 --> 01:04:16.000 very different than an Orthern food and like that's and 1344 01:04:16.079 --> 01:04:18.840 like the Arabic culture in Sicily and like they have 1345 01:04:18.880 --> 01:04:22.039 amazing you know, Arabic chocolate and things like that lighted. Yes, 1346 01:04:22.239 --> 01:04:26.519 it's a crazy beautiful place and like, yeah, rich in 1347 01:04:26.599 --> 01:04:27.119 history almost. 1348 01:04:27.239 --> 01:04:32.920 Yeah, in some ways some of the stuff is homogeneous, right, 1349 01:04:33.000 --> 01:04:36.960 So you know there are things that are generally true 1350 01:04:36.960 --> 01:04:41.079 of Italy, you know, including within the food, but then 1351 01:04:41.119 --> 01:04:44.880 every region has their own take on a lot of 1352 01:04:44.880 --> 01:04:47.800 that stuff too, and so then it's it's okay, well, 1353 01:04:48.199 --> 01:04:52.119 you know, they're they're making kind of the same dish, 1354 01:04:52.519 --> 01:04:55.079 but they've got their own flair, right they put a 1355 01:04:55.119 --> 01:04:57.320 different meat or spice or something else in it, or 1356 01:04:57.639 --> 01:04:59.599 they eat it with a different kind of bread or 1357 01:05:00.960 --> 01:05:03.360 you know. I mean anyway, it's it's really really fun 1358 01:05:03.360 --> 01:05:07.719 and fascinating to get into the dialects very widely across 1359 01:05:07.719 --> 01:05:11.159 the country. I mean, it's it's really really yeah, it's fun. 1360 01:05:11.840 --> 01:05:14.119 If anybody's watching this, probably not, but like this, and 1361 01:05:14.239 --> 01:05:16.519 like an executive producer and the Netflix or something, please 1362 01:05:16.519 --> 01:05:19.000 make a show about that whole region about like those 1363 01:05:19.159 --> 01:05:23.039 time periods. I'll watch all of it, right, right, yeah, 1364 01:05:23.239 --> 01:05:25.280 it's really missing. It's a huge missing gap. And like 1365 01:05:25.320 --> 01:05:30.159 this overproduction of all things, Like there's so many intense, 1366 01:05:30.440 --> 01:05:34.280 you know, straight to TV movie amazing stories about us 1367 01:05:34.320 --> 01:05:36.400 we like with the Pope and all that stuff, and 1368 01:05:36.400 --> 01:05:37.719 at least somebody needs to make that. 1369 01:05:38.159 --> 01:05:43.880 I think, yeah, absolutely, all right, well I'm gonna go 1370 01:05:43.920 --> 01:05:46.119 ahead and wrap us up. But this was fun and 1371 01:05:46.159 --> 01:05:50.800 I I I kind of love the meandering historical discussion 1372 01:05:50.800 --> 01:05:54.559 that we it's I'm I mean, but I'm totally in this, 1373 01:05:54.760 --> 01:05:57.800 not just for the technology, but for the people and 1374 01:05:57.840 --> 01:06:00.119 the interests and and I feel like a lot of 1375 01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:04.000 times we kind of forget to go beyond the technology 1376 01:06:04.079 --> 01:06:07.559 into what makes the you know, the people in. 1377 01:06:07.519 --> 01:06:10.079 The ecosystem just so interesting. 1378 01:06:10.119 --> 01:06:12.559 So so yeah, so thanks for opening up on the 1379 01:06:12.559 --> 01:06:15.199 stuff that you're interested in beyond tech, because that's fun. 1380 01:06:15.760 --> 01:06:18.800 And uh yeah, we'll wrap up here until next time, folks, 1381 01:06:19.320 --> 01:06:20.199 Max Max out