WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:08.119 I'm Ali. I came out after twenty years of marriage 2 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:09.199 and I have three kids. 3 00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:12.400 I'm Melissa and I have two kids, and I came 4 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:14.960 out at thirty seven after an eleven year marriage. 5 00:00:15.400 --> 00:00:19.280 This podcast is about coming out later and the struggles 6 00:00:19.320 --> 00:00:20.679 and victories that come with it. 7 00:00:21.199 --> 00:00:22.960 When coming out feels like the end of the world, 8 00:00:23.320 --> 00:00:24.960 but it's really just the beginning. 9 00:00:25.679 --> 00:00:38.399 This is the Lesbian Chronicles. Welcome to the Lesbian Chronicles. 10 00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:40.799 Did you see how I waited perfectly till the countdow 11 00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:41.439 it was finished? 12 00:00:41.719 --> 00:00:43.560 And it's funny because You'm like, I don't want to 13 00:00:43.560 --> 00:00:46.159 look like an asshole or an idiot, Like those are 14 00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:48.719 very different specters there. 15 00:00:48.840 --> 00:00:50.759 I think I'm used to looking like an asshole, not 16 00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:53.119 an idiot, and in this case, I look like an idiot. 17 00:00:53.280 --> 00:00:55.200 But the truth is, if if someone said to me, 18 00:00:55.560 --> 00:00:58.200 who is the person that you care the least about 19 00:00:58.240 --> 00:01:01.960 looking like an idiot? I would say, well, SERENI, it's 20 00:01:02.200 --> 00:01:04.120 very true because I'm the safest. 21 00:01:04.760 --> 00:01:05.000 You know. 22 00:01:05.400 --> 00:01:08.159 I went to uh Florida the past week with my 23 00:01:08.280 --> 00:01:10.480 kids and we went to Dave and Buster's for two 24 00:01:10.560 --> 00:01:11.560 days in a row. 25 00:01:12.120 --> 00:01:15.439 I got too many credits, hilarious. 26 00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:17.400 I don't know what I was thinking. But basically I 27 00:01:17.439 --> 00:01:19.680 was like, I'm not leaving here without using all of these. 28 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:21.879 So we did my two dollars. 29 00:01:21.959 --> 00:01:24.879 Yeah, we did every game in that place, and I 30 00:01:24.879 --> 00:01:27.920 mean I'm talking, I'm shooting baskets, I'm doing like the 31 00:01:28.519 --> 00:01:30.920 throw the thing at the milk bottles, the ring toss, 32 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:33.439 like we even did this like interactive game where you 33 00:01:33.480 --> 00:01:35.599 have to like run around and like hit these boxes 34 00:01:35.599 --> 00:01:36.239 that light up. 35 00:01:36.359 --> 00:01:38.959 Like I definitely you were there like an idiot. 36 00:01:39.319 --> 00:01:40.640 It's another reason why. 37 00:01:40.879 --> 00:01:43.680 Oh yep, it's another reason why I know though that 38 00:01:43.760 --> 00:01:46.239 you and I are different, because I said to you 39 00:01:46.280 --> 00:01:47.799 when you told me you were going back there, I'm like, 40 00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:50.599 you're so good as a mom, because like you will 41 00:01:50.599 --> 00:01:52.719 get out there. I would literally be like, you, guys, 42 00:01:52.799 --> 00:01:54.959 let's make it quick. I'm gonna be over here at 43 00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:57.879 the table on my phone, like no pho. 44 00:01:58.359 --> 00:02:00.200 I was like, way into the idea. 45 00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:02.519 It was either that or go to the Ripley's Believe 46 00:02:02.519 --> 00:02:05.200 It or Not Museum, which I was also very excited about, 47 00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:06.079 but they chose. 48 00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:09.800 So of course, I'm just a big kid. 49 00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:12.800 So well, I'm excited that you're coming into town. 50 00:02:13.400 --> 00:02:16.080 I know we're gonna have some dinner with some friends 51 00:02:16.120 --> 00:02:20.000 from Austin and yes, yeah it should be a good night. 52 00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:22.879 Yeah, I'm excited. You know though, that I'm dinner's at 53 00:02:22.879 --> 00:02:23.520 five o'clock. 54 00:02:23.960 --> 00:02:26.520 I yeah, I actually just had that in mind as 55 00:02:26.520 --> 00:02:29.479 I made my late breakfast, I was like, this is 56 00:02:29.520 --> 00:02:35.080 it until dinner Early birteen Early bird Special. 57 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:37.879 It's because I'm leaving to go out of town and 58 00:02:37.879 --> 00:02:40.800 i feel like there's somebody dog sitting at my house 59 00:02:41.319 --> 00:02:45.599 which requires me to clean a bunch and like make that, 60 00:02:45.800 --> 00:02:47.719 change all the sheets, and so I'm like, I've got 61 00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:50.560 I feel like I need to be home earlier. I 62 00:02:50.599 --> 00:02:56.080 hear you anyway, but I am superstoked about our guests today. 63 00:02:56.520 --> 00:02:57.639 Who if you guys have. 64 00:02:57.680 --> 00:03:00.319 Listened for a long time, we had Mallory Handful on 65 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:06.080 our show. Who is now doctor Mallorie Handfling? Ye, congratulations 66 00:03:06.199 --> 00:03:08.800 and welcome to the show. Mallorie. We're so excited. 67 00:03:09.360 --> 00:03:11.759 Thank you so much. I'm delighted to be here again. 68 00:03:12.719 --> 00:03:15.159 Good. Well tell it, Like, first of all, the topic 69 00:03:15.319 --> 00:03:17.680 that you were studying is something I had never even 70 00:03:17.800 --> 00:03:20.840 heard of until Melissa told me about it, and then 71 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:23.639 it clicked in me like well, duh, yeah, that's got 72 00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:26.039 to be a thing, and then around that time that 73 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:29.520 Melissa was talking about it, you showed up and you 74 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:31.400 were doing a whole research study on it, and a 75 00:03:31.439 --> 00:03:35.479 lot of our listeners like knew about your study. So anyway, 76 00:03:35.599 --> 00:03:36.840 tell us a little bit about it. 77 00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:41.400 Yeah, So my study is called the Firefly Study. So 78 00:03:41.479 --> 00:03:44.879 I coined a term called firefly as an alternative to 79 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:47.039 late in life lesbian. I wanted something that was more 80 00:03:47.080 --> 00:03:51.319 gender and sexuality inclusive and expansive for folks at who like, 81 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:53.280 have gone into a marriage and then realize that they're 82 00:03:53.719 --> 00:03:57.039 either not as straight as they thought that they were, 83 00:03:57.280 --> 00:03:59.479 or that their gender shifts over time, or that they 84 00:03:59.479 --> 00:04:02.159 realized something knew about their gender. And so late in 85 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:05.199 life lesbian is a little bit alienating for some folks 86 00:04:05.199 --> 00:04:07.360 because not everybody's a lesbian, not everybody's a woman. But 87 00:04:07.400 --> 00:04:10.159 they shared that experience. And so, like the insect of 88 00:04:10.199 --> 00:04:13.000 firefly spends most of their lives underground, they go through 89 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:15.800 a metamorphosis, and when they emerge their most authentic self, 90 00:04:15.800 --> 00:04:18.439 they glow and they bring joy to others. So that's 91 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:23.040 the backstory above firefly. And so this is the Firefly Study. 92 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:27.279 And basically I wanted to know how and why that happens. 93 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:30.120 We're seeing a lot more of it. We're seeing celebrities 94 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:32.839 coming out later in life. We've got Sophia Bush, We've 95 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:37.759 got that woman from Pitch Perfect. We've got all kinds 96 00:04:37.800 --> 00:04:41.279 of like great representation which we didn't have before. And 97 00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:44.360 I was really curious about like why this is suddenly 98 00:04:44.439 --> 00:04:46.800 more visible and also like why it happens at all. 99 00:04:47.319 --> 00:04:51.680 And so I wanted to explore what's called compulsory heterosexuality 100 00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:55.759 basically straight until proven otherwise, and that's essentially how our 101 00:04:55.839 --> 00:05:02.920 culture works. It comes from some religious dogma in terms 102 00:05:02.959 --> 00:05:06.480 of like marriages between a man and a woman, and 103 00:05:06.519 --> 00:05:09.160 then all of the privileges that are associated with marriage, 104 00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:14.439 like things like insurance and mortgages, and you know, just 105 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:16.959 general safety and security in the world and all of that. 106 00:05:17.800 --> 00:05:21.800 And so compulsory heterosexuality is the idea that, like there 107 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:25.560 are these cultural influences that kind of steer people in 108 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:31.160 a certain direction towards heterosexual partnerships. There's kind of three 109 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:36.199 components of it. It's a lack of representation, a privileging 110 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:40.279 of heterosexual identity, and then a dismissal of same sex 111 00:05:40.399 --> 00:05:45.199 experiences as being valid. And so if those things didn't exist. 112 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:48.040 Adrian Rich, who coined the term in nineteen eighty, wants 113 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:52.319 to know would that even be a thing? Would would 114 00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:58.360 women choose men at all? My theory is probably not agree, 115 00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:03.480 But also you know, just how influential is is how 116 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:06.519 much is it pushing people towards certain lifestyles? And then 117 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:09.560 I also wanted to know what helps with that, because 118 00:06:09.560 --> 00:06:11.839 if that's a real thing that we're dealing with, then 119 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:15.279 like what's the antidote to it? And my inkling was 120 00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:18.000 that it was community. It's the representation, it's the hearing 121 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:20.879 the stories that are just like ours, the normalization and 122 00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:23.800 validation of that. And so that's what the Firefly Study 123 00:06:23.959 --> 00:06:28.199 is and continues to be. And I have a lot 124 00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:30.439 of cool findings to share with you all from my 125 00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:34.360 twenty one semi structured qualitative interviews. 126 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:36.680 I love I love this, I know and it is 127 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:38.720 so true. Like Melissa and I have talked about, like 128 00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:41.680 I think somebody even said to your daughter, Melissa, like 129 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:43.920 they're going to be boyfriend and girlfriend when she was 130 00:06:43.959 --> 00:06:46.439 really little. I remember telling a story and you were 131 00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:50.240 kind of like, it is just pushed on you from 132 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:51.120 four years old. 133 00:06:51.839 --> 00:06:54.680 Yeah, where's your friend? Where's your girlfriend? 134 00:06:54.879 --> 00:06:55.399 Yeah? Friend. 135 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:57.240 I was friends with a lot of boys growing up, 136 00:06:57.279 --> 00:07:00.639 and every time it was reference that that was my boyfriend. Yeah, 137 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:03.800 And I'm like, I'm three, you know, I'm four years old. Like, 138 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:08.240 how is that already sexualized and placed on you too? 139 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:10.839 I remember even thinking that in my coming up process 140 00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:13.199 of thinking like, oh, well, I've I had boyfriends all 141 00:07:13.199 --> 00:07:16.439 this time. I can't be gay, like I decided in 142 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:17.160 the third grade. 143 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:22.319 Yeah, now look at me now, I do wonder too, 144 00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:25.240 like the reverse, Like the way that I raised I 145 00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:26.839 did some of that, for sure. 146 00:07:26.920 --> 00:07:28.839 You can't help it. You're in a culture of doing it. 147 00:07:28.879 --> 00:07:31.240 And I was married to a man. But my son 148 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:34.519 is gay, and from when he was little he had 149 00:07:34.519 --> 00:07:37.639 an older sister, so he ended up being sort of 150 00:07:38.600 --> 00:07:41.000 in our home. At least he did dress up with her. 151 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:44.639 He did. There was no rules around what he was 152 00:07:44.680 --> 00:07:47.279 allowed to do, and he had a lot of representation 153 00:07:47.399 --> 00:07:49.560 because he just lived in a very liberal area. We 154 00:07:49.600 --> 00:07:52.519 saw a lot of gay people. And he did come 155 00:07:52.560 --> 00:07:55.319 out at like seven or eight. He was just like 156 00:07:55.399 --> 00:07:58.759 I like boys and I'm going to marry Jonathan. And 157 00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:01.720 it just I wonder how many more people would to 158 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:05.040 your point end up, like, oh, in if there was 159 00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:09.079 no stigma at all to who you pick, you just 160 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:10.319 pick who you want to kiss. 161 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:13.079 That was one of my research questions. 162 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:17.800 Okay, yeah, tell us, like, let's get into that research here. 163 00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:20.240 Yeah, well, how cool, Like it sounds like own's a 164 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:23.399 great kid and I wish him and Jonathan all the best. 165 00:08:26.199 --> 00:08:28.439 And that was one of my questions that I asked 166 00:08:28.439 --> 00:08:31.160 my participants was, like, tell me about your understanding about 167 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:35.240 your gender and your sexuality in childhood. Did you have 168 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:40.039 really intense friendships that, in hindsight were actually like crushes. 169 00:08:40.039 --> 00:08:42.080 Were you actually in love with these people? Did you 170 00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:45.360 feel like you could explore these did you like things? 171 00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:47.120 Did you have questions that you felt like you had 172 00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:49.000 to keep to yourself or were you able to ask 173 00:08:49.039 --> 00:08:53.759 it to adults in your life that felt safe. And 174 00:08:53.799 --> 00:08:57.000 so the feedback that I got from that was no, 175 00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:00.440 like they were just really intense friendships, and they didn't 176 00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:04.039 understand why they had these like massive blow up breakups, 177 00:09:04.919 --> 00:09:06.960 and it was because they were heartbroken. They were hurt, 178 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:10.120 and they like kind of were reconciling the fact that 179 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:13.720 like they didn't live in a world that they created, 180 00:09:14.120 --> 00:09:16.360 you know, because of the adults in their lives that 181 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:18.879 that made sense that there was room for it. A 182 00:09:18.919 --> 00:09:22.039 lot of like prescribed gender roles, so like sexual scripts 183 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:25.120 played a big role in the stories of my fireflies. 184 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:30.000 They knew they were told how to be a good girl, 185 00:09:30.039 --> 00:09:32.360 a good woman, They were told how to be a 186 00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:36.279 good whatever gender they were assigned at birth, and they 187 00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:39.039 didn't want to deviate from that because they were worried 188 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:44.279 about social ostracization. They were worried about, you know, the 189 00:09:44.279 --> 00:09:49.279 alienation of it. And so you know, like that prescription 190 00:09:49.399 --> 00:09:51.759 of like, well you're a girl, so you're gonna have 191 00:09:51.799 --> 00:09:53.639 curls in your hair and barettes and you're going to 192 00:09:53.720 --> 00:09:55.879 be like dolled up. And so one of the chapters 193 00:09:55.879 --> 00:09:59.720 of my dissertation is called Kukla, which is from my participant, 194 00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:02.039 Chris Still. And all of my names are are pseudonyms. 195 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:07.240 So Crystal said that her grandmother, who is like very 196 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:11.159 like old school traditional Greek, would live with them and 197 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:14.000 make her dresses and like put her hair in curls 198 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:15.519 and like call her Kupla, and she was like the 199 00:10:15.559 --> 00:10:20.000 little doll. And so that actually that idea of like 200 00:10:20.279 --> 00:10:24.519 little girls being dolls is pervasive because they become playthings 201 00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:28.120 they become something that you can play with and enjoy 202 00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:31.039 and is there to delight as opposed to being autonomous 203 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:37.480 within themselves, and they internalize we internalize that script into 204 00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:41.039 when we get into adolescents and puberty and sexual scripts 205 00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:44.200 and how we perform in those and when the compulsory 206 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:47.320 head our sexuality enters the picture and is telling us 207 00:10:47.320 --> 00:10:49.759 that we're supposed to be with a man or a 208 00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:52.600 boy or whatever it is, and we have this internalized 209 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:54.960 idea that like, okay, well, this is how girls behave 210 00:10:55.080 --> 00:10:56.159 in sexual situations. 211 00:10:56.159 --> 00:10:57.919 We're dolly. 212 00:10:59.080 --> 00:11:02.080 And so I saw a lot of that, a lot 213 00:11:02.120 --> 00:11:04.240 of sexual experiences that they felt like they should be 214 00:11:04.320 --> 00:11:09.320 having because it was normalized, you know, locker room talk 215 00:11:09.399 --> 00:11:11.759 talk that you'd have with your girlfriends at sleepovers and 216 00:11:11.799 --> 00:11:14.360 things like that. And then also like a lot of 217 00:11:14.360 --> 00:11:18.600 my participants had sexual experiences with their friends because of 218 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:20.639 course they did, like that's how girls learn, and like 219 00:11:21.320 --> 00:11:24.159 not all girls, some girls aren't curious in that way, 220 00:11:25.399 --> 00:11:27.679 but it gets normalized, right, it's part of the scripts 221 00:11:27.720 --> 00:11:30.440 that we're told about, like how that's okay, And that's 222 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:33.320 that part of compulsory head sexuality. That's the dismissal of 223 00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:36.000 the same sex relationships or experiences is being valid. 224 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:39.559 I think, like to that thing about the grandma, it's 225 00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:43.720 like it's also it's so pervasive that the grandma actually 226 00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:47.200 thinks she's being so loving. Mm hmm, like to her, 227 00:11:47.399 --> 00:11:50.279 that's a showing love. She is such a tertal doll. 228 00:11:50.600 --> 00:11:53.759 I'm gonna yeah, I'm gonna dress you up. She's complicit 229 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:59.639 but innocent. Yeah, because it's like that pervasive yep. 230 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:03.759 And my participant Nancy was like I was the youngest 231 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:05.679 of a whole bunch of kids and neighborhood kids, and 232 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:07.759 I was always the one that was like dressed up 233 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:10.360 like a doll. And I was there their little toy. 234 00:12:10.519 --> 00:12:12.159 I was there things that they could play with and 235 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:14.840 make how they thought I was supposed to be. 236 00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:15.679 Yeah. 237 00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:19.159 Also in the meantime, they're like getting positive reinforcement from 238 00:12:19.159 --> 00:12:19.559 that too. 239 00:12:19.639 --> 00:12:21.960 The attention is prodded them, like. 240 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:26.919 You're so cute the community. So I had this participant, Camille, 241 00:12:27.080 --> 00:12:30.639 who is a listener, so I'm excited that she will 242 00:12:30.679 --> 00:12:33.399 hopefully hear this and I want to thank you for 243 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:38.919 your story. But shared that she engaged in this play 244 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:43.360 with the neighborhood children because she just wanted to fit in. 245 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:46.000 She just wanted to be able to play, and that 246 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:49.279 came at the expense of her bodily autonomy. And like 247 00:12:49.320 --> 00:12:54.240 she engaged in things that probably in hindsight felt wrong 248 00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:58.080 and off for her. Yeah, but she wanted to be 249 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:01.000 included more than she wanted to protect your bodily autonomy. 250 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:04.360 And that's also a script that is reinforced by our 251 00:13:04.399 --> 00:13:08.240 society by the way that we are told girls women 252 00:13:08.279 --> 00:13:11.159 should behave So continia is everything. 253 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:14.639 It's such a precarious time too in their development that 254 00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:17.559 it's like it's so formative in that time period. So 255 00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:21.840 being the doll or in Camille's case, just this, they 256 00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:24.200 dressed her up, they did all these things. It's like 257 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:27.679 that time period of your life, there's so much happening. 258 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:31.000 So it's just beyond I mean, I think I grew 259 00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:34.960 probably more in that timeframe than now. Well, So it's 260 00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:37.639 just all that stuff is so internalized. 261 00:13:38.120 --> 00:13:40.200 And on top of that, Malory you can probably speak 262 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:42.759 to this is like all those things are happening to 263 00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:45.919 you as a child, but you're not processing them, like 264 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:49.320 you're not thinking about like the bigger picture of what's happening. 265 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:52.960 Like there's such a little processing happening, and you're in 266 00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:54.879 your brain at that time, so it's just kind of 267 00:13:54.919 --> 00:13:58.120 like these things happen and then you move along. But 268 00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:01.799 then you know later as we know, that gets like 269 00:14:01.879 --> 00:14:04.279 way way heavier and you can't ignore it anymore. 270 00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:09.879 Absolutely so, I participant Eleanor the way, so she didn't 271 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:12.360 actively process it in terms of like connecting it to 272 00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:16.440 the fact that it was like Eleanor's non binary and 273 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:19.440 said that their dearest wish was to never wear a 274 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:23.559 dress again in adulthood, and they would have tantrums every 275 00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:26.320 single time that their mother tried to put them in 276 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:29.919 a dress. And so there was there was an active 277 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:33.240 kind of like reaction in the moment, but it wasn't 278 00:14:33.320 --> 00:14:36.240 processed as like a this feels wrong, this isn't me. 279 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:39.200 It just seemed like, you know, Eleanor was a different 280 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:43.240 difficult child, and she wasn't a difficult child. And Eleanor 281 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:47.240 uses she they pronounce, and she she was just she 282 00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:50.759 just knew that it didn't feel right for her. And similarly, 283 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:52.919 you know, another thing that I saw with my participants 284 00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:56.960 was a lack of representation of non white performance of 285 00:14:57.559 --> 00:15:03.080 gender and sexuality. I had participant Allison, who was mixed 286 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:06.279 Asian is the way that she described herself. And she 287 00:15:06.440 --> 00:15:10.399 was like, I didn't see myself represented in magazines, and 288 00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:12.679 so I wanted to dye my hair blonde, which is 289 00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:14.879 crazy to think about. And I wore like these really 290 00:15:14.919 --> 00:15:19.039 long fike eyelashes and long nails and like hyperfemininity, and 291 00:15:19.240 --> 00:15:20.960 I was trying to figure out who I was. And 292 00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:24.759 then like, also, because I was mixed Asian in a 293 00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:28.240 white community, I didn't want to stand out any more 294 00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:31.840 than I needed to. I wanted to blend into the community. 295 00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:34.120 I wanted to not give anyone a reason to like 296 00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:37.879 not include me. And I think that at that pivotal time, Melissa, 297 00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:41.480 that you're talking about that that inclusion, that buy in 298 00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:45.519 is so important, and especially for non white folks and 299 00:15:45.559 --> 00:15:48.799 non white queer folks, there's a lot of discussion about 300 00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:52.320 how important it is to have representation of different bodies, 301 00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:55.200 different races, different ethnesties, and like all of the ways 302 00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:58.559 that that gets eliminated from the discussion at all, And 303 00:15:58.600 --> 00:15:59.960 so I wanted to make sure that I did know 304 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:02.720 that too, And it happens in adulthood too, Like even 305 00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:05.600 in talking about community with the Firefly study, my black 306 00:16:05.639 --> 00:16:08.600 participants were like, it's really hard to find black lesbian spaces, 307 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:11.120 and I was like, yes, yes, you're right, it is, 308 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:15.120 and you're having a different experience than white participants are. 309 00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:17.679 Yeah, can you actually speak to that a little bit, 310 00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:21.320 because I do feel like there's not as many people 311 00:16:21.399 --> 00:16:23.480 of color that come out later on life. 312 00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:25.639 Did you notice that at all? 313 00:16:26.360 --> 00:16:28.399 Just based on kind of like our listenership and the 314 00:16:28.440 --> 00:16:30.279 people that reach out to us. I feel like it's 315 00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:33.960 maybe it's just because we're white, but like majority of 316 00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:37.000 people who reach out to us are you know, white women. 317 00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:39.879 What did you find with the study? 318 00:16:40.039 --> 00:16:44.399 Yeah, so I originally planned on having like sixteen participants 319 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:48.200 and then they were I think all except for one 320 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:49.879 or two of them were white, and I was like, 321 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:51.720 this is not okay, Like I need to have a 322 00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:54.960 representative sample of like all of the different versions of 323 00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:57.399 the firefly story that I could get. So I ended 324 00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:01.320 up extending my study to twenty one participant because at 325 00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:03.559 that point I felt like, all right, this is going 326 00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:04.960 on for a long time. I need to move forward 327 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:11.400 with this dissertation and I have some adequate representation. One 328 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:15.240 piece of feedback that I got from my black participants 329 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:18.599 was that there's like a veil of Christianity over the 330 00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:26.119 Black community. So there's a lot of like deeply rooted, patriarchal, 331 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:32.240 kind of heteronormative values that come from a religious place 332 00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:38.359 that are kind of self imposed and also like familiarly imposed. 333 00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:43.119 For the black community, there's this extra layer of what 334 00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:45.799 it means to come out and the fear of losing 335 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:50.599 access to your family, to your community, to your religious community, 336 00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:54.240 and like the acceptability or non acceptability of that, and 337 00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:59.079 so oftentimes for black fireflies, it's better to do like 338 00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:02.359 a don't ask, don't tell kind of a situation and 339 00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:04.359 like live your life, but like your family's not going 340 00:18:04.359 --> 00:18:05.799 to know about it or ask about it, and you're 341 00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:07.519 always going to have that roommate that comes to the 342 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:14.319 family functions. But it's absolutely happening. They're just not as 343 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:17.920 vocal about it because it's not as accepted, it's not 344 00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:21.279 as safe. And the way that it was explained to 345 00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:23.799 me is because of that veil of Christianity in the 346 00:18:23.839 --> 00:18:28.839 Black community, that is more influential perhaps for them than 347 00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:32.000 it is for some white fireflies. And that's not to 348 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:36.319 say that there aren't deeply religious white firefly communities as well. 349 00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:39.839 And you know the process that people who grew up 350 00:18:39.880 --> 00:18:43.200 in religious environments need to go through. In fact, eighty 351 00:18:43.240 --> 00:18:48.880 percent of my participants had a deeply religious upbringing. But 352 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:53.759 specifically as we're talking about how it relates to black participants, Yeah, 353 00:18:53.799 --> 00:18:57.759 like that's definitely a big thing. And then like those 354 00:18:57.799 --> 00:19:00.119 really deeply ingrained sexual scripts about what it means to 355 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:01.599 be a man, what it means to be a woman, 356 00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:04.279 and the lack of kind of like flexibility or acceptability 357 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:06.799 around that as well. And they're going through the world 358 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:10.960 differently than white participants are. So I think, you know, 359 00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:13.920 part of part of the PhD is like, well, what's next, 360 00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:15.839 Like why are you doing this? And what happens after this? 361 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:19.119 And I'm not the person to do this, but I 362 00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:25.599 want to help create community with black facilitators or person 363 00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:30.240 of color facilitators to create that space for those individuals 364 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:31.880 who feel like they're missing out on being able to 365 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:33.680 talk about those experiences. 366 00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:37.200 Yeah, that would be great, because I do I have 367 00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:41.960 heard that within like the gay male community, that like 368 00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:44.880 in the black community, that they really feel like they 369 00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:48.799 cannot come out or that they are very closeted. I know, 370 00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:51.680 I love only know black men like that that, yeah, 371 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:53.680 very much have to be on the download and it's 372 00:19:53.720 --> 00:19:57.079 because of the homophobia within the community. And then on 373 00:19:57.160 --> 00:19:59.279 top of that, these men, you know, they're raised to 374 00:19:59.319 --> 00:20:03.920 be tough, and like when that's not happening, they've got 375 00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:05.279 to kind of just hide that. 376 00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:07.839 Part of themselves. It's really I mean, it's tuck sad. 377 00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:11.119 Yeah, it would just start to be a huge problem. 378 00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:13.440 But I was thinking about how there are plenty of 379 00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:18.240 white super religious people, but I think to your point, 380 00:20:18.359 --> 00:20:21.400 it's like we don't. I think in the black community, 381 00:20:21.559 --> 00:20:24.240 likely they feel the sense of, like I need my 382 00:20:24.279 --> 00:20:26.400 community even more because. 383 00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:29.640 Yeah, I'm already on the margins, right, I think you're right, 384 00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:32.720 Like there's such a there's a more of a close 385 00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:36.559 knit sense of community within them than there is with 386 00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:40.480 with white people, you know, and like marginalized, Like yeah, 387 00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:43.039 so they've got to wady together. So yeah, if you're 388 00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:45.960 going to marginalize yourself even more more, where do you go? 389 00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:50.319 Yeah, the work of Shamika Thorpe talks about that a lot. 390 00:20:50.319 --> 00:20:55.599 Doctor Shimika Thorpe. She explains that for black folks, they 391 00:20:55.759 --> 00:20:59.599 are forever and always a representation of the community, like 392 00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:05.359 they can't themselves individually, because anything that they do individually 393 00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:09.440 reflects on the community, especially if it's perceived as othered. 394 00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:13.119 And so to come out in the black community is 395 00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:17.279 like almost like damage points to the black community, and 396 00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:22.240 you're not going to risk that because there's already so 397 00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:25.640 much suffering. There's already so much marginalization and racism and 398 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:31.000 systemic damage and harm caused to black communities, and so 399 00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:36.880 they will choose to not live authentically outwardly, at least 400 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:42.240 for the sake of protecting for their communal sense of responsibility. 401 00:21:42.680 --> 00:21:46.079