WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.480 Before we dive in. Here's another show you can enjoy 2 00:00:02.520 --> 00:00:05.120 in the True Story FM Family of Entertainment podcasts. 3 00:00:08.279 --> 00:00:11.599 Okay, now for the lightning round. I'm so good at 4 00:00:11.679 --> 00:00:14.960 lightning rounds. That's from Friends. It's my favorite show. Twenty 5 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:18.079 seconds on the Clock starts. Now, who is the captain 6 00:00:18.199 --> 00:00:23.280 of the USS Enterprise? Crap? Is it Captain Stubing? No 7 00:00:23.519 --> 00:00:29.879 Morgan crunch. Next question, which superhero is Tony Stark? Stark? 8 00:00:30.760 --> 00:00:33.960 Did Game of Thrones have superheroes? I only watch two episodes? 9 00:00:34.359 --> 00:00:38.079 What planet where? Luke and Leah born on Planet Fitness? 10 00:00:40.359 --> 00:00:40.600 Oh? 11 00:00:40.920 --> 00:00:41.799 Time's up? 12 00:00:42.280 --> 00:00:42.600 Sorry? 13 00:00:43.799 --> 00:00:45.640 And now a word from our sponsor. 14 00:00:46.280 --> 00:00:49.960 Hey everybody, Mandy Kaplan here. Please check out my podcast 15 00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:52.799 Make Me a Nerd, where each week an incredible guest 16 00:00:52.840 --> 00:00:55.960 tries to baptize this mainstream mom into the world of 17 00:00:56.000 --> 00:00:58.640 sci fi, fantasy and all things nerdy. 18 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:02.479 Available wherever you podcast. That's our show, folks. 19 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:05.040 Wait, movie, I just thought of it, pad me Ami 20 00:01:05.079 --> 00:01:07.040 Dalla gave birth to her twins, Luke and Leah on 21 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:07.879 Poulus Masa. 22 00:01:08.200 --> 00:01:09.040 Now that's dumb? 23 00:01:09.439 --> 00:01:09.560 Is it? 24 00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:10.400 Plan of Hollywood? 25 00:01:12.760 --> 00:01:15.519 Hey, Pete, I ever wonder what Steven Spielberg's favorite film 26 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:16.599 is you know Andy. 27 00:01:16.640 --> 00:01:19.760 I've heard he loves classics like Lawrence of Arabia, Meme 28 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:20.719 and Saint Louis. 29 00:01:21.159 --> 00:01:24.519 Imagine chatting with him about why those films resonate with 30 00:01:24.560 --> 00:01:25.159 him so much. 31 00:01:25.359 --> 00:01:28.000 That's exactly what we do on our podcast Movies We Like. 32 00:01:28.439 --> 00:01:33.200 We've had incredible guests like actress Dee Wallace, cinematographer Eric Measureschmidt, 33 00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:38.000 director Steve Miner, and former Disney animators Tom and Tony Bancroft. 34 00:01:38.239 --> 00:01:41.159 They share their favorite films and the impact they've had 35 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:44.560 on their careers, offering fascinating insights into the craftsmanship and 36 00:01:44.640 --> 00:01:47.599 storytelling techniques that make these movies so special. 37 00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:51.000 If you're curious about the magic behind the scenes, subscribe 38 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:53.120 to Movies We Like from True Story FM on your 39 00:01:53.159 --> 00:01:56.560 favorite podcast app. New episodes are released on the fourth 40 00:01:56.560 --> 00:01:59.079 Monday of each month, with early access for our. 41 00:01:58.959 --> 00:02:02.079 Members some movies we like. As we explore the movies 42 00:02:02.120 --> 00:02:04.319 we all like with the people who make them. 43 00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:07.040 And Steven, our people will call your people. Let's make 44 00:02:07.079 --> 00:02:09.280 this happen, BIVI subscribe today. 45 00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:15.120 Hello and welcome to listeners of both the Superhero Ethics 46 00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:18.639 and Star Wars Generations podcast. This is Matthew your host 47 00:02:18.639 --> 00:02:20.840 for both of those. I'm sorry to say that this 48 00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:23.039 has been a really crazy week, and just this morning 49 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:25.240 we found out that my grandfather had passed away, my 50 00:02:25.599 --> 00:02:28.520 spouse's grandfather, but he'd been a grandfather to me as well. 51 00:02:28.960 --> 00:02:30.719 As you can imagine, there's a lot going on, a 52 00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:33.199 lot of arrangements, we made, a lot of family stuff happening, 53 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:35.199 and so I'm not going to be able to record 54 00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:38.159 episodes for either of these podcasts this week, and so 55 00:02:38.199 --> 00:02:40.840 I'm putting this out as my apology. I think we're 56 00:02:40.840 --> 00:02:43.159 going to have a older episode attached at the end 57 00:02:43.199 --> 00:02:45.919 of this as a rebroadcast, hopefully something you haven't heard before, 58 00:02:45.960 --> 00:02:47.680 because for those of you who are new listeners, or 59 00:02:47.719 --> 00:02:50.639 something that maybe you had heard quite a while ago 60 00:02:50.719 --> 00:02:54.039 but forgotten and maybe think about differently today. So please enjoy, 61 00:02:54.479 --> 00:02:57.719 and again my apologies, thank you also very much. We 62 00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:01.240 have spoken today on Superhero Ethics. We go where no 63 00:03:01.400 --> 00:03:04.439 podcast has gone before, into a land where two of 64 00:03:04.479 --> 00:03:07.360 the people on this podcast have blue or purple streaks 65 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:10.639 in their hair, but not mister Hoppy. More importantly, we're 66 00:03:10.639 --> 00:03:13.360 talking about star Trek and the nature of the Frontier 67 00:03:13.719 --> 00:03:17.360 with Professor Matthew Capel and Paul Hoppy and myself all 68 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:25.520 that more after a commercial break we have no control over. 69 00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:31.479 Welcome back to Matthew, your host these day then pronouns. 70 00:03:31.759 --> 00:03:35.159 I'm joined, as fairly often by my still stuck in 71 00:03:35.159 --> 00:03:38.240 the twenty first century with no foreign color in his hair, 72 00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:43.199 co host of Dujure Paul, Happy, Paul, how you doing today? 73 00:03:43.960 --> 00:03:47.360 I'm good. Yeah, that's all I got. I'm good, yeah, okay, 74 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:48.319 and very propose. 75 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:53.520 Also joining me is another guest who I've recorded a 76 00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:56.680 podcast with already. We had audio problems. They may get rescued, 77 00:03:56.719 --> 00:03:59.879 but I'm really glad to have back again. Professor Matthew Cappell. 78 00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:04.680 Matthew is a professor of American Studies in Anthropology at 79 00:04:04.759 --> 00:04:07.560 Pace University in New York City. I got a great 80 00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:10.680 email a while ago now saying that he was a 81 00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:12.960 fan of the podcast, that he had some ideas about, 82 00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:15.680 you know, looking at a lot of the stuff we 83 00:04:15.719 --> 00:04:19.560 talk about through the lens of mythology and storytelling, and 84 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:22.680 how these themes play into larger themes that are just apart. 85 00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:25.120 It just made my academic heart get so happy and 86 00:04:25.160 --> 00:04:27.079 made me realize I wanted Matthew on the podcast. 87 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:29.879 For as many episodes as we could. We have a 88 00:04:29.879 --> 00:04:30.199 lot of. 89 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:32.000 Star Wars contact coming out now, so I said, hey, 90 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:33.560 what can we do other than Star Wars? And he 91 00:04:33.639 --> 00:04:37.079 mentioned the Star Wars Star Trek because we can do 92 00:04:37.160 --> 00:04:39.480 both of them, Star Trek and the Frontier. And I 93 00:04:39.480 --> 00:04:42.199 thought this would be a fantastic topic. So Matthew, so 94 00:04:42.279 --> 00:04:44.519 good have you with us? Say hello, Hello? 95 00:04:45.639 --> 00:04:47.560 Just to be clear, it was a it was a 96 00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:49.839 fan letter, and I was not giving you suggestion. 97 00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:53.560 I think you mentioned something like this is a cool 98 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:56.279 like somehow we got into the conversation. I will say 99 00:04:56.279 --> 00:04:57.759 that a lot of people have sent me fan letters 100 00:04:57.800 --> 00:05:01.639 and they've turned into unknown solicitations to be on the podcast. 101 00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:04.120 But I'm very glad that you've done. I'm joining all 102 00:05:04.120 --> 00:05:06.120 of our conversations. I think this is gonna be a 103 00:05:06.120 --> 00:05:08.360 great one. So let me just kind of start by 104 00:05:08.439 --> 00:05:10.800 letting people hear a little bit more about you. Talk 105 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:12.360 a little about your background in terms of the kind 106 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:15.079 of stuff you teach about, and how Star Wars and 107 00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:19.120 superheroes and the epic stories that we love and talk 108 00:05:19.160 --> 00:05:21.439 about on these podcasts kind of fit into the work 109 00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:21.680 you do. 110 00:05:21.959 --> 00:05:27.240 Sure, so, I'm a historian and anthropologist, though my doctorate's 111 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:31.160 in American studies, and I've done a lot of books 112 00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:34.680 in my career on science fiction film. 113 00:05:35.079 --> 00:05:35.879 And the reason I. 114 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:39.079 Like science fiction film is because it's basically myth. It's 115 00:05:39.160 --> 00:05:41.560 the way we tell myth today. If you want to 116 00:05:41.560 --> 00:05:43.800 talk about any kind of myth, you have to start 117 00:05:43.839 --> 00:05:47.839 with Batman. You can't start with SEUs, right, And in 118 00:05:47.879 --> 00:05:52.079 that context, my PhD thesis had an entire chapter on 119 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:56.079 the frontier in Star Trek, and that's why I brought 120 00:05:56.079 --> 00:06:00.519 it up with you. And it's very much a topic 121 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:03.480 that has got ethical issues all around it, but as 122 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:06.759 most of Star Trek does so generally, I'm kind of 123 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:09.439 semi retired at this point. I basically just teach regular 124 00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:13.879 old fashioned anthropology, things like urban thnography and American studies. 125 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:16.399 I think I'm teaching a class in the Fall on 126 00:06:16.519 --> 00:06:20.800 science and technology after World War Two, so nothing special, 127 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:23.639 very mythological, but all of my writing is in myth. 128 00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:25.079 So that's why I like you. 129 00:06:26.360 --> 00:06:29.199 Nice, Nice, Well, I'm glad it's such a great topic. 130 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:31.560 I think I mentioned the other time we try to 131 00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:35.079 record a podcast that the first time I thought seriously 132 00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:38.399 about Star Wars beyond just you know, being I love 133 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:41.160 the laser sort of fights and things like that. Was 134 00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:45.639 watching the Peter Campbell, you know, and George Lucas talking 135 00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:49.240 about the power the power of myth and Star Wars, 136 00:06:49.240 --> 00:06:52.160 and since then I've come to understand that there's a 137 00:06:52.199 --> 00:06:54.399 lot more to those ideas than what those two gentlemen 138 00:06:54.439 --> 00:06:56.600 had to say. Uh, for those of you not watching 139 00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:58.519 on the stream, you didn't get to see Matthew kind 140 00:06:58.519 --> 00:06:59.920 of roll his eyes a bit when I mentioned that, 141 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:03.920 because it's just one perspective of many, but it's it's 142 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:07.199 such a rich field for discussing these things. And so 143 00:07:07.240 --> 00:07:10.279 let me just start by asking, so when we say 144 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:14.199 the frontier, like that's you know, start every Star Trek 145 00:07:14.240 --> 00:07:16.519 episode for a long time always opened with you know, 146 00:07:17.040 --> 00:07:21.040 space the final Frontier or some version of it. The 147 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:24.000 frontier was something I remember being taught about in American history, 148 00:07:24.079 --> 00:07:26.639 especially nineteenth century that you know, it was always to 149 00:07:27.079 --> 00:07:28.240 find the next frontier. 150 00:07:28.279 --> 00:07:31.279 American acceptionism and all that talk about. 151 00:07:31.079 --> 00:07:34.040 What what does the frontier mean as a concept in 152 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:35.360 American mythology. 153 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:39.720 Well, I think the easy place to start is to 154 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:42.680 point out that for three or four generations, historians thought 155 00:07:42.720 --> 00:07:44.839 the frontier was a real thing that they were talking 156 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:50.920 about as a historical artifact. But when the nineteen sixties 157 00:07:50.959 --> 00:07:54.519 were older around and people stopped thinking about history as 158 00:07:54.560 --> 00:07:57.839 the history of white men only, we came to the 159 00:07:57.879 --> 00:08:01.279 conclusion pretty quickly that our notion of the frontier was 160 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:04.480 highly flawed. Not in terms of the frontier is bad, 161 00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:10.079 in terms of that's bad history, that's bad history of writing. So, 162 00:08:10.600 --> 00:08:13.680 because I'm an academic, I have come with quotes. Here's 163 00:08:13.720 --> 00:08:19.000 the quote you need. There was a So America history 164 00:08:19.879 --> 00:08:24.199 as a nation doesn't really have universities with history professors 165 00:08:24.199 --> 00:08:26.720 and so like the eighteen eighties. But most of the 166 00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:29.439 disciplines we think of our eighteen eighties to nineteen ten. 167 00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:35.600 My field of anthropology is basically nineteen ten history. The 168 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:40.960 first American Historical Association meeting is like eighteen eighty four, 169 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:48.279 maybe so before the American Historical Association is even ten 170 00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:51.759 years old. A historian from Wisconsin named p. Jackson Turner. 171 00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:54.840 There's this stunningly important paper that we have been reading 172 00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:57.480 over and over and over again, even though we know 173 00:08:57.559 --> 00:09:02.039 he's wrong. And here it's called the Significance of the 174 00:09:02.039 --> 00:09:05.120 Frontier in American History, And the famous quote which I 175 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:07.919 can almost do from memory, but I'm going to read 176 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:12.399 just to be safe. Is up until our own day, 177 00:09:12.440 --> 00:09:15.279 American history has been in a large degree the history 178 00:09:15.279 --> 00:09:16.440 of the colonization of. 179 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:17.200 The Great West. 180 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:17.919 Year. 181 00:09:17.960 --> 00:09:21.039 It is the existence of an area of free land. 182 00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:25.799 It's continuous recession and the advance of American settlement westward. 183 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:33.600 Explain American development. That's eighteen ninety three in Chicago. We 184 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:36.559 can take it apart right at free Land. There was 185 00:09:36.559 --> 00:09:44.480 nobody there free land. It's this continuing colonization of this 186 00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:49.519 free land from the time of the Mayflower to eighteen 187 00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:52.919 ninety three. And one of the things that Frederick Jackson 188 00:09:52.919 --> 00:09:56.039 Turner says in this eighteen ninety three talk is but 189 00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:57.960 the frontier's gone now, and we've got to figure out 190 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:02.080 something else, because according to the Census Bureau, the frontier 191 00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:05.639 is done. Within six years of that we're having the 192 00:10:05.639 --> 00:10:10.000 Spanish American War looking for the next frontier. So this 193 00:10:10.840 --> 00:10:14.080 Frederick Acksonfroner was really good at doing something that academics 194 00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:16.399 like to do, used to like to do, and that 195 00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:20.360 was sending out reprints. So he did this talk, he 196 00:10:20.679 --> 00:10:23.559 published it, and he sent out hundreds of copies of 197 00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:26.240 it to important people throughout the United States, and people 198 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:28.000 got excited to get shitped like that in the mail. 199 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:31.200 Excuse me, stuff like that in the mail. You know, 200 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:34.919 Oh my god, a historian form Wisconsin really has an 201 00:10:34.960 --> 00:10:39.559 idea and he sent it to me. And if there's 202 00:10:40.279 --> 00:10:43.080 there's maybe one or two people that invent the idea 203 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:45.519 of professional historians in the United States, and this is 204 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:48.799 one of the guys. He's the guy who gets paid 205 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:51.080 to be a historian by a university where he only 206 00:10:51.159 --> 00:10:54.000 teaches history. He was trained to be a historian, and 207 00:10:54.039 --> 00:10:57.120 that's what he does. And at the time he sounds 208 00:10:57.159 --> 00:11:00.480 like a social scientist. Today he sounds like a method grapher. 209 00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:05.840 At the time he sounded like a political historian. Today 210 00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:08.240 he sounds like somebody who's explaining how the myth and 211 00:11:08.279 --> 00:11:11.440 the Frontier worked. And he did a really great job 212 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:13.879 at that. And the Frontier has been with us ever since. 213 00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:18.919 Between his talk and the New Deal, we're worried about 214 00:11:18.919 --> 00:11:20.440 the next frontier. By the time we get to the 215 00:11:20.519 --> 00:11:24.200 nineteen sixties with Kennedy, we have the new Frontier. Alaska's 216 00:11:24.200 --> 00:11:27.279 made a state and its its slogan is the Last Frontier. 217 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:30.120 And I think star Trek has some kind of frontier 218 00:11:30.159 --> 00:11:32.919 as well, and there's stuff after and there's stuff after 219 00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:37.279 that too, So the frontier has been this thing that 220 00:11:37.320 --> 00:11:38.879 we cannot get away from. 221 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:42.360 And to hear you say that, I can see what 222 00:11:42.360 --> 00:11:46.399 to mean about how it is such a dangerous part 223 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:48.600 of the American kind of mythology. You know, it's up 224 00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:51.240 there with the like pulled up by your own bootstraps 225 00:11:51.320 --> 00:11:54.720 of you know, as Americans, it's our job not only 226 00:11:54.759 --> 00:11:59.440 to continually conquer the new frontier, to bring the American 227 00:11:59.480 --> 00:12:03.200 goodness to the West, and then going to the Spanish 228 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:05.399 lands and then going you know, you can see how 229 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:09.159 it's just again and again been a thing. Paul Is 230 00:12:09.159 --> 00:12:12.600 just you mentioned the Turner episode the essay, and I 231 00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:13.600 was going to hopefully. 232 00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:14.320 Show off by mentioning it. 233 00:12:14.360 --> 00:12:16.679 I remember reading that in history class, so it's one 234 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:18.519 of the only things I can remember from American history. 235 00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:19.480 And the fact that. 236 00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:21.759 The fact that you've read it is problematic because we 237 00:12:21.759 --> 00:12:24.480 stopped making students read it in a like nineteen sixty. 238 00:12:25.240 --> 00:12:26.879 So so I want to go. 239 00:12:26.919 --> 00:12:29.159 I want to go find your guy and tell her 240 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:30.799 and that this was this. 241 00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:31.480 Was a mistake. 242 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:36.279 But anyway, unlus it was read within a context that 243 00:12:36.440 --> 00:12:39.360 was like aware of yes, which is possible. 244 00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:41.960 Yeah, yeah, there was a. 245 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:45.159 Kind of historiography aspect to it. But yeah, Jeffrey Gunn, 246 00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:48.200 if you're listening, I have some questions. Have been an 247 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:50.720 essay I wrote on a mid term and now another 248 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:54.399 professor is backing me up. So yeah, Paul, what for you, like, 249 00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:56.840 do you have memories this kind of idea of the 250 00:12:56.879 --> 00:12:58.960 frontier just kind of think something you've thought about in 251 00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:02.879 general and your many praises of America that I know 252 00:13:02.919 --> 00:13:03.559 you're so fond of. 253 00:13:03.799 --> 00:13:08.759 Yeah, yeah, I would say that, you know, for all 254 00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:14.120 the failings of the education system that. 255 00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:20.559 You know, I was incarcerated in for my youth, I 256 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:26.000 think that actually the first school that I went to 257 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:32.080 Bank Street from like age five until thirteen or fourteen, 258 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:36.679 I think did a good job of being like, no, 259 00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:39.799 there were native people here, and first you're going to 260 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:43.440 learn about that, and then you're going to learn about 261 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:46.200 you know, people showing up from the Netherlands and then 262 00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:48.159 people showing up from England and et cetera, et cetera, 263 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:53.080 et cetera. And I do feel like I was not 264 00:13:53.399 --> 00:13:57.159 taught this like idea of the frontier being this like 265 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:01.360 great thing and like America can progress and all that, 266 00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:03.720 I do you know, the complaints that I have or 267 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:07.279 that I think a lot of the way all this 268 00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:11.200 was taught was like and that's what happened in the past, 269 00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:14.559 and now everything's much much better. You know, we've we've 270 00:14:14.600 --> 00:14:17.679 totally solved all these problems. And you know, like the 271 00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:20.200 idea like racism is in the past or the South, 272 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:23.120 like you know that that I'd say, like they let 273 00:14:23.200 --> 00:14:26.159 us down on you know, But but I did feel 274 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:32.360 like there was there was some idea of you know, 275 00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:38.080 the frontier being an idea and not like sort of 276 00:14:38.120 --> 00:14:41.559 like this great thing that happened and was conquered, you know, 277 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:44.120 like how how the West was won, like that this 278 00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:47.840 was like some victory, right. I think it was like 279 00:14:47.879 --> 00:14:50.720 even from a young age, I feel like I was 280 00:14:51.080 --> 00:14:53.759 you know, told that it's like that this wasn't a 281 00:14:53.799 --> 00:14:58.200 great thing that you know that America did and and 282 00:14:58.279 --> 00:15:02.879 I appreciate that, you know, and I you know, obviously 283 00:15:02.919 --> 00:15:04.639 I think we can probably still do better. 284 00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:08.639 But that's it's interesting. 285 00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:10.720 You know, you're talking about space and you know space, 286 00:15:10.799 --> 00:15:14.840 the final Frontier and all that, like space actually there 287 00:15:15.879 --> 00:15:17.919 you know, the word kind of says a lot of it, 288 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:21.639 like there there actually is space out there, right, there 289 00:15:21.679 --> 00:15:27.399 are many, many, many uninhabited planets. Earth is inhabited, It 290 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:28.919 has been inhabited. 291 00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:30.519 All over for a very long time. 292 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:33.399 And so the idea of this frontier, it's like there 293 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:37.320 were people there, right, There's animals there, like there were 294 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:42.240 trees like and all of which you know, many got 295 00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:47.240 got killed, right, Whereas the idea of something like colonizing Mars, 296 00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:50.679 for instance, it's like, well, maybe just everyone should move 297 00:15:50.679 --> 00:15:51.120 to Mars. 298 00:15:51.159 --> 00:15:53.519 Like it's like there's there's I mean, as far as. 299 00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:56.919 We know, there's not life there, right, So if you 300 00:15:57.000 --> 00:16:00.720 were to go to that frontier, you know, into space, 301 00:16:01.279 --> 00:16:04.320 granted at some point I think you probably would run 302 00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:07.159 into some form of life, and probably some form of 303 00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:11.360 intelligent life that maybe wouldn't regard humans as particularly intelligent life. 304 00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:14.639 I don't know, but like space is more of a 305 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:19.000 it fits that mythology more than the reality fit that mythology, 306 00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:22.759 I think, perhaps not within the context of Star Trek, 307 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:26.559 where there's all these different you know, species and everything, 308 00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:29.759 and tons of planets are inhabited as far as we know, 309 00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:32.840 it's like there's you know, there is actual space in 310 00:16:32.919 --> 00:16:35.080 space and like you could go there and not be 311 00:16:35.480 --> 00:16:37.159 stepping on people who live there already. 312 00:16:39.320 --> 00:16:42.399 The meme I keep getting is the how you know, 313 00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:45.519 Star Trek was written by white guys and it's going 314 00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:48.120 where no one was going before, and there's always people there. 315 00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:52.679 Yeah, I think that that's kind of what I was 316 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:54.639 going to say, is that, Yeah, you're right, like actual 317 00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:57.879 space would make sense for this frontier mythology. One of 318 00:16:57.879 --> 00:16:59.519 the things I think is that I think we define 319 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:02.600 can talk about is it in Star Trek it feels 320 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:06.559 very much that same idea of the undiscovered Country, which 321 00:17:06.599 --> 00:17:08.119 is the name of actually one of the better Star 322 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:11.960 Trek movies. But still is it always refers to the 323 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:14.759 thing that hasn't been discovered by us, right right, you know, 324 00:17:14.839 --> 00:17:16.759 And in the same way, it feels like for the Frontier, 325 00:17:16.839 --> 00:17:20.279 it's that we the white man, have not gone there yet. 326 00:17:20.359 --> 00:17:22.519 And I'm I think he's a lot of truth to that, 327 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:24.079 and so that's probably a good way to jump into 328 00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:27.559 the Star Trek part of it. And actually I'll start 329 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:29.319 here with you, Paul, because I think you have not 330 00:17:29.480 --> 00:17:30.519 watched much Star Trek. 331 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:30.880 Correct. 332 00:17:31.160 --> 00:17:35.200 Yeah, I've seen maybe like five to eight of the 333 00:17:35.240 --> 00:17:39.599 movies of different eras, and then I've seen some episodes 334 00:17:39.680 --> 00:17:43.079 here and there of various different shows and like halves 335 00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:45.680 of a bunch of episodes, but I haven't like sat 336 00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:49.160 down and watched a whole series of the television or 337 00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:50.160 like all the movies in. 338 00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:52.119 Order, right, So, which is good. 339 00:17:52.119 --> 00:17:54.039 I always like having someone who doesn't necessarily know the 340 00:17:54.079 --> 00:17:56.000 source material we're talking about it as much just to 341 00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:59.599 kind of bring in that perspective in the conversation. So 342 00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:02.039 for you, when I when I mentioned that the idea 343 00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:04.240 that we're talking about of like Star Trek and the Frontier, 344 00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:06.559 what comes to mind to you about like that, what 345 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:09.200 that entails and what Star Trek and Frontiers have to 346 00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:09.759 do with each other? 347 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:12.400 Yeah, I mean it seems to me like it is 348 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:16.079 kind of an allegory for the mythology of the West, 349 00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:19.480 and it is about you know, as far as I 350 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:23.440 can tell, it's about the enterprise going out and stumbling 351 00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:28.119 upon different cultures that are already there and then not interfering, 352 00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:30.200 but interfering but like I don't know, they have some 353 00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:36.799 directives and it seems to me like, yeah, it's not 354 00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:39.599 a bunch of just like open space really right, It's 355 00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:44.079 like there's a lot out there, and then you know, 356 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:47.920 there's wars, or there's arguments and various different things. And 357 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:53.440 I do feel like it probably is a show. 358 00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:56.480 And movies or whatever however you want to describe it. 359 00:18:57.319 --> 00:19:01.279 A universe that would probably appeal to a lot of 360 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:04.839 my sensibilities, perhaps more than like Star Wars does. But 361 00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:08.960 it doesn't have laser swords, so you know, it just 362 00:19:10.039 --> 00:19:14.160 I don't know, I never super grabbed onto it. But 363 00:19:14.599 --> 00:19:18.279 the idea of I mean, the idea of frontiers, like 364 00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:20.759 it's perspective. 365 00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:24.359 Right, like it's it's it doesn't have to be just 366 00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:25.119 like white men. 367 00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:27.680 It could be like the Klingons could have what they 368 00:19:27.720 --> 00:19:31.440 regarded as a frontier. And I mean, I think is 369 00:19:31.480 --> 00:19:34.200 there something in the Star Wars, I mean the Star 370 00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:37.000 Trek like I don't know if you call it mythology, 371 00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:41.200 but of like that a bunch of other species were 372 00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:43.759 aware of humanity but was sort of like, no, we'll 373 00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:46.960 just leave them alone because like they're not quite like 374 00:19:47.079 --> 00:19:54.480 ready to interact with other like other cultures and species. 375 00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:58.559 Yet is that a thing in one of them? Somewhere? 376 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:01.960 There are a couple of episodes that play with that, 377 00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:06.319 but they never really folded into the overarching story very much, 378 00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:10.359 but like, here's a massively superior alien intelligence who's like, 379 00:20:10.519 --> 00:20:12.240 maybe when you're ready, we'll talk to you. 380 00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:15.880 Right, Yeah, there's a small version of it in that 381 00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:19.799 the Vulcans. The Vulcans have an idea of they don't 382 00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:24.279 want to contact anybody until they become warp capable, and 383 00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:25.920 so that's why one of the movies is all about 384 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:29.359 them becoming warp capable in a way that the Vulcans 385 00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:32.839 will notice, and then once the Federation is around, that's 386 00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:36.799 kind of their their bar of until you become capable 387 00:20:36.839 --> 00:20:40.000 of warp speed, you're not on our level, and so 388 00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:42.119 we're going to see you as like and it's framed 389 00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:43.759 in a very like we're going to protect you kind 390 00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:46.200 of a way, but it's very much a kind of 391 00:20:46.279 --> 00:20:50.039 like noble savage, you're the primitive, You're not worthy of 392 00:20:50.039 --> 00:20:52.920 our attention. But therefore also like, oh that media is 393 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:55.920 going to crash into your planet, well, prime directive, we 394 00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:02.759 shouldn't interfere, so things like that. So so Matthew talks 395 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:06.440 about what you like when I hear Frontier, Like, there's 396 00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:08.279 a lot of thoughts I come up with, but for you, 397 00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:08.839 what does it mean? 398 00:21:08.839 --> 00:21:10.799 I kind of look at these two things together. 399 00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:14.119 Okay, so I'm going to say like two things because 400 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:16.640 Paul had this really good point. Maybe the Klingons have 401 00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:20.799