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True Murder with your host, 62 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:40.639 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 63 00:02:50.439 --> 00:02:55.960 Good Evening. Chad Spencer Keller, author of Beyond Avery, Road 64 00:02:56.319 --> 00:02:59.639 Vieweding and the Beast, joins us tonight for part two 65 00:02:59.639 --> 00:03:04.439 of his interview alongside Wisconsin Political Insider using the studium 66 00:03:05.159 --> 00:03:09.400 Wan test Crew. Tonight's discussion will detail the recent denial 67 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:13.159 of Stephen Avery's new trial in Manitowa County as they 68 00:03:13.159 --> 00:03:16.120 speak about what happens next from here with defense attorney 69 00:03:16.159 --> 00:03:20.680 Kathleen Zelner going forward, Wan Testcrew and Keller will deliver 70 00:03:20.719 --> 00:03:24.919 evidence as to the importance why I all eyes need 71 00:03:24.960 --> 00:03:28.039 to be diverted to the politics stemming from Avery's two 72 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:31.759 thousand and three exoneration and what was happening in Madison 73 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:36.280 at the State Capitol during Teresa Halbach's alleged death in 74 00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:40.439 two thousand and five. Keller states the case is political, 75 00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:45.280 the deck was stacked. It basically became a bipartisan effort 76 00:03:45.319 --> 00:03:48.919 by both parties that leaves Stephen Avery in the situation 77 00:03:49.159 --> 00:03:52.680 he is in. One test Crew will be vouching for 78 00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:55.639 the severe conflict of interest that Keller presents in his 79 00:03:55.719 --> 00:03:58.800 book and hopes the two can shed light that Stephen 80 00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:02.039 Avery never had a chance to begin with. It takes 81 00:04:02.120 --> 00:04:05.400 us back to the thirty six million dollar question was 82 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:10.360 Stephen Avery framed? Keller also exposes how the electronic monitoring 83 00:04:10.360 --> 00:04:13.919 of juvenile's law could have protected Brendan Dassy and released 84 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:16.079 him the very same month that he was arrested in 85 00:04:16.519 --> 00:04:20.519 for his alleged confession on March first, two thousand and six. 86 00:04:21.399 --> 00:04:25.120 Joining us right now are my very special guest, Chad Spencer, 87 00:04:25.240 --> 00:04:29.399 Keller and Wan test Crew. Can their evidence expose a 88 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:33.519 factual miscarriage of justice inside of the Wisconsin Department of 89 00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:39.519 Justice and free Stephen Avery and Brendan Dassi. The book 90 00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:42.639 they were featuring tonight is Beyond Avery Road, and the 91 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:47.240 story is Stephen Avery Retrial denied. With my special guests 92 00:04:47.319 --> 00:04:51.560 journalist and author Chad Keller and political insider Juan test Crew. 93 00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:54.439 Welcome gentlemen to the program, and thank you very much 94 00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:59.360 for agreeing to this interview. Chad Keller and Juan test. 95 00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:03.639 Crew, thanks for having us on, Dan, thank. 96 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:09.439 You, Thank you very much, gentlemen. In light of the 97 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:14.439 development just yesterday twenty four hours, incredible timing for this program. 98 00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:20.000 Tell us briefly, gentlemen, with you first one, what is 99 00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:23.879 your reaction to the decision? Just tell us for those 100 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:26.360 people that haven't been under a rock for a while, 101 00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:29.000 haven't heard this decision, tell us briefly what the decision 102 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:30.360 is and what is your reaction. 103 00:05:32.199 --> 00:05:36.879 Well, the decision is made by a judge named Angela 104 00:05:37.399 --> 00:05:42.160 Sutkowitz I believe her name is, who is from Sheboygan County, 105 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:44.759 which is the county along the lake south of Manitowoc. 106 00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:48.959 And apparently she's also had some other dealings with Stephen 107 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:52.480 Avery or has said some things, so in theory, she 108 00:05:52.639 --> 00:05:55.240 probably should have recused herself from the case, but didn't. 109 00:05:55.480 --> 00:06:01.319 But essentially what she did was bar herniye Kathleen Zellner's 110 00:06:01.319 --> 00:06:05.680 motion saying that the evidence isn't justified to grant the 111 00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:11.399 new trial. I read her decision, and honestly, you could 112 00:06:11.399 --> 00:06:14.000 pull quite a few holes in it and of itself. 113 00:06:14.040 --> 00:06:17.240 A couple of the things were decisions that, Okay, I 114 00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:20.759 can see where you make the argument, but nothing as 115 00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:23.120 far as I'm concerned to where if I was a 116 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:26.680 jury and that was that was her argument, she wouldn't 117 00:06:26.680 --> 00:06:31.079 win the argument in my opinion. But essentially it is 118 00:06:31.199 --> 00:06:36.560 lower court ruling. It's Zelder's corrected tweet to say, there 119 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:39.120 are higher courts. It's it's not the end of the world, 120 00:06:39.920 --> 00:06:42.319 you know, Fortunately for Steve, it's it's just like anything. 121 00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:44.240 You know, if you get hit in the face, you know, 122 00:06:44.360 --> 00:06:47.639 unless it's by Scarlett Johansson or something, it's probably going 123 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:51.279 to be pretty pretty unpleasant. And and Chad can tell 124 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:53.240 you that that Steve is pretty bummed out about it. 125 00:06:53.839 --> 00:06:56.240 But it's not the final it's not the end of 126 00:06:56.240 --> 00:07:00.560 the road. There are other appeals. And she said in 127 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:03.079 some number of tweets that she does have new evidence, 128 00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:09.279 new witnesses, and because the case was basically what the 129 00:07:09.399 --> 00:07:12.480 judge said was that you you can't use the stuff 130 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:16.399 that was found as evidence before, it's not that much 131 00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:21.639 of a detriment necessarily because Zelner had presented the motion 132 00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:26.040 based on new evidence. So I don't know how far 133 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:28.160 that goes to where they can attach the new evidence 134 00:07:28.199 --> 00:07:31.720 to the old evidence. But all in all, in the 135 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:34.240 in the big picture, I don't believe this is going 136 00:07:34.279 --> 00:07:39.720 to hinder Stephen Avery's chances of being freed. And especially 137 00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:46.040 with the information that Chad's book has brought forth. You 138 00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:48.759 add that to the stew and you're going to have 139 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:53.519 a pretty pretty yummy stew that hopefully puts the correct 140 00:07:53.560 --> 00:07:57.000 people behind bars. If that answers your question. 141 00:07:58.199 --> 00:08:01.000 It does, Chad, I want to ask thank you first, 142 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:04.759 based on everything that you were that you've written about, 143 00:08:04.959 --> 00:08:08.720 were you surprised at the decision? And then what parts 144 00:08:08.759 --> 00:08:13.560 of this judge's decision, her argument against this this and 145 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:17.480 for this denial, what parts were you surprised with? We 146 00:08:17.639 --> 00:08:20.519 surprised at this decision? Tell us what surprised you and 147 00:08:20.600 --> 00:08:23.439 didn't surprise you with this decision yesterday? 148 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:29.480 Well, Dad is Manitowac County, so nothing really surprises me 149 00:08:29.959 --> 00:08:35.399 at the county level. What is surprising is that the 150 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:40.879 judge was making small little arguments and just trying to 151 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:44.600 beat it to death and just nitpicking any little thing 152 00:08:44.679 --> 00:08:48.039 to keep Stephen from getting a retrial there in Manage 153 00:08:48.039 --> 00:08:52.279 Wac County. But the zelder is going to try to 154 00:08:52.279 --> 00:08:56.080 file a new brief, she stated, I think before Thanksgiving, 155 00:08:56.600 --> 00:08:59.240 and it's going to go to the Wisconsin Court of 156 00:08:59.320 --> 00:09:02.840 appill It, which will be a better court for Stephen 157 00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:05.480 to have a retrial in. I think the play and 158 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:10.240 field will be better leveled for him. But I mean, 159 00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:14.159 there's some things that need to go on before this 160 00:09:14.200 --> 00:09:17.799 trial takes place. And one of those things is getting 161 00:09:17.919 --> 00:09:22.559 certain people attached to the new appeal off of it. 162 00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:28.559 And who are some of those people that need to 163 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:30.120 be off of this appeal? 164 00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:35.519 As you say, right now, the Assistant Attorney General Thomas J. 165 00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:40.159 Fallon is handling the appeal for Steven Avery and then 166 00:09:40.279 --> 00:09:45.559 Norman Gann, and these people were directly related to an 167 00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:50.879 affiliation with Peg Watton Slagger's political agenda at the time 168 00:09:51.240 --> 00:09:56.720 of this two thousand and five incident, and they just 169 00:09:57.000 --> 00:09:59.480 they need to be recused from this immediately. 170 00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:07.399 But is there anyone other than you officially calling for 171 00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:12.039 this and demanding this, and and if there is, how 172 00:10:12.080 --> 00:10:17.039 effective is that demand? How effective do you think that 173 00:10:17.039 --> 00:10:17.720 demand will be? 174 00:10:19.399 --> 00:10:25.279 I think a lot of Avery supporters. Won't these people recuse, 175 00:10:25.399 --> 00:10:27.399 but a lot of them and a lot a lot 176 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:33.240 of people are still blind about Thomas J. Fallon being 177 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:37.559 third in command of the entire state. And they see 178 00:10:38.200 --> 00:10:41.799 Ken Kratz as like the so called villain and making 179 00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:45.440 a murder of the prosecutor. But but Kratz was a 180 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:49.080 fall guy. Kratz is absolutely and nobody in this case 181 00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:51.919 the person with all the power who stepped onto the 182 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:58.799 scene whenever Brendan Dacy was coerced and become a part 183 00:10:58.840 --> 00:11:03.039 of the prosecution as Fallon Fallon Fallon was starting command 184 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:03.639 of the state. 185 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:04.399 And he's still in. 186 00:11:04.360 --> 00:11:07.480 Third in command of the entire state. And that's that's 187 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:10.919 the real state power that people have got to get 188 00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:15.480 their mind grasped around to understand that he had the 189 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:20.879 power to throw the match in the original trial. 190 00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:27.879 Let's talk to one and ask I want to ask 191 00:11:27.919 --> 00:11:32.759 the question about Brendan Dacy. Not everybody's up to completely 192 00:11:32.799 --> 00:11:36.480 on speed on what has happened with People have seen 193 00:11:36.519 --> 00:11:40.000 Making of a Murderer that first season. Surely people have 194 00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:43.759 heard that the confession has been deemed to be coerced, 195 00:11:44.360 --> 00:11:49.720 and we've heard about his mental capabilities or disabilities. Let's 196 00:11:49.759 --> 00:11:52.919 talk about what's happened in the summer and the fall 197 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:57.159 regarding Brendan Dassy one test group. 198 00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:04.919 Well, essentially last summer, when Judge Duffin basically granted that 199 00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:11.039 rit of habeas corpus to Brendan Dacy, Brad Shimmel decided 200 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:15.320 to appeal that within the ninety days. And this is 201 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:21.600 kind of where I'm questioning Brad Shimmel because I do 202 00:12:21.720 --> 00:12:24.240 know that Brad Shimmel is a member of the Republican Party. 203 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:30.000 And in the years prior leading up to the twenty 204 00:12:30.120 --> 00:12:34.639 sixteen election, in even twenty fourteen election, there were numerous 205 00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:40.320 instances and cases where the opposing party was trying to 206 00:12:40.759 --> 00:12:45.840 railroad his Republican Party. And to date, even though there 207 00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:49.159 were many infractions that realistically should have been looked at 208 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:54.519 quite soon, he hasn't even looked at those particular cases 209 00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:58.919 that dealt with blows to his party. But he can 210 00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:02.519 take the time, you know, to to take some poor 211 00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:08.440 sixteen year old kid, and you know, appeal within ninety days, 212 00:13:08.440 --> 00:13:12.320 which is only three months. A confession where anybody who 213 00:13:12.399 --> 00:13:15.039 looks at that tape. Ray Charles could look at the 214 00:13:15.080 --> 00:13:19.720 tape and say, hey, at worst, you could say, you know, 215 00:13:19.879 --> 00:13:23.440 the kid, the kid was probably co worse. I mean, 216 00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:25.320 anybody with eyes is going to say, yeah, it's it's 217 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:29.200 pretty blatant. But they took the time to actually appeal 218 00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:32.360 that they lost in the seventh Circuit by two to one. 219 00:13:32.840 --> 00:13:35.720 They took the time to unbomb that. And they just 220 00:13:35.799 --> 00:13:39.559 recently held a hearing where Laura and I Rider for 221 00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:41.639 a rider I don't know how to pronounce her name, 222 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:45.559 and the young Lady for the Innocent Projects from that 223 00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:51.039 that Dacy was working with. They gave their respective speeches, 224 00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:53.840 so to speak, and you could tell that there were 225 00:13:53.840 --> 00:13:59.679 some judges who were quite favorable towards Dascy and others weren't. 226 00:14:00.279 --> 00:14:03.120 There are also, I believe louke Berg had a huge 227 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:06.000 conferdict of interest with Jude Sykes. Yet these things go 228 00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:10.519 through all the time, so there's some instances within those 229 00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:14.279 instances that need to be addressed and looked at. But 230 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:19.159 essentially the you know, that's what we're waiting on is 231 00:14:19.200 --> 00:14:22.279 for this panel to make their next decision so that 232 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:25.720 we can go forth to see whether or not mister 233 00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:31.440 Dassy reigns victorious. Because if he raigns victorious. What does 234 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:34.799 that mean for Stephen Avery? Is that a complete game changer? 235 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:36.919 Are they going to say kind of what they did 236 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:40.519 yesterday and say, well, too bad that somehow doesn't count. 237 00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:42.519 So this is going to be a really interesting turn 238 00:14:42.559 --> 00:14:45.600 of events. Quite honestly, if it wasn't so drawn out, 239 00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:47.799 it would make Game of Thrones and House of Cards 240 00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:49.799 and Orange just the new. But nobody be watching those 241 00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:52.159 shows because they want to see what these real life 242 00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:57.000 twists and turns have in the Wisconsin political system that 243 00:14:57.279 --> 00:15:00.759 has a little bit of a tinge of corruption. Again, 244 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:02.159 if that answers your question. 245 00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:08.279 Has there been any comment from the producers of Making 246 00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:14.360 a Murderer to this decision but also to the assertions 247 00:15:14.399 --> 00:15:15.320 in this book. 248 00:15:17.480 --> 00:15:27.200 Chat As as far as the creators are concerned, A 249 00:15:27.279 --> 00:15:32.879 lot of them was helped out by Jerome Butden the 250 00:15:32.919 --> 00:15:39.639 Defense Council for Steven Avery while making this documentary, and 251 00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:45.159 a lot of them are still still It's a hurdle 252 00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:49.879 to say if Butteen was involved with the state or not. 253 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:55.679 I have numerous facts that puts him in Latten Schlagger's pocket. Actually, 254 00:15:56.200 --> 00:15:59.399 But as far as the creators, I mean they jump 255 00:15:59.480 --> 00:16:04.080 started the creators beauty jem started the creator's careers and 256 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:07.559 they're all sort of so so, I mean, it's hard 257 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:10.960 to get any response back form from them just because 258 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:16.399 of that aspect. 259 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:17.600 You assert in this book, and we didn't get to 260 00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:20.039 it last time. So I'm going to ask you this 261 00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:24.759 because it is fascinating how far you go into this 262 00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:31.879 inference after inference fact evidence that you provide incredibly compelling 263 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:36.399 argument in this book in so many directions. We talked 264 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:40.679 about the Attorney General and her complicity in this and 265 00:16:40.759 --> 00:16:43.759 her connections. If you think there's corrupt police, well then 266 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:46.639 who was in control of the corrupt police? You pose 267 00:16:46.840 --> 00:16:52.799 that question, But you talk about Teresa Halbach's last day 268 00:16:53.879 --> 00:17:01.559 and her connection pig Logenslager Loudenslager to that particular day 269 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:06.480 and to Teresa Hallback. Chad tell us about. 270 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:14.920 That Teresa Hallback had visited Stephen P. Smith on the 271 00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:18.640 morning that she allegedly died. That was her first visit 272 00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:24.440 to take photos for Auto Trager magazine. And what's interesting 273 00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:25.400 about this case. 274 00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:26.400 Stephen P. 275 00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:31.960 Smith's lives in the same area as peg Lautenschlagger, which 276 00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:39.000 is in Fondelac area, and her campaign manager for her 277 00:17:39.160 --> 00:17:43.720 actual Attorney General run whenever she campaigned. 278 00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:45.119 Todd M. 279 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:50.279 Smith is Stephen P. Smith's blood relative. So on the 280 00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:56.920 day that Teresa is last seen alive by her first photography, 281 00:17:56.960 --> 00:18:00.720 first session that she does, she's actually visited a blood 282 00:18:00.759 --> 00:18:05.200 relative of her campaign manager. And now is what is 283 00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:12.880 so conflicting about this is peg Lautenschlagger has declined to 284 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:17.720 speak for twelve years now on anything to do with 285 00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:23.319 the Hallback case. She'll speak that Gregory Allen in the 286 00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:27.119 nineteen eighty five Penny Beerstein case that there wasn't enough 287 00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:32.480 witness identification to prove Gregory Allan as the suspect of 288 00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:35.880 Penny Bennerstein and not Steven Avery. So she kind of 289 00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:40.519 protects Manitoia County there, but she should speak up for 290 00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:45.359 her whereabouts on where she was the day that Teresa 291 00:18:45.400 --> 00:18:49.160 Halback would legly died, because Teresa was in her own backyards. 292 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:50.240 So to speak. 293 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:58.519 Now with that, you would think that you are not 294 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:02.359 certainly not hiding any of these facts. And you've been 295 00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:06.640 very vocal in promoting yourself and the allegations and assertions 296 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:11.480 and the claims that you make in this book. What 297 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:14.920 is the reaction from the Department of justice to some 298 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:16.720 of the things that you said. And if there is 299 00:19:16.759 --> 00:19:19.920 no reaction, what what do you conclude from that? 300 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:25.759 Well, there has been an actual reaction on ken Krets, 301 00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:32.200 we exchanged emails and and he told me that he 302 00:19:32.440 --> 00:19:36.079 was going to forward my information to Thomas J. Fallon, 303 00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:40.799 and would would be that I'd probably be in touch 304 00:19:40.839 --> 00:19:44.880 with if I released my book for criminal defamation. And 305 00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:48.559 we're talking like there's millions of supporters here and this 306 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:53.319 is the state capital of Wisconsin, where Thomas J. Fallon's 307 00:19:53.319 --> 00:19:58.119 desk is, and he's going to forward information about my 308 00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:02.519 book straight to the assist the Attorney General of winsconsing. 309 00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:05.799 I mean that that shows that the information in my 310 00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:09.599 book is a threat to them, you know. I mean, 311 00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:13.839 I haven't heard anything else from Crats but on why 312 00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:18.039 it opened for whatever they want to confront me with 313 00:20:18.119 --> 00:20:22.759 in it? Because I would like to actually challenge them 314 00:20:22.759 --> 00:20:25.680 with a deposition, isn't it? Because But but they won't 315 00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:28.480 do that at this point because if they start releasing 316 00:20:28.519 --> 00:20:34.079 information about Lotten Slagger and Falins emails with Lotten Schlaggers, 317 00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:38.119 Beauden's emails with Lotten Schlagger, Crats, these Fastbenders, all these 318 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:42.119 key people involved in these cases. It's gonna blow this 319 00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:45.799 thing wide open. So they're actually just writing it off 320 00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:49.279 right now because if they if they dive into it, 321 00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:51.920 then they're opening up a can of worms. And I mean, 322 00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:54.599 it's gonna be very bad for the state. And I'm 323 00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:58.440 just trying to get anybody, anybody in the media, anybody 324 00:20:58.519 --> 00:21:02.720 to to get Button Schlagger to answer the questions in 325 00:21:02.839 --> 00:21:03.400 this book. 326 00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:09.640 Absolutely one you talked about that this is not the 327 00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:14.880 end for Steven Avery and that there is some optimism, 328 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:18.559 it sounds like from you for a federal appeal if 329 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:22.400 I'm not correct, So tell us what you think those 330 00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:27.279 grounds are federally that they have this lake to stand on, 331 00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:30.200 what they will base or likely will or what you 332 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:33.319 think is the strongest ground that they have for this 333 00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:34.200 federal appeal. 334 00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:40.440 Well, the strongest grounds, in my opinion, that they have 335 00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:43.519 is in a I think at two hundred what is it, 336 00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:46.839 seventy three pages in a book called Beyond Avery Road, 337 00:21:48.200 --> 00:21:52.920 because it exposes things that has nothing to do with 338 00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:55.599 what's already been sured out in the past or in 339 00:21:55.640 --> 00:21:59.400 the present, and it can make connections to where it 340 00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:05.480 you know, it itself will allow anyone reads it to say, well, 341 00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:08.799 there's enough reasonable doubt to say that that even if 342 00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:12.359 it's not circular is and all these people we were 343 00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:15.359 tied in which which I'm sure we'll get to before 344 00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:19.400 the end of the programs, but even one or two, 345 00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:21.960 as long as there's one or two, that that's all 346 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:25.079 you need matter of fact, that that that's what happened. 347 00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:27.079 In the O J. Case, of course, is a little 348 00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:30.119 bit different. But the federal part of the appeal, which 349 00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:32.240 is the last one, which is what Brendan is is 350 00:22:32.599 --> 00:22:36.599 the is the hebeas Corpus writ And that's usually the 351 00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:38.720 hardest believe it or not. As matter of fact, they're 352 00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:43.079 not granted very often from my understanding, But more than 353 00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:46.039 likely what's going to happen is is the next appeals 354 00:22:46.119 --> 00:22:50.960 court will be the the kicker slash winner, because then 355 00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:54.559 after that it was constant Supreme Court. My guess is 356 00:22:55.599 --> 00:22:59.960 if somehow, for whatever reason, you know, our information does 357 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:04.319 make it out there, which I can't foresee that happening 358 00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:07.200 because you know, quite frankly, we've got we've got the 359 00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:11.599 nuts hand. But uh, that will be where the real 360 00:23:12.039 --> 00:23:14.359 uh decision will be made when it comes to Stephen Avery. 361 00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:19.519 Just on what Zelder is presenting in her motions. But 362 00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:24.240 again with Brendan, Uh if if if Stephen Avery was 363 00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:27.839 was convicted on what Brendan's testimony was and Brendan's testimony 364 00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:30.920 gets thrown out, well that changes the game altogether. So 365 00:23:31.240 --> 00:23:33.960 when I said before that, I don't think it's the 366 00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:36.519 be all end off of Steven Avery. You know, it's 367 00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:39.559 there's a lot, there's a lot more on the arsenal, 368 00:23:40.599 --> 00:23:44.000 But as far as I'm concerned, uh, the the best 369 00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:48.079 weapon in that arsenal is exactly the stuff we're talking about, 370 00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:51.960 and it's exactly the stuff that's in Chad's book Beyond 371 00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:56.759 d Avery Road. Again, because you know, regardless of whatever 372 00:23:56.759 --> 00:23:59.279 it is they try to suppress, regardless of uh, you 373 00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:02.680 know who said what, if you've got documentation and if 374 00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:06.960 you've got trails that tie everybody together that say that 375 00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:10.319 this is a stacked deck, none of that other stuff matters. 376 00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:14.640 I mean, honestly, in that scenario, Stephen could have actually 377 00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:20.200 done it and still walk free because of the connections 378 00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:26.440 and the circular, roundabout way that everybody behind the scenes 379 00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:29.079 worked together on this to put Stephen in the situation 380 00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:30.000 he's in. 381 00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:38.359 So Chad, you talked about Zelner Defense attorney Zelner's approach 382 00:24:38.440 --> 00:24:40.839 with this, and we haven't talked about that, and that 383 00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:44.200 is that she has another suspect and she names another 384 00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:47.559 person of interest. Tell us who that other person that 385 00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:53.359 other suspect is, And was this, in hindsight a good strategy? 386 00:24:53.480 --> 00:24:57.000 Is this the way to go? Is it the way 387 00:24:57.079 --> 00:24:58.960 she must go? What do you think, Chad? 388 00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:06.279 As far as her suspect, Teresa Halback's ex boyfriend, Ryan 389 00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:11.200 Hill A Gas, he was never protected under the Denny 390 00:25:11.319 --> 00:25:16.000 law that was filed in motion during the pre trial. 391 00:25:16.640 --> 00:25:22.640 And it's it's a constitutional loophole where she can backdoor 392 00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:27.640 on the appeals courts by saying, hey, we have a 393 00:25:27.720 --> 00:25:32.920 suspect here and this correlates her. Her theory is that 394 00:25:33.079 --> 00:25:38.319 Ryan Hill of Gas is responsible for bludgeoning Teresa Halback 395 00:25:38.440 --> 00:25:42.119 to death. Now, now why I think she's going with 396 00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:45.880 that motive. If you take Brendan Dacy and he gets 397 00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:51.720 his habeast approved and he wins his case, then the 398 00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:55.599 state no longer has a smoking bullet. Because Norman Gan 399 00:25:55.920 --> 00:25:58.359 one of the people I want to I've been fighting 400 00:25:58.359 --> 00:26:03.200 to get removed. He in the original trial said we 401 00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:07.359