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<v Speaker 1>Oh hey, it's your sister who is cursed with loving

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<v Speaker 1>Arnold Palmer's but cannot say Arnold Palmer's ally ward back

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<v Speaker 1>with an episode of ologies that none of us saw coming,

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<v Speaker 1>because this isn't an ology that you probably knew existed.

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<v Speaker 1>In fact, only one other ologist before this may have

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<v Speaker 1>used the title, and we will cover why. But I

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<v Speaker 1>met this ologist back in March and we chatted for

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<v Speaker 1>a while. I was up in San Francisco doing a

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<v Speaker 1>panel at the California Academy of Sciences, and then we

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<v Speaker 1>saw each other again and we recorded more when we

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<v Speaker 1>were both on Catalina Island. She was selected for the

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<v Speaker 1>USC Wrigley story Makers Program, and I was on the

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<v Speaker 1>island teaching these climate scientists, including herself, about all of

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<v Speaker 1>the ups and downs of podcasting. So I got to

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<v Speaker 1>corner her again and ask her more questions because she

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<v Speaker 1>is cool and I like her. So she did her

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<v Speaker 1>undergrad in environmental studies at NYU and got a PhD

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<v Speaker 1>in ecology and evolutionary biology from a place called Cornell University,

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<v Speaker 1>and then a post doc at UC Berkeley, and she

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<v Speaker 1>also worked at the California Academy of Sciences in San

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<v Speaker 1>Francisco as a research scientist in critical ecology, and this

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<v Speaker 1>year she won the National Geographic Society Wayfinder Award. She's

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<v Speaker 1>also developed this new field of critical ecology and founded

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<v Speaker 1>the Critical Ecology Lab, which is a nonprofit research center

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<v Speaker 1>that focuses on how systems of inequity are messing up

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<v Speaker 1>the planet. So ecology comes from a root meaning about

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<v Speaker 1>who's live and wear, and critical in this sense has

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<v Speaker 1>roots and social philosophies that look to figure out and

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<v Speaker 1>understand and critique societal power structures and just get to

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<v Speaker 1>the bottom of why some shit is fucked up. And

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<v Speaker 1>those are my words, not hers, But yes, critical just

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<v Speaker 1>means let's look at this, shall we? But we will

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<v Speaker 1>get into it Before we get into it though quick.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks to all the patrons who make the show possible.

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<v Speaker 1>At patreon dot com slash ologies, you can support for

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<v Speaker 1>a dollar a month and submit questions for theologists before

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<v Speaker 1>we record.

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<v Speaker 2>And thank you to.

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<v Speaker 1>Everyone who just uplifts the show by subscribing and rating

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<v Speaker 1>and leaving reviews for me to see. I see them all,

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<v Speaker 1>including this one by ladybird Eggs, who wrote, thanks for

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<v Speaker 1>making us all better, smarter, weirder, and more interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>People. Honestly highest praise I could ever ask for it.

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<v Speaker 1>You are welcome Lady Bird Eggs, whose name is hard

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<v Speaker 1>to say is Arnold Palmers.

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<v Speaker 2>Anyway, onto the show.

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<v Speaker 1>Which despite the tough topics that we cover in this

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<v Speaker 1>it's one of the goofyer just wore down to Earth

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<v Speaker 1>chatty romps that we've had in a while. You're gonna

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<v Speaker 1>love her. So get ready for biogeochemist, soil microbial ecologist, scholar,

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<v Speaker 1>principal investigator, National Geographic Explorer, and the world's foremost critical ecologist,

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<v Speaker 1>doctor Suzanne Pierre. Okay, so heads up, this interview started

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<v Speaker 1>before the interview even started, so our mics were still

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<v Speaker 1>on the table.

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<v Speaker 2>I googled it recently and I was like, oh, this

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<v Speaker 2>phrase has been used once before. In nineteen seventy four.

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<v Speaker 2>There's one paper that a guy was writing about it

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<v Speaker 2>and he wrote this kind of treatise about moving from

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<v Speaker 2>critical theory to critical ecology, like that was the title.

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<v Speaker 2>And I was like, oh, that's what I'm doing. I

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<v Speaker 2>had never seen this paper at all. I'm not polagiarizing

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<v Speaker 2>this man. I will credit him, but I read the

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<v Speaker 2>appstrackt and I was like, that's what I've been saying,

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<v Speaker 2>but no one ever followed up on his work since whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it was like seventy four that it was published.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm a little bit biting off this man, but

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<v Speaker 2>I'm also like a little bit his black brainchild of

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<v Speaker 2>the distance. And you know, it's so interesting the way

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<v Speaker 2>that two ideas can come together independently or come up independently,

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<v Speaker 2>but like speak to each other.

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<v Speaker 1>So anyway, I.

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<v Speaker 2>Want to credit that man. But other than that guy,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think anyone else is talking about critical ecology.

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<v Speaker 1>His name doctor Vincent Denarsia, a Toronto based philosophy professor,

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<v Speaker 1>and I found his paper. It's titled from Critical Theory

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<v Speaker 1>to Critical Ecology. It was published in nineteen seventy four,

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<v Speaker 1>which was almost half a century ago.

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<v Speaker 2>And if you are a gen xer, take a minute.

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<v Speaker 2>That's difficult.

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<v Speaker 1>I know the math, but the abstract explains that quote

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<v Speaker 1>man's mastery of nature has always been double edged and ideology,

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<v Speaker 1>which often extended to the domination of men and vintage

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<v Speaker 1>sexism for the period aside, it continues. The increasing evidence

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<v Speaker 1>of the ecological problems attendant to advanced technology successes also

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<v Speaker 1>demands the development of a non repressive standpoint toward our

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<v Speaker 1>natural habitat. So doctor Pierre saw this abstract was like,

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<v Speaker 1>who is this guy? Why do we have the same

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<v Speaker 1>mission but including more genders?

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<v Speaker 3>Now?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, so let's actually just start this discussion. Anyways, we're

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<v Speaker 2>not in the interview yet. No, that's amazing, though. First

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<v Speaker 2>thing I have to do, Mike check. Yeah, Mike check.

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<v Speaker 2>If you could just say your first and last name

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<v Speaker 2>and your pronounce My name is Suzanne Pierre, and my

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<v Speaker 2>pronounce or she her doctor Pierre, doctor Pierre. That's right.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's go over a little bit of what is critical ecology?

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<v Speaker 2>What is critical ecology? A question no one's ever asked

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<v Speaker 2>you ever vote before. It is so new, it's very confusing. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>so let's start with what is ecology? Okay, that's really useful.

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<v Speaker 2>So ecology is the study of how all living and

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<v Speaker 2>non living things in a system in nature interact with

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<v Speaker 2>one another, how they exchange matter and energy, and how

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<v Speaker 2>matter and energy is organized in living and non living

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<v Speaker 2>parts of an environment. So that means from the rocks

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<v Speaker 2>to water, to all of the animals, plants, and kind

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<v Speaker 2>of how they all are interconnected and rely on each other.

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<v Speaker 2>And ecology includes lots of other things, like the behavior

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<v Speaker 2>of those plants and animals and how they have evolved

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<v Speaker 2>to interact with one another. And la la lah okay,

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<v Speaker 2>so very science, la la la. So critical ecology is

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<v Speaker 2>looking at that basic ecosystem and thinking about how when

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<v Speaker 2>we measure changes in that ecosystem, we need to be

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<v Speaker 2>thinking about the particular ways that human behavior, decision making,

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<v Speaker 2>and ultimately power dynamics have come to shape the ways

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<v Speaker 2>that those living and non li link things interact. And

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<v Speaker 2>the kind of premise of critical ecology is that where

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<v Speaker 2>there are disparities in power between groups of human beings,

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<v Speaker 2>we're looking at what patterns emerge from those disparities in

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<v Speaker 2>power for all elements of ecology. So I hope that's

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<v Speaker 2>a good start. No, that's a great start. Okay, it's

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<v Speaker 2>so big, Yes, tell me about it.

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<v Speaker 1>So everything from excess nitrogen in waterways because of giant

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<v Speaker 1>agriculture companies planting monocultures, down to did your mayor decide

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<v Speaker 1>to pave over part of the park for a tennis

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<v Speaker 1>court that no one uses and now there's fewer butterflies.

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<v Speaker 1>That could all be under the critical ecology umbrella. So

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<v Speaker 1>you just saying huh dang, that's critical ecology. Every neighborhood

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<v Speaker 1>council meeting is teeming with critical ecology. One could argue,

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<v Speaker 1>we just didn't really have a term for it. But

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<v Speaker 1>let's back up a little. How long have you been,

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<v Speaker 1>doctor Pierre?

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<v Speaker 2>I got my PhD in twenty eighteen, so I think

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<v Speaker 2>that that is four years. That feels like four years.

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<v Speaker 2>Did you get it in critical ecology? Not at all.

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<v Speaker 2>I got my PhD in biogeochemistry and ecosystems ecology, and

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<v Speaker 2>I focused on forests and soil and kind of thinking

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<v Speaker 2>about how microbes in terrestrial environments. Have I already used

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<v Speaker 2>too many words that I should like? Peel back? Oh,

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<v Speaker 2>I love this, So we love these words? Okay, great,

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<v Speaker 2>So I apply microbial ecology and biogeochemistry and ecosystems ecology.

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<v Speaker 2>I love this to understand how plants, soils, and microbes

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<v Speaker 2>exchange nutrients and how that pretty much shapes when you

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<v Speaker 2>look at a forest, how that forest functions, and why

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<v Speaker 2>it is the way it is.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you gravitate toward that because you liked dirt or

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<v Speaker 1>because you like plants?

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<v Speaker 2>What led you to that particular niche? All of the above.

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<v Speaker 2>I love soil. I like decided I loved soil. I

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<v Speaker 2>think around like sometime in high school, like late in

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<v Speaker 2>high school, and that was before I thought I was

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<v Speaker 2>going to do science.

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<v Speaker 1>I was just.

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<v Speaker 2>Like like a quiet fan of dirt, and I was

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<v Speaker 2>just kind of like, wow, we just walk around on

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<v Speaker 2>this extremely complicated medium that at that point in high school,

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<v Speaker 2>I had just found out that it was also alive.

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<v Speaker 2>Like I was like, side note actively alive, excuse me,

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<v Speaker 2>And so that was thrilling. And I found out about

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<v Speaker 2>the cycle of the elements, like the global cycle of

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<v Speaker 2>carbon and nitrogen, and somebody I believe my like, all right,

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<v Speaker 2>shout out mysterick heart, wherever you are. My high school

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<v Speaker 2>biology teacher showed us like a diagram and it's like

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<v Speaker 2>all of the arrows that are like the soil, the atmosphere,

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<v Speaker 2>the vegetation. And everyone else was like this is exhausting.

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<v Speaker 2>Why are there so many arrows? It does not need

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<v Speaker 2>to be this many arrows. And I was like more arrows,

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<v Speaker 2>Give me more arrows, and like actually, like biogeochemistry loves arrows.

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<v Speaker 2>We just fucking love I want to very much. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just truly like that is my main question actively

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<v Speaker 2>in life is like what's going in and what's coming out?

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<v Speaker 2>I'm serious, Like, you can boil so many things down

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<v Speaker 2>to literally just what's going in and what's coming out.

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<v Speaker 1>For more dirt on forest soils, you can see the

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<v Speaker 1>Forensic Ecology episode with doctor Tierra Moore from November of

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty one and Soiler Alert. There's an upcoming Pedal

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<v Speaker 1>g episode on soils and I'll pronounce that better when

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<v Speaker 1>it comes out, but it'll explain more that's coming up.

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<v Speaker 1>Calm down, calm dow ask gon me be exciting. But

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<v Speaker 1>the title of Sue's dissertation, that's a great question.

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<v Speaker 2>What was my dissertation?

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<v Speaker 1>I wasn't sure if people were so sick of their

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<v Speaker 1>own dissertation title that they're like, I never want to

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<v Speaker 1>hear those words again.

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<v Speaker 2>I googled it right there when we were sitting together. Wait,

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<v Speaker 2>I literally haven't thought of that.

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<v Speaker 1>Here we go below ground carbon and nitrogen cycling and

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<v Speaker 1>forced ecosystems in response to mean annual temperature and nutrient limitation.

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<v Speaker 2>How could you forget that? I'm actually I don't. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not like fading it, Like I'm literally crying right now.

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<v Speaker 2>That's so funny. So it's been four years since that

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<v Speaker 2>was your dissertation.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, bring me back a little bit to the process

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<v Speaker 1>of getting a PhD.

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<v Speaker 2>Is not a simple process. No, I was exhausting. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>still tired. That's why I forgot.

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<v Speaker 1>Now nowhere in there is there critical ecology? I would

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<v Speaker 1>love to know in that dissertation. What's the TLDR on that?

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<v Speaker 1>And how did that sort of ignite which is torrible

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<v Speaker 1>term when you're talking about the climate, but how did

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<v Speaker 1>that leapfrog you into critical ecology?

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<v Speaker 2>Gotcha? So the TLDR on the dissertation is basically I

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<v Speaker 2>was interested in this idea that people kind of think

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<v Speaker 2>of plants as not really having like agency or like choice.

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<v Speaker 2>We think we know that for now TBD. And what's

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<v Speaker 2>really interesting is that plants actually do respond to their

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<v Speaker 2>environment by changing how they allocate their resources within their bodies,

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<v Speaker 2>within their tissues. And so they can basically put more

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<v Speaker 2>carbon above ground in like their stem and leaf and

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<v Speaker 2>flower parts than their root parts, depending on what's going on.

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<v Speaker 2>And so we know that this kind of decision making

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<v Speaker 2>system of like put your carbon up top, put your

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<v Speaker 2>carbon down below is a response to resources. And so

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<v Speaker 2>I'm with climate change, knowing that temperature is increasing, knowing

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<v Speaker 2>that environments are becoming drier, so much is changing with

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<v Speaker 2>both the plant and the microbes. And so I became

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<v Speaker 2>really interested in this idea of like this dance between

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<v Speaker 2>plants responding to climate, microbes responding to climate, and then

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<v Speaker 2>plants and microbes responding to each other. What did your

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<v Speaker 2>field research look like? So my dissertation work was in

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<v Speaker 2>Hawaii on the Big Island. Yeah, it was really difficult

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<v Speaker 2>in that I had like primarily fun No, it was,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I wish I could have spent more time there,

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<v Speaker 2>but I was super fortunate to get to work there

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<v Speaker 2>on the Monaca volcano, like the forests that grow on

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<v Speaker 2>that volcano. And I also worked in New Hampshire in

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<v Speaker 2>the White Mountains. Yeah, and so I got to kind

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<v Speaker 2>of compare like a temperate forest ecosystem like in New

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<v Speaker 2>Hampshire to the tropical what forest environment of Hawaii?

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<v Speaker 1>Did you find that in Hawaii because it was a

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<v Speaker 1>forest on a volcano, was the soil newer and less diverse? Well?

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<v Speaker 2>You know your stuff. I mean, I'm just you're showing off. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>that's no, that's exactly right. That's why Hawaii is this

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<v Speaker 2>perfect system because usually, like my dissertation was asking this

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<v Speaker 2>question of like with increasing temperature, that is inevitable at

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<v Speaker 2>this point. Thank you so much, climate change, Thank you

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<v Speaker 2>so much, fossil fuels. We know that trees are going

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<v Speaker 2>to be responding differently to nutrient availability, but we don't

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<v Speaker 2>actually know how nutrient availability is going to change, and

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<v Speaker 2>so we can use space as a substitution for time.

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<v Speaker 2>As you go up in elevation, it's colder, as you

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<v Speaker 2>go down in elevation, it's warmer. But with in Hawaii

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<v Speaker 2>because of the volcanic soils that are pretty much started

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<v Speaker 2>from the same material at the same time because of

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<v Speaker 2>one lava flow, you can compare a high elevation site

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<v Speaker 2>to a low elevation site because they've got the same stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>And so we could do this study that compares the

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<v Speaker 2>high elevation cool site with the low elevation warmer site.

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<v Speaker 1>When did you start to think about the intersection of

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<v Speaker 1>climate and social justice and climate justice? Was there anything

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<v Speaker 1>at all like jarring between going from New Hampshire the

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<v Speaker 1>is it freedom or die?

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<v Speaker 2>It's live free or drafts or die. They really do that,

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<v Speaker 2>they really do live free and die.

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<v Speaker 1>The first time I went to New Hampshire, I was like,

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<v Speaker 1>oh wow, that really is on the license plates.

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<v Speaker 2>And no one's playing. No one's playing. Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>Side note, I just need to tell you what other

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<v Speaker 1>state modos are to put this in context, Indiana's Crossroads

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<v Speaker 1>of America, All for our Country, chirped, Nevada, may Idaho,

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<v Speaker 1>Endure Forever. And then the Texas motto is simply friendship.

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<v Speaker 1>But back to New Hampshire's live free or Die. So

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<v Speaker 1>that motto has only been the state motto since nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>forty five, and in the seventies they were like this

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<v Speaker 1>modo rips, this is so bad ass. We're going to

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<v Speaker 1>change all the license plates. Let's get the word scenic

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<v Speaker 1>out of there. Let's go hard here in New England,

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<v Speaker 1>everyone's plates say live free or die now. And some

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<v Speaker 1>people are like, whoa, yikes, I don't really like that.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a little too hardcore. And they covered up the

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<v Speaker 1>motto on their license plate with like some masking tape

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<v Speaker 1>and the cops are like, no, you don't. And then

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<v Speaker 1>the Supreme Court had to step in to be like

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<v Speaker 1>New Hampshire, dude, you cannot scream live free or die

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<v Speaker 1>and then tell someone that they don't have the freedom

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<v Speaker 1>to cover up, live free or die on their license plate.

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<v Speaker 1>Come on, it's embarrassing. But New Hampshire, good on you

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<v Speaker 1>for being an abolition estate and sending tens of thousands

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<v Speaker 1>of troops to fight for the end of slavery in

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<v Speaker 1>the US.

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<v Speaker 2>That was cool.

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<v Speaker 1>I have a feeling every tattoo artist in New Hampshire

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<v Speaker 1>does like five live free or Die tattoos every day now,

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<v Speaker 1>from the literal white mountains of New Hampshire to to

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<v Speaker 1>you know, to kind of a sacred volcano site in

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<v Speaker 1>an island that's been recently colonized by one of the

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<v Speaker 1>world's biggest superpowers. When did critical ecologies start to kind

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<v Speaker 1>of crop up for you?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it actually cropped up before I got to grad school.

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<v Speaker 2>There's kind of this this idea in science that science

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<v Speaker 2>is objective and that is its virtue essentially, that that's

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<v Speaker 2>the only way that we can know truth is through

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<v Speaker 2>objectivity and through rationally approaching questions. Right. I guess to

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<v Speaker 2>answer your question, I never really bought that as I

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<v Speaker 2>am a black woman. For those of you listening here,

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<v Speaker 2>I am black, and when I was an undergrad, I

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<v Speaker 2>was actually not a science major. I was really interested

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<v Speaker 2>in the idea that the way that nature functions, the

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<v Speaker 2>way that we interact with it is so much, has

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<v Speaker 2>so much to do with our values, and has so

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<v Speaker 2>much to do with power. I wanted to go get

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<v Speaker 2>a PhD pretty much because I didn't see anybody else

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<v Speaker 2>making that connection between actually doing like the measurements and

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<v Speaker 2>the analyzes of forests and soils through the lens of

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<v Speaker 2>power being an important control, an important variable in why

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<v Speaker 2>forests are where they are, how they grew, h the

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<v Speaker 2>way they grow, how they function.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that that's so fundamental what you said too

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<v Speaker 1>about the assumed objectivity. The questions that are asked and

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<v Speaker 1>answered depend entirely on who's asking them precisely.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, I'm the second black

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<v Speaker 2>woman to graduate with a PhD from the department that

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<v Speaker 2>I graduated from, and that's not by accident, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>And so the kind of elephant in the room is

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<v Speaker 2>that the reason that we're not asking these questions through

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<v Speaker 2>the lens of humans making decisions that enrich sum and

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<v Speaker 2>to poperate others is because oftentimes the people who have

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<v Speaker 2>come from lineages of power and who are white, and men,

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<v Speaker 2>for the most part are the ones who then have

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<v Speaker 2>the platform, the resources, and the opportunities to do science

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<v Speaker 2>and lead science.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you know that most Ivy League schools didn't admit

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<v Speaker 1>women until the late nineteen sixties. Oh no women on

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<v Speaker 1>juries either until nineteen sixty eight.

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<v Speaker 2>Little sketchy. But Harvard University, Oh yeah, they were around

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<v Speaker 2>for two hundred and fourteen years before they admitted their

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<v Speaker 2>first black student. History. This is a basic, basic question.

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe not so smart, but does critical ecology examine how

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<v Speaker 1>inequality shapes the decisions we make or the impact that

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<v Speaker 1>it has or both? Is it on the front end

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<v Speaker 1>or the back end or is it all one big cycle?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Well, I think you can't thoroughly look at the

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<v Speaker 2>impacts without looking at the why, and so critical ecology is,

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<v Speaker 2>I would say, leans towards looking at the impacts because

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<v Speaker 2>what I'm really interested in and what I think the

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<v Speaker 2>field of ecology in general lax is kind of this

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<v Speaker 2>particular frame to look at how the natural environment is

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<v Speaker 2>getting shaped by these human conditions of inequality or equality.

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<v Speaker 2>And I like to talk about it in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>oppression versus liberation in situations where society is more oppressive.

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<v Speaker 2>There are particular types of patterns that also kind of emerge.

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<v Speaker 2>We use excess resources, we're very extractive. There isn't a

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<v Speaker 2>factoring in of the cost for taking resources out of

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<v Speaker 2>the environment at a really unsustainable rate or getting rid

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<v Speaker 2>of our waste, be it actual you know, trash or

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<v Speaker 2>pollution from different industrial activities. It's just kind of like

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<v Speaker 2>it's left, right, it's just enters the environment and it's

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<v Speaker 2>no longer our problem.

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<v Speaker 1>And do you have to look at the sociology of

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<v Speaker 1>things like why do some cultures perhaps not live in

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<v Speaker 1>the same harmony with nature as opposed to maybe dominating it.

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<v Speaker 1>Are there deep, deep cultural and sociological things where you

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<v Speaker 1>need to be like, get on the bat phone and

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<v Speaker 1>be like, I need someone, I need a cultural anthropologist

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<v Speaker 1>for this.

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<v Speaker 2>Totally, even though I'm trained as an ecologist and biogeochemist.

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<v Speaker 2>When I realized that, oh, I need to become a

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<v Speaker 2>student again and really think about and talk to people

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<v Speaker 2>who are in sociology and cultural theory and fields of

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<v Speaker 2>thought that explain how and why inequality comes up and

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<v Speaker 2>what it does, right, Like, inequality is not this random

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<v Speaker 2>thing that just crops up. It's constructed, it serves a

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<v Speaker 2>purpose for certain groups of people to have more power,

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<v Speaker 2>more agency, and more resources than other groups of people.

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<v Speaker 2>And what Critical Ecology is doing is saying these structures exist, right,

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<v Speaker 2>They're in our governments, they're in our social systems, they're

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<v Speaker 2>in our economic systems, and they really kind of set

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<v Speaker 2>up what our behaviors in society will be. And so

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<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to get in between the gap of our

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<v Speaker 2>Earth system is changing, our planet is not doing so great,

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<v Speaker 2>and all of these dimensions of ecosystems are responding to

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<v Speaker 2>that change. But what is it about these particular systematic

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<v Speaker 2>inequalities in society that brings about the conditions to let

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<v Speaker 2>those changes be possible? What about the lab?

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<v Speaker 1>Could you tell me a little bit about the Critical

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<v Speaker 1>Ecology Lab and like what projects were important for you

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<v Speaker 1>to start with, because I imagine you're just getting started.

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<v Speaker 1>You must have a list of shit that you want

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<v Speaker 1>to look into.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so long and I'm playing like extreme patience game

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<v Speaker 2>because it's like these things take a long time. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>but thank you for asking that.

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<v Speaker 1>So.

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<v Speaker 2>Critical Ecology Lab is a nonprofit research lab. What that

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<v Speaker 2>means is rather than being a lab group that is

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<v Speaker 2>based out of a particular university or another research institution.

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<v Speaker 2>I've chosen to form the Critical Ecology Lab independently. And

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<v Speaker 2>the reason is because kind of along the lines of

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<v Speaker 2>what you're mentioning, that histories of alienation and lack of

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<v Speaker 2>opportunities for people of color, queer people in science have

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<v Speaker 2>led to a real narrowing of the perspectives that are

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<v Speaker 2>included and supported and brought forward. And so that's part

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<v Speaker 2>of the culture of academia, that's part of all universities

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<v Speaker 2>and their histories for the most part, and it's true

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<v Speaker 2>for science and museums as well. And so it's really

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<v Speaker 2>difficult to be asking critical questions and asking questions about

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<v Speaker 2>power when you're actually within the institution that has facilitated

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<v Speaker 2>those power imbalances. I don't know if folks like realize this,

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<v Speaker 2>but science institutions, even though they're unfortunately not as well

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<v Speaker 2>funded as they should be relative to the global poor like,

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<v Speaker 2>science is as an institution super rich, and a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of times that money that comes from grants, that comes

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<v Speaker 2>from domnations endowments, can get funneled right back into the

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<v Speaker 2>power systems that Critical Ecology is trying to question. An

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<v Speaker 2>upend So that's a really roundabout way of saying that

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<v Speaker 2>critical ecology is a nonprofit and independent laboratory because we

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<v Speaker 2>want to operate outside of these really entrenched cultural norms

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<v Speaker 2>that we see in academia and so forth.

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<v Speaker 1>So doctor Pierre explained that a lot of systems environmentally

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<v Speaker 1>are built on the notions that some people's lives are

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<v Speaker 1>more important than others, and that some people's lands can

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<v Speaker 1>be exploited while others are protected. So she is drawn

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<v Speaker 1>to a multidisciplinary approach, kind of like using a microscope

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<v Speaker 1>and a telescope and a UV light to look at

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<v Speaker 1>what is happening and how it happened.

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<v Speaker 2>And so the whole idea of critical ecology is saying,

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<v Speaker 2>could we take ideas from critical theory, which is kind

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<v Speaker 2>of a social theory that holds that the world is

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<v Speaker 2>unequal and that much of the world is shaped by

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<v Speaker 2>that inequality, and that our work should be towards making

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<v Speaker 2>the world more equal, Like fundamentally, our academic work should

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<v Speaker 2>not just stay in the ivory tower, that it should

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<v Speaker 2>go out and make the world more just Can we

423
00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:26.000
<v Speaker 2>take those theories from the humanities and apply it to ecology.

424
00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:29.799
<v Speaker 2>And I wasn't seeing that being done elsewhere. So I'm

425
00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:33.480
<v Speaker 2>not the first person to use the phrase critical ecology,

426
00:24:33.799 --> 00:24:36.319
<v Speaker 2>but I am, i guess, the first person to talk

427
00:24:36.359 --> 00:24:40.680
<v Speaker 2>about it when it comes to actually measuring global change

428
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:45.319
<v Speaker 2>and the massive climate crisis that we're experiencing right now.

429
00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:51.799
<v Speaker 2>How do you determine what questions to chase first? Such

430
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:54.799
<v Speaker 2>a good question. So okay, it's it's actually like so

431
00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:57.240
<v Speaker 2>hard because I feel like I'm being pulled in a

432
00:24:57.240 --> 00:25:01.519
<v Speaker 2>lot of directions. Because some of this is about the past, right, Like,

433
00:25:01.599 --> 00:25:05.640
<v Speaker 2>inequality didn't start yesterday, and has it always existed? Yes,

434
00:25:06.440 --> 00:25:10.279
<v Speaker 2>So critical ecology is drawing me towards asking questions about

435
00:25:10.599 --> 00:25:14.039
<v Speaker 2>patterns of inequality in the past, patterns and systems of

436
00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:17.400
<v Speaker 2>oppression of the past. But it's also happening right now,

437
00:25:17.480 --> 00:25:20.319
<v Speaker 2>and so there are these contemporary issues as well. Sue

438
00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:23.799
<v Speaker 2>says that a community of researchers is stronger working together,

439
00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:27.440
<v Speaker 2>and that collaborators inspire questions that she never would have

440
00:25:27.480 --> 00:25:29.920
<v Speaker 2>thought to ask. And so an example of that is

441
00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:34.359
<v Speaker 2>in twenty nineteen or so, I had the pleasure of

442
00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:40.359
<v Speaker 2>meeting some archaeologists who study plantations, so they do archaeological

443
00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:44.480
<v Speaker 2>digs on former sugarcane plantation sites. This is an amazing

444
00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:48.799
<v Speaker 2>team of folks associated with the Society for Black Archaeologists

445
00:25:49.160 --> 00:25:53.079
<v Speaker 2>and the organization Diving with a Purpose. And so these folks,

446
00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:57.960
<v Speaker 2>including doctor Justin Dunnovant and doctor Ayana Fluellen, they were

447
00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:01.160
<v Speaker 2>just incredible speakers. I met when I was a postdoc

448
00:26:01.319 --> 00:26:04.759
<v Speaker 2>at UC Berkeley, and I was like, wait a second,

449
00:26:04.759 --> 00:26:08.240
<v Speaker 2>you're doing archaeology on plantations. I want to do ecology

450
00:26:08.279 --> 00:26:11.839
<v Speaker 2>on plantations. I want to ask questions about how the

451
00:26:11.880 --> 00:26:17.799
<v Speaker 2>ways that colonizers stole people, put those people to work

452
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:23.920
<v Speaker 2>on plantations and completely transformed landscapes, completely transform nutrient cycles

453
00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:27.519
<v Speaker 2>because of that forced labor. That is what I want

454
00:26:27.559 --> 00:26:31.400
<v Speaker 2>to study in ecology, and y'all are already doing it

455
00:26:32.039 --> 00:26:36.759
<v Speaker 2>in terms of understanding where these people lived, how they lived,

456
00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:39.440
<v Speaker 2>how many people were brought on these ships. And so

457
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:44.079
<v Speaker 2>through a collaboration with archaeologists, we've started looking at the

458
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:47.799
<v Speaker 2>ecology of plantations through a critical ecology lens, and right

459
00:26:47.839 --> 00:26:50.640
<v Speaker 2>now we're focusing on the US Virgin Islands, Saint Croix

460
00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:51.319
<v Speaker 2>in particular.

461
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:55.480
<v Speaker 1>So this project is called the Ecological Scars of Slave Plantations,

462
00:26:55.599 --> 00:26:57.880
<v Speaker 1>and the work is being done on a former Danish

463
00:26:57.960 --> 00:27:02.000
<v Speaker 1>sugar plantation called a state Little Princess, And part of

464
00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:04.160
<v Speaker 1>the reason work can be done there is that the

465
00:27:04.279 --> 00:27:07.359
<v Speaker 1>land was gifted to the Nature Conservancy in nineteen seventy one,

466
00:27:07.880 --> 00:27:11.079
<v Speaker 1>and several different research projects are underway on that land,

467
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:17.000
<v Speaker 1>from archaeological to nidariological which is corals, thank you very much,

468
00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:21.720
<v Speaker 1>and of course critical ecological. And if that land hadn't

469
00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:25.160
<v Speaker 1>been given away to an organization using it for this research,

470
00:27:25.559 --> 00:27:27.640
<v Speaker 1>a lot of the science and the history of that

471
00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:29.359
<v Speaker 1>island would go undiscovered.

472
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:31.960
<v Speaker 2>So that was just one way that I got drawn

473
00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:35.440
<v Speaker 2>into a particular place and a particular set of questions,

474
00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:38.440
<v Speaker 2>kind of by happenstance and like the fortune of meeting

475
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:40.359
<v Speaker 2>really awesome archaeologists.

476
00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:44.440
<v Speaker 1>What kind of data gets collected and analyzed if you're

477
00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:47.200
<v Speaker 1>a critical ecologist, because I'm sure that there are people

478
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:49.759
<v Speaker 1>being like, I didn't know this was an ology, I'm

479
00:27:49.759 --> 00:27:50.920
<v Speaker 1>all for it, signed me up.

480
00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:54.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it matters what kind of ecology you're interested in,

481
00:27:54.079 --> 00:27:58.079
<v Speaker 2>because critical ecology is just really a framework for folks

482
00:27:58.119 --> 00:28:02.000
<v Speaker 2>who go out and ask questions about ecosystems in general.

483
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:04.039
<v Speaker 2>Right like, right now, I'm working on a project where

484
00:28:04.440 --> 00:28:08.319
<v Speaker 2>I'm asking about how the Transatlantic slave trade has been

485
00:28:08.359 --> 00:28:12.920
<v Speaker 2>influential in shaping the structure and chemistry of soils in

486
00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:17.400
<v Speaker 2>the Caribbean, and soil is really important for vegetation, right,

487
00:28:17.480 --> 00:28:21.240
<v Speaker 2>like what plants grow, where, how well they do, and

488
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:24.319
<v Speaker 2>how they change over time. In like a traditional kind

489
00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:28.920
<v Speaker 2>of soil ecology and biogeochemistry framework, I would be like, okay,

490
00:28:29.960 --> 00:28:33.519
<v Speaker 2>soil erosion is a function of land use. Right, we

491
00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:37.400
<v Speaker 2>would just say land use blanket term, and we would say,

492
00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:40.119
<v Speaker 2>this is the duration of time you know that this

493
00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:43.799
<v Speaker 2>land was used to grow sugarcane. And we would say,

494
00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:48.519
<v Speaker 2>let's look at how soil structure, soil carbon and nitrogen

495
00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:52.039
<v Speaker 2>and so on and so forth were affected by this

496
00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:54.759
<v Speaker 2>particular land use given this amount of time that it

497
00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:55.319
<v Speaker 2>was happening.

498
00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:58.839
<v Speaker 1>So some ecologists might tackle the whats of the data,

499
00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:01.559
<v Speaker 1>like what is growing here and what kind of vegetation

500
00:29:01.759 --> 00:29:05.000
<v Speaker 1>took over after that land use, which is great, it's

501
00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:06.119
<v Speaker 1>good to know, But.

502
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:11.119
<v Speaker 2>Critically ecology would say, let's start from the premise of

503
00:29:11.960 --> 00:29:15.680
<v Speaker 2>this island was colonized for the express purpose of producing

504
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:19.799
<v Speaker 2>a certain quantity of sugar for Europe that had an

505
00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:24.400
<v Speaker 2>economic value, and how many enslaved people were required to

506
00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:28.079
<v Speaker 2>make that happen. So there's this component, this variable of

507
00:29:28.119 --> 00:29:32.200
<v Speaker 2>free labor, right, and that land use goes hand in

508
00:29:32.200 --> 00:29:35.240
<v Speaker 2>hand with it. So there's this consideration that we can

509
00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:39.160
<v Speaker 2>make that says, this amount of freedom had to be

510
00:29:39.200 --> 00:29:42.200
<v Speaker 2>taken away from this number of people over a certain

511
00:29:42.279 --> 00:29:46.519
<v Speaker 2>duration of time to produce the particular biophysical outcomes on

512
00:29:46.599 --> 00:29:50.279
<v Speaker 2>this soil. And so if I'm looking at a field

513
00:29:50.359 --> 00:29:52.440
<v Speaker 2>right that used to be a plantation, which is what

514
00:29:52.519 --> 00:29:55.599
<v Speaker 2>I do now, and I know based on records from

515
00:29:55.960 --> 00:29:59.000
<v Speaker 2>the Danish who colonized Saint Croix, the island where I'm working,

516
00:29:59.720 --> 00:30:03.400
<v Speaker 2>I be able to say, these people, these enslaved Africans,

517
00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:06.599
<v Speaker 2>had to work this amount of time for us to

518
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:11.920
<v Speaker 2>see the particular change in soil carbon, which we can

519
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:15.079
<v Speaker 2>kind of compare to a control right where the land

520
00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:19.240
<v Speaker 2>was not used for sugar cane production, which was left alone, right.

521
00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:23.119
<v Speaker 2>And so critically ecology adds this variable and looks for

522
00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:29.440
<v Speaker 2>different variables that express a level of oppression or freedom

523
00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:33.519
<v Speaker 2>that would not otherwise be accounted for pretty much. And

524
00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:37.240
<v Speaker 2>so then we can say, why do Caribbean forests look

525
00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:41.240
<v Speaker 2>the way they look? Right? Why are Caribbean forests structured

526
00:30:41.559 --> 00:30:43.839
<v Speaker 2>in a particular because so much of the Caribbean was

527
00:30:44.240 --> 00:30:48.799
<v Speaker 2>colonized right cut down completely, and then monocultures were put

528
00:30:48.839 --> 00:30:51.759
<v Speaker 2>in place and worked by enslaved people. So we can

529
00:30:51.799 --> 00:30:55.200
<v Speaker 2>start to look at whole regions differently, and so I

530
00:30:55.240 --> 00:30:59.319
<v Speaker 2>want to start to get ecologists and other environmental scientists

531
00:30:59.799 --> 00:31:02.519
<v Speaker 2>to to think about that when they go in and

532
00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:07.799
<v Speaker 2>make a plan to understand a changing landscape or seascape,

533
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:09.839
<v Speaker 2>depending on depending on where you work.

534
00:31:09.960 --> 00:31:14.079
<v Speaker 1>It reminds me almost of if you were looking at

535
00:31:14.359 --> 00:31:17.480
<v Speaker 1>tracks or footprints and the idea of just saying there's

536
00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:19.640
<v Speaker 1>a footprint here or there's a track here, and not

537
00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:21.759
<v Speaker 1>asking what kind of animal is it?

538
00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:24.359
<v Speaker 2>How big is that? Like where is it going? What?

539
00:31:24.440 --> 00:31:26.839
<v Speaker 2>You know? Like, yeah, how often does it come here?

540
00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:30.519
<v Speaker 2>Will it come here again? And if it stops happened,

541
00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:33.519
<v Speaker 2>what grows back where the tracks used to be? That's

542
00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:34.359
<v Speaker 2>exactly right.

543
00:31:34.680 --> 00:31:37.880
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much. Well, speaking of footprints too, the

544
00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:45.279
<v Speaker 1>carbon footprint fallacy promoted by oil companies or something that

545
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:49.240
<v Speaker 1>everyone should take, yeah, very very seriously, especially if they're

546
00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:54.880
<v Speaker 1>living in a society and a culture that over consumes resources.

547
00:31:55.599 --> 00:31:59.640
<v Speaker 2>How important is it? Oh my gosh, So I think

548
00:31:59.640 --> 00:32:01.920
<v Speaker 2>that the carbon footprint, like the first thing that you said.

549
00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:03.720
<v Speaker 2>Is it a fallacy? Is it just like made up

550
00:32:03.720 --> 00:32:09.640
<v Speaker 2>by companies? Yes? Also no, wait, what two things can

551
00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:16.240
<v Speaker 2>be true? I think that if individuals pay attention to

552
00:32:16.279 --> 00:32:21.279
<v Speaker 2>their carbon footprint, it's an opportunity for behavioral change, right

553
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:26.680
<v Speaker 2>as individuals, like we need tools to think about what

554
00:32:26.759 --> 00:32:29.119
<v Speaker 2>our day to day behaviors are connected to on a

555
00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:32.160
<v Speaker 2>bigger scale, it's really hard for us to do that.

556
00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:36.799
<v Speaker 2>That doesn't mean that individuals are all the way responsible

557
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:41.240
<v Speaker 2>for the massive changes that we're seeing in terms of

558
00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:43.759
<v Speaker 2>the way the climate is changing and the way that

559
00:32:43.960 --> 00:32:47.279
<v Speaker 2>ecosystems are responding to that climate, be it fire or

560
00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:51.400
<v Speaker 2>drought or flash floods and so forth. I think that we,

561
00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:54.880
<v Speaker 2>as individuals, as part of a culture and a society,

562
00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:58.319
<v Speaker 2>are responsible for nudging our culture to be different, to

563
00:32:58.400 --> 00:33:03.279
<v Speaker 2>be mindful and to be responsible, and to feel more

564
00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:07.519
<v Speaker 2>connected to what's happening on earth. But also like, let's

565
00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:11.200
<v Speaker 2>hold those fuckers accountable. I'm actually so sick of it,

566
00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:16.200
<v Speaker 2>and I think that, like the actual manipulation and gaslighting

567
00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:18.920
<v Speaker 2>has to stop. And so the fact that you ask

568
00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:21.519
<v Speaker 2>the question is amazing because it's like, let's like remind

569
00:33:21.559 --> 00:33:24.680
<v Speaker 2>one another that we are being gas lit by corporations

570
00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:28.960
<v Speaker 2>that have known as long as, if not before independence,

571
00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:33.680
<v Speaker 2>University scientists have known that the activity of extracting fossil

572
00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:36.720
<v Speaker 2>fuels and burning them will cause climate change. They knew

573
00:33:36.759 --> 00:33:40.680
<v Speaker 2>that shit, Okay, so that's been part of their backroom

574
00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:41.720
<v Speaker 2>conversation forever.

575
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:45.039
<v Speaker 1>You know, what's fun is that when someone gaslights you,

576
00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:50.759
<v Speaker 1>they're metaphorically burning fossil fuels. Lol, Like at least make

577
00:33:50.799 --> 00:33:54.000
<v Speaker 1>me question my own perception with like an LED bulb,

578
00:33:54.279 --> 00:33:54.480
<v Speaker 1>you know.

579
00:33:54.839 --> 00:33:57.160
<v Speaker 2>And so I want there to be like the edge

580
00:33:57.160 --> 00:34:01.200
<v Speaker 2>of resistance, but have that edge of resistance hold hands

581
00:34:01.240 --> 00:34:04.680
<v Speaker 2>with like our culture on a fundamental level needs to change.

582
00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:09.599
<v Speaker 1>And you mentioned something about being so interested in both

583
00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:12.599
<v Speaker 1>the past and the future. Do you feel like a

584
00:34:12.599 --> 00:34:17.320
<v Speaker 1>lot of what people suppose you do is just about, hey,

585
00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:19.840
<v Speaker 1>can you figure out how to fix this?

586
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:25.719
<v Speaker 2>Points to Earth, to Earth, what happened here? Yeah? I

587
00:34:25.719 --> 00:34:30.280
<v Speaker 2>think folks often make this like totally reasonably, Like they

588
00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:33.320
<v Speaker 2>think that what I'm talking about is just like environmental justice,

589
00:34:33.639 --> 00:34:36.159
<v Speaker 2>which is a really important area of work, but is

590
00:34:36.159 --> 00:34:41.239
<v Speaker 2>different from critical ecology. Environmental justice is responding to really

591
00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:45.800
<v Speaker 2>immediate harms that people are experiencing in their communities. Right now,

592
00:34:46.119 --> 00:34:48.360
<v Speaker 2>and they're trying to say, like, first of all, this

593
00:34:48.440 --> 00:34:52.000
<v Speaker 2>is happening, this isn't right, And environmental justice is trying

594
00:34:52.039 --> 00:34:56.159
<v Speaker 2>to transform the conditions for those people as well as

595
00:34:56.199 --> 00:34:56.880
<v Speaker 2>for the planet.

596
00:34:57.440 --> 00:35:00.800
<v Speaker 1>And doctor pr says, environmental justice is it's more forensic.

597
00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:04.679
<v Speaker 1>It's more about redress or setting things right, like with compensation.

598
00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:09.280
<v Speaker 1>And for example, one environmental justice issue is the disparity

599
00:35:09.320 --> 00:35:12.880
<v Speaker 1>between asthma rates in black and Puerto Rican children versus

600
00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:16.039
<v Speaker 1>white kids. One study found that black children in New

601
00:35:16.119 --> 00:35:18.960
<v Speaker 1>York were forty two percent more likely to have asthma

602
00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:24.440
<v Speaker 1>and that asthma related illnesses increased school absences in those populations,

603
00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:27.480
<v Speaker 1>which has lifelong effects. And there was a twenty seventeen

604
00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:30.400
<v Speaker 1>Princeton study titled is it Who You Are or Where

605
00:35:30.440 --> 00:35:34.960
<v Speaker 1>You Live? Residential Segregation and Racial Gaps in childhood Asthma,

606
00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:38.519
<v Speaker 1>And those researchers found that it's not race, but neighborhood

607
00:35:38.559 --> 00:35:42.960
<v Speaker 1>pollution and ongoing effects of segregation that can nearly double

608
00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:46.360
<v Speaker 1>the risk of asthma and lead to higher asthma related

609
00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:49.920
<v Speaker 1>deaths later in life. So that would be environmental justice

610
00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:54.039
<v Speaker 1>work and epidemiology. But what's the even bigger picture?

611
00:35:54.519 --> 00:35:58.920
<v Speaker 2>But Critically ecology is saying that's super important, and that's

612
00:35:59.079 --> 00:36:03.800
<v Speaker 2>influencing humans, it's influencing ecological patterns. But what about if

613
00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:08.320
<v Speaker 2>we zoom out. Critical ecology is asking questions about systems

614
00:36:08.360 --> 00:36:10.639
<v Speaker 2>of oppression, and that gets to the heart of the

615
00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:17.599
<v Speaker 2>ideologies that will allow certain patterns of unfair treatment to unfold.

616
00:36:18.320 --> 00:36:21.239
<v Speaker 2>And then we're interested in, well, what are the environmental

617
00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:24.880
<v Speaker 2>consequences if we look at plant communities, if we look

618
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:29.480
<v Speaker 2>at the quality of soils, if we look at nutrient cycles.

619
00:36:29.880 --> 00:36:35.280
<v Speaker 2>Our ecosystems today in twenty twenty two really being shaped

620
00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:39.440
<v Speaker 2>on this larger scale by forces that we couldn't even

621
00:36:39.519 --> 00:36:43.840
<v Speaker 2>notice if we weren't thinking about these patterns of haves

622
00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:48.239
<v Speaker 2>and have nots right that come from unfair systems. That's

623
00:36:48.440 --> 00:36:53.239
<v Speaker 2>a little bit about redress, like getting people their justice,

624
00:36:53.880 --> 00:36:57.880
<v Speaker 2>but it's also about everyone right because it's saying the

625
00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:02.880
<v Speaker 2>way that ecosystems are evolving and changing into the future

626
00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:06.880
<v Speaker 2>depend on either us getting it now and really seeing

627
00:37:06.920 --> 00:37:10.440
<v Speaker 2>these patterns and figuring out what about us drives it

628
00:37:10.760 --> 00:37:16.519
<v Speaker 2>right ecology and then course correcting like what can ecosystems

629
00:37:16.599 --> 00:37:19.639
<v Speaker 2>start to look like and patterns of nutrient cycling and

630
00:37:19.719 --> 00:37:25.159
<v Speaker 2>vegetation assemblages and animal trophic interactions look like when we

631
00:37:25.320 --> 00:37:30.320
<v Speaker 2>course correct towards more equitable interactions with nature and patterns

632
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:30.920
<v Speaker 2>in society.

633
00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:33.440
<v Speaker 1>So if you clicked on this title of this episode

634
00:37:33.480 --> 00:37:36.320
<v Speaker 1>and thought critical ecology, here we go. It's going to

635
00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:40.480
<v Speaker 1>be controversial. Just know that in the US there's been

636
00:37:40.519 --> 00:37:45.440
<v Speaker 1>blowback of the word critical in favor of more quote

637
00:37:45.480 --> 00:37:50.679
<v Speaker 1>patriotic education. But just the word critical and critical theory

638
00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:55.199
<v Speaker 1>pretty much means how is old stuff still affecting new stuff?

639
00:37:55.239 --> 00:37:57.679
<v Speaker 1>And how can we make things more equitable? But by

640
00:37:57.719 --> 00:38:00.760
<v Speaker 1>making it this hot button topic and contra cosial, some

641
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:06.159
<v Speaker 1>states have passed laws restricting even education about race in classrooms.

642
00:38:06.360 --> 00:38:08.880
<v Speaker 1>If you're like, is that cool, consider the fact that

643
00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:12.920
<v Speaker 1>Germany isn't forbidding schools from mentioning the Holocaust because that

644
00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:15.480
<v Speaker 1>would be terrifying and a big problem. Right, we have

645
00:38:15.559 --> 00:38:18.519
<v Speaker 1>to learn from history and examine systems that are harming people.

646
00:38:18.599 --> 00:38:21.239
<v Speaker 1>It seems like that's what schools for. But this episode

647
00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:24.079
<v Speaker 1>is about the science of critical ecology in an era

648
00:38:24.199 --> 00:38:29.400
<v Speaker 1>of significant climate impact. What do you wish was taught

649
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:33.880
<v Speaker 1>alongside high school science classes? What do you feel like

650
00:38:34.039 --> 00:38:36.800
<v Speaker 1>is so glaringly missing?

651
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:41.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh, my dream. The best thing that I

652
00:38:41.400 --> 00:38:46.559
<v Speaker 2>could ask for is if history and social studies teachers

653
00:38:47.800 --> 00:38:52.960
<v Speaker 2>had biology and chemistry and environmental science teachers that would

654
00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:56.559
<v Speaker 2>sit down with them and that there was actually a framework,

655
00:38:56.639 --> 00:38:59.880
<v Speaker 2>a language that let these different teachers talk to each

656
00:38:59.920 --> 00:39:03.960
<v Speaker 2>other and come up with lessons and labs that relate

657
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:07.679
<v Speaker 2>to one another. Right, Like, imagine if we were teaching

658
00:39:07.800 --> 00:39:13.480
<v Speaker 2>students about plantations in the US Southeast and they're learning

659
00:39:13.559 --> 00:39:17.800
<v Speaker 2>about how cotton and tobacco and sugar cane were being grown,

660
00:39:18.599 --> 00:39:23.000
<v Speaker 2>and then they go into their biology class and got

661
00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:27.079
<v Speaker 2>to look at, well, let's learn about the actual physiology

662
00:39:27.239 --> 00:39:30.880
<v Speaker 2>of sugarcane, right, like it's a grass. I don't think

663
00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:33.400
<v Speaker 2>most high school students get to learn that when you

664
00:39:33.880 --> 00:39:37.840
<v Speaker 2>process sugarcane, there's all of this refuse that's left behind

665
00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:40.679
<v Speaker 2>after you harvest the sugar, and where does that go?

666
00:39:41.320 --> 00:39:43.599
<v Speaker 2>And what if you could teach a biology lab or

667
00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:46.480
<v Speaker 2>a chemistry lab that gets students to think about, like,

668
00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:50.360
<v Speaker 2>what are the physical consequences of the fact that our

669
00:39:50.440 --> 00:39:56.039
<v Speaker 2>country was run economically by plantations? And what if students

670
00:39:56.119 --> 00:39:59.280
<v Speaker 2>had this holistic understanding, how much better would we actually

671
00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:04.199
<v Speaker 2>understand the dicament our countries in like everyone's just kind

672
00:40:04.199 --> 00:40:07.159
<v Speaker 2>of baffled about, like it's just so unfair and the

673
00:40:07.159 --> 00:40:10.320
<v Speaker 2>world is unequal, and you know, slavery is bad, and

674
00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:12.639
<v Speaker 2>now we're experiencing climate change and I'm kind of just

675
00:40:12.679 --> 00:40:14.880
<v Speaker 2>like yeah, but if you put them all together, it

676
00:40:14.920 --> 00:40:17.519
<v Speaker 2>really tracks like it all kind of adds up. The

677
00:40:17.559 --> 00:40:18.199
<v Speaker 2>math is good.

678
00:40:18.840 --> 00:40:21.440
<v Speaker 1>And as long as we're talking school, let's play a

679
00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:24.400
<v Speaker 1>quiz game for fun. And please note the word fun

680
00:40:24.519 --> 00:40:28.639
<v Speaker 1>is in air quotes. What other questions do you want

681
00:40:28.679 --> 00:40:33.039
<v Speaker 1>to ask or answer about? Things like fish and so

682
00:40:33.159 --> 00:40:35.679
<v Speaker 1>many I know, like name a thing, name a thing.

683
00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:37.719
<v Speaker 1>We'll do a pop quiz. Tell me if this involves

684
00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:42.880
<v Speaker 1>critical ecology? Okay, logging deforestation.

685
00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:47.119
<v Speaker 2>Hondo p I'm one million percent. That's not a percent.

686
00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:51.480
<v Speaker 2>Don't come for me. Logging deforestation. If we think about

687
00:40:51.559 --> 00:40:54.679
<v Speaker 2>who had access? Okay, I love this question so much.

688
00:40:55.239 --> 00:40:59.320
<v Speaker 2>Start from the basics, whose land was it right? Someone

689
00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:02.079
<v Speaker 2>had to come and steal land from indigenous people? The

690
00:41:02.079 --> 00:41:05.039
<v Speaker 2>fundamental principle of critical ecology would be start with that.

691
00:41:05.519 --> 00:41:08.800
<v Speaker 2>And so if you're interested in forest succession, and you're

692
00:41:08.840 --> 00:41:12.440
<v Speaker 2>interested in why we have secondary and tertiary forests in

693
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:15.880
<v Speaker 2>certain places that were logged. Why don't we start by

694
00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:19.320
<v Speaker 2>asking the question whose land was it and what allowed

695
00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:22.480
<v Speaker 2>it to be taken away from them? And that would

696
00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:26.000
<v Speaker 2>go to the basic principles of removal of indigenous people,

697
00:41:26.159 --> 00:41:30.239
<v Speaker 2>either by murder or by giving them reservations and moving

698
00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:33.280
<v Speaker 2>them to parts of the country that were not their homes.

699
00:41:33.559 --> 00:41:36.440
<v Speaker 1>So, in a May twenty twenty one Atlantic article titled

700
00:41:36.519 --> 00:41:39.800
<v Speaker 1>Return the National Parks to the Tribes, a Jibwah author

701
00:41:40.039 --> 00:41:43.960
<v Speaker 1>David Troyer writes, quote, the American story of the Indian

702
00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:48.039
<v Speaker 1>is one of staggering loss. In fourteen ninety one, native

703
00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:51.840
<v Speaker 1>people controlled all of the two point four billion acres

704
00:41:51.920 --> 00:41:55.400
<v Speaker 1>that would become the United States. Now we control about

705
00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:59.400
<v Speaker 1>fifty six million acres, or roughly two percent. Speaking of

706
00:41:59.440 --> 00:42:01.360
<v Speaker 1>stealing things, and then.

707
00:42:01.239 --> 00:42:04.159
<v Speaker 2>We think about like one critically qualite, don't scoop me

708
00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:11.360
<v Speaker 2>you out there, But I'm so shady, don't scoop. I'm

709
00:42:11.360 --> 00:42:17.239
<v Speaker 2>so interested in patterns of forest re growth throughout North

710
00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:21.840
<v Speaker 2>America as they're related to the removal and movement of

711
00:42:21.880 --> 00:42:25.000
<v Speaker 2>Indigenous people. And I'm sure that there are indigenous scholars

712
00:42:25.039 --> 00:42:28.239
<v Speaker 2>who are maybe listening. Shout out to y'all who are like, yeah, girl,

713
00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:31.280
<v Speaker 2>we already think about this, But until I have that conversation,

714
00:42:31.480 --> 00:42:35.599
<v Speaker 2>I'm really curious about how does the cover of forest

715
00:42:35.679 --> 00:42:39.639
<v Speaker 2>in the United States or in North America reflect the

716
00:42:39.679 --> 00:42:45.239
<v Speaker 2>pattern of removal of Indigenous people and the accessibility of

717
00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:50.960
<v Speaker 2>permits or deeds to land that were basically given out

718
00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:54.960
<v Speaker 2>for fucking pennies. And I would love to do this

719
00:42:55.079 --> 00:42:59.800
<v Speaker 2>kind of tandem analysis of the financial value of for

720
00:43:00.039 --> 00:43:03.159
<v Speaker 2>rists now that are going to make somebody roll rich,

721
00:43:03.800 --> 00:43:07.760
<v Speaker 2>and how they were given to people essentially for a

722
00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:12.679
<v Speaker 2>comparably minuscule amount of money. But alongside this really unfair

723
00:43:12.719 --> 00:43:17.559
<v Speaker 2>transaction is also just carbon and nitrogen, And so what

724
00:43:17.719 --> 00:43:22.440
<v Speaker 2>is the amount of carbon and nitrogen that are stored

725
00:43:22.519 --> 00:43:26.639
<v Speaker 2>in these forests relative to the amount of money that

726
00:43:27.079 --> 00:43:29.000
<v Speaker 2>unfairly traded hands.

727
00:43:29.199 --> 00:43:32.480
<v Speaker 1>So, as we discussed in the Indigenous Fire Ecology episode,

728
00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:36.400
<v Speaker 1>the loss of knowledge and agency to practice cultural burns

729
00:43:36.599 --> 00:43:41.960
<v Speaker 1>another land stewardship has led to catastrophic damage and increasing

730
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:45.760
<v Speaker 1>wildfire losses because that land was taken from a populace

731
00:43:45.800 --> 00:43:47.199
<v Speaker 1>that knew how to.

732
00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:48.159
<v Speaker 2>Care for it best.

733
00:43:48.599 --> 00:43:52.719
<v Speaker 1>So, now as the nation finds itself in this ecological pickle,

734
00:43:53.079 --> 00:43:56.400
<v Speaker 1>science is going back to that indigenous knowledge for answers.

735
00:43:57.039 --> 00:44:00.599
<v Speaker 1>Speaking of answers, let's keep this quiz of sart going.

736
00:44:00.920 --> 00:44:04.800
<v Speaker 1>What about this one over fishing air quotes for the

737
00:44:04.840 --> 00:44:06.480
<v Speaker 1>consumption that we are demanding?

738
00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:10.199
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh. Yeah. So what if I think of

739
00:44:10.239 --> 00:44:13.320
<v Speaker 2>that and through like a critical ecology perspective, I think

740
00:44:13.320 --> 00:44:16.760
<v Speaker 2>about consumption in terms of where demand is coming from

741
00:44:17.239 --> 00:44:20.760
<v Speaker 2>and what is making that demand possible, Right, Like, people

742
00:44:20.800 --> 00:44:24.159
<v Speaker 2>don't want things that are too expensive to want. People

743
00:44:24.199 --> 00:44:27.239
<v Speaker 2>want things that are affordable, if not cheap. And what

744
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:31.199
<v Speaker 2>makes things cheap, What makes fish cheap. There's people who

745
00:44:31.239 --> 00:44:34.360
<v Speaker 2>have to do the fishing and then access to the fish,

746
00:44:34.559 --> 00:44:38.239
<v Speaker 2>and so it's a matter of who's doing it right,

747
00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:41.800
<v Speaker 2>the cost or value of their labor, and then who's

748
00:44:41.840 --> 00:44:43.360
<v Speaker 2>giving out permits right.

749
00:44:43.599 --> 00:44:47.239
<v Speaker 1>In the Oceanology episode, doctor Ayana Elizabeth Johnson pointed out

750
00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:50.440
<v Speaker 1>that for many coastal cultures, fishing is their livelihood and

751
00:44:50.440 --> 00:44:52.800
<v Speaker 1>has been their core diet for tens of thousands of years.

752
00:44:53.159 --> 00:44:56.159
<v Speaker 1>But the indigenous folks who are fishing there are likely

753
00:44:56.199 --> 00:44:59.880
<v Speaker 1>not the same demographic as those who own the fisheries

754
00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:04.280
<v Speaker 1>doing the least sustainable practices and catches. So from the

755
00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:07.920
<v Speaker 1>mountains to the seas, to the air, to the ore

756
00:45:08.199 --> 00:45:12.480
<v Speaker 1>in the earth. There is critical ecology everywhere, and doctor

757
00:45:12.519 --> 00:45:15.760
<v Speaker 1>Pierre's Critical Ecology Lab has also helped facilitate a study

758
00:45:15.800 --> 00:45:19.519
<v Speaker 1>on air quality and urban and rural settings, research on

759
00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:24.719
<v Speaker 1>using incarcerated laborers in fighting forest fires. And because of

760
00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:28.079
<v Speaker 1>so many factors, from rising temperatures to the loss of

761
00:45:28.159 --> 00:45:31.960
<v Speaker 1>these regular cultural burns, these kinds of issues are likely

762
00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:35.280
<v Speaker 1>just going to be on the rise. And just this week,

763
00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:37.760
<v Speaker 1>the US Department of Energy reported that in the next

764
00:45:37.800 --> 00:45:42.440
<v Speaker 1>thirty years, Californians will experience triple digit temperatures for four

765
00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:45.320
<v Speaker 1>months out of the year. So right now you may

766
00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:49.320
<v Speaker 1>be sweating for many reasons and wondering do we even

767
00:45:49.440 --> 00:45:52.639
<v Speaker 1>have a chance. You know, we're talking a little bit

768
00:45:52.719 --> 00:46:00.440
<v Speaker 1>about just environmental nihilism and just the idea of when

769
00:46:00.440 --> 00:46:05.639
<v Speaker 1>do we give up? And is it equitable for anyone

770
00:46:05.679 --> 00:46:07.760
<v Speaker 1>to give up at any time. But if we look

771
00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:09.880
<v Speaker 1>at ourselves as a species and say, as a species

772
00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:11.639
<v Speaker 1>we are doing not great things to the planet that

773
00:46:11.719 --> 00:46:17.360
<v Speaker 1>might endanger all of us, how fightable is it or

774
00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:18.920
<v Speaker 1>how much do you just have to say, well, I

775
00:46:18.920 --> 00:46:20.800
<v Speaker 1>guess we're one of the ninety nine point nine percent

776
00:46:21.400 --> 00:46:25.280
<v Speaker 1>of species to go extinct in this case because of

777
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:28.280
<v Speaker 1>a percentage of people who over consumed.

778
00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:31.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think it's unethical for us as human

779
00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:36.039
<v Speaker 2>beings to like hang on in that way if we're

780
00:46:36.079 --> 00:46:40.320
<v Speaker 2>not also actively and earnestly interested in being different.

781
00:46:41.079 --> 00:46:46.000
<v Speaker 1>Doctor Pierre likens this like to an abusive partner that

782
00:46:46.159 --> 00:46:49.639
<v Speaker 1>knows they're doing harm but has no interest in accountability

783
00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:53.480
<v Speaker 1>or change. And maybe the resistance or fear of critical

784
00:46:53.519 --> 00:46:55.840
<v Speaker 1>theory is kind of like a partner who's suffering with

785
00:46:55.880 --> 00:46:58.519
<v Speaker 1>a problem in harming others but doesn't even want to

786
00:46:58.559 --> 00:47:03.239
<v Speaker 1>go unpack that in counseling. Also, if you're just shrugging, thinking, well,

787
00:47:03.239 --> 00:47:07.199
<v Speaker 1>we're all going to die, so what TikTok I thought?

788
00:47:07.320 --> 00:47:10.480
<v Speaker 1>That was just called despair, But when taken to an

789
00:47:10.480 --> 00:47:14.239
<v Speaker 1>extreme ideology, is that seek to just hasten our own

790
00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:16.880
<v Speaker 1>extinction for the sake of the planet. That's actually called

791
00:47:16.920 --> 00:47:19.400
<v Speaker 1>eco fascism. So there's a word for that, and it's

792
00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:22.159
<v Speaker 1>not a good thing. So Sue says, to try to

793
00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:25.599
<v Speaker 1>get involved on a human to human level, examine the

794
00:47:25.639 --> 00:47:28.760
<v Speaker 1>power structures that keep things bad for some people, and

795
00:47:28.840 --> 00:47:30.719
<v Speaker 1>don't shrug yourself into inaction.

796
00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:34.480
<v Speaker 2>If you are just saying like woe is me. We

797
00:47:34.599 --> 00:47:37.880
<v Speaker 2>are bad for the planet, bad for other species, and

798
00:47:38.280 --> 00:47:40.159
<v Speaker 2>I'm just going to kind of wait for this like

799
00:47:40.199 --> 00:47:43.960
<v Speaker 2>shit show to kind of play out. Then you are

800
00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:47.360
<v Speaker 2>the harm, right, But if you allow the depressing reality

801
00:47:47.440 --> 00:47:50.000
<v Speaker 2>to kind of make decisions for you about what you're

802
00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:52.079
<v Speaker 2>going to do, like I mean, yeah, and you're probably

803
00:47:52.119 --> 00:47:55.000
<v Speaker 2>more harm than good, then it is a toxic relationship

804
00:47:55.000 --> 00:47:57.280
<v Speaker 2>on the story front. But yeah, totally don't just sit

805
00:47:57.320 --> 00:47:57.840
<v Speaker 2>on your hands.

806
00:47:57.920 --> 00:48:02.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but yeah, do you ever just lay in bed

807
00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:05.039
<v Speaker 1>at night and the like the jiff of the woman

808
00:48:05.079 --> 00:48:05.960
<v Speaker 1>who just has.

809
00:48:05.800 --> 00:48:08.280
<v Speaker 2>Like I hate my life for that, do you know

810
00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:08.679
<v Speaker 2>what I mean?

811
00:48:08.719 --> 00:48:12.320
<v Speaker 1>Like the no geometry I'm thinking, like staring off thinking

812
00:48:12.920 --> 00:48:17.400
<v Speaker 1>just when it comes to the not only consumption that

813
00:48:17.480 --> 00:48:20.440
<v Speaker 1>we have, especially in a capitalist society, but just also

814
00:48:20.039 --> 00:48:24.119
<v Speaker 1>the hoarding of resources. Gosh, another harmful thought that we

815
00:48:24.159 --> 00:48:27.000
<v Speaker 1>have been fed, the too many humans one. I know

816
00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:29.679
<v Speaker 1>that overpopulation is looked at a lot as like there's

817
00:48:29.679 --> 00:48:32.039
<v Speaker 1>too many of us. I thought that for a long

818
00:48:32.079 --> 00:48:35.079
<v Speaker 1>time too, And we have enough resources to sustain the

819
00:48:35.159 --> 00:48:38.239
<v Speaker 1>number of people, but a lot of folks maybe are

820
00:48:38.280 --> 00:48:40.199
<v Speaker 1>hoarding the resources.

821
00:48:39.760 --> 00:48:42.960
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, and so this gets at like I love that

822
00:48:43.000 --> 00:48:45.639
<v Speaker 2>you asked it because it gets at the question of scale.

823
00:48:46.039 --> 00:48:48.920
<v Speaker 2>There are critical ecology questions that can be asked like

824
00:48:49.599 --> 00:48:52.400
<v Speaker 2>very hyper local. But then they are like you're saying,

825
00:48:52.440 --> 00:48:54.440
<v Speaker 2>like if we really zoom out, like when we think

826
00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:59.719
<v Speaker 2>about global population, that there's this misconception, and I don't

827
00:48:59.719 --> 00:49:02.000
<v Speaker 2>think it. It's just like an accidental misconception. I think

828
00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:04.920
<v Speaker 2>you're kind of alluding to like we thought, but actually

829
00:49:05.000 --> 00:49:08.840
<v Speaker 2>it's this line that overpopulation is like one of the

830
00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:12.239
<v Speaker 2>main reasons that we're in the particular ecological crisis we're in,

831
00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:17.559
<v Speaker 2>and that's simply not true. If all people had even

832
00:49:17.679 --> 00:49:21.880
<v Speaker 2>access to the resources available, and if those resources were

833
00:49:22.119 --> 00:49:25.280
<v Speaker 2>managed sustainably, we would not be in the predicament that

834
00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:29.679
<v Speaker 2>we're in. Given that, I know, it's such it's a

835
00:49:29.719 --> 00:49:31.920
<v Speaker 2>real bummer when you're like, oh, it's just what we're doing.

836
00:49:31.960 --> 00:49:35.360
<v Speaker 2>It's just like because we like to be fucking assholes. Yeah, yeah,

837
00:49:35.440 --> 00:49:38.960
<v Speaker 2>it is. Unfortunately it's really not much more complicated than that.

838
00:49:39.400 --> 00:49:43.320
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I think a lot about where resources get hoarded,

839
00:49:43.400 --> 00:49:46.480
<v Speaker 2>and I mean, like the countries that end up having

840
00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:50.480
<v Speaker 2>like global wealth and wealth like though it's money is

841
00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:56.159
<v Speaker 2>an idea, basically it represents stuff and stuff is made

842
00:49:56.199 --> 00:49:59.920
<v Speaker 2>of carbon. Stuff is made of all of those nutrients

843
00:50:00.119 --> 00:50:03.880
<v Speaker 2>I study, and stuff takes energy right to create. And

844
00:50:03.960 --> 00:50:07.880
<v Speaker 2>so if we think about the fact that who keeps

845
00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:11.239
<v Speaker 2>those resources and how they were collected in the first place,

846
00:50:11.440 --> 00:50:14.880
<v Speaker 2>it really takes us to asking questions about racial capitalism.

847
00:50:15.400 --> 00:50:20.079
<v Speaker 2>It takes us to asking questions fundamentally about colonialism and imperialism.

848
00:50:20.559 --> 00:50:23.679
<v Speaker 2>And so if we're not able to do our science

849
00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:28.440
<v Speaker 2>and study the distribution of resources or lack of resources

850
00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:33.760
<v Speaker 2>and the ecological consequences of massive wealth or massive poverty,

851
00:50:34.199 --> 00:50:37.440
<v Speaker 2>we're really kind of missing the point, if that makes sense.

852
00:50:37.840 --> 00:50:39.800
<v Speaker 2>But I think that really proves that I am that

853
00:50:39.920 --> 00:50:43.239
<v Speaker 2>woman and that meme, Like that's my brain, Like I'm

854
00:50:43.239 --> 00:50:45.800
<v Speaker 2>constantly just like I really need to find the actual

855
00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:48.239
<v Speaker 2>words that are useful for human beings to know what

856
00:50:48.280 --> 00:50:50.840
<v Speaker 2>the fuck I'm talking about. And I'm working on it. People,

857
00:50:50.840 --> 00:50:52.000
<v Speaker 2>I have a lifetime out of me.

858
00:50:52.440 --> 00:50:55.599
<v Speaker 1>This meme side note is known as math Lady, and

859
00:50:55.679 --> 00:50:59.159
<v Speaker 1>the actress with the furrowed brow and the pensive gaze

860
00:50:59.239 --> 00:51:02.039
<v Speaker 1>is often mistaken for Julia Roberts, but it's a Brazilian

861
00:51:02.159 --> 00:51:06.400
<v Speaker 1>telenovella Superstar for not a Sora, and she's playing a

862
00:51:06.440 --> 00:51:09.800
<v Speaker 1>scene in a jail, and then later that footage was

863
00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:13.840
<v Speaker 1>overlaid with mathematical equations. But Sue gets to make all

864
00:51:13.880 --> 00:51:17.119
<v Speaker 1>of these complex connections and ask questions that have not

865
00:51:17.159 --> 00:51:20.719
<v Speaker 1>been asked about not just what is happening, but why

866
00:51:21.000 --> 00:51:21.480
<v Speaker 1>and how?

867
00:51:21.920 --> 00:51:23.760
<v Speaker 2>And honestly, the.

868
00:51:23.719 --> 00:51:28.880
<v Speaker 1>Biggest takeaway about critical ecology in a nutshell is this.

869
00:51:29.079 --> 00:51:32.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that I'm asking these magical, brilliant questions.

870
00:51:32.039 --> 00:51:35.159
<v Speaker 2>I'm literally just like y'all. Have y'all ever noticed? Yeah,

871
00:51:35.199 --> 00:51:38.119
<v Speaker 2>but the thing that's awkwardly like controlling all of our lives,

872
00:51:38.519 --> 00:51:42.440
<v Speaker 2>shaping biology and chemistry and ecology. And then once I

873
00:51:42.480 --> 00:51:46.199
<v Speaker 2>say it, everyone's like, girl, Yes, So what I think

874
00:51:46.239 --> 00:51:51.119
<v Speaker 2>of critical ecology is actually just you know, when you

875
00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:53.159
<v Speaker 2>see like a detective show or like a crime show,

876
00:51:53.199 --> 00:51:54.880
<v Speaker 2>and then there's the wall with the lines and all

877
00:51:54.920 --> 00:51:57.920
<v Speaker 2>the thumbtacks and it's just like a lot of string

878
00:51:58.119 --> 00:52:01.559
<v Speaker 2>people are mired in. They're just like, it's all connected,

879
00:52:01.880 --> 00:52:07.239
<v Speaker 2>but we don't have one approachable and reproducible system of

880
00:52:07.280 --> 00:52:10.840
<v Speaker 2>thinking that helps us to guide us to then ask

881
00:52:10.880 --> 00:52:13.280
<v Speaker 2>these questions all over the place, just like you're asking me.

882
00:52:13.480 --> 00:52:17.639
<v Speaker 2>So critical ecology is like we're only confused because it's

883
00:52:17.920 --> 00:52:22.039
<v Speaker 2>really hard to make those connections when science and social

884
00:52:22.039 --> 00:52:26.280
<v Speaker 2>science and humanities don't talk to each other. And if

885
00:52:26.280 --> 00:52:27.880
<v Speaker 2>we can figure out how to make them talk to

886
00:52:27.920 --> 00:52:30.679
<v Speaker 2>each other and do it in such a way that

887
00:52:31.239 --> 00:52:33.320
<v Speaker 2>we can pick it up and apply it in all

888
00:52:33.400 --> 00:52:37.840
<v Speaker 2>these different areas, finally we're going to be explaining why

889
00:52:37.880 --> 00:52:40.719
<v Speaker 2>we're at where we're at in a way that that

890
00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:44.239
<v Speaker 2>might actually lead us out the door towards a better planet,

891
00:52:44.639 --> 00:52:48.039
<v Speaker 2>a more equal and liberated society. Can I ask you

892
00:52:48.079 --> 00:52:50.480
<v Speaker 2>patreon questions? Questions from people on Patreon?

893
00:52:50.519 --> 00:52:53.400
<v Speaker 1>Of course they know you're coming on, And before your questions,

894
00:52:53.400 --> 00:52:55.840
<v Speaker 1>a quick break, And before that break, we donate to

895
00:52:55.920 --> 00:52:58.840
<v Speaker 1>a charity of the cologies choosing and naturally, this is

896
00:52:58.840 --> 00:53:02.639
<v Speaker 1>going to the Critical Ecology that's Critical ecology Lab dot

897
00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:06.519
<v Speaker 1>org and Critical Ecology Lab is a space to investigate

898
00:53:06.559 --> 00:53:09.599
<v Speaker 1>and explain how the natural world, from soils to the

899
00:53:09.599 --> 00:53:14.760
<v Speaker 1>atmosphere has been shaped by racial and cultural supremacy, natural

900
00:53:14.800 --> 00:53:18.119
<v Speaker 1>resource exploitation, and social exclusion. So you can learn more

901
00:53:18.119 --> 00:53:20.800
<v Speaker 1>at Critical Ecology Lab dot org. There's a link in

902
00:53:20.840 --> 00:53:22.920
<v Speaker 1>the show notes. Thank you to sponsors for making our

903
00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:27.840
<v Speaker 1>donation possible. Okay, so this first question was asked almost

904
00:53:27.960 --> 00:53:31.840
<v Speaker 1>verbatim by so many people, including Amy Naramatsu, Michael McLeod,

905
00:53:31.960 --> 00:53:36.119
<v Speaker 1>Riley Allison, Francesca Huggins, Lucy Kenny, Gabby Sweet and Mark

906
00:53:36.199 --> 00:53:41.599
<v Speaker 1>Hulette and more. The most thumbed up question we got.

907
00:53:42.320 --> 00:53:46.800
<v Speaker 2>I think it's a good one, Okay. Amy Naramatsu wants

908
00:53:46.880 --> 00:53:50.760
<v Speaker 2>you hi, Amy wants just simple how fuck are we? Oh?

909
00:53:50.840 --> 00:53:55.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean I appreciate Amy asking that question because a million,

910
00:53:56.280 --> 00:53:58.559
<v Speaker 2>and by a million, I mean, like several hundred climate

911
00:53:58.599 --> 00:54:01.880
<v Speaker 2>scientists have been asked that very question and their answers

912
00:54:02.039 --> 00:54:04.519
<v Speaker 2>probably very and you know, like for the most part,

913
00:54:04.599 --> 00:54:08.679
<v Speaker 2>like we're like fairly fucked. Like I'm not going to

914
00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:12.480
<v Speaker 2>split hairs about that, but my real answer is that

915
00:54:12.599 --> 00:54:18.119
<v Speaker 2>we are as fucked as people are unwilling to change.

916
00:54:18.920 --> 00:54:22.960
<v Speaker 2>We are as fucked as individuals, like not just the

917
00:54:23.000 --> 00:54:26.880
<v Speaker 2>systems of oppression, but we're as fucked as individuals are

918
00:54:27.320 --> 00:54:31.880
<v Speaker 2>willing to look closely at how they behave and treat

919
00:54:31.920 --> 00:54:35.320
<v Speaker 2>other people and admit that they are wrong in their

920
00:54:35.639 --> 00:54:41.800
<v Speaker 2>regular individual lives. Because it is like our behavior and

921
00:54:41.920 --> 00:54:43.840
<v Speaker 2>our ways of thinking and our ways of treating other

922
00:54:43.880 --> 00:54:48.880
<v Speaker 2>people that metastasize into systems of oppression. And those systems

923
00:54:48.920 --> 00:54:53.599
<v Speaker 2>of oppression have allowed us to indiscriminately toss people off

924
00:54:53.639 --> 00:54:57.079
<v Speaker 2>of their land, to pull fossil fuels out of the

925
00:54:57.159 --> 00:55:00.880
<v Speaker 2>ground at rates that make no fucking sense. And that

926
00:55:00.960 --> 00:55:05.719
<v Speaker 2>all comes from like, yeah, people's willingness to just pause

927
00:55:05.800 --> 00:55:09.639
<v Speaker 2>and be like, what am I willing to change about

928
00:55:09.679 --> 00:55:10.639
<v Speaker 2>the way that I operate?

929
00:55:11.880 --> 00:55:15.679
<v Speaker 1>So living in a state of inquiry, curiosity and the

930
00:55:15.719 --> 00:55:18.320
<v Speaker 1>notion that all things are connected and maybe it's not

931
00:55:18.519 --> 00:55:22.199
<v Speaker 1>a bizarre coincidence that the systems in place have the

932
00:55:22.239 --> 00:55:25.559
<v Speaker 1>planet in a bind. That's a great start, So help

933
00:55:25.639 --> 00:55:28.599
<v Speaker 1>other humans out think about the impacts of the system.

934
00:55:28.920 --> 00:55:29.480
<v Speaker 2>Question it.

935
00:55:30.199 --> 00:55:32.880
<v Speaker 1>So many choices we make seem to be justified in

936
00:55:32.920 --> 00:55:37.000
<v Speaker 1>the moment, but in hindsight can be appalling, from the

937
00:55:37.000 --> 00:55:39.039
<v Speaker 1>way we treat the land and the plants and the

938
00:55:39.079 --> 00:55:42.880
<v Speaker 1>animals and the fungi on it to the most horrifying

939
00:55:42.920 --> 00:55:48.599
<v Speaker 1>abuses of humans that continue unchecked today. And that brings

940
00:55:48.639 --> 00:55:51.920
<v Speaker 1>me to operating Nelson's question, seconded by Kelly Brockinton and

941
00:55:52.000 --> 00:55:52.679
<v Speaker 1>a lot of people.

942
00:55:53.440 --> 00:55:55.039
<v Speaker 2>Obviously, there are small steps.

943
00:55:54.679 --> 00:55:57.840
<v Speaker 1>That individuals can take to help reduce their impact, but really,

944
00:55:57.920 --> 00:56:01.119
<v Speaker 1>how can we make a bigger difference with so much

945
00:56:01.159 --> 00:56:04.719
<v Speaker 1>seeming outside of our control. But there are so many

946
00:56:05.199 --> 00:56:07.800
<v Speaker 1>eras of the past that are so shameful as a

947
00:56:07.880 --> 00:56:11.480
<v Speaker 1>human and we're living in one of them. When it

948
00:56:11.519 --> 00:56:15.000
<v Speaker 1>comes to the goal of critical ecology and how that

949
00:56:15.079 --> 00:56:18.760
<v Speaker 1>work gets disseminated to the public, what things can people do,

950
00:56:19.239 --> 00:56:22.719
<v Speaker 1>i'd be such a big question, such a big, giant,

951
00:56:22.840 --> 00:56:23.559
<v Speaker 1>terrible question.

952
00:56:23.719 --> 00:56:25.960
<v Speaker 2>No, it's a great it's a great question. And I

953
00:56:26.000 --> 00:56:31.480
<v Speaker 2>feel like the answer is that when you see injustice,

954
00:56:31.679 --> 00:56:35.639
<v Speaker 2>or when you hear or know about something happening that

955
00:56:36.159 --> 00:56:41.239
<v Speaker 2>is a form of oppressing people for whatever reason that

956
00:56:41.440 --> 00:56:45.199
<v Speaker 2>someone is oppressing a group of people, use critical ecology

957
00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:49.199
<v Speaker 2>as a framework to think about how the harm that's

958
00:56:49.239 --> 00:56:55.199
<v Speaker 2>being done to those people is enacted on the landscapes

959
00:56:55.199 --> 00:56:57.280
<v Speaker 2>that we live on as well. That when you then

960
00:56:57.400 --> 00:57:00.639
<v Speaker 2>go to vote, or when you then think about contacting

961
00:57:00.639 --> 00:57:04.760
<v Speaker 2>elected representatives or going out and protesting, like right now,

962
00:57:04.760 --> 00:57:09.119
<v Speaker 2>it's really hard to talk about related systems of harm,

963
00:57:09.320 --> 00:57:10.960
<v Speaker 2>and I think that's kind of on purpose.

964
00:57:11.519 --> 00:57:15.519
<v Speaker 1>Speaking of elected officials and such environmental policy student Ali

965
00:57:15.559 --> 00:57:19.079
<v Speaker 1>Vessels and Natalie, an undergrad student in political science who's

966
00:57:19.079 --> 00:57:21.639
<v Speaker 1>looking to make the switch into ecology, as well as

967
00:57:21.880 --> 00:57:25.800
<v Speaker 1>first time question asker Maya Tcherobic all had policy questions,

968
00:57:25.840 --> 00:57:29.000
<v Speaker 1>and in Maya's words, quote, even with the most progressive

969
00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:32.119
<v Speaker 1>governments at all levels, we're not able to enact systems

970
00:57:32.119 --> 00:57:35.559
<v Speaker 1>of change at the pace and scale needed, indicating that

971
00:57:35.639 --> 00:57:39.480
<v Speaker 1>political systems need an overhaul or reorganization. What can we

972
00:57:39.559 --> 00:57:43.239
<v Speaker 1>learn from ecosystems to help with this reorganization? So we're

973
00:57:43.239 --> 00:57:46.239
<v Speaker 1>not all fucked quote, So it's kind of nice to

974
00:57:46.239 --> 00:57:49.599
<v Speaker 1>see that across the political spectrum in the US. Literally

975
00:57:49.679 --> 00:57:53.119
<v Speaker 1>no one is satisfied with environmental policy. We're all just

976
00:57:53.320 --> 00:57:57.280
<v Speaker 1>united in being pissed, no matter what side you're on.

977
00:57:57.519 --> 00:57:58.880
<v Speaker 2>So that's not.

978
00:57:58.960 --> 00:58:02.559
<v Speaker 1>Good because I've talked to so many ologists who are like,

979
00:58:02.920 --> 00:58:05.199
<v Speaker 1>the best thing you can do for the planet and

980
00:58:05.239 --> 00:58:09.760
<v Speaker 1>for other people is vote, vote, vote small in local

981
00:58:09.800 --> 00:58:13.639
<v Speaker 1>elections as well as the big ones. We have a

982
00:58:13.840 --> 00:58:17.559
<v Speaker 1>majority of one party in the House and Center, we

983
00:58:17.719 --> 00:58:22.000
<v Speaker 1>have a president in one party, and we just had

984
00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:28.960
<v Speaker 1>some EPA things rolled back by the Supreme Court. I'm

985
00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:30.199
<v Speaker 1>so sorry to.

986
00:58:30.159 --> 00:58:30.679
<v Speaker 2>Bring it up.

987
00:58:30.960 --> 00:58:36.320
<v Speaker 1>N It's real when people say vote, vote with the

988
00:58:36.360 --> 00:58:40.840
<v Speaker 1>planet in mind. Is there anything, as a critical ecologist

989
00:58:40.920 --> 00:58:44.360
<v Speaker 1>that you have faith.

990
00:58:44.199 --> 00:58:49.719
<v Speaker 2>In that sounds so bleef the way I asked it.

991
00:58:49.960 --> 00:58:55.599
<v Speaker 2>But yes, there literally anything to believe, doctor Pierre. Our

992
00:58:55.679 --> 00:59:01.440
<v Speaker 2>beliefs relevant. Now, no, Ali, come on, where can I

993
00:59:01.519 --> 00:59:07.920
<v Speaker 2>put my shred of hope in your podcast? Oh god,

994
00:59:08.440 --> 00:59:11.519
<v Speaker 2>So that's a big, huge question. But I really like

995
00:59:11.599 --> 00:59:16.400
<v Speaker 2>that question because like this gets at what we actually

996
00:59:16.519 --> 00:59:20.480
<v Speaker 2>believe needs to be different in society, which I keep

997
00:59:20.639 --> 00:59:23.440
<v Speaker 2>harping on. Right, I'm not going to be the person

998
00:59:23.519 --> 00:59:27.760
<v Speaker 2>that says, like, put your faith in voting. That's not

999
00:59:27.880 --> 00:59:32.840
<v Speaker 2>me saying don't vote. I cannot imagine a reason to

1000
00:59:32.920 --> 00:59:35.519
<v Speaker 2>not vote. It doesn't matter if you think it makes

1001
00:59:35.559 --> 00:59:39.119
<v Speaker 2>a difference or not, Like, do the thing. Let's go vote. However,

1002
00:59:39.679 --> 00:59:46.719
<v Speaker 2>the most threatening thing to the systems in our society, right,

1003
00:59:46.760 --> 00:59:51.840
<v Speaker 2>the economic systems and the political systems and the social

1004
00:59:51.920 --> 00:59:57.280
<v Speaker 2>systems that are unfair and unequal and make this country

1005
00:59:57.800 --> 01:00:02.320
<v Speaker 2>and make our environment threatened, right, you know, less strong,

1006
01:00:02.679 --> 01:00:08.199
<v Speaker 2>less safe, and more divided and less sustainable. The most

1007
01:00:08.239 --> 01:00:13.599
<v Speaker 2>threatening thing to all of those things is solidarity, is care,

1008
01:00:14.480 --> 01:00:17.880
<v Speaker 2>is compassion. If you look at all of these things,

1009
01:00:17.960 --> 01:00:20.599
<v Speaker 2>it looks like I'm just opening like a giant Mary

1010
01:00:20.639 --> 01:00:22.880
<v Speaker 2>Poppins bag of death of just like, look at all

1011
01:00:22.920 --> 01:00:26.119
<v Speaker 2>of the bad things. But they all share something, which

1012
01:00:26.159 --> 01:00:29.519
<v Speaker 2>is they rely on division. And I don't mean like

1013
01:00:29.840 --> 01:00:32.039
<v Speaker 2>we all have to kumbayan be together, but I mean

1014
01:00:32.119 --> 01:00:37.320
<v Speaker 2>like people helping other people, people being in in genuine

1015
01:00:37.400 --> 01:00:41.760
<v Speaker 2>community with one another despite their differences. People saying that

1016
01:00:42.119 --> 01:00:46.000
<v Speaker 2>at a base level, everyone should have the things that

1017
01:00:46.039 --> 01:00:49.719
<v Speaker 2>they need, the safety that they need, the assurance that

1018
01:00:49.880 --> 01:00:53.199
<v Speaker 2>they will not be suffering in one way or another.

1019
01:00:53.480 --> 01:00:56.840
<v Speaker 2>And when we do radical things on a very like

1020
01:00:57.280 --> 01:01:02.079
<v Speaker 2>micro level to make make sure that compassion is available,

1021
01:01:02.119 --> 01:01:06.440
<v Speaker 2>that that mutual care is there, those little behaviors and

1022
01:01:06.480 --> 01:01:09.760
<v Speaker 2>those little decisions in our regular lives spiral up to

1023
01:01:09.800 --> 01:01:14.119
<v Speaker 2>become very problematic for the systems that want us to

1024
01:01:14.199 --> 01:01:18.840
<v Speaker 2>be divided, oppressed, confused, alienated from one another, and alienated

1025
01:01:18.840 --> 01:01:24.559
<v Speaker 2>from ecosystems full stop. When you make resources, care and

1026
01:01:24.599 --> 01:01:29.519
<v Speaker 2>support more available to people, it builds solidarity across groups

1027
01:01:29.599 --> 01:01:35.360
<v Speaker 2>of difference right, racial, class, and gender, where the division

1028
01:01:35.559 --> 01:01:38.519
<v Speaker 2>would have been very useful. Right to keep us kind

1029
01:01:38.519 --> 01:01:39.840
<v Speaker 2>of scrambling.

1030
01:01:39.480 --> 01:01:43.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so it behooves exactly the wrong people to keep

1031
01:01:43.800 --> 01:01:47.079
<v Speaker 1>everyone at odds, driving humanity further apart.

1032
01:01:47.360 --> 01:01:48.000
<v Speaker 2>And at the end of the.

1033
01:01:48.039 --> 01:01:53.480
<v Speaker 1>Day, the polarization is getting less done faster, and the

1034
01:01:53.639 --> 01:01:54.239
<v Speaker 1>less that.

1035
01:01:54.159 --> 01:01:57.760
<v Speaker 2>We scramble the more that we join together in the

1036
01:01:57.800 --> 01:01:59.920
<v Speaker 2>sense that we're not the same and we don't need

1037
01:02:00.079 --> 01:02:03.800
<v Speaker 2>to be, and that is fucking fine. And actually, I'll

1038
01:02:03.840 --> 01:02:06.599
<v Speaker 2>still support you, and I'll still make sure that you're

1039
01:02:06.679 --> 01:02:09.320
<v Speaker 2>okay and your family's okay, and I will vote in

1040
01:02:09.440 --> 01:02:12.000
<v Speaker 2>a direction that makes sure that you're okay and your

1041
01:02:12.039 --> 01:02:17.039
<v Speaker 2>family's okay, regardless of our differences. That starts to really

1042
01:02:17.119 --> 01:02:20.679
<v Speaker 2>crumble the thing that the things that really suck, and

1043
01:02:20.800 --> 01:02:24.679
<v Speaker 2>critical ecology for me is an exercise in that, which

1044
01:02:24.719 --> 01:02:28.199
<v Speaker 2>is to say, ecology is fascinating and so thrilling and

1045
01:02:28.320 --> 01:02:30.599
<v Speaker 2>like I could cry talking about it. That is why

1046
01:02:30.599 --> 01:02:32.519
<v Speaker 2>I went to school to do it. That is why

1047
01:02:32.519 --> 01:02:36.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm here. But if I am an ecologist and this

1048
01:02:36.440 --> 01:02:40.159
<v Speaker 2>is my toolkit, and I also believe that solidarity is

1049
01:02:40.199 --> 01:02:45.840
<v Speaker 2>the only response to an increasingly divided, confused, and suffering

1050
01:02:46.000 --> 01:02:50.559
<v Speaker 2>society and ecosystem, then I have to use that tool

1051
01:02:50.599 --> 01:02:53.239
<v Speaker 2>belt to start making sense of why this is happening

1052
01:02:53.719 --> 01:02:55.639
<v Speaker 2>and what has happened in the past and what will

1053
01:02:55.639 --> 01:02:59.280
<v Speaker 2>happen in the future. So I'm trying to kind of

1054
01:02:59.679 --> 01:03:05.719
<v Speaker 2>throw this rope across from basic science to understanding how

1055
01:03:05.880 --> 01:03:09.719
<v Speaker 2>society assembles itself and how we can do that better

1056
01:03:09.760 --> 01:03:16.679
<v Speaker 2>and better and better, and how eventually I think ecosystem sustainability, functionality,

1057
01:03:16.920 --> 01:03:21.440
<v Speaker 2>and health can reflect what's going on in our society.

1058
01:03:21.920 --> 01:03:24.400
<v Speaker 2>So critically, ecology is saying, if you don't start with

1059
01:03:24.480 --> 01:03:27.800
<v Speaker 2>the ideology, you're never really going to explain this story fully.

1060
01:03:27.920 --> 01:03:29.559
<v Speaker 1>That's a great way to look at it. It's like

1061
01:03:29.599 --> 01:03:32.960
<v Speaker 1>a color on the spectrum that you've never seen before.

1062
01:03:33.320 --> 01:03:36.559
<v Speaker 1>And it's like, have you described something that you've never seen,

1063
01:03:36.960 --> 01:03:37.519
<v Speaker 1>you know what I mean?

1064
01:03:37.639 --> 01:03:39.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, thank you for saying that. That makes me feel

1065
01:03:39.840 --> 01:03:43.760
<v Speaker 2>like less crazy because like seriously, because folks are like, oh,

1066
01:03:43.800 --> 01:03:46.760
<v Speaker 2>you're a scientist. You can't be fighting for our lives.

1067
01:03:47.039 --> 01:03:50.599
<v Speaker 2>You're only concerned with like measuring and publishing. And on

1068
01:03:50.639 --> 01:03:52.920
<v Speaker 2>the other hand, it's like you're not a real scientist.

1069
01:03:53.199 --> 01:03:55.960
<v Speaker 2>You're only concerned with wishy washy like being a do

1070
01:03:56.079 --> 01:04:00.159
<v Speaker 2>gooder or like you know, into social whatever. And it's

1071
01:04:00.199 --> 01:04:02.559
<v Speaker 2>like you said, it's this color on the color wheel

1072
01:04:02.559 --> 01:04:05.280
<v Speaker 2>that we haven't looked at before. But I think that

1073
01:04:05.320 --> 01:04:07.960
<v Speaker 2>like I didn't make that color up. It's just there

1074
01:04:08.119 --> 01:04:12.039
<v Speaker 2>and it's been really hidden from us. And so it

1075
01:04:12.199 --> 01:04:14.039
<v Speaker 2>means so much to me to be able to have

1076
01:04:14.079 --> 01:04:17.199
<v Speaker 2>this conversation and try to get to a little bit

1077
01:04:17.199 --> 01:04:19.320
<v Speaker 2>more of understanding of what it really means and what

1078
01:04:19.360 --> 01:04:21.079
<v Speaker 2>it could mean for changing society.

1079
01:04:21.360 --> 01:04:24.159
<v Speaker 1>Oh what a what a great and maddening game to

1080
01:04:24.239 --> 01:04:27.400
<v Speaker 1>think of literally anything and think how does this the

1081
01:04:27.440 --> 01:04:28.519
<v Speaker 1>fall of critical ecology?

1082
01:04:28.679 --> 01:04:31.920
<v Speaker 2>Literally anything you look at you're like, oh, there's a

1083
01:04:31.960 --> 01:04:36.400
<v Speaker 2>critical ecology in there. Yeah, how about that? But also exciting?

1084
01:04:36.960 --> 01:04:37.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

1085
01:04:37.360 --> 01:04:39.719
<v Speaker 1>And one thing I mean I always ask, but I

1086
01:04:39.760 --> 01:04:41.400
<v Speaker 1>don't even know how you're gonna answer this. But the

1087
01:04:41.400 --> 01:04:45.400
<v Speaker 1>hardest thing about your job, where are you gonna start?

1088
01:04:45.679 --> 01:04:50.119
<v Speaker 2>One of the really hard things is because because like

1089
01:04:50.159 --> 01:04:53.599
<v Speaker 2>you're saying, it's like, oh, yeah, that makes sense, but

1090
01:04:53.679 --> 01:04:57.199
<v Speaker 2>it's not something that's been like really named before. It

1091
01:04:57.239 --> 01:05:00.880
<v Speaker 2>exists in these little pockets of different fields, different ologies,

1092
01:05:01.119 --> 01:05:04.679
<v Speaker 2>but it's not like unified in one place. And all

1093
01:05:04.719 --> 01:05:08.480
<v Speaker 2>of that. There's not a lot of sources of support

1094
01:05:09.039 --> 01:05:11.239
<v Speaker 2>because folks are like, that's really cool. I hope that

1095
01:05:11.280 --> 01:05:13.920
<v Speaker 2>works out for you, and I'm like, no, but money.

1096
01:05:14.199 --> 01:05:16.559
<v Speaker 2>So the thing is about the thing that actually money,

1097
01:05:16.960 --> 01:05:21.039
<v Speaker 2>and so funding my research and getting the kind of

1098
01:05:21.079 --> 01:05:24.679
<v Speaker 2>institutions that normally give you the big amounts of money

1099
01:05:24.719 --> 01:05:26.760
<v Speaker 2>that allow you to do the scale of work that

1100
01:05:26.840 --> 01:05:29.400
<v Speaker 2>I want to do. They're not quite there yet. They're like,

1101
01:05:29.440 --> 01:05:33.079
<v Speaker 2>that's not a color what And I get why, but

1102
01:05:33.159 --> 01:05:35.320
<v Speaker 2>it's going to be slow going. I spend a lot

1103
01:05:35.360 --> 01:05:39.559
<v Speaker 2>of time talking to people and basically getting groups of

1104
01:05:39.599 --> 01:05:43.800
<v Speaker 2>the right people from different disciplines to get together and

1105
01:05:43.960 --> 01:05:47.760
<v Speaker 2>articulate a question and then go, what is the funding

1106
01:05:47.760 --> 01:05:50.719
<v Speaker 2>institution that is most likely to kind of understand what

1107
01:05:50.760 --> 01:05:53.679
<v Speaker 2>the fuck we're talking about, and let's go for that. Oh,

1108
01:05:53.719 --> 01:05:56.239
<v Speaker 2>they didn't like it, Let's let's take out the science

1109
01:05:56.239 --> 01:05:58.320
<v Speaker 2>and add up, you know, increase this. And it's just

1110
01:05:58.360 --> 01:06:01.320
<v Speaker 2>like pulling these levers. So that's one thing that's really like,

1111
01:06:01.400 --> 01:06:04.719
<v Speaker 2>god damn it. And another thing I don't know if

1112
01:06:04.719 --> 01:06:07.519
<v Speaker 2>you've talked about this on ologies, but there's this idea

1113
01:06:07.599 --> 01:06:13.679
<v Speaker 2>that white supremacy culture has these characteristics or norms that

1114
01:06:13.760 --> 01:06:18.880
<v Speaker 2>are invisible but are so normal in corporate culture, in government,

1115
01:06:19.079 --> 01:06:23.440
<v Speaker 2>in academia, and our day to day interactions basically recreate

1116
01:06:23.480 --> 01:06:27.039
<v Speaker 2>those systems and uphold those systems. So culture change is

1117
01:06:27.039 --> 01:06:31.960
<v Speaker 2>super important. And in my little cocoon of folks that

1118
01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:35.559
<v Speaker 2>I work with in critically ecology lab, shoutout Kunalpolawat they

1119
01:06:35.599 --> 01:06:38.320
<v Speaker 2>are an amazing graduate student that I work really closely with,

1120
01:06:38.360 --> 01:06:41.159
<v Speaker 2>along with a number of other team members. You know,

1121
01:06:41.559 --> 01:06:45.280
<v Speaker 2>we show up in our little container of the lab,

1122
01:06:45.639 --> 01:06:49.320
<v Speaker 2>but we also have full time jobs in normal institutions,

1123
01:06:49.719 --> 01:06:52.199
<v Speaker 2>and so when we're together, we have these like basic

1124
01:06:53.079 --> 01:06:56.519
<v Speaker 2>principles of how we interact, how we have conflict, how

1125
01:06:56.559 --> 01:07:00.000
<v Speaker 2>we care for each other, even though we're colleagues and professionals,

1126
01:07:00.559 --> 01:07:03.519
<v Speaker 2>and those principles don't hold up when we go out

1127
01:07:03.559 --> 01:07:06.239
<v Speaker 2>into our regular paid nine to five jobs. Now, one

1128
01:07:06.280 --> 01:07:09.039
<v Speaker 2>day I want to be fully employed by Critically Collegy

1129
01:07:09.119 --> 01:07:13.440
<v Speaker 2>Lab knock on wood. But until then, it's like, how

1130
01:07:13.440 --> 01:07:16.599
<v Speaker 2>do I hold up those values wherever I go. Meanwhile,

1131
01:07:16.639 --> 01:07:19.039
<v Speaker 2>we're thinking about this, and we're also just like I

1132
01:07:19.079 --> 01:07:21.280
<v Speaker 2>have to collect data. I have to do stats. So

1133
01:07:21.920 --> 01:07:24.679
<v Speaker 2>it's a lot to be like conscientious of who you

1134
01:07:24.719 --> 01:07:28.320
<v Speaker 2>are and your values while also like just doing regular science.

1135
01:07:28.519 --> 01:07:32.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah side note, just big news. As of August ninth,

1136
01:07:32.960 --> 01:07:36.079
<v Speaker 1>she is full time at Critical Ecology Lab.

1137
01:07:36.519 --> 01:07:37.000
<v Speaker 2>She did it.

1138
01:07:37.599 --> 01:07:41.360
<v Speaker 1>And it also must be like working really hard to

1139
01:07:41.519 --> 01:07:43.559
<v Speaker 1>dismantle the grind culture.

1140
01:07:43.880 --> 01:07:47.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I was napping. For those of you who

1141
01:07:47.440 --> 01:07:51.079
<v Speaker 2>can't see me, I'm like air snapping because literally you

1142
01:07:51.119 --> 01:07:53.480
<v Speaker 2>got I'm so happy that you said that, because a

1143
01:07:53.599 --> 01:07:56.920
<v Speaker 2>huge part of the idea of white supremacy culture is

1144
01:07:57.199 --> 01:08:00.840
<v Speaker 2>grind culture is like busy culture is valor, the idea

1145
01:08:00.840 --> 01:08:03.440
<v Speaker 2>that you don't ever sleep and you publish so much,

1146
01:08:03.480 --> 01:08:06.440
<v Speaker 2>and you know, it's really great if you're publishing a lot,

1147
01:08:06.480 --> 01:08:10.840
<v Speaker 2>but at what cost and for whom? And so it's

1148
01:08:10.920 --> 01:08:15.599
<v Speaker 2>really hard to live by these values while also still

1149
01:08:15.639 --> 01:08:19.159
<v Speaker 2>being seen as a productive, hardworking scientist. When it's like,

1150
01:08:19.439 --> 01:08:21.960
<v Speaker 2>I want to be seen as a productive, hardworking scientist

1151
01:08:22.399 --> 01:08:25.680
<v Speaker 2>even if I do not answer emails at you know,

1152
01:08:26.119 --> 01:08:30.039
<v Speaker 2>one am, and even if I'm not publishing all the time,

1153
01:08:30.159 --> 01:08:33.000
<v Speaker 2>and there are good reasons for that, including rest, including

1154
01:08:33.239 --> 01:08:37.560
<v Speaker 2>self care, including care for my community. So yeah, it's

1155
01:08:37.760 --> 01:08:40.319
<v Speaker 2>a clash of cultures. That's very awkward. And I've just

1156
01:08:40.359 --> 01:08:42.880
<v Speaker 2>gotten comfortable being like, that's all right, y'all, don't get

1157
01:08:42.920 --> 01:08:43.439
<v Speaker 2>me yet.

1158
01:08:44.720 --> 01:08:46.880
<v Speaker 1>What about your favorite thing? What do you get so

1159
01:08:47.039 --> 01:08:47.840
<v Speaker 1>excited about?

1160
01:08:48.319 --> 01:08:51.439
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, that's even harder to answer because there's

1161
01:08:51.439 --> 01:08:56.239
<v Speaker 2>so many things I'm going to say that. Ever, since

1162
01:08:56.439 --> 01:08:59.359
<v Speaker 2>I was in undergrad and then grad school, I was like,

1163
01:08:59.560 --> 01:09:01.640
<v Speaker 2>I feel to be a scientist, you have to be

1164
01:09:01.720 --> 01:09:04.479
<v Speaker 2>like reading the literature that is in your discipline, and

1165
01:09:04.520 --> 01:09:06.159
<v Speaker 2>you need to be on top of it. You need

1166
01:09:06.199 --> 01:09:08.680
<v Speaker 2>to know like all the most recent papers, the most

1167
01:09:08.720 --> 01:09:11.479
<v Speaker 2>cutting edge techniques, and I care about all of that,

1168
01:09:11.640 --> 01:09:16.079
<v Speaker 2>but my job, Basically, I created a situation where I

1169
01:09:16.159 --> 01:09:20.720
<v Speaker 2>gave myself this area of research and it requires me

1170
01:09:20.800 --> 01:09:24.600
<v Speaker 2>to read outside of my discipline. It makes me talk

1171
01:09:24.680 --> 01:09:30.399
<v Speaker 2>to archaeologists and sociologists and black feminist theorists. I think

1172
01:09:30.439 --> 01:09:33.119
<v Speaker 2>at one point it felt like I'm doing the wrong things,

1173
01:09:33.520 --> 01:09:36.479
<v Speaker 2>and I've kind of just let myself accept that, Yeah,

1174
01:09:36.479 --> 01:09:38.920
<v Speaker 2>you're going to be wrong in some people's eyes, or

1175
01:09:39.520 --> 01:09:42.600
<v Speaker 2>it might feel a little uncomfortable that you're doing these

1176
01:09:42.600 --> 01:09:45.720
<v Speaker 2>things that are not normal. But there's so much growth

1177
01:09:45.760 --> 01:09:49.000
<v Speaker 2>and richness in just letting myself do it. So I'm

1178
01:09:49.000 --> 01:09:51.960
<v Speaker 2>so grateful to just get to like have these conversations

1179
01:09:52.159 --> 01:09:54.359
<v Speaker 2>and read the books that are never going to be

1180
01:09:54.439 --> 01:09:58.600
<v Speaker 2>associated with biogeochemistry until I make them associated with biogeochemistry.

1181
01:09:59.079 --> 01:10:02.279
<v Speaker 2>Shout out to Christina Sharp, black feminist theorist. Side note.

1182
01:10:02.319 --> 01:10:05.119
<v Speaker 1>Doctor Christina Sharp is the author of In the Wake

1183
01:10:05.479 --> 01:10:09.399
<v Speaker 1>on Blackness and Being, which uses the word wake in

1184
01:10:09.760 --> 01:10:13.359
<v Speaker 1>many meetings. From quote The Path behind a Ship Keeping

1185
01:10:13.439 --> 01:10:18.000
<v Speaker 1>Watch with the Dead and Coming into Consciousness and in

1186
01:10:18.079 --> 01:10:20.720
<v Speaker 1>the Wake is about the history and imagery of the

1187
01:10:20.760 --> 01:10:23.560
<v Speaker 1>slave ship and how that haunts contemporary black life. And

1188
01:10:23.640 --> 01:10:27.199
<v Speaker 1>it's about a social climate that quote produces premature black

1189
01:10:27.279 --> 01:10:30.680
<v Speaker 1>death as normative. That is in the Wake on Blackness

1190
01:10:30.720 --> 01:10:32.239
<v Speaker 1>and Being by Christina Sharp.

1191
01:10:32.720 --> 01:10:35.520
<v Speaker 2>So I love that. Also, if we are going to

1192
01:10:35.520 --> 01:10:37.359
<v Speaker 2>spend a lot of time working hard on something, we

1193
01:10:37.359 --> 01:10:40.319
<v Speaker 2>should do it with people we love. And I'm so

1194
01:10:40.520 --> 01:10:45.119
<v Speaker 2>lucky that Critical Ecology Lab is really like individuals who

1195
01:10:45.439 --> 01:10:48.760
<v Speaker 2>see me for who I am. There are people who

1196
01:10:48.800 --> 01:10:52.800
<v Speaker 2>like actually love me as as like a person as

1197
01:10:52.840 --> 01:10:55.479
<v Speaker 2>well as respect me and work hard with me as

1198
01:10:55.479 --> 01:10:58.760
<v Speaker 2>a colleague. And that's just like part of our culture

1199
01:10:58.840 --> 01:11:01.800
<v Speaker 2>that in every meeting we check in and make sure

1200
01:11:01.840 --> 01:11:04.800
<v Speaker 2>that everyone is well and if not, we talk about it,

1201
01:11:05.199 --> 01:11:07.720
<v Speaker 2>even if that cuts into like the work part, because

1202
01:11:07.760 --> 01:11:10.279
<v Speaker 2>we're better at doing our jobs if we are happy

1203
01:11:10.319 --> 01:11:12.880
<v Speaker 2>and well and cared for. Shout out to everyone working

1204
01:11:12.880 --> 01:11:16.199
<v Speaker 2>with Critically Ecology Lab right now or thinking about it.

1205
01:11:16.199 --> 01:11:18.680
<v Speaker 2>It's really a joy and like a privilege.

1206
01:11:18.840 --> 01:11:21.560
<v Speaker 1>I mean, oh shit, that's like a healthy ecosystem business

1207
01:11:21.640 --> 01:11:23.199
<v Speaker 1>wise that you're creating.

1208
01:11:23.279 --> 01:11:27.399
<v Speaker 2>Yess exactly exactly that and if you'd like to join

1209
01:11:27.560 --> 01:11:31.000
<v Speaker 2>that team. We're looking for someone who's interested in social

1210
01:11:31.039 --> 01:11:33.439
<v Speaker 2>media management and so that I can like let my

1211
01:11:33.479 --> 01:11:36.239
<v Speaker 2>brain alone and not do that. But so we won't

1212
01:11:36.239 --> 01:11:38.880
<v Speaker 2>be tweeting until we get a person. But I'm more

1213
01:11:38.960 --> 01:11:43.680
<v Speaker 2>on Instagram, So we're at critical Underscore ecology and you

1214
01:11:43.680 --> 01:11:46.800
<v Speaker 2>can follow us. Many of my ramblings and ideas are there,

1215
01:11:46.920 --> 01:11:49.439
<v Speaker 2>and you can also donate money if you want on

1216
01:11:49.479 --> 01:11:51.800
<v Speaker 2>the site. Hell yeah, I have a feeling you're gonna

1217
01:11:51.800 --> 01:11:55.239
<v Speaker 2>have a full inbox after this. I mean, help, can

1218
01:11:55.239 --> 01:11:56.520
<v Speaker 2>I help? Can I do something? Can I do something

1219
01:11:56.520 --> 01:11:58.600
<v Speaker 2>that I do that? I need all the help currently,

1220
01:11:59.439 --> 01:12:03.720
<v Speaker 2>I I'm so like, woefully bad at social media. It's

1221
01:12:04.159 --> 01:12:06.439
<v Speaker 2>so devastating. I'll post once and be like I'll post

1222
01:12:06.479 --> 01:12:07.960
<v Speaker 2>again next week and then you'll hear from me a

1223
01:12:08.079 --> 01:12:11.239
<v Speaker 2>year later. And so if anyone loves to think about

1224
01:12:11.239 --> 01:12:14.640
<v Speaker 2>social media strategy and messaging, amazing, like talk to me.

1225
01:12:15.079 --> 01:12:19.079
<v Speaker 2>And also I am looking to be on the committees

1226
01:12:19.159 --> 01:12:23.079
<v Speaker 2>of graduate students, master students, PhD students, And that's a

1227
01:12:23.199 --> 01:12:24.840
<v Speaker 2>role that can be a lot, but I'm willing to

1228
01:12:24.920 --> 01:12:26.840
<v Speaker 2>take on if the fit is right. So I want

1229
01:12:26.840 --> 01:12:31.079
<v Speaker 2>to support folks academically as activists and in their education,

1230
01:12:31.199 --> 01:12:34.439
<v Speaker 2>So lots of stuff coming down the pipe. But yeah,

1231
01:12:34.479 --> 01:12:37.960
<v Speaker 2>any support that folks want to offer, I can definitely consider.

1232
01:12:37.720 --> 01:12:40.560
<v Speaker 1>How exciting to get to interview you when you have

1233
01:12:41.840 --> 01:12:48.359
<v Speaker 1>launched an organization and a field that is so needed

1234
01:12:49.199 --> 01:12:50.399
<v Speaker 1>for this time in this place.

1235
01:12:50.479 --> 01:12:52.680
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much, Alie. Of course you're the best.

1236
01:12:53.039 --> 01:12:53.640
<v Speaker 2>You're in the best.

1237
01:12:55.399 --> 01:12:57.640
<v Speaker 1>So if you are now amped up and you want

1238
01:12:57.640 --> 01:13:00.560
<v Speaker 1>to reach out, you can check out Critical Ecology lab

1239
01:13:00.640 --> 01:13:04.159
<v Speaker 1>dot org. They're also looking for someone in an admin role,

1240
01:13:04.520 --> 01:13:06.840
<v Speaker 1>so reach out links are in the show notes, and

1241
01:13:06.880 --> 01:13:10.000
<v Speaker 1>there's more links at alleywar dot com, slash Ologies, slash

1242
01:13:10.039 --> 01:13:13.760
<v Speaker 1>Critical Ecology. I'm Ali Ward on Twitter and Instagram and

1243
01:13:14.039 --> 01:13:17.960
<v Speaker 1>at ologies on both say hello. Links to sponsors are

1244
01:13:17.960 --> 01:13:20.880
<v Speaker 1>in the show notes, and alleyward dot com also has

1245
01:13:20.880 --> 01:13:23.680
<v Speaker 1>a list of all the organizations we donate to. If

1246
01:13:23.720 --> 01:13:26.840
<v Speaker 1>you'd like to put ologies merch onto your body, you

1247
01:13:26.880 --> 01:13:29.640
<v Speaker 1>can go to ologiesmerch dot com. Thank you Susan Hale

1248
01:13:29.720 --> 01:13:31.880
<v Speaker 1>for managing that and doing so so so much else

1249
01:13:31.920 --> 01:13:35.439
<v Speaker 1>to keep the show going. And Noel DILWORTHWO who handles scheduling.

1250
01:13:35.760 --> 01:13:39.479
<v Speaker 1>Aaron Talbert admins the Ologies podcast Facebook group with assists

1251
01:13:39.479 --> 01:13:42.159
<v Speaker 1>from Bonnie Dutch and Shannon Feltis. Kelly ar Dwyer is

1252
01:13:42.199 --> 01:13:43.760
<v Speaker 1>on top of our website and she can help you

1253
01:13:43.800 --> 01:13:47.000
<v Speaker 1>with yours. Emily White of the Wordery makes our professional

1254
01:13:47.000 --> 01:13:50.119
<v Speaker 1>transcripts and Caleb Patten bleeps them. Those are up for

1255
01:13:50.199 --> 01:13:53.239
<v Speaker 1>free at alleyward dot com slash ologies, dash extras, and

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<v Speaker 1>if you have small ologites, you can check out smologies

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<v Speaker 1>episodes in our feed. Those are short, condensed and filth

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<v Speaker 1>free episodes for all ages. There's more of those up

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<v Speaker 1>at alleywoard dot com slash somologies. Thank you Mercedes Maitland

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<v Speaker 1>and Zeke Rodriguez Thomas of Mindjam Media for being on

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<v Speaker 1>top of those, and of course thank you to lead

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<v Speaker 1>editor Jared Sleeper, who has the finest mullet in all

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<v Speaker 1>of podcasting, and Nick Thorburn who wrote the theme music.

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<v Speaker 1>And if you stick around to the end of the episode,

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<v Speaker 1>I tell you secret, and this week's secret is that

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<v Speaker 1>if you need to get right the fuck up in

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<v Speaker 1>your course, Let's say maybe you have a problem with

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<v Speaker 1>the contact lens, or you are on a tweezer chase

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<v Speaker 1>with an errant whisker. Maybe you need to have a

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<v Speaker 1>word with a black head. If you have one of

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<v Speaker 1>those camping flashlights that straps to your forehead, wow, put

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<v Speaker 1>that on your head, point that in the right direction,

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<v Speaker 1>and the world will be revealed to you. I put

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<v Speaker 1>on a headlamp to help get a thorn out of

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<v Speaker 1>Grammy's paw, and then I looked in the mirror and

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<v Speaker 1>turned it on and.

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<v Speaker 3>Wow, it was is illuminating. So you're welcome by bye.

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<v Speaker 2>Somehow, some way, it's all connected.

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<v Speaker 1>H