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True Murder with your host, 30 00:01:40.400 --> 00:01:42.879 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 31 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:55.079 Good evening, This is your host Dan Szepanski for the 32 00:01:55.120 --> 00:01:58.280 program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in true crime 33 00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:01.439 History and the authors that are and about them. When 34 00:02:01.480 --> 00:02:04.680 the infamous gangster Whitey Bulger went on the lamb in 35 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:07.640 nineteen ninety five, the streets of Boston became a war 36 00:02:07.719 --> 00:02:10.520 zone between the mafia and the renegades, with the winter 37 00:02:10.599 --> 00:02:14.919 Hill Gang looking on. Rogue Mobster. The Untold Story of 38 00:02:14.960 --> 00:02:18.680 Mark Silverman and the New England Mafia chronicles the inside 39 00:02:18.719 --> 00:02:21.520 story of the Boston mob Wars of the nineteen nineties, 40 00:02:21.800 --> 00:02:24.400 when over two dozen gangsters were killed in a vicious 41 00:02:24.439 --> 00:02:28.400 war for control of the Boston underworld. Rogue Mobster is 42 00:02:28.439 --> 00:02:31.800 told in the Worlds of Mark Silverman, an outsider from 43 00:02:31.919 --> 00:02:34.840 Medford who got inside the mob and became an integral 44 00:02:34.919 --> 00:02:38.879 part of the ensuing war. His account is the first 45 00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:42.759 ever inside glimpse into what went on at the street level, 46 00:02:42.840 --> 00:02:45.639 why people were killed, and what the stakes really were. 47 00:02:46.039 --> 00:02:49.319 Silverman grew up in the shadow of Whitey Bulger, Howie Winter, 48 00:02:50.280 --> 00:02:55.000 Raymond Patriarcha, and Jerry Angelio, bosses of Boston's most infamous 49 00:02:55.000 --> 00:02:58.240 crime families with a Jewish last name. His opportunities should 50 00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:01.800 have been limited in Boston's Italian underworld, but he moved 51 00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:05.719 up quickly, gaining acceptance across the board. Silverman was made 52 00:03:05.800 --> 00:03:09.840 in the patriarch of the Patriarcha family as a reward 53 00:03:09.879 --> 00:03:12.960 for infiltrating a renegade mob faction backed by a New 54 00:03:13.039 --> 00:03:16.319 York family. The book begins with the unique history of 55 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:19.199 the Boston ganglin scene and takes the reader right up 56 00:03:19.240 --> 00:03:23.199 to the late nineteen eighties. Silverman recounts the shifting alliances 57 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:26.319 and friendships that were torn apart as the various mob 58 00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:29.599 factions battle for control of the Boston underworld through the 59 00:03:29.639 --> 00:03:33.560 early two thousands. Rogue Mobster is a first hand account 60 00:03:33.560 --> 00:03:36.360 of the violent mob wars of the nineteen nineties, when 61 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:39.759 bodies were piling up across New England and Mark Silverman 62 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:43.599 was walking a tightrope between winter Hill and the Mafia. 63 00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:44.800 The book this. 64 00:03:44.759 --> 00:03:48.840 Evening we're featuring is Rogue a Mobster with my special guests, 65 00:03:49.319 --> 00:03:53.960 Mark Silverman and Scott Dicci. Welcome to the program, gentlemen, 66 00:03:54.039 --> 00:03:57.759 and thank you to agreeing to this interview. Mark Silverman 67 00:03:57.840 --> 00:03:58.680 and Scott Decci. 68 00:03:59.319 --> 00:04:01.759 Well, thanks for us on appreciate it. 69 00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:06.319 Thank you very much, You're welcome. I'm pretty excited for 70 00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:09.840 our audience to hear another We normally don't do too 71 00:04:09.879 --> 00:04:13.520 many stories mob stories, but this is a very exciting one, 72 00:04:13.520 --> 00:04:16.600 and with this inside access that we have here, this 73 00:04:16.720 --> 00:04:21.360 is a kind of unique, even in this sort of genre. 74 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:25.439 So let's get right to it. Please, whoever wants to 75 00:04:25.480 --> 00:04:30.040 go first here, maybe Mark, I would think maybe you 76 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:33.040 can tell us set the setting for our audience where 77 00:04:33.079 --> 00:04:37.720 exactly this is in Boston, what kind of neighborhood this is, 78 00:04:37.759 --> 00:04:40.959 what's the makeup of the neighborhood. Let's maybe even set 79 00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:45.079 the year, what year this story begins basically, and what 80 00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:47.240 was the mood there at that time. Take us back 81 00:04:47.319 --> 00:04:50.639 this area in Boston where this story is set, and 82 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:52.160 take us back please. 83 00:04:52.920 --> 00:04:56.399 Well, there's a couple of neighborhoods that are involved mostly 84 00:04:56.439 --> 00:05:00.839 in this story, and one of them is called Winter Hill, 85 00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:05.319 and that's in Somerville, Massachusetts, and that's a predominantly Irish 86 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:09.399 neighborhood and it's notorious for the strength of its organized crime. 87 00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:12.959 But there's also the North End of Boston, which is 88 00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:19.439 mostly Italian, and those two groups are integral to the story, 89 00:05:19.480 --> 00:05:24.360 and that's kind of where it began. It began right 90 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:30.480 around nineteen eighty nine. Around that time when the patriarchal 91 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:37.439 crime family actually had an internal war because the family 92 00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:42.079 split into two factions, and one of the factions was 93 00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:45.279 a renegade faction from within the family. In other words, 94 00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:48.319 these guys got together and they wanted to make a 95 00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:51.759 play for power. They wanted to take down the existing 96 00:05:52.319 --> 00:05:56.759 hierarchy of the patriarcha family which I termed Cozonoustra and 97 00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:00.480 that lasted for about five years up until about maybe 98 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:04.000 ninety four ninety five, and that's when the federal government 99 00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:07.000 came in and they took down most of the renegade faction. 100 00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:11.360 But in the mafia, it multiplies, So when those guys 101 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:16.279 went to jail, another faction that represented them came up 102 00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:20.800 and in ninety five when all this stuff was clearing, 103 00:06:20.839 --> 00:06:23.759 as they were clearing out the remnants of that original 104 00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:29.360 renegade faction, Whitey Bulger and Frank Cadillac Selemmi they were 105 00:06:29.360 --> 00:06:31.959 the two leaders, Whitey Bulger of course, being the leader 106 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:34.439 of the Irish Mob and Frank Cadillac Soulemi being the 107 00:06:34.519 --> 00:06:37.639 leader of Coast and Oustra. When the indictments came down 108 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:40.560 for those guys in ninety five, they both decided to 109 00:06:40.600 --> 00:06:44.720 go on the Lamb, and Frank Clemmi lasted about seven 110 00:06:44.800 --> 00:06:47.560 months on the Lamb, and Whitey Bulger, as I'm sure 111 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:50.720 maybe your audience knows, and maybe you know, he lasted 112 00:06:50.720 --> 00:06:54.040 almost seventeen years on the Lamb. So my point being 113 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:57.240 is that during that time when the two main leaders 114 00:06:57.759 --> 00:07:00.959 were on the Lamb and on Accountant War, it just 115 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:03.839 began an all out fight for power. People tried to 116 00:07:03.879 --> 00:07:06.600 fill the void. And that's uh, that's pretty much where 117 00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:07.439 I came into the scene. 118 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:12.120 Okay, we're gonna we're gonna go switch to Scott Dicci 119 00:07:12.279 --> 00:07:15.279 and ask him a question that I'm really curious about. 120 00:07:15.639 --> 00:07:19.399 How he how you became involved with this project, Scott 121 00:07:19.480 --> 00:07:22.160 and and why it was of interest to you as 122 00:07:22.199 --> 00:07:24.600 a as a writer. And you can give us your 123 00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:27.759 background if you'd like. Uh, we'd like to hear that, 124 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:32.680 and and tell us why this story compelled you to 125 00:07:32.680 --> 00:07:36.000 write this book, and tell us where that when and 126 00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:38.600 where you made that decision and why tell us please? 127 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:42.120 Yeah, absolutely, you know I started getting interest in organized 128 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:46.879 crime and writing, started writing some articles online on the 129 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:50.920 web back late nineties, early two thousands, and then wrote 130 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:54.279 my first book, Cigar City Mafia, about the Tampa underworld 131 00:07:54.439 --> 00:07:56.680 in two that came out in two thousand and four. 132 00:07:57.959 --> 00:08:01.480 About a year after that, I got an email from Mark. 133 00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:03.279 You know, I'd been approached by a lot of people. 134 00:08:03.560 --> 00:08:06.199 I've written a few books since then on the mafia, 135 00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:10.319 and I get approached by people fairly regularly about writing stories. 136 00:08:10.399 --> 00:08:12.600 And you know, hey, I was involved in this, this, 137 00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:16.600 and this. When Mark contacted me, I thought he had 138 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:20.279 a really interesting take on it. Number one, Mark's only 139 00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:22.120 a couple of years older than me, you know, so 140 00:08:22.199 --> 00:08:25.319 he's pretty young. So that was one thing. You know, 141 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:26.879 here's someone I can relate to. This is not some 142 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:29.879 guy in his eighties that's calling stuff that happened the 143 00:08:29.959 --> 00:08:33.639 way back when. But you know, for all the exciting 144 00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:36.519 stuff that had been going on in Boston, there really 145 00:08:36.679 --> 00:08:40.480 hadn't been a lot of a lot of the books 146 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:44.480 dealing with Boston organized crime dealt with Whitey Balger exclusively, 147 00:08:44.519 --> 00:08:46.720 and there was so much else going on that just 148 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:49.600 wasn't told. And here's a guy who had a really 149 00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:53.720 good kind of you know, we were all outside looking in, 150 00:08:53.799 --> 00:08:55.679 but he was inside looking in, and he had a 151 00:08:55.720 --> 00:08:58.600 really good perspective on it, and it was just a 152 00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:02.559 really good And the one other thing I liked about 153 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:05.759 is Mark doesn't pull any punches in dealing with what 154 00:09:05.799 --> 00:09:09.279 he did. It's not like, you know, woe is me 155 00:09:09.399 --> 00:09:12.600 I was in this life. You know, he's pretty frank 156 00:09:12.679 --> 00:09:15.360 about his involvement and what he did. And you know, 157 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:18.080 that's kind of a refreshing change of pace from a 158 00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:19.919 lot of these mob tell alls that you read. 159 00:09:21.879 --> 00:09:26.639 Okay, now, Mark, you kind of skipped ahead a little 160 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:30.320 bit in the book for anybody sort of listening in 161 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:33.440 our audience. So I'm going to just ask you to 162 00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:37.679 take us back to how the heck you became involved 163 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:43.200 in organized crime, Why organized crime seem attractive to you? Obviously, 164 00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:45.720 most people in our audience are going to be saying, well, 165 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:48.000 you know, how did you do this? How were you 166 00:09:48.039 --> 00:09:50.840 influenced to become a gangster, Why would you want to 167 00:09:50.879 --> 00:09:54.440 become a gangster? And you know what kind of environment 168 00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:57.200 did you grow up that this was an option for you? 169 00:09:57.240 --> 00:09:58.600 So tell us a little bit about that. 170 00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:02.200 Take us back, well back in those days. You know, 171 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:06.480 I was uh, I was an impressionable kid, and UH 172 00:10:06.679 --> 00:10:09.600 I had grown up in the Great Boston area, in 173 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:13.399 Medford and Somerville, and uh, even as a teenager, I 174 00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:15.919 had always seen these guys and uh, you know, I 175 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:18.320 was no different than most kids. I mean I was Uh. 176 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:21.320 I was running around with the street tofts, and I 177 00:10:21.440 --> 00:10:24.559 was uh I was looking at these guys as maybe, 178 00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:27.519 uh you know, guys who got respect, guys who got 179 00:10:27.519 --> 00:10:30.919 things done, Guys that uh were somebody's in our neighborhood. 180 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:33.840 And uh when I was in high school, I was 181 00:10:33.879 --> 00:10:35.960 pulling off some petty crimes and I was making some 182 00:10:36.039 --> 00:10:38.759 decent money. And uh I went to college for a 183 00:10:38.840 --> 00:10:41.440 year after that. But uh, I was living in the 184 00:10:41.559 --> 00:10:46.039 uh winter Hill neighborhood of uh of Massachusetts, and uh 185 00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:49.519 that's actually in some of the Massachusetts and uh when 186 00:10:49.559 --> 00:10:53.480 I was living there, I began meeting some very very 187 00:10:53.519 --> 00:10:57.799 high ranking Winter Hill gangsters, and uh, I actually began 188 00:10:57.879 --> 00:11:00.120 to get noticed by some of the senior members of 189 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:02.519 the gang, some of the guys that have been around 190 00:11:02.519 --> 00:11:04.919 a long time, and uh, some guys that I really 191 00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:07.399 looked up to. So I was kind of torn between 192 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:09.679 do I stay in school or do I do I 193 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:13.639 make this transition into uh this life because at that age, 194 00:11:13.639 --> 00:11:16.120 you're not really thinking about your future. You're saying, wow, 195 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:18.919 you know this, this looks like it might be uh 196 00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:22.639 you know, it's it's it's it's instantly gratifying, you know, 197 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:25.519 at least that's how I thought. But uh, I began 198 00:11:25.559 --> 00:11:29.519 as a driver for the Uh the guy that I'm 199 00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:31.720 speaking of, one of the old time members of the gang, 200 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:34.120 and he took me under his wing, and he just 201 00:11:34.159 --> 00:11:37.039 took a liking to me, and uh, excuse me. We 202 00:11:37.159 --> 00:11:40.200 had like a grandfather grandson type of relationship. He just 203 00:11:40.720 --> 00:11:42.440 a lot of these older guys, a lot of the 204 00:11:42.440 --> 00:11:44.639 guys that have been around a long time, what they 205 00:11:44.759 --> 00:11:47.320 like to do is they like to excuse me again. Uh, 206 00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:50.120 they like to mentor the younger guys that they see. 207 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:52.480 I mean, they're not gonna pict just any random guy 208 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:55.919 off the street. But they saw something in me that 209 00:11:56.039 --> 00:11:58.399 they they thought maybe that they could groom, They could 210 00:11:58.440 --> 00:12:00.600 like a piece of clay that they could mold. And 211 00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:04.320 I don't know if they manipulated me or I was 212 00:12:04.360 --> 00:12:09.240 a willing participant, but I eventually began driving and collecting 213 00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:12.639 some shylock money from some of their operations. Could they 214 00:12:12.679 --> 00:12:15.720 started introducing me around town to some real heavy hitters. 215 00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:18.480 And I was a young kid and I was awe struck. 216 00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:21.159 I was like, you know, this is this list. Looks 217 00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:24.559 like it could be really something good. So at that point, 218 00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:26.519 there was no more going back to the school. My 219 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:29.919 school was going to be on the streets. And at 220 00:12:29.919 --> 00:12:32.799 that point it started to grow. I mean I became 221 00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:35.639 their protege. I became the guy that they began grooming, 222 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:39.200 that they began relying on. I mean, I was nineteen 223 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:42.120 twenty years old and I'm going out collecting envelopes for 224 00:12:42.200 --> 00:12:44.960 guys that are notorious in the Boston on the world, 225 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:49.919 I mean legends. And you know, I played the game. 226 00:12:49.960 --> 00:12:52.159 I enjoyed it, and I began to grow. 227 00:12:53.320 --> 00:12:56.080 Now you're talking about and you mentioned it is prior, 228 00:12:56.200 --> 00:12:59.480 you know, predominantly in the book about the distinction between 229 00:12:59.840 --> 00:13:03.000 went on here. The renegade faction you talked about and 230 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:05.240 alluded to. We'll talk about that in a little bit, 231 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:09.480 but this is Lacusinostra. These are Italians, and for anybody 232 00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:13.320 that doesn't know about this, it's at least legend, has 233 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:16.279 it anyway that the Italians want to pick Italians so 234 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:17.879 that they can trace them all the way back to 235 00:13:17.919 --> 00:13:21.159 the old country to make sure that the guy's good. 236 00:13:21.879 --> 00:13:24.759 What was your family like, what was your parents and 237 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:27.519 your family like that you were in this kind of 238 00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:31.320 neighborhood and did that have any influence on you getting 239 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:34.559 involved in organized crime? Your family itself, in your background, 240 00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:35.960 your environment that you grew up in. 241 00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:39.960 Yeah, absolutely. I mean I have a Jewish last name, 242 00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:43.720 but I'm actually half Sicilian and that's that comes from 243 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:47.360 my mother's side and my mother's father, My grandfather was 244 00:13:48.080 --> 00:13:53.960 he was actually an Italian gangster, but his brother, my uncle, 245 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:57.039 was an Irish gangster, so it was kind of a mix. 246 00:13:57.960 --> 00:14:01.639 But on my father's side it was Irish, so it's 247 00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:04.360 kind of like a sportensborg of uh. You know, in 248 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:06.840 my immediate family, I had all these ties to the 249 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:10.960 to the organized crime and uh it was kind of crazy. 250 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:14.600 But yeah, you're right about the Italian thing, absolutely, but uh, 251 00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:18.480 in Boston. I don't know if you, uh your listeners 252 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:22.120 are familiar with this, but uh, in Boston it was 253 00:14:22.159 --> 00:14:25.440 actually more like an Irish thing because of you know, 254 00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:28.279 guys like Whitey Belser and guys like Cowie went there 255 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:31.559 and Joe McDonald and those guys. But yeah, they they 256 00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:36.679 they were part of cost and Austra to a point, 257 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:39.840 you know, but uh, they they held their own and 258 00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:43.440 it's it's a very it's a very unique situation in uh, 259 00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:46.919 in the Boston area. So that's uh, those are kind 260 00:14:46.919 --> 00:14:48.480 of like my family roots. 261 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:52.679 And you talked about patriarcha to being part of the 262 00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:55.320 Coles and Austra. Well, let's fully explain that he had 263 00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:57.399 enough respect that when he went to New York he 264 00:14:57.480 --> 00:14:59.759 could he had some influence he had he sat down 265 00:14:59.799 --> 00:15:01.480 with the these people, So he sat down with the 266 00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:05.200 biggest mafia leaders in America or in the world. 267 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:08.679 Well, yeah, he actually, you know, there was a sixties 268 00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:12.519 Irish gang war that originally this was way before my 269 00:15:12.600 --> 00:15:16.720 time obviously, but Raymond patriarch at to end that war. 270 00:15:17.080 --> 00:15:20.000 He threw his support behind the Irish winter Hill Gang 271 00:15:20.519 --> 00:15:24.279 and that began. That was the beginning of a love 272 00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:27.600 hate relationship between the Italians and the Irish. But it 273 00:15:27.639 --> 00:15:31.000 was because of Raymond Patriarch and the power that he wielded, 274 00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:33.480 as you said, as you alluded to it, he held 275 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:38.080 a seat on the National Commission. He he was the 276 00:15:38.120 --> 00:15:42.240 CEO of the New England Mafia, and yeah he was. 277 00:15:42.279 --> 00:15:44.799 He he was the leader of cos and Austra. But 278 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:48.200 because he was backing up the Irish during their internal 279 00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:51.120 power struggle that they had in the sixties, they actually 280 00:15:51.240 --> 00:15:54.519 merged and he took a real liking to these Irish guys. 281 00:15:54.559 --> 00:15:58.360 And you combine the two together and you get a 282 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:01.240 very strong, uh, a very strong army. 283 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:07.559 Bell Scott, what was the what was your the research 284 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:11.200 that that was entailed in writing this book? How did 285 00:16:11.240 --> 00:16:15.879 you go about getting this information from Mark? Mark? Did 286 00:16:16.039 --> 00:16:17.840 did you use a recorder? Did you write stuff down? 287 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:20.480 Do you guys have conversations you had said you'd already 288 00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:23.440 done a fair amount of research. 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One of the things was that Mark 303 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:06.599 had already written down a lot of just notes and 304 00:17:06.920 --> 00:17:10.839 ideas and memoirs, if you will, kind of unstructured, and 305 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:13.119 he sent that to me, and I would help him 306 00:17:13.160 --> 00:17:16.839 formulate the story, getting his side of it, and then 307 00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:19.519 I'd go back and check it and you know, fill 308 00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:22.400 in some gaps with the official record, if you will, 309 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:30.119 law enforcement reports, congressional hearings, newspaper articles, magazine articles, talk 310 00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:34.279 to some people, mob historians and other authors and other sources. 311 00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:36.720 And then I had actually gone up to Boston and 312 00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:39.000 visited with Mark, and you know, he drove me around 313 00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:40.559 some of the neighborhoods so I can get a feel 314 00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:45.279 for that area as well, and then recorded some conversations 315 00:17:45.319 --> 00:17:48.119 with him, and so it was kind of like a 316 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:50.960 little mix and match of a few different styles. But 317 00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:55.400 Mark had a lot of really good stuff written down 318 00:17:55.480 --> 00:17:58.599 that that he had produced over the years and keeping 319 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:01.920 track of this great story because it's it is a 320 00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:05.279 little complex. So you know, what what we want to 321 00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:08.000 do is really just make sure we got the narrative straight, 322 00:18:08.119 --> 00:18:10.440 but you don't want to fudge the facts. So just 323 00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:14.160 and I think it comes off the way we did it, 324 00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:18.480 and really in a chronological fashion. You really get to 325 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:22.119 see all the manipulations and the switching sides and all 326 00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:25.160 the craziness that was going on. And you know, Mark 327 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:27.640 really did a good idea, a good job I should say, 328 00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:29.240 of relaying that. 329 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:32.920 Yeah. You know what I really think is really great too, 330 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:37.880 is that you know, everybody that that reads a mob book, 331 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:41.880 now organized crime book has been affected by Goodfellas and 332 00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:45.599 sopranos and of course the Godfather, right, everybody. I mean, 333 00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:48.880 there's just no one on earth that hasn't. So you know, 334 00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:53.000 you still you get sort of those visuals because it's 335 00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:56.519 still otherworldly to most people. It really isn't normal or 336 00:18:56.599 --> 00:19:00.480 regular or even comprehensible, you know. So, But what's really 337 00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:04.680 interesting is that because Mark has this inside access, I've 338 00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:08.359 never read a book like this that has the intimate details. 339 00:19:08.359 --> 00:19:11.920 And we'll talk about that as well. Now, Mark, what's 340 00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:14.880 interesting in this book. I've heard, you know, you talk 341 00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:18.640 about to the betrayal that there's no loyalty. The way 342 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:21.599 these guys get to each other bumping them off is 343 00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:24.559 basically their best friend, you know, the guy that they 344 00:19:24.559 --> 00:19:26.680 can hang out with him. And you said, listen, you 345 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:29.039 learned early on that just because the guy hangs out 346 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:32.240 with you doesn't mean he's your friend. But what I 347 00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:36.880 was talking about to the audience was the intimate details 348 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:41.880 of the betrayal in terms of relationships, and that's what 349 00:19:42.200 --> 00:19:45.519 runs a theme through this book as well, which just says, 350 00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:48.799 adds more humanity to this thing. Now, tell us just 351 00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:51.000 a little bit, and again we might be jumping up 352 00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:53.920 a little bit, but tell us about you know, this 353 00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:57.319 very very important figure in your life, Maria, and tell 354 00:19:57.400 --> 00:19:59.799 us who Maria is, how you meet her, who she 355 00:19:59.920 --> 00:20:03.440 is is, And just introduced who Maria is pleased, and 356 00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:06.200 when and how you came about to meet her. 357 00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:10.880 Well, one of the very first people that I started 358 00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:15.359 out with in my own crew was a guy named 359 00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:19.839 Bobby Renew And Bobby was a few years older than me, 360 00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:24.279 and he was, like I said, he was. You know, 361 00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:26.680 you made a point about friends in the mob. I 362 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:29.319 mean we palaled around every day and we would, you know, 363 00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:32.039 considered best friends or whatever. But in the mob you 364 00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:35.000 really have associates. But Maria was actually be on again, 365 00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:41.559 off again girlfriend of him. And when he went to prison. Uh, 366 00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:44.119 he went to prison when the war really kicked off, 367 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:46.880 and I was kind of left on the street to 368 00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:52.079 fend for myself. And uh, as he went away, Maria 369 00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:55.640 and I started to get into contact because I felt 370 00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:58.359 as though that maybe Bobby was trying to use her 371 00:20:58.519 --> 00:21:01.359 to see if to see if I might make an 372 00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:04.400 advance on her, to see because I thought that maybe 373 00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:06.160 she might be a spy for him. I thought that 374 00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:09.799 you know, when you're in prison and you know your 375 00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:11.880 friend or your guy, the guy that you earn with 376 00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:14.599 he's on the street, I mean you're thinking all kinds 377 00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:16.400 of crazy things. I mean, you want to get as 378 00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:18.640 many people as close to him as you can. And 379 00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:23.519 I had the reputation for I don't know, sleeping around 380 00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:28.079 with some of the enemy wise guy's girlfriends, and the 381 00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:29.920 later it got him too a sentence. He was serving 382 00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:34.160 a five to seven year prison term. And he asked me, 383 00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:37.119 he said, of all the people to ask, he says, 384 00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:39.839 you know, can you keep an eye on Maria? And 385 00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:43.079 I right, there was a red flag because I said, 386 00:21:43.079 --> 00:21:45.400 of all the people, you're gonna ask me to keep 387 00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:47.640 an eye on your girlfriend? I mean, you know, my reputation, 388 00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:49.839 So I kind of thought it was he wanted to 389 00:21:49.880 --> 00:21:53.920 get her to see to see if I would betray him, 390 00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:56.799 because in my mind I felt as though he had 391 00:21:56.839 --> 00:21:59.039 already started to betray me. This is what you were 392 00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:01.400 speaking of too, with the with the friendship, your best 393 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:04.240 friends and shifting alliances and all that stuff. Is that 394 00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:06.799 at that point in our relationship when I met Maria, 395 00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:11.319 him and I we just weren't trusting each other because 396 00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:13.480 I felt as though he was on one side of 397 00:22:13.480 --> 00:22:15.359 the war and he felt as though maybe I was 398 00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:17.759 on the other. So he figured maybe with the girl 399 00:22:17.799 --> 00:22:21.200 he could find out exactly where I was. And that's 400 00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:21.880 how that became. 401 00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:25.359