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Speaker 1: The Thinking Atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,

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an idea.

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Speaker 2: The population of atheists this country is going through.

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Speaker 1: The rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If

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I tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth,

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not because.

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Speaker 3: I put my hand on a book and made a wish.

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Speaker 1: And working together for a more rational world.

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Speaker 2: Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness. Truth,

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Usian wisdom will come to you that way.

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Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the

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Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.

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Speaker 2: This is part two of my conversation, a deep dive

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by study with Justin de Z of Deconstruction Zone. Justin,

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like me, was once a true blue Believer. He is

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now a former Christian, but he was a pastor as

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a Master's in Divinity and now spends a lot of

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time talking about this stuff we're going to talk about today.

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The Bible Part one is linked in the description box,

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so is Justin's link tree, and a video of the

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whole conversation. All of that is in the description box.

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So here we go with Part two. Lots of talk

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about other uncanonized books I'm thinking of the Book of Enoch.

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I'm doing it off the top of the Gospel of Judas,

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the Gospel of Thomas, etc. I guess the question is

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who canonized the books. They're voted into approval of some kind.

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How was that decision made and who made it. That's

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a tough one. So the period of canonization is messy.

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What I can tell you is that the Hebrew Bible

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wasn't canonized until after Jesus's death and the formation of

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the Early Christian Church. Some people point towards what they're

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going to say is like a council of Jamnia. It's

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not really a council.

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Speaker 3: There was a like a Hebrew school or Jewish school

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at Jamnia, and most people believe that out of that

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school they finally said, okay, we need to nail down

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what is our canon. So, I mean, we don't have

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a lot of documentation from it. We don't really know

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about the whole process, who was involved, or how it

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came about. We just know that that seems to be

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where it happened and when it happened. Now, the early Christians,

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interestingly enough, had a very different canon. In fact, if

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you read through the early letters from the Church, Fathers

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and read through the council notes from the Christians they

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treated the Apa, and a lot of them also enoch

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as though these are all scripture. I did a documentation

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once of the first four hundred years of the Church.

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Every single time somebody mentioned one of the Apocrypha, or

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quoted from the Apocrypha, or it talked about the Apocrypha.

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And what I found was every single one of them

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up until the time of Jerome, believed that the Apocrypha

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was scripture. They believed that it was given by God,

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they believed that it was prophetic, and they believed that

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it was inspired by the Holy Spirit. And even Justin

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Martyr argued that the Jews took the Apocrypha out of

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the canon because it spoke so clearly about Jesus. And

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so the early Church had this canon up until Jerome,

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where the Apocrypha was a core piece of it. It

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wasn't until way way later that people were like, Hey,

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maybe I don't know this apocrypha business. And one of

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the reasons why that happened was Jerome was tasked to

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organize the Old Life in manuscripts, so everyone knows joem

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did the Latin Vulgate, but prior to the Vulgate, they

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had Latin texts. They were a direct translation of the

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Greek septuagen for the Old Testament, and they were a

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translation of the Greek New Testament, but they were kind

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of a mess. They needed someone to go in and

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organize them and collate them and make it like an

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official copy. And that's what Jerome did. But in doing so,

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he already knew Greek. But he's like, listen, if I'm

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going to do this, I really should go back to

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the Hebrew manuscripts, not the Greek Old Testament. I should

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see what's in the Hebrew. And so what he did

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was he went down and learned Hebrew with the Jews

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that were still alive that haven't been forcefully baptized yet.

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And he was able to ascertain while he was down there,

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not just the knowledge of the language, but also he's like, hey, listen,

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there's this really weird thing. The Jews don't treat these

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apocryphal books as being holy, like they don't include them.

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So he was the first one that was like, hey, listen,

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if these aren't sacred scriptures to the Jews, maybe they

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shouldn't be sacred scripture to us. And that's where we

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start to get a little bit of dialogue of like, hey,

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are these really part of the Old Testament canon? And

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then the early ecumenical councils had to deal with that.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to get too far into the weeds,

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but I do want to address the Council of Nicia, right,

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the nice and Creed. A lot of people say that

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this was when many of the books of the Bible

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were chosen. Correct me if I'm wrong. As I understand it,

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it was actually more an argument about canonical law and

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trying to determine other, I don't know, other important parts

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of Christianity. But it wasn't the selection of the books

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at Nicia. Do I have that right?

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Speaker 3: That seems to be the case. In fact, we've got

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some councils that do deal with the with the selection

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of the books. I'd have to get you a list

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of the councils. The Council of Nicea was really more

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about They talked about the nature of Jesus, divinity and

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the Trinity and things like that. And while they certainly

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did kind of talk about the canon, it wasn't it

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wasn't made official. And in fact, if you give me

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just a second, I'll pull up the councils that you want.

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Speaker 2: Well, while you're pulling that up, I mean we're talking

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what third century, So this is after the Bible was

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or at least some canons were selected. Like do we

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know when the first incarnations of the books came together?

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We don't have the original manuscripts, but some of the translations.

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Do we know when somebody first said, okay, this is it?

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Speaker 3: So I think the earliest we could point to as

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like something we would classify as like a unified text

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are the early manuscripts like the Sinaticus Vaticanis. These are

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like really early texts of the Old Testament and the

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New Testament in Greek. And if we agree that the

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books that were in those documents are officially part of

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the Christian canon, but it would include quite a few

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books that today we don't think should be in the canon. Now.

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Some of the early councils that dealt with this was

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the Council of Leadicia. They wanted to include baruk as canonized,

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and also the Epistle of Jeremiah. And then we've got

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a decree from Pope Damascus in three twenty eight that

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likewise wanted to canonize the Book of Wisdom, the Book

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of Sirac, the Book of Judas, the Book of Tobit,

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and the Maccabees. And then there's the Council of Hippo

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in three ninety three that wanted to canonize basically all

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of the apocrypha, and then the Council of Carthage in

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three ninety seven specifically because there was multiples, they also

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wanted to canoni Maccabees and whatnot. So we have these

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these early affirmations in the in a lot of the

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ecamenical councils, like the the Third Council of Carthage in

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four nineteen as well, they give an official list of

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canonized books, like they said, okay, these are the official

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canon and it includes Tobit, Judas, Ezra, the the additional

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Ezra's as well, and also Maccabees and also some some

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additional works of Solomon like Wisdom. So like we do

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get early councils where they're like, hey, listen, these these

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are these are official. But that didn't mean that dialogue

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over what was official and did they debated it for

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another one thousand years.

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Speaker 2: I would have read the Book of Wisdom just to

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see what it said, like, let's turn to the Book

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of Wisdom. It sounds you know, that's just me. I'm

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speaking here with Justin Deezey of Deconstruction Zone Shameless Plug.

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I narrated doctor Joshua Bowen's book Did the Old Testament

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endorse slavery? I remember I was talking about this and

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somebody's like, oh, yeah, well, what makes him think he

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knows what he's talking about? And I'm like, oh, I mean,

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he's an a seriologist who speaks and teaches Hebrew and

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an Old Testament scholar, but beyond that, he's totally unqualified.

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Do you want to talk about this argument by the

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apologist that it wasn't slavery, it was merely indentured servitude.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is actually this is one of my

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favorite topics. And we talked about this enough before I

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dive into that. I would add one more note on

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the canonization. Sure, I've forgot about it till just now.

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We've got a direct quote in the Bible of the Apocrypha.

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So the Book of Enoch is directly quoted in Jude

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chapter one, verse fourteen. He quotes from First Enoch chapter

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nine and calls them a prophet it says it was

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about these that Enoch in the seventh generation from Adam prophesied, saying, see,

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the Lord is coming with ten thousands of his holy

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ones to execute judgment on all, to convict all the ungodly.

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He's saying that this book of Enoch is prophetic from God,

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which means if your New Testament says it, you should

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believe what the New Testament says. Enoch needs to be

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in your cannon. Sorry for the rabbit trail though.

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Speaker 2: No, not at all. I'm glad you went there, so

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you know, I guess I can add to my slavery question.

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Some people say indentured servitude. It was voluntary, they were

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paying off debts, it was a work contract. And other

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people say, well, God had to condescend to the societies

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of the time which incorporated slavery. So you know, it's

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either servitude or hey, they had slaves and God was

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kind of working with the system that they had. How

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would you address either of those?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's kind of a trick of which past passages

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you want to read. If you ignore a bunch of

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passages and only read certain passages, you can get to

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this idea that they were just in tcherturbance. It certainly

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isn't the case. Though.

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Speaker 2: Well, if I may, let's start over at Exodus twenty one,

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twenty and twenty one, right about beating your slave. You

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can beat your slave and if he regains consciousness within

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forty eight hours, Hey, no problem, we'll just start there absolutely.

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Speaker 3: So what we find in Exos twenty one, verse twenty

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and twenty one is an interesting like we're we're not

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going to call it a prohibition, We're just gonna call

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it a regulation of like, hey, here's what happens if

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you do this, And it says when a slave owner

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strikes a male or female slave with a rod and

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the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished.

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Speaker 2: Oh.

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Speaker 3: Interesting. Well, first of all, the thing to note is

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that this is most likely just a Hebrew slave. The

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entire chapter is dealing with Hebrew slaves. It doesn't say

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anthing about foreign slaves here, so we're not sure if

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this applied to foreign slaves or not, but it's not critical.

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The next verse is really interesting. So the reason why

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in verse twenty the man is going to be avenged,

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most likely is because he's Hebrew, Like, you wouldn't avenge

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the killing of a foreigner. You would avenge the killing

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of a Hebrew because he's one of your own kin.

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And if you beat him so severely that it literally

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says in the Hebrew, if he dies under your hand,

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meaning while you're beating them. If you beat him so

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severely that they die while you're beating them, then you're

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in trouble. You just committed murder. But if the slave

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survives a day or two, there's no punishment, for the

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slave is the owner's property. And this is really important.

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The hebertext uses the verb a mod which literally means

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to stand or survive. Some older translations used to say

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if they if they are revived after a day or two,

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but that's not really what it says. What both these

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passages talking about a slave that dies say says if

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they survive for a day or two, which means they

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don't live they die after a day or two, It

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says there's no punishment because he is the owner's property.

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So what that means is there's a presumption of innocence

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where you can't tie the death of this slave to

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the beating that it received because it was a couple

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days later. And so this is even if you think

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that the Bible is only doing indentured serviantude. The idea

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that you can beat a slave so severely that if

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it dies in a couple of days, you won't be

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punished for it as horrific even if you only think

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it's temporary. Now, as you pointed out in Exus twenty one,

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it's not temporary. In fact, there are two different slaves

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that we find in Excess twenty one that are one

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Hebrew and two permanent. In verse two, we learn about

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a temporary male Hebrew slave because when you buy a

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male Hebrew slave, he shall serve you for six years,

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but in the seventh year he shall go out a

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free person without debt. Awesome. That's an indentured servant says.

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If he comes in single, he shall go out single.

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If he comes and married, then his wife shall go

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out with him. Interesting sounds like more indentured servitude. Verse

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four is where you get the fun stuff. If his

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master gives him a wife, which is in his ability

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to do, the woman doesn't have to consent. She's property.

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If his master gives them a wife and she bears

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them sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall

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be her masters and he shall go out alone.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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Speaker 3: Interesting, So an owner can choose to breed the women

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in his household the slaves like livestock, and if they

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produce children, that woman and her children remain property of

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the master. They don't get to go free. Even if

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they get married to this guy and have children, they

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don't get to go when that guy goes free. They're

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still permanent property. So God one commands permanent property in

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verse four. And then he tricks you. If you're like,

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if you get this woman, and you're like, listen, I

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don't want to leave my family, well then you can

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play to be a permanent slave to this master. What

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a horrific solution like that. He could have done ten

256
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other things. He could have said, well, let him go free.

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He could have said, well, I don't know, make them

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work another seven years. He didn't do any of that.

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He said, nope, if you want to be with your

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wife and your children, you have to be permanent slaves.

261
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So there's a second instance of saying do permanent slavery.

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Verse seven we get another instance. This says, when a

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man sells his daughter as a slave, which you could do.

264
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You can just sell your daughter as a slave or

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your son as a slave does, he shall serve. She

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shall not go out as the male slaves do. So

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when the woman goes and gets sold into servitude, he

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serves perpetually. She doesn't get to go free. Well why

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would that be the case, Well, it's clear because in

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the passage she becomes somebody's concubine. In the ancient Near East,

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when you sold somebody as a slave, her her body

272
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was yours, her sexual reproduction was yours. She didn't have autonomy.

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But it says if she does not please her master,

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who designated her for himself, then he shall let her

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be redeemed. So he can just buy a slave and

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then decide to you know, to go into her. This

277
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wasn't what she didn't ask for this, And we find

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other passages. There's a passage in Leviticus where if you

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sleep with another man's slave, you have to pay him

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restitution if you took her virginity. Interesting, if you take

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the virginity of somebody else's slave, whether it's forced or not,

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you have to pay the fine for a property crime.

283
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Because that woman that you purchased, most of her value,

284
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a lot of her value is in her virginity, not

285
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just in her ability to work, but also in her virginity.

286
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And this was common in the Encienteer East. If you

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read a lot of the engineers during slave contracts, we

288
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got a bunch from the ancient city of Mari that

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talk about women being both adopted and purchased so that

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they can become wives of somebody else. So you could

291
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literally adopt a baby girl with the intention of one

292
00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,320
day this girl will marry so and so. Like, we

293
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need a wife for so and so, there's not one

294
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in the family, so we're going to go adopt this

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child and raise it so it will be the wife

296
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of so and so. And they did the same thing

297
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with slaves. If there was we had a young man

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that needed a wife and there was no near kin

299
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or no one suitable for them, because you wanted to

300
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keep it within the family so that you didn't cause divisions.

301
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Well what do you do. Will you go buy a

302
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slave girl who has no other option, and you make

303
00:17:27,519 --> 00:17:31,599
her marry this young man. Women were just bought and

304
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sold like property. So when you see concubines in the

305
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Hebrew Bible, they're not that much different than sex slaves.

306
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Speaker 2: Is there a tribal distinction, then I mean the difference

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between chattel and debt slaves. Did that usually come down

308
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to whether they were Israeliance or whether they were foreigners.

309
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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the biggest distinction. So what we find in

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00:17:54,079 --> 00:17:56,599
the Hebrew Bible is that there's a whole different set

311
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of laws for foreigners and non foreigners. So, for example,

312
00:18:00,079 --> 00:18:02,680
you can't charge interest on a loan to an Israelite.

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You can charge interest on a loan to a foreigner.

314
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If you are owed money by an Israelite, you can't

315
00:18:09,599 --> 00:18:12,000
at any point just walk up and say today, I

316
00:18:12,039 --> 00:18:13,720
need all my money back. You're like, you can't just

317
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go in exact the money because you want it. But

318
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if a foreigner owes you money, you can decide on

319
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,039
your own when you want when you go and exact

320
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that money, and if they don't have your money, you

321
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,240
do the Bob Moss treatment to them. But we find

322
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also in Leviticus twenty five a very clear instance of

323
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God saying, listen, your fellow Israelites, don't don't enslave them.

324
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It's literally talking about men, which we'll touch on, but

325
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he's like, don't enslave your fellow Israelite brethren. Enslave these

326
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foreigners instead. And why is that the case? Ah, Because

327
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the Israelites they're my slaves, They're God's slaves. Right. So

328
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in verse thirty nine does if any who are dependent

329
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on you become so impoverished that they sell themselves to you,

330
00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,640
you shall not make them service slaves. Gotcha?

331
00:18:58,680 --> 00:18:59,039
Speaker 2: Okay?

332
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,319
Speaker 3: They shall re The main with you is hired or

333
00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,839
bound laborers a Hebrew like a shakir in Hebrew is

334
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somebody who works for money. But they still they still

335
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,039
are bound to you, even though they're getting paid. Says

336
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they shall remain with you as hired or bound laborers.

337
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Say They'll serve with you until the year of Jubilee.

338
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Then then their children shall go free out from your authority.

339
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They shall go back to their own family and return

340
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,640
to their ancestral property. For they are my slaves who

341
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I brought out of Egypt. And they shall not be

342
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sold as slaves are sold. But you shall not rule

343
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over them with harshness, and you shall fear your God.

344
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As for the male and female slaves whom you will have. Now,

345
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some translations say may which is interesting. The literal Hebrew

346
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text doesn't say may have. It says of the ones

347
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that will be to you. That's the direct literal translation

348
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of the slaves that will be to you, meaning the

349
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slaves that you will have. It says you may acquire

350
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them from among the aliens residing with you, and from

351
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their families who are with you, who have been born

352
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in your land. They may be your property Hebrew ahuza.

353
00:20:07,079 --> 00:20:11,039
Here it refers to actual movable property, like property that

354
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you own as a possession. It is yours. It's not temporary.

355
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It says you may keep them as a possession for

356
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your children after you, for them to inherit as property forever.

357
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So it says that they become your property Alam forever.

358
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And so what this means is that there's just a

359
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different classification for foreigners. You don't have to treat foreigners

360
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with the same level of kindness that you treat your

361
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own brethren, which is why it says in the same verse,

362
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:42,559
verse forty six says, but as for your fellow Israelites,

363
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,359
no one shall rule over the other with harshness. So

364
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what we're learning here then is that, listen, you can't

365
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be harsh to your fellow brethren. But it doesn't say

366
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anything about the foreigners. If you want to be harsh

367
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towards the foreigners. You know, be my guest, you can

368
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do that. And God doesn't seem to care that much

369
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about the foreigners being slaves, because even in the Messianic promise,

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So if you go to Treteau Isaiah third Isaiah, we

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find in chapter sixty this really interesting restoration promise. For

372
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like the New Age does the nation and kingdom that

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shall not serve you shall perish. Those nations shall be

374
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utterly laid waste. So God's holy vision is for eventually

375
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all the nations to serve the nation of Israel. This

376
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is not a God that cares if people are enslaved.

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Speaker 2: More with Justin d Z. Next, I want to continue

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with women in the Bible. I don't know how many

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times I've heard people say that God says you must

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honor women, and I'm like, have you read the Old

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and New Testament. We're going to get into more of

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than next. Your support on paidreon makes such a big difference.

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You get the show early in commercial free. Thank you

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00:22:05,559 --> 00:22:08,960
so much for signing up as a patron at paytreon

385
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:14,839
dot com. Slash Seth Andrew's continuing our Bible study now

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with Justin d Z of deconstruction zone. Speaking again to

387
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women as property in the Old Testament, reminded of numbers.

388
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It's Moses's army, and I'm going after the Midianites and

389
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the virgins taken as plunder right. And then I think

390
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,480
Moses got pissed off because not everyone was slaughtered. I'm

391
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,640
doing this from memory. You want to take me there justin.

392
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Speaker 3: Yeah, So God wants to do vengeance against the midi

393
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Nites for what happened at Pure So basically, some women

394
00:22:49,599 --> 00:22:55,759
induced the Israelite men to fornicate and to worship foreign gods,

395
00:22:55,799 --> 00:23:00,279
and God's like, listen, we need to avenge. What he

396
00:23:00,279 --> 00:23:02,559
means by avenge is we gotta go wipe them out.

397
00:23:02,599 --> 00:23:06,119
And this is typically this follows what we find in Deuteronomy.

398
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:10,160
And Deuteronomy God says, if somebody from another neighboring town

399
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:15,519
induces you to worship their deities, and you prostitute yourself

400
00:23:15,559 --> 00:23:18,359
to their deities, well you go and you genocide the

401
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,200
entire town. You wipe them all out. So we find

402
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,559
that happening in number thirty one. Now what is interesting

403
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,319
is it looks like the Israelite warriors were like, I

404
00:23:27,319 --> 00:23:31,000
don't know, maybe we don't have to do a complete genocide.

405
00:23:31,079 --> 00:23:33,960
Maybe we can save the women and children, which is

406
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,880
what you're allowed to do according to Deuteronomy chapter twenty

407
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,680
In Deuteronomy chapter twenty one, so they're like, I don't know,

408
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:44,000
maybe we preserve some of these women or some of

409
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,599
the children too. And Moses says, nope, he is mad.

410
00:23:47,839 --> 00:23:51,559
In verse thirteen, it says Moses eliers or the priests,

411
00:23:51,559 --> 00:23:53,319
and all the leaders of the congregation went to meet

412
00:23:53,319 --> 00:23:56,400
them outside of the camp. And Moses became angry at

413
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,799
the officers of the army. Well, why is he angry?

414
00:23:59,039 --> 00:24:02,240
Does the verse sixteen, and these women here on Balem's

415
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,640
advice made the Israelites act treacherously against the Lord in

416
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,160
the affair of pure so that the plague came among

417
00:24:09,279 --> 00:24:12,799
the congregation of the Lord. Now, therefore, kill every male

418
00:24:13,039 --> 00:24:16,319
among the little ones, and kill every woman who is

419
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,960
known a man by sleeping with them. So what we

420
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:23,839
find it doesn't say women the and the ones being

421
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:28,359
killed are children. They're referred to in Hebrew as hataf,

422
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:32,319
that means the children. Verse eighteen says, but among the

423
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:37,279
young girls, these are children, girls, child girls. In fact,

424
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,400
I believe in the nuke in the King James, it says,

425
00:24:39,519 --> 00:24:42,920
children girls says, but the young girls who have not

426
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,920
known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourself.

427
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,599
So he say, okay, we're gonna save these girls, well

428
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,839
for the like the warriors and the people of Israel.

429
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:54,880
And I mean, what do you think that they're gonna

430
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,240
they're gonna do with them? Right, Well, you might. There's

431
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,599
two problems that the apologist is gonna out. They're going

432
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,119
to say, well, Moses said to do this, not God.

433
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,880
Well that's wrong if you keep reading. They're also going

434
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,880
to say, well, they weren't used as war brides. Well,

435
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,559
that's also preposterous because their virginity wouldn't be in question.

436
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,000
If they just wanted slaves, they would have kept the

437
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,839
little boys alive and they wouldn't care about their virginity.

438
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,599
And also we're going to touch on Judges twenty one,

439
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,759
which will fix this up. But also God in verse

440
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:30,079
thirty two chimes in right, says, then Moses and aliars

441
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,680
are the priest did as the Lord commanded Moses, and

442
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,039
then we get the command that Lord gave them, says

443
00:25:36,079 --> 00:25:38,480
the plunder remaining from the spoils that the troops had

444
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,759
taken totaled six hundred and seventy five thousand sheep, seventy

445
00:25:42,799 --> 00:25:47,200
two thousand oxen, sixty one thousand donkeys, and thirty two

446
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,720
thousand persons, in all women who have not known a

447
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,480
man by sleeping with him. So now we learn that

448
00:25:53,559 --> 00:25:56,799
the plunder that God commanded them to take includes the

449
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,759
women who didn't know a man. And then what happens.

450
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:05,079
They get divided up. They're given to the soldiers, and

451
00:26:05,279 --> 00:26:09,720
it tells you that some of them, unfortunately, it appears

452
00:26:09,759 --> 00:26:13,000
they may actually have gotten sacrificed as well. There's some

453
00:26:13,039 --> 00:26:15,359
debate as to whether or not they actually got sacrificed,

454
00:26:16,279 --> 00:26:19,599
but it says they also separated the portion as God

455
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,599
commanded for the troops in verse forty two. So if

456
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,680
God is saying, listen, take these little virgin girls and

457
00:26:26,839 --> 00:26:30,000
hand them out to the troops, what do you think

458
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,359
they're doing with them? What do you think these young,

459
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:40,079
bloodthirsty warrior men are doing with these little virgin children girls? Well,

460
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:45,359
we don't have to guess. Judges twenty one describes exactly

461
00:26:45,559 --> 00:26:49,160
what we would expect. In Judges twenty one, they're dealing

462
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,160
with the fact that the Benjaminites don't have any women

463
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,039
to marry because the rest of the Israelites made a

464
00:26:55,079 --> 00:26:57,680
pledge not to give daughters to them because of what

465
00:26:57,759 --> 00:27:02,160
happened to the Levites concubine the bench. Knightes, there's a

466
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:07,559
whole story starting in chapter nineteen about the Levi andis concubine,

467
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,680
but it results in this pledge that might mean that

468
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,960
Benjamin's going to get wiped out from the land of

469
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,759
Israel because they don't have any girls to intermarry with.

470
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,559
So they devise a plan. How do we fix this problem?

471
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,359
Says now, the Israelites sworn at Mizpod no one shall

472
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,640
give his daughter to marriage to Benjamin. And the people

473
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,640
came to Bethel and sat there until evening before God.

474
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,519
They lived up their voices and wept bitterly. So now

475
00:27:32,519 --> 00:27:35,240
they're pleading before God. God, give us an answer with

476
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,599
this Benjamin situation. And they said, Oh, Lord, God of Israel,

477
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:40,680
why does it come to pass that today we should

478
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,920
be one tribe lacking in Israel. On the next day,

479
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,000
the people got up early and built an altar there

480
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,640
and offered burnt offerings and sacrifices as well. Being Then

481
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,480
the Israelites said, who out of all the tribes of

482
00:27:51,519 --> 00:27:54,440
Israel did not come up to the assembly of the Lord.

483
00:27:54,759 --> 00:27:57,200
They're like, Okay, who didn't actually go to battle with us?

484
00:27:57,279 --> 00:27:58,799
Is there a tribe that didn't go to battle with

485
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,839
us that we can hate? And he says that one

486
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,119
shall be put to death? So they're like, Ah, if

487
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,319
there's a tribe that didn't actually go to war with us,

488
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,039
they're not really part of us. We're gonna put them

489
00:28:08,039 --> 00:28:10,799
to death, says But the Israelites had compassion for Benjamin

490
00:28:10,839 --> 00:28:13,279
and their cans and said, one tribe is cut off

491
00:28:13,319 --> 00:28:16,039
from Israel today, what shall we do for the wives

492
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,119
of those who are left? Since we have sworn by

493
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,119
the Lord that we will not give any of them

494
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,400
our daughters in marriage. Then they said, is there anyone

495
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,200
from the tribes of Israel who did not come up

496
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,440
with the Lord to Mispa. It turned out that no

497
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,759
one from Jabesh Gilead had come up to the camp

498
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,839
to the assembly, So like, ah, gotcha, we found a

499
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,880
tribe that didn't go to war with us, So what

500
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,440
are we going to do about it? So they're like,

501
00:28:40,519 --> 00:28:46,079
We're gonna go and massacre this tribe and take their women. Says,

502
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,839
this is what they shall do. Every male and every

503
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,599
woman who is laying with a male, you shall devote

504
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,759
to destruction. So anyone who's not a virgin, kill them,

505
00:28:56,279 --> 00:28:59,359
wipe them out, says And they found among the inhabitants

506
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,400
of Jabesh four hundred young virgins who had never slept

507
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,759
with a man, and brought them to the camp at Shiloh,

508
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,319
which is in the land of Canaan. So here we

509
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,359
already know that the Israelites are out there looking for young,

510
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,200
little virgin girls that they can slaughter their families and

511
00:29:16,319 --> 00:29:19,640
take as captive wives. This is a practice that they did.

512
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,279
It's a practice that everybody else in the ancient nearest

513
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,119
was doing. And that's why number thirty one. Almost all

514
00:29:26,119 --> 00:29:29,920
scholars agree that these women would have been taken as

515
00:29:30,039 --> 00:29:35,039
slaves and concubine, and Deuteronomy twenty one allows it. Deuteronomy

516
00:29:35,079 --> 00:29:37,519
twenty one says, if you take a woman captive, and

517
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,519
you find among the captives a hotty toddy, and you

518
00:29:40,559 --> 00:29:42,160
want to make your your wife, you can take her

519
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,279
into your house, clipper and nails, shave her head, letter,

520
00:29:44,359 --> 00:29:46,799
mourn for thirty days for her dying or her dead

521
00:29:46,799 --> 00:29:49,119
mother and father, and then you can go into her.

522
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,640
So this is just acceptable behavior for the Israelites.

523
00:29:53,279 --> 00:29:56,759
Speaker 2: It's also somebody in my community raised it's kind of

524
00:29:56,759 --> 00:29:59,839
a graphic question. But how was it determined whether or

525
00:29:59,839 --> 00:30:03,119
not the young girls were virgins? And my brain doesn't

526
00:30:03,119 --> 00:30:06,200
even want to go there. Right, Interesting you mentioned Deuteronomy

527
00:30:06,279 --> 00:30:08,799
twenty one because it says that if the soldier ends

528
00:30:08,839 --> 00:30:11,240
up not being happy with the woman he just kidnapped

529
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,039
and totally altered her appearance, he can sort of release

530
00:30:14,079 --> 00:30:17,039
her like a stray cat. Oh hey, thanks anyway, have

531
00:30:17,119 --> 00:30:18,039
a nice life, right.

532
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, And this really defeats the bad apologetic of well

533
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,799
this was saving the women. God was concerned about these

534
00:30:26,839 --> 00:30:30,119
women and wanted to preserve them. Well that's not true.

535
00:30:30,519 --> 00:30:34,720
If by preserving them he was like providing for them

536
00:30:34,759 --> 00:30:39,319
through this war marriage, well then he wouldn't have said, hey,

537
00:30:39,359 --> 00:30:41,960
if they don't please you, you can just send them away. Right.

538
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,440
If this was really about protecting the women, he could

539
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,720
have said, Okay, set up a fund, take a tax,

540
00:30:48,319 --> 00:30:50,359
put a safety net together, and take care of these

541
00:30:50,359 --> 00:30:53,039
women and children that came from the battle because they've

542
00:30:53,079 --> 00:30:55,440
got nothing to depend on. But he doesn't do that.

543
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,599
He says, hey, if you see a hot one. By

544
00:30:57,599 --> 00:31:00,799
the way, that's the category if you see a hot one.

545
00:31:01,079 --> 00:31:03,119
He didn't say all the women. It's like, if you

546
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,400
see a hot one, Hayker, you can have her, but listen,

547
00:31:06,839 --> 00:31:09,200
if she doesn't please you, you can let her go. Right,

548
00:31:09,839 --> 00:31:14,079
So he certainly wasn't concerned with like helping the women out.

549
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,759
If they was concerned about that, then he wouldn't have

550
00:31:16,799 --> 00:31:19,079
commanded them to murder all of their children.

551
00:31:20,039 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 2: Let's do some bullets real fast. I mean, let's just

552
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,519
skip through some other examples of why the Old and

553
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,880
or New Testament fall apart under scrutiny.

554
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,079
Speaker 3: I think one of the most overlooked issues between the

555
00:31:36,119 --> 00:31:40,279
Old Testament and the New Testament is like this idea

556
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,400
of the afterlife, heaven, hell, and how do we go

557
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,200
from one to the other. Right, So, in the Hebrew Bible,

558
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,880
we don't really have a hell. We've got shei old.

559
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:50,880
It's like the realm of the dead, where everybody goes,

560
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,880
there's no distinction. And there's this idea like there's going

561
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,920
to be a resurrection at some point. Possibly we find

562
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,000
this in the Book of Isaiah, find it in Daniel

563
00:32:01,039 --> 00:32:04,119
chapter twelve. This idea that like the righteous the truly

564
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,160
righteous will be vindicated eventually and will rise. We even

565
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,000
find it in the Book of Job. So there is

566
00:32:10,079 --> 00:32:12,720
this idea that some people will come out of sheiol

567
00:32:13,079 --> 00:32:16,480
and possibly if Daniel's true, some others will come out

568
00:32:16,519 --> 00:32:19,200
of Siole, but they'll be punished. But there's not this

569
00:32:19,319 --> 00:32:23,000
idea that like, hey, listen, like if you follow this

570
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,519
law and you're you're not like you fail, like you're

571
00:32:26,559 --> 00:32:29,000
not perfect, well, now God has to light you on

572
00:32:29,079 --> 00:32:32,079
firefall of eternity. That's just not the case. In fact,

573
00:32:32,079 --> 00:32:36,279
the ancient conception was that while righteousness was living according

574
00:32:36,319 --> 00:32:39,759
to the law, the goal is that your righteousness needs

575
00:32:39,799 --> 00:32:44,359
to exceed your unrighteousness. It's like putting your righteousness on

576
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,359
a scale and weighing it against your unrighteousness. As long

577
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,680
as your unrighteousness didn't outweigh your righteousness, like you were

578
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,839
going to have a positive afterlife. And so we find

579
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,480
this in you know, ancient neuristern texts, We find it

580
00:32:57,519 --> 00:33:01,880
in Egyptian literature. It's a common thing, and so that's

581
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,920
kind of the Old Testament conception. In fact, even in

582
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:11,519
the in the Ecclesiastes Solomon, if you think Solomon wrote it,

583
00:33:11,559 --> 00:33:14,480
is like, listen, the dead know nothing. Whoever is writing

584
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,359
Ecclesiastes doesn't know. He doesn't believe in an afterlife, that's

585
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:22,359
for sure. That's why everything is vanity. So that's like

586
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,519
a huge problem because the New Testament is built on

587
00:33:25,599 --> 00:33:29,039
this idea that there's a hell. If you're not perfect,

588
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,680
you're going there. God's got a torture for all eternity.

589
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,759
But it doesn't matter if you're righteous, doesn't matter if

590
00:33:35,799 --> 00:33:38,799
you're a good person. If you don't want to go

591
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,799
to hell, you have to believe in this sky carcass

592
00:33:41,799 --> 00:33:44,759
and the nonsense that he preached. You'll never find anything

593
00:33:44,839 --> 00:33:45,759
like that in the Hebrew Bible.

594
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 2: It is a great point, right, It's only was it

595
00:33:48,799 --> 00:33:51,880
Christopher Hitchins who said it wasn't until gentle Jesus, meek

596
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,519
and mild that we saw this threat of eternal torture.

597
00:33:55,519 --> 00:33:58,240
The apologists like to go back and forth on whether

598
00:33:58,319 --> 00:33:59,960
or not it's a literal hell, but I always good

599
00:34:00,039 --> 00:34:03,200
back to Matthew twenty five, Right, depart, you who are

600
00:34:03,279 --> 00:34:05,960
cursed into a lake of everlasting fire, prepared for the

601
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,320
devil and his angels. How do apologist try to get

602
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,039
around that? It's a tough one.

603
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,679
Speaker 3: So you've pointed out one of the contradictions in the

604
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,360
New Testament. So Paul and Jesus are both guilty of

605
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,760
this where they're like, they say, listen, unless you believe

606
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:26,159
in me, right, you're going to hell. But then Paul's

607
00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:30,199
on this whole trick of like, well, it's by belief alone,

608
00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:33,119
it's by faith alone, right, But then he goes on

609
00:34:33,159 --> 00:34:36,239
and he's like, also in one Corinthian sixty nine, if

610
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,320
you commit all these sins, you're going to hell. Also

611
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,519
in Revelation twenty one Versus seven and eight, if you

612
00:34:41,559 --> 00:34:44,519
commit these sins, you're going to hell. And Jesus himself

613
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,119
talked about various sins. If you commit these sins like

614
00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:50,159
the unforgivable sin, you know you're going to hell. And

615
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,960
some of the most famous passages, like in Matthew five,

616
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,599
he says like, hey, listen, if your eye causes you

617
00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:57,840
to lust, pluck it out. If your arm causes you

618
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,119
to sin, cut it off, because it's better to to

619
00:35:00,679 --> 00:35:05,360
go into the kingdom missing one, he remembers, and to

620
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,159
have your whole body thrown into hell. So if that's

621
00:35:08,199 --> 00:35:12,280
the case, like if if committing sins means that you're

622
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,079
you could go to hell. Then, like this whole like

623
00:35:15,519 --> 00:35:18,880
salvation by faith alone, just it doesn't check out. If

624
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,159
it's by faith alone, it doesn't matter what sin you commit.

625
00:35:22,519 --> 00:35:25,239
You can commit any sin other than the unforgivable sin

626
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,320
and can still go to heaven. But though that contradicts

627
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,840
directly Jesus is his own words, like you said in

628
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,800
Matthew twenty five, is a depart from me. You workers

629
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,519
of iniquity? Well, I mean, if you're a worker of iniquity,

630
00:35:36,559 --> 00:35:40,280
who isn't everybody's a worker of iniquity? Right? So it's

631
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,360
an interesting it's an interesting new Destmer problem. How could

632
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,280
be by faith alone? But also if you're a worker

633
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,039
of iniquity, which we all are. Romans three twenty three

634
00:35:49,119 --> 00:35:51,880
says everyone has fallen short of glory of God, Well,

635
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:53,400
then nobody goes to happen apparently.

636
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 2: Well, it's another doctrinal debate, right James. Chapter two says

637
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,679
faith without works is dead. So wait a minute. I

638
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:02,719
might say by faith, but if I don't have works,

639
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,760
then my faith is nullified. And then what about the

640
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,639
people who have a deathbed conversion and didn't have time

641
00:36:08,679 --> 00:36:11,800
to do good works? Is that faith nullified. Right the

642
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,840
apologist squabble over that one as well.

643
00:36:15,039 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it goes back to this whole nonsense of

644
00:36:18,039 --> 00:36:20,920
like faith verse works. You know, James famously said that

645
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,880
faith of that works is dead. I think James is

646
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:28,519
writing and responding to Pauline doctrine. And I don't think

647
00:36:28,559 --> 00:36:30,920
Paul really knew what Jesus taught most of the time,

648
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,320
maybe some of it, which is why he had this

649
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,360
faith by works or of faith, not by works. But

650
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,920
Jesus would have contradicted it if Jesus lived after Paul. Jesus

651
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,920
would have thought Paul was an idiot. Jesus himself, in

652
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:48,199
Matthew five, literally says the exact opposite of Paul. Paul

653
00:36:48,199 --> 00:36:50,800
says in Pheesians, chapter two, verse fourteen fifteen that Jesus

654
00:36:51,039 --> 00:36:54,239
abolished the law in all of its commandments. But that

655
00:36:54,519 --> 00:36:57,159
certainly couldn't be the case because it's a direct contradiction

656
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:01,880
of Matthew five seventeen through nineteen, where Jesus. I don't

657
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,880
think Jesus made the following the law like the only

658
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,400
thing you have to do to obtain salvation. He obviously

659
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,599
thinks that you have to believe in him he says,

660
00:37:10,599 --> 00:37:12,920
no man comes to the Father except through me. But

661
00:37:13,159 --> 00:37:16,360
Jesus did not abolish the law word for word, bar

662
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:20,360
for bar. He contradicts Ephesian chapter two and says, I've

663
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,960
come not to abolish, but to fulfill. Well, fulfill doesn't

664
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,960
mean abolish, doesn't mean it goes away. If you think

665
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,559
fulfilled says that the law goes away, then that just

666
00:37:29,639 --> 00:37:32,880
means abolish. And he said I didn't come to abolish,

667
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,800
That means fulfilled must mean like, actually bring it to completion,

668
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,480
but not make it go away. Now, most scholars will

669
00:37:40,519 --> 00:37:43,519
tell you that when Jesus says fulfill, what he really

670
00:37:43,559 --> 00:37:49,360
means is, I'm bringing the law to a more complete form.

671
00:37:49,679 --> 00:37:52,639
Like I'm giving you like the law is basic, right,

672
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,519
I'm giving you the dressed up version. I'm giving you

673
00:37:56,559 --> 00:37:59,239
the hard stuff. Right, I'm taking the law of Moses

674
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,400
that I'm I'm making it full. That's why if you

675
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,639
look at how he changed it in the same chapter,

676
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,920
he doesn't say not to follow the law. He makes

677
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,079
it harder. He adds to the law, which is a

678
00:38:11,159 --> 00:38:13,480
violation of Deuteronomy four Versus one and two. But that's

679
00:38:13,519 --> 00:38:16,039
neither here nor there. That's why Jesus goes on to say,

680
00:38:16,119 --> 00:38:18,559
for truly, I tell you, until heaven and earth passed away,

681
00:38:18,599 --> 00:38:20,639
not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will

682
00:38:20,639 --> 00:38:23,280
pass away from the law until all is accomplished. And

683
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,960
some Christians will quit reading there, But they need to

684
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:30,800
read the next verse. Therefore, whoever that's anybody whoever breaks

685
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:32,760
one of the least of these commandments and teaches others

686
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:34,719
to do the same, will be called least in the

687
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,360
Kingdom of heaven. But whoever does them and teaches them

688
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:38,840
will be called great in the kingom of Heaven. So,

689
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,320
according to Jesus, if you want to be great in

690
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,719
the Kingdom of Heaven, you got to follow the law.

691
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,800
That's why, when the ritual ruler comes to him and says,

692
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,000
what must I do to inherit eternal life, he says,

693
00:38:48,079 --> 00:38:51,880
follow the commandments. When he heals the leper, he says,

694
00:38:52,119 --> 00:38:54,519
go present yourself at the temple according to the law

695
00:38:54,559 --> 00:38:59,559
of Moses. Jesus in the Gospels say a single word

696
00:38:59,679 --> 00:39:02,480
about the law going away, and he ends Matthew twenty

697
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,679
eight by telling the disciples, go and teach people all

698
00:39:05,679 --> 00:39:07,920
that I have commanded you. Well, he commanded you to

699
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,000
follow the law which means Jesus's telling you to go

700
00:39:11,079 --> 00:39:12,320
teach people to follow the law.

701
00:39:13,199 --> 00:39:16,639
Speaker 2: It's also interesting to watch the New Covenant believers who

702
00:39:16,679 --> 00:39:20,519
have essentially written off the entire Old Testament ten commandments.

703
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,920
They want the ten Commandments hung through about our culture

704
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,599
and the du well, hang on. If the New Covenant

705
00:39:26,639 --> 00:39:29,239
trumped the Old and the Old is now obsolete because

706
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,320
it was a different time blah blah blah, then how

707
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,719
much of the Old Testament have you just written off?

708
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:35,920
And how would God feel about that? Right?

709
00:39:36,679 --> 00:39:40,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the double edged sword that the Christian has

710
00:39:40,119 --> 00:39:41,880
to deal with. If you want to say that the

711
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,440
law was done away with, then that means all of

712
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,440
the law. If you're going to use Jesus's words to

713
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,039
get rid of the law, then you can't subdivide it

714
00:39:50,039 --> 00:39:52,800
and say, well except for these ones, these ones that

715
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,159
I like, even though the tenth Commandment they hate because

716
00:39:55,199 --> 00:39:59,599
it includes slavery. Like, there's nothing in the Bible that

717
00:39:59,679 --> 00:40:05,280
secctions off the law into different categories. In the Hebrew Bible.

718
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,960
The best you'll get is there's a mention in the

719
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,800
Hebrew Bible of the decalogue as like the ten these

720
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,519
ten commandments are a little bit unique. But the New

721
00:40:13,559 --> 00:40:16,679
Testament doesn't do that. The New Testament never says that

722
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,079
you should follow the ten commandments, only you'll never find

723
00:40:20,119 --> 00:40:22,519
it there. In fact, even the two most important commands

724
00:40:22,519 --> 00:40:25,360
from Matthew twenty two, Jesus says to love the Lord

725
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,599
you got with all your mineheart and soul. That's Deuteronomy six'.

726
00:40:28,679 --> 00:40:31,000
Five then he, says love your neighbor as yourself As

727
00:40:31,079 --> 00:40:34,000
leviticus nineteen. Eighteen neither one of them part of the Ten.

728
00:40:34,039 --> 00:40:38,800
Commandments so to be, clear the two most important commandments

729
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,519
are not part of the, ten which means you can't

730
00:40:41,559 --> 00:40:44,159
then go and, say, Well jesus wants you to follow

731
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,760
only the ten. Commandments, well that can't be. True the

732
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:48,880
two most important ones don't even come from the. Ten

733
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:51,800
and if you look at the rich young, ruler the

734
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,239
last thing he tells the rich young ruler is to

735
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,480
follow a commandment that's not part of the ten. Commandments

736
00:40:58,519 --> 00:41:02,920
so just following the ten. Amendments it's not a rubric

737
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,920
That jesus lays. Out this is something That christians have

738
00:41:06,039 --> 00:41:08,440
to invent because they're, like oh, gosh if we get

739
00:41:08,519 --> 00:41:10,519
rid of all the, LAWS i guess we don't have

740
00:41:10,559 --> 00:41:11,039
any moral.

741
00:41:11,039 --> 00:41:14,760
Speaker 2: Structure you've been so generous with your. TIME i want

742
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:16,480
to get back, to like maybe one or two more

743
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:18,559
of your greatest. HITS i do want to address. Something

744
00:41:18,599 --> 00:41:21,000
there is a fallacious argument THAT i hear some atheists,

745
00:41:21,039 --> 00:41:25,320
make and some believers get into. THIS i know some

746
00:41:25,679 --> 00:41:30,079
more progressive pastors say That jesus never condemned. Homosexuals of

747
00:41:30,079 --> 00:41:32,000
course we get into, well if you're right off The Old,

748
00:41:32,039 --> 00:41:35,760
covenant then That's leviticus and its condemnation of gay, people.

749
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,199
Etc but The New testament never does. That that's not.

750
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:43,400
Accurate you get Into. ROMANS i think it's In, Carinthians. Firs.

751
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:47,360
Timothy there's a lot there are. Scriptures Not jesus didn't

752
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:51,519
say the, words but there are scriptures against abominations quote

753
00:41:51,639 --> 00:41:55,519
unquote unnatural, acts men lying with, men women lying with.

754
00:41:55,599 --> 00:42:00,239
Women so The New testament does condemn. HOMOSEXUALITY i think

755
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,880
it's important to draw that distinction and, say you, know

756
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,920
you can't say it's ONLY O t And jesus was

757
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,119
all light and. Love that's, fair isn't? It justin it's

758
00:42:09,159 --> 00:42:09,519
totally as.

759
00:42:09,559 --> 00:42:13,280
Speaker 3: Fair let's imagine for a second that you're A christian

760
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,840
and you believe That leviticus does condemn, homosexuality and that

761
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:21,280
the destruction Of, soadakamorra Despite ezekiel saying that it was about,

762
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,320
hospitality that you, know homosexuality was part of the, problem

763
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,559
WHICH i actually agree with. THAT i think part of

764
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:32,880
the description of The sodomites and also those From gibbea

765
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,599
during The levites concubine. Story the reason why they describe

766
00:42:36,639 --> 00:42:40,599
them specifically as wanting to sexualize the men is because

767
00:42:40,639 --> 00:42:43,880
they believe that that was an indicator of. Evil, so

768
00:42:44,119 --> 00:42:46,639
but imagine for a second that that's just now part

769
00:42:46,639 --> 00:42:50,440
of The Old testament. Law, well if you Believe jesus's, words,

770
00:42:50,559 --> 00:42:52,719
Well jesus says to follow The Old testament, law as

771
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,119
we just, discussed which means you can't just throw the

772
00:42:55,199 --> 00:42:57,920
law away and, say well that's, old we don't care

773
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,280
about that, anymore because he's said to follow. It. Now

774
00:43:01,559 --> 00:43:04,719
the other problem you have Is. Paul paul literally says

775
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:10,920
In First corinthians chapter six that the male better is

776
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,039
going to not inherit the, kingdom meaning a man who

777
00:43:14,119 --> 00:43:16,119
shares a bed with another. Man that seems to be,

778
00:43:16,159 --> 00:43:20,519
problematic and we get a similar situation In romans chapter,

779
00:43:20,599 --> 00:43:26,400
one where he talks about homosexuality engaging in unnatural, lusts

780
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,719
and he, says even the. Women, now it was common

781
00:43:30,159 --> 00:43:35,800
for men sometimes In Roman Greco roman culture to engage

782
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:39,760
in sexual acts with other, men but women, less so

783
00:43:40,599 --> 00:43:46,159
it was seen as like a special form of, debauchery

784
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:50,079
like because it was more. Rare and So paul that's

785
00:43:50,159 --> 00:43:54,199
like his. Capstone he's, like even the women exchange natural

786
00:43:54,199 --> 00:43:58,519
relations with men for other. Women So paul's, like, nah,

787
00:43:58,639 --> 00:44:01,679
man this is not. Good SO i know there's a

788
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:05,239
big effort in the church and with liberal scholars to

789
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:10,079
make homosexually homosexual stuff go. Away they, say, well it's

790
00:44:10,119 --> 00:44:12,360
not exactly the way it is. Today they're not really

791
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:17,360
talking about consensual loving, relationships or they're just talking about the.

792
00:44:17,599 --> 00:44:20,239
Act there's so many things you can do to make

793
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,599
it go. Away to, me this is a. COPE i get.

794
00:44:23,639 --> 00:44:25,800
IT i read the scholar. LITERATURE i know there's an

795
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,679
argument to be made. HERE i know there, Is but

796
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,320
from an atheist, Standpoint i'm reading this book from WHAT

797
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,639
i know about the ancient. Culture i'm, saying, listen they

798
00:44:35,679 --> 00:44:38,880
thought homosexuality was a. Sin that's why it's demonized in The.

799
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:42,599
Bible rather than trying to make it go. Away just

800
00:44:42,679 --> 00:44:45,480
throw The bible, out get rid of. It you don't

801
00:44:45,519 --> 00:44:48,159
need it's not helping. You rather than trying to say

802
00:44:48,199 --> 00:44:51,000
words don't mean. Words just get rid of the. Book

803
00:44:51,199 --> 00:44:51,679
you don't need.

804
00:44:51,679 --> 00:44:55,039
Speaker 2: It you Mentioned. SODOM i go back To genesis. Nineteen,

805
00:44:55,199 --> 00:44:58,480
Right lot one of the heroes of The Old, testament

806
00:44:58,639 --> 00:45:02,039
and he's got the two male angels in his house

807
00:45:02,079 --> 00:45:05,679
as his, guests and the man Of sodom rise up

808
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:09,239
because they want to have homosexual relations with the male.

809
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,719
Angels and what Does lot. Do he's, like, ah, crap, no, no,

810
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:14,880
no we don't want. That let me protect my guests,

811
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:18,559
HERE i have two virgin. Daughters let me throw them

812
00:45:18,599 --> 00:45:20,559
out the door to, you and then you can do

813
00:45:20,679 --> 00:45:23,920
whatever you want with. Him and Yet lot still remained

814
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,159
a biblical hero of the. Story right.

815
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:31,800
Speaker 3: Yeah in, fact if you Read jude And Tewod, Peter

816
00:45:32,519 --> 00:45:35,960
lot is lauded as like a righteous. Man if you

817
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:40,000
go To Second, peter chapter, TWO i believe it talks About. Lot.

818
00:45:40,519 --> 00:45:45,559
Yeah down in verse six seven and, eight it, says

819
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:50,320
if he Rescued, lot a righteous man really distressed by

820
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,199
the debauchery of. Lawlessness, wait what a righteous. MAN i

821
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,559
mean you. Can you can offer your virgin daughters as

822
00:45:57,679 --> 00:46:02,480
playtoys to these barbarians and you're a righteous. Man that's.

823
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:05,199
Crazy the funniest thing about that, story, too which people,

824
00:46:05,199 --> 00:46:09,079
forget is remember how the story. Resolves the angels strike

825
00:46:09,159 --> 00:46:12,679
the men outside of the house, blind which Means lot

826
00:46:13,679 --> 00:46:16,800
could have just asked the angels to do something for

827
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,239
him like HE i THINK i personally think That lot

828
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,760
knew that they weren't just, men even though it refers

829
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:25,119
to him as. MEN i think A lot probably knew

830
00:46:25,119 --> 00:46:27,719
they were, special knew they were, angels and so like

831
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,039
A lot could have been, like, Hey, god is there

832
00:46:30,039 --> 00:46:32,800
anything we could do about? This but that's not what he.

833
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:34,440
Did he, Did i'm going to offer my. Daughters the

834
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,239
other problem is the. Angels they knew that they were,

835
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,239
angels they knew that they had special. Power they could

836
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:44,000
have stepped in Before lot offered his, daughters and, like

837
00:46:44,039 --> 00:46:46,440
we got, it A lot just Killed just sit over, here.

838
00:46:46,519 --> 00:46:48,480
Right so the whole story is.

839
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:52,320
Speaker 2: Bananas you've Got god watching the whole thing go, down

840
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:55,159
so beyond the power of the, Angels god could have, said,

841
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:58,440
hey none of this, right none of these Shenanigans i'm

842
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,480
going to stop the whole, thing and our last, SEGMENT

843
00:47:02,519 --> 00:47:05,199
i Asked justin if there's anything else he wants to

844
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:07,599
talk about some of the stuff that's in his wheelhouse

845
00:47:07,599 --> 00:47:10,119
and on his mind in regard to The bible that's.

846
00:47:10,119 --> 00:47:18,199
Coming i'm just. Second lots of free thought events on

847
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,559
the conference calendar already for twenty twenty, six and more

848
00:47:21,679 --> 00:47:24,519
are coming in all the. Time so, far it's Me

849
00:47:24,679 --> 00:47:28,760
Forrest valkei And Gutzig Gibbon march seventh And, tulsa The

850
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:33,159
Western Canadian Reason conference In calgary first weekend In. May

851
00:47:33,639 --> 00:47:36,679
coming Up august twenty first through the twenty, third It's

852
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:41,880
Baja khan In, Sarnia, ontario and Then Rocket City reason In, Huntsville,

853
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:45,679
alabama third weekend In. October details on all of this

854
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:50,239
with links and everything at The thinkingatheist dot com slash.

855
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:55,400
Events Our bible study continues now with my special Guest

856
00:47:55,719 --> 00:48:01,639
justin de Z. Any final example thoughts before we put

857
00:48:01,679 --> 00:48:04,559
a punctuation mark on, It BEFORE i let you, Go, Justin.

858
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 3: I've got a lot of hours of debate footage and

859
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:12,199
videos of me talking about How jesus fulfilled exactly zero messianic.

860
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:14,920
Prophecies So i'm not going to go over that. Today

861
00:48:15,599 --> 00:48:18,719
there's dozens of videos of me on the internet doing.

862
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:20,960
That BUT i do want to go over one of

863
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,519
my favorite topics in The bible THAT i don't think

864
00:48:23,519 --> 00:48:27,719
it's enough, love, namely like the cosmology of The bible

865
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:32,679
is absolute. Bananas they have no idea what the real

866
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:38,559
cosmos is, like and they depict a cosmos that is, small.

867
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,920
Localized there's a flat Disc earth with a dome over

868
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,480
top of, it And god lives on the dome and

869
00:48:45,519 --> 00:48:48,679
that's part of the. Sky some of the newer translations

870
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,159
just say. It it just says, dome like The nabre THE,

871
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:57,519
NASRV nrsv, Says god, said let there be a dome

872
00:48:57,960 --> 00:48:59,880
in the midst of the, water and let it separate

873
00:49:00,159 --> 00:49:02,760
water from. Waters So god made a dome and it

874
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:05,280
separated the waters that were under the dome and the

875
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,079
waters that were above the. Dome And god called the dome.

876
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:11,800
Sky how Sham iam In hebrew and The hebrews, understood

877
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:14,880
according to The, bible That god lived at the top

878
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:17,079
of the, dome like he walked on top of the.

879
00:49:17,119 --> 00:49:21,440
Dome and we've got passages Describing god walking on the,

880
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:25,480
dome and they described it as being. Hard In, job

881
00:49:25,559 --> 00:49:29,039
he says it's hard like a cast metal. Mirror That's

882
00:49:29,119 --> 00:49:35,119
job thirty, Seven verse eighteen says it's hard as a molten. Mirror,

883
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:38,639
Okay so we got this hard dome And god lives

884
00:49:38,679 --> 00:49:41,960
up there according To psalm one fifty verse one and

885
00:49:42,039 --> 00:49:46,239
says also In job verse twenty two, fourteen thick clouds

886
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:49,400
in wrap. Him So god's in the clouds so that

887
00:49:50,119 --> 00:49:53,719
he does not see and he walks on the dome Of.

888
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:57,679
Heaven what you can walk on The dome Of? Heaven, well,

889
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:01,119
yeah because it's a, hard lean, dome which is why

890
00:50:01,159 --> 00:50:04,159
when A zehiel goes up to visit the, dome he,

891
00:50:04,199 --> 00:50:07,000
says like it's it looks like. Sapphire and we get

892
00:50:07,039 --> 00:50:10,880
something as well In access twenty four when the elders

893
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,719
go up on the mountain and they Visit, god they

894
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,679
see like something like sapphire under his. Feet so we

895
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:21,920
just we have all these references to this idea that

896
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:24,880
there's a dome over the, earth and it says that

897
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:28,280
the stars are up in. There If genesis one Says

898
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:31,199
god set them in the dome of the sky and

899
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:33,920
gave light upon The, earth referring to like the celestial.

900
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:38,719
Bodies so according to The, bible the celestial bodies are

901
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,159
like up at the bottom of the, Dome it, says

902
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:45,719
the birds fly across the face of the. Dome god

903
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:47,880
lives on top of the dome and walks on the

904
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:50,639
top of the. Dome and the only problem they have

905
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:53,079
to solve is, like, well how does how Does god

906
00:50:53,119 --> 00:50:54,840
live on top of the dome the dome if there's

907
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,760
water up? There, well the rabbis tell you in The,

908
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:02,000
tulmud there's a, gap there's an air gap created By god's,

909
00:51:02,039 --> 00:51:04,880
spirit and the water is above the air, gap And

910
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:07,719
god lives in that air gap between the water and

911
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:10,039
between the, dome and that was their.

912
00:51:10,199 --> 00:51:15,159
Speaker 2: Cosmology doesn't the dome also play into the genesis flood? Myth,

913
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:19,079
right because there was water somehow above the dome in,

914
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:22,719
space and then apparently the water On earth and the

915
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:26,559
water from above the firmament combined to flood The. EARTH

916
00:51:26,639 --> 00:51:27,840
i Think i'm remembering that.

917
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:32,559
Speaker 3: Correctly, so, yeah the windows Of, heaven you, know open

918
00:51:32,679 --> 00:51:37,400
up this idea that the dome had like windows or

919
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:41,519
doors in it that could let like atmospheric stuff, down

920
00:51:41,679 --> 00:51:44,440
like rain or snow that was definitely up in. There

921
00:51:44,559 --> 00:51:46,559
and if you're in the ancient world and you look,

922
00:51:46,639 --> 00:51:48,199
up you're, like, well why is the sky? Blue, well

923
00:51:48,199 --> 00:51:50,360
because there's water up, there that's why the sky is.

924
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:52,960
Blue and there's a. Dome if you just stand on

925
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,320
a high hill and turn, around it's obviously a dome.

926
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:58,199
Shape and that's what they. Believe and we get in

927
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:00,559
some later, literature like in The book Of, enoch we

928
00:52:00,599 --> 00:52:03,920
get like a really good description of what we find

929
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:06,320
in the. Dome in, Fact i've GOT i have a

930
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:08,000
whiteboard with. ME i don't know IF i have my

931
00:52:08,039 --> 00:52:13,400
whiteboard up. Here but so Basically enoch is, like, listen the.

932
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:17,440
Sun the sun travels around the, earth, right how is that?

933
00:52:17,519 --> 00:52:20,360
Gonna how's that? Happening? Right so he's, like, listen we've

934
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:23,639
got this dome and the dome at the at the

935
00:52:23,639 --> 00:52:26,760
base of, it where it meets the, earth well there's.

936
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:30,599
Windows so he's he's, like, listen the sun goes like,

937
00:52:30,639 --> 00:52:33,239
This it goes across the bottom of the dome out

938
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:37,079
the window below the, earth back in another window in

939
00:52:37,119 --> 00:52:39,280
the cross the face of the dome. Again and so

940
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:42,239
that's How enoch is trying to figure out how does

941
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,400
The sun go around The earth if The earth is

942
00:52:44,519 --> 00:52:47,400
encased in a dome like obviously there's windows in, it

943
00:52:48,079 --> 00:52:50,679
and so ancient cosmology is just.

944
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 2: Wild all, right final, Question i'm going to send everybody

945
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:56,239
to your page because we could go on or, not

946
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:58,480
and let me ask a final question that would take

947
00:52:58,559 --> 00:53:02,000
three weeks to properly, answer Because i'm kind of an asshole.

948
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:05,920
Justin but one of the things that we talk about

949
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:09,400
is how much Of yahweh as a, god how many

950
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:13,079
of the stories of The Old testament are borrowed from earlier,

951
00:53:13,199 --> 00:53:18,639
cultures perhaps earlier, religions other gods and. Mythologies AND i

952
00:53:18,679 --> 00:53:21,199
know many don't call it plagiarism because there were sort

953
00:53:21,199 --> 00:53:25,079
of genre, gods there were genre flood, stories. Etc so

954
00:53:25,159 --> 00:53:29,239
many religions were expected to have certain types of tales

955
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:31,719
in their. Scriptures but do you get in at all

956
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:33,559
too how much of this stuff is not?

957
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 3: Original SO i used TO i personally don't find that

958
00:53:41,679 --> 00:53:46,239
it's helpful in the deconstruction, work Although i've written a

959
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:48,599
lot of articles on my website over the years about,

960
00:53:48,599 --> 00:53:52,639
this and the first eleven chapters are typically referred to

961
00:53:52,679 --> 00:53:55,599
as a primeval history and what you'll find in the

962
00:53:55,639 --> 00:53:59,280
first eleven chapters Of genesis is almost every story in,

963
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:03,920
there almost everyone has A babylonian Or sumerian. Counterpart even The,

964
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:08,320
tower there's A sumerian story about people coming together to

965
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:11,800
build a mound and they all spoke the same, language

966
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:14,360
and then the gods looked. Down it was, like, nope

967
00:54:14,559 --> 00:54:17,119
not going to have, that and they they impeded the

968
00:54:17,159 --> 00:54:20,440
work of building the, mound and then they scattered the

969
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:24,679
people in their. Language like everything, there everything's copied from babylon,

970
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:27,440
mythology even the creation Of adam And. Eve in babylon,

971
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,440
mythology they took the clay of the earth and molded

972
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:32,920
into a, human and Then god put his breath into

973
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:37,039
it and also blood into. It so there's two divine

974
00:54:37,039 --> 00:54:40,440
things inside of every. Human one is. Blood that's Why

975
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:42,320
leviticus says that the life is in the, blood and

976
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:45,679
two is the, spirit the wind Of. God that's why

977
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:48,800
when we, die you, know the spirit leaves. Us we're

978
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:52,079
no longer not breathing. Anymore so it's like we're basically

979
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:57,079
just like dirt, bags and we're being animated by, life

980
00:54:57,119 --> 00:55:00,199
and that life comes from The. Gods that means part

981
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:02,599
of the gods are living in, us and that's what

982
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:05,840
animates our, dirt, bags the blood and the wind Of.

983
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:09,760
God and you'll find that in The babylonian, literature and

984
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:13,800
so like just, everything like this idea that entities came

985
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:16,320
down and made it with humans and created. Giants it's

986
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:21,360
in The babylonian. Literature this idea of like a sacred

987
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:25,360
tree in the garden and snakes robbing the humanity of.

988
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,159
Immortality that's the epic Of gilgamesh and the epic Of.

989
00:55:28,159 --> 00:55:31,280
Gogomesh he goes like basically the edge of known existence

990
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:34,000
to Find utnapishtam to figure out how he can become,

991
00:55:34,079 --> 00:55:38,239
immortal and in doing so he discovers as a plant

992
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:40,119
at the bottom of the sea Of. Death he dives

993
00:55:40,199 --> 00:55:42,719
down into, it gets the plant and is on the

994
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:46,440
shore of the of the water when a snake comes

995
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:51,079
and snags the plant of immortality away from, him and

996
00:55:51,119 --> 00:55:52,079
then he never gets to be.

997
00:55:52,079 --> 00:55:55,800
Speaker 2: Immortal gilgamesh, too and then like the flood, story, right

998
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:58,840
the gods become irritated with humankind and decide to flood

999
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:00,199
the whole damn planet to.

1000
00:56:00,199 --> 00:56:04,639
Speaker 3: Do, yeah we've got four different editions of the flood

1001
00:56:04,679 --> 00:56:08,760
narrative at least prior to the biblical, version and so

1002
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:14,039
were they, Copying, yeah obviously they're obviously. Copying the other thing,

1003
00:56:14,079 --> 00:56:18,320
too is like the idea of the. Boat that's super.

1004
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:22,719
Common every flood narrative has like somebody with a boat

1005
00:56:23,039 --> 00:56:27,559
that is like being preserved via the. Boat why The

1006
00:56:27,599 --> 00:56:30,960
god sent the flood, changes that's one thing that. Changes

1007
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:34,800
and the creation of humankind and the relationship To god

1008
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:38,079
is a little bit. Different like the gods in The

1009
00:56:38,079 --> 00:56:40,880
babylonian narratives are like annoyed by the humans because they're

1010
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:43,000
making too much noise down, Here, like, hey we created

1011
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:45,599
these humans to do our work for, us but they're

1012
00:56:45,599 --> 00:56:47,480
actually making a whole bunch of, noise and so maybe

1013
00:56:47,519 --> 00:56:49,400
we should just wipe them. Out that's a little bit

1014
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:52,000
different in the. Story one thing that's not different, though

1015
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:54,920
is that humans were created to do the work Of.

1016
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:58,280
God so like even In genesis it says That adam

1017
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:01,559
was placed in the, garden like typical translation will say

1018
00:57:01,599 --> 00:57:05,159
something like to work the garden or to tend to the,

1019
00:57:05,159 --> 00:57:08,239
garden but actually used as the same root word for,

1020
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:13,079
slave so it is an evid so Like adam is

1021
00:57:13,119 --> 00:57:16,920
a slave in the, garden which matches the biblical narrative

1022
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:19,760
where humans are created to kind of Do god's.

1023
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:22,599
Speaker 2: Work we can talk all, night we can talk to

1024
00:57:22,679 --> 00:57:26,239
sundown and probably to. Sunrise this is my. Jam where

1025
00:57:26,239 --> 00:57:28,400
do people find you and your? WORK i want to

1026
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:30,480
make sure they have a chance to see some of

1027
00:57:30,519 --> 00:57:33,280
your long form productions. There, yeah thanks for.

1028
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:37,159
Speaker 3: Asking So i've got a TikTok channel in two YouTube,

1029
00:57:37,239 --> 00:57:39,960
channels And i'll explain WHY i have two YouTube. Channels

1030
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:43,239
i've got one that is dedicated to just. Debates it's

1031
00:57:43,239 --> 00:57:47,280
CALLED Dz, debates where it's literally just old, school you,

1032
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:51,239
know horizontal, format just me doing. Debates i've also got another,

1033
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:54,280
channel my main, channel which is Called Deconstruction, zone and

1034
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:58,119
it's got my, debates most of them in vertical, format

1035
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:00,320
and also got all kinds of other. Stuff i've got

1036
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:04,360
educational content. There i've got interviews over. There i'm doing

1037
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:06,599
some interviews right now with people who are like Ex

1038
00:58:06,639 --> 00:58:09,840
mormon and getting into The mormon. Lore AND i even

1039
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:12,679
got some shorts THAT i post. There SOMETIMES i have

1040
00:58:12,719 --> 00:58:16,360
a short THAT i put on Like instagram or on

1041
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:18,559
TikTok THAT i really like That i'll throw up on

1042
00:58:19,079 --> 00:58:21,239
that channel as, well so it's kind of my catch all.

1043
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:25,440
Channel then on TikTok it's deconstruction Dot, zone which is

1044
00:58:25,679 --> 00:58:28,199
kind of WHERE i got my. START i have started

1045
00:58:28,199 --> 00:58:30,679
A facebook and An instagram for people who don't do

1046
00:58:31,519 --> 00:58:34,400
YouTube and. TikTok you can find me at basically the

1047
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:38,280
same handles at Deconstruction, zone AND i do have a link.

1048
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:40,480
Tree if you go to my YouTube page or my TikTok,

1049
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:42,840
Page i'll have a link. Tree it's all my. Links

1050
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:46,039
you can find me in whatever social media you're interested.

1051
00:58:46,039 --> 00:58:49,519
Speaker 2: In i'll throw the link tree in the description box

1052
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:55,039
for ease. Debates it's. Funny this is just an ASSIGN

1053
00:58:55,639 --> 00:58:59,800
i had an email from somebody In Kent hoven's camp

1054
00:59:00,079 --> 00:59:03,480
otherwise known as inmates zero six four or five threeho one,

1055
00:59:03,679 --> 00:59:08,639
seven and they Said kenthoven is interested in having you

1056
00:59:09,079 --> 00:59:12,719
Debate god on his. Channel AND i looked at the

1057
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:15,920
email AND i clicked, reply AND i, said thank you

1058
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:19,159
so much for the. INVITATION i would rather put a

1059
00:59:19,239 --> 00:59:24,719
campfire out with my face yours In Christ Seth, andrews

1060
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:28,280
AND i clicked send AND i have not heard. Back so,

1061
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:32,039
anyway the apologist who wanted to Debate, god you. Know

1062
00:59:32,159 --> 00:59:35,480
sometimes it's, fun sometimes it's. Not i'm sure you've seen.

1063
00:59:35,559 --> 00:59:39,800
Both justin thank you so much for a compelling. Conversation

1064
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:42,159
we got to do this, again So i'll have my

1065
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:44,440
people call your people or vice.

1066
00:59:44,519 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 3: Versa, okay, well thanks for having. ME i really appreciate

1067
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:51,440
it and looking forward to more. Conversations let's do.

1068
00:59:51,519 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 1: It Follow The Thanking atheist On facebook And twitter for

1069
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:59,000
a complete archive of podcasts and, videos products like muggs

1070
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:02,159
and t shirts featuring The Thinking atheist, logo links to

1071
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:06,119
atheist pages and, resources and details on upcoming free thought

1072
01:00:06,159 --> 01:00:11,039
events and. Conventions log onto our, Website The thinkingatheist dot.

1073
01:00:11,079 --> 01:00:13,719
Com