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<v Speaker 1>Your morning news, on the way to work and all

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<v Speaker 1>day in fault check.

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<v Speaker 2>In throughout the day.

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<v Speaker 1>Fifty five KRC, the talk station eight five Here fifty

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<v Speaker 1>five KRC, you talk station. A very happy Friday to

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<v Speaker 1>you intrigued about this book. I'm happy to welcome to

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<v Speaker 1>the fifty five Carcy Morning Show, doctor Charles Kamara, author

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<v Speaker 1>of the book We're going to be talking about Mission

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<v Speaker 1>out of Control and astronauts Odyssey to Fix High Risk

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<v Speaker 1>Organizations and Prevent Tragedy. He is, as the book suggests,

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<v Speaker 1>and astronaut. What a cool thing to say. You are

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<v Speaker 1>research engineer and venor author, educator, Internationally recognized expert, invited

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<v Speaker 1>speaker on subjects regarding engineering, engineering, design, innovation, safety, organizational

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<v Speaker 1>behavior and education. He's got more than sixty technical publications,

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<v Speaker 1>hold nine patents, and over twenty national and international awards

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<v Speaker 1>that could go on for hours on his background. He

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<v Speaker 1>retired from NASA and May twenty nineteen after forty five

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<v Speaker 1>years of continuous research as our continuous service as a

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<v Speaker 1>research engineer technical manager at Langley re Search Center. Who's

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<v Speaker 1>Director of Engineering at Johnson Space Center and Senior Advisor

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<v Speaker 1>for Innovation and Engineering at Development at Langley. Welcome to

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<v Speaker 1>the Morning Show, Doctor Kimarta. It is a pleasure to

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<v Speaker 1>have you on today.

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<v Speaker 2>Good morning, Brian, thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I got it being an astronaut. To me,

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<v Speaker 1>that's just fascinating, and you probably won't. You're a very

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<v Speaker 1>small slice of the entire population. I'm just kind of

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<v Speaker 1>wondering whether you would rather be referred to as astronaut

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<v Speaker 1>doctor Charles Karmonda or doctor Astronaut Charles Commoner, because I

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<v Speaker 1>would always want to put that in when I was

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<v Speaker 1>introducing myself.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, Brian, most people call me Charlie.

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<v Speaker 1>There you go, Well, Charles mission, out of control, astronauts

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<v Speaker 1>O honesty to fit the high risk organization and prevent tragedy.

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<v Speaker 1>First off, what I think I have an understanding as

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<v Speaker 1>to why what prompted you to write this book before

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<v Speaker 1>we start talking about what the book is intended to do.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, as you said, I worked for NASSA for over

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<v Speaker 2>forty five years and it was an amazing organization when

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<v Speaker 2>I was a young researcher at massalignedly, but it changed.

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<v Speaker 2>It lost its way. We stopped doing real applied research.

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<v Speaker 2>We started becoming a production organization, especially on the human

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<v Speaker 2>space flight side, and we started just looking at operating

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<v Speaker 2>vehicles and flying them in space, and we lost our

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<v Speaker 2>touch with our research routs, and we lost our capability

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<v Speaker 2>to actually understand when we had critical problems.

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<v Speaker 1>So am I to understand? You were on the team

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<v Speaker 1>that led the investigation why the Columbia Space Shuttle blew up?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I didn't lead the team. I led one of

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<v Speaker 2>the teams that was investigating the technical cause of the problem,

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<v Speaker 2>and that was the impact. And we used some of

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<v Speaker 2>my good friends Matt Mellis and some of Kelly Carney

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<v Speaker 2>and some of the great people at Glenn Research Center

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<v Speaker 2>right there in Cleveland.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, Well, when I was reading through the materials, I

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<v Speaker 1>did write Boeing down here, because Boeing has been plugged

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<v Speaker 1>with problems. They make the planes, but they don't, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>like for example, let the air pilots know they change

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<v Speaker 1>the software they have, you know, the poor performance in

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<v Speaker 1>terms of manufacturing. They have a product, but they have

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<v Speaker 1>breakdowns in manufacturing that obviously can lead and have led

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<v Speaker 1>to the loss of life. Is that sort of an

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<v Speaker 1>illustration of the of the like a company to whom

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<v Speaker 1>you would focus this book or directed their attention to

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<v Speaker 1>this book.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely a lot of companies. It's a very similar problem

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<v Speaker 2>because what we learned after the Columbia accident was that

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<v Speaker 2>the primary cause of the of the of the accident

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<v Speaker 2>was the culture. And what you saw after the seven

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<v Speaker 2>thirty seven MAX accidents with Boeing is they came to

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<v Speaker 2>the same conclusion. Boeing lost this way, just like National

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<v Speaker 2>loss this way. Technical excellence was no longer and safety

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<v Speaker 2>were no longer the key primary focus of the organization.

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<v Speaker 2>It got bobbed down with the bottom line market share profit.

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<v Speaker 2>That's very similar but different reasons. Became very focused on

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<v Speaker 2>production schedule and budget and keeping the programs alive, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's become a loaded bureaucracy. And what I realized, what

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<v Speaker 2>I learned in the research writing the book, is that

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<v Speaker 2>what other people missed was there's a difference between technical excellence,

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<v Speaker 2>technical people, good engineers, and what I call research engineers.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I described the elements that make up a

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<v Speaker 2>good research, a good learning organization like what Boeing used

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<v Speaker 2>to be, just like NASA was, and how that can

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<v Speaker 2>lead to a very toxiculture which becomes psychologically unsafe. People

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<v Speaker 2>are afraid to speak up, and then bad things happened

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<v Speaker 2>and the accidents recur, just like Challenger and Columbia.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you mentioned bottom line, profit share, market share, and

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<v Speaker 1>profit all being primary dry and to the exclusion of

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<v Speaker 1>perhaps this intense focus on perhaps safety. But on a

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<v Speaker 1>similar note, I kind of think that maybe, like if

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<v Speaker 1>you look at DEI departments, they're focused on culture, and

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<v Speaker 1>they're focused on social issues and issues that transcend any

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<v Speaker 1>given companies primary focus, which would be should be providing

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<v Speaker 1>a quality product and or service to their customers. Is

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<v Speaker 1>that another form of sort of a lack of focus

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<v Speaker 1>or improper direction that we could point to.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, diversity is good, right, it helps us create, It

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<v Speaker 2>helps us come with very innovative solutions. But DEI and

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<v Speaker 2>quoteas and getting away from merit talkers. Yeah, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a good research organization is knowledge is key, and you

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<v Speaker 2>have deference to the people that have that expertise, and

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<v Speaker 2>you always have to develop those skills and maintain those standards.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, are you concerned about the state of education in

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<v Speaker 1>the United States because we seem to be turning out

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<v Speaker 1>young people who just are taught to the test but

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<v Speaker 1>not taught to critically think. I mean, it's one of

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<v Speaker 1>the reasons why I love law school so much because

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<v Speaker 1>it was a socratic method, that back and forth and

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<v Speaker 1>that delving down and looking into and analyzing, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>in that particular case, different areas of law. But it

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<v Speaker 1>was a wonderful teaching method. We don't seem to be

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<v Speaker 1>teaching children logic and reason anymore? Is there a shortage

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<v Speaker 1>of that? Is that part of the cultural problem here?

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<v Speaker 2>You're absolutely correct. When I was resigned that mathif was

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<v Speaker 2>speaking up, I started diving into how do we train

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<v Speaker 2>our young engineers and education in general around the United States.

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<v Speaker 2>As matter of fact, I started a five oh one

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<v Speaker 2>to three CE educational nonprofit cuts called the Ethic Education Foundation,

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<v Speaker 2>where we used a challenge based learning approach. And yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>absolutely correct. Lawyers do this. They think critically, They look

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<v Speaker 2>at all different sides of an argument. And you had

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<v Speaker 2>this free environment where you could have this discourse, you

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<v Speaker 2>could have these disagreements, but you relied on the facts

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<v Speaker 2>and the knowledge and the knowledge that was verified by

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<v Speaker 2>tests and analysis.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So in a corporate environment, moving away from you know, lawyers,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, talking and advocating on behalf of their clients

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<v Speaker 1>and sort of thinking around the different challenges they face

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<v Speaker 1>but in a corporate environment, I think you alluded to

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<v Speaker 1>it earlier, people have this reluctance to hold their hand

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<v Speaker 1>of it and say no, no, that's a dumb idea because

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<v Speaker 1>of the you know, am I going to lose my job?

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<v Speaker 1>Am I going to embarrass my boss? I can't do that.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not going to be the one that cheeks up.

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<v Speaker 2>That's exactly what you're talking about, a psychological safety. Amianmentsid

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<v Speaker 2>wrote a book to Feel this organization about this, and

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<v Speaker 2>I talk about this in my books. How in a

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<v Speaker 2>real true research culture, a true research environment, this is

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<v Speaker 2>this is absolutely critical. And so when I spoke about

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<v Speaker 2>my book and culture to the senior executives at Boeing

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<v Speaker 2>and I told them how ugly the culture was in

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<v Speaker 2>the environment was NASAs. Their eyes were wide open. But

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<v Speaker 2>people were coming up to me and saying, you know what, Charlie,

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<v Speaker 2>the culture is worse at Bowing. And I didn't believe them.

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<v Speaker 2>But that was six months before the first of the

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<v Speaker 2>first y In Air crash of seven thirty seven, and

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<v Speaker 2>then six months later that you had the Ethopian Allines

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<v Speaker 2>crash and the body sell out of Boeing, And so

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<v Speaker 2>what I was trying to tell the Bowie senior executives

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<v Speaker 2>after the seven thirty seven crash, was that you need

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<v Speaker 2>to listen to your people. People are telling you there

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<v Speaker 2>are major problems, but their voices are being muted and

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<v Speaker 2>they're being canceled.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, part of me, let me ask you this, sir.

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<v Speaker 1>And then again I guess is astronaut doctor Charles kamarda

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<v Speaker 1>Mission out of Control and astronauts Odyssey to Fix High

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<v Speaker 1>Risk Organizations and Prevent Tragedies? Sort of the subtitles suggests

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<v Speaker 1>high risk organizations? Who did you write the book for?

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<v Speaker 1>Was it for the public at large? Are you focusing on,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, corporate culture and your leaders and executives within companies.

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<v Speaker 2>Originally I focused on it as a way to help

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<v Speaker 2>fix NASA, but what I realized was when NASA wasn't listening,

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<v Speaker 2>there were many organizations that have this very similar problem.

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<v Speaker 2>And so the second half of the book I talk

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<v Speaker 2>about ways that we could fix this problem, how we

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<v Speaker 2>could use technology, how we could to train people differently,

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<v Speaker 2>how we can build what I call these five key

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<v Speaker 2>principles of a research culture.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I guess there's probably you know, using Boeing as

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<v Speaker 1>an illustration, and NASA's an illustration there. I would imagine

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<v Speaker 1>there is a different mindset among the employees that in

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<v Speaker 1>the private sector, Yeah, you run the risk of losing

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<v Speaker 1>your job, you run the risk of getting fired for incompetence.

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<v Speaker 1>But I would think in a government environment, you're less

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<v Speaker 1>likely to face any well penalty for maybe not doing

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<v Speaker 1>work or for maybe causing a problem or something. There's

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<v Speaker 1>a sort of a protection element in governm jobs. It

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<v Speaker 1>seems to not exist in the private sector. Is there

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<v Speaker 1>a distinction between them, and along the lines of what

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<v Speaker 1>you're talking about, it's.

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<v Speaker 2>Not really, Because you know, I spoke up after I

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<v Speaker 2>flew in space. I became director of engineering, and when

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<v Speaker 2>I saw problems with safety, I spoke up in a

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<v Speaker 2>flight readiness review and I was reassigned three days later. So,

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<v Speaker 2>if you can imagine an astronaut being silenced, it can

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<v Speaker 2>happen to anyone. And while you don't might lose your job,

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<v Speaker 2>you might lose your position, you might lose your voice,

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<v Speaker 2>and you're placed in a terrible situation where you no

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<v Speaker 2>longer can do the job that you loved. People will

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<v Speaker 2>not treat you the same because you're no longer you're

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<v Speaker 2>a piranha, you're a pariah, your persona non grata.

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<v Speaker 1>Fair enough, well, doctor, Obviously in the book, you identify

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<v Speaker 1>the general concepts we're talking about the problem that we face,

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<v Speaker 1>and I presume that you offer and outline solutions to

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<v Speaker 1>these problems, practical solutions that people in the business world

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<v Speaker 1>can incorporate.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely. I have key things for leaders to look for

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<v Speaker 2>signs that the culture is going awry. I talk about

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<v Speaker 2>technical use of technology to help us identify when an

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<v Speaker 2>individual team, because it only takes one small team to

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<v Speaker 2>be dysfunctional, like the team that was working on the

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<v Speaker 2>ownings or the team that was analyzing the impact of

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<v Speaker 2>foam on Columbia. You have one dysfunctional team and it

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<v Speaker 2>could cause a tragedy. So I highlight several ideas for

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<v Speaker 2>how you build a psychologically safe environment, a knowledge based

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<v Speaker 2>hierarchy where you encourage people to fail and learn by failure,

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<v Speaker 2>and how you're transparent, how you share information openly and

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<v Speaker 2>you encourage competing ideas.

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<v Speaker 1>I love the sound of it. It sounds practical and

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<v Speaker 1>logical and reasonable to me. Astronaut doctor Charles Kamarta, author

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<v Speaker 1>of Mission out of Control and astronauts Odyssey to Fix

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<v Speaker 1>high risk organization and prevent tragedy. Doctor. We have your

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<v Speaker 1>book on my blog page, fifty five KRC dot com.

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<v Speaker 1>I sounds to me like there's a lot of business

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<v Speaker 1>owners out there in my audience. I would love to

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<v Speaker 1>get a copy of this, and I'm sure they will.

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<v Speaker 2>Well.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you for spending time with my listeners and I

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<v Speaker 1>today and identifying this problem so we can work on solutions, sir,

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<v Speaker 1>That's what it's all about.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you very much for having me Brian.

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<v Speaker 1>My pleasure, Absolutely, my pleasure. It's eight eighteen right now,

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<v Speaker 1>fifty five KRC Detalk Station. Feel free to call. I

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<v Speaker 1>had a couple of callers online as we went into

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<v Speaker 1>the break. If you guys want to call back, Joe'll

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<v Speaker 1>open up the phone lines and I'll be happy to

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<v Speaker 1>talk with you. Otherwise I get to pick the subject

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<v Speaker 1>matter five one, three, seven, four, nine, fifty five hundred,

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<v Speaker 1>eight hundred eighty two to three talk pound five fifty

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<v Speaker 1>on AT and T phones, fifty.

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<v Speaker 2>Five KRC dot com.

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<v Speaker 1>These times of massive inflation have people just like you strapped.

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<v Speaker 2>As far as my debt, I was drowning in