WEBVTT 1 00:00:29.559 --> 00:00:31.920 Welcome to this week's edition of The Path Went Chili. 2 00:00:31.960 --> 00:00:34.439 We're getting close to the holidays, and as you can imagine, 3 00:00:34.479 --> 00:00:37.280 because she has a newborn baby, Ashley is quite busy 4 00:00:37.399 --> 00:00:39.799 preparing for Christmas. So for the next couple of weeks, 5 00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:42.280 it's just going to be Jules and I and we'll 6 00:00:42.320 --> 00:00:44.640 follow our standard format where I tell her all the 7 00:00:44.679 --> 00:00:47.520 details about her case and she gives off her live reaction. 8 00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:50.039 And today we're going to be talking about a case 9 00:00:50.079 --> 00:00:53.439 that is nearly solved but not quite as kind of 10 00:00:53.479 --> 00:00:56.320 a unique situation. Have you ever heard of the murder 11 00:00:56.320 --> 00:00:57.560 of Roger Dean. 12 00:00:58.240 --> 00:01:00.119 I don't think so. Well. 13 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:01.920 I covered it on The Trail Went Cold about five 14 00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:04.000 and a half years ago, and it was featured on 15 00:01:04.120 --> 00:01:07.359 Unsolved Mysteries, and it was nearly four years ago when 16 00:01:07.359 --> 00:01:09.920 they finally had in rest in the case. But there 17 00:01:09.959 --> 00:01:12.920 is still hasn't been a trial or a conclusive resolution, 18 00:01:13.159 --> 00:01:16.000 though I'm hoping there'll be sometime in the future. But 19 00:01:16.040 --> 00:01:18.480 there have been so many wild twists and turns throughout 20 00:01:18.480 --> 00:01:20.439 this case that I thought we should do a series 21 00:01:20.480 --> 00:01:22.920 of episodes on it and discuss it. Well. 22 00:01:22.959 --> 00:01:25.640 I'm excited to hear all about it. There's a possibility 23 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:28.920 that I may have listened to your episode that many 24 00:01:28.959 --> 00:01:32.439 years ago, but all the other episodes that I've listened 25 00:01:32.439 --> 00:01:35.079 to since and every other case. It sort of is 26 00:01:35.120 --> 00:01:38.799 like makes everything so convoluted in my mind that once 27 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:41.120 you get into it, maybe I'll recognize it and maybe 28 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:41.760 I won't. 29 00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:44.159 Yeah, I'm thinking there is a possibility you may have 30 00:01:44.200 --> 00:01:45.920 heard it, but since I released it five and a 31 00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:47.680 half years ago, you may have forgot it. But it 32 00:01:47.719 --> 00:01:49.400 may come back to you when I start sharing all 33 00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:53.760 the details. So, this particular crime took place in Littleton, Colorado, 34 00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:57.040 in nineteen eighty five. The victim was Roger Dean, who 35 00:01:57.079 --> 00:01:59.640 was fifty one years old and was the co owner 36 00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:02.840 of a food brokerage firm which sold food products to 37 00:02:02.920 --> 00:02:05.920 a grocery chains. He lived in the Lone Tree subdivision 38 00:02:05.959 --> 00:02:08.560 with his fifty year old wife, Doris Gene, who went 39 00:02:08.599 --> 00:02:12.319 by the nickname DJ. They've been married for twenty six years. 40 00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:14.319 At this point, they had a twenty four year old 41 00:02:14.360 --> 00:02:16.960 daughter named Tammy, who has since married and gotten away, 42 00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:20.680 but the couple have recently dealt with a lot of trauma. 43 00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:23.120 They had a twenty two year old son named Troy, 44 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:26.599 who was killed in January of nineteen eighty three when 45 00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:29.879 his car got into an accident at a train crossing, 46 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:34.120 and this was particularly difficult for DJ because she actually 47 00:02:34.199 --> 00:02:36.879 lost both of her parents in a car accident way 48 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:39.840 back in nineteen sixty nine, so losing her son in 49 00:02:39.879 --> 00:02:44.159 that fashion brought back so many terrible flashbacks. And around 50 00:02:44.159 --> 00:02:47.240 this time period, DJ had also discovered that Roger had 51 00:02:47.240 --> 00:02:50.919 been having a secret affair with his secretary, but he 52 00:02:50.960 --> 00:02:53.680 apologized and assured her that the affair was over, and 53 00:02:53.719 --> 00:02:55.919 because they had been through so much trauma and lost 54 00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:58.840 their son, DJ pretty much decided, Okay, this is a 55 00:02:58.840 --> 00:03:01.120 bad obstacle, but we're going to move past and make 56 00:03:01.159 --> 00:03:04.240 it work. So she ultimately decided to stay with her husband. 57 00:03:05.439 --> 00:03:07.680 My heart goes out to DJ, that is a lot 58 00:03:07.719 --> 00:03:10.479 to deal with. It's enough of a tragedy dealing with 59 00:03:10.520 --> 00:03:13.479 the loss of your parents, but no parents should ever 60 00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:15.919 have to deal with the loss of a child, especially 61 00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:20.919 in a similar accident slash tragedy such as like being 62 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:24.800 killed at a train crossing. It's there's no words to 63 00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:27.879 describe how awful that must have been for her. And 64 00:03:27.919 --> 00:03:30.240 then the cherry on top of it is to find 65 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:32.719 out that her husband Roger is having an affair with 66 00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:35.520 his secretary. People always want to make it black and 67 00:03:35.560 --> 00:03:38.680 white when there's an affair, like oh, he cheated, so 68 00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:41.599 leave him. But it isn't that simple when it comes 69 00:03:41.599 --> 00:03:44.400 to marriages. There's a lot of other factors that go 70 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:49.199 into the why, and couples can grow apart, and sometimes 71 00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:52.800 an affair can be a catalyst for people growing closer 72 00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:54.919 because they recommit to that relationship. 73 00:03:55.560 --> 00:03:58.080 That might have been what happened. I don't know when 74 00:03:58.159 --> 00:04:01.639 exactly the affair started, but if it started after Roger 75 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:03.840 lost his son, that that could have been a contributing 76 00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:06.080 factor where he was dealing with so much trauma and 77 00:04:06.159 --> 00:04:08.879 grief that he had to see companionship from another woman. 78 00:04:09.319 --> 00:04:12.520 So maybe that was DJ's rationale, saying that he's suffering too, 79 00:04:12.639 --> 00:04:14.960 and he did this because he needed someone else to 80 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:17.319 turn to. So I'm willing to forgive him and move on. 81 00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:20.439 Often with the death of a child, you see the 82 00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:23.959 dissolution of a relationship, and I think it's just because 83 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:27.000 each person is on their grieving journey and it will 84 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:29.399 either bring you closer together or it's going to tear 85 00:04:29.519 --> 00:04:34.199 everything apart. And I think potentially in this case, maybe 86 00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:36.519 the fact that he had this affair was his way 87 00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:39.759 of acting out, his way of expressing his grief and 88 00:04:40.279 --> 00:04:43.319 being self destructive in that kind of a capacity where 89 00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:47.519 he was risking his relationship and then maybe being able 90 00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:51.199 to dial that back and go, wow, I'm not only 91 00:04:51.319 --> 00:04:54.720 hurting this person that I love, DJ, who I've committed 92 00:04:54.759 --> 00:04:58.879 my life to, but I'm hurting myself and maybe we 93 00:04:58.959 --> 00:05:01.519 really want to give this a try and actually commit 94 00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:05.160 to each other. So I think that in all of 95 00:05:05.160 --> 00:05:08.839 that grief and pain and betrayal in this case, sometimes 96 00:05:08.839 --> 00:05:10.240 something beautiful can grow out. 97 00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:12.920 Of that, and as possible, that could have happened, but 98 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:15.920 unfortunately DJ's trauma would only get worse because she would 99 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:18.319 wind up losing her husband as well. So I'm going 100 00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:21.639 to describe the events of what happened here. On November 101 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:24.759 the twenty first, nineteen eighty five, DJ woke up and 102 00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:27.680 took a bath shortly after seven am. I think she 103 00:05:27.800 --> 00:05:30.120 assumed that her husband had gone to work, But then 104 00:05:30.160 --> 00:05:32.839 when she got out and was drawing herself off, she 105 00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:35.959 heard Roger call her into their bedroom, and she was 106 00:05:35.959 --> 00:05:38.800 shocked to see a male intruder there wearing a ski 107 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:42.240 mask standing behind Roger with a gun. He ordered Roger 108 00:05:42.279 --> 00:05:44.879 to tie DJ up with some rope and blind folder 109 00:05:44.920 --> 00:05:47.519 with duct tape, and after she was placed on the bed, 110 00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:50.360 the two men exited the bedroom and she thought she 111 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:53.240 could hear Roger and the gunman getting into some sort 112 00:05:53.240 --> 00:05:55.800 of argument, but she couldn't make out what they were saying. 113 00:05:56.279 --> 00:05:58.759 And then a few minutes later, the intruder returned to 114 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:01.519 the bedroom and she could hear him frantically searching through 115 00:06:01.560 --> 00:06:04.360 the doors and he was yelling at DJ, how much 116 00:06:04.399 --> 00:06:07.319 money do you have in your savings account? And DJ 117 00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:10.160 did answer. He went into the hallway, and then she 118 00:06:10.279 --> 00:06:13.000 soon overheard the gunman yelling at Roger that he owed 119 00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:15.879 them money, and Roger responded by saying that he had 120 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:19.240 thirty thousand dollars in his account. So the gunman told 121 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:21.160 Roger that we're both going to go to the bank 122 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:24.040 to get it. But it wasn't long before DJ heard 123 00:06:24.040 --> 00:06:27.519 a series of gunshots, and after hearing the sound of 124 00:06:27.560 --> 00:06:30.199 someone fleeing the house, DJ finally decided to flee the 125 00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:33.240 bedroom while she was still blindfolded and with her hands tied, 126 00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:36.040 and she managed to make it downstairs and egsit the 127 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:38.399 house and By this point, a neighbor came out and 128 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:40.920 was able to untire and remove the duct tape from 129 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:43.399 her eyes, but then she was horrified to discover that 130 00:06:43.480 --> 00:06:46.920 Roger was lying on the front lawn with six gunshots 131 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:47.800 in him. 132 00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:53.360 Oh, poor dj I can't even imagine how awful it 133 00:06:53.399 --> 00:06:55.120 would be. You get out of the shower, you think 134 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:58.160 your husband's gone, you're surprised by your husband, and then 135 00:06:58.199 --> 00:07:00.879 you see a masked intruder. And it seems as though 136 00:07:00.879 --> 00:07:05.720 they're arguing as if potentially they know each other, especially 137 00:07:05.720 --> 00:07:09.040 if the intruder is saying that Roger owes him money, 138 00:07:09.800 --> 00:07:12.240 but it seems a little odd. He's got thirty thousand 139 00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:15.120 dollars in his account. Why would he not pay this 140 00:07:15.160 --> 00:07:19.000 person if he did truly owe the money? And then 141 00:07:19.519 --> 00:07:21.240 we think that they're going to go to the bank, 142 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:24.560 but then we hear gunshots. So what could have happened 143 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:28.040 in the interim. Was it that Roger chose to fight back, 144 00:07:28.120 --> 00:07:32.120 and maybe the gunman panicked and just emptied the clip 145 00:07:32.319 --> 00:07:35.040 into Roger rather than really thinking about, Hey, I need 146 00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:35.639 him alive. 147 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:39.079 Yeah, that's going to be one of the most ambiguous 148 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:41.600 things about this case is whether or not Roger and 149 00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:44.519 his killer knew each other, and they would find out 150 00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:47.319 that one of the bullets Roger had was in his arm, 151 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:50.000 and they discovered that the first shot that was fired 152 00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:53.079 off the bullet ricocheted off the banister and struck Roger 153 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:55.480 in the arm, and I think Roger was able to 154 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:57.439 flee and make it out the front door, and that's 155 00:07:57.480 --> 00:08:00.240 when the intruder fired five more shots into a which 156 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:03.920 ultimately killed him. And he also had some tape wrapped 157 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:06.720 around his ankles, which suggested that maybe the killer was 158 00:08:06.759 --> 00:08:08.920 planning to bound him and maybe take him in the 159 00:08:08.920 --> 00:08:11.319 trunk for a trip to the bank. And then Roger 160 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:14.680 tried to escape, and I'm thinking that if he really 161 00:08:14.720 --> 00:08:16.759 was planning to get money, that maybe he was only 162 00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:18.879 planning to fire a warning shot. But then when the 163 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:21.240 bullet rick hacheded off the banister and hit Roger in 164 00:08:21.279 --> 00:08:23.680 the arm, he realized, Okay, we can't go to the 165 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:25.959 bank and withdraw money if he's got a gunshot wound 166 00:08:25.959 --> 00:08:27.759 in his arm, and that's why he decided to kill 167 00:08:27.839 --> 00:08:30.240 him and flee the scene without getting any money. 168 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:35.360 What a bizarre scenario. So there's only one person and 169 00:08:35.399 --> 00:08:37.279 you're planning to do this whole we're going to go 170 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:39.759 to the bank and take money out, You're gonna have 171 00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:42.279 to go to a teller to take out thirty thousand dollars. 172 00:08:42.279 --> 00:08:45.240 You could just go to an ATM and be like, oh, yeah, 173 00:08:45.240 --> 00:08:48.240 I want to withdraw thirty thousand dollars. Like that's not 174 00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:50.440 going to work. You're probably only going to be able 175 00:08:50.440 --> 00:08:52.720 to take out a couple grand and then you're gonna 176 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:55.320 have to go to a teller. So either this person 177 00:08:55.440 --> 00:08:58.240 was like, we're just going to go to any ATM 178 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:00.519 and we're going to take out a couple grand, what 179 00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:03.200 would be his motivation in not saying something to the 180 00:09:03.279 --> 00:09:07.200 teller or not signaling somebody something because you don't have 181 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:10.879 another individual who's going to stay on DJ. Right, it 182 00:09:10.879 --> 00:09:12.919 would be one thing if you were like, I've got 183 00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:16.039 my buddy here and he's watching DJ any wrong move 184 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:19.120 and she's dead. But that didn't seem to be the case. 185 00:09:19.159 --> 00:09:21.159 He was just going to bind her and put tape 186 00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:22.559 over her eyes and leave her. 187 00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:25.559 Yeah, that's the thing that doesn't make sense because we 188 00:09:25.639 --> 00:09:27.559 have seen a lot of other plans like this where 189 00:09:27.559 --> 00:09:30.279 one person will remain buhind at the house with the victims. 190 00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:32.519 Love one or their family and say that I will 191 00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:34.480 kill you if you try to go to the police 192 00:09:34.600 --> 00:09:37.240 or tell anyone at the bank what's going on. But 193 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:40.200 this was committed by one man. And another thing that 194 00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:42.799 strikes me weird is that this took place at seven am, 195 00:09:42.919 --> 00:09:45.879 and from my experience, banks generally don't open until at 196 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:49.159 least eight nine o'clock, so it just seems way too 197 00:09:49.159 --> 00:09:51.639 early to kidnap someone and take them to a bank 198 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:53.639 to withdraw money from their account. 199 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:56.840 I feel like banking hours have got better in the 200 00:09:56.879 --> 00:09:59.919 last ten years, but I feel like, I don't know, 201 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:03.039 in nineteen eighty five of their baby, but yeah, but 202 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:06.399 still I think that the banking hours weren't as good 203 00:10:06.600 --> 00:10:08.759 because I think when I was a teenager, it was 204 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:10.639 like you'd be hard pressed to get into a bank 205 00:10:10.679 --> 00:10:14.240 before nine am. So yeah, seven am seems like an 206 00:10:14.320 --> 00:10:17.600 odd choice. And I don't know how many ATMs there 207 00:10:17.639 --> 00:10:19.600 were at the time, and like what their limit would 208 00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:21.960 have been to take out. But I just I don't 209 00:10:21.960 --> 00:10:24.799 think that anybody can go to a bank machine and 210 00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:26.840 get out thirty grand I just don't think that there's 211 00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:29.799 that much money in these machines that they would allow 212 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:31.919 anyone individual to take that much out. 213 00:10:32.360 --> 00:10:34.320 Oh, definitely not. And if you try to withdraw that 214 00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:36.759 much in cash with a teller, it's a long process, 215 00:10:36.759 --> 00:10:38.879 I think. I assume you have to sign forms or 216 00:10:38.919 --> 00:10:41.080 something like that and wait for them to count the money. 217 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:43.480 So it's really not an easy thing to do if 218 00:10:43.480 --> 00:10:45.559 you're trying to get someone to withdraw the money against 219 00:10:45.600 --> 00:10:47.600 their will while their wife is tied up at home. 220 00:10:47.679 --> 00:10:49.879 But as we're going to talk about, people have wondered 221 00:10:49.919 --> 00:10:52.519 if there were ulterior motives to this whole crime, and 222 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:55.200 that this whole withdrawing thirty thousand dollars from the bank 223 00:10:55.360 --> 00:10:59.679 was just some weird cover story. So it would turn 224 00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:02.519 out that the attacker removed his mask at some point 225 00:11:02.600 --> 00:11:05.159 and left it behind at the house. Of course, since 226 00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:08.080 DJ barely got a look at the mass gunman before 227 00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:10.080 the duct tape was put over her eyes, she wasn't 228 00:11:10.120 --> 00:11:12.840 able to provide much of a description. But there were 229 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:15.080 a bunch of people in the neighborhood who said that 230 00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:17.840 they saw an unfamiliar car parked next to the road 231 00:11:17.960 --> 00:11:20.759 down the street from Roger's house during the early morning hours, 232 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:23.240 which they thought looked out of place, but they weren't 233 00:11:23.240 --> 00:11:25.840 able to give consistent descriptions, as some people thought it 234 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:28.320 was a nineteen sixty eight Pontiac, some people thought it 235 00:11:28.360 --> 00:11:31.759 was a nineteen seventy six Oldsmobile, So there really wasn't 236 00:11:31.799 --> 00:11:34.799 much to go on, and so they really didn't know 237 00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:37.159 who did this, So of course they started looking into 238 00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:41.159 Roger's background, and what was weird is that the police 239 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:43.320 began to wonder if this might have been some sort 240 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:47.759 of staged kidnapping gone horribly wrong, because even though Roger 241 00:11:48.039 --> 00:11:50.960 had been tied up with ropes, they discovered that twine 242 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:53.879 fiber was embedded in only one of his wrists, and 243 00:11:53.960 --> 00:11:56.879 even though he had been wearing contact lenses that morning, 244 00:11:56.960 --> 00:11:59.799 they actually found Roger's glasses in the bedroom and they 245 00:11:59.799 --> 00:12:03.080 were covered in duct tape, even though there didn't seem 246 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:04.840 to be any reason for Roger to put on his 247 00:12:04.919 --> 00:12:07.320 glasses in the first place, and I don't think DJ 248 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:10.000 said he was wearing his glasses when he came into 249 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:14.000 the bedroom that morning. And it was also Roger's standard 250 00:12:14.039 --> 00:12:17.360 work day routine to leave at around six six point fifteen, 251 00:12:17.919 --> 00:12:19.960 so it was very out of the ordinary for Roger 252 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:22.960 to still be there at seven am, and neighbors would 253 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:26.679 report seeing Roger drinking coffee inside the garage near seven 254 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:29.840 o'clock by while lifting up the garage door, which seemed 255 00:12:29.919 --> 00:12:32.519 very out of character. And he even found his full 256 00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:35.279 coffee cup just lying on top of some newspapers on 257 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:38.360 a trash can in the garage. So it almost appeared 258 00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:41.919 that Roger was expecting someone to show up, and that 259 00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:44.600 maybe he was planning to like stage a kidnapping or 260 00:12:44.639 --> 00:12:46.799 something like that, or maybe he was planning a secret 261 00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:49.879 meeting with this man, but for whatever reason, things went 262 00:12:49.919 --> 00:12:51.879 horribly wrong and he wound up getting shot. 263 00:12:53.200 --> 00:12:56.720 This is so strange the fact that he wouldn't tell DJ. 264 00:12:57.159 --> 00:12:59.080 If you were going to be bringing somebody to the 265 00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:01.120 house and you were going to be meeting them enough 266 00:13:01.159 --> 00:13:03.720 so that you're going to have the garage door open, 267 00:13:03.799 --> 00:13:06.879 you're waiting, you're late to go to work, it sounds 268 00:13:06.919 --> 00:13:10.919 like you definitely have something scheduled, you're expecting someone. Why 269 00:13:10.919 --> 00:13:14.360 wouldn't you tell your wife? That's a big question. And 270 00:13:14.840 --> 00:13:16.639 even just to say, like, hey, I'm gonna be late 271 00:13:16.639 --> 00:13:18.879 for work, someone's gonna be popping in. They're just gonna 272 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:21.799 be coming into the driveway or the garage, like you're 273 00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:24.519 not going to see them don't worry about it. And 274 00:13:24.600 --> 00:13:27.399 if you see an unfamiliar car in the driveway, don't panic. 275 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:30.159 I would think that you would want to say those things, 276 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:32.240 like I live in a condo. But if I lived 277 00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:35.519 in a house and my husband didn't tell me those things, 278 00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:39.559 I would be really bothered by that, especially if you're showering, 279 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:42.399 you're thinking that you're alone, and then you could just 280 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:45.720 walk out and there he is, like, I don't know, 281 00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:47.320 it just seems a little odd. 282 00:13:48.279 --> 00:13:50.080 Yeah. This is the part of the story that no 283 00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:51.919 one has ever been able to figure out, is like, 284 00:13:51.960 --> 00:13:55.799 what were Roger's alterior motives? Because I know that DJ 285 00:13:55.919 --> 00:13:58.200 said that they heard an argument about this guy saying 286 00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:01.120 that Roger owed him money. So maybe he was expecting 287 00:14:01.159 --> 00:14:02.919 this guy to show up to the house and he 288 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:05.039 was going to pay him, or maybe say I'm going 289 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:07.120 to pay you later or something like that, I just 290 00:14:07.159 --> 00:14:09.279 need time to get the money. But why would he 291 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:11.600 do that while DJ was home? I know this was 292 00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:13.960 time so that this meeting could have taken place while 293 00:14:14.039 --> 00:14:17.519 DJ was in the bathtub, So maybe he was hoping, well, 294 00:14:17.559 --> 00:14:19.399 this guy will show up, we'll talk in the garage, 295 00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:22.159 and DJ we'll never know. He was here, But why 296 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:24.279 wouldn't you set the meeting somewhere else? Why would you 297 00:14:24.279 --> 00:14:27.080 set it up at your own house? So it just 298 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:28.919 does it just seems weird that he would have this 299 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:31.080 secret meeting and not tell his wife about it. And 300 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:33.200 if it was so secretive, why even have it at 301 00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:34.080 the house to begin with. 302 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:37.679 Yeah, and in nineteen eighty five, it's not like you're 303 00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:39.919 going to get like a last minute text from someone 304 00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:42.279 and be like, Hey, I'm going to stop by. Can 305 00:14:42.279 --> 00:14:45.360 we discuss this thing that we've been discussing. I really 306 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:47.879 need a face to face with you, because you'd have 307 00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:51.720 to call somebody's landline and like schedule something way beforehand 308 00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:54.840 without that technology. There there's no chance that it was 309 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:57.159 just this last minute thing that just like slipped his 310 00:14:57.240 --> 00:15:01.919 mind that he couldn't tell DJ teams really strange, and 311 00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:05.240 you've got to wonder why, Like maybe they did have 312 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:08.919 some kind of business dealing and who knows what could 313 00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:13.200 have transpired. Maybe he did owe him money, maybe not. 314 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:17.919 Maybe there was just a miscommunication and things didn't go 315 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:21.080 forward the way that that other individual thought that they should, 316 00:15:21.559 --> 00:15:26.399 and so he was demanding money. I don't know, Like 317 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:29.720 I can't think of what Roger's motivation would be and 318 00:15:29.799 --> 00:15:31.879 like why he would go to work late. It seems 319 00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:33.080 like there's something planned. 320 00:15:34.039 --> 00:15:37.159 Well, here's where it gets weird, because, as you recall, 321 00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:40.000 DJ said she heard Roger telling the gunman that he 322 00:15:40.039 --> 00:15:42.600 had thirty thousand dollars in the bank, and they would 323 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:45.759 eventually discover that Roger had a secret bank account and 324 00:15:45.799 --> 00:15:48.799 that he had secretly transferred thirty two thousand dollars from 325 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:52.080 his company's bank account and deposited it in this private account. 326 00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:54.840 And DJ didn't even know about it. She didn't even 327 00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:57.720 know that this account existed. So you have to think 328 00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:00.360 since he mentioned that specific amount thirty thous and that 329 00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:03.200 maybe there was something weird going on, and that this 330 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:05.799 could have been like a stage kidnapping where he would 331 00:16:05.799 --> 00:16:08.440 pretend that this guy kidnapped them and force them to 332 00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:11.200 withdraw the money. But then Roger would just keep the 333 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:14.120 thirty two thousand dollars for himself, claim it was stolen, 334 00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:16.519 and that when he told the story to the police, 335 00:16:16.600 --> 00:16:19.320 DJ would pretty much act as his witness because she 336 00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:21.519 saw the gunman and she was tied up all that 337 00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:24.000 all this was going on. But the problem is that 338 00:16:24.039 --> 00:16:25.879 I can't think of a motive for why he would 339 00:16:25.879 --> 00:16:28.919 do this because obviously, if you're transferring this thirty two 340 00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:32.120 thousand dollars to a secret account, nobody knows about it, 341 00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:34.480 so why would you pretend that it's stolen to cover 342 00:16:34.600 --> 00:16:36.639 for it? And it just seems like a lot of 343 00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:39.159 trouble to go to for just thirty two thousand dollars, 344 00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:41.759 because if you have it in your company's bank account, 345 00:16:41.799 --> 00:16:44.279 then why are you just going through this whole charade? 346 00:16:44.360 --> 00:16:47.080 So I know that there was something going on because 347 00:16:47.080 --> 00:16:48.879 of this secret bank account, but I don't know if 348 00:16:48.919 --> 00:16:52.080 i'd buy this whole staged kidnapping theory gone wrong. 349 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:55.919 Let's say that's like what like seventy five thousand in 350 00:16:55.960 --> 00:16:58.879 today's money around there. I'm just gonna pull a figure 351 00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:01.480 out of nowhere. It seems like a lot to go 352 00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:03.960 through for seventy five thousand dollars. I don't know what 353 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:07.480 his financial situation was, but I could see a world 354 00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:10.839 where if you were embezzling money, you're starting to freak 355 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:13.359 out every single day that that is going to get 356 00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:16.039 traced back to you. And so I could see a 357 00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:20.839 scenario where he kind of constructs this whole plan where 358 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:23.799 he's going to have this narrative that he was kidnapped 359 00:17:23.799 --> 00:17:27.920 and the money was taken and that's where the money went. Okay, 360 00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:31.559 I could see that. But then you have a guy 361 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:35.359 that you hire, I'm assuming somebody you know, I would guess, 362 00:17:35.960 --> 00:17:39.319 and then you have him bring a real gun that 363 00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:42.720 actually has bullets in it, Like, why would you even 364 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:44.960 need to load the gun if this were the case 365 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:45.880 that's true? 366 00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:48.400 Yeah, like the guy obviously he fired one shot that 367 00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:50.279 hit Roger in the arm, but you don't need to 368 00:17:50.319 --> 00:17:52.599 bring a loaded gun to begin with if you're in 369 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:55.039 on it together, so you could just stage the whole thing. 370 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:57.279 So yeah, And I don't know why things would go 371 00:17:57.359 --> 00:17:59.519 so badly that this guy would just suddenly decide to 372 00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:02.680 kill Rob without getting any money. So it could be 373 00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:05.279 that the thirty two thousand dollars is just red hairing. 374 00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:07.960 It has no relation to the case. And they never 375 00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:11.279 actually accused Roduler of embezzling it. I mean it was 376 00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:13.359 his company. He took it out of the account, but 377 00:18:13.400 --> 00:18:15.319 they didn't find out any evidence of the eddy of 378 00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:18.680 financial problems or that he was doing anything illegal or 379 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:21.839 stealing money, so that the whole plan there doesn't seem 380 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:23.799 to be any real logical motive for it. 381 00:18:24.680 --> 00:18:29.319 But if you've transferred that money from your company into 382 00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:31.960 your personal account, I would think there's a potential for 383 00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:37.119 insurance fraud. You would be claiming some kind of insurance 384 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:40.319 on that thirty thousand dollars and expect that to be 385 00:18:40.519 --> 00:18:44.920 recouped if somebody held you for ransom, because if you're 386 00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:47.279 going to have some kind of business insurance that I 387 00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:49.559 think would protect you in a scenario such as this, 388 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:51.279 So I could see that being a motivator. 389 00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:55.480 Yeah, that's true, where he pretends that the thirty two 390 00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:57.559 thousand dollars is missing while holding on to it, then 391 00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:00.519 gets an extra payout from the insurance. What that would 392 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:03.039 be like maybe sixty four thousand dollars in total. And 393 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:05.519 is it really worth all this trouble? It's I mean, 394 00:19:05.559 --> 00:19:07.920 even in today's money, that would be what like over 395 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:11.160 one hundred thousand dollars. I mean, do you really need 396 00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:12.359 to go through all this trouble? 397 00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:16.200 I mean, I have no idea. It just depends on 398 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:21.319 what his financial situation was at the time. And it 399 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:25.240 doesn't seem as though, aside from the affair that he had, 400 00:19:25.880 --> 00:19:28.440 from what we know about him thus far, that he 401 00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:32.720