WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:04.519 Stable coins are the next payment system in finance. But 2 00:00:04.639 --> 00:00:06.960 part of that is you need adoption, and that's the 3 00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:11.960 important thing about why revewards exist, why exchanges are using those. 4 00:00:12.320 --> 00:00:16.519 You want people to adopt these payment stable coins so 5 00:00:16.519 --> 00:00:18.079 the innovation can grow. 6 00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:21.800 So what happens next summer? Is it a big dialogue continues, 7 00:00:21.879 --> 00:00:24.640 we have more hearings before the markup and get a 8 00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:26.399 new draft of the bill in place. 9 00:00:26.679 --> 00:00:32.640 I don't think you'll see more hearings. 10 00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:36.640 This episode is brought to you by Propy, which is 11 00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:40.240 leading to charge in putting real estate on chain. Propy 12 00:00:40.399 --> 00:00:42.799 is a game changer. 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They use coinbase for their crypto escro service. 20 00:01:08.120 --> 00:01:10.879 So this is a great platform and once again they 21 00:01:10.879 --> 00:01:12.719 are ahead of the curve when it comes to putting 22 00:01:12.719 --> 00:01:15.400 real estate on chain and they just launch a great 23 00:01:15.439 --> 00:01:18.159 campaign where you can earn some of the Propy tokens, 24 00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:21.799 and it's simply by doing tasks such as sharing their 25 00:01:21.879 --> 00:01:25.200 vision video, signing up, and inviting a friend, and much 26 00:01:25.280 --> 00:01:27.719 more so. If you'd like to learn more about Propy, 27 00:01:27.959 --> 00:01:31.719 visit the link in the description. Hey, everybody, welcome into 28 00:01:31.719 --> 00:01:34.560 the Thinking Crypto podcast. I'm your host Tony Edward and 29 00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:37.599 joining me today Summer Mersinger, who is the CEO of 30 00:01:37.719 --> 00:01:41.959 the Blockchain Association and also a former CFTC commissioner. Some 31 00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:42.920 are great to have you. 32 00:01:43.879 --> 00:01:46.040 Yeah, no, thanks for having me on. It's great to 33 00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:46.400 be here. 34 00:01:47.159 --> 00:01:50.200 Yeah, Summer, I thought of you after this crazy week 35 00:01:50.200 --> 00:01:52.719 in DC around the Crypto Market Structure Bill to get 36 00:01:52.840 --> 00:01:56.680 your point of view and to help break down what 37 00:01:56.799 --> 00:01:59.439 happened this week and what we can expect moving forward. 38 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:02.280 I'd love to start with you know, what were some 39 00:02:02.319 --> 00:02:05.400 of the hiccups with the Crypto Market Structure Bill that 40 00:02:05.560 --> 00:02:07.400 kind of caused the markup delay. 41 00:02:08.560 --> 00:02:11.759 Yeah, there were a couple of issues outstanding that just 42 00:02:11.919 --> 00:02:15.400 really difficult to get consensus on and get to a compromise. 43 00:02:16.159 --> 00:02:20.439 Still dealing with a few issues around decentralized finance and 44 00:02:20.919 --> 00:02:27.319 how certain listed flinance laws apply or don't apply to code. 45 00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:34.599 There's still some questions around tokenized stocks and equities, and 46 00:02:34.639 --> 00:02:37.680 then probably the biggest one was the question around yield 47 00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:41.800 with stable coin yield if the third parties can offer 48 00:02:42.680 --> 00:02:47.000 rewards to customers. You know, there's a yield ban in 49 00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:50.400 Genius that does not allow issuers to offer yield, but 50 00:02:50.520 --> 00:02:56.639 nothing is preventing the third party exchanges from paying rewards 51 00:02:56.680 --> 00:02:59.000 just like you would on a credit card. So that 52 00:02:59.199 --> 00:03:01.159 is still an outside any issues. So I think these 53 00:03:01.159 --> 00:03:05.120 are just really tough issues to get consensus on. There 54 00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:07.800 wasn't a ton of time with the language. I think 55 00:03:07.879 --> 00:03:11.280 people are still working through it. And this isn't that 56 00:03:11.560 --> 00:03:15.960 abnormal of something that happens in legislation. There's always bumps 57 00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:19.080 in the road. There's always, like you said, hiccups, and 58 00:03:19.360 --> 00:03:21.639 it's just kind of part of legislating. 59 00:03:21.800 --> 00:03:25.039 That's perfect summary of what happened, and also your ending 60 00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:27.879 thoughts there that this is not unique to crypto. Any 61 00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:31.599 legislation that's going through Congress. You have parties that are 62 00:03:31.639 --> 00:03:33.800 going to fight each other and tit for tad and 63 00:03:33.879 --> 00:03:36.319 I need this and you need it right. It is 64 00:03:36.759 --> 00:03:38.719 the common thing. How do sausage is made? Right? 65 00:03:39.479 --> 00:03:41.919 Yeah? Absolutely, I think I said that a few times 66 00:03:41.919 --> 00:03:46.400 this week, Like and here's how legislation is made. It's 67 00:03:46.520 --> 00:03:50.039 some messy process and there are usually other political issues 68 00:03:50.520 --> 00:03:55.800 at play. It's like a giant chess board and you 69 00:03:55.879 --> 00:03:57.960 never know what the next move is going to be. 70 00:03:58.560 --> 00:04:02.960 So it's one of the it's a process and it's 71 00:04:03.080 --> 00:04:05.599 you know, you can try to control the process. You 72 00:04:05.639 --> 00:04:10.280 can try to schedule it out, but inevitably that doesn't 73 00:04:10.280 --> 00:04:12.840 always work out the way you plan. But I think 74 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:16.800 Chairman Scott he's in a good place. The bill is 75 00:04:18.199 --> 00:04:21.720 continually getting getting to a better place, and I'm hopeful 76 00:04:21.759 --> 00:04:24.240 that we'll get something that can be passed out of 77 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:26.079 the Banking Committee and sent to the floor. 78 00:04:27.319 --> 00:04:30.519 Now, at the crux of the issue, or who's behind 79 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:33.480 some of the language that is not copasetic with what 80 00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:36.360 the crypto industry needs. Is it the banking lobby or 81 00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:39.160 is it also folks like Elizabeth Warren who you know, 82 00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:42.399 any any chance she gets to throw something against crypto 83 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:43.879 or it's a combination of both. 84 00:04:45.079 --> 00:04:48.319 Yeah, this is mostly the banking lobby, just kind of 85 00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:56.480 entrenched traditional finance trying to uh prevent competition and making 86 00:04:56.519 --> 00:05:00.759 it really hard for innovation to to flourish. I mean, 87 00:05:00.759 --> 00:05:03.759 when you think about it, stable coins are the next 88 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:08.319 payment system in finance. But part of that is you 89 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:11.439 need adoption. And that's the important thing about you know, 90 00:05:11.480 --> 00:05:15.839 why why rewards exist, why exchanges are using those You 91 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:20.079 want people to adopt these payment stable coins so that 92 00:05:20.199 --> 00:05:24.759 it can the innovation can grow. So banks just want 93 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:28.120 to shut that down. They don't want to be they 94 00:05:28.120 --> 00:05:32.000 don't want to compete. They don't want consumers to have 95 00:05:32.040 --> 00:05:36.680 a choice between the banks and between you know, something different, 96 00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:40.519 and it really is it just comes down to competition. 97 00:05:40.759 --> 00:05:43.480 And at the end of the day, I always say 98 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:45.879 we're on the side of the consumers because if you 99 00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:48.519 shut down these reward programs, all you're doing is taking 100 00:05:48.560 --> 00:05:50.199 money out of the consumer's hands. 101 00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:56.120 Absolutely and speaking anecdotally, like I personally put a good 102 00:05:56.120 --> 00:05:58.920 amount of money into stable coins on platforms like uphold 103 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:02.600 and coinbase, and I'm getting a higher interest than what 104 00:06:02.759 --> 00:06:05.360 for example, JP Morgan, who's my bank is offering me? 105 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:07.959 They give me zero point zero one or something on 106 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:13.680 my savings, but I'm getting higher yield there and it's insane, 107 00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:15.759 Like the banks are trying to cut that off. And 108 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:18.600 but at the same time summer they're also planning to 109 00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:20.879 launch their own stable coin, So why don't they compete 110 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:23.959 and just offer the same thing or you know, on 111 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:27.240 par or even more than what these exchanges are off. 112 00:06:28.120 --> 00:06:32.519 That's been our argument all along. You know, this is 113 00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:36.399 the banks want to issue stable coins, they can, they 114 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:39.560 can compete if they want to give more interest on 115 00:06:39.720 --> 00:06:44.319 the positive accounts, there's nothing stopping them from doing that. 116 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:48.399 So this is just you know, trying to stomp out 117 00:06:48.399 --> 00:06:52.600 any competition, and that's that at the end of the day. 118 00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:56.720 It is just they don't want to have to compete 119 00:06:56.800 --> 00:07:03.360 with the new innovative financial services technology and the way 120 00:07:03.399 --> 00:07:07.920 things are moving towards a new payment system. Yeah. 121 00:07:07.959 --> 00:07:12.879 Absolutely, So what happens next summer, is it the dialogue continues, 122 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:15.680 we have more hearings before the markup and get a 123 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:17.439 new draft of the bill in place. 124 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:22.240 I don't think you'll see another more hearings. I think 125 00:07:22.279 --> 00:07:27.279 that eventually Chairman Scott will feel confident enough to schedule 126 00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:31.560 another markup. Markup is when they kind of all go 127 00:07:31.639 --> 00:07:34.680 through the bill, read it, decide what language stays in, 128 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:38.040 what language goes out, and then vote out of the committee. 129 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:41.959 Senate Agriculture Committee next week they're going to release text, 130 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:44.480 and then the following week they're going to have a 131 00:07:44.600 --> 00:07:48.879 markup as well, so you've got Senate Agriculture moving forward. 132 00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:52.199 I think Senate Banking takes that time to work to 133 00:07:52.279 --> 00:07:55.000 refine some of those problems that are outstanding and try 134 00:07:55.000 --> 00:07:57.560 to solve some of those issues, because at the end 135 00:07:57.560 --> 00:07:59.639 of the day, you need both of these bills together 136 00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:03.720 to combine them to go to the Senate floor. So 137 00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:07.480 I think it's you know, it's one of those things 138 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:09.399 where you know, Banking what's going to go first, and 139 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:12.120 then Agriculture. It's just going to be a different order. 140 00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:15.480 It's not going to change the fact that they're still 141 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:19.360 work being done on legislation and we expect something to 142 00:08:19.399 --> 00:08:20.800 get to the Senate floor this year. 143 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:24.160 I don't know if you can answer this question. It 144 00:08:24.199 --> 00:08:26.600 might be a hard one. If you were to. Are 145 00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:29.480 there more folks who are pro crypto in the Senate 146 00:08:29.560 --> 00:08:32.200 than there are anti crypto or who are being influenced 147 00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:34.200 by the banking lobby, or if you want to call 148 00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:38.600 them detractors of the bill? What's the breakdown like between 149 00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:38.840 the two. 150 00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:44.159 I think there are quite a few pro crypto senators. 151 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:48.200 I think there are a lot of senators who understand 152 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:54.120 the importance of innovating our finance system and not stifling 153 00:08:54.519 --> 00:08:59.720 technological advances. The problem here lies in the way the 154 00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:03.840 banks are approaching this. This is one of their tried 155 00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:07.480 and true methods. Is they use this the community banks 156 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:11.200 to carry the message. And a lot of senators are 157 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:14.600 very They've been very close with their community banks for 158 00:09:14.679 --> 00:09:19.039 a very long time. These are their neighbors essentially and 159 00:09:19.120 --> 00:09:22.440 their home state, and so the banks are using those 160 00:09:22.440 --> 00:09:26.480 community banks to tell these senators, hey, we're worried about 161 00:09:26.519 --> 00:09:31.720 deposit flight, and it is that now they're trying to decide, Okay, 162 00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:37.279 who's telling me the truth? Here's what's the real situation. 163 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:41.000 So I think it's more's not so much people are 164 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:44.519 anti crypto. It's that they're having to choose between their 165 00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:48.240 small banks and crypto. And honestly, there's a way to 166 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:50.960 do this without having to choose. I think if they 167 00:09:50.960 --> 00:09:55.279 could come to the table and do so in good 168 00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:58.639 faith and compromise, we could get somewhere. But so far 169 00:09:58.679 --> 00:10:00.279 they just haven't been willing to do that. 170 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:07.600 Would a compromise potentially be that we can allow consumers 171 00:10:07.639 --> 00:10:10.200 to do this, but maybe we put a cap, temporary 172 00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:15.120 cap that only x amount of dollars can be moved 173 00:10:15.159 --> 00:10:18.039 from your bank account to these exchanges to do the 174 00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:21.080 stable coin yield. Could that be something that could work. 175 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:25.559 I mean, you got to think about it in this 176 00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:28.200 like you got to put yourself in the consumer's shoes, 177 00:10:28.279 --> 00:10:30.840 right when I look at the stuff, I'm like, and 178 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:33.919 you know, we are consumers ourselves, But think about it, 179 00:10:33.960 --> 00:10:37.600 and you know, would you want a law limiting the 180 00:10:37.639 --> 00:10:39.879 way you move your money and where you move it? 181 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:42.360 I mean, yes, there are certainly some laws out there, 182 00:10:42.559 --> 00:10:45.200 you know, around de listed finance, around know your customer 183 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:48.720 that you know, do put some sort of you know, 184 00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:52.600 kind of parameters around moving money. But you wouldn't want 185 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:55.759 somebody to say, well, you can only buy so much 186 00:10:55.759 --> 00:10:58.080 stable coin or you can only move so much money 187 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:01.679 out of your savings to buy something that you think 188 00:11:01.799 --> 00:11:05.080 there's a value and you see that it's going to 189 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:08.000 be used for you know, payments in the future. So 190 00:11:08.440 --> 00:11:10.360 some of this is kind of really comes down to 191 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:14.200 consumer choice and we don't want to limit that. The 192 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:17.840 idea is, let's expand the options for consumers so they 193 00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:20.159 can have more control over their finances. 194 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:24.440 Absolutely. I was just thinking like maybe it's a twelve 195 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:27.960 month gap, but then it's unlimited beyond that. Right, Uh, 196 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:30.200 it's a fun to get the bill through if if 197 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:32.399 it's gonna this is gonna be a big sticking point 198 00:11:32.440 --> 00:11:34.480 for these banks, right and they're going to fight tooth 199 00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:36.840 and nail. But we're gonna have to wait and see 200 00:11:36.960 --> 00:11:39.440 what what the compromise might be. I know it's a 201 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:42.480 hard question, but you know, what do you what's your 202 00:11:42.519 --> 00:11:44.639 best guess about the compromise. 203 00:11:46.279 --> 00:11:48.440 I think there's a way to do this where you're 204 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:52.200 focused more on activities than you know, a lot of 205 00:11:51.639 --> 00:11:56.840 the the senators who have concerns are worried about paying 206 00:11:56.879 --> 00:12:03.120 rewards on on the payment stable coins that are just 207 00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:07.240 sitting there idly. In their mind, that looks a lot 208 00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:10.559 like a deposit. And so you know, there's probably a 209 00:12:10.600 --> 00:12:12.720 way to do this where you're focused more on the 210 00:12:12.759 --> 00:12:16.200 activity the use of the stable coin there. You know, 211 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:20.240 there there's a utility to a stable coin, so maybe 212 00:12:20.279 --> 00:12:25.799 the rewards are associated with that. I think Crypto has 213 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:29.120 put up or the stable coin stakeholders have offered a 214 00:12:29.320 --> 00:12:33.279 number of options. They have spent a lot of time 215 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:37.879 trying to come up with options that would work based 216 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:41.039 on their current business models, based on their current contracts, 217 00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:44.039 and it's just been rejected over and over again. 218 00:12:45.879 --> 00:12:50.600 So why aren't the banks concerned about staking? Because again, anecdotally, 219 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:55.200 I do both. I stake on Ethereum, Solana, Cardono and 220 00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:58.320 so forth, so I have capitals sitting there earning, and 221 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:00.519 I also I do to stable coins. Why are you 222 00:13:00.600 --> 00:13:02.000 not so much concerned about staking? 223 00:13:03.159 --> 00:13:05.559 Well, it's funny. Even when you think about stable quains 224 00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:09.840 and you think about Genius, this wasn't something that was 225 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:12.960 part of Genius, you know, the rewards and yield issue 226 00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:17.039 that was all discussed in Genius. And I think they 227 00:13:17.080 --> 00:13:20.360 got caught flat footed in their bobbing efforts. I just 228 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:23.600 don't think they were fully informed as to what they 229 00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:28.320 were looking at, and they weren't prepared to, you know, 230 00:13:29.639 --> 00:13:32.720 take on crypto at all. They didn't realize the kind 231 00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:37.000 of political power that crypto now has because so many 232 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:40.600 Americans own and use crypto, and so they were just 233 00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:44.799 kind of caught flat footed in their in their negotiations. 234 00:13:44.840 --> 00:13:49.480 Now on staking, I mean, I think again, this is 235 00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:54.200 a this is something that's unique to crypto it's not 236 00:13:54.440 --> 00:13:58.240 something that banks do, so they probably would say, you know, 237 00:13:58.320 --> 00:14:00.000 maybe maybe it has to do with the fact that, 238 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:03.000 you know, they don't know how to do it technologically, 239 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:06.240 or they are unaware of some of the ways that 240 00:14:06.279 --> 00:14:10.360 it works. Sometimes it's hard to understand if you haven't 241 00:14:10.360 --> 00:14:13.679 been in this business and in crypto markets, it's hard 242 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:17.720 to understand what staking is. So I think it's maybe 243 00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:23.399 a combination of not fully understanding the the what staking 244 00:14:23.519 --> 00:14:28.159 is and you know, this isn't the this isn't what 245 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:30.279 they're fighting right now. They've got a lot of fronts 246 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:32.440 that they're fighting on and I think they've got to 247 00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:34.039 pick and choose where they want to fight. 248 00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:37.559 Yeah, I think the keyword used there they got caught 249 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:41.120 flat footed, right. It seems like because the Genius Act 250 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:44.240 passed and then after they're not trying to re litigate, like, 251 00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:47.879 oh no, wait, what's just happened. So to your point, 252 00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:50.600 maybe you haven't gotten to the staking component. But if 253 00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:54.879 they were really thinking about all fronts of where capital 254 00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:59.159 potentially can leave the bank accounts and go into certain 255 00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:04.159 things that er a greater return. Staking is another big one, 256 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:06.320 especially you can do it in et apps and much more. 257 00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:10.200 But maybe to your point, the stable coins US dollar 258 00:15:10.279 --> 00:15:12.759 back stable coins are easier for them to understand, and 259 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:15.480 and you know that folks can move money easily too 260 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:17.679 with the with the utility of the stable coins. 261 00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:22.840 I also think that it's part of it. You know, 262 00:15:23.559 --> 00:15:27.759 they have a lot to deal with right now, you know, 263 00:15:28.120 --> 00:15:30.480 the genius yield thing, and they got caught flood footed. 264 00:15:30.519 --> 00:15:33.519 They kind of were coming from behind to fight against us. 265 00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:36.960 And then you've seen some of the recent true socials 266 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:42.960 from the President about capping credit card fees, about crapping 267 00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:46.559 interchange fees, and so it is. It's probably a bit 268 00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:50.279 of a bandwidth issue, but again the arguments are the same. 269 00:15:50.360 --> 00:15:54.440 Consumers should have choice. We shouldn't try to entrench traditional 270 00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:57.440 finance by stifling innovation. 271 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:02.960 Absolutely, now, potentially some are there could be a government 272 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:05.559 shutdown I think at the end of this month. Are 273 00:16:05.559 --> 00:16:08.559 you hearing anything about that? And could that delay uh, 274 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:11.960 you know, the negotiations around the Market Structure bill and 275 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:15.360 even the passing maybe if it's going to happen Q 276 00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:17.679 two or whatever it may be, you know, could that 277 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:19.159 affect the time. 278 00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:23.639 The appropriations process is going much better this time around 279 00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:26.960 than it did before the government shutdown feels like it 280 00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:29.279 was just yesterday. I know it's been over for a 281 00:16:29.320 --> 00:16:33.519 little while, but they have passed some appropriation bills, so 282 00:16:33.559 --> 00:16:35.399 there are certain parts of the government that they have, 283 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:40.159 you know, already decided on their their funding for the 284 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:45.240 fiscal year. They are in the process of negotiating others, 285 00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:49.080 and I think that both sides recognize another shutdown is 286 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:52.240 not helpful to anyone. So let's get this done so 287 00:16:52.279 --> 00:16:55.559 that we can, you know, move on to other important 288 00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:57.399 issues like crypto legislation. 289 00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:01.679 Some are best guess. I'm not going to hold this 290 00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:05.279 to you because we are all guessing here. Do you 291 00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:07.559 think this bill, maybe by the end of Q one 292 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:10.440 or early Q two, is making its way to President 293 00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:11.079 Trump's desk. 294 00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:14.759 That's my hope, and I think it can be done. 295 00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:18.759 I never put a percentage on anything that's going through 296 00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:21.960 Congress because there are so many things that can disrupt 297 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:25.359 the process. But I think that they are on the 298 00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:28.839 right track to get this done in Q one maybe 299 00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:32.000 Q two. It still has to go back to the House. 300 00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:34.759 Whatever the Senate passes, that'll take a little of the time. 301 00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:38.440 But the parties that need to be committed or at 302 00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:43.759 the table negotiating. The steps that need to happen are happening, 303 00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:48.359 and you've got the right players in place, people who 304 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:53.039 really do want to see this framework become law. So 305 00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:56.160 you've got all the right pieces of the puzzle in place, 306 00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:58.119 and it's just a matter of putting them in the 307 00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:00.839 right place so we can get this bill done and 308 00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:02.039 get it signed by the President. 309 00:18:03.079 --> 00:18:06.599 Absolutely. I wanted to ask you about a new bill 310 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:09.960 that was introduced by Senator Cynthia Lummus and as well 311 00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:12.519 as debt with Democrat Ron White in supporting it, the 312 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:16.359 Blockchain Regulatory Certainty Act, which is to help protect DeFi. 313 00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:19.119 You know, I recall a letter from Citadel to the 314 00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:21.599 SEC about DeFi and it seems there's a big push 315 00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:24.720 against it. What are your thoughts on this bill? And 316 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:29.240 you know, I'm worried we're going to lose some of 317 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:31.880 the ethos of DeFi because of the big pushback we're seeing. 318 00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:36.000 Yeah, that's a big concern in the bill. The legislation 319 00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:39.000 you you talked about is part of the Senate Banking Bill, 320 00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:41.799 it is part of the House Clarity Bill. It's very 321 00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:46.319 important to defy and I think what we've been fighting 322 00:18:46.359 --> 00:18:49.880 back against is this kind of thought that there's a 323 00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:53.960 way to you know, that this isn't that people forget. 324 00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:57.079 This is code. This is code, open source code. This 325 00:18:57.240 --> 00:19:00.839 is not somebody operating and operating in exchange. And when 326 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:04.759 you put certain rules on top of DeFi that don't 327 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:10.640 work for DeFi, you force an intermediary and that's going 328 00:19:10.680 --> 00:19:14.759 backwards in kind of the innovation here. So it's important 329 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:21.000 to have those protections in place. It's important for those 330 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:24.680 parties involved to remember that we're talking about open source code. 331 00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:29.640 We're not talking about any person or any company that's 332 00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:34.279 controlling this code and how it operates. And at the 333 00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:37.200 you know, I think it's important for them to remember that. 334 00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:40.720 You know, you can put certain rules in place, and 335 00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:42.680 what's going to happen is you're going to drive all 336 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:45.240 this liquidity offshore. People are going to be able to 337 00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:50.680 do the same thing offshore, and you'll lose this market, 338 00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:54.839 this innovation in the United States to someplace where there's 339 00:19:54.920 --> 00:19:56.960 more friendlier laws. 340 00:19:57.680 --> 00:19:59.839 Yeah, and you know, right across the pond, the e 341 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:02.680 you they've got their legislation in place. It's not perfect, 342 00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:05.400 but they've got it in place. And you know, folks 343 00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:08.519 that are able to know what they can do, how 344 00:20:08.519 --> 00:20:11.160 they can invest and build, and I can't wait for 345 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:13.240 that to happen here in the United States and we 346 00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:14.519 can unlock a lot of growth. 347 00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:20.160 Yeah. Absolutely, Mica. In the EU too, it's been you 348 00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:22.519 know that we have a lot of member companies that 349 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:27.480 are global, many of them have you know, registered under MECA, 350 00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:30.920 and you know some of the disclosures and the way 351 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:35.799 they handle new tokens is I've heard people say it's cleaner, 352 00:20:35.839 --> 00:20:39.079 it's easier than the way we're approaching it. So there's 353 00:20:39.079 --> 00:20:41.880 probably something we can learn from what they've done in 354 00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:45.440 Europe and in the UK and use some of those 355 00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:47.640 best practices to try to get to a good place 356 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:48.480 in the US. 357 00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:53.279 Absolutely. I did want to ask you about new CFDC 358 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:56.359 chairman Mike Sile getting confirmed and how you're feeling about that. 359 00:20:56.440 --> 00:20:58.240 And you know, I know he's got to fill in 360 00:20:58.279 --> 00:21:01.720 the commissioner roles and all these things, but what were 361 00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:04.400 your thoughts on, you know, your old agency having a 362 00:21:04.440 --> 00:21:04.880 new chairman. 363 00:21:05.720 --> 00:21:08.440 Yeah, I think it's great. He brings a fresh perspective 364 00:21:08.519 --> 00:21:13.000 to the CFTC. He has a great background in the 365 00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:18.200 crypto markets. He understands the regulatory issues that the markets 366 00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:20.960 are up against. From his time at the SEC and 367 00:21:21.160 --> 00:21:24.640 on the task Force. He's a brilliant lawyer. He knows 368 00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:29.359 these bills and these the legislation and the law that 369 00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:34.720 backs up the CFTC and the SEC. And he's going 370 00:21:34.759 --> 00:21:39.160 to be a great kind of new energy to the 371 00:21:39.160 --> 00:21:45.200 CFTC that it needs. He's coming in fresh, and I 372 00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:47.039 think he's going to have like a new set of 373 00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:50.240 new set of eyes on what the way things are 374 00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:52.880 being handled and how to make sure that the agency 375 00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:55.920 is fulfill in its mission. And part of their mission 376 00:21:56.160 --> 00:22:00.400 is to promote responsible innovation, and I think he's going 377 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:02.680 that put that at the top of his list of 378 00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:06.319 important things to think about when he's when he's running 379 00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:06.960 the agency. 380 00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:10.640 Yeah. Absolutely, I see. He was also setting up the 381 00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:14.920 council with the CEO's innovation, I forget what it's called, 382 00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:18.000 but includes crypto companies and other set companies as well. 383 00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:21.319 So it's really great. Yeah. And the CFTC has a 384 00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:25.960 long history of engaging stakeholders. You know, not all agencies 385 00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:30.720 welcome their stakeholders in the door and ask them to, 386 00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:33.960 you know, help them do their job better. I would 387 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:36.839 say the CFTC has done that for a long time. 388 00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:39.799 They have a lot of advisory committees and they really 389 00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:43.279 rely on the product that comes out of those advisory committees. 390 00:22:43.359 --> 00:22:46.680 So this this CEO Council, I think is going to 391 00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:48.359 be a really good thing. It's going to be really 392 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:50.720 helpful to Stealing because he gets his kind of feet 393 00:22:50.759 --> 00:22:53.880 under him. But it's just again, it's an opportunity to 394 00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:56.240 hear from stakeholders to make sure that what you're doing 395 00:22:56.279 --> 00:23:00.720 on the regulatory front doesn't hurt what being you know, 396 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:03.680 what the where the innovation is going, where the technology 397 00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:04.160 is going. 398 00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:08.720 Absolutely, final item here I wanted to ask you about 399 00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:12.039 was the anti CBDC bill and what's the status of that. 400 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:15.240 It didn't make its way into the Defense bill that 401 00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:18.640