Speaker 1: Welcome to this week's edition of The Path Went Chili.
Speaker 1: We're getting close to the holidays, and as you can imagine,
Speaker 1: because she has a newborn baby, Ashley is quite busy
Speaker 1: preparing for Christmas. So for the next couple of weeks,
Speaker 1: it's just going to be Jules and I and we'll
Speaker 1: follow our standard format where I tell her all the
Speaker 1: details about her case and she gives off her live reaction.
Speaker 1: And today we're going to be talking about a case
Speaker 1: that is nearly solved but not quite as kind of
Speaker 1: a unique situation. Have you ever heard of the murder
Speaker 1: of Roger Dean.
Speaker 2: I don't think so. Well.
Speaker 1: I covered it on The Trail Went Cold about five
Speaker 1: and a half years ago, and it was featured on
Speaker 1: Unsolved Mysteries, and it was nearly four years ago when
Speaker 1: they finally had in rest in the case. But there
Speaker 1: is still hasn't been a trial or a conclusive resolution,
Speaker 1: though I'm hoping there'll be sometime in the future. But
Speaker 1: there have been so many wild twists and turns throughout
Speaker 1: this case that I thought we should do a series
Speaker 1: of episodes on it and discuss it. Well.
Speaker 2: I'm excited to hear all about it. There's a possibility
Speaker 2: that I may have listened to your episode that many
Speaker 2: years ago, but all the other episodes that I've listened
Speaker 2: to since and every other case. It sort of is
Speaker 2: like makes everything so convoluted in my mind that once
Speaker 2: you get into it, maybe I'll recognize it and maybe
Speaker 2: I won't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm thinking there is a possibility you may have
Speaker 1: heard it, but since I released it five and a
Speaker 1: half years ago, you may have forgot it. But it
Speaker 1: may come back to you when I start sharing all
Speaker 1: the details. So, this particular crime took place in Littleton, Colorado,
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty five. The victim was Roger Dean, who
Speaker 1: was fifty one years old and was the co owner
Speaker 1: of a food brokerage firm which sold food products to
Speaker 1: a grocery chains. He lived in the Lone Tree subdivision
Speaker 1: with his fifty year old wife, Doris Gene, who went
Speaker 1: by the nickname DJ. They've been married for twenty six years.
Speaker 1: At this point, they had a twenty four year old
Speaker 1: daughter named Tammy, who has since married and gotten away,
Speaker 1: but the couple have recently dealt with a lot of trauma.
Speaker 1: They had a twenty two year old son named Troy,
Speaker 1: who was killed in January of nineteen eighty three when
Speaker 1: his car got into an accident at a train crossing,
Speaker 1: and this was particularly difficult for DJ because she actually
Speaker 1: lost both of her parents in a car accident way
Speaker 1: back in nineteen sixty nine, so losing her son in
Speaker 1: that fashion brought back so many terrible flashbacks. And around
Speaker 1: this time period, DJ had also discovered that Roger had
Speaker 1: been having a secret affair with his secretary, but he
Speaker 1: apologized and assured her that the affair was over, and
Speaker 1: because they had been through so much trauma and lost
Speaker 1: their son, DJ pretty much decided, Okay, this is a
Speaker 1: bad obstacle, but we're going to move past and make
Speaker 1: it work. So she ultimately decided to stay with her husband.
Speaker 2: My heart goes out to DJ, that is a lot
Speaker 2: to deal with. It's enough of a tragedy dealing with
Speaker 2: the loss of your parents, but no parents should ever
Speaker 2: have to deal with the loss of a child, especially
Speaker 2: in a similar accident slash tragedy such as like being
Speaker 2: killed at a train crossing. It's there's no words to
Speaker 2: describe how awful that must have been for her. And
Speaker 2: then the cherry on top of it is to find
Speaker 2: out that her husband Roger is having an affair with
Speaker 2: his secretary. People always want to make it black and
Speaker 2: white when there's an affair, like oh, he cheated, so
Speaker 2: leave him. But it isn't that simple when it comes
Speaker 2: to marriages. There's a lot of other factors that go
Speaker 2: into the why, and couples can grow apart, and sometimes
Speaker 2: an affair can be a catalyst for people growing closer
Speaker 2: because they recommit to that relationship.
Speaker 1: That might have been what happened. I don't know when
Speaker 1: exactly the affair started, but if it started after Roger
Speaker 1: lost his son, that that could have been a contributing
Speaker 1: factor where he was dealing with so much trauma and
Speaker 1: grief that he had to see companionship from another woman.
Speaker 1: So maybe that was DJ's rationale, saying that he's suffering too,
Speaker 1: and he did this because he needed someone else to
Speaker 1: turn to. So I'm willing to forgive him and move on.
Speaker 2: Often with the death of a child, you see the
Speaker 2: dissolution of a relationship, and I think it's just because
Speaker 2: each person is on their grieving journey and it will
Speaker 2: either bring you closer together or it's going to tear
Speaker 2: everything apart. And I think potentially in this case, maybe
Speaker 2: the fact that he had this affair was his way
Speaker 2: of acting out, his way of expressing his grief and
Speaker 2: being self destructive in that kind of a capacity where
Speaker 2: he was risking his relationship and then maybe being able
Speaker 2: to dial that back and go, wow, I'm not only
Speaker 2: hurting this person that I love, DJ, who I've committed
Speaker 2: my life to, but I'm hurting myself and maybe we
Speaker 2: really want to give this a try and actually commit
Speaker 2: to each other. So I think that in all of
Speaker 2: that grief and pain and betrayal in this case, sometimes
Speaker 2: something beautiful can grow out.
Speaker 1: Of that, and as possible, that could have happened, but
Speaker 1: unfortunately DJ's trauma would only get worse because she would
Speaker 1: wind up losing her husband as well. So I'm going
Speaker 1: to describe the events of what happened here. On November
Speaker 1: the twenty first, nineteen eighty five, DJ woke up and
Speaker 1: took a bath shortly after seven am. I think she
Speaker 1: assumed that her husband had gone to work, But then
Speaker 1: when she got out and was drawing herself off, she
Speaker 1: heard Roger call her into their bedroom, and she was
Speaker 1: shocked to see a male intruder there wearing a ski
Speaker 1: mask standing behind Roger with a gun. He ordered Roger
Speaker 1: to tie DJ up with some rope and blind folder
Speaker 1: with duct tape, and after she was placed on the bed,
Speaker 1: the two men exited the bedroom and she thought she
Speaker 1: could hear Roger and the gunman getting into some sort
Speaker 1: of argument, but she couldn't make out what they were saying.
Speaker 1: And then a few minutes later, the intruder returned to
Speaker 1: the bedroom and she could hear him frantically searching through
Speaker 1: the doors and he was yelling at DJ, how much
Speaker 1: money do you have in your savings account? And DJ
Speaker 1: did answer. He went into the hallway, and then she
Speaker 1: soon overheard the gunman yelling at Roger that he owed
Speaker 1: them money, and Roger responded by saying that he had
Speaker 1: thirty thousand dollars in his account. So the gunman told
Speaker 1: Roger that we're both going to go to the bank
Speaker 1: to get it. But it wasn't long before DJ heard
Speaker 1: a series of gunshots, and after hearing the sound of
Speaker 1: someone fleeing the house, DJ finally decided to flee the
Speaker 1: bedroom while she was still blindfolded and with her hands tied,
Speaker 1: and she managed to make it downstairs and egsit the
Speaker 1: house and By this point, a neighbor came out and
Speaker 1: was able to untire and remove the duct tape from
Speaker 1: her eyes, but then she was horrified to discover that
Speaker 1: Roger was lying on the front lawn with six gunshots
Speaker 1: in him.
Speaker 2: Oh, poor dj I can't even imagine how awful it
Speaker 2: would be. You get out of the shower, you think
Speaker 2: your husband's gone, you're surprised by your husband, and then
Speaker 2: you see a masked intruder. And it seems as though
Speaker 2: they're arguing as if potentially they know each other, especially
Speaker 2: if the intruder is saying that Roger owes him money,
Speaker 2: but it seems a little odd. He's got thirty thousand
Speaker 2: dollars in his account. Why would he not pay this
Speaker 2: person if he did truly owe the money? And then
Speaker 2: we think that they're going to go to the bank,
Speaker 2: but then we hear gunshots. So what could have happened
Speaker 2: in the interim. Was it that Roger chose to fight back,
Speaker 2: and maybe the gunman panicked and just emptied the clip
Speaker 2: into Roger rather than really thinking about, Hey, I need
Speaker 2: him alive.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's going to be one of the most ambiguous
Speaker 1: things about this case is whether or not Roger and
Speaker 1: his killer knew each other, and they would find out
Speaker 1: that one of the bullets Roger had was in his arm,
Speaker 1: and they discovered that the first shot that was fired
Speaker 1: off the bullet ricocheted off the banister and struck Roger
Speaker 1: in the arm, and I think Roger was able to
Speaker 1: flee and make it out the front door, and that's
Speaker 1: when the intruder fired five more shots into a which
Speaker 1: ultimately killed him. And he also had some tape wrapped
Speaker 1: around his ankles, which suggested that maybe the killer was
Speaker 1: planning to bound him and maybe take him in the
Speaker 1: trunk for a trip to the bank. And then Roger
Speaker 1: tried to escape, and I'm thinking that if he really
Speaker 1: was planning to get money, that maybe he was only
Speaker 1: planning to fire a warning shot. But then when the
Speaker 1: bullet rick hacheded off the banister and hit Roger in
Speaker 1: the arm, he realized, Okay, we can't go to the
Speaker 1: bank and withdraw money if he's got a gunshot wound
Speaker 1: in his arm, and that's why he decided to kill
Speaker 1: him and flee the scene without getting any money.
Speaker 2: What a bizarre scenario. So there's only one person and
Speaker 2: you're planning to do this whole we're going to go
Speaker 2: to the bank and take money out, You're gonna have
Speaker 2: to go to a teller to take out thirty thousand dollars.
Speaker 2: You could just go to an ATM and be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: I want to withdraw thirty thousand dollars. Like that's not
Speaker 2: going to work. You're probably only going to be able
Speaker 2: to take out a couple grand and then you're gonna
Speaker 2: have to go to a teller. So either this person
Speaker 2: was like, we're just going to go to any ATM
Speaker 2: and we're going to take out a couple grand, what
Speaker 2: would be his motivation in not saying something to the
Speaker 2: teller or not signaling somebody something because you don't have
Speaker 2: another individual who's going to stay on DJ. Right, it
Speaker 2: would be one thing if you were like, I've got
Speaker 2: my buddy here and he's watching DJ any wrong move
Speaker 2: and she's dead. But that didn't seem to be the case.
Speaker 2: He was just going to bind her and put tape
Speaker 2: over her eyes and leave her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the thing that doesn't make sense because we
Speaker 1: have seen a lot of other plans like this where
Speaker 1: one person will remain buhind at the house with the victims.
Speaker 1: Love one or their family and say that I will
Speaker 1: kill you if you try to go to the police
Speaker 1: or tell anyone at the bank what's going on. But
Speaker 1: this was committed by one man. And another thing that
Speaker 1: strikes me weird is that this took place at seven am,
Speaker 1: and from my experience, banks generally don't open until at
Speaker 1: least eight nine o'clock, so it just seems way too
Speaker 1: early to kidnap someone and take them to a bank
Speaker 1: to withdraw money from their account.
Speaker 2: I feel like banking hours have got better in the
Speaker 2: last ten years, but I feel like, I don't know,
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty five of their baby, but yeah, but
Speaker 2: still I think that the banking hours weren't as good
Speaker 2: because I think when I was a teenager, it was
Speaker 2: like you'd be hard pressed to get into a bank
Speaker 2: before nine am. So yeah, seven am seems like an
Speaker 2: odd choice. And I don't know how many ATMs there
Speaker 2: were at the time, and like what their limit would
Speaker 2: have been to take out. But I just I don't
Speaker 2: think that anybody can go to a bank machine and
Speaker 2: get out thirty grand I just don't think that there's
Speaker 2: that much money in these machines that they would allow
Speaker 2: anyone individual to take that much out.
Speaker 1: Oh, definitely not. And if you try to withdraw that
Speaker 1: much in cash with a teller, it's a long process,
Speaker 1: I think. I assume you have to sign forms or
Speaker 1: something like that and wait for them to count the money.
Speaker 1: So it's really not an easy thing to do if
Speaker 1: you're trying to get someone to withdraw the money against
Speaker 1: their will while their wife is tied up at home.
Speaker 1: But as we're going to talk about, people have wondered
Speaker 1: if there were ulterior motives to this whole crime, and
Speaker 1: that this whole withdrawing thirty thousand dollars from the bank
Speaker 1: was just some weird cover story. So it would turn
Speaker 1: out that the attacker removed his mask at some point
Speaker 1: and left it behind at the house. Of course, since
Speaker 1: DJ barely got a look at the mass gunman before
Speaker 1: the duct tape was put over her eyes, she wasn't
Speaker 1: able to provide much of a description. But there were
Speaker 1: a bunch of people in the neighborhood who said that
Speaker 1: they saw an unfamiliar car parked next to the road
Speaker 1: down the street from Roger's house during the early morning hours,
Speaker 1: which they thought looked out of place, but they weren't
Speaker 1: able to give consistent descriptions, as some people thought it
Speaker 1: was a nineteen sixty eight Pontiac, some people thought it
Speaker 1: was a nineteen seventy six Oldsmobile, So there really wasn't
Speaker 1: much to go on, and so they really didn't know
Speaker 1: who did this, So of course they started looking into
Speaker 1: Roger's background, and what was weird is that the police
Speaker 1: began to wonder if this might have been some sort
Speaker 1: of staged kidnapping gone horribly wrong, because even though Roger
Speaker 1: had been tied up with ropes, they discovered that twine
Speaker 1: fiber was embedded in only one of his wrists, and
Speaker 1: even though he had been wearing contact lenses that morning,
Speaker 1: they actually found Roger's glasses in the bedroom and they
Speaker 1: were covered in duct tape, even though there didn't seem
Speaker 1: to be any reason for Roger to put on his
Speaker 1: glasses in the first place, and I don't think DJ
Speaker 1: said he was wearing his glasses when he came into
Speaker 1: the bedroom that morning. And it was also Roger's standard
Speaker 1: work day routine to leave at around six six point fifteen,
Speaker 1: so it was very out of the ordinary for Roger
Speaker 1: to still be there at seven am, and neighbors would
Speaker 1: report seeing Roger drinking coffee inside the garage near seven
Speaker 1: o'clock by while lifting up the garage door, which seemed
Speaker 1: very out of character. And he even found his full
Speaker 1: coffee cup just lying on top of some newspapers on
Speaker 1: a trash can in the garage. So it almost appeared
Speaker 1: that Roger was expecting someone to show up, and that
Speaker 1: maybe he was planning to like stage a kidnapping or
Speaker 1: something like that, or maybe he was planning a secret
Speaker 1: meeting with this man, but for whatever reason, things went
Speaker 1: horribly wrong and he wound up getting shot.
Speaker 2: This is so strange the fact that he wouldn't tell DJ.
Speaker 2: If you were going to be bringing somebody to the
Speaker 2: house and you were going to be meeting them enough
Speaker 2: so that you're going to have the garage door open,
Speaker 2: you're waiting, you're late to go to work, it sounds
Speaker 2: like you definitely have something scheduled, you're expecting someone. Why
Speaker 2: wouldn't you tell your wife? That's a big question. And
Speaker 2: even just to say, like, hey, I'm gonna be late
Speaker 2: for work, someone's gonna be popping in. They're just gonna
Speaker 2: be coming into the driveway or the garage, like you're
Speaker 2: not going to see them don't worry about it. And
Speaker 2: if you see an unfamiliar car in the driveway, don't panic.
Speaker 2: I would think that you would want to say those things,
Speaker 2: like I live in a condo. But if I lived
Speaker 2: in a house and my husband didn't tell me those things,
Speaker 2: I would be really bothered by that, especially if you're showering,
Speaker 2: you're thinking that you're alone, and then you could just
Speaker 2: walk out and there he is, like, I don't know,
Speaker 2: it just seems a little odd.
Speaker 1: Yeah. This is the part of the story that no
Speaker 1: one has ever been able to figure out, is like,
Speaker 1: what were Roger's alterior motives? Because I know that DJ
Speaker 1: said that they heard an argument about this guy saying
Speaker 1: that Roger owed him money. So maybe he was expecting
Speaker 1: this guy to show up to the house and he
Speaker 1: was going to pay him, or maybe say I'm going
Speaker 1: to pay you later or something like that, I just
Speaker 1: need time to get the money. But why would he
Speaker 1: do that while DJ was home? I know this was
Speaker 1: time so that this meeting could have taken place while
Speaker 1: DJ was in the bathtub, So maybe he was hoping, well,
Speaker 1: this guy will show up, we'll talk in the garage,
Speaker 1: and DJ we'll never know. He was here, But why
Speaker 1: wouldn't you set the meeting somewhere else? Why would you
Speaker 1: set it up at your own house? So it just
Speaker 1: does it just seems weird that he would have this
Speaker 1: secret meeting and not tell his wife about it. And
Speaker 1: if it was so secretive, why even have it at
Speaker 1: the house to begin with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and in nineteen eighty five, it's not like you're
Speaker 2: going to get like a last minute text from someone
Speaker 2: and be like, Hey, I'm going to stop by. Can
Speaker 2: we discuss this thing that we've been discussing. I really
Speaker 2: need a face to face with you, because you'd have
Speaker 2: to call somebody's landline and like schedule something way beforehand
Speaker 2: without that technology. There there's no chance that it was
Speaker 2: just this last minute thing that just like slipped his
Speaker 2: mind that he couldn't tell DJ teams really strange, and
Speaker 2: you've got to wonder why, Like maybe they did have
Speaker 2: some kind of business dealing and who knows what could
Speaker 2: have transpired. Maybe he did owe him money, maybe not.
Speaker 2: Maybe there was just a miscommunication and things didn't go
Speaker 2: forward the way that that other individual thought that they should,
Speaker 2: and so he was demanding money. I don't know, Like
Speaker 2: I can't think of what Roger's motivation would be and
Speaker 2: like why he would go to work late. It seems
Speaker 2: like there's something planned.
Speaker 1: Well, here's where it gets weird, because, as you recall,
Speaker 1: DJ said she heard Roger telling the gunman that he
Speaker 1: had thirty thousand dollars in the bank, and they would
Speaker 1: eventually discover that Roger had a secret bank account and
Speaker 1: that he had secretly transferred thirty two thousand dollars from
Speaker 1: his company's bank account and deposited it in this private account.
Speaker 1: And DJ didn't even know about it. She didn't even
Speaker 1: know that this account existed. So you have to think
Speaker 1: since he mentioned that specific amount thirty thous and that
Speaker 1: maybe there was something weird going on, and that this
Speaker 1: could have been like a stage kidnapping where he would
Speaker 1: pretend that this guy kidnapped them and force them to
Speaker 1: withdraw the money. But then Roger would just keep the
Speaker 1: thirty two thousand dollars for himself, claim it was stolen,
Speaker 1: and that when he told the story to the police,
Speaker 1: DJ would pretty much act as his witness because she
Speaker 1: saw the gunman and she was tied up all that
Speaker 1: all this was going on. But the problem is that
Speaker 1: I can't think of a motive for why he would
Speaker 1: do this because obviously, if you're transferring this thirty two
Speaker 1: thousand dollars to a secret account, nobody knows about it,
Speaker 1: so why would you pretend that it's stolen to cover
Speaker 1: for it? And it just seems like a lot of
Speaker 1: trouble to go to for just thirty two thousand dollars,
Speaker 1: because if you have it in your company's bank account,
Speaker 1: then why are you just going through this whole charade?
Speaker 1: So I know that there was something going on because
Speaker 1: of this secret bank account, but I don't know if
Speaker 1: i'd buy this whole staged kidnapping theory gone wrong.
Speaker 2: Let's say that's like what like seventy five thousand in
Speaker 2: today's money around there. I'm just gonna pull a figure
Speaker 2: out of nowhere. It seems like a lot to go
Speaker 2: through for seventy five thousand dollars. I don't know what
Speaker 2: his financial situation was, but I could see a world
Speaker 2: where if you were embezzling money, you're starting to freak
Speaker 2: out every single day that that is going to get
Speaker 2: traced back to you. And so I could see a
Speaker 2: scenario where he kind of constructs this whole plan where
Speaker 2: he's going to have this narrative that he was kidnapped
Speaker 2: and the money was taken and that's where the money went. Okay,
Speaker 2: I could see that. But then you have a guy
Speaker 2: that you hire, I'm assuming somebody you know, I would guess,
Speaker 2: and then you have him bring a real gun that
Speaker 2: actually has bullets in it, Like, why would you even
Speaker 2: need to load the gun if this were the case
Speaker 2: that's true?
Speaker 1: Yeah, like the guy obviously he fired one shot that
Speaker 1: hit Roger in the arm, but you don't need to
Speaker 1: bring a loaded gun to begin with if you're in
Speaker 1: on it together, so you could just stage the whole thing.
Speaker 1: So yeah, And I don't know why things would go
Speaker 1: so badly that this guy would just suddenly decide to
Speaker 1: kill Rob without getting any money. So it could be
Speaker 1: that the thirty two thousand dollars is just red hairing.
Speaker 1: It has no relation to the case. And they never
Speaker 1: actually accused Roduler of embezzling it. I mean it was
Speaker 1: his company. He took it out of the account, but
Speaker 1: they didn't find out any evidence of the eddy of
Speaker 1: financial problems or that he was doing anything illegal or
Speaker 1: stealing money, so that the whole plan there doesn't seem
Speaker 1: to be any real logical motive for it.
Speaker 2: But if you've transferred that money from your company into
Speaker 2: your personal account, I would think there's a potential for
Speaker 2: insurance fraud. You would be claiming some kind of insurance
Speaker 2: on that thirty thousand dollars and expect that to be
Speaker 2: recouped if somebody held you for ransom, because if you're
Speaker 2: going to have some kind of business insurance that I
Speaker 2: think would protect you in a scenario such as this,
Speaker 2: So I could see that being a motivator.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true, where he pretends that the thirty two
Speaker 1: thousand dollars is missing while holding on to it, then
Speaker 1: gets an extra payout from the insurance. What that would
Speaker 1: be like maybe sixty four thousand dollars in total. And
Speaker 1: is it really worth all this trouble? It's I mean,
Speaker 1: even in today's money, that would be what like over
Speaker 1: one hundred thousand dollars. I mean, do you really need
Speaker 1: to go through all this trouble?
Speaker 2: I mean, I have no idea. It just depends on
Speaker 2: what his financial situation was at the time. And it
Speaker 2: doesn't seem as though, aside from the affair that he had,
Speaker 2: from what we know about him thus far, that he
Speaker 2: acted impulsively or erratically. Do you know any other incidents
Speaker 2: besides the affair that would kind of paint him as
Speaker 2: somebody that would potentially just make rash decisions and act
Speaker 2: on impulse.
Speaker 1: Not really like all they really have in the background
Speaker 1: is his affair. I mean, it is kind of sketchy
Speaker 1: that he would transfer this money without telling his wife
Speaker 1: about it, but there's no evidence that he did anything
Speaker 1: impulse of like steel money or anything illegal. So he
Speaker 1: had an insurance policy on himself for DJ and his
Speaker 1: daughter Tammy, So of course they were thoroughly investigated, but
Speaker 1: they were eventually cleared as suspects. So obviously, like an
Speaker 1: insurance policy, was not a motive for his wife or
Speaker 1: his daughter to have them killed. But they did find
Speaker 1: out that even though Roger had told his DJ that
Speaker 1: his affair with the secretary was long over, they had
Speaker 1: apparently been seen together the week before Roger's murder, even
Speaker 1: though he had assured her that he was going to
Speaker 1: stay away from her, and I'm pretty sure that she
Speaker 1: was no longer working for him as well. And they
Speaker 1: would try to question the secretary and her own son,
Speaker 1: and apparently they were very uncooperative and left town a
Speaker 1: short time after the murder took place, and police just
Speaker 1: says we have never really officially ruled them out of suspects,
Speaker 1: as evidence of their involvement was described as quote unquote inconclusive.
Speaker 1: But it's kind of interesting to find out that the
Speaker 1: secretary had a son, because obviously this crime was committed
Speaker 1: by a man, and you kind of wonder, could this
Speaker 1: son have been motivated to do something like try to
Speaker 1: steal money from the man that had been having an
Speaker 1: affair with his mother.
Speaker 2: It's possible too that if you were to stage something
Speaker 2: like this, I mean, it's I guess both scenarios are possible.
Speaker 2: He could have conspired with his mother to legitimately try
Speaker 2: to steal money from him, because potentially he blew her
Speaker 2: off after and I don't know if she got fired
Speaker 2: because of that, which is sort of like you have
Speaker 2: an affair with your boss and you get fired, where's
Speaker 2: HR department? Because that is the legitimate reason to buying somebody.
Speaker 2: But okay, so either their affair is still going on
Speaker 2: and it's one big conspiracy and they're all in it together,
Speaker 2: or he truly did blow her off after and really
Speaker 2: try to make things work with DJ and maybe she
Speaker 2: was better about it and she told her son about it,
Speaker 2: and they're like, well, he's a perfect mark, and who knows.
Speaker 2: Maybe she met up with him to try to get
Speaker 2: some information and discuss a potential meeting and that's when
Speaker 2: her son showed up rather than her or something to that.
Speaker 1: I mean, when you see the whole scenario of Roger
Speaker 1: standing in his garage expecting someone, it could be a
Speaker 1: thing where the son privately contacted Roger and says, I
Speaker 1: want to speak to you about what's been going on
Speaker 1: with you and my mother, and he says, okay, let's
Speaker 1: do it privately in the garage. Well, DJ's in the
Speaker 1: bath and he's not expecting this guy to show up
Speaker 1: with a gun to try to have him killed and
Speaker 1: have money stolen from him. But again, if Roger wanted
Speaker 1: to do this, I would think he would schedule a
Speaker 1: private meeting somewhere else away from his house. So the
Speaker 1: case would remain called for nearly five years they didn't
Speaker 1: have any strong leads or any strong idea of who
Speaker 1: the perpetrator would have been, but then it would be
Speaker 1: escalated to the next level. On July the twenty first,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety when DJ received an anonymous letter in the
Speaker 1: mail written by someone claiming to be Roger's killer. And
Speaker 1: here's a quote from an excerpt of the letter. Quote,
Speaker 1: I didn't kill you, even knowing you could be a
Speaker 1: witness if we were ever caught, but that will never happen.
Speaker 1: By now you should realize that I'm one of the
Speaker 1: two persons who sees your lone Tree house with order
Speaker 1: to kill Roger if he didn't pay his debt. You
Speaker 1: were right with one of us end quote. And then
Speaker 1: he demanded ten thousand dollars and said that if DJ
Speaker 1: did not pay, he would go after her daughter, Tammy.
Speaker 2: That sounds pretty messed up, yes.
Speaker 1: And now you can imagine the trauma because Tammy is
Speaker 1: like her last surviving member of her family, because she's
Speaker 1: lost her husband, she's lost her son, she lost her
Speaker 1: parents several years ago. And what's interesting about the timing
Speaker 1: is that when Tammy got married, she had moved away
Speaker 1: to Arizona. And I don't know if her marriage ended
Speaker 1: or something, or if it went wrong, but shortly before
Speaker 1: the letter was sent, she had actually returned back to Littleton,
Speaker 1: Colorado to be closer to her mother. And the writer
Speaker 1: also provided a lot of details in the letter that
Speaker 1: suggested that he knew Tammy personally had been stalking her.
Speaker 1: Here's another excerpt, word for a word quote do you
Speaker 1: know that I had met your daughter Tammy on a
Speaker 1: few occasions. I have followed her to New York, Arizona
Speaker 1: and Costa Mesa. She is a very attractive blonde and
Speaker 1: a good model. Do not make me kill her. Your
Speaker 1: son is dead, your husband is dead. Do not risk
Speaker 1: your daughter. She is the last one left. If you
Speaker 1: go to the police, I'll wait until they can no
Speaker 1: longer protect her and kill her. End quote.
Speaker 2: My god, poor DJ, Like, what an awful letter to receive,
Speaker 2: and what a creep this is giving, Like Watcher Vibes
Speaker 2: meets Long Island serial killer who would call the siblings
Speaker 2: of his victims and like terrorize them. It's just retraumatizing
Speaker 2: DJ over and over again. And Tammy must have been like,
Speaker 2: is my life in danger as well? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Exactly. And the timing of it, it just makes sense
Speaker 1: because you're wondering if this guy was so desperate for money,
Speaker 1: like why would he wait nearly five years to send
Speaker 1: this threatening letter to DJ? But I think he specifically
Speaker 1: waited for her to return from Arizona to Lyttleton, thinking that, well,
Speaker 1: if she's in another city, it'll be harder to threaten her.
Speaker 1: But now that she's closer to her mother and she's
Speaker 1: a lot more vulnerable, this is when I can make
Speaker 1: this extortion attempt. And he gave space instructions for DJ
Speaker 1: not to call the police and said that he would
Speaker 1: be in touch with her in six days. But in
Speaker 1: spite of this, DJ and Tammy were just so terrified
Speaker 1: that they contacted the Douglas County Sheriff's Department and the
Speaker 1: Denver branch of the FBI and turned over the letters
Speaker 1: so that they could be put under surveillance.
Speaker 2: Well, fair enough, I would be doing the same thing.
Speaker 2: I feel like, please have the police have a car
Speaker 2: out there, the FBI, everybody, because what if this person
Speaker 2: decides to act. And DJ must have been living in
Speaker 2: this perpetual state of fear. Every single person that she
Speaker 2: loves has been torn away from her, every single person.
Speaker 2: I can't imagine how that would feel. You would have
Speaker 2: difficulty getting close to anyone new, I would assume, because
Speaker 2: you would likely think that, oh, everybody who gets close
Speaker 2: to me dies.
Speaker 1: Oh exactly, And she's already been living this way for
Speaker 1: five years because she knows her husband's killer is still
Speaker 1: out there, but enough time is fast that she's probably
Speaker 1: gotten more comfortable thinking, Okay, well, at least he's long
Speaker 1: gone and he's not going to come back after me.
Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden, she gets a threatening
Speaker 1: letter and this person is saying that Roger owed me money,
Speaker 1: so you are obliged to pay me one hundred thousand dollars,
Speaker 1: which seems weird since Roger had pretty much said I
Speaker 1: will give you thirty thousand dollars the first time around,
Speaker 1: and then this guy suddenly ups the amount so he
Speaker 1: once DJ contacted the FBI, they started putting taps on
Speaker 1: her phone and he started calling her and saying that
Speaker 1: because of Roger's debt, you owe me this money. And
Speaker 1: it took a while before they could coordinate it because
Speaker 1: he would call her like a few times to threaten her.
Speaker 1: And I think it was finally weeks later where he
Speaker 1: finally provided instructions for where to drop the one hundred
Speaker 1: thousand dollars.
Speaker 2: And so obviously did they go ahead with this plan
Speaker 2: where they were going to do this like fake drop.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, they finally did it. It was on August
Speaker 1: the nineteenth, which would have been I think nearly a
Speaker 1: full month after he originally sent the letter, and he
Speaker 1: told her to drive to a phone booth out of
Speaker 1: supermarket located twenty miles from her home, and of course
Speaker 1: the FBI set up a surveillance operation, and after she
Speaker 1: arrived at a phone booth, DJ waited around a while
Speaker 1: until he called her on the phone booth and gave
Speaker 1: instructions to take the money to an apartment complex in
Speaker 1: downtown Denver and leave the money in an alley behind
Speaker 1: the building. So of course DJ went there. She dropped
Speaker 1: bundle containing one hundred thousand dollars before she left, and
Speaker 1: the FBI kept their eyes on the money for a
Speaker 1: long period of time, but of course no one showed
Speaker 1: up to collect it. But shortly thereafter, well DJ was
Speaker 1: still out, Tammy received a phone call from this guy
Speaker 1: who started screaming obscenities of her angry because I guess
Speaker 1: he had noticed that the FBI was on to him,
Speaker 1: so he was so angry, saying, your mother did not
Speaker 1: follow instructions and because of that, I'm going to kill you.
Speaker 1: And then he gave one more call to DJ, saying
Speaker 1: that one of these days, your daughter will be dead.
Speaker 1: I know you're under surveillance now, but they can't protect
Speaker 1: you forever. It may not occur for six months, it
Speaker 1: may not occur for six years, but rest assured that
Speaker 1: sooner or later I will kill you your daughter. And after
Speaker 1: this call ended, this was the last time she ever
Speaker 1: heard from him.
Speaker 2: Well, that's terrifying, and I mean sooner or later we
Speaker 2: all die. So when he's saying it might be six months,
Speaker 2: it might be six years, it's like, I don't know
Speaker 2: if you ever have the intention of doing this. If
Speaker 2: you're saying six years, I think you were just hoping
Speaker 2: to get a very quick payout here. But I still,
Speaker 2: if I were dj would be incredibly terrified. Every single day,
Speaker 2: I'd be wondering if my only surviving child, Tammy was
Speaker 2: still alive, to the point where it would be overprotective
Speaker 2: and probably crossing boundaries. So I can imagine it changed
Speaker 2: the relationship between Tammy and dj.
Speaker 1: Oh pretty much because it was shortly after this when
Speaker 1: this was featured on Unsolved Mysteries. Because the murder was
Speaker 1: bad enough, but this whole extortion attempt added a bit
Speaker 1: of additional urgency, so they finally said, we have to
Speaker 1: get this on national television. We have to get this guy.
Speaker 1: Because both DJ and Tan were interviewed and they were
Speaker 1: both saying that they were just living in constant terror,
Speaker 1: in fear knowing that this person was out there, and
Speaker 1: it said that they were going to like killer at
Speaker 1: any moment. They did what they could to try to
Speaker 1: track down this guy. I know that when he made
Speaker 1: his phone calls, they were always done at phone boosts,
Speaker 1: but whenever the FBI went to the phone boost the
Speaker 1: person would be gone by then. But at the outset,
Speaker 1: at least they seemed inclined to believe that the caller
Speaker 1: was the same person who had killed Roger and was
Speaker 1: just coming back years later in an attempt to make
Speaker 1: some money. And what's interesting is that when this was
Speaker 1: featured on Unsolved Mysteries, Robert Stack said that this throwaway
Speaker 1: line that investigators have considered the possibility that both a
Speaker 1: woman and a man are involved in this whole scheme.
Speaker 1: And when I watched it, the Unsolved Mystery segment did
Speaker 1: not mention Roger's affair with his secretary, so I had
Speaker 1: no idea why they mentioned a woman and a man.
Speaker 1: And it was later when I researched this for the
Speaker 1: podcast episode. I was like, oh, okay, so they suspect
Speaker 1: that it might be the secretary and his son, and
Speaker 1: that even though they left town after the murder, they
Speaker 1: may have decided to go back and get more to
Speaker 1: try to get some money.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it is really odd too when
Speaker 2: you look back and you think, you guys just escaped town,
Speaker 2: and I mean, maybe one of them would have, but
Speaker 2: the son seems to be of an age that he's
Speaker 2: not necessarily living with his mother. So the fact that
Speaker 2: they both high tailed it out of there after being
Speaker 2: uncooperative with authorities does look really sketchy exactly.
Speaker 1: And this is what's interesting is that at first they
Speaker 1: were inclined to believe that the extortionist was the same
Speaker 1: person who killed Roger, But as time has gone on,
Speaker 1: it sounds like law enforcement have come to believe that
Speaker 1: the extortionist was just a greedy opportunist who didn't kill Roger,
Speaker 1: but knew about the crime and was trying to take
Speaker 1: advantage of DJ in order to score some money. And
Speaker 1: apparently he shared some details in the threatening note which
Speaker 1: were not accurate. Like all the details that he shared,
Speaker 1: most of them were public knowledge. There wasn't anything exclusive
Speaker 1: to suggest that they had inside knowledge of the crime.
Speaker 1: And they also said some things about how I left
Speaker 1: my bag behind, I attempted to steal your jewelry, and
Speaker 1: I haven't heard anything about the killer having a bag
Speaker 1: or attempting to steal DJ's jewelry. So that's what they've
Speaker 1: described as inaccurate details that suggests that this was not
Speaker 1: the real perpetrator. This is someone who's heard about the
Speaker 1: story in the news and was just trying to take
Speaker 1: advantage of DJ.
Speaker 2: And likely just singled her out and was like, what
Speaker 2: is the most hot button issue for DJ that would
Speaker 2: make her most likely to pay what is most precious
Speaker 2: to her? And the answer is obviously Tammy, her one
Speaker 2: remaining child. So to act like the attention is focused
Speaker 2: on Tammy and that he or she is stalking Tammy
Speaker 2: and that her life is in peril, then I could
Speaker 2: definitely see a scenario where a very panic loving mother
Speaker 2: would try everything to come up with that cash because
Speaker 2: she wants to protect her baby. Luckily, it was just
Speaker 2: a hoax and nobody armed Tammy. Nothing had happened to
Speaker 2: either DJ or Tammy. But what an awful, awful thing
Speaker 2: to do to a surviving wife and surviving daughter of
Speaker 2: a murder victim, to terrorize them that many years later,
Speaker 2: when hopefully they've had some kind of resolution in that
Speaker 2: they're moving forward with their lives. They don't know who
Speaker 2: did this, they don't have the answers, but time does
Speaker 2: heal some wounds, and that you can learn to live
Speaker 2: a life, and that life will be different than the
Speaker 2: life that you had before. But then when you have
Speaker 2: somebody come in and re traumatize you and really make
Speaker 2: you live every single day of your life as if
Speaker 2: it could be your last, but not in a good way,
Speaker 2: in a way that you fear violence upon you. That
Speaker 2: is just the type of thing that makes me sick
Speaker 2: to my stomach to think that those two women had
Speaker 2: to deal with that after they lost Roger. It's just
Speaker 2: it's too much.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, And it just dragged on for so many years,
Speaker 1: and even after it was featured on Unsolved Mysteries, it
Speaker 1: still didn't pave the way for an arrest. And it's
Speaker 1: still never been conclusively established if the murderer and the
Speaker 1: extortionists are the same person. But unfortunately, the statute of
Speaker 1: limitations for the extortion charges have expired, So if it
Speaker 1: was an entirely different person than the killer, then this
Speaker 1: person is never going to be charged for it because
Speaker 1: of the statute of limitations. So they essentially traumatized this
Speaker 1: poor woman and got away with it.
Speaker 2: That's too bad the statute of limitations on certain crimes.
Speaker 2: It's like, what are we giving people awards for getting
Speaker 2: away with crimes so that they never have to be charged.
Speaker 2: It seems wild to me, like certain crimes where if
Speaker 2: you don't figure it out within five years, then you
Speaker 2: can't charge them. I don't know where they came up
Speaker 2: with these.
Speaker 1: I mean, I can understand it for certain crimes, but
Speaker 1: this is a pretty serious one where you're threatening a
Speaker 1: woman's life and trying to extort around of money. So
Speaker 1: you would think that they would like still charge someone
Speaker 1: if they act conclusive evidence, even if it was many
Speaker 1: years later, But unfortunately that's not the case here. So
Speaker 1: that brings an end to part one of our series
Speaker 1: about the murder of Roger Dean. So join us next
Speaker 1: week for part two of our series.
Speaker 3: Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit
Speaker 3: about the Trail Went Cold Patreon?
Speaker 1: Yes, the Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three
Speaker 1: years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like
Speaker 1: early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers
Speaker 1: and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up
Speaker 1: with us on Patreon if you join our five dollars
Speaker 1: tier Tier two, we also offer monthly bonus episodes in
Speaker 1: which I talk about cases which are not featured on
Speaker 1: the Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to
Speaker 1: Patreon and if you join our highest tier tier three,
Speaker 1: the ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer
Speaker 1: is a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsolved Mysteries,
Speaker 1: where you can download an audio file and then boot
Speaker 1: up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or
Speaker 1: YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in
Speaker 1: the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about
Speaker 1: the case is featured in this episode. And incidentally, the
Speaker 1: very first episode that I did a commentary track over
Speaker 1: was the episode featuring this case. So if you want
Speaker 1: to download a commentary track in which I make more
Speaker 1: smart ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to
Speaker 1: join Tier three.
Speaker 4: So I want to let you know a little bit
Speaker 4: about the Jeweles and Nashty patreons, so there's early ad
Speaker 4: free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got our
Speaker 4: Pathwent Chili mini's, which are always over an hour, so
Speaker 4: they're not very mini, but they're just too short to
Speaker 4: turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those,
Speaker 4: so we hope you'll check out those patreons.
Speaker 3: We'll link them in the show notes.
Speaker 1: So I want to thank you all for listening, and
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Speaker 1: You can email us at The Pathwentchili at gmail dot com.
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Speaker 1: until next time, be sure to bundle up because cold
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Speaker 3: Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy