WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:02.319 Can I just say, Steve, you have not pressed any 2 00:00:02.359 --> 00:00:05.799 of your bodily function sound effects on your keyboard, Thank 3 00:00:05.839 --> 00:00:06.400 you very much. 4 00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:08.240 Actually I did, but you don't have headphones on, so 5 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:10.439 you didn't have them. 6 00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:16.039 Well wifty com and fame my pain, my honeys, my brain, 7 00:00:16.399 --> 00:00:17.760 Oh whiskey. 8 00:00:18.039 --> 00:00:20.839 Don't why think alone when you can drink it all 9 00:00:20.879 --> 00:00:25.039 in with Ricochet's Three Whiskey Happy Hour. Join your bartenders, 10 00:00:25.199 --> 00:00:32.640 Steve Hayward, John You, and the international Woman of Mystery, Lucretia. 11 00:00:34.079 --> 00:00:37.320 Where this lapdopp and live. It ain't easy on the 12 00:00:37.439 --> 00:00:41.520 soul taps. Gotta give me and let that whiskey cloone. 13 00:00:43.479 --> 00:00:46.920 Welcome everyone to this edition, which is super special of 14 00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:50.359 the Three Whiskey Happy Hour because the three of us 15 00:00:50.439 --> 00:00:54.719 are together in Texas at the School of Civic Leadership 16 00:00:55.200 --> 00:00:59.679 for a conference on the Pursuit of Happiness, and we 17 00:00:59.719 --> 00:01:03.159 all still have with us a very special guest, Phil. 18 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:04.120 It's great to be here. 19 00:01:04.200 --> 00:01:09.200 Oh I thought it was me. I feel like I've 20 00:01:09.200 --> 00:01:11.760 been a guest for five years. Listen to your crack pots, 21 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:12.840 trousi and stuff. 22 00:01:14.159 --> 00:01:16.840 You're always our favorite guest. I'm sorry to have to 23 00:01:16.879 --> 00:01:18.879 tell you that, Phil, but John's our favorite guest. 24 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:22.040 Well, Phil has been begging like a dog to get 25 00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:24.079 on for the longest time, so it's a funny time 26 00:01:24.079 --> 00:01:24.439 to get. 27 00:01:24.359 --> 00:01:25.719 And we want to work on you know. 28 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:27.879 But actually, Phil, we can either beat up on you 29 00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:29.599 or we can recruit you to help us beat up 30 00:01:29.599 --> 00:01:31.799 on John because you know that's our favorite. 31 00:01:31.799 --> 00:01:33.920 Because it still won't be fair fight. I need two 32 00:01:33.959 --> 00:01:34.799 more you guys. 33 00:01:35.159 --> 00:01:37.000 If he ever beats up on me, I wish they 34 00:01:37.000 --> 00:01:40.400 would so I could really go after him. Anyway. Anyway, 35 00:01:40.840 --> 00:01:43.280 we're very happy to be together. It's it's a lot 36 00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:46.280 of fun to spend time with these guys, honestly, if 37 00:01:46.280 --> 00:01:48.319 I have to be honest, and we have a really 38 00:01:48.319 --> 00:01:51.079 great show for you today. First we want to talk 39 00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:54.840 for just a moment about what's going on in Washington, 40 00:01:54.920 --> 00:02:00.439 d C. You know, it's it's actually funny. There's really 41 00:02:00.519 --> 00:02:03.239 serious news going on. But what is the news dominated 42 00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:08.120 about by Tiger Woods. I suppose that's because of his 43 00:02:08.199 --> 00:02:12.599 connection to the president. And then of course Christy nom 44 00:02:12.639 --> 00:02:15.000 who's asking her husband if there's anything he needs to 45 00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:15.919 get off his chest. 46 00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:21.599 Oh well, I hope I still the creat is out 47 00:02:21.599 --> 00:02:22.439 there taking notes. 48 00:02:22.960 --> 00:02:24.400 We thought, you know, we thought. 49 00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:26.719 Trump Trump came in and got rid of the EI. 50 00:02:26.840 --> 00:02:28.280 We would have thought he would have exiled all the 51 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:30.080 cross dressers from Washington, but apparently not. 52 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:32.159 That was not on my Bengo car out. Oh. 53 00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:35.319 I don't even know if cross dressing is well. I don't. 54 00:02:35.400 --> 00:02:37.120 I don't want to discuss it. That's enough of that. 55 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:42.280 I suppose that in a slow news time, if they'd 56 00:02:42.360 --> 00:02:44.680 rather talk about that than they're on war. How do 57 00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:47.199 you think thereon war's going, John, I think. 58 00:02:47.080 --> 00:02:48.439 It's going extremely well. 59 00:02:48.599 --> 00:02:52.919 When the only military problem you have is right, elimiting 60 00:02:53.039 --> 00:02:56.639 small units running around the coastline of the Strait of 61 00:02:56.639 --> 00:03:00.000 Horror moves, that means we have completed all the other objectives. Right, 62 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:02.719 So we're flying B fifty two's over Iran now, which 63 00:03:02.759 --> 00:03:05.599 are sitting ducks. If you actually had any airing aircraft missiles, 64 00:03:05.639 --> 00:03:10.280 we've got Apache helicopters. That means you have complete air dominance. 65 00:03:10.639 --> 00:03:13.960 There's I think I saw something like fourteen thousand targets 66 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:17.280 now hit and Trump. I mean, you love him or 67 00:03:17.319 --> 00:03:19.159 you hate him for his rhetoric, but last night he says, 68 00:03:19.159 --> 00:03:21.360 you know, we're going to bomb him back to the Stone. 69 00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:23.159 Age, and then he goes where they belong. 70 00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:28.240 So, I mean, you know, I really think people don't 71 00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:31.439 understand how military campaigns work. There's not a video game 72 00:03:31.479 --> 00:03:34.439 where it's over in two or three hours. This is actually, 73 00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:38.560 again a tremendous feed of American arms. Now that's totally 74 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:41.439 different than what the political solution should be. But you 75 00:03:41.560 --> 00:03:44.560 can't win a war more militarily in a more military 76 00:03:44.599 --> 00:03:46.800 dominant way than what we're doing with Iran. 77 00:03:47.560 --> 00:03:50.400 I think maybe the problem is Trump's. 78 00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:54.080 Lack of rhetorical ability actually makes it difficult for him 79 00:03:54.120 --> 00:03:56.879 to explain to the country how well the war is going. 80 00:03:57.599 --> 00:04:02.280 But he does have some very articulate underlings who could 81 00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:05.520 do that for him. Marco Rubio is great. Pete hag 82 00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:08.599 Seth gets so much fun made of him. You know, 83 00:04:08.680 --> 00:04:11.919 he's he's vilified by everybody that he may not be 84 00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:13.840 taken quite as seriously, but he's also. 85 00:04:13.639 --> 00:04:15.159 A very I think he's doing a good job. 86 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:17.360 Actually, I think he's doing way better at this than 87 00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:19.160 he has at the other things he's been up to. 88 00:04:19.639 --> 00:04:22.279 And I think, you know, Dan raising Kane right like, 89 00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:25.360 he's doing a good job explaining it's just people expect 90 00:04:25.399 --> 00:04:29.560 outrageous results outside the realm of reality, right like they 91 00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:31.399 kind of think the Iranians were going to just surrender. 92 00:04:31.759 --> 00:04:33.879 Now, poor Phil, we're just walking all over you here 93 00:04:33.959 --> 00:04:35.319 at the opening, you should say. 94 00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:38.279 Hello and Phil. I thought we were done with Phil. 95 00:04:40.759 --> 00:04:42.879 Still hear he's still here. 96 00:04:43.439 --> 00:04:46.600 Well, they could comment about John a question, a technical 97 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:49.399 question that if anybody knows anything about it might be you, John, 98 00:04:49.399 --> 00:04:50.920 because I don't. I know, I don't, but I'm hol 99 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:53.600 enough to remember Lyingbacker too, and youone know. 100 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:55.439 What that was. Yeah, from Vietnam exactly. 101 00:04:55.480 --> 00:04:57.240 But we lost a lot of B fifty twos in 102 00:04:57.240 --> 00:04:59.959 the closing weeks of that because you know, the Phoviet 103 00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:03.720 supplied air defenses were pretty good against those high altitude bombers. 104 00:05:04.639 --> 00:05:06.639 And you mentioned the B fifty two is can fly 105 00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:09.319 now with impunity. Is that because the Iranian has never 106 00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:11.160 bothered to get any serious. 107 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:15.639 An No, no, no, they had top lines. I was 108 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:18.959 about to say, Soviet, Russian and Chinese air defense systems. 109 00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:22.680 This is why China and Russia are freaking out, because 110 00:05:23.079 --> 00:05:27.120 it showed Venezuela and Iran had you know, Russian and 111 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:31.000 Chinese anti aircraft defense systems. And they haven't shot down 112 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:34.879 a single American Israeli plane, not one. We lost more 113 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:37.720 in the Persian Gulf War just seen as one of 114 00:05:37.759 --> 00:05:39.120 the great all time successes. 115 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:42.120 That's Phil. Phil pulled the. 116 00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:45.439 Fire alarm to stop me from talking. 117 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:51.240 It's just a test. Sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm 118 00:05:51.279 --> 00:05:53.839 gonna just go off on a tangent here for a moment. 119 00:05:53.839 --> 00:05:56.319 I'm trying to explain to my students in class yesterday 120 00:05:56.319 --> 00:06:02.160 what it was like for the for the for those 121 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:04.519 of us who grew up during the years of the 122 00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:07.199 Cold War, what it was like when we got those alerts, 123 00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:11.480 and how we would, you know, be told to find shelter, 124 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:14.720 Go under your desk, put your leg, your head between 125 00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:17.399 your life and Chris you can cover, kiss your you 126 00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:20.279 know what. Goodbye is what we all understood, even at 127 00:06:20.279 --> 00:06:22.199 a very young age, like your desk was going to 128 00:06:22.279 --> 00:06:24.759 protect you from a nuclear attack. Anyway. 129 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:27.160 Why there is this great scene from Airplane you or 130 00:06:27.240 --> 00:06:29.800 that joke movie. I'm sure it's one of Steve's favorite movies. 131 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:33.120 A lot of Steve's humor clearly comes from Airplane I remember, 132 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:36.800 like they're going down animal, there's just like very you know, 133 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:40.079 demure woman who dresses like Lucretia with the Catholic cross 134 00:06:40.079 --> 00:06:44.000 and everything sank to the man in the passenger, I'm 135 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:46.360 a virgin, and if we're all gonna die, could you? 136 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:48.879 And then it would and then like five minutes later 137 00:06:48.920 --> 00:06:50.439 she's with another guy, I'm a. 138 00:06:50.439 --> 00:06:54.639 Virgin before we go down. Throughout the movie they would 139 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:57.240 show her like with a different No. 140 00:06:57.360 --> 00:07:00.519 I do remember an episode from the nineteen eight too, 141 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:03.680 Israeli Syrian War, really right, and that was another case 142 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:07.120 of where American technology was so far superior. And the 143 00:07:07.160 --> 00:07:10.279 Arab said of the Soviets, Syrians and others said, so 144 00:07:10.439 --> 00:07:13.560 you know, you gave us these surface to air missiles. 145 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:16.519 Next time, we would like surface to plane missiles, please, 146 00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:17.639 So you can ask something. 147 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:20.360 But once you're seeing about this before, at least feel 148 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:21.639 still here did we get rid of No? 149 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:24.720 He's so? I actually no, no. 150 00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:24.839 So. 151 00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:28.399 I actually studied the Israel Syrian War for a book 152 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:30.639 I wrote, And it's not the equipment. 153 00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:31.879 This is the interesting thing. 154 00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:35.800 Soviet equipment sometimes was better rated than American equipment, but 155 00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:38.920 it was a command and control on how to fight. Yeah, 156 00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:41.199 and so these and I'm sure this happened in ron. 157 00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:44.160 Especially in countries where you don't trust the loyalty of people, 158 00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:47.439 you have to very strict hierarchical command and control, and 159 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:51.680 American and Israeli fighting is lowest commanders make the decisions. 160 00:07:51.720 --> 00:07:55.560 You're allowed to improvise, take initiative, and it kicks the 161 00:07:55.639 --> 00:07:57.800 crap out of these So if you're China you're thinking 162 00:07:57.800 --> 00:08:00.759 about invading Taiwan, you're a little worried right now because 163 00:08:00.839 --> 00:08:06.959 American technology plus training and organization crushes Russian and Chinese 164 00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:09.360 centralized control command and control. 165 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:13.199 Forces, even if the technology is inferior. Yeah, that's interesting. 166 00:08:13.480 --> 00:08:16.480 I'm sure it's like something about the difference between Plato 167 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:20.240 and Aristotle. I'm sure, like we're the Platonic fighters and 168 00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:23.839 they're like the little ants that Aristotelian fighters over in 169 00:08:23.920 --> 00:08:26.720 Russian China. 170 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:29.839 You know, we can actually, I know, you could muscles 171 00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:32.679 out of the sky. Now, remember when during the nineteen 172 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:38.120 eighties that was considered Star Wars technology and Reaganagan was 173 00:08:38.200 --> 00:08:41.399 absolutely right, was right again. But what it reminds me 174 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:46.480 of is is how there is just this huge pantheon 175 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:49.679 of opposition to whatever Trump does. That was the same 176 00:08:49.679 --> 00:08:52.600 thing with Reagan. You know, the Soviets believed we could 177 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:54.000 do Star Wars what was it called the. 178 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:57.039 Strategy, But you know, I always thought. 179 00:08:57.200 --> 00:08:59.519 I always thought calling it Star Wars was a huge 180 00:08:59.600 --> 00:09:02.200 blunder of the left because your average American said. 181 00:09:02.039 --> 00:09:03.879 Oh, Star, I love Star Wars. You could do that. 182 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:04.320 Yeah. 183 00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:06.600 No, they pulled, always pulled really well, and you know, 184 00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:07.799 so that was okay. 185 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:10.559 Okay, Well yeah, Phil is Phil still here? 186 00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:14.399 Okay. I'm gonna you guys stop being mean to phil' 187 00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:17.759 and ask Phil some questions which I know. I've actually 188 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:20.919 had about half a dozen people reach out to me, 189 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:23.519 listeners reach out to me over the last i'm gonna say, 190 00:09:23.639 --> 00:09:27.200 eight nine months asking about this question, believe it or not. 191 00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:29.720 And I keep saying, yes, we're gonna get Phil Munos 192 00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:31.679 on and he's going to explain it to us. I 193 00:09:31.799 --> 00:09:38.840 want Phil to explain where we are after the Kennedy 194 00:09:38.919 --> 00:09:42.240 versus Bremerton decision, which came out at right about the 195 00:09:42.279 --> 00:09:46.759 same time as the Dobbs decision. The Kennedy versus Bremerton. 196 00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:51.639 Dobbs is the you know, overturning abortion rights. The Kennedy 197 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:55.440 versus Bremerton is a First Amendment freedom of religion decision, 198 00:09:55.480 --> 00:09:57.879 and it was really quite earth shaking, but it didn't 199 00:09:57.919 --> 00:10:02.639 get very much attention. So take it away, but tell listeners. 200 00:10:02.279 --> 00:10:04.840 What that case was about. Sure, well, it's great to 201 00:10:04.879 --> 00:10:06.399 be here. I think. 202 00:10:08.759 --> 00:10:11.039 You'll regret it by the time we're donn Well, it's I. 203 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:13.240 Know, I'm very thankful to be here for a reason. 204 00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:15.279 You guys don't even know. It's it's Holy week. We're 205 00:10:15.320 --> 00:10:18.039 recording her in Holy week and recently went to confession 206 00:10:18.159 --> 00:10:20.080 and my priest was like, you need to find do 207 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:21.320 something very penitential. 208 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:25.519 And so when you offered, I thought, perfect, nothing. 209 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:29.960 I don't understand any string of words. 210 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:32.159 To find somebody poor and give them some money. 211 00:10:32.200 --> 00:10:35.639 Phil that's what I'm completing the sacrament by being here 212 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:36.080 with you. 213 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:38.919 Can we give them one of the would call those 214 00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:41.240 things the scourges that you hit yourself with. 215 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:46.159 I mean, let's go elevates. Elevate your game, phill Oh 216 00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:47.360 Kennedy Kennedy v. 217 00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:53.600 Bremerton, UH Supreme Court decision that involved a high school 218 00:10:53.639 --> 00:10:57.320 football coach who would prey on the fifty yard line 219 00:10:57.720 --> 00:11:01.440 after the team's games. So public high school and you 220 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:03.799 know how like the NFL play players and sometimes the 221 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:05.639 coaches gather on the fifty yard line. 222 00:11:05.799 --> 00:11:07.360 So this coach would do this. 223 00:11:08.879 --> 00:11:13.360 In Bremerton, Washington, outside of Seattle, a big naval naval 224 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:17.559 base there, and he'd done this practice, this prayer practice 225 00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:20.639 for years, I think something like seven years, and then 226 00:11:21.519 --> 00:11:24.840 it wasn't a big deal. And the way it actually 227 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:30.960 gets attention is an opposing coach mentioned it to someone 228 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:34.919 in the superintendent's office, the public school office, and said, 229 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:36.519 you know, it's great that this coach is able to 230 00:11:36.559 --> 00:11:39.639 do this, and like within a week, the superintendents that 231 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:43.480 told him, you can't do this anymore, and it caused 232 00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:48.480 a local stir and he ended up they told him 233 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:50.320 you can go pray in the press box as long 234 00:11:50.360 --> 00:11:52.279 as after the game, as long as the students can't 235 00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:55.840 see you, and he was, you know, sort of obstinate 236 00:11:55.840 --> 00:11:58.679 about it, and then the community really supported him. So 237 00:11:59.159 --> 00:12:01.440 he was always praying the fifty yard line and then 238 00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:04.879 the game all of sudden became about him in this episode, 239 00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:07.000 and so his contract wasn't renewed. 240 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:09.320 So he basically got fired. 241 00:12:09.159 --> 00:12:11.799 In his story for praying on the fifty yard line 242 00:12:12.320 --> 00:12:14.840 a high school football game. Okay, fast forward, it gets 243 00:12:14.840 --> 00:12:17.879 all the way to the Supreme Court. Supreme Court rules 244 00:12:17.919 --> 00:12:22.759 in favor of coach Kennedy and says the school districts 245 00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:27.559 violated his free exercise rights, free exercise of religion. But 246 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:32.360 the real importance, or the trinal importance, it was that 247 00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:36.559 the court said, and all of that establishment claused jurisprudence, 248 00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:40.919 that where previous courts said a wall of separation and 249 00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:44.639 the Lemon test, which is the way they enforced the 250 00:12:44.679 --> 00:12:49.120 wall of separation, were abandoning that. Now that was the 251 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:53.759 court's term, a term they used that those precedents have 252 00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:58.039 been abandoned. And I don't quite know why they said abandoned. 253 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:02.279 They didn't overturn. They just said, we've stopped using these precedents. 254 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:06.519 So it seems it seems that they were instructing the 255 00:13:06.519 --> 00:13:10.519 lower courts to stop saying that the First Amendment erects 256 00:13:10.519 --> 00:13:13.720 a wall of separation, and also to stop using Lemon 257 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:17.200 the three part Lemon test. All laws must have a 258 00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:22.039 secular purpose, cannot advance religion, and cannot cause excessive entanglement 259 00:13:22.159 --> 00:13:25.080 with religion. Such a vague test you could reach whatever 260 00:13:25.159 --> 00:13:28.840 result you wanted, and yet, and often to the detriment 261 00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:34.080 of religious believers. So supposedly those precedents have been abandoned 262 00:13:34.120 --> 00:13:38.080 and therefore presumably should not be used now. But what 263 00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:41.120 can when now to finally get to your question, well, 264 00:13:41.159 --> 00:13:43.600 what does this mean. What does the establishment clause actually 265 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:46.559 now prohibit? If it's not the wall of separation, what 266 00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:50.600 is it? What can the state not do visa an 267 00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:55.320 establishment of religion? And here it's just not clear. Just 268 00:13:55.480 --> 00:14:00.240 we don't have a clear doctrine. Justice Scalia said state 269 00:14:00.279 --> 00:14:04.799 cannot coerce religion because religious establishments were coersive. It's plausible 270 00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:08.759 the court seems to be disposed to look at the 271 00:14:08.159 --> 00:14:13.200 history and tradition to find out what is allowed. But 272 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:16.720 of course that something's allowed doesn't tell you what's prohibited. 273 00:14:17.480 --> 00:14:19.519 So right now, I think we don't have a clear 274 00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:25.720 understanding of what the establishment clause prohibits a legislator, legislature, 275 00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:29.200 or a school district. It's just not clear what is 276 00:14:29.240 --> 00:14:30.600 prohibited by the First Amendment. 277 00:14:32.440 --> 00:14:35.519 So I think that the question has taken on in 278 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:43.639 some ways a new importance because people because you're seeing 279 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:49.159 an interesting sort of alliance between maybe call it fundamental 280 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:56.559 Christians and Muslims, first of all asking for a free 281 00:14:56.600 --> 00:15:00.240 exercise of religion, but on the other hand, then the 282 00:15:00.279 --> 00:15:03.240 same Christians who might have been pushing for prayer in 283 00:15:03.399 --> 00:15:05.919 schools and reading the Bible in schools are now getting 284 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:08.960 very concerned about the possibility. Here we are in Texas, 285 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:12.720 where you know, there's rumors all the time that entire 286 00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:16.919 cities are being erected that are going to have there 287 00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:19.919 They're going to be you know, Islamic cities with Sharia 288 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:22.080 law and so forth. You know, who knows about all 289 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:24.840 of that. But it does bring up some interesting questions 290 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:29.399 because we've even had these these sort of questions before. 291 00:15:29.639 --> 00:15:35.120 Is there a fundamental separation of church and state that 292 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:40.519 would prevent any kind of religion from taking hold in 293 00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:43.279 any sort of official way. And if we have prayer 294 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:45.120 and schools we started talking at the beginning, if we 295 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:48.080 have prayer and schools, how long before then we have 296 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:52.399 to have equal time and we have to you know, 297 00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:53.879 pray towards Mecca. 298 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:57.440 Well, I think the big question, the next really big question, 299 00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:01.440 could be do we have is it constitutional to have 300 00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:06.080 prayer in public schools? The leading president or one of 301 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:08.559 the leading precedents still in the books nineteen sixty two 302 00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:12.360 Ingle Versus Fatale, there's. 303 00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:13.240 The regent's prayer. 304 00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:15.960 The regent's prayer was a prayer composed by the regents, 305 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:19.720 the officials in charge of the new York school district. 306 00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:23.600 And it was a very simple prayer, one sentence. Gosh, 307 00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:25.360 I can't remember it off the top of my head, but. 308 00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:28.440 It was, oh great, pumpkin, wasn't it something like that, you. 309 00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:33.360 Know, thank God for the blessings of the country in 310 00:16:33.399 --> 00:16:37.840 our families and easily look it up. That was ruled 311 00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:42.639 unconstitutional in nineteen sixty two. So perhaps we'll have questions 312 00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:45.840 about post the Ten Commandments in school, But the really 313 00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:49.279 big question will be can you have prayer led by 314 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:52.240 the school district or the teacher, even composed by the teacher? 315 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:56.519 Is prayer in public school? School led prayer constitutional? 316 00:16:57.799 --> 00:16:58.000 Yeah? 317 00:16:58.039 --> 00:17:00.919 I mean well, I certainly wouldn't want some government written 318 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:05.039 prayer that's generic and lowest common denominator. But what about 319 00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:07.720 jaff as mischievous suggestion from you know, thirty years ago? 320 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:08.960 He said, look, you want to bring back prayer in 321 00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:11.920 public schools, Let's try this. He noted that forty nine 322 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:14.920 of the fifty state constitutions have language. It sounds like 323 00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:17.680 the Declaration of Independence or the state constitutions from the 324 00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:19.599 seventeen eighties, even. 325 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:21.079 Repeated by Alaska Hawaii. 326 00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:24.480 Our last two states have preambles that say grateful to 327 00:17:24.519 --> 00:17:26.880 God as the author of our rights, et cetera, et cetera. 328 00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:29.079 And so why not say. 329 00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:34.119 School children shall recite the preamble to the state Constitution 330 00:17:34.359 --> 00:17:36.839 at the beginning of every school day and then watch 331 00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:40.039 the ACLU say that it's unconstitutional to recite the Constitution. 332 00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:42.319 I think that would be a fun day in federal court. 333 00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:45.880 Now, you're right, especially these early state declarations of rights 334 00:17:45.880 --> 00:17:49.599 and constitutions have reference to Almighty God and the Creator. 335 00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:54.880 And it'd be hard to say that the Massachusetts can't 336 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:58.519 the school children mass Jessas can't recite the beginning of 337 00:17:58.559 --> 00:18:01.759 the seventeen eighty Massachusets Institution. But I think, you know, 338 00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:05.160 I think the the people who really want prayer in school, 339 00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:07.759 really they really want prayer in school. They don't want 340 00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:12.240 a civic document. They want prayer. And whether that's a 341 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:14.799 good idea, whether it's constitutional is one question. Whether it's 342 00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:16.880 a good idea, is it also a separate question? 343 00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:21.799 John, what do you want to say? 344 00:18:22.279 --> 00:18:27.519 Can we talk about something interesting? I'm so bored over here. 345 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:28.880 I'm sorry. 346 00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:32.599 Well, we were talking about shooting down Russian Jatson. Now 347 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:35.160 we're talking about some coach wants to pray at the 348 00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:37.160 fifty yard line some two bit. 349 00:18:37.079 --> 00:18:40.480 High school football game. Come on, Well, I don't know. 350 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:44.680 I mean, well, okay, I can draw a veil over well, 351 00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:47.359 we could, you know. Jerry Bradley has this article out 352 00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:49.079 in First Things about how to fight her way back 353 00:18:49.079 --> 00:18:50.960 through to angle and overturn it or something, and. 354 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:52.079 I don't know I did. 355 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:54.799 I always like Ronald Reagan saying, you know, we made 356 00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:57.799 a mistake when you could do. I think a spurious 357 00:18:57.799 --> 00:18:59.839 correlation between the decline of education and the end of 358 00:18:59.839 --> 00:19:02.680 school prayer. Or there's the cynics who say, as long 359 00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:06.039 as there are exams, there will still be prayer in schools. 360 00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:10.920 But Phil does think that judicial review isn't necessary for 361 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:15.279 exemptions like this, right, you still trust the legislature and 362 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:19.039 the executive branch to create the exceptions and think that 363 00:19:19.079 --> 00:19:20.599 the courts are doing too much. 364 00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:23.000 Well that yeah, that's for free exercise clause. So but 365 00:19:23.559 --> 00:19:26.359 here on the establishment clause. I mean, the prayer in 366 00:19:26.440 --> 00:19:30.519 public school is. Look the argument Jerry Bradley has his 367 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:34.079 Peace and First Things, which very very thoughtful, and it 368 00:19:34.119 --> 00:19:36.759 basically says, look, there's the type of prayer you could 369 00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:41.680 compose for public school kids. Is a prayer that it 370 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:46.039 is based on natural theology, so theology that's accessible to reason, 371 00:19:46.519 --> 00:19:50.480 that there is a God, that we should be thankful 372 00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:54.519 for being alive, and you really, you know, thank you 373 00:19:54.559 --> 00:19:57.880 for the blessings of our country, thank you for creating 374 00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:01.119 us with endowing us with rights. I think you could 375 00:20:01.160 --> 00:20:05.119 say that on reasonable grounds, meaning grounded in human reason, 376 00:20:05.519 --> 00:20:10.519 does not derive from revelation. Also, is not sectarian. Its 377 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:13.680 Catholic prayer. It's not a Jewish prayer. So I think 378 00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:18.839 you could do that constitutionally. Perhaps the difficulty is it 379 00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:25.240 uses religion for civic purposes. It instrumentalizes prayer, and I 380 00:20:25.319 --> 00:20:29.960 don't that's somewhat problematic. I think it treats prayer as 381 00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:31.240 a means and not an end. 382 00:20:31.400 --> 00:20:33.680 But why But here I saw this question. 383 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:38.039 Why if you think courts shouldn't intervene in the free 384 00:20:38.079 --> 00:20:41.440 exercise area, why should they intervene in the establishing clause 385 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:45.039 area too? Why not let them all be subject to 386 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:48.319 enforcement by the legislature and the government and the political process. 387 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:53.119 Yeah, yeah, but the court shouldn't intervene for exemptions because 388 00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:56.599 exemptions are not part of the right. So the court 389 00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:00.839 can intervene when the when the first Amendment is being violated, 390 00:21:01.079 --> 00:21:03.680 but it's not being violated when it simply burdens of 391 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:04.720 religious believers. 392 00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:08.519 This clause isn't really a right either, right, it's a 393 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:11.640 well limitation on government. It's to me it's like even 394 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:14.640 less of an individual right than free exercise, because it 395 00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:17.279 says it's forbidding the government from right setting up a 396 00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:19.599 religion doesn't actually define that as a right that you 397 00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:23.160 have in you know, that little green paradise you guys 398 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:27.359 call whatever that world is of the social contract or before? 399 00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:30.400 What is it called? Oh, state of nature? That's what 400 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:30.720 it is. 401 00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:39.240