Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.
Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas.
Speaker 3: I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am
now trying to use my experience as the brother of
a murder victim to help other victims of violent crime.
I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders,
and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders
Facebook group together with Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 4: My name is Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 5: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,
as well as the social media manager and co administrator
for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
in crime, Bill Thomas.
Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas.
Speaker 4: We're back for part two of our discussion on Brian
Coberger's plea deal, in which he admits to the murder
of the four Idaho College students, Madison Mogan, Ethan Chapin,
Nanna kernadl And and Cammus. We just had part one
of our discussion into this.
Speaker 3: I'm still surprised that this came at such a late date,
I understand the strong feelings on all sides. One thing
continued to be a bit disturbed by are people on
social media that behave as if they have a right
to a certain amount of information, that somehow they are
owed answers in the Idaho case and others like it.
I find that kind of baffling, because we've all been
reminded in sometimes not very nice way, that prosecutors don't
work for any individual, and they certainly don't work for
the families. They may sometimes try to present it that way,
but you'll notice when a trial begins, they say, I'm
Jane Doe or Joe Smith for the United States of
America if it's a federal case, or for the state
of Idaho, or whoever is doing the prosecution. It's amazing
how people will get so wrapped up in these cases
and they start to behave like they deserve answers, They
want answers, they want justice. I'm always chagrined when I
see people saying.
Speaker 2: Oh, shoot the guy myself, that sort of thing.
Speaker 3: Can we all just calm down here, Even the families,
and I would include the Colonial Park gram murders families
in this mix. We don't feel like we are given
much of a voice in these cases. One of the
things I'm hopeful about is the victim's impact statements, which
hopefully will be allowed to be read and discussed at
the upcoming sentencing hearing July twenty third.
Speaker 4: That is definitely something that is going to be very emotional.
I know that, but I think that is going to
be very interesting for everyone involved. I kind of want
to continue on a thread of what you just said
here for a second. I think that with the rise
of online sleuths and online sleuthing and Facebook groups about
certain cases and things like that, big cases like the
Idaho four case become public property where everyone feels like
they have a state in it, and everyone feels like
they have a responsibility to help bring down the killers
by doing their own citizens sleuthing, or they have a
responsibility to somehow make their own mark on the case
by making it theirs. One of the really interesting things
that came up in one of the two books that
were written about the case, While Idaho Slept by Jay
Rubin Appleman, he talks about the number of social media
influencers and true crime TikTokers and various other people who
showed up on campus and outside of eleven twenty two
King Road and were reporting essentially from the scene because
it would help their view and it would raise their
social media profile and would help their clicks and their downloads.
And I can't imagine what it would have been like
for the Colonial Parkway murders families and victims if this
sort of technology and this sort of ownership of cases
had been around when this case started.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, I don't find it annoying enough already.
Speaker 4: It's really interesting, but it's also got to be frustrating.
I would imagine to be a family member and feel
like my grief can't be private because everybody else wants
me to speak about it or be on a podcast
about it or whatever else. It's I think that we're
dealing with the intersection of true crime and entertainment. It
makes me feel just a little bit squiky sometimes when
I look at the fact that, hey, they live streamed
this plea hearing today.
Speaker 3: This same time, millions of people across the country and
around the world are very interested in the Idaho case.
That's a relatively small town, Moscow, Idaho, twenty five thousand.
Speaker 2: People for that case.
Speaker 3: This allowed them to convey information and a status report
of what's happening with this plea. Those people that are
very invested in this case were able to at least
listen in. It isn't all that many of us are
in Moscow, Idaho. This technology has benefit. The part I
find curious is the level of investment and dare I
say even a sense of ownership of cases that I
think sometimes crosses a line. Look, the Colonial Parkway murders
are a Virginia case. I'm actually happy most days that
I don't live in Virginia.
Speaker 2: It's a beautiful place.
Speaker 3: I know that for the family's Six of the eight
victims in the Colonial Parkway murders are from Virginia, which
means that occasionally those family members probably run into somebody
somewhere who has questions for them. I guess what we
all have to do is remember that we are talking
about real people here, not fictional cases. These horrific losses
have lifelong implications and lifelong hurt for those members. I
think it was the Mogan family that was saying they
want to get on with their lives, and they, among
other family members, were not looking forward to a death
penalty trial in which would have been long and drawn
out and would have forced them if they chose to
attend to revisit the excruciating details of losing their loved ones.
Speaker 4: I think that there are a lot of facets to
navigating the world of high profile cases, whether it's Idaho
four or in its own way here the Colonial Parkway murders.
And I'm finding I think the longer that I've worked
with you, which is ten years now five on the podcast,
the more I've had to kind of figure out for
myself what is the most appropriate way to navigate this world.
To keep in mind that the victims are real people,
the families are real people, There are real griefs and
real hearts behind it, and try to use and leverage
this technology to our benefit without falling into some of
the traps that can happen when you spend hours and
hours a day on social media or when the case
starts to take over your life. Have you ever reached
a point bill where you felt like this case is
taking over every facet of your existence.
Speaker 2: Probably, I'm sure my family would say have.
Speaker 4: You ever wanted? You mentioned last episode that sometimes there
have been family members who said, I need to step
back for a little bit. Have you ever wished that
there was a point when you could step back from it?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm just a stubborn irishman that's too thick headed
to let the Colonial Parkland motors go.
Speaker 4: And then you'll notice that was a non answer, folks.
Speaker 3: And at the same time, as we've talked about on
Mindover Murder, we talk about it even in the introduction
to Mind Over Murder, which.
Speaker 2: Runs every episode. I'm not saying people have to hang on.
Speaker 3: Our every word of our introduction, but we've learned a
lot over the years from our own experience, and we
talk about trying to use that to help other people
in that way. I think there are positives as well,
But yeah, there are times when it.
Speaker 2: Feels it takes over your world.
Speaker 3: I'm sitting here in a library packed with files and
books and information about the Colonial Parkway murders in any
number of other cases, and that doesn't count the file
boxes full of three ring binders that say FBI one,
FBI two, FBI three, just goes on and on. My
big challenge is, then can I get back to finding
it when I'm looking for particular pieces of information.
Speaker 4: And for a little inside baseball here before we get
back to the Brian Coche plea hearing. Bill is a
prolific note taker and he has a three ring notebook
with him always, and it is never we never sit
down for an interview with somebody without him pulling a
notebook and scribbling and taking notes. I would love to
know how many three ring notebooks you have at this point,
full of just stuff and notes and things. There's a lot,
I would imagine. Like when we first started talking ten
years ago, I started taking notes and it finally reached
a point where it was like, I can't take notes
on all of this.
Speaker 3: This is crazy, But I won't remember so much if
I don't write it down.
Speaker 4: Oh sure, no, I got it. You talk about the
tonnage of information that comes with a thirty eight year
murder investigation, and the extent to which you have to
be involved day in and day out. It's got to
be a lot. And I really feel for the families
of these victims in the Idaho four case because they've
not only had to be there for this day in
and day out since the murders actually happened, they've had
to do it in a digital age in which every
single camera from both news stations and anybody who wants
to consider themselves an online sleuthor or true crime influencer
is aimed at their family. This has to be rough.
I really feel for them and what they've had to
go through with it.
Speaker 3: I do too. I just think it's important that you
set parameters, you set limits, and you don't have to
respond to everybody that reaches out to you. I think
sometimes we get ourselves into a place where we think
it's somehow am I being rude or am I being
a standoffish? Or it's your life and it's your loved
one who's been lost, and you have to decide what
you're going to do to help move your own life forward.
Speaker 2: And if it's helpful.
Speaker 3: For you to talk to someone, whether it's a reporter
or I hate the word influencer, well, podcast or whatever,
if that's beneficial to you you feel like that's helping
move your case forward, great, But if not, you're not
obligated to respond to every email, every text, every whatever.
Speaker 2: We laugh about this. I know a lot of people
reach out.
Speaker 3: To us, and I'm always grumbling, now, which platform with that.
Speaker 4: It's that is? I think this is something interesting and
I would actually really love to be able to talk
to some of these families and ask how they've been
navigating this because the amount of tips, some of which
are very good, in others of which are definitely a
little on the dottier side, and some of which are
just quite frankly bizarre that we get on like a
daily basis. I think it would blow most people's minds
if they know how much of this stuff we were
waiting through.
Speaker 3: It's true this has been exceptionally challenging, and it is
even more so now with the adventity Internet and all
of the media attention on a case life like the
Idaho four case.
Speaker 4: So let's get a little bit into the plea hearing
that happened on Wednesday, July second. I decided to live
stream this because as a teacher home for the summer,
I had the time and the inclination to do so.
I turn on the live stream, and you should also
be able to watch the sentencing on July twenty third
via live stream. The judge himself acknowledged the massive media
presence both in the room and online at the start
of this, but I did decide to watch the live stream,
and then I put together this information which I've also
posted on our social media page, so that anybody who
is not a teacher on summer break who didn't have
a chance to watch the live stream could kind of
catch up just a couple of hours ago. At the
beginning of Coburger's plea hearing this afternoon, Judge Stephen Hipler
began by offering some prefatory remarks. He started by addressing
the barrage of phone calls, in email messages, and voicemails
that he and other court officials had received in the
wake of the plea from the Gonkalbaz family to call DOJ,
the court and the judge and urge them not to
take the plea deal. He said it was a huge
number of messages, absolutely overwhelming, and he said it actually
kept the court from being able to conduct the regular
business of the day because so many people were handling
phone calls and fielding emails and so forth. He did
state gently but unequivocally, it was inappropriate for the public
to make such calls because it kept other cases from
receiving equal time and effort from the court.
Speaker 3: He also said, and this is everyone should make note
of this. He also said he didn't read or listen
to any of the messages. So in this regard, I
think this was a mistake. I'm not here to criticize
the Clencalva's family or Steve Concalvis specifically, but this had
zero influence and if anything, had just tied up the
court and prevented it from doing its regular business.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was a mistake.
Speaker 3: I don't think harassing court officials or judges, clerks, people
that are just working hard and answering the phones in
the prosecutor's office. I think this is a complete waste
of time and kind of borders on harassment.
Speaker 2: I think it's not smart or productive.
Speaker 4: I think this goes back to what we were talking about,
the sense of ownership from other people. And I'm not
talking about the families. I'm talking about the people in
the general viewing public or news watching public who feel
like I should make that call because that's not right.
They shouldn't be taking this plea deal. The judge said, quote,
the court is not supposed to and this court will
never make decisions based on public opinion. I'm so glad
that he said that, because I think as true crime
intersects with part entertainment and part news. I think people
need to understand you can believe things all that you want,
but your opinion is not ultimately going to sway anything
related to the judicial process.
Speaker 3: And interestingly, the judge makes the point that the judge
doesn't decide whether a plea deal is acceptable or not acceptable.
His job is to shepherd this case through the legal
system and make sure that everything is handled according to
the letter of the law. But he doesn't decide whether
a plea deal like this moves forward or not.
Speaker 4: Also reminded too, and I think speak specifically to the
concern about the death penalty. He reminded the people in
the courtroom and the audience watching the live streams of
the event that the prosecution is the sole authority and
decide what penalty it is seeking for a crime like
it's the prosecution's job to say the death penalty is
on or off the table. And he says, even if
the course rejects this plea, we cannot force the state
to seek the death penalty. If eventually it was deciding, yeah,
we're not going to put this back on the table.
He framed it as I think we need to go
over some basic understandings about the court when he made
those remarks. But I think it is good for people
to remember this isn't based on public opinion. The judge's
role in this is not as all encompassing as I
think people think that. It is probably much to the
Sugarnas some of the judges that we know.
Speaker 3: But still I think we all look at judges as
up there in their black robes on a big high
bench and that they're in charge and they're the supreme
power in the courtroom. That may be true, but they
don't make decisions like is Lata County going to seek
the death penalty in this particular case.
Speaker 2: That's up to the prosecution.
Speaker 4: One thing that we talked about last episode was about
the timing and the short notice on the hearing, and
so Judge Hipler also took a minute to acknowledge, yes,
it's short notice, and he also apologized for it. So
he said, I understand this was short notice. I am
sorry that it was. He said, I understand that it
left many of the families a little time to get
to Idaho. He said something very interesting. He said that
he himself was unaware of the plea deal until he
learned about it on Monday. Along with the rest of
the world. He said, up until Monday, he was working
on trial prep, and he pointed out that trial prep
for something this notable was going to be a very
arduous task. He said, he was setting up the task
of vetting as many as ten thousand potential jurors to
be able to convene a jury of twelve and alternates
for the case. Think about that for a second. That's bananas.
Ten thousand people to get a jury of twelve and
then what ten alternates something like that.
Speaker 3: This is where I got frustrated with this leave for
people to call and email and contact his office.
Speaker 2: It's a complete.
Speaker 3: Waste of time and they were trying to get other
work done. So I will criticize this call out for
people to contact the court. I think that's a huge
mistake and a complete waste of time, and if anything,
I think works against the benefit of the families.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so the judge said, he said, look, we were
busy with trialprep. He said, as soon as I received
the information on the plea, I wanted to act on
it quickly so that if it fell through, I can
get back to trial prep and getting ready to interview
up to ten thousand people to be able to pull
a jury, and he was very polite about it. He
acknowledged multiple times. I apologize for this short notice here,
but we had to get this done because they were
looking at jury's selection in two weeks and then starting
the trial in August. A lot of work. So the
plea hearing proceeded as expected, no fireworks or anything like that.
Burger pleaded guilty to four accounts of first degree murder
and one count of burglary. He did not offer any
additional statements other than yes or no answers. I know
that people who were hoping that there was going to
be an allocution, that he was going to confess to
everything that does not happen until the sentence scene, or
at least that to the information I was given by
one of our legal experts. If that's what you were
looking for, you wouldn't have gotten that today. You will
get that if it's gotten at all. On July twenty third,
the prosecution presented the evidence that they would have offered
against Coburger at trial, which was very interesting. So it
was a narrative essentially very similar to the probable cause
affidavit that basically said here is all the information that
we have and would have presented. So they talked to
DNA on the knife sheath, Sell tower, data, surveillance footage,
Amazon search and purchase history. They laid out like they
did their best hits. They said, this wasn't all all
of what we had, but this is the best of
what we had. And at that point the judge said, okay.
The defense and prosecution both waived pre sentencing investigation and
they asked proceed directly to July twenty third for sentencing,
so there's no more convening until July twenty third. The
judge actually said that the week of the twenty third
was a week that the courtroom calendar had been entirely
cleared of all other cases because they wanted to do
jury selection for coburgers. Obviously, now that's no longer necessary,
so he's got a couple of days in there that
now the court has been cleared of all other cases.
So he was like, let's just do it on the
twenty third. That's when we have a clear courtroom. Nobody
else is going to be in the courthouse. The judge
and the prosecution also expressed their desire for family members
to present victim's impact statements if they so choose, and
I hope that they all do. And they set a
start time of nine am on July twenty third, so
that these statements in sentencing could be an all day process.
They said they didn't expect it to take longer than
a day, but I imagine that they'll try to monitor
Ina just as needed.
Speaker 3: One of the most satisfying parts of the Golden State
killer case for me personally was hearing these incredible victims'
impact statements, because that was a situation too where there
was a plea bargain, and it allowed the families to
have the last word in terms of expressing the depth
of their loss, how much this had impacted them, and
they were powerful and beautiful, sometimes hard to listen. I
thought they were incredibly important, and this is something that
we've seen in recent years where the step of having
victim impact statements is so important, I think, particularly for
family members and the community to hear directly from the
people that have lost loved ones.
Speaker 4: I remember watching the victim's impact statements for that, and
I especially remember watching Jane Carson Sandler tell DiAngelo that
she hoped you w in hell, and I was like,
oh girl, good for you, Good for you, And I
told her that. Once I met her, I said, I'm
so glad that you said it. And I would imagine
there has to be a certain amount of catharsis there
at being able to say it. I like the victim's
impact statement process, and I hope that the families will
all take advantage of it. It's got to be gut wrenching.
I would imagine that being able to say it to
somebody's face, there's got to be a certain amount of
relief in being able to say it.
Speaker 2: I think so too.
Speaker 3: And we know several people that have done it, and
they've talked about what a rewarding experience it was. It
was incredibly difficult, maybe the most difficult thing they'd ever done.
For those that choose that option, and they want that
opportunity to look the offender in the eye and let
them know how this has impacted, then I think it's
incredibly important. I hope it does happen. On July twenty third,
you're listening to Mind Over Murder, will be right back
after this word from our sponsors.
Speaker 2: We're back here at Mind Over Murder.
Speaker 4: If it ever comes an opportunity for that to happen
in our case. Would you be giving a victims impect statement.
I'd love to the ability to be able to say, look,
how utterly you have changed the whole entire course of
our lives as a result of your actions. That's very
powerful and I'm very much looking forward to it. I
know that I'll cry. I cried watching the GSK the
victims and pect statements. I don't think that anyone with
a heart can watch that and not cry at least
a little bit. I certainly hope that will be something
that they take full advantage of, because I think it
can only help. The judge did order that the gag
order remain in place until the sentencing, and then I
imagine after the sentencing, the floodgates are going to open.
As we'd addressed last episode, there will probably be some
families who don't ever want to talk it with the media.
That is fully their right, and I hope that people
who again feel that sort of sense of ownership over
the case or connection with the case, I hope that
they understand that it is always the right of families
to say nothing.
Speaker 3: They don't owe us, they they owe us exactly nothing,
and they should just be permitted.
Speaker 2: To live their lives in whatever way is appropriate.
Speaker 4: I had been looking at some information, peruising around to
see who had said what from the families, and in Shapin,
for anybody who doesn't know he's in Shapin, was a
triplet and his brother and sister, A surviving brother and
sister choose to speak out and be part of a
documentary that will come out later in July on Amazon Prime.
Not everybody's siblings would be up to that, and they
don't owe us that.
Speaker 3: For me, I wouldn't hesitate to speak or to write something.
I know for my surviving brothers they would not choose
to do that. Now, my older brother Richard and my
young your brother Jack are both incredibly smart, articulate, accomplished men,
but this isn't a topic they want to address in public.
I completely understand it, and they could talk circles around
me on any number of other subjects, but they wouldn't
have much of anything to say, and it would be
very difficult emotionally. It'll be difficult for me emotionally if
the opportunity ever presents itself. So I completely get the
variety of opinions within the Idaho families. We'll see what
happens in terms of going forward, who chooses to speak
publicly and who does not. You can see people certain
personalities have stepped forward and are quite outspoken and even aggressive,
and that's fine. And then there are other people that
just want to be left alone and live the rest
of their lives and come to deal with they're never
going to recover. And we've talked about this several times
on Mind over Murder. I push back against the idea
of closure, or it's just not comfortable with it.
Speaker 2: I don't believe it exists.
Speaker 3: You lose someone in the way that we've lost Kathy
and the other victims in the Colonial Parkway murders, it's
never going to be the same, not even close. So
don't talk to me about closure. There is no such
thing for me. Now for somebody else, maybe they're more
spiritual or what have you.
Speaker 2: Like we talked about your marriage may vary.
Speaker 3: I have a great deal of respect for all of
these people who've suffered these kind of losses.
Speaker 2: These next couple of.
Speaker 3: Months, it'll be interesting to see who wants to step
forward and convey their feelings and others who just want
to be quiet and private and focus on the rest
of their lives.
Speaker 4: Agreed, And I think it's important for people to extend
that courtesy not just to the Idah of four families,
but for example, to the two surviving roommates, because they
apparently have also been subject to a lot of media scrutiny,
and not just from the mainstream media, but from influencers,
from maybe some less scrupulous publications. It's so important or
the media, both mainstream and maybe more of the influencer base.
I know you hate that word, but I can't think
of anything better to use the influencer based of I
think it's just so important for people to understand that
every facet of this case affects people. Again, while I
was reading While Idaho Slept, he talks about the first
responders who arrived at that house and saw the sheer
amount of carnage that had happened to those four kids.
That is something they're never going to be able to unsee,
not their whole entire lives, the same way that you
can't unsee your sister's crime scene photographs and I can't either.
They are burned on the back of my retina. I
see them when I go to sleep. Everybody involved in
a case start to finish, no matter how integral or tangential,
deserves the same amount of respect. No one should be
prodded into telling things they're not comfortable with, Like the
surviving roommates. The Coburger family deserves just as much privacy
and respect as the families of the Idaho four victims.
I know that for some people that might be a
bit of a hot take, but they didn't ask to
be the parents and siblings of a quadruple murderer.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I saw something sass for it. I saw some
stuff on social media today that I just was so
struck by.
Speaker 2: Man. People they're insisting.
Speaker 3: The Coburger mother and father should have known, could have known,
covered it up, dad helped him escape. None of these
things are true. No, and no, the Coburgers didn't commit
this crime. Brian Coburger did. Oh and while I'm on
the topic, all.
Speaker 2: Those people now that have been.
Speaker 3: Defending Brian Coburger and insisting that it was somebody else
and he's getting a bum wrap, you can zip it
now because you know something. Coburger and his defense team
have admitted he was guilty they've admitted that he killed
those people, so you can just shut up. I've seen
enough people insisting that Brian Coburger is innocent and he's
been railroaded and that he didn't commit these crimes.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, you're wrong, You're dead wrong.
Speaker 3: And your hero, if you want to call him, that
has now publicly admitted this afternoon that he committed those crimes,
So you people can just give it a rest.
Speaker 4: Agreed one hundred percent. And the tendency that people have
to leap to he couldn't have done it. It was somebody else.
It was a conspiracy. When something doesn't go their way,
they immediately leap to conspiracy. He's being railroaded. It's a conspiracy.
I hate the word conspiracy. I hate it, yeah, because
people take it to the worst possible place every time.
But one hundred percent, I agree with you, and I
know that at some point or another, wor we want
to do a whole entire episode on serial killer groupies
and just murderers groupies in general. There was a chapter
in here, and while I don't know sleeps about the
fact that Brian Koberger suddenly started getting love letters and
fan mail in jail.
Speaker 2: Oh please, what is it with these people?
Speaker 4: I don't get it. They said. It reached a point
where people were talking about he's so handsome, he could
not have done it. They were drawing Ted Bundy comparisons. Yuck.
Speaker 2: It's just gross.
Speaker 4: Yuck.
Speaker 3: Speaking of respectful questions and perspectives, you wanted to talk
a little bit about the many comments we saw on
our social media pages from the listeners to mind over Murder.
Speaker 2: So what do they have to say?
Speaker 4: You know, we have the best listeners. I don't say
that lightly because for every live event that we do,
people show up. We really love and respect those of
you guys that show up for us because it's amazing.
Thank you to everybody who takes the time to comment
on our social media pages. And if you're not following
our social media pages but you are listening to the podcast,
please follow us. We want you to engage with us.
We want to hear from way more of you than
the money that commented on this social media post. But
I had asked last night, is the plead deal for
Brian Coberger the best form of justice for the families?
And we invited you to let us know your thoughts
and you did and they were all smart and all interesting.
So I want to go ahead and just list a
couple of people's responses, shout them out for class participation.
I'm a teacher. I love good participation. I want to
give these so that people who may not have had
a chance to look at these can hear some of
the responses. So I'm actually going to start with my
friend Chris, who is he is a trial attorney, so
he started with this trial attorney here, albeit civil not criminal.
Number one. Every time you go to trial, it's a gamble.
No matter how strong the evidence looks. From a defense perspective,
you only need to turn one juror bram mistrial. Number two.
Had the state won and solve the death penalty, years
of protracted and expensive appeals would have ensued. Number three,
life without parole is no joke, even if some family
members may think so. Number four. This may be hard
to hear, but at the end of the day, the
prosecution's client is the state, not the family members. It
is in the state's best interest to have Coburger locked
up forever while saving the time, expense, uncertainty, and appeals
process of a trial. Bravo Chris, thank you.
Speaker 3: And very thoughtful analysis from an attorney.
Speaker 4: Noah, I agree. We actually had a couple of people
who are attorneys who weighed in on this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I thought their responses were very thought provoking.
Speaker 4: The next person is from Tammy, who disagrees. She said
the family should have been the destciders here and if
no agreement, then move ahead with the trial.
Speaker 3: I totally get where Tammy's coming from, although at the
end of the day, the prosecution works for the state,
not for the families, as I'm constantly reminded in our case.
Speaker 4: Kurt says, I truly hope this plea bargain requires Coburger
to confess openly in court and to tell the court
and families why he did these horrific crimes.
Speaker 3: Hell to DS, I felt exactly the same way and
still do. And you saw how that two of the
dads weighed in. They really want Coberger to explain and allocute,
as they say, in a court of law, how this
happened and the why. I'm not saying any of this
is going to be acceptable, but I think it would
be important for all of us to hear, especially the families.
Speaker 4: Lulu asked, just curious, but our families permitted to address
him in court if there is a plea deal, whether
the death penalty or life behind bars. It seems the
families should be given the option to make a statement
if they choose to, and our understanding is yes, they
are allowed to make victims impact statements as part of
the sentencing. Jamie says, at least two of the four
families that I've seen so far don't believe this was
the best form of justice for them and have strongly
spoken out against the plea deal. Being emotionally detached from
the situation, I can see that the family was spared
a lengthy trial and won't have to go through endless appeals.
A sick individual, well, it's behind bars and we'll stay
there where he belongs, and I'm good with that. But
with two families being passionately outspoken, it's obvious there was
something lacking in the process. At some point, there was
not sufficient communication about what was happening, and that is
a problem. I think again, Hell of the yes, what
do you think?
Speaker 2: Bill? Totally agree that needs to be addressed.
Speaker 3: Because I don't know how they can be talking with
the Idahell families on Friday and then come out with
a letter on Sunday saying, look, we have a plea agreement.
The judge himself acknowledged that many of those families aren't
from Idaho and they had to get there in time
for the hearing. I think this could have been worked
out better, and clearly there were communication problems between the
prosecutor's office and the families. I don't know if the
prosecutors didn't want to hear it in terms of pushback
from at least two of the families, or the whole
thing came together over the weekend. It sounds like this
could have been handled better in terms of the communication,
particularly with the families.
Speaker 4: Jessica follows up with that. She says, I read that
some of the families feel like they weren't informed properly,
and it felt like they as victims were not treated
properly by the prosecution. Why is this happening to prosecutors
not feel an obligation to victims to treat them with respect.
Speaker 3: I don't know the answer, but it sure is a
good question, because why weren't the families properly informed? I
don't know if there was anything magic about announcing this
Lee agreement on Monday. I think the judge could have
said no statements shall be made publicly until after the
families are informed and given sufficient notice to get here
to Idaho for the hearings. But I think it's an
excellent question. I don't know the answer. It's got to
be handled better than it was this time.
Speaker 4: Elizabeth Wayhs in civil attorney here. While I understand why
the prosecution did what they did, many prosecutors want to
avoid a trial at all costs. It seems like they
had a solid case, but you never know. The bigger
issue is how they treated the vocal families who are
not in favor of a plea deal. Additionally, there is
no requirement that he say anything other than he's guilty
and understands the plea and what it means. Hopefully the
families start to heal. But I've never been in their positions,
so I cannot fault them for feeling a bit betrayed
by the system.
Speaker 2: I totally agree.
Speaker 3: I'm hoping that we will hear the allocution at the
sentencing on July twenty third. That's what our experts are
telling us, so fingers crossed that they're right.
Speaker 4: Nancy says in the aspect that the families will avoid
years more of appeals and than possibly parole hearings. It
was the best for justice, know in the sense that
a court trial adds to the sense of justice being
served hopefully and learning details which may answer questions, perhaps
even watching him squirm. I think the suddenness of this
creates a bit of a shock of now we have
to absorb that after years of waiting, it's over in
nearly a heartbeat. Also, his life is spared when their
family members were not. No justice in that. I find
it another cowardly act on behalf of.
Speaker 2: I totally get it, Judy says.
Speaker 4: In the long run, this is absolutely what's best all
the way around for the families to get it over with,
where they have no more court dates where because he
can't appeal, and they won't be waiting wondering when in
the next twenty five years still carry out the death penalty.
It's good for the taxpayers because, contrary to the belief
of most, it does not cost more to feed and
house an inmate for the remainder of their life than
the cost of a year's worth of appeals.
Speaker 3: I would have to agree, and if I'm not mistaken,
Coburger's around thirty years old. Yeah, if he maintains his
good health, he could be in jail for fifty years.
So when you mentioned that the other death row inmate
in Idaho had been awaiting execution for more than forty years,
you can see how either way death row inmate or
life without parole, it's going to be a protracted process
one way or another.
Speaker 4: Laura adds to that, she says, the reality is, no
matter one's views on capital punishment, the death penalty process
is excruciatingly long in come implicated, and that means the
families of victims are subject to years of appeals, in
court appearances and so on. The guilty police stops that,
especially since he agrees to not appealing the sentence.
Speaker 3: And I think it was one of the fathers that
was saying that as well. Yeah, Ben Mogen said that
they just wanted to put this behind them, and that
the Mogans didn't want to be waiting for years, which
would have happened if this had been a death penalty case.
As I said, it's not like Coburger's found guilty and
they take him out behind the barn and shoot him immediately.
At the end, of the hearing. It doesn't work that way.
It is such a protracted, horrible process.
Speaker 4: Two more people who wait in Lindsey Hi Lindsay the
family members who were advocating for the death penalty via
firing squad likely would have found that didn't bring any
greater sense of justice. In the end, trials can go wrong.
Guilty people go free all the time. He's locked up indefinitely.
That is the best outcome here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've got three words for you, OJ Simpson, the
guy walked. He was only found guilty in a civil
trial and should have been a slam dunk case. I'm
pretty convinced that OJ Simpson killed his wife and Ron Goldman,
and there's not much way around that. You may disagree
with me, but I think they had the evidence. But yet,
all it takes is one.
Speaker 4: Juror and finally we're going to give Debbie the last
word here. The state took the easy way out. I
think the families deserve a trial if they won't one.
I agree they got a guilty plead, but he'll have
a life commissary, visitors, a chance to further his education,
free medical dental perks for good behavior. What do the
families get not only did they lose their children in
a horrible, terrible way, but they will know he will
be spread the death penalty. The state of Idaho has
failed the families. I hope he suffers every day. Yeah,
we hope so too.
Speaker 3: Can't say I disagree, but this is how it's gone down.
I think we should all find ways to move forward.
Speaker 4: It has been quite a day here discussing the Coworker
plea deal bill. Any final thoughts on.
Speaker 3: This just a reminder of for myself and everybody. Look,
you can see passions are running high. There's a lot
of strong opinion about this case just because someone looks
at something one way. Look what we're seeing with the
families here. Two of the families are okay.
Speaker 2: With the plea arrangement.
Speaker 3: Two of the families are desperately unhappy that's going to happen.
It's just important to remember that there are people of
goodwill on both sides of this argument.
Speaker 2: I am perfectly.
Speaker 3: Fine to see Coburger spend the rest of his life
in jail.
Speaker 2: That was how this case worked out.
Speaker 3: Even if I had been rooting for him to die
as a result of the death penalty, I probably would
have been waiting for years, maybe even decades. So if anything,
we know what's happened. We know that Coburger has pled guilty,
no chance of appeal.
Speaker 2: He can go in jail for the rest of his life.
Speaker 4: Agreed. There are currently two books out on the Idaho
four case, so if anybody wants to add yet more
to their reading list, those are While Idaho Slept, The
Hunt for Answers and the Murders of Four College Students
by Jay Rubin Appleman. I really liked it, just finished
it earlier today, highly recommend it. I have not read
this one yet, but now, of course I'm going to look.
I'm gonna get off here and start it when the
night comes. Following a Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders
by Howard Blum, I think I want to end by
making sure that we remember the four victims in this case,
because ultimately that is what this comes down to. Their
names were Xana, Carnodle, Kayleegankalves, Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogen. There
has been some justice for the four of them with
the Coburger guilty plea, and I think that's the best
we can hope for right now.
Speaker 2: Well, said that is going to do it.
Speaker 4: For this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so
much for listening. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
Another Dog Productions.
Speaker 3: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.