1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. 3 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:11,679 Speaker 3: I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,439 now trying to use my experience as the brother of 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,399 a murder victim to help other victims of violent crime. 6 00:00:17,679 --> 00:00:20,719 I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, 7 00:00:20,879 --> 00:00:23,600 and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders 8 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:25,519 Facebook group together with Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 4: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 5: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:40,439 --> 00:00:43,079 Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly. 15 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas. 16 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 4: We're back for part two of our discussion on Brian 17 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:51,640 Coberger's plea deal, in which he admits to the murder 18 00:00:51,759 --> 00:00:57,399 of the four Idaho College students, Madison Mogan, Ethan Chapin, 19 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:03,079 Nanna kernadl And and Cammus. We just had part one 20 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:05,359 of our discussion into this. 21 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 3: I'm still surprised that this came at such a late date, 22 00:01:10,439 --> 00:01:15,480 I understand the strong feelings on all sides. One thing 23 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,840 continued to be a bit disturbed by are people on 24 00:01:18,879 --> 00:01:23,400 social media that behave as if they have a right 25 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:28,599 to a certain amount of information, that somehow they are 26 00:01:28,799 --> 00:01:33,439 owed answers in the Idaho case and others like it. 27 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,879 I find that kind of baffling, because we've all been 28 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:42,439 reminded in sometimes not very nice way, that prosecutors don't 29 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:47,120 work for any individual, and they certainly don't work for 30 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,879 the families. They may sometimes try to present it that way, 31 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,280 but you'll notice when a trial begins, they say, I'm 32 00:01:54,519 --> 00:01:57,799 Jane Doe or Joe Smith for the United States of 33 00:01:57,879 --> 00:02:00,439 America if it's a federal case, or for the state 34 00:02:00,439 --> 00:02:04,200 of Idaho, or whoever is doing the prosecution. It's amazing 35 00:02:04,239 --> 00:02:06,599 how people will get so wrapped up in these cases 36 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,080 and they start to behave like they deserve answers, They 37 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:14,639 want answers, they want justice. I'm always chagrined when I 38 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:15,879 see people saying. 39 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 2: Oh, shoot the guy myself, that sort of thing. 40 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 3: Can we all just calm down here, Even the families, 41 00:02:22,199 --> 00:02:24,919 and I would include the Colonial Park gram murders families 42 00:02:25,039 --> 00:02:28,240 in this mix. We don't feel like we are given 43 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,479 much of a voice in these cases. One of the 44 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:36,439 things I'm hopeful about is the victim's impact statements, which 45 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,000 hopefully will be allowed to be read and discussed at 46 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,400 the upcoming sentencing hearing July twenty third. 47 00:02:44,199 --> 00:02:47,319 Speaker 4: That is definitely something that is going to be very emotional. 48 00:02:47,439 --> 00:02:49,639 I know that, but I think that is going to 49 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,879 be very interesting for everyone involved. I kind of want 50 00:02:53,879 --> 00:02:55,840 to continue on a thread of what you just said 51 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,840 here for a second. I think that with the rise 52 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:05,199 of online sleuths and online sleuthing and Facebook groups about 53 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,919 certain cases and things like that, big cases like the 54 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:14,319 Idaho four case become public property where everyone feels like 55 00:03:14,439 --> 00:03:19,240 they have a state in it, and everyone feels like 56 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:24,400 they have a responsibility to help bring down the killers 57 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:28,800 by doing their own citizens sleuthing, or they have a 58 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:34,120 responsibility to somehow make their own mark on the case 59 00:03:34,479 --> 00:03:38,280 by making it theirs. One of the really interesting things 60 00:03:38,319 --> 00:03:41,199 that came up in one of the two books that 61 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:44,560 were written about the case, While Idaho Slept by Jay 62 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:49,000 Rubin Appleman, he talks about the number of social media 63 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,919 influencers and true crime TikTokers and various other people who 64 00:03:54,039 --> 00:03:58,639 showed up on campus and outside of eleven twenty two 65 00:03:58,759 --> 00:04:03,680 King Road and were reporting essentially from the scene because 66 00:04:03,719 --> 00:04:06,360 it would help their view and it would raise their 67 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,319 social media profile and would help their clicks and their downloads. 68 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,599 And I can't imagine what it would have been like 69 00:04:13,759 --> 00:04:18,600 for the Colonial Parkway murders families and victims if this 70 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,839 sort of technology and this sort of ownership of cases 71 00:04:23,079 --> 00:04:25,519 had been around when this case started. 72 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, I don't find it annoying enough already. 73 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 4: It's really interesting, but it's also got to be frustrating. 74 00:04:34,199 --> 00:04:37,079 I would imagine to be a family member and feel 75 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:41,079 like my grief can't be private because everybody else wants 76 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,639 me to speak about it or be on a podcast 77 00:04:43,639 --> 00:04:46,399 about it or whatever else. It's I think that we're 78 00:04:46,439 --> 00:04:50,680 dealing with the intersection of true crime and entertainment. It 79 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,680 makes me feel just a little bit squiky sometimes when 80 00:04:54,879 --> 00:04:57,879 I look at the fact that, hey, they live streamed 81 00:04:57,959 --> 00:04:59,639 this plea hearing today. 82 00:04:59,759 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 3: This same time, millions of people across the country and 83 00:05:02,759 --> 00:05:05,279 around the world are very interested in the Idaho case. 84 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:10,120 That's a relatively small town, Moscow, Idaho, twenty five thousand. 85 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,079 Speaker 2: People for that case. 86 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 3: This allowed them to convey information and a status report 87 00:05:17,199 --> 00:05:20,399 of what's happening with this plea. Those people that are 88 00:05:20,519 --> 00:05:23,519 very invested in this case were able to at least 89 00:05:23,759 --> 00:05:26,439 listen in. It isn't all that many of us are 90 00:05:26,439 --> 00:05:31,920 in Moscow, Idaho. This technology has benefit. The part I 91 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:36,480 find curious is the level of investment and dare I 92 00:05:36,519 --> 00:05:40,160 say even a sense of ownership of cases that I 93 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:45,480 think sometimes crosses a line. Look, the Colonial Parkway murders 94 00:05:45,519 --> 00:05:49,079 are a Virginia case. I'm actually happy most days that 95 00:05:49,199 --> 00:05:50,600 I don't live in Virginia. 96 00:05:50,639 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 2: It's a beautiful place. 97 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 3: I know that for the family's Six of the eight 98 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,399 victims in the Colonial Parkway murders are from Virginia, which 99 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:04,120 means that occasionally those family members probably run into somebody 100 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,519 somewhere who has questions for them. I guess what we 101 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,439 all have to do is remember that we are talking 102 00:06:10,439 --> 00:06:15,240 about real people here, not fictional cases. These horrific losses 103 00:06:15,639 --> 00:06:19,879 have lifelong implications and lifelong hurt for those members. I 104 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:21,959 think it was the Mogan family that was saying they 105 00:06:22,079 --> 00:06:24,839 want to get on with their lives, and they, among 106 00:06:24,879 --> 00:06:28,279 other family members, were not looking forward to a death 107 00:06:28,319 --> 00:06:31,439 penalty trial in which would have been long and drawn 108 00:06:31,519 --> 00:06:35,040 out and would have forced them if they chose to 109 00:06:35,079 --> 00:06:40,279 attend to revisit the excruciating details of losing their loved ones. 110 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 4: I think that there are a lot of facets to 111 00:06:43,519 --> 00:06:49,040 navigating the world of high profile cases, whether it's Idaho 112 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:53,319 four or in its own way here the Colonial Parkway murders. 113 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:57,079 And I'm finding I think the longer that I've worked 114 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,920 with you, which is ten years now five on the podcast, 115 00:07:00,319 --> 00:07:02,519 the more I've had to kind of figure out for 116 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:06,800 myself what is the most appropriate way to navigate this world. 117 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,319 To keep in mind that the victims are real people, 118 00:07:10,639 --> 00:07:13,240 the families are real people, There are real griefs and 119 00:07:13,319 --> 00:07:17,040 real hearts behind it, and try to use and leverage 120 00:07:17,079 --> 00:07:20,639 this technology to our benefit without falling into some of 121 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,319 the traps that can happen when you spend hours and 122 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,800 hours a day on social media or when the case 123 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,560 starts to take over your life. Have you ever reached 124 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,600 a point bill where you felt like this case is 125 00:07:34,639 --> 00:07:36,759 taking over every facet of your existence. 126 00:07:37,319 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 2: Probably, I'm sure my family would say have. 127 00:07:42,079 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 4: You ever wanted? You mentioned last episode that sometimes there 128 00:07:45,439 --> 00:07:48,079 have been family members who said, I need to step 129 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,759 back for a little bit. Have you ever wished that 130 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:52,839 there was a point when you could step back from it? 131 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm just a stubborn irishman that's too thick headed 132 00:07:56,639 --> 00:07:58,759 to let the Colonial Parkland motors go. 133 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 4: And then you'll notice that was a non answer, folks. 134 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,319 Speaker 3: And at the same time, as we've talked about on 135 00:08:05,399 --> 00:08:08,120 Mindover Murder, we talk about it even in the introduction 136 00:08:08,399 --> 00:08:09,920 to Mind Over Murder, which. 137 00:08:09,759 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 2: Runs every episode. I'm not saying people have to hang on. 138 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,839 Speaker 3: Our every word of our introduction, but we've learned a 139 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:18,839 lot over the years from our own experience, and we 140 00:08:19,319 --> 00:08:22,120 talk about trying to use that to help other people 141 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,600 in that way. I think there are positives as well, 142 00:08:25,879 --> 00:08:27,439 But yeah, there are times when it. 143 00:08:27,399 --> 00:08:29,519 Speaker 2: Feels it takes over your world. 144 00:08:29,839 --> 00:08:34,039 Speaker 3: I'm sitting here in a library packed with files and 145 00:08:34,159 --> 00:08:37,600 books and information about the Colonial Parkway murders in any 146 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,039 number of other cases, and that doesn't count the file 147 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:45,559 boxes full of three ring binders that say FBI one, 148 00:08:45,799 --> 00:08:49,200 FBI two, FBI three, just goes on and on. My 149 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:53,000 big challenge is, then can I get back to finding 150 00:08:53,039 --> 00:08:56,240 it when I'm looking for particular pieces of information. 151 00:08:56,159 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 4: And for a little inside baseball here before we get 152 00:08:58,879 --> 00:09:02,120 back to the Brian Coche plea hearing. Bill is a 153 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:07,679 prolific note taker and he has a three ring notebook 154 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:12,200 with him always, and it is never we never sit 155 00:09:12,279 --> 00:09:15,440 down for an interview with somebody without him pulling a 156 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,279 notebook and scribbling and taking notes. I would love to 157 00:09:18,399 --> 00:09:21,600 know how many three ring notebooks you have at this point, 158 00:09:22,039 --> 00:09:26,080 full of just stuff and notes and things. There's a lot, 159 00:09:27,039 --> 00:09:30,200 I would imagine. Like when we first started talking ten 160 00:09:30,279 --> 00:09:33,679 years ago, I started taking notes and it finally reached 161 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:35,559 a point where it was like, I can't take notes 162 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:36,120 on all of this. 163 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 3: This is crazy, But I won't remember so much if 164 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:40,720 I don't write it down. 165 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 4: Oh sure, no, I got it. You talk about the 166 00:09:44,159 --> 00:09:47,679 tonnage of information that comes with a thirty eight year 167 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,399 murder investigation, and the extent to which you have to 168 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,200 be involved day in and day out. It's got to 169 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,639 be a lot. And I really feel for the families 170 00:09:57,759 --> 00:10:01,200 of these victims in the Idaho four case because they've 171 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,600 not only had to be there for this day in 172 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:07,039 and day out since the murders actually happened, they've had 173 00:10:07,039 --> 00:10:09,159 to do it in a digital age in which every 174 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:13,799 single camera from both news stations and anybody who wants 175 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,279 to consider themselves an online sleuthor or true crime influencer 176 00:10:17,639 --> 00:10:20,399 is aimed at their family. This has to be rough. 177 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:22,840 I really feel for them and what they've had to 178 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:23,360 go through with it. 179 00:10:23,759 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 3: I do too. I just think it's important that you 180 00:10:26,759 --> 00:10:30,840 set parameters, you set limits, and you don't have to 181 00:10:30,919 --> 00:10:34,279 respond to everybody that reaches out to you. I think 182 00:10:34,279 --> 00:10:37,399 sometimes we get ourselves into a place where we think 183 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,240 it's somehow am I being rude or am I being 184 00:10:40,279 --> 00:10:44,799 a standoffish? Or it's your life and it's your loved 185 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,480 one who's been lost, and you have to decide what 186 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,240 you're going to do to help move your own life forward. 187 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:53,799 Speaker 2: And if it's helpful. 188 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 3: For you to talk to someone, whether it's a reporter 189 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:01,159 or I hate the word influencer, well, podcast or whatever, 190 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,639 if that's beneficial to you you feel like that's helping 191 00:11:04,879 --> 00:11:08,279 move your case forward, great, But if not, you're not 192 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:13,080 obligated to respond to every email, every text, every whatever. 193 00:11:13,879 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 2: We laugh about this. I know a lot of people 194 00:11:16,279 --> 00:11:16,919 reach out. 195 00:11:16,759 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 3: To us, and I'm always grumbling, now, which platform with that. 196 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 4: It's that is? I think this is something interesting and 197 00:11:24,919 --> 00:11:27,240 I would actually really love to be able to talk 198 00:11:27,279 --> 00:11:29,320 to some of these families and ask how they've been 199 00:11:29,399 --> 00:11:33,759 navigating this because the amount of tips, some of which 200 00:11:33,799 --> 00:11:37,360 are very good, in others of which are definitely a 201 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,759 little on the dottier side, and some of which are 202 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,480 just quite frankly bizarre that we get on like a 203 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:46,879 daily basis. I think it would blow most people's minds 204 00:11:46,879 --> 00:11:48,960 if they know how much of this stuff we were 205 00:11:49,039 --> 00:11:49,879 waiting through. 206 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 3: It's true this has been exceptionally challenging, and it is 207 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,960 even more so now with the adventity Internet and all 208 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,279 of the media attention on a case life like the 209 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:01,279 Idaho four case. 210 00:12:01,639 --> 00:12:04,799 Speaker 4: So let's get a little bit into the plea hearing 211 00:12:04,879 --> 00:12:09,360 that happened on Wednesday, July second. I decided to live 212 00:12:09,399 --> 00:12:12,480 stream this because as a teacher home for the summer, 213 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,480 I had the time and the inclination to do so. 214 00:12:15,639 --> 00:12:18,679 I turn on the live stream, and you should also 215 00:12:18,759 --> 00:12:23,000 be able to watch the sentencing on July twenty third 216 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:28,480 via live stream. The judge himself acknowledged the massive media 217 00:12:28,519 --> 00:12:31,720 presence both in the room and online at the start 218 00:12:31,759 --> 00:12:34,039 of this, but I did decide to watch the live stream, 219 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,879 and then I put together this information which I've also 220 00:12:36,919 --> 00:12:40,480 posted on our social media page, so that anybody who 221 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:42,679 is not a teacher on summer break who didn't have 222 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:44,600 a chance to watch the live stream could kind of 223 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,080 catch up just a couple of hours ago. At the 224 00:12:47,159 --> 00:12:50,759 beginning of Coburger's plea hearing this afternoon, Judge Stephen Hipler 225 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:56,720 began by offering some prefatory remarks. He started by addressing 226 00:12:57,159 --> 00:13:01,919 the barrage of phone calls, in email messages, and voicemails 227 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,200 that he and other court officials had received in the 228 00:13:05,759 --> 00:13:10,240 wake of the plea from the Gonkalbaz family to call DOJ, 229 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,080 the court and the judge and urge them not to 230 00:13:14,159 --> 00:13:18,360 take the plea deal. He said it was a huge 231 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,559 number of messages, absolutely overwhelming, and he said it actually 232 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,879 kept the court from being able to conduct the regular 233 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,840 business of the day because so many people were handling 234 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,919 phone calls and fielding emails and so forth. He did 235 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:38,039 state gently but unequivocally, it was inappropriate for the public 236 00:13:38,159 --> 00:13:41,720 to make such calls because it kept other cases from 237 00:13:41,759 --> 00:13:44,600 receiving equal time and effort from the court. 238 00:13:44,759 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 3: He also said, and this is everyone should make note 239 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,840 of this. He also said he didn't read or listen 240 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:56,080 to any of the messages. So in this regard, I 241 00:13:56,159 --> 00:13:59,600 think this was a mistake. I'm not here to criticize 242 00:13:59,799 --> 00:14:05,039 the Clencalva's family or Steve Concalvis specifically, but this had 243 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,399 zero influence and if anything, had just tied up the 244 00:14:08,399 --> 00:14:11,440 court and prevented it from doing its regular business. 245 00:14:11,879 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was a mistake. 246 00:14:13,799 --> 00:14:19,279 Speaker 3: I don't think harassing court officials or judges, clerks, people 247 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:23,039 that are just working hard and answering the phones in 248 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,799 the prosecutor's office. I think this is a complete waste 249 00:14:25,799 --> 00:14:28,759 of time and kind of borders on harassment. 250 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 2: I think it's not smart or productive. 251 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 4: I think this goes back to what we were talking about, 252 00:14:35,279 --> 00:14:38,440 the sense of ownership from other people. And I'm not 253 00:14:38,519 --> 00:14:41,759 talking about the families. I'm talking about the people in 254 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:46,559 the general viewing public or news watching public who feel 255 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,720 like I should make that call because that's not right. 256 00:14:49,879 --> 00:14:53,440 They shouldn't be taking this plea deal. The judge said, quote, 257 00:14:53,519 --> 00:14:57,279 the court is not supposed to and this court will 258 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:02,399 never make decisions based on public opinion. I'm so glad 259 00:15:02,519 --> 00:15:05,559 that he said that, because I think as true crime 260 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:10,679 intersects with part entertainment and part news. I think people 261 00:15:10,759 --> 00:15:14,840 need to understand you can believe things all that you want, 262 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:19,639 but your opinion is not ultimately going to sway anything 263 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:21,639 related to the judicial process. 264 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 3: And interestingly, the judge makes the point that the judge 265 00:15:26,039 --> 00:15:31,440 doesn't decide whether a plea deal is acceptable or not acceptable. 266 00:15:31,639 --> 00:15:35,279 His job is to shepherd this case through the legal 267 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,600 system and make sure that everything is handled according to 268 00:15:39,679 --> 00:15:43,039 the letter of the law. But he doesn't decide whether 269 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,799 a plea deal like this moves forward or not. 270 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 4: Also reminded too, and I think speak specifically to the 271 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:54,039 concern about the death penalty. He reminded the people in 272 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,600 the courtroom and the audience watching the live streams of 273 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,679 the event that the prosecution is the sole authority and 274 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,799 decide what penalty it is seeking for a crime like 275 00:16:02,879 --> 00:16:05,759 it's the prosecution's job to say the death penalty is 276 00:16:05,799 --> 00:16:08,759 on or off the table. And he says, even if 277 00:16:08,799 --> 00:16:11,799 the course rejects this plea, we cannot force the state 278 00:16:11,879 --> 00:16:14,879 to seek the death penalty. If eventually it was deciding, yeah, 279 00:16:14,919 --> 00:16:16,279 we're not going to put this back on the table. 280 00:16:16,559 --> 00:16:19,080 He framed it as I think we need to go 281 00:16:19,159 --> 00:16:22,399 over some basic understandings about the court when he made 282 00:16:22,399 --> 00:16:25,480 those remarks. But I think it is good for people 283 00:16:25,559 --> 00:16:29,639 to remember this isn't based on public opinion. The judge's 284 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:34,559 role in this is not as all encompassing as I 285 00:16:34,559 --> 00:16:37,639 think people think that. It is probably much to the 286 00:16:37,639 --> 00:16:39,159 Sugarnas some of the judges that we know. 287 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 3: But still I think we all look at judges as 288 00:16:42,399 --> 00:16:44,960 up there in their black robes on a big high 289 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,720 bench and that they're in charge and they're the supreme 290 00:16:47,919 --> 00:16:50,919 power in the courtroom. That may be true, but they 291 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:55,120 don't make decisions like is Lata County going to seek 292 00:16:55,159 --> 00:16:58,200 the death penalty in this particular case. 293 00:16:58,480 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 2: That's up to the prosecution. 294 00:17:00,279 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 4: One thing that we talked about last episode was about 295 00:17:02,519 --> 00:17:04,720 the timing and the short notice on the hearing, and 296 00:17:04,759 --> 00:17:08,400 so Judge Hipler also took a minute to acknowledge, yes, 297 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,319 it's short notice, and he also apologized for it. So 298 00:17:11,519 --> 00:17:14,200 he said, I understand this was short notice. I am 299 00:17:14,279 --> 00:17:16,839 sorry that it was. He said, I understand that it 300 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:18,880 left many of the families a little time to get 301 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,000 to Idaho. He said something very interesting. He said that 302 00:17:22,079 --> 00:17:26,079 he himself was unaware of the plea deal until he 303 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,160 learned about it on Monday. Along with the rest of 304 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,839 the world. He said, up until Monday, he was working 305 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,160 on trial prep, and he pointed out that trial prep 306 00:17:36,319 --> 00:17:39,519 for something this notable was going to be a very 307 00:17:39,599 --> 00:17:42,079 arduous task. He said, he was setting up the task 308 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:46,279 of vetting as many as ten thousand potential jurors to 309 00:17:46,319 --> 00:17:49,440 be able to convene a jury of twelve and alternates 310 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:53,079 for the case. Think about that for a second. That's bananas. 311 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,480 Ten thousand people to get a jury of twelve and 312 00:17:56,519 --> 00:17:58,400 then what ten alternates something like that. 313 00:17:59,039 --> 00:18:02,279 Speaker 3: This is where I got frustrated with this leave for 314 00:18:02,319 --> 00:18:06,359 people to call and email and contact his office. 315 00:18:06,519 --> 00:18:07,559 Speaker 2: It's a complete. 316 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 3: Waste of time and they were trying to get other 317 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:15,000 work done. So I will criticize this call out for 318 00:18:15,279 --> 00:18:19,119 people to contact the court. I think that's a huge 319 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,880 mistake and a complete waste of time, and if anything, 320 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,200 I think works against the benefit of the families. 321 00:18:25,799 --> 00:18:28,319 Speaker 4: Yeah, so the judge said, he said, look, we were 322 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,000 busy with trialprep. He said, as soon as I received 323 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,119 the information on the plea, I wanted to act on 324 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,279 it quickly so that if it fell through, I can 325 00:18:36,279 --> 00:18:38,920 get back to trial prep and getting ready to interview 326 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,319 up to ten thousand people to be able to pull 327 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:43,839 a jury, and he was very polite about it. He 328 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,640 acknowledged multiple times. I apologize for this short notice here, 329 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,480 but we had to get this done because they were 330 00:18:50,519 --> 00:18:54,759 looking at jury's selection in two weeks and then starting 331 00:18:54,759 --> 00:18:57,720 the trial in August. A lot of work. So the 332 00:18:57,799 --> 00:19:02,079 plea hearing proceeded as expected, no fireworks or anything like that. 333 00:19:02,559 --> 00:19:06,240 Burger pleaded guilty to four accounts of first degree murder 334 00:19:06,279 --> 00:19:09,599 and one count of burglary. He did not offer any 335 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,720 additional statements other than yes or no answers. I know 336 00:19:13,799 --> 00:19:16,200 that people who were hoping that there was going to 337 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,240 be an allocution, that he was going to confess to 338 00:19:18,279 --> 00:19:21,559 everything that does not happen until the sentence scene, or 339 00:19:21,599 --> 00:19:23,400 at least that to the information I was given by 340 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,720 one of our legal experts. If that's what you were 341 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,759 looking for, you wouldn't have gotten that today. You will 342 00:19:28,799 --> 00:19:31,960 get that if it's gotten at all. On July twenty third, 343 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:36,240 the prosecution presented the evidence that they would have offered 344 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,880 against Coburger at trial, which was very interesting. So it 345 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,359 was a narrative essentially very similar to the probable cause 346 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,400 affidavit that basically said here is all the information that 347 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,279 we have and would have presented. So they talked to 348 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:53,599 DNA on the knife sheath, Sell tower, data, surveillance footage, 349 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:57,519 Amazon search and purchase history. They laid out like they 350 00:19:57,519 --> 00:20:00,119 did their best hits. They said, this wasn't all all 351 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,240 of what we had, but this is the best of 352 00:20:02,279 --> 00:20:05,279 what we had. And at that point the judge said, okay. 353 00:20:05,759 --> 00:20:10,440 The defense and prosecution both waived pre sentencing investigation and 354 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,920 they asked proceed directly to July twenty third for sentencing, 355 00:20:14,039 --> 00:20:18,160 so there's no more convening until July twenty third. The 356 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,079 judge actually said that the week of the twenty third 357 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,119 was a week that the courtroom calendar had been entirely 358 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,000 cleared of all other cases because they wanted to do 359 00:20:27,079 --> 00:20:31,000 jury selection for coburgers. Obviously, now that's no longer necessary, 360 00:20:31,039 --> 00:20:33,079 so he's got a couple of days in there that 361 00:20:33,319 --> 00:20:35,720 now the court has been cleared of all other cases. 362 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:37,680 So he was like, let's just do it on the 363 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,759 twenty third. That's when we have a clear courtroom. Nobody 364 00:20:40,759 --> 00:20:42,599 else is going to be in the courthouse. The judge 365 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,920 and the prosecution also expressed their desire for family members 366 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,720 to present victim's impact statements if they so choose, and 367 00:20:48,799 --> 00:20:50,920 I hope that they all do. And they set a 368 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,200 start time of nine am on July twenty third, so 369 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,000 that these statements in sentencing could be an all day process. 370 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,319 They said they didn't expect it to take longer than 371 00:20:59,319 --> 00:21:01,759 a day, but I imagine that they'll try to monitor 372 00:21:01,759 --> 00:21:02,799 Ina just as needed. 373 00:21:03,279 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 3: One of the most satisfying parts of the Golden State 374 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:12,839 killer case for me personally was hearing these incredible victims' 375 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,759 impact statements, because that was a situation too where there 376 00:21:16,759 --> 00:21:20,640 was a plea bargain, and it allowed the families to 377 00:21:20,759 --> 00:21:24,920 have the last word in terms of expressing the depth 378 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,720 of their loss, how much this had impacted them, and 379 00:21:28,759 --> 00:21:32,160 they were powerful and beautiful, sometimes hard to listen. I 380 00:21:32,319 --> 00:21:36,200 thought they were incredibly important, and this is something that 381 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,319 we've seen in recent years where the step of having 382 00:21:39,519 --> 00:21:44,400 victim impact statements is so important, I think, particularly for 383 00:21:44,839 --> 00:21:49,480 family members and the community to hear directly from the 384 00:21:49,519 --> 00:21:51,119 people that have lost loved ones. 385 00:21:51,559 --> 00:21:54,759 Speaker 4: I remember watching the victim's impact statements for that, and 386 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:59,400 I especially remember watching Jane Carson Sandler tell DiAngelo that 387 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,160 she hoped you w in hell, and I was like, 388 00:22:01,319 --> 00:22:05,039 oh girl, good for you, Good for you, And I 389 00:22:05,039 --> 00:22:06,720 told her that. Once I met her, I said, I'm 390 00:22:06,759 --> 00:22:08,480 so glad that you said it. And I would imagine 391 00:22:08,519 --> 00:22:10,680 there has to be a certain amount of catharsis there 392 00:22:10,799 --> 00:22:13,799 at being able to say it. I like the victim's 393 00:22:13,799 --> 00:22:17,400 impact statement process, and I hope that the families will 394 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,680 all take advantage of it. It's got to be gut wrenching. 395 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,000 I would imagine that being able to say it to 396 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,559 somebody's face, there's got to be a certain amount of 397 00:22:26,839 --> 00:22:28,680 relief in being able to say it. 398 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 2: I think so too. 399 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 3: And we know several people that have done it, and 400 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,400 they've talked about what a rewarding experience it was. It 401 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,200 was incredibly difficult, maybe the most difficult thing they'd ever done. 402 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,079 For those that choose that option, and they want that 403 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:48,000 opportunity to look the offender in the eye and let 404 00:22:48,039 --> 00:22:50,920 them know how this has impacted, then I think it's 405 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:55,680 incredibly important. I hope it does happen. On July twenty third, 406 00:22:56,599 --> 00:22:59,319 you're listening to Mind Over Murder, will be right back 407 00:22:59,519 --> 00:23:01,319 after this word from our sponsors. 408 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 2: We're back here at Mind Over Murder. 409 00:23:07,279 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 4: If it ever comes an opportunity for that to happen 410 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,440 in our case. Would you be giving a victims impect statement. 411 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:17,880 I'd love to the ability to be able to say, look, 412 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:23,079 how utterly you have changed the whole entire course of 413 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,319 our lives as a result of your actions. That's very 414 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,400 powerful and I'm very much looking forward to it. I 415 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,680 know that I'll cry. I cried watching the GSK the 416 00:23:32,839 --> 00:23:35,559 victims and pect statements. I don't think that anyone with 417 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,200 a heart can watch that and not cry at least 418 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,359 a little bit. I certainly hope that will be something 419 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:43,799 that they take full advantage of, because I think it 420 00:23:43,839 --> 00:23:46,720 can only help. The judge did order that the gag 421 00:23:46,839 --> 00:23:50,079 order remain in place until the sentencing, and then I 422 00:23:50,079 --> 00:23:52,920 imagine after the sentencing, the floodgates are going to open. 423 00:23:53,319 --> 00:23:56,599 As we'd addressed last episode, there will probably be some 424 00:23:56,759 --> 00:23:59,960 families who don't ever want to talk it with the media. 425 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,000 That is fully their right, and I hope that people 426 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,519 who again feel that sort of sense of ownership over 427 00:24:05,559 --> 00:24:08,000 the case or connection with the case, I hope that 428 00:24:08,039 --> 00:24:11,279 they understand that it is always the right of families 429 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:12,119 to say nothing. 430 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 3: They don't owe us, they they owe us exactly nothing, 431 00:24:17,599 --> 00:24:20,519 and they should just be permitted. 432 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 2: To live their lives in whatever way is appropriate. 433 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 4: I had been looking at some information, peruising around to 434 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,359 see who had said what from the families, and in Shapin, 435 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:31,400 for anybody who doesn't know he's in Shapin, was a 436 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,720 triplet and his brother and sister, A surviving brother and 437 00:24:35,759 --> 00:24:38,319 sister choose to speak out and be part of a 438 00:24:38,599 --> 00:24:43,440 documentary that will come out later in July on Amazon Prime. 439 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,759 Not everybody's siblings would be up to that, and they 440 00:24:47,799 --> 00:24:48,960 don't owe us that. 441 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,519 Speaker 3: For me, I wouldn't hesitate to speak or to write something. 442 00:24:53,839 --> 00:24:57,160 I know for my surviving brothers they would not choose 443 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,759 to do that. Now, my older brother Richard and my 444 00:24:59,799 --> 00:25:05,720 young your brother Jack are both incredibly smart, articulate, accomplished men, 445 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:11,000 but this isn't a topic they want to address in public. 446 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,559 I completely understand it, and they could talk circles around 447 00:25:15,599 --> 00:25:19,079 me on any number of other subjects, but they wouldn't 448 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,759 have much of anything to say, and it would be 449 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,119 very difficult emotionally. It'll be difficult for me emotionally if 450 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:29,000 the opportunity ever presents itself. So I completely get the 451 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:33,319 variety of opinions within the Idaho families. We'll see what 452 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:38,000 happens in terms of going forward, who chooses to speak 453 00:25:38,039 --> 00:25:41,240 publicly and who does not. You can see people certain 454 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,920 personalities have stepped forward and are quite outspoken and even aggressive, 455 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,359 and that's fine. And then there are other people that 456 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,200 just want to be left alone and live the rest 457 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,880 of their lives and come to deal with they're never 458 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,960 going to recover. And we've talked about this several times 459 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,920 on Mind over Murder. I push back against the idea 460 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,799 of closure, or it's just not comfortable with it. 461 00:26:06,839 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 2: I don't believe it exists. 462 00:26:09,039 --> 00:26:12,079 Speaker 3: You lose someone in the way that we've lost Kathy 463 00:26:12,279 --> 00:26:15,440 and the other victims in the Colonial Parkway murders, it's 464 00:26:15,559 --> 00:26:18,920 never going to be the same, not even close. So 465 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,519 don't talk to me about closure. There is no such 466 00:26:21,599 --> 00:26:25,279 thing for me. Now for somebody else, maybe they're more 467 00:26:25,319 --> 00:26:27,079 spiritual or what have you. 468 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 2: Like we talked about your marriage may vary. 469 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 3: I have a great deal of respect for all of 470 00:26:32,759 --> 00:26:35,480 these people who've suffered these kind of losses. 471 00:26:35,839 --> 00:26:37,039 Speaker 2: These next couple of. 472 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 3: Months, it'll be interesting to see who wants to step 473 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,920 forward and convey their feelings and others who just want 474 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,200 to be quiet and private and focus on the rest 475 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:48,000 of their lives. 476 00:26:48,559 --> 00:26:52,039 Speaker 4: Agreed, And I think it's important for people to extend 477 00:26:52,039 --> 00:26:54,960 that courtesy not just to the Idah of four families, 478 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,920 but for example, to the two surviving roommates, because they 479 00:26:59,039 --> 00:27:03,480 apparently have also been subject to a lot of media scrutiny, 480 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,920 and not just from the mainstream media, but from influencers, 481 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:12,440 from maybe some less scrupulous publications. It's so important or 482 00:27:12,839 --> 00:27:17,559 the media, both mainstream and maybe more of the influencer base. 483 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:18,880 I know you hate that word, but I can't think 484 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,880 of anything better to use the influencer based of I 485 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,400 think it's just so important for people to understand that 486 00:27:24,519 --> 00:27:28,000 every facet of this case affects people. Again, while I 487 00:27:28,039 --> 00:27:30,880 was reading While Idaho Slept, he talks about the first 488 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,799 responders who arrived at that house and saw the sheer 489 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,160 amount of carnage that had happened to those four kids. 490 00:27:38,559 --> 00:27:40,400 That is something they're never going to be able to unsee, 491 00:27:40,519 --> 00:27:43,519 not their whole entire lives, the same way that you 492 00:27:43,559 --> 00:27:47,000 can't unsee your sister's crime scene photographs and I can't either. 493 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,279 They are burned on the back of my retina. I 494 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,160 see them when I go to sleep. Everybody involved in 495 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:57,359 a case start to finish, no matter how integral or tangential, 496 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,440 deserves the same amount of respect. No one should be 497 00:28:01,799 --> 00:28:04,640 prodded into telling things they're not comfortable with, Like the 498 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,960 surviving roommates. The Coburger family deserves just as much privacy 499 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,319 and respect as the families of the Idaho four victims. 500 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:13,920 I know that for some people that might be a 501 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,720 bit of a hot take, but they didn't ask to 502 00:28:16,799 --> 00:28:19,839 be the parents and siblings of a quadruple murderer. 503 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I saw something sass for it. I saw some 504 00:28:22,519 --> 00:28:25,240 stuff on social media today that I just was so 505 00:28:25,759 --> 00:28:26,480 struck by. 506 00:28:26,839 --> 00:28:29,519 Speaker 2: Man. People they're insisting. 507 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 3: The Coburger mother and father should have known, could have known, 508 00:28:33,759 --> 00:28:37,559 covered it up, dad helped him escape. None of these 509 00:28:37,559 --> 00:28:42,400 things are true. No, and no, the Coburgers didn't commit 510 00:28:42,519 --> 00:28:46,799 this crime. Brian Coburger did. Oh and while I'm on 511 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:48,160 the topic, all. 512 00:28:48,079 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 2: Those people now that have been. 513 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 3: Defending Brian Coburger and insisting that it was somebody else 514 00:28:55,359 --> 00:28:58,359 and he's getting a bum wrap, you can zip it 515 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,920 now because you know something. Coburger and his defense team 516 00:29:02,079 --> 00:29:06,440 have admitted he was guilty they've admitted that he killed 517 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,799 those people, so you can just shut up. I've seen 518 00:29:11,079 --> 00:29:15,279 enough people insisting that Brian Coburger is innocent and he's 519 00:29:15,319 --> 00:29:18,960 been railroaded and that he didn't commit these crimes. 520 00:29:19,039 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, you're wrong, You're dead wrong. 521 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 3: And your hero, if you want to call him, that 522 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,839 has now publicly admitted this afternoon that he committed those crimes, 523 00:29:30,119 --> 00:29:32,799 So you people can just give it a rest. 524 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,359 Speaker 4: Agreed one hundred percent. And the tendency that people have 525 00:29:37,599 --> 00:29:40,880 to leap to he couldn't have done it. It was somebody else. 526 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,799 It was a conspiracy. When something doesn't go their way, 527 00:29:43,839 --> 00:29:48,200 they immediately leap to conspiracy. He's being railroaded. It's a conspiracy. 528 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:53,039 I hate the word conspiracy. I hate it, yeah, because 529 00:29:53,079 --> 00:29:56,599 people take it to the worst possible place every time. 530 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,839 But one hundred percent, I agree with you, and I 531 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:00,279 know that at some point or another, wor we want 532 00:30:00,279 --> 00:30:02,839 to do a whole entire episode on serial killer groupies 533 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,200 and just murderers groupies in general. There was a chapter 534 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,079 in here, and while I don't know sleeps about the 535 00:30:09,119 --> 00:30:12,039 fact that Brian Koberger suddenly started getting love letters and 536 00:30:12,079 --> 00:30:13,319 fan mail in jail. 537 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 2: Oh please, what is it with these people? 538 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 4: I don't get it. They said. It reached a point 539 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,319 where people were talking about he's so handsome, he could 540 00:30:21,319 --> 00:30:24,759 not have done it. They were drawing Ted Bundy comparisons. Yuck. 541 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 2: It's just gross. 542 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 4: Yuck. 543 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 3: Speaking of respectful questions and perspectives, you wanted to talk 544 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,480 a little bit about the many comments we saw on 545 00:30:34,599 --> 00:30:38,640 our social media pages from the listeners to mind over Murder. 546 00:30:38,799 --> 00:30:40,119 Speaker 2: So what do they have to say? 547 00:30:40,359 --> 00:30:43,039 Speaker 4: You know, we have the best listeners. I don't say 548 00:30:43,079 --> 00:30:46,880 that lightly because for every live event that we do, 549 00:30:47,599 --> 00:30:51,480 people show up. We really love and respect those of 550 00:30:51,519 --> 00:30:55,279 you guys that show up for us because it's amazing. 551 00:30:55,559 --> 00:30:57,920 Thank you to everybody who takes the time to comment 552 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,640 on our social media pages. And if you're not following 553 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,000 our social media pages but you are listening to the podcast, 554 00:31:03,039 --> 00:31:05,480 please follow us. We want you to engage with us. 555 00:31:05,759 --> 00:31:07,680 We want to hear from way more of you than 556 00:31:07,799 --> 00:31:11,960 the money that commented on this social media post. But 557 00:31:12,319 --> 00:31:15,359 I had asked last night, is the plead deal for 558 00:31:15,559 --> 00:31:18,920 Brian Coberger the best form of justice for the families? 559 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,319 And we invited you to let us know your thoughts 560 00:31:21,759 --> 00:31:25,240 and you did and they were all smart and all interesting. 561 00:31:25,319 --> 00:31:27,279 So I want to go ahead and just list a 562 00:31:27,319 --> 00:31:31,480 couple of people's responses, shout them out for class participation. 563 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,920 I'm a teacher. I love good participation. I want to 564 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,519 give these so that people who may not have had 565 00:31:36,519 --> 00:31:38,279 a chance to look at these can hear some of 566 00:31:38,319 --> 00:31:40,559 the responses. So I'm actually going to start with my 567 00:31:40,599 --> 00:31:43,799 friend Chris, who is he is a trial attorney, so 568 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,559 he started with this trial attorney here, albeit civil not criminal. 569 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,279 Number one. Every time you go to trial, it's a gamble. 570 00:31:50,359 --> 00:31:53,759 No matter how strong the evidence looks. From a defense perspective, 571 00:31:53,799 --> 00:31:57,279 you only need to turn one juror bram mistrial. Number two. 572 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,400 Had the state won and solve the death penalty, years 573 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,799 of protracted and expensive appeals would have ensued. Number three, 574 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,200 life without parole is no joke, even if some family 575 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,160 members may think so. Number four. This may be hard 576 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:11,720 to hear, but at the end of the day, the 577 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:16,119 prosecution's client is the state, not the family members. It 578 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,920 is in the state's best interest to have Coburger locked 579 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,559 up forever while saving the time, expense, uncertainty, and appeals 580 00:32:22,599 --> 00:32:25,319 process of a trial. Bravo Chris, thank you. 581 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 3: And very thoughtful analysis from an attorney. 582 00:32:29,279 --> 00:32:31,319 Speaker 4: Noah, I agree. We actually had a couple of people 583 00:32:31,359 --> 00:32:32,680 who are attorneys who weighed in on this. 584 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I thought their responses were very thought provoking. 585 00:32:36,559 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 4: The next person is from Tammy, who disagrees. She said 586 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,400 the family should have been the destciders here and if 587 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,720 no agreement, then move ahead with the trial. 588 00:32:45,119 --> 00:32:48,079 Speaker 3: I totally get where Tammy's coming from, although at the 589 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,480 end of the day, the prosecution works for the state, 590 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,319 not for the families, as I'm constantly reminded in our case. 591 00:32:55,839 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 4: Kurt says, I truly hope this plea bargain requires Coburger 592 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,079 to confess openly in court and to tell the court 593 00:33:01,119 --> 00:33:03,200 and families why he did these horrific crimes. 594 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,839 Speaker 3: Hell to DS, I felt exactly the same way and 595 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:08,640 still do. And you saw how that two of the 596 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:15,119 dads weighed in. They really want Coberger to explain and allocute, 597 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,599 as they say, in a court of law, how this 598 00:33:17,799 --> 00:33:21,119 happened and the why. I'm not saying any of this 599 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,839 is going to be acceptable, but I think it would 600 00:33:23,839 --> 00:33:26,839 be important for all of us to hear, especially the families. 601 00:33:27,359 --> 00:33:31,039 Speaker 4: Lulu asked, just curious, but our families permitted to address 602 00:33:31,119 --> 00:33:33,839 him in court if there is a plea deal, whether 603 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:35,960 the death penalty or life behind bars. It seems the 604 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:37,920 families should be given the option to make a statement 605 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,400 if they choose to, and our understanding is yes, they 606 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,640 are allowed to make victims impact statements as part of 607 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,400 the sentencing. Jamie says, at least two of the four 608 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,640 families that I've seen so far don't believe this was 609 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,960 the best form of justice for them and have strongly 610 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,200 spoken out against the plea deal. Being emotionally detached from 611 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,400 the situation, I can see that the family was spared 612 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,960 a lengthy trial and won't have to go through endless appeals. 613 00:33:59,279 --> 00:34:01,480 A sick individual, well, it's behind bars and we'll stay 614 00:34:01,519 --> 00:34:03,720 there where he belongs, and I'm good with that. But 615 00:34:03,839 --> 00:34:06,920 with two families being passionately outspoken, it's obvious there was 616 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,760 something lacking in the process. At some point, there was 617 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,760 not sufficient communication about what was happening, and that is 618 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,199 a problem. I think again, Hell of the yes, what 619 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:15,639 do you think? 620 00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:19,119 Speaker 2: Bill? Totally agree that needs to be addressed. 621 00:34:18,639 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 3: Because I don't know how they can be talking with 622 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,440 the Idahell families on Friday and then come out with 623 00:34:24,519 --> 00:34:27,800 a letter on Sunday saying, look, we have a plea agreement. 624 00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:31,920 The judge himself acknowledged that many of those families aren't 625 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,760 from Idaho and they had to get there in time 626 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,960 for the hearing. I think this could have been worked 627 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:42,199 out better, and clearly there were communication problems between the 628 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,599 prosecutor's office and the families. I don't know if the 629 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,679 prosecutors didn't want to hear it in terms of pushback 630 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,400 from at least two of the families, or the whole 631 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,639 thing came together over the weekend. It sounds like this 632 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,000 could have been handled better in terms of the communication, 633 00:34:58,159 --> 00:34:59,480 particularly with the families. 634 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,199 Speaker 4: Jessica follows up with that. She says, I read that 635 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,719 some of the families feel like they weren't informed properly, 636 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,800 and it felt like they as victims were not treated 637 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,599 properly by the prosecution. Why is this happening to prosecutors 638 00:35:11,679 --> 00:35:14,920 not feel an obligation to victims to treat them with respect. 639 00:35:15,079 --> 00:35:18,079 Speaker 3: I don't know the answer, but it sure is a 640 00:35:18,079 --> 00:35:22,880 good question, because why weren't the families properly informed? I 641 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,079 don't know if there was anything magic about announcing this 642 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,760 Lee agreement on Monday. I think the judge could have 643 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:34,639 said no statements shall be made publicly until after the 644 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,679 families are informed and given sufficient notice to get here 645 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:42,760 to Idaho for the hearings. But I think it's an 646 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,719 excellent question. I don't know the answer. It's got to 647 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:47,440 be handled better than it was this time. 648 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,280 Speaker 4: Elizabeth Wayhs in civil attorney here. While I understand why 649 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,360 the prosecution did what they did, many prosecutors want to 650 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,320 avoid a trial at all costs. It seems like they 651 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,320 had a solid case, but you never know. The bigger 652 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,000 issue is how they treated the vocal families who are 653 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,800 not in favor of a plea deal. Additionally, there is 654 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,039 no requirement that he say anything other than he's guilty 655 00:36:09,079 --> 00:36:11,840 and understands the plea and what it means. Hopefully the 656 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,280 families start to heal. But I've never been in their positions, 657 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,440 so I cannot fault them for feeling a bit betrayed 658 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:17,039 by the system. 659 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 2: I totally agree. 660 00:36:18,599 --> 00:36:22,320 Speaker 3: I'm hoping that we will hear the allocution at the 661 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,679 sentencing on July twenty third. That's what our experts are 662 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:27,920 telling us, so fingers crossed that they're right. 663 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,159 Speaker 4: Nancy says in the aspect that the families will avoid 664 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,880 years more of appeals and than possibly parole hearings. It 665 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,679 was the best for justice, know in the sense that 666 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,039 a court trial adds to the sense of justice being 667 00:36:40,119 --> 00:36:43,960 served hopefully and learning details which may answer questions, perhaps 668 00:36:44,039 --> 00:36:46,679 even watching him squirm. I think the suddenness of this 669 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:48,880 creates a bit of a shock of now we have 670 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,559 to absorb that after years of waiting, it's over in 671 00:36:51,679 --> 00:36:54,519 nearly a heartbeat. Also, his life is spared when their 672 00:36:54,519 --> 00:36:57,440 family members were not. No justice in that. I find 673 00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,599 it another cowardly act on behalf of. 674 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,159 Speaker 2: I totally get it, Judy says. 675 00:37:03,159 --> 00:37:05,199 Speaker 4: In the long run, this is absolutely what's best all 676 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,719 the way around for the families to get it over with, 677 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,000 where they have no more court dates where because he 678 00:37:10,039 --> 00:37:12,320 can't appeal, and they won't be waiting wondering when in 679 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,639 the next twenty five years still carry out the death penalty. 680 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,480 It's good for the taxpayers because, contrary to the belief 681 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,360 of most, it does not cost more to feed and 682 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,400 house an inmate for the remainder of their life than 683 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,239 the cost of a year's worth of appeals. 684 00:37:23,519 --> 00:37:25,679 Speaker 3: I would have to agree, and if I'm not mistaken, 685 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,920 Coburger's around thirty years old. Yeah, if he maintains his 686 00:37:30,039 --> 00:37:33,239 good health, he could be in jail for fifty years. 687 00:37:33,599 --> 00:37:37,280 So when you mentioned that the other death row inmate 688 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:42,320 in Idaho had been awaiting execution for more than forty years, 689 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:47,039 you can see how either way death row inmate or 690 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,599 life without parole, it's going to be a protracted process 691 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:51,880 one way or another. 692 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 4: Laura adds to that, she says, the reality is, no 693 00:37:55,039 --> 00:37:58,119 matter one's views on capital punishment, the death penalty process 694 00:37:58,199 --> 00:38:01,599 is excruciatingly long in come implicated, and that means the 695 00:38:01,639 --> 00:38:04,199 families of victims are subject to years of appeals, in 696 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,480 court appearances and so on. The guilty police stops that, 697 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,559 especially since he agrees to not appealing the sentence. 698 00:38:11,039 --> 00:38:13,039 Speaker 3: And I think it was one of the fathers that 699 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:17,239 was saying that as well. Yeah, Ben Mogen said that 700 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,400 they just wanted to put this behind them, and that 701 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,079 the Mogans didn't want to be waiting for years, which 702 00:38:24,119 --> 00:38:26,880 would have happened if this had been a death penalty case. 703 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,840 As I said, it's not like Coburger's found guilty and 704 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,559 they take him out behind the barn and shoot him immediately. 705 00:38:32,599 --> 00:38:35,519 At the end, of the hearing. It doesn't work that way. 706 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,719 It is such a protracted, horrible process. 707 00:38:39,199 --> 00:38:42,280 Speaker 4: Two more people who wait in Lindsey Hi Lindsay the 708 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,920 family members who were advocating for the death penalty via 709 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,440 firing squad likely would have found that didn't bring any 710 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,199 greater sense of justice. In the end, trials can go wrong. 711 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,639 Guilty people go free all the time. He's locked up indefinitely. 712 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:55,000 That is the best outcome here. 713 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've got three words for you, OJ Simpson, the 714 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,000 guy walked. He was only found guilty in a civil 715 00:39:02,039 --> 00:39:04,719 trial and should have been a slam dunk case. I'm 716 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:08,559 pretty convinced that OJ Simpson killed his wife and Ron Goldman, 717 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,639 and there's not much way around that. You may disagree 718 00:39:11,639 --> 00:39:13,960 with me, but I think they had the evidence. But yet, 719 00:39:14,039 --> 00:39:15,840 all it takes is one. 720 00:39:15,679 --> 00:39:19,199 Speaker 4: Juror and finally we're going to give Debbie the last 721 00:39:19,559 --> 00:39:21,960 word here. The state took the easy way out. I 722 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:23,960 think the families deserve a trial if they won't one. 723 00:39:24,119 --> 00:39:25,840 I agree they got a guilty plead, but he'll have 724 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,800 a life commissary, visitors, a chance to further his education, 725 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,639 free medical dental perks for good behavior. What do the 726 00:39:31,639 --> 00:39:34,159 families get not only did they lose their children in 727 00:39:34,199 --> 00:39:37,119 a horrible, terrible way, but they will know he will 728 00:39:37,119 --> 00:39:39,480 be spread the death penalty. The state of Idaho has 729 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,639 failed the families. I hope he suffers every day. Yeah, 730 00:39:42,639 --> 00:39:43,440 we hope so too. 731 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:47,119 Speaker 3: Can't say I disagree, but this is how it's gone down. 732 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,679 I think we should all find ways to move forward. 733 00:39:50,159 --> 00:39:55,119 Speaker 4: It has been quite a day here discussing the Coworker 734 00:39:55,199 --> 00:39:58,239 plea deal bill. Any final thoughts on. 735 00:39:58,159 --> 00:40:02,079 Speaker 3: This just a reminder of for myself and everybody. Look, 736 00:40:02,559 --> 00:40:05,880 you can see passions are running high. There's a lot 737 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:10,440 of strong opinion about this case just because someone looks 738 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,320 at something one way. Look what we're seeing with the 739 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,920 families here. Two of the families are okay. 740 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 2: With the plea arrangement. 741 00:40:18,639 --> 00:40:23,039 Speaker 3: Two of the families are desperately unhappy that's going to happen. 742 00:40:23,599 --> 00:40:26,320 It's just important to remember that there are people of 743 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,039 goodwill on both sides of this argument. 744 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,320 Speaker 2: I am perfectly. 745 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,159 Speaker 3: Fine to see Coburger spend the rest of his life 746 00:40:34,199 --> 00:40:34,679 in jail. 747 00:40:35,159 --> 00:40:37,840 Speaker 2: That was how this case worked out. 748 00:40:38,199 --> 00:40:40,800 Speaker 3: Even if I had been rooting for him to die 749 00:40:41,079 --> 00:40:43,519 as a result of the death penalty, I probably would 750 00:40:43,519 --> 00:40:47,199 have been waiting for years, maybe even decades. So if anything, 751 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,519 we know what's happened. We know that Coburger has pled guilty, 752 00:40:52,079 --> 00:40:53,199 no chance of appeal. 753 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 2: He can go in jail for the rest of his life. 754 00:40:56,159 --> 00:41:00,599 Speaker 4: Agreed. There are currently two books out on the Idaho 755 00:41:00,679 --> 00:41:02,960 four case, so if anybody wants to add yet more 756 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,400 to their reading list, those are While Idaho Slept, The 757 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,920 Hunt for Answers and the Murders of Four College Students 758 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,039 by Jay Rubin Appleman. I really liked it, just finished 759 00:41:12,039 --> 00:41:15,039 it earlier today, highly recommend it. I have not read 760 00:41:15,079 --> 00:41:17,480 this one yet, but now, of course I'm going to look. 761 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:19,440 I'm gonna get off here and start it when the 762 00:41:19,519 --> 00:41:22,280 night comes. Following a Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders 763 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,000 by Howard Blum, I think I want to end by 764 00:41:25,039 --> 00:41:28,639 making sure that we remember the four victims in this case, 765 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,960 because ultimately that is what this comes down to. Their 766 00:41:32,039 --> 00:41:38,880 names were Xana, Carnodle, Kayleegankalves, Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogen. There 767 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:40,920 has been some justice for the four of them with 768 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,840 the Coburger guilty plea, and I think that's the best 769 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:44,880 we can hope for right now. 770 00:41:45,039 --> 00:41:46,679 Speaker 2: Well, said that is going to do it. 771 00:41:46,679 --> 00:41:48,960 Speaker 4: For this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so 772 00:41:49,039 --> 00:41:51,199 much for listening. We'll see you next time. 773 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,920 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 774 00:42:04,039 --> 00:42:05,440 Another Dog Productions. 775 00:42:06,039 --> 00:42:09,360 Speaker 3: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 776 00:42:09,679 --> 00:42:12,119 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 777 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:14,800 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McCloud. 778 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:19,280 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with kral Space Media. 779 00:42:20,039 --> 00:42:23,199 Speaker 3: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 780 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 781 00:42:26,079 --> 00:42:27,960 Murders on Facebook. 782 00:42:27,679 --> 00:42:30,719 Speaker 3: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 783 00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:32,360 Bill Thomas five six. 784 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,920 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.