Speaker 1: Welcome back to Podsave America. I'm Tommy v Tour.
Speaker 2: The final game of the twenty twenty six FIFA World
Speaker 2: Cup is now about a week away, and I am
Speaker 2: already genuinely sad that this is about to be over.
Speaker 2: The tournament has taken me from casual fan to full
Speaker 2: on World Cup junkie, and I don't know what I'm
Speaker 2: going to do going forward, to not.
Speaker 3: Do work at the office because we just have the
Speaker 3: games on all day.
Speaker 2: And what makes this all the more remarkable is that
Speaker 2: before the World Cup began, there was a global sense
Speaker 2: of anxiety and concern about holding this tournament in Donald
Speaker 2: Trump's America. Fans from all around the world were worried
Speaker 2: about ice raids, VSA restrictions, travel bands, and then also
Speaker 2: you know, issues with FIFA itself, like the exorbitant price
Speaker 2: of tickets. That one was not resolved by the way,
Speaker 2: and while there have been some unfortunate incidents, mostly the
Speaker 2: conversation has been about the excitement around the US men's team,
Speaker 2: at least at first, the unbelievable quality of the games themselves,
Speaker 2: the incredible finishes, and the joy of watching fans from
Speaker 2: around the world come to America, fall in love with
Speaker 2: our cities, our culture inhale food from waffle House and
Speaker 2: serenade stadiums with songs and even Viking chants, and it
Speaker 2: has served as a reminder to a lot of us.
Speaker 2: I think that we live in a great country and
Speaker 2: one that is defined by its people and not by
Speaker 2: its politics. So today, to dig into all things World Cup,
Speaker 2: I'm thrilled to be joined by Soccer Royalty.
Speaker 1: Gary Lineker.
Speaker 2: He's a former England striker, broadcaster and co founder of Goalhanger.
Speaker 2: He was one of the greatest soccer players of his generation.
Speaker 2: The guy had a hat trick in the eighty six
Speaker 2: World Cup. Incredible. Gary played in one of the most
Speaker 2: famous soccer games in history against Argentinian legend Diego Maradona
Speaker 2: and today he's one of Britain's best known sports broadcasters
Speaker 2: and he's one who has used its platform to speak
Speaker 2: out about social justice issues and has even been criticized
Speaker 2: for statements he's made, which we'll get into in the
Speaker 2: interview today. Gary is the host of an excellent soccer
Speaker 2: podcast called The Rest Is Football, which you can catch
Speaker 2: on Netflix throughout the World Cup and if you're in
Speaker 2: the market for a new podcast, check Up, Goalhangar. They've
Speaker 2: got a bunch of great shows. The rest is history,
Speaker 2: the rest is politics. The list goes on. And another
Speaker 2: great way to support progressive independent media is to become
Speaker 2: a friend of the pod subscriber. Here with Crooked Media,
Speaker 2: you'll get ad free episodes of Pot Save America. You'll
Speaker 2: get other great Crooked shows like Pot Save the World
Speaker 2: is ad free as well. You'll get tons of bonus content,
Speaker 2: including bonus Pot Save America episodes. You get deep dives
Speaker 2: into the polling, the latest polls from Dan Pfeiffer. There's
Speaker 2: great newsletters, much much more so becoming a paid subscriber.
Speaker 1: It's the single best way you.
Speaker 2: Can support our work and help us grow. So if
Speaker 2: you like what we're doing, please consider it. And with that,
Speaker 2: here's my conversation with Gary Lineker. So, Gary, I'm a
Speaker 2: casual soccer fan who has become obsessed with this World Cup.
Speaker 2: So it's really it's a pleasure for me to talk
Speaker 2: to a soccer legend like you, as someone who played
Speaker 2: in two World Cups for England, You've covered soccer for decades.
Speaker 2: What are your impressions of the tournament so far?
Speaker 4: I think it's been quite joyous at times.
Speaker 5: There are always with all big tournaments, especially the World Cup,
Speaker 5: they're always pros and cons, but I think by and
Speaker 5: large it's gone spectacularly well in many ways. On the pitch,
Speaker 5: I think the football has been really good, and some
Speaker 5: brilliant games, some cracking stories of underdogs, you know Cape
Speaker 5: Verdi for example.
Speaker 4: I think the real joy.
Speaker 5: Has probably been the way the fans have celebrated not
Speaker 5: just their own victories, but celebrated together and kind of
Speaker 5: shown a lovely humanity and togetherness that we've probably not
Speaker 5: seen previously. And perhaps it's a little message to the
Speaker 5: world that we can get on, yeah, even if we're
Speaker 5: on from all parts of the world. So I think
Speaker 5: that's been that's been wonderful. The tournament's building up now
Speaker 5: obviously to the crescendo, the excitement that the big final,
Speaker 5: but I think it's been way better than I actually
Speaker 5: thought it would be.
Speaker 4: They're obviously going into it.
Speaker 5: Like we do in all World Cups, we always think
Speaker 5: there's you know, there's gonna be things that go wrong,
Speaker 5: and there have been and things that we perhaps don't like,
Speaker 5: But overall.
Speaker 4: I think it's been I think it's been a triumph.
Speaker 2: Really, yeah, I mean that that's sort of why I
Speaker 2: was wondering. I mean, the lead up to the tournament,
Speaker 2: there was a lot of anxiety about you know, Trump
Speaker 2: administration policies, the impact on the quality of play, from
Speaker 2: the expansion of the tournament to more teams, ticket prices.
Speaker 2: I know that one has not been resolved because I've
Speaker 2: been on stell Oh my god, people are people don't
Speaker 2: love FIFA generally, right, and Johnny and Fantino and given
Speaker 2: the you know, fucking FIFA Peace Prize and stuff. But
Speaker 2: once the game started, the conversation shifted to the play
Speaker 2: on the field, the clips of you know, the Scottish
Speaker 2: fans at Fenway Park singing, you know, through the seventh
Speaker 2: inning of a game. Is that like just what happens
Speaker 2: every few of a World Cup, Like there's anxieties and
Speaker 2: then the play starts and we move on or what
Speaker 2: do you make of it?
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's pretty much how it works.
Speaker 5: So you go, I've covered so many, so many World Cups,
Speaker 5: and I've played in a couple of them. But prior
Speaker 5: to the World Cup, everyone expresses their fears and their concerns.
Speaker 5: There's a lot of anticipation, excitement as well on the
Speaker 5: positive side, but also I go but let's not go
Speaker 5: back too far. But let's go to twenty fourteen in Brazil,
Speaker 5: all the fans with like thousands and thousands of people
Speaker 5: on the streets demonstrating the fact that they're spending so
Speaker 5: much money on the World Cup stadiums, et cetera, rather
Speaker 5: than the infrastructure and perhaps the health service in Brazil.
Speaker 4: Roll on four years. We're in Russia.
Speaker 5: Four years previously they invaded Crimea, so that was you know,
Speaker 5: a massive concern. When we go on to Qatar and
Speaker 5: there was concerns about lgbt Q plus right, people have
Speaker 5: been dying making the building the stadiums. But again going
Speaker 5: into this one, we're obviously worried about the situation who's
Speaker 5: going to be allowed into this country and which we
Speaker 5: never had before. We did have concerns obviously when the referee,
Speaker 5: the Somalian referee wasn't allowed in and but you know,
Speaker 5: everyone was worried about ice taking fans off the streets,
Speaker 5: but that's thankfully not really transpired. So yeah, it's it
Speaker 5: was ever thus really and you know, during the World
Speaker 5: Cups there are always things that you don't like and
Speaker 5: there's been things like you said, the ticket price, and
Speaker 5: I think it's outrageous.
Speaker 4: FIFA is supposed to been non for profit organization.
Speaker 5: They've got billions pounds or dollars or euros in the
Speaker 5: in Swiss banks, and obviously I always say it goes
Speaker 5: back into the game, and a lot of it of
Speaker 5: course does. But I don't think it's right when you've
Speaker 5: got something as special as a World Cup that profit
Speaker 5: becomes the most important thing rather than the experience of
Speaker 5: football fans. I don't think it's right that fans should
Speaker 5: have to take out a mortgage or sell their car.
Speaker 4: To get a ticket to go and watch a football match.
Speaker 4: So I don't like that.
Speaker 5: I don't like the interference we've had in this World Cup.
Speaker 5: In terms of what happened with Baligan, the American forward
Speaker 5: that was you got a red card, which was I
Speaker 5: thought a really poor decision, but they didn't reverse the decision,
Speaker 5: they just postponed. Is the fact that he's suspension, which
Speaker 5: felt wrong, and now we've got an English player in
Speaker 5: exactly the same position. He's got two game ban so
Speaker 5: you just think, how can this possibly happen?
Speaker 4: So there are always things in the tournament.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but I think the positives far outweigh the negatives overall.
Speaker 2: Well, I want to ask you about FIFA in a bit. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm sure there are a nonprofit. I would love to
Speaker 2: see what the line item is for Jihnny and Fantino's
Speaker 2: private jet this month, because he's had a lot of
Speaker 2: games that are far away, and boy, they cut to
Speaker 2: him a bunch during the broadcast, I've noticed. Before we
Speaker 2: get to that, though, So you played on some of
Speaker 2: the biggest professional clubs in England, also in Spain. You
Speaker 2: played for England in eighty international games. How does the
Speaker 2: feeling of stepping onto the field at the World Cup
Speaker 2: compare to those other big games?
Speaker 3: In moments?
Speaker 4: Nothing like it? Representing New country to World Cup.
Speaker 5: I think it's I think it's the most special thing
Speaker 5: you can ever do. I would compare it probably to
Speaker 5: an athlete in the Olympic Games. That's their moment every
Speaker 5: four years. But this is sort of it's a little
Speaker 5: bit different to just a medal table compare. You know,
Speaker 5: US are always there with China and it's always always
Speaker 5: the same people because there's so many different sports involved.
Speaker 5: But football is is.
Speaker 4: Kind of a Globe sport. Even you guys enjoyed in
Speaker 4: a little bit.
Speaker 1: Now you're trying a bit.
Speaker 5: Of interest, I've noticed, so, which is which is great.
Speaker 4: So it's a chance.
Speaker 5: Really, I don't think there's anything like it where you
Speaker 5: can show your patrioticness supporting your country, but at the
Speaker 5: same time we can all get on and enjoy it.
Speaker 4: So it is unique.
Speaker 5: And when you walk out, you know, represent your country
Speaker 5: and you stand there and they're playing the national anthem,
Speaker 5: and especially if things go well, I mean, it's it's
Speaker 5: just it's hard to describe. It's just like it's just
Speaker 5: like this is huge explosion of joy and pride.
Speaker 4: It's amazing.
Speaker 2: You had a hat trick against Poland in the nineteen
Speaker 2: eighty six World Cup. They were going through some shit
Speaker 2: at the time. You know, they had one party rule,
Speaker 2: they had Chernobyl. Did you feel bad about that at all?
Speaker 2: Do you feel bad about, you know, beating them that bad?
Speaker 5: If I'm really honest, not particularly. I mean, obviously some
Speaker 5: terrible things in all countries suffer at different at different times,
Speaker 5: and we've been we've been responsible for a lot of
Speaker 5: it over hundreds of years. But you know, when you're
Speaker 5: on that football pitch. You just want to play and
Speaker 5: you want to score, and you want to win, and
Speaker 5: you it's.
Speaker 2: It's nothing like you're tougher on that country than being
Speaker 2: Communism even.
Speaker 1: I mean, that was a tough game.
Speaker 2: Now you transition from from player to broadcaster to podcaster,
Speaker 2: do you ever feel bad about taking podcasting jobs away
Speaker 2: from unathletic slubs that used to have them.
Speaker 5: I don't think I've done that. I think we've added
Speaker 5: lots of podcasts. I've got a company, cool Gold.
Speaker 1: You get some some athletic slubs on the payroll. You
Speaker 1: feel like.
Speaker 4: We've definitely got some of those.
Speaker 2: Okay, say some downloads for the rest of us, all right.
Speaker 4: We've got we've got political pods as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, you do. You have some great ones.
Speaker 2: So you mentioned this earlier, that the story about Trump
Speaker 2: calling the FIFA president to lift the suspension against one
Speaker 2: of America's best players. Flow of elegance. We could play
Speaker 2: against Belgium, so the US we got worked in that game.
Speaker 2: We lost badly, So the suspension of Baligan's red card
Speaker 2: it didn't matter much in terms of the outcome of
Speaker 2: that specific game. But as you said, that decision is
Speaker 2: going to be. It's going to hang around FIFA's neck
Speaker 2: for a long time. So do you think Baligan deserved
Speaker 2: a red card on the play? And like, what has
Speaker 2: the international reaction been to what FIFA did?
Speaker 1: How big a deal is this?
Speaker 5: It's it's a pretty big deal because I think it
Speaker 5: goes against the integrity of our sport. You know, you've
Speaker 5: got to have rules and they've got to be fair
Speaker 5: and they've got to be the same for everyone. You
Speaker 5: can't have, you know, one rule for one and one
Speaker 5: rule for another, not in our sport. So and we've
Speaker 5: never had anything I don't think quite like this before.
Speaker 4: So you know, whilst it probably well, it most.
Speaker 5: Certainly didn't make any difference or it might have had
Speaker 5: some kind of negative effect on America's performance with all
Speaker 5: the hulla baloo around around this, So I don't think so.
Speaker 4: I mean, Belgium are always likely to be the US.
Speaker 5: It's you know, it's not your obviously your primary sport
Speaker 5: in this country.
Speaker 4: You're you're on a road.
Speaker 5: I think you're on a journey where football is growing
Speaker 5: in this country.
Speaker 4: You've got a league now that's you know, you've got one.
Speaker 5: Or two of the best players in the World Messi
Speaker 5: Messi is here, so I think it is growing. But
Speaker 5: I've always wondered why why in terms of fifather, they're
Speaker 5: so obsessed with trying to get America to be super
Speaker 5: interested in our sport. Because if ever you are, if
Speaker 5: you ever get all your real athletes play, now, okay,
Speaker 5: you might be bloody good and that would be really irritating.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hear you.
Speaker 2: I mean, look, I knew were in trouble in that game.
Speaker 2: Well we were in trouble already, but when Belgium subbed
Speaker 2: in a striker who had been named league MVP in
Speaker 2: the Serie R late in the game, the sky the cuckoo,
Speaker 2: and then we subbed in the former coach's son who
Speaker 2: played for an MLS club in Canada.
Speaker 1: They kind of told you everything about the quality of
Speaker 1: the players who are.
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Speaker 2: Well, let me ask you about that US team though.
Speaker 2: So I got to see the US team play against Panama.
Speaker 2: It was one of the most fun experiences pure I've
Speaker 2: ever been to sports whatever concerts anything. Everyone left that
Speaker 2: stadium full of hope and excitement and saying the same
Speaker 2: thing like this is our breakout year. And throughout the
Speaker 2: group stage we looked pretty good. We were operating and
Speaker 2: felt like we were operating on a different level. And
Speaker 2: then Belgium shows up and they kicked a shit out
Speaker 2: of us. And it's an unbiased outsider like, give it
Speaker 2: to a strake Gary, were we actually any better this
Speaker 2: year or the US team? And what do you think
Speaker 2: happened against Belgium?
Speaker 5: Well, I think I remember being interviewed early on after
Speaker 5: the before the tournament, and you're always asked, obviously, how
Speaker 5: the host nation will go.
Speaker 4: One of the host.
Speaker 5: Nations America, which and I always said, if they got
Speaker 5: to the last sixteen, I think that would be a
Speaker 5: really good effort. I couldn't really seriously see them getting
Speaker 5: past anyone that was any good, like a proper big
Speaker 5: European team, one of the North African sides. But I
Speaker 5: thought the fact that they did so well in the
Speaker 5: group stage was a real plus for the States and
Speaker 5: the tournament as a whole, because you want the host
Speaker 5: nations doing reasonably well. So, if I'm really honest, rather
Speaker 5: than being diplomatic, I would say that's as far as
Speaker 5: I ever saw them going, you know. And you know,
Speaker 5: it's funny after that first game, you talked about the
Speaker 5: Panama game when they had that incredible first half, and
Speaker 5: it was really good to see. And I know Mauricio
Speaker 5: a really well pochetting and he's a delightful man, and
Speaker 5: I'm really pleased for him for that, and it was
Speaker 5: a terrific performance. So all my American friends, you said,
Speaker 5: were coming at me and saying texting me and saying you.
Speaker 4: Were wrong abouts we're going to go all the way.
Speaker 4: And I was going to mate.
Speaker 5: Honestly, I know these World Cups and it's always the
Speaker 5: hope that kills you.
Speaker 4: As soon as you start believing a little bit, all
Speaker 4: goes wrong.
Speaker 5: As an Englishman, I'm very experienced in that many many times.
Speaker 5: But overall I thought they did pretty well. I think
Speaker 5: the plava surrounding Baligan's thing did.
Speaker 4: I don't think it helped them.
Speaker 5: I think if I think Mauricia missed the trick there,
Speaker 5: I think he should have just said no, we're not
Speaker 5: doing that, it's not right. I think he could. I
Speaker 5: would have been a very difficult thing to do. And
Speaker 5: if they'd have lost in the same way. Having done that,
Speaker 5: he would have been probably hung out to dry. So
Speaker 5: it's easy for me to say that, but I think
Speaker 5: it probably had some kind of effect.
Speaker 4: But overall, you know.
Speaker 5: You've got you've got half a good team, but there's
Speaker 5: not much depth yet and hopefully the sport will grow,
Speaker 5: but we'll see.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Pochettino had sat Baligan. I think he might have
Speaker 2: been the first guy thrown into ice detention while in
Speaker 2: a stadium by Trump.
Speaker 1: So you know, it's a challenging situation to be in.
Speaker 2: What do you make of the criticism of America star
Speaker 2: player Christian Polisic. He did not have a great World Cup.
Speaker 2: He subbed himself off with an injury. I've seen some
Speaker 2: former US men's national team players specifically criticizing him, which
Speaker 2: feels I'm sure it's painful for him, But what do
Speaker 2: you make of this?
Speaker 5: I think it's a little unfair because I think his
Speaker 5: his abilities were taken a little bit out of proportion.
Speaker 5: I mean, policy's a very good player, very very good footballer.
Speaker 5: He's had a good career. He's played in England, he's
Speaker 5: played he's played in Italy. He's a he's a good footballer.
Speaker 5: But you know when you seen he's on all the
Speaker 5: billboards here. I mean we're doing the show it from
Speaker 5: here in from Times Square, and and he's everywhere, and
Speaker 5: you think, well, that's it's almost like he's Messy or Ronaldo.
Speaker 4: And with all due respect, he's a very good footballer,
Speaker 4: but he's not a great player.
Speaker 5: He's not you know, he's not one of the best
Speaker 5: in the world by a long stretch. But I think
Speaker 5: when you're the you've got carrying the hearts of a
Speaker 5: nation and the hopes of a nation, that pressure was
Speaker 5: probably so much. So I feel for him actually because
Speaker 5: whilst it's probably exciting to be treated as the big
Speaker 5: superstar of you know, of a World Cup, and in
Speaker 5: reality that was never realistically going to happen.
Speaker 4: So I can.
Speaker 5: I can sympathize with him to a degree. It just
Speaker 5: it doesn't deserve all the criticism. Football is very, very hard.
Speaker 5: It's difficult. You know, you play best players in the
Speaker 5: world and they.
Speaker 4: Have to stop you.
Speaker 5: You know, I've played us forward all my career and
Speaker 5: these we have these things called defenders and they're out
Speaker 5: there to stop You'll or buy crop, they'll try it.
Speaker 4: In some way.
Speaker 2: Every World Cup we kind of talk about is this
Speaker 2: the US's year. Are we going to take soccer to
Speaker 2: the next level? And it's to the point where it's
Speaker 2: kind of become a running joke, but like what would
Speaker 2: that entail?
Speaker 1: Is that more developing the professional level? Are we talking
Speaker 1: about like getting more kids involved? All of the above?
Speaker 4: All of the above. Really, you've got You've got a
Speaker 4: long way to go.
Speaker 5: What you need You've got a league now, which is
Speaker 5: you know, you've had a league before, obviously it didn't
Speaker 5: quite work and they've started again.
Speaker 4: Now you've got a league.
Speaker 5: You need to work out a plan for for youse
Speaker 5: football both. I mean, obviously you set great examples in
Speaker 5: the women's game. You're probably the best in the world
Speaker 5: that I would say, they're amazing, But you need a
Speaker 5: I think that needs an overall plan and where you've
Speaker 5: got to really I think concentrate on the young the
Speaker 5: youth players, the kids, get them taught properly. I know,
Speaker 5: I've I've spent a lot of time in America over
Speaker 5: the years and I've been to I've seen that. You know,
Speaker 5: there's a lot of football camps, but you need some
Speaker 5: kind of proper organization, probably led by the various MLS.
Speaker 4: Clubs around around the country.
Speaker 5: Where they can recruit the best talent and get them
Speaker 5: properly trained and coached. Obviously, you've got a very different
Speaker 5: system to US and Europe in all football really of
Speaker 5: how you deal with players that go in they are young,
Speaker 5: so in our country for example, and the same applies
Speaker 5: across Europe. If you've got any hope of being a
Speaker 5: soccer player, you've got to join a club when you're sixteen.
Speaker 5: Your education they will cope, they'll give you education on
Speaker 5: the side, but you have to start sixty.
Speaker 4: Obviously, in America with your sports.
Speaker 5: They go to college or they go to university and
Speaker 5: they get draft picks and by you know, if you
Speaker 5: do that in football, it's too late. It's too late
Speaker 5: by the time you're twenty. There will be you know,
Speaker 5: there's always examples that will prove that wrong, but not
Speaker 5: that many. So I think the whole I think you
Speaker 5: really need to have a good think and proper planning
Speaker 5: in terms of not just wait for a World Cup
Speaker 5: and then hope it goes well, but build a long
Speaker 5: term future, look ten twenty thirty years ahead, because it
Speaker 5: is realistically going to take that long fear to challenge.
Speaker 2: So with the bearer, twenty thirty is our years, what
Speaker 2: you're telling me, Yeah, so let me talking about ask
Speaker 2: you with PEPA fepa famously corrupt organization. In twenty fifteen,
Speaker 2: you know, we watched a bunch of fe of officials
Speaker 2: get dragged out of a hotel in Zurich and they're underwear.
Speaker 2: They were for taking bribes. It's like one hundred and
Speaker 2: fifty million dollars in bribes. All these sports marketing executives too.
Speaker 2: Doj is accused FIFA of accepting bribes from reps from
Speaker 2: you know, Russia and Qatar to get those hosting rights
Speaker 2: in those countries. Set Bladder, the former president of FIFA.
Speaker 2: He's currently banned from soccer related activities Johnny and Fantino.
Speaker 2: The new guy doesn't seem like much of an improvement
Speaker 2: to me.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm I'm you know, a casual watching
Speaker 1: this stuff.
Speaker 2: Given how much money stand to be made from international soccer,
Speaker 2: do you have hope of reforming the organization?
Speaker 1: And what would that even look like.
Speaker 4: I've been hoping for that for a long time.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I find it quite quite depressing, particularly the cases
Speaker 5: you talked about.
Speaker 4: I was.
Speaker 5: I was in the room when when Qatar and Russia
Speaker 5: were given the World Cup.
Speaker 4: I didn't have a particular problem with Russia.
Speaker 5: It's a big football nation that never hosted it, and
Speaker 5: I don't really have a problem with it being in
Speaker 5: the Middle East and Qatar either. But but what hurt,
Speaker 5: what made it feel dirty, was was the it was
Speaker 5: so obvious that the bids were corrupt, and it was
Speaker 5: latterly proved to be the case that you know, a
Speaker 5: lot of them took.
Speaker 4: Backhanders for their votes.
Speaker 5: So I remember thinking, this is just truly awful for
Speaker 5: a game.
Speaker 4: And then obviously it changed and Fantino came in. I
Speaker 4: met him.
Speaker 5: He's a nice guy. I've spent time with him, and
Speaker 5: I was hopeful. I was really hopeful that that this,
Speaker 5: this will.
Speaker 4: Be a change. I don't, you know, I don't think
Speaker 4: for one minute.
Speaker 5: Now they're putting bonds to people, put you know, packets
Speaker 5: full of cash to get votes for the World Cup
Speaker 5: or individuals or who's going to host it. But I
Speaker 5: don't like the fact that that they're making that much money,
Speaker 5: and I don't see why they need to do that
Speaker 5: because they.
Speaker 4: You know, yes, it goes back into the game. But
Speaker 4: does it does it?
Speaker 5: We don't really know. It's all a little bit secretive
Speaker 5: in the Swiss banks, so it concerns me. But the
Speaker 5: sport itself is good. It's but I.
Speaker 4: Think it's the same in all things, isn't it.
Speaker 5: It's like if you look even if you look at
Speaker 5: politics across the world, and then the example of this
Speaker 5: World Cup where all fans come together and actually we just.
Speaker 4: Want to get on. I think ninety percent of the
Speaker 4: world just want to have a life.
Speaker 5: They want to be able to afford to eat, they
Speaker 5: want to have a nice home and just get on
Speaker 5: with it.
Speaker 4: And I think, actually, we really like each other all all.
Speaker 5: But it's the people at the top, the leaders, the
Speaker 5: leaders of whether it's governments or FIFA, they just don't
Speaker 5: seem to get that.
Speaker 4: It's all.
Speaker 5: I don't know whether it's greed or it's ego or
Speaker 5: whatever it is, but I find it very depressing, you.
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Speaker 2: One challenge we've had here in the US is sports gambling.
Speaker 2: It's really exploded in the US and twenty eighteen there
Speaker 2: was a Supreme Court ruling that jasonally opened up sports
Speaker 2: gambling and all sorts of states. A lot of sports league,
Speaker 2: the professional leagues have embraced gambling and the money it
Speaker 2: brings in. But now, like no surprise, we're seeing indictments
Speaker 2: and players getting charged with like illegal betting schemes and
Speaker 2: point shaving and YadA, YadA YadA. Do you worry about
Speaker 2: the impact of sports betting on the integrity of professional soccer?
Speaker 2: It seems a lot harder to fix a soccer game
Speaker 2: than it is to do like an over under on
Speaker 2: like free throws made.
Speaker 4: It's difficult.
Speaker 5: I'm not going to be naive here and say it
Speaker 5: doesn't go on, because I think there are things and
Speaker 5: with things have been proven and you know, you can
Speaker 5: bet on absolutely almost anything now and we've had betting
Speaker 5: in our country for a long time, but you can
Speaker 5: you can bet on how many corners and whether a
Speaker 5: player is going to get a yellow card, and that
Speaker 5: opens up that opens it up to you know, possible
Speaker 5: dodgy goings on, So that concerns me overall. At the
Speaker 5: top level, players earn so much money that I don't
Speaker 5: think there will obviously be the odd exception. I don't
Speaker 5: think players will be bought, but it is a worry
Speaker 5: for me. I mean, people can have a bet. I
Speaker 5: don't know, probably if somebody wants to bet on something.
Speaker 5: But what I don't like is the attitude of the
Speaker 5: betting companies and the way they entice your I don't
Speaker 5: know whether it's the same in America, but you know
Speaker 5: in England they'll entice them in with a very attractive
Speaker 5: looking bet, you know, like Belgium to beat USA twenty
Speaker 5: to one.
Speaker 4: I don't know how you do the odds in this country,
Speaker 4: and then they'll get them in.
Speaker 5: But to do that bet, which is going to win,
Speaker 5: you've got to get an account and so then you
Speaker 5: they're in, and once they're in, I mean it ruins
Speaker 5: their life. I think Killing and bat Play speak out
Speaker 5: against the gambling culture around football, and I absolutely totally
Speaker 5: agree with him.
Speaker 4: I don't have on the rest is football.
Speaker 1: That I do.
Speaker 5: We've always refused gambling adverts. For example, I won't I
Speaker 5: won't get involved in that. So yeah, I think it
Speaker 5: is a concern and it's something that we really need
Speaker 5: to keep an eye on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I especially worry about how seamless and easy
Speaker 2: it's become to just lay bet after bet after a
Speaker 2: bet from your phone on your couch, like there's no friction.
Speaker 1: There's no book ei, there's no casino, there's no nothing.
Speaker 1: You're just going like this.
Speaker 5: It's it's it's terrifying because it's it's so addictive as well,
Speaker 5: I mean very fine.
Speaker 4: When I talk to people that.
Speaker 5: Work with people in various addictions, whether it's you know, alcohol, drugs,
Speaker 5: they say the hardest one to kick is the gambling addiction.
Speaker 2: As a broadcaster, after your career, I mean, you've been
Speaker 2: outspoken about a number of issues including you know, immigration rights,
Speaker 2: the war in Gaza. I know that the BBC or
Speaker 2: former employer didn't always love you talking about issues that
Speaker 2: were not soccer. In the US, athletes are often scolded
Speaker 2: for having political opinions or talking about social issues. Fox
Speaker 2: News host famously told Lebron James to shut up and dribble,
Speaker 2: which is a very nice way to talk to someone.
Speaker 2: How did you think about when in how to speak
Speaker 2: out and about what issues?
Speaker 5: I think it came with social media because so suddenly
Speaker 5: you get a platform, whereas before social media, unless you're
Speaker 5: asked in the occasional interview, which I was occasionally about
Speaker 5: certain things outside of football, you don't really get the
Speaker 5: opportunity to share your views. I've always felt strongly and
Speaker 5: tried to, you know, stand up for humanitarian rights, et cetera.
Speaker 5: So I think it's I understand why most sports people
Speaker 5: don't get involved, because.
Speaker 4: You do get a lot of shit when you do it.
Speaker 5: I got that as well, but it's generally shipped from
Speaker 5: people with some kind of vested interest in the opposite
Speaker 5: view to that you've got. And it's generally from the
Speaker 5: people that clam go on and on and on about
Speaker 5: free speech. There's you know, where there's free speech, But
Speaker 5: as soon as you do it as a sportsperson, oh no,
Speaker 5: you stick to you stick to talking about football, right,
Speaker 5: We don't want to hear your political opinions.
Speaker 4: But yeah, I suppose I got.
Speaker 5: I started voicing my concerns about various things on social
Speaker 5: media and it went from from there.
Speaker 4: Really. But I just sometimes if I see something where
Speaker 4: I think there's a dreadful wrong going on, I just.
Speaker 5: Feel the need to speak up about it, And I
Speaker 5: understand why some people don't because it can make your
Speaker 5: life very difficult.
Speaker 4: But for me, I the only person you can control
Speaker 4: really is yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: You know, if you go home at the end of
Speaker 5: the day and look yourself in the mirror and you think, Okay,
Speaker 5: I did the right thing today, it probably doesn't make
Speaker 5: any difference to anybody, but you've got to live with yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think it makes a difference. Listen.
Speaker 2: I think it's we live in a world where people
Speaker 2: are very cynical, and when they see someone they know
Speaker 2: and they trust because they've watched you on TV for
Speaker 2: twenty years talking.
Speaker 1: About the war and Gaza, for example.
Speaker 2: I think that matters, and it makes people think about
Speaker 2: stuff they might otherwise not have thought about and not
Speaker 2: have heard about. But also, you know, back to our
Speaker 2: conversation about like the friction free gambling and the ease
Speaker 2: of social media, I know it makes it like almost
Speaker 2: too easy to speak out on things sometimes, Like I
Speaker 2: know you had an incident where you shared a video
Speaker 2: that included some offensive imagery. You deleted it, you unreservedly apologize.
Speaker 2: You said it was a mistake, you didn't see you know,
Speaker 2: the image in there, you never would have shared. But like,
Speaker 2: did that make you feel like chastened and want to
Speaker 2: retreat from conversations or how did you deal with that?
Speaker 5: I mean, I had a few incidents over my career
Speaker 5: with BBC because they have this partiality rules that actually
Speaker 5: didn't apply to people outside of news and current affairs.
Speaker 5: But then they moved, they moved the goalposts and made
Speaker 5: it true for everyone. But I'd also got into the
Speaker 5: habit thing, so I'd had a couple of fall outs
Speaker 5: with them prior, and I always felt I was in
Speaker 5: the right on those. But the last one that kind
Speaker 5: of made my decision to leave the BBC a little
Speaker 5: bit earlier, was that genuinely concerned because that was, you know,
Speaker 5: absolutely an honest era. You know, I was posting something
Speaker 5: and there was a little tiny rat emoji on the post,
Speaker 5: which I genuinely didn't see.
Speaker 4: I mean, I am stupid, but I'm not that stupid
Speaker 4: enough to have posted that deliberately.
Speaker 5: And you know, I was made aware that it's apparently
Speaker 5: some kind of anti Semitic trope. Although you know, why
Speaker 5: rodents would ever be compared with human beings, I don't know,
Speaker 5: but obviously as soon as I was aware of it,
Speaker 5: I took it straight down and I apologize but I
Speaker 5: felt bad about that because that was my fault. I
Speaker 5: should have been more vigilant and I should have seen it,
Speaker 5: but I didn't. But as soon as I did, I
Speaker 5: took it down. So that wasn't easy.
Speaker 4: That was a tough few days because I I wasn't
Speaker 4: pleased with myself on that one.
Speaker 5: But it's one of those things, and sometimes things happen
Speaker 5: for a reason. I think I've been at the BBC
Speaker 5: for thirty years and it's like a long marriage. In
Speaker 5: the end, you gently fool life, you go your separate
Speaker 5: wady to move on.
Speaker 2: There Sometimes last question about like social issues in soccer.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's just a shocking amount of racism in
Speaker 2: international soccer. I mean, earlier this week, a senator in
Speaker 2: Paraguay tweeted, like some vile stuff about a Chilian and Bappe, who,
Speaker 2: for those who don't know, is this unbelievably good guy.
Speaker 2: He's the best player on the French team. He's one
Speaker 2: of the best in the world. Like I don't it's
Speaker 2: hard not to like him. But she's like been this
Speaker 2: ongoing fight with him now. A couple of years ago,
Speaker 2: England lost in the finals of the European championship game
Speaker 2: and then three black players on the team were subjected
Speaker 2: with this deluge of racist abuse on social media.
Speaker 1: And I know FIFA has like.
Speaker 2: Run all these kind of anti racism campaigns, but you
Speaker 2: see critics say, like it's really just marketing, it's not substance.
Speaker 2: Do you think there's there's more that FIFA International Football
Speaker 2: should do to kind of punish and prevent this behavior.
Speaker 4: I think they.
Speaker 5: Genuinely do try to be honest and there will be
Speaker 5: supportive on I can speak for the Premier League. I
Speaker 5: think they do a lot of good in this area,
Speaker 5: and it's not just performative stuff that they do, some
Speaker 5: really important things.
Speaker 4: I think.
Speaker 5: Unfortunately, and as we see a lot in the world nowadays,
Speaker 5: there will always be isolated attacks on people.
Speaker 4: You talked about the Paraguay and senator.
Speaker 5: I believe that cast abuse on killing them up in
Speaker 5: it was outrageously racist.
Speaker 4: I wasn't even trying to hide it.
Speaker 5: And then he responded and then she responded again, claiming
Speaker 5: to be the victim, and it was quite absurd. So
Speaker 5: and you talked about the three penalty takers through it,
Speaker 5: and you know that's a load of people on social media,
Speaker 5: as we all know.
Speaker 4: I don't think they were view shared by the vast majority.
Speaker 5: But there is an issue not just in sport, but
Speaker 5: in every walk of life in terms of racism. And
Speaker 5: again I'll go to the sometimes the people at the top,
Speaker 5: the people in our governments.
Speaker 4: Do they do it? Do they do enough? You know?
Speaker 4: Is it a football issue or is it a societal issue?
Speaker 5: I think it's the latter, and it's you know, you
Speaker 5: just need more from your governments, and you need them
Speaker 5: to set a good example, not a bad example.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well you're not getting a lot of help from
Speaker 2: the United States on that rightday. I have to agree
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Speaker 1: All right, let's do some fun stuff to end this.
Speaker 1: So back to the World Cup.
Speaker 2: France looks unstoppable, Spain has unbelievable talent. I got to
Speaker 2: see them in person against Austria here in La Argentina
Speaker 2: has messy, Norway has holland England is stacked. We'll recording
Speaker 2: this Friday before the Spain belt some game. But at
Speaker 2: the moment, who do you think is best position to
Speaker 2: win this thing.
Speaker 4: When is this guying out? When he was Sunday drop Sunday.
Speaker 4: So I'm going to look a fool there.
Speaker 1: Both of us. Yeah, I put it to Morocco is
Speaker 1: going to win it all, so I'll start it.
Speaker 6: Well.
Speaker 4: Yeah, good, we do know that result, which we've already
Speaker 4: had that one.
Speaker 6: So I.
Speaker 5: Can't see Belgium living with Spain. I think Spain with
Speaker 5: that relatively comfortably.
Speaker 4: Then I go England Norway. It sounds like England should
Speaker 4: win easily, but Norway going to be tough.
Speaker 1: Oh man, he's he's like a horse there.
Speaker 5: He's the most Viking looking guy I've ever seen in
Speaker 5: my life, and he's a great guy.
Speaker 4: I know Erling really well.
Speaker 5: I've interviewed him a few times and he's got a
Speaker 5: lovely sense of humor.
Speaker 4: Boy can he play? Can he finish?
Speaker 5: I mean he just scores goals, so he's going to
Speaker 5: if we If England can stop him, they'll have a
Speaker 5: good chance.
Speaker 4: I think England have to be slight faces. I'm going
Speaker 4: to go with England.
Speaker 5: I can't not go with as an Englishman myself, but
Speaker 5: you know, I've I just want it happened in my
Speaker 5: I was too young to remember nineteen sixty six when
Speaker 5: England won the World Cup for the for the only time.
Speaker 4: So I've suffered so many times.
Speaker 5: I just want, I just want us to win it
Speaker 5: before I die, just once, just once, please, So But yeah,
Speaker 5: so I'll go England and then.
Speaker 4: I think Argentina should beat Switch.
Speaker 5: I think Switzerland done really well to get to the
Speaker 5: quart finals, but I think I think their time is
Speaker 5: probably and the Little Fellas just too.
Speaker 1: Good mess, too good.
Speaker 2: Everyone in Boston where I'm from, fell in love with
Speaker 2: the Scottish fans. You know, they were singing at Fenway Park,
Speaker 2: they were out there drinking the bars, you know, out
Speaker 2: of beer.
Speaker 1: Were they that lovable when you were playing against them?
Speaker 1: The Tartan Army, were they?
Speaker 4: Fuck? They was horrendous.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but they don't like us very much. I mean,
Speaker 5: I think they've probably got good reason but from him
Speaker 5: in history. But no, they they were tough to play against.
Speaker 5: But it's the weird thing is as English, we actually
Speaker 5: really enjoyed what Scotland were doing, the fans stuff, and
Speaker 5: I genuinely wanted, we genuinely want them to do well.
Speaker 5: The opposite is true for them. They desperately want us
Speaker 5: to lose every single time we play. So but their
Speaker 5: fans were made their fans. I think they won the
Speaker 5: World Cup of the Fan World.
Speaker 4: Cup, didn't they?
Speaker 1: I think?
Speaker 5: But you know, but then you got the Japanese and
Speaker 5: the Mexicans were incredible. English I mean all the English
Speaker 5: fans were slightly apprehensive about going to Mexico City with
Speaker 5: Mexico's fans, and they all were a little bit nervous,
Speaker 5: but every single one of them has come away saying
Speaker 5: how amazing it was, how wonderful the Mexican fans were,
Speaker 5: how they treated English fans, how they all holgd together
Speaker 5: on the final whistle, even despite that extraordinary game, where
Speaker 5: and Mexico played so well with great heart, and it
Speaker 5: was and that for me is the most beautiful thing
Speaker 5: about this competition.
Speaker 1: It really was.
Speaker 2: There was an amazing image of that. I think it
Speaker 2: was a bunch of fans from Columbia. I think when
Speaker 2: they played Dr Congo and there was one guy from
Speaker 2: the Congo in this giant sea of yellow jerseys holding
Speaker 2: up his phone, singing his national anthem by himself, and
Speaker 2: everyone respectfully kept quiet, and they are jumped and hugged
Speaker 2: him after and it was just you know, the beautiful.
Speaker 5: Market, some of those things. I mean, they could teach
Speaker 5: us all the lessons. Can football save the world?
Speaker 2: Hey, hey, I think you're working on it over there,
Speaker 2: col Hanger. You played your whole career without getting a
Speaker 2: single yellow or a red car.
Speaker 3: And how is that possible?
Speaker 4: I never tackled anyone.
Speaker 5: Yeah, when I played, it was they didn't dish out
Speaker 5: yellow cards like they quite as theatrically and quite as
Speaker 5: frequently as they do now.
Speaker 4: So there was a degree of that. But having said that,
Speaker 4: I'm not sure there's anyone else done it. But it
Speaker 4: was mad. Really, I don't know.
Speaker 5: I haven't got temper. I haven't I don't really have
Speaker 5: a temper. So I was never gonna, you know, lambaster referee.
Speaker 5: I could winge a little bit, but just I didn't
Speaker 5: call them any terrible names. And I wasn't overly physical
Speaker 5: as a player, and I got kicked a lot. But
Speaker 5: the thing is, you know, can that make that can
Speaker 5: make you angry sometimes, But the truth is the only
Speaker 5: time it really makes you angry is when it hurts
Speaker 5: a lot and you're laying on the floor for a minute,
Speaker 5: and by the time for the time you've been treated,
Speaker 5: you're okay again. Your temper's like gone down. Yeah, a
Speaker 5: variety of reasons, but it is a bit mad. I
Speaker 5: didn't even think about it until near the end of
Speaker 5: my career and people started saying, he's never been booked,
Speaker 5: he's never had a yellow card, and then I started
Speaker 5: to think, you know, it was in my mind a
Speaker 5: little bit on occasions, and I just thought, maybe my
Speaker 5: last ever game. I remember playing my last match, I
Speaker 5: was thinking, maybe I should just punch around.
Speaker 1: To go ahead in the blaze of glory, just beat
Speaker 1: the goalie.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Actual, I wouldn't mess with the goalies. Those guys look
Speaker 1: like Jesus Chraig. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was told to ask about the closest you ever
Speaker 2: came to getting carted. I don't know if that's a
Speaker 2: story there.
Speaker 4: I was in that was in Spain.
Speaker 5: Funny enough, I was very He went through his pocket
Speaker 5: and and my offense was laughing at his decision.
Speaker 4: He made a ridiculous decision.
Speaker 5: I just burst its laughter and he went with the
Speaker 5: pocket and I said to him, you're going to give
Speaker 5: me a yellow card for laughing, And he put his
Speaker 5: hand back and that was it.
Speaker 1: Just laughing in his face.
Speaker 4: I was just I was just laughing out loud, not
Speaker 4: in his face. Oh, I was just laughing.
Speaker 2: Absurd decision, that sounds fun. I love when the refs
Speaker 2: get pissy. You know, you can tell when they have
Speaker 2: a little bit of an ego. You played in the
Speaker 2: infamous or famous, just famous Hand of God game against
Speaker 2: Diego Maradonna in the nineteen eighty six World Cup.
Speaker 1: Can you tell listeners who might.
Speaker 2: Be unfamiliar with that game just a bit about what
Speaker 2: happened in Maradonna Because it's like it is, it was
Speaker 2: famous game in history.
Speaker 4: I kind of feel like it is. I I think
Speaker 4: it is.
Speaker 5: I think because of a variety of reasons. Four years
Speaker 5: previously the two countries were at war with the Falklands
Speaker 5: or Malvinas as they call it, so that had an effect,
Speaker 5: and then it was built up before because of this
Speaker 5: that you know, our Argentina going to revenge England's war victory,
Speaker 5: if you like to call it that. So that was
Speaker 5: a big deal, and they had the Argentinian side had
Speaker 5: Diego Maradonna, who was the greatest football that I certainly
Speaker 5: played against that played with him once as well.
Speaker 4: He was the best of his time is In terms
Speaker 4: for me, the best.
Speaker 5: Players ever have been two two Argentinians and a Brazilian
Speaker 5: Pele Maradonna, and now Messi.
Speaker 4: Messi for me beats them all. But and who was
Speaker 4: playing in this game?
Speaker 5: And it was pretty awful first half for the most
Speaker 5: famous game in history, but the second half kind.
Speaker 4: Of heated up a bit.
Speaker 5: The ball lumped into the air and Diego went said
Speaker 5: had it, But in the end he punched it over
Speaker 5: our goalkeeper's head. Now now I hate them when it's
Speaker 5: done to our game, but I could have done with
Speaker 5: it that day. So he punched it in and there
Speaker 5: was obviously there's huge ramifications for that. And then just
Speaker 5: a few minutes later he scored what I think is
Speaker 5: the greatest goal that's ever been scored in the football match.
Speaker 4: I've seen couple of similons.
Speaker 5: Messi scored one very similar, but you have to take
Speaker 5: into account this was a quarter final of a World
Speaker 5: Cup in Mexico City, in the Azteca, with these two
Speaker 5: huge countries and Diego doing what he did was It's
Speaker 5: the one time where I was on a pitch and
Speaker 5: somebody did something on the opposite side where I felt
Speaker 5: I ought to applaud I didn't because that would not
Speaker 5: have gone down very well at home.
Speaker 4: And then after that, I scored the goal that no
Speaker 4: one remembers.
Speaker 1: Actually, there you go, there you go my proof.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I I scored my head.
Speaker 5: And then in the very last seconds of the game,
Speaker 5: a ball came across again from John Barnes, our left winger,
Speaker 5: who made a massive difference in the game, flipped it over.
Speaker 4: I was coming at the flopper. I knew I was
Speaker 4: going to score, and.
Speaker 5: From somewhere a lot of good chair their their left
Speaker 5: back came up and it hit the back of his
Speaker 5: head and went out. So that was yeah, which you know,
Speaker 5: I'm almost over it now, it's only it's only forty years.
Speaker 1: Does it still hurt to have lost? Or it's just
Speaker 1: cool to have been a part of history.
Speaker 4: And it's cool to have been a part of that. Yeah, history,
Speaker 4: that's I'd still would have preferred.
Speaker 3: To have won you.
Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, folks should go on YouTube and check out
Speaker 2: the really beautiful tribute you did to Maradona when he
Speaker 2: passed away.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's worth watching. Would you ever run for office?
Speaker 4: Nope, that's the easiest question to give, asked. Nope, I'm
Speaker 4: interested I'm interested in politics, but have no interest in
Speaker 4: being a politician.
Speaker 1: What about what's his name, Bennie mcbinface, Count Binface.
Speaker 4: That guy keeps Count bin Face.
Speaker 1: Would we like his platform?
Speaker 4: I like his head.
Speaker 2: For those of you are, there's a guy who wears
Speaker 2: kind of dressed like Star Wars and wears a trash
Speaker 2: can on his head, and he runs in every special election.
Speaker 5: Yeah, he runs everywhere. He's every kind of by election
Speaker 5: that he'll turn up. But normally there's a load of
Speaker 5: other politicians as well. But it does appear that in
Speaker 5: this by election in Clacton, which has been completely manufactured
Speaker 5: by Nigel Farage to time distract.
Speaker 4: From from his murky goings on, and he's drifting.
Speaker 5: So but it doesn't look like any of the other
Speaker 5: parties in our country are going to put up a
Speaker 5: politician to run against him. So it might be that
Speaker 5: Farage runs against Count Binface, and if Count bin feds ones,
Speaker 5: that will be the.
Speaker 4: Greatest day in political.
Speaker 1: History, the greatest. Le's make it happen.
Speaker 4: Let's make it happen.
Speaker 2: If, oh my god, if you Count bin Face beats
Speaker 2: Nigel Farage, I will laugh so hard. It would be
Speaker 2: so much better than Liz Truss in the lettuce or
Speaker 2: anything else.
Speaker 4: Better.
Speaker 1: It would final question for you.
Speaker 2: So my buddy Roger Bennett encouraged me to be an
Speaker 2: Everton fan a couple of years ago. I have to
Speaker 2: say it hasn't been the most fun winning experience. But
Speaker 2: I watched the World Cup and I see that you
Speaker 2: know the England goalie who plays for Everton, Jordan Pickford,
Speaker 2: playing lights out. You see former Everton players like Lukaku
Speaker 2: scoring for Belgium. What what is what is Everton doing?
Speaker 2: What do we need to do to get them back
Speaker 2: on track?
Speaker 5: Well, I played for Everton way back. Yeah, one year though.
Speaker 5: It was amazing, my best season. Scored a hell of
Speaker 5: a lot of goals. Best team I've played for in
Speaker 5: the mid eighties. They were brilliant, such a strong side.
Speaker 5: You know, they've been through the mill a little bit
Speaker 5: and things haven't got happened for a long time.
Speaker 4: They've picked up a.
Speaker 5: Bit of late, but yeah, it's a great football club though,
Speaker 5: and that's what supporting. I'm sure it's the same in
Speaker 5: American sports, you know, the suffering makes it, The awful
Speaker 5: times make the good times better.
Speaker 4: As long as you do get some good times at
Speaker 4: some point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I gotta tell you, as a Red Sox fan,
Speaker 2: we were like the lovable losers for years and years
Speaker 2: and years. The fieldser's a kid to how England feels
Speaker 2: about winning a World Cup. And then we started winning
Speaker 2: everything and there's a bit of you that misses the
Speaker 2: hurt and misses the underdog, and now everyone just hates us,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well that's what happens when you get successful. So
Speaker 4: what do you want?
Speaker 5: You want to be successful when trophies have loads of joy,
Speaker 5: or do you want to everyone to hate you?
Speaker 6: It?
Speaker 1: Really it's a tough goal. I think the former.
Speaker 4: I agree, Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly.
Speaker 2: Last last question is playing in Barcelona or playing and
Speaker 2: spaying the most fun thing in the world that seems
Speaker 2: so cool.
Speaker 4: Playing for Barcelon is amazing. I mean, I was there
Speaker 4: for three years. It's it's a monstrously big football club.
Speaker 5: It's a bit of a madhouse, but it's so special,
Speaker 5: and especially when you play those games against Real Madrid.
Speaker 5: Let's we call them the Classic Coast. I mean, it's
Speaker 5: like it's nothing you can imagine. The first one I
Speaker 5: ever played in I scored hat trick, scored three goals,
Speaker 5: in the game and we won.
Speaker 4: We won three two, and there were.
Speaker 5: One hundred and twenty thousand people in the stadium and
Speaker 5: every single one of them was a Barcelona fan.
Speaker 4: There was no away fans.
Speaker 5: There were no because we I don't know whether you
Speaker 5: get that in New American sports, whether you get many
Speaker 5: fans that travel to watch their team play, I don't know.
Speaker 5: But in England we do every you know, we're a
Speaker 5: small country. It's quite easy to get around to be
Speaker 5: awake to the away grounds. But this was like, honestly,
Speaker 5: I had scored two goals in the first five minutes.
Speaker 5: I had goose bumps all over me with the noise
Speaker 5: and that it was so special and those games are
Speaker 5: so big.
Speaker 4: But yeah, my three years there were probably the highlight
Speaker 4: of mine, my career.
Speaker 1: I bet you didn't.
Speaker 2: I didn't didn't pay for your own top us very
Speaker 2: often when you went out happy fan base question.
Speaker 5: They were very sweet. They were very sweet the boss.
Speaker 5: And the weird thing is they were so respectful. They'd
Speaker 5: never like, they wouldn't bother you too much. You know,
Speaker 5: they'd see you and they'd not but they wouldn't. I mean,
Speaker 5: I don't know, that's probably changed now.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think the camera phone changed that and
Speaker 2: everyone should like click click click listen, Gary, I've taken
Speaker 2: up enough of your time. Thank you so much for
Speaker 2: doing the show. Everyone should check out the rest is
Speaker 2: football everything Goalhanger is doing. You guys make amazing shows
Speaker 2: just you know, just a hit machine over there, So
Speaker 2: thank you for your time. Check out the show on Netflix. Also,
Speaker 2: by the way, and enjoy the rest of World Cup.
Speaker 4: Thank you for the plug, and thank you for having
Speaker 4: me joyed it.
Speaker 1: Truly my pleasure.
Speaker 7: Pods in America is a cricket media production. Our show
Speaker 7: was produced by Austin Fisher, Saul Ruben, McKenna Roberts, and
Speaker 7: Faris Safari with re Jerlin, Elijah Cone and Adrian Hill.
Speaker 7: Our team includes Matt de Grote, Ben Hefcote, Charlottelandis, David Toles,
Speaker 7: Mia Kelman, Ryan Young, and Naomi Sengle. Our staff is
Speaker 7: probably unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.
Speaker 6: You