Speaker 1: What is upfellows? That goes to im Dana Valley.
Speaker 2: Coming at you with another twenty four twenty twenty five NBA.
Speaker 1: Season look ahead.
Speaker 2: We're onto the Phoenix Suns, which means I have the
distinct pleasure to be joined by the fellas from the
Timeline podcast, Sam Cooper and at Mike Vhill. I don't
know why I said at Mike Vhill, but you can
follow Mike Vhill on Twitter at.
Speaker 1: Protected pick spelled exactly as it sounds.
Speaker 2: Follow Sam on Twitter at s Cooper Hoops, also spelled
exactly as it sounds, and the links will be in
the podcast and YouTube description where you can find their
podcast their Twitter handles. The Twitter handles will also be
up on screen for anyone watching on YouTube and in
a second.
Speaker 1: They're great.
Speaker 2: Can't recommend their podcast enough, and I do recommend it
a ton on this I love listening to those guys.
We get into all things Phoenix Suns very quickly. For
you're new around these parts, consider hitting the subs scribe button.
We're not covering Phoenix Suns all the time, but we
do cover the entire league. We do it exceptionally well.
We have a lot of fun. Stick with us throughout
the entire season. If you're just kind of choppering in
because you're interested in in Suns content, that's all I
have for you, though. So let's get to lots of
Phoenix Suns. Talk with the fellas from the world famous
Timeline podcast. Mike, Sam, welcome back. I think this is
the fourth year we're doing a Sons look ahead together,
So I'm excited that you guys continue to come back.
And now I have to win there. Ever, there's three
people on the podcast. I have to remember to kind
of how to like actually host, So I'm gonna throw
it to Sam.
Speaker 1: How are you doing?
Speaker 3: Hello? Dan? I appreciate that you continue to invite us back.
This is one of my favorite things we do every year.
If it's year number four, then apparently it's been downhill
for the Phoenix Suns every time we do this, because
I think it means we started probably after the finals
run and.
Speaker 1: That was four years ago. No, it wasn't.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was, man, it was well more than three.
It was three years ago. It was three years ago.
But this is the fourth season since then. Because it
was year after the finals, are on lost in the
second round to Dallas. Year after that, lost in the
second round to Denver, last year lost in the first
round of Minnesota, and now this is season number four.
Since then here we go.
Speaker 1: Geez, what is time? Mike? How are you doing? Speaking
of what is time?
Speaker 4: Uh, I'm doing well. I've said it before. It doesn't
really feel like the season is about to start until
we do this podcast. So thank you for inviting us
on again.
Speaker 2: Oh that's that always. I've heard you say it before
and I never tire of it.
Speaker 1: So thank you.
Speaker 2: Let's get into this team. I have more a lot
more reflective questions I think on them than I have
a lot of other teams. So Mike, based off kind
of how last season unfolded, was it the right call
to get rid of Frank Vogel and irregardless of that, Like,
was this more of a not meshing with player situation
or was there something to you that he just critically
did wrong when it came to managing the team on
the court.
Speaker 4: So the way that the Suns were constructed last year,
you could they had the thirteenth best defense in the
NBA last year, a team that was pretty small, team
that struggled defensively at the beginning of the season, found
a way to put it together to have the thirteenth
best defense, which if you talk to us at the
beginning of the season, I would have said that that
is an acceptable number as long as the offense is
like a top three, top five offense in the NBA.
But surprisingly, the offense was a big problem for the Suns,
a team that has potentially three offensive superstars, if you
want to call them that. So to me, the fact
that they couldn't figure out how to have a competent
offense for the entire season, not to mention one that
was good enough to justify them being considered contenders, that
to me was enough. But if you also factor in
the fact that it was pretty clear that the players
and Frank did not get along, and there was an
immediate hit piece the moment they were eliminated from the
playoffs written by Sean Scherania that had quotes from players
in that hit piece, I would say it's pretty clear
that something was not working there. And the more I
dig into the roles that these guys, these guys played
last year. We've talked about it a little bit in
our internal development series that we had, the more I
think it was justified to fire Frank Vogel, I don't
think he was doing a good job offensively.
Speaker 3: Anything to add to that, Tim, Well, No, I agree
with everything Mike saying it's unfortunate that we've had to
go through this process two years in a row. I
guess that's all it is. And yeah, I wouldn't say
that I have anything particularly insightful to add there. Budenholzer
is going to bring a different brand of basketball, at
least we hope stylistically there will be some changes. But
you never want to see a guy get fired, you know,
one year into his contract of I don't even remember
how many years the Suns originally gave vocal Do you remember, Mike?
Was it a four year deal? I think it was
five five.
Speaker 1: Year deal, Fewer than Monny Williams.
Speaker 3: Indeed, that is that is definitely true. Minny Williams was
killing it.
Speaker 1: Sam.
Speaker 2: Is there anything, Well, I guess one, what did you
think of the decision to go with Budenholzer? But is
there anything stylistically specifically on the court you're either expecting
or hoping to see differently from this team under him?
Speaker 3: Yeah? The main thing is movement. I think that's what
we saw in some of the well you laugh, but well.
Speaker 2: I'm just laughing because having watched the Suns, especially like
during some of their you know, stretch run games.
Speaker 1: It's just like it's so simple.
Speaker 2: But it's like, yeah, like maybe get these guys moving,
that'd be great.
Speaker 3: Well yeah, I mean, I hate the fact that my
criticism can can be boiled down to something so simple,
But yeah, I look vocal Over performed to expectations on
the defensive ends. We have to give him credit. The
fact that a team starting Bradley Beale at kind of
de facto point guard and Yusuf Nurkic at center by
the second half of the season was a top ten
half court defense and the NBA. That's incredible. But you
guys need an offense too. It's just not as easy
as stick Kevin Durant in the post, give it to
him with twenty seconds on the shot clock, and you know,
let him do his.
Speaker 4: Little heavy turn it over.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, if definitely, it became here comes the double,
here comes the turnover. Everything was just was just far
too easy to anticipate for opposing defenses. So they need
more of a plan. They need more compound movement, in
which Devin Booker and Kevin Durant and Bradley Beal are
playing off of each other in the same sets. Kevin
Durant being used ideally as a screener, you know, coming
on ball screens, off ball screens, but also moving off
of screens himself. I get it. It's difficult because you're
trying to preserve his body, and so there is a
certain perspective of last year. Kevin Durant played seventy five games.
You know, they didn't want to play him a ton
at the five because they're concerned about, you know, his body.
They didn't want to use him as a screener for
Devin Booker because again, it's this physical part of the game.
I get it. But if you really want to maximize
what this team is capable of doing, especially in the playoffs,
you need a little bit more of really finding ways
for these guys to work together, because they improve the depth.
We're going to talk about that, but the depth is
only going to take you so far. It's how you
optimize Devin Booker and Kevin Durant's that's how this team
reaches its ceiling.
Speaker 4: Yeah, in some ways, they took a team that has
three offensive superstars treated two of them, like PJ Tucker
on offense for half of the place just standing there
doing nothing.
Speaker 2: I mean, I would argue, aside from doing nothing, yes,
that's a way to conserve energy, but having Kevin Durant
come off of screens will actually save him energy compared
to how you were using him.
Speaker 1: On the ball.
Speaker 2: Yeah last year too, So I'll be interesting if they
do that. But Mike, and I'll want answers from both
of you, assuming they're different here. But aside from Budenholzer
and whatever he's going to implement, what is the biggest
storyline for this team that you're going to be monitoring
entering next season or throughout next season.
Speaker 4: I mean, it has to be the addition of multiple
point guards to this team, because this was a team
that I think it was justifiable to not have to
not start a point guard if you start with two
guards in Bradley Beal and Devin Booker, and the idea
being that you can have both of these guys, along
with Kevin Durant, handling the ball enough and creating enough
for others to sort of be okay without one. But
the fact that they pulled off an offseason where they
added I think competent point guards at the starting and
backup position. I think changes things for how this team
can play offensively and even maybe has an impact defensively,
if not just because of the ability to not turn
it over constantly, because that's really what was the biggest problem,
but maybe to have other players out there that are
good at getting in the passing leans and actually turning
the other team over a little bit.
Speaker 2: Sam, how much of an impact do you see like
Tias Jones having on this offense, even just aside from Okay,
we know the assist to turnover ratios generational, but like,
is there like another area or just like is it
general organization? Like what type of impact you envision him
having on a team that is so loaded with again
three guys who in theory can do a bunch of
stuff on the ball.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it really is just general organization, because let's be
honest in terms of both who Tias and Monte are.
They have this generational skill and their other skills are
just average. These guys are average and everything else. Right, Tias,
he comes with a little bit of a floater game
that's pretty good. Monte has a mid range game as well.
I'll be curious to see how much they're sort of
pushing him to just fire away from threes when he
comes off the bench and maybe get away from some
of the stuff that he's done in the past. But
we need them for their point guard skills, because again,
this was the ninth best offense in the NBA last year,
and not because they shot the ball poorly from any
particular spot on the floor. They had lots of loads
of good three point shooters. Just look at the season
that Grace and Allen had being the best three point
shooter in the NBA at a certain volume. They had
terrific mid range shooters, terrific finishers at the rim, with
the exception of use of Nurkic, who's the worst finisher
you've ever seen, and is given the most use of Nurkich,
who I would describe as the most frustrating net positive
player I think I've ever watched, is probably what he
was for the Suns last year. So yeah, we just
like ninth best offense one of the worst turnover teams
in the NBA. If you just add Tie and Monte
and turn them into a top ten team in terms
of taking care of the ball, how many points right there.
If we consider it like a math formula, how many
points can you ask your offensive rating? Two?
Speaker 4: Three, four?
Speaker 3: Like, it feels like there's a real pathway there for
them to get into the top five as an offensive team,
which is what they need to be if they want
to hit their ceiling. Now what's it going to do
for their defense and their defensive versatility and their rebounding
and all these other things. You know, we can quibble
about that, but yeah, these guys are going to be
huge for the organization.
Speaker 2: I think what helps though, is that by not turning
the ball over and not giving you know, teams extra
opportunities or opportunities in transition. I think they were bottom
ten defensively after committing a turnover, and so that could
help your defense by extension. But my question to you, Mike,
what does this do by having Tias Jones in there?
And we're looking at the core lineups of it all
where you have bial and Booker and Kevin Durant. Those
are you could stretch it if you want to with
the definition of wing and use Devin Booker and Kevin Durant.
We're talking about four non wings who could be a
part of their core lineup without getting to a big
man first, like, what does does it have a sort
of trickle down effect with one Maybe there's a concern
from you guys about what their core lineups look like.
Does it portend some type of unique or heavy staggering.
Could we see one of those guys and probably Tias,
or could we see like a Bradley Beal maybe not
on the floor during certain crunch times, Like what is
just the trickle down effect of having so many important
non wings on this team?
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting. The crunch time thing is is a
conversation that we just had recently on the podcast in
that you could see a scenario where Tias doesn't play
in the last few minutes of a game, right, and
then you have the big three on there, maybe with
Grayson and Nurkic or some version of somebody off the bench.
Maybe it's Royce O'Neil even for a little extra defense,
or maybe Bull Bull, who knows Sam's favorite player. We'll
get there, coming in and playing with size. But they
were and repeated this a lot anytime the Sun's played
on ESPN or T and T. They were the worst
team plus minus wise in the last five minutes of
close games in the entire NBA last season, and a
big part of that was due to turnovers. It's hard
to say that they brought a point guard that doesn't
turn it over to this team and they're going to
sit him right when the game is very important. So
little too sorry, but like, no, absolutely, it's it's it's
just true. So so it does have somewhat of a
trickle down effect. We even had the conversation of would
this team be better? And look, don't get me wrong,
it's the middle of the summer, so we needed to
come up with podcast topics. But we did have the
conversation on our podcast of does Bradley Beal need to
come off the bench? Now, there's no way that that's
going to happen, there's no way, but just coming up
with ideas or thoughts on how this could potentially work.
That is something that has to pop in your head
at some point in thinking about this team, because in
some ways it's Tias Jones and you have two shooting
guards and then you have Kevin Durant who plays like
a seven foot shooting guard. So it's like three shooting
guards and a big on the floor. And I think
that's gonna it's gonna be troubling. It's hard to picture
a team that's this small or plays this way being
a contender. I mean not to jump to any future
topic here, but it's hard to picture that.
Speaker 3: If egos and contract considerations and all that didn't exist,
and we could just arrange this like a two K rotation.
It certainly feels like Tyas Jones and maybe Grace and
Allen in the back court, and then you've got Booker
and Katie and Nurkic fits together as a bunch of
puzzle pieces who play the right roles, and then you
use Bradley Beal as he gets his thirty minutes per game,
but it's off the benches of micro graves score and
doesn't necessarily have to close games. Again, is that gonna happen? No,
we're just posing that if all of this other stuff
didn't exist, if Botenholzer didn't have to consider feelings. Doesn't
it feel like Dan and you can disagree, but doesn't
it feel like maybe that would just fit a little
bit better.
Speaker 2: No, it'd absolutely fit better if if there wasn't any
like politicism involved here, like with what Mike Bunholder has
to do. I think that that's completely logical that you
would think that that's their best setup and if it's not,
or if they feel beholdings, so we have to play
all three of our stars, our highest paid players, and
then we want tie us out there. Could they find
themselves like relying more than you know? I think Mike
or well both you just mentioned they don't want to
lean on Kevin Durant or no big lineups let's call them.
But do you become more dependent on those lineups because
you have to figure a way to fit all of
those guys into the fold. While then also like we
we want like someone who's considered sort of a wing
checker out there.
Speaker 4: And you know what it does more than anything else,
it makes the trade deadline. And Grayson Allen really interesting
for this team because Grayson Allen I love him, and
he was really good on the Suns last year. And
they know there's a lot of negative publicity out there
for Grayson Allen and some of it deserved, but he
was really great on the Suns last year. But he
also plays the same position as Devin Booker and Bradley
Beal and they need some sort of positional versatility on
this team signed a contract. He can't be traded for
another few weeks, but he can be traded throughout the season,
and if the Suns can find a trade that makes
sense where they can add real wings depth to this team,
or even someone worthy of starting as a wing player,
it'd be hard to turn that down if it makes
sense for this team this year. It has to make
sense this year.
Speaker 3: They do also have just to remind people because I
know you know this stand but maybe others don't. They
have an open roster spot now right, so it feels
like they're going into the season. I think the likelihood
that they make a trade in the next few weeks
is very unlikely. But going into the season, there's a
reason that the Suns have an open roster spot. They're
thinking about February already and maybe some of the some
of the moves that they could make.
Speaker 2: What stood out the most to you about Grayson Allen
season last year?
Speaker 1: Sam?
Speaker 2: I know what people have extolled the shooting, but was
there just like, was it the accuracy on that I've
said it a few times now that his defensive responsibility
to me was outsized and he held up, in my opinion,
very well rel to that responsibility. So that's the thing
that I think stuck out to me the most last year.
Speaker 3: So look, ultimately it is My answer is the shooting
only because I just had to look at his player page.
He literally shot forty six percent on like six attempts
a game. That is a cut above what he's done
in his career, right, I just you don't expect a
player to come in and give that, and even this year,
if he regresses back to forty, that's fine. Like you
expect a guy to shoot forty, you don't expect a
guy to shoot forty six on high volume. Also, like
easily pulling up into threes. You know, we've talked a
lot about how Grayson has a bit of a confidence issue,
and he shot like fifty percent on pull up threes.
If he would just take that shot one or two
more times per game, potentially there's a lot of extra
damage that he could do coming from a bench roll.
But to agree with you as well, defensive versatility was better.
Playmaking was great. I think he had an insists turnover
ratio of over two and really took on some more
playmaking responsibilities because of the fact that the point guard
position for the Suns. Last year was such a disaster
and there wasn't any traditional point guard on the entire roster.
The best they got for backups was Eric Gordon playing
the point guard position and Jordan Goodwin, and neither of
those looks very good. So yeah, Grayson just all around.
If he was I know you could say this about
so many players, but like if he was just six
foot seven instead of foot four, he is an awesome
like such a clear thirty million dollar player in today's NBA. Unfortunately,
that's just not who he is. He's just gonna be
an undersized wing, but he's got crazy skills.
Speaker 2: Mike, what did we make of the Bradley Beal experience?
I felt like the transaction or his arrival was used
as a scapegoat for a lot of what was wrong
with Phoenix. I guess in some ways it could have been.
But he starts off the season injured. I thought he
at least tried to adapt, and like they had him
doing a bunch of different stuff when you look at
over the course of the year, but like, what have
you just made of his overarching fit? And like what
will you also be looking for more of or seeing
if if x changes leading into this year.
Speaker 4: When I dug into a lot of the stats and
started really thinking about the season as a whole, when
it came to Bradley Bial, that's when I really was
on the side of Okay, yeah, Frank Vogel probably did
need to go. I don't think that. I do think
that Bradley Bial made a lot of effort to change
what he was asked to do as a player, you know,
became more of a guy who was willing to shoot,
catch and shoot threes, but he was also asked to
be a point guard, and I don't think he was
very good at that. I think Bradley Beal gets a
lot of flack because, honestly, because they had a chance
to win one playoff game and he had some of
the most baffling turnovers at the end of that game
in a way that sort of ended the season for
the Suns. So a lot of Suns fans just look
back and just remember that ending as really bad. But
I honestly think he wasn't used very well offensively by
Frank Vogel last year, and now with multiple point guards
on the team, I think he could settle into a
more similar role to what he was doing previously when
he was more of an offensive superstar. It's not to
say that he's gonna average thirty again or anything like that,
but if you can be a little bit better than
he was last year, they kind of need that out
of him, and you know, less responsibility to get other
guys involved when that responsibility shifts to other players. I
think it's something that could really help him a lot.
He needs to be someone that's looking for a shot
a little bit more.
Speaker 2: Like do you think that Sam that there's gonna be
like a skeleton key that Mike Bundholzer can play to
unlock him? Or is it, like I know you said,
you don't necessarily want to see him as the point
guard is kind of staggering him away from those lineup
where we're talking about, Okay, there's Tius and there's KG
and there's Booker. Is there like, is there like a
secret sauce here that could help unlock Bradley Beal in
the larger context of this team.
Speaker 3: Well, the secret sauce might just be asking him to
take a bit of a back seat and chill out, dude, Like,
you know, we don't need you to initiate these plays
we're gonna put you in the same lineup as some
other really really talented guys, and we're gonna ask you
to attack the second side, you know, after the play
already breaks down a little bit and the defensive rotation
is coming and you can attack the open gaps. I think,
you know, in some ways, that's a context Thatt Bradley
Beal should be. It's it's not that much of a
transition for him. He should be used to to playing
like that, back to you know, some of his early
Washington days. You know, it's it might just be the
fact that his days being treated as a real superstar
are behind him, unfortunately, and you know, that's that's something
that hopefully he can make peace with. But I don't
think the expectations for Bradley Beal after the extraordinarily tragic
playoff series he had, I don't think those expectations are
really that high. I think the expectations are very high,
high on Kevin Durant because he's Kevin Durant and all
that his like legacy quote unquote means. And I think
the expectations are quite high on Devin Booker, who's kind
of asserted himself as like the image of the Phoenix
Suns or the franchise player or whatever. But Bradley Beal,
we're just asking We're just asking you to fit in
and not not fuck up too much, you know, like
fit out. It's not exactly it's it's not that common implicated.
We just want better than what we saw in the
Minnesota series. I will say I feel a lot of
sympathy for him because he's been asked to change who
he is a million times already and we're asking him
to do that again. But ultimately, the Suns need him
to be mostly a role player this year. He's absolutely
talented enough to do that. He just needs to stay healthy.
Speaker 2: I consider myself a pretty empathetic person. I do not
feel bad for Bradley Beale when he orchestrated his arrival here, Like,
you chose this situation, deal.
Speaker 4: With it, and the contract doesn't hurt right right. Yeah,
I'm making fifty million dollars. I think he'll be okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he might be a little underpaid, I guess, but
I feel like he'll figure it out.
Speaker 1: Sam, I'm gonna stick with you.
Speaker 2: What in the hell do we make of use of
Nurkic's first season with Phoenix to where I was incredibly
low on his arrival. And I will say that DeAndre
eight and for three quarters of the season proved me
wrong just by virtue of being deandreight and in Portland.
But use of Nurkic exceeded my expectations for what he
was doing in Phoenix defensively, like we always kind of
knew about the playmate, we knew about what the flaws were.
But what just like or your impressions of year one
of Usif.
Speaker 3: What a fascinating specimen to get to watch and analyze
use of Nurkic is. It's truly one of the more
interesting players in my seven year podcasting career that I've
gotten to watch for the Phoenix Suns, because objectively, if
you look at the data the Suns had I don't
have exactly in front of me, but it was like
a plus ten plus eleven net rating swing when Usif
Nurkic was on the floor. Part of that is because
Drew Eubanks is awful and thank god he's no longer
on the team, but also part of it was legitimately
because us Off Nurkic was holding his own as a defender,
and you know he felt really comfortable and dropped coverage obviously,
but a lot of vocal success was, you know, starting
to get him to creep up at the level of
the screen, hedge on some screens, use his big body
to stop the offense in its tracks. And again use
of Nurkic. Kevin Durant gets some credit to playing next
to him, but usif Nurkic was basically anchoring and above
average technically defense in the NBA, that's wild. That's not
what we expected him to do at all. The offense
is hard, man, The finishing is hard because like I
can't pull it up in front of me. But his
free throw percentage tanked because of a thumb injury halfway
through the season, and the numbers around the rim were
never good. He's not a lobb the.
Speaker 2: Three fifteenth percentile among big men if you care at
finishing around the rim last year, and that is not
the worst season that he's had. He has finished in
the fourth percentile before.
Speaker 3: Look, don't get me wrong, I love having a center
who can dribble, which for five years with DeAndre at
and we did not have like the ability to pass
to a guy in the short role and He's not
just automatically going to take the eighteen foot mid range
jumper every time like Aayton did. That was that's fantastic, Nirk.
Keep doing that. We need you to do that. Maybe
a little bit less this year with the introduction of
Tias and those other ball handlers, but we still need
it in general on the team right. But to not
be able to finish at the rim or shoot threes
makes it really hard to run a modern offense of
any sort at the NBA level. So here's what we've
seen from NRK so far this summer. I don't know
if either Mike or I trust it at all. It
looks like he's lost a lot of weight just from
the images, and it looks like he's shooting a lot
of threes and empty gyms and you know, getting him
up Mitch Robinson's style. Is any of it gonna, you know,
actually translate to you know, to the NBA floor, I'm
not sure, but obviously Bud has kind of transd He's
done this before with transforming the Milwaukee Bucks because of
brook Lopez being his anchor, and in theory, if use
of Nurkic could hit that brook Lopez stage of his
career and suddenly shoot thirty five percent on like six
attempts a game. That would completely change how I feel
about this team and about Nurkic and like how how
much longer he's gonna be able to stay in the NBA.
Do I believe that that's gonna happen. No, but it's
nice to dream.
Speaker 2: Do you think, Mike, that they're gonna have him be
even more aggressive on defense based off him kind of
trimming down, because that's not really what they Mike Bunolder
did with Brook Lopez.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I I sam thinks that they might. I think
that it's more likely that there he's in a drop
ninety five percent of the time. And I do think
that they could actually have a pretty good defense, you know,
if they if they do that, because it was pretty
okay last year. Just like I'll mention it again, like
really eliminating turnovers would have had a massive difference on
their defense last year because they turned it over a lot.
I think it was bottom seven in the NBA or
something like that by the end of the season, and
then they let the other team score. They had terrible
transition defense. So if you do the same thing as
last year, in the half court, eliminate a lot of
the turnovers. I think you could have potentially a top
ten defense on this team. So if Nurkic can, if
he does slim down and can get out there on
the perimeter a little bit more, I think it would
be pretty helpful. You know, this seems pretty bad at
rebounding though, so keeping him close to the rim it
doesn't hurt. He's actually a really great rebounder.
Speaker 3: And I'll just point out, like Nurkic last season was
listed at two ninety or something, right, So I'm not
talking he's not going to come in there being two
hundred and twenty five pounds. Yeah, but it looks like
it looks like maybe he's dropped fifteen or twenty pounds,
And any additional little bit of defensive versatility they could
squeak out of him would be great. In addition to offensively,
I mean, if the Suns can just find any way
to play five out, that modern five out, fast paced
basketball that doesn't overly rely on we need Kevin Durant
at the five, right, because obviously you could play Kevin
Durant at the five and some of their best overall
lineups and offensive lineups were doing that last year. You
just don't want to have to rely on that in
the regular season and wear out Kevin Durant. So if NRK,
if there's the skeleton key to unlocking NRK, then that
would be extraordinary. I just am not necessarily holding my breath.
Speaker 2: There's always something with each team where I might be
Galaxy bringing it, and I get caught up thinking too
much about what ends up being something stupid, And I
think this is one of those things that are stupid.
But Mike, I would normally default to they have Tias
Jones' use of Nurkis's life on offense is going to
get better. But because he's so bad at finishing at
the rim and he's not considered like this exceptional play finisher,
does Tias's Jones arrival complicate Yeah, his role on offense
at all more? And is it just as simple of like, well,
he's gonna need to finish it like at the rim
better or around.
Speaker 4: The basket better. And honestly, maybe he can finish at
the basket better with a real point guard that can
help set him up a little bit better than the
way the team was setting him up in the past.
But there was a lot of plays where Usuf Nurkic
was the point guard. I know it's kind of hard
to believe for people who don't watch a lot of
the suns, but he was literally dribbling it down the
floor and transition quite a bit and the play started
with use of Nurkic. That makes no sense to do.
Now they have two point guards. They have to give
it to those point guards in order to provide any
value because they're not I mean, they're okay at off
ball shooters, but their main value comes from handling the
ball and passing. So used off Nurkic having to play
more off the ball, it's going to be a kind
of fascinating experiment. It's hard to believe that adding a
point guard that this is exactly what they want at
the center position. I think they would probably prefer to
have someone who screens and rolls. He's not a pick
and roll type player. He's great at the pickpart. He's
one of the best screeners in the NBA, but once
he gets it at the rim, if there's any help
at the rim, there's no guarantee that he's gonna make it.
If there's no help at the rim, there's no guarantee
that he's gonna make it. I do think it complicates
his role a little bit. When Devin Booker, Kevin Durant,
and Bradley Beal have the ball and use of Nurkics
is screening for them, everything makes sense because he's the
guy that catches it in the middle of the floor
and he can make those extra passes to open guys
with Tys Jones, I don't know, is Kevin Durant gonna
screen for them every time? Are they gonna play Bull
Bowl a little bit more? I'm not really sure what
they're gonna end up doing. I'm really interested to see
how the offense looks with both of them on the floor.
Speaker 2: If I want to feel old, I'll note that Devin
Booker's entering year ten, which is mind helping to me?
Speaker 1: Sam, what did we make of his year last year?
Speaker 2: And why is he still a litmus test after all
this time?
Speaker 3: For you?
Speaker 2: No ball watchers on it like it wasn't even it's
going through the Olympics. It's even going through like whatever
the Suns were doing last season. I just we weren
a decade.
Speaker 1: Into guy's career. He shouldn't be like that's reserved for
the guys who were like in their first you know,
one to six seasons, whereas do you know.
Speaker 3: I think it's because Devin Booker is one of the
best NBA players at the moment, where his highlights are
just not that I mean, not that they're not fun
to watch. I obviously love watching Devin Booker highlights and
all the you know, Hooper stuff, but like, he's not
out there jacking up Steph Curry threes, and he's not
dunking like Anthony Edwards, and so I think for a
certain type of casual fan there's no way to get
it out there that Devin Booker really is that good,
except for maybe finally sitting their asses down and forcing
them to watch the Olympics and realizing that, oh, he
actually is that good.
Speaker 2: I Ken's confirm though, that that didn't work, because fifty
percent of the Bleacher we covered tm USA for Bleacher
Reports like streaming stuff, and my co host and I
spent about half of every single live session to thousands
of people trying to explain to them that no, if
you want to find minutes for Jason Tatum, it's not
Devin Booker who needs to sit down.
Speaker 1: I don't even know if watching him works for people.
Speaker 3: Sometimes I hope. I mean, look, a lot of those
are just you know, crazy Celtics fans, but I hope
some people were converted. I know, especially from the media.
I've seen probably more positive coverage around Book coming out
of that Olympic run than I've ever seen. And again,
it's crazy a decade his career has spanned a decade.
Now he's entering his tenth season. But just as for
what he was last year, you know, I think he's
a superstar at the apex of his career who offensively
has figured out basically everything, and the only hole is
that his defense dropped off right, And Mike and I
have talked about a couple things with relation to that. One.
Was it too much offensive responsibility? Is this another case
of Tyas and Monte coming in? You know, we're hoping
that Book is able to have the additional energy to
take on some more challenging defensive assignments this year and
that you know, he'll have a bounce back year on
the defensive end, because we know he can, you know,
be challenged to take on difficult assignments and likes to
play defense.
Speaker 4: But Olympics.
Speaker 3: He's different playoff book It wasn't. It wasn't always there
in the regular season last year in the way I've
come to expect it from him recently in his career.
And then the other thing with him is just staying healthy,
particularly with his lower body. You know. Book Luckily at
this point knock on Wood in his career has not
had any like, uh, career altering injuries, like you know,
like season long injuries. But you know, he'll he'll strain
a calf here, and a hamstring there and and ankle there,
and that's stuff that adds up over time. And just
in his ability to you know, like consistently log thirty
five thirty six minutes and then into the forties during
a playoff runt. But yeah, his skill set is he's
as smart as he's ever been or the smartest he's
ever been in his NBA career.
Speaker 2: Mike, do he maybe potentially see like a return to
Devin Booker's roots or just like where they can get him.
I mean we already mentioned, you already mentioned movement excuse
me with regards to Mike Budenholzer. But now that you
have Tius Jones and is there any interesting ways you
envision them using the two together, because I think what
I think what flies out of the radar about Tis
and especially if we're gonna measure relative to when book
played with CP three, like when Tyas Schones gets in
the like he will get off the ball a lot quicker,
whether he's just catching it or whether he's like starting
out the possession dribbling, And so I think there's a
lot of opportunities there with the way that Devin Booker
himself is able to move off the ball or attack
quickly off the catch, that those two could end up
being just more deadly together than I think he has
really been talked about.
Speaker 4: I think it's so fascinating to ask for more of
Devin book Craft. He had a twenty seven and seven
season as far as points and assists, but I would
like him to shoot more. And I think there's a
possibility that having a point guard could help focus his
role into being more of a scorer. But if you
look at his career, it's so fascinating, Like starting in
let's see his third year when he was twenty one
years old, he averaged twenty five points a game than
twenty six and twenty six, then twenty five, then twenty six,
then twenty seven, than twenty seven. He's basically done the
same thing scoring wise for seven seasons in a row,
and I kind of feel like that's just it's like
it's hard to expect that to change. You know, maybe
there's a year where he averages twenty nine or something
like that. Maybe this is the year when he has
the kind of players around him to help clarify that
role a little bit, But I don't really think so.
It's just more for him, And it is when you
talk about the litmus test of ball know where for him,
you look at the stats and he looks like he's
been the same player that entire time. But every year
there's just little things in his game that he's gotten
better at, and for him, it's just to continue getting
better at those little things at every point of his career.
You know, you watch the Olympics and it's fascinating to
see how involved Lebron James and Steph Curry particularly were
on that team. And some people, this is another litmus
test who don't know ball, would complain about that, saying
they're old. Let's move on, Let's put some of the
younger guys in there. But what you watch when you
see them is guys who have faced every single defense
you can throw at them, and they have an answer
to all of those defenses in order to score. And
those are the things that I think we need to
get to. That's the point that I would like Devin
Booker to get to, where he just understands He's played
long enough in the NBA. He understands every defense that's
going to be thrown at the team, and has the
trust and understands where his teammates are going to be,
has the trust of those teammates to make the right
play in each of those scenarios. And that's what I'm
looking forward to seeing.
Speaker 2: I would do nasty things for him to set a
career high in three point attempts, though I know that's
just like this won't happen.
Speaker 4: Though I would like.
Speaker 3: Something we didn't talk about though earlier, interestingly enough, when
we talked about Bud, it's like, can he do the
thing that we've been asking for for five years and
we know is so important to his system and finally
get the Phoenix suns of all teams to shoot a
reasonable number threes Because we've been asking for so long,
but also multiple code Yeah, across multiple coaches. It was
a problem when they had Ricky Rubio as a point guard.
It was a problem when they had Chris Paul as
a point guard, and now it's a problem with Bradley
Beal Devin Booker sharing point guard duties. The guys just
don't the star players, that is, the guys who take
the majority of shots on this team just do not
play a modern enough style of basketball. And Bud's gonna
come in there and he's gonna be in their ear.
Is it gonna work? I don't know, Like, does Grace
and Allen have to shoot twelve threes a game in
order to get them up to a reasonable average. Because
say what you will about Eric Gordon too, I don't
think Eric Gordon had a great season for the Suns
last year. But in losing Eric Gordon, that's a decent
amount of three point volume that they lost that you
can't just necessarily replace with anybody. So they need all
of the role players. This is more incentive for Nurk
to learn how to do it. They need everyone to
chip in and play their part. And of course, with
Kevin Durant, Devin Booker, and to an extent, Bradley Beal.
The midrange game is who they are. They're so good.
You can't take it all away from them. But if
all those guys would just take one more a game,
just a little bit, that's all you really need, because
there's a math game that the Suns have been consistently
losing for years now with not taking enough of those attempts.
Speaker 2: I don't know if this is a hot take, but
actually one of my predictions for them is that they're
going to be in the top ten of three point
attempt right for like the first time in almost a
decade because because of what Mike Bundholzer likes to do
on offense, where it's predicated a lot of times around
rim pressure, the Suns just don't have that organically in
their half court offense. And like the easier thing is
when you look at their personnel is the threes need
to be jacked up. And so I think that he'll
find a way to coax more aggregate three point volume
out of not just the big three, but the entire team,
because like, oddly enough, this team is so good, but
like it's not really tailored to like his preferred offensive tenants,
and I think the only way to resolve that is
going to be with or earn some way is going
to reconcile it with a three point volume.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why I was mentioning earlier, Like, you know,
you've got a guy like Monte Morris traditionally a pretty
solid three point shooter, but has a big mid range
game in his in his bag, and like maybe his
budget's gonna come in and with guys like that, just
acts all of it and say no layups and threes.
That's all you're doing now as you run the offense,
like for fifteen minutes a game. Guy like Bull Bull
shot forty two forty three percent from deep last year
on low volume, But this year, is he going to
be encouraged to suddenly take four a game in like
eighteen minutes? Like I could see that. So yeah, there's
got to be a way for him to crack that formula.
But it's gonna take some creativity.
Speaker 4: For sure.
Speaker 2: He could not beat the mid range game out of
Chris Middleton though, so like maybe maybe I'm gonna be.
Speaker 1: Wrong on that front.
Speaker 2: Kevin Durant, you guys kind of already went through his
offensive struggles.
Speaker 1: I was pretty hard.
Speaker 2: I didn't think he was playing that good on defense,
Like the first I don't know if it was a
quarter of a season or fifteen games or whatever, And
I don't know if I just wasn't watching closely enough
or watching enough at all, But Mike, like, what did
he wind up meaning to this team defensively?
Speaker 4: By the end of the year, I think his def
I agree with you. Actually, I think the conversation on
his defense has been somewhat confusing to me. But I
do think over time that role started to make more
sense than what he was asked to do as being
sort of the guy that was the off ball roam
or rim protector that could help at the rim. And
I think he did get pretty good at that as
the season rolled along. It's it's hard to look at
what they did defensively and not give him a lot
of credit because, you know, as we talked about in
the half court, they did have a top ten defense
and he was a big important part of that. And it, honestly,
it just comes down to the fact that they play
so small and he's seven feet tall, so they need
a guy that's seven feet tall to kind of be
seven feet tall. Sometimes defensively, and I think he got
pretty good at that.
Speaker 3: What was is there?
Speaker 2: Like Sam, I'm here to pick one factor that contributed
to their I would say overachieving on defense relative to
their personnel you look at there was a lot of
low hanging fruit stuff. I thought that they were one
of the better teams the half court, kind of scurrying
around and avoiding mismatches.
Speaker 1: But like, what was the was there?
Speaker 2: If you had to boil it down to just one
driving factor or one thing that stood out the most
about their defensive performance, what would it be?
Speaker 3: I gues I would go back to kind of something
similar to what I said before and maybe say the
most surprising aspect of it to me was Nurk. I
really was impressed with the way that Nirk held it down.
And again, a huge amount of his success can be
attributed to KD playing the role that Mike was just
talking about. So when Nirk is, you know, not a
failsafe by himself on defense, KD is there to fill
in the gaps as a weak side defender when he's motivated.
There's still there are few players as good as KD
still at filling that role. But when you look at
the relative lack of size that this team had on
the perimeter, playing guys like Grayson Allen and Royce O'Neil
and all these other six four sixty three players on
the perimeter a lot. What Nurk and KD were able
to do teamed up together on the back end was
really really impressive, and we're going to need to continue
to see it because they did not give them any
additional size to work with on the wing going into
this year.
Speaker 2: I honestly if we can get into a couple of
their youngsters really quickly, Mike, do you have any impressions
offensive superstar Ryan Dunn?
Speaker 1: That was sarcasm to think.
Speaker 4: Before before the draft, I told Sam Ryan Dune is
the best defensive prospect in the draft, right And Sam
said yes, And we've gotten confirmation from draft guys that
he was the best defensive prospect in the draft.
Speaker 3: But my question we've gotten we've gotten some people who
have told us that he's the best defensive prospect they've
seen in like ten years. That was something that someone
said I would.
Speaker 2: Need to go back and look, but I need to
know someone his size who had a block rate for
two years in college that he did like I.
Speaker 1: Don't know that I've ever seen anything like that before.
Speaker 4: My question is Sam, before he was drafted, was is
he also the worst offensive prospect in the draft? And
I think he was? I really think he was.
Speaker 3: I think he's I think he's not because of Brownie,
but I think he's the second worst offensive prospect in
the draft.
Speaker 4: Probably. Yeah. So you know, it's the expectations have to
be in the right place for everyone watching Ryan Dune
this year in that unless they find the absolute perfect
role for him offensively, it's gonna be tough for him
to get a ton of minutes on this team. But
they also don't really have a player like him. The
closest they have is Joshua Kogi, who's a good few
inches shorter than Ryan Dunn. So to have a taller,
lengthy defender that could potentially protect the rim as a
help side defender or even guard like guards on the
other team, like star guards, is pretty valuable. So if
they can find a way to develop any sort of
offense out of him, I consider this a pretty great pick.
I'm excited to watch him. I just think really high
effort defenders tend to raise the overall effort of the team,
and if you watch the transition defense last year by
the Suns, they needed someone to raise their effort quite
a bit. So you know, I'm excited about watching him,
but I think my expectations are in the right place
for him.
Speaker 3: They also just get fans involved. Let's not forget, like
the Suns have who won the I don't know if
you track this, Dan They've got the Dan Harley Hustle
Award for the Suns is something that they give to
like the player who showed the most hustle every year.
They've been doing this for like a decade.
Speaker 4: P J.
Speaker 3: Tucker one in a million times, and Josh Kogie got it.
I think Grayson Grayson Allen won it last year, which
all due respect to Grayson Allen but is kind of tragic.
And maybe just to sign that the Suns they needed
to sign someone or sorry, draft someone like Ryan Dunn
just to get the fans involved to make those high
effort plays. Uh that that really get people to hit
another level of energy as they're watching, add some like.
Speaker 1: Variable cadence to the way they could play full floor.
Speaker 2: I know they play a little bit faster I think
than people understand, but like that's just someone who will
get up the floor.
Speaker 1: Based off what little.
Speaker 2: I've seen from him, sam any early impressions on I've
fallen in love with him.
Speaker 3: Ohzoe Gadaro, he's gonna be starting by a season, Zeen noo.
I'm kidding, but well, you said you basic last year.
Speaker 2: You both told me to go watch more closely to
Manti Kamara film afterwards. I did fell in love with him,
and the Sun has traded him.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he did, and he was he was fun last
another tragedy propect though.
Speaker 3: That's why I'm still I'm still worried because it's not
We're recording this still a month before the season actually begins,
and look, you never know. I am just so thrilled
that the Sons have actual youth for us to talk about,
and not just one player, but to what a privilege,
what a world we live in, to Mani Kamara is,
to many Kamara. Ohso a Gadaro is going to be
really interesting. I am worried. I'll just be frank. I'm
worried about his ability to like actually play center at
the NBA level, at least as a rookie until he
adds like twenty pounds. We know he brings some of
the vertical gravity, which is great, that something NRK absolutely
cannot do. But can he rebounds? Like, can he be
an effective defensive rebounder? Can he actually play and drop
coverage against bigger bodies? I don't know, we're going to
see it. We're going to see it eventually. But the
short roll stuff is real. He was playing that Nurk
role in Summer League where he was the guy dribbling
the ball up the floor and essentially being the point guard,
and honestly, his playmaking shops already we were really impressive
even at the summer league level. So OsO has How
would I put it? I would say, like Ryan Dunn
that there's a reason that Done was drafted, like what
was it, fifteen spots ahead of OsO? But I could
see a world where, especially because the Suns only have
two other bigs, They've got Nurkic and they've got Plumbly.
I don't know, I could see a world where OsO
is actually playing real minutes kind of on this team
before Ryan Done. Like do you disagree with that?
Speaker 4: No? No, I think that makes sense just from the
depth conversation conversation alone, I don't think Bull Bull can
play center. You know, I just don't think.
Speaker 3: I ask about Bull Bull already.
Speaker 1: Dan, what the next question on my outline?
Speaker 3: I've been waiting so patiently.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna use it as a way to like sand
which a bunch of players into here. So, can you
guys rank how these players how important they are going
to be the Suns this season? Between bull Ball and
Done oh So, Damian Lee, Monte Morris, Josha Kogi, and
Mason Plumbley, who.
Speaker 3: Do you want to go first?
Speaker 1: I think let's throw it to Sam because he's gonna
put bow Bol at number one.
Speaker 4: I'm really curious if you will, because I'm gonna debate
that if he doesn't.
Speaker 3: Actually, you know what I think. I think there's a
solid argument for Montey Morris to be number one. There
is that, not who you were thinking for number one.
Speaker 4: I think that Monte Morris and Mason Plumbley are the
only two players that for sure have a role on
this team. Yeah, I think everyone else you could you
could question whether or not they do. But after that,
the most likely is Bull Bull. By the way, it
was the only one of these guys who were really
effective last year.
Speaker 3: We talked about feeling bad for Bradley Beal earlier. If
there's anyone on this team you should actually feel bad for,
it's definitely Monte Morris. Because Monte Morris signed. Montey Morris
signed on a minimum, and there is no chance, absolutely
no chance that he or his agent thought that they
would go out because the Sons didn't even realize that
Tias was a possibility. At least that's what it feels like.
They would never you know.
Speaker 2: I think, look, I think people in the know were
shocked at how the market shook out this year. I
don't think anyone first saw how scared and confused teams
were gonna be.
Speaker 3: I think what happened there was the Suns really thought
Tias was just gonna be an MLA guy and wrote
him off and said, let's get Monte Morris. That's that's
the number one point guard on our target list, the
best guy we can get lo and behold. Three weeks later,
Tyas Jones is available, also for a minimum, and now
Montey Morris is sitting here going what the fuck I get?
Because now he's like a fifteen to eighteen minute per
game backup guy, and I think he's gonna excel in
that role. I would put Monte first in that list
that you presented to us, but I think Bull Bowl
is number two. Here's the thing about bull Bull though,
since you're letting me, letting me get on my soapbox.
His worst minutes last year were at center. He's not
a center. We can't force him to be a center.
But if you can play him next to a center.
He fits next to so many different guys for two reasons. One,
his defensive role is clear. You put him if there's
any bad shooter, for instance, on the other team, you
just stick him on the bad shooter. He fills up
all the all the open space in rooms around. But
this facts that he can also shoot, and boy can
he shoot. He had a seventy percent true shooting season
last year. I know is low volume, but seventy percent
true shooting, terrific touch around the basket over forty percent
from deep. The fact that he can shoot really allows
you to play him at power forward next two non
shooters like Yusuf Nurkic, like Mason Plumley, like OsO Gadaro,
like Kevin Durant. Kevin Durant is a shooter, but he
could play next to Kevin Durant as well. There are
so many potential lineup combinations for the Suns to have
buwl Bull at the four. I think he's actually set
up to have a really interesting season where maybe he
is the second most important guy on that list, and
then I would put Plumbley third. Who else is there?
Josh Koge, Damian Lee, and the two rookies.
Speaker 2: I guess you just you're not writing it off, but
like it's very unlikely that any one of the two
rookies can kind of like wedge their way into being
important to this team.
Speaker 3: No, I think they totally could, but it's it's gonna
be tough. I'll put it this way. It's it's a
good sign for the Suns that Joshakogi and Damien Lee
who are on this list. Those are two guys who
damianly missed last year dude injury. But two years ago
both of those guys played like fifteen hundred minutes for
this team and now we're talking about them as like
guys number eleven and twelve, twelve and thirteen in the
depth charts something like that, right, So that's a great
place for them to be in depth. From the death perspective,
compared to where they were, say when they lost to
Denver playing Terrence Ross in the playoffs.
Speaker 2: You know, Mike, would you care to throw any more
praise at Bubul while we're here.
Speaker 4: I'm excited for Bobol as well. I think Sam said
he can shoot. He shot well for one season, so
I'm kind of scared that that's real or not, you know,
because we kind of really need it to be in
order for him to play a role. It was interesting
to watch him last year because he was really great
and there were times where he like he was like
changing games when they put him in off the bench.
First of all, the crowd loved him, but also his
defense really really made a difference. And if you play
him Kevin Durant, Bull Bull plus a center, that's huge.
That's like a massive, massive lineup. It's the only way
for the Suns to play big. But he still couldn't
play in the playoffs. I think maybe Vogel probably should
have tried him, but he still couldn't really play in
the playoffs because it's hard to rely on his defense
for long stretches against great teams. So I do wonder
we just really needed shooting to be great. If she's
also sustained at forty three point shooting. Then he has
a role in the NBA and could potentially have a
role in the playoffs.
Speaker 3: He's he's the Pokemon evolution of Michael Porter Junior. Congratulations.
Speaker 2: I think I was gonna say he's based off how
I expect Bud to use him defensively, even how the
Suns used him last year, especially like post February or
whatever it was. Uh, he's gonna well, actually, I'm expecting
now Sam to call him Giannis with a jump shot.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Yiannis with a bag. That's that's what he's
gonna be. God, I hope no Bugs fans listen to this.
I just want to also say, seventy seven percent free
throw shooter over the past two years combined when he's
played actual minutes with Orlando and Phoenix. So you know,
it's good to have. It's a privilege to have bigs
who can actually make their free throws. Does that mean
that the three point shooting is real? No, not necessarily,
but I think it's just you know, another data point
of evidence in the Bowl Bowl camp.
Speaker 2: If he's going to be playing a bunch is that
I guess whose role does that impact the most when
you're looking at the resorts, Like, is Mason Plumley's in that?
Speaker 4: I don't think it.
Speaker 3: Like if we look at the five, like let's say
Bud does something really simple and just wants five guys
all at different positions, runs a ten man rotation. There's
a really natural group of five guys of Monte Morris, Grayson,
Allen Royce, O'Neil bull Bowl, and Mason Plumley, And that's
one guy at each position, and they all naturally fit
into those roles.
Speaker 4: It's Joshakog the now if.
Speaker 3: You want to throw in Joshua Kogi or if you
want to throw in Ryan Dunn or ohso now because
you've got to figure something out, it becomes a little
bit more difficult. But I think the five most talented
players off the bench are Morris, Allen, Royce, and plum Lee,
all four guys who like literally have been starters in
the past. And then your wild card is Bulbul the
upside guy.
Speaker 2: Are you guys ready to enter the Cookie Cutter Dead
Sprint portion?
Speaker 1: I'm sure is there? Mike?
Speaker 2: Is there anything about this team that's flying under the
radar that we haven't talked about that you think needs
to be discussed.
Speaker 4: I honestly think the change from Frank Vogel to Bud
maybe is a little bit underrated by people who didn't
watch much of the Suns last year. I think that's
a bigger change than people are realizing.
Speaker 1: Sam.
Speaker 3: Anything else, I'm inclined to agree with that something we're
underrating about this team. I think this team has a
target on It's not even a target on its back.
It's just I feel like not a lot of people
are currently thinking about this team really as deserving to
be in the upper echelon of the Western Conference. And
I can't say I blame anyone for feeling that way.
But they need to get their offensive juice back. Hopefully
we see it if they want to get back in
the top four.
Speaker 2: Sam, you have the ability right now, before watching any games,
to address one need on this roster. What is the
specific need that you're addressing.
Speaker 3: God, they need wing size. They need wing size. I mean,
if I could just take roy O'Neil honestly and just
add four inches to his height, then that's what I
would do.
Speaker 4: It's Joyne Phinney Smith, That's who that is.
Speaker 3: So here's the thing, I want I want wing size,
but I don't want to trade Grayson Allen to get it.
So that's why this becomes basically an impossible task. And
I also don't think, unfortunately that usif nurkicas any trade value.
This is something we've talked about before Dan, So yeah,
it's it's one thing to want things and it's another
thing to get them. We don't always get what we want.
And this is a conversation that we're going to be
having add nauseam until February. Can the Suns add more size?
To what extent do they need size to succeed against
bigger teams of the playoffs?
Speaker 1: Do you, Mike?
Speaker 2: Would you not that you expect, but do you think
this team is serious about like they would put their
twenty thirty one draft pick on the table?
Speaker 4: I have zero doubt that they would. Yes, I have
zero doubt.
Speaker 2: Would you trade that pick for Tari Easton and Dylan Brooks?
Speaker 3: Oh, Dylan Brooks.
Speaker 4: That's interesting. Who who's going to.
Speaker 1: The kids to be?
Speaker 2: I think would have to be Grayson or actually Dylan
Brooks I ever got makes too much money. But my
thing is has always been that I want Tar Easton
On this team and that the Houston Rockets have already
kind of shorted Phoenix's future, so why not continue to
do so?
Speaker 3: No Taras, Yeah, tar Easton would be fun, but like
you're saying, I don't think we can get Brooks, So.
Speaker 4: I mean, theoretically, I don't think I would do that. Well, actually,
you know what, I probably would.
Speaker 2: I would do it again, I'm not I'm not watching
all eighty three of eighty two Sons games a year.
Speaker 4: So it's just tough because Grayson was the most consistent
guy last year. Like, if we're talking about transition defense,
there's so often that somebody scores at the rim on
the other team against the Suns, and the only one
running back is Grayson Allen, and it's tough to want
to trade that guy. You know, That's what got him
the Dan Marley Hustle Award.
Speaker 1: This team is at full strength. We kind of gott
into this a little bit.
Speaker 2: But Sam is like, what does the top ten rotation
look like at full strength?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's so. The starting five is Tyas Jones,
Bradley Beal, Devin Booker, Kevin Durant, Yusef Nerkic. First five
off the bench, like, like I just said, is Monte
Morris Well Grayson Allen being the first one off the bench.
But it's Monte Morris, Grayson Allen, Royce, O'Neil, Bowl, Bull,
Mason Plumley. I'm doing it in order of position, right
point guard through center. Those are the ten guys and
everyone else has to prove it. Josha Kogi, We've given
you a lot of minutes in the past couple of years.
We even gave you a contract extension, so.
Speaker 1: There's allow a lot of money so.
Speaker 3: That you're eligible to be traded mid season here potentially,
no more pity minutes for Josh. I love Josha Kogy.
He's really fun to watch, but no more pity minutes.
You need to be able to shoot if you want
to prove that you can be on the court.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 3: Damian Lee, I think is a great shooter, but he's
not going to be guaranteed any minutes. And then the
two rookies. I would love for one of them to
shove their way into that rotation somehow, but it's just
it's it's not going to be in an at ability
for either of them.
Speaker 2: Mike, I think for this team more than most the
crunch time stuff will be very matchup dependent. But if
I force you to choose, and I am forcing you
to choose, what is going to be their go to
crunch time lineup?
Speaker 4: Uh, I think it'll probably be the starting five. Okay,
I would not mind a scenario with Kevin Durant at
center a little bit more, but I don't think they're
gonna do that in the regular season very much, just
because Kevin Durant is getting up there in age and uh,
you know it's hard to play center a lot.
Speaker 3: Can I say, can I just so when kd plays
at the five? Because I do think they're gonna do that,
Who's who becomes the fifth? Who are you replacing Nirk with?
Is it Grayson or is it Yeah?
Speaker 4: I would think it would be Grayson. And I think
there's even a scenario where Grayson and Royce O'Neil are
playing in Tyas Jones and Nurkic sit. Yeah, it'd be
Devin Booker, Grayson Allen Roys, O'Neil, Kevin Durant.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's your best.
Speaker 2: Kevin Durant at the five line up, by the way,
is the one that you just mapped out.
Speaker 3: That's that's your most I mean again, we talk about
these guys are like six and how great would it
be if they were all six seven? But look, that's
just the NBA. That's your most switchable lineup for sure.
Speaker 4: It's also one of the only five out lineups you
can create on this team.
Speaker 3: Right, it's five out, it's switchable. That's your Like, let's
try and play a little bit like the Celtics lineup.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Sam, we'll start with you.
Speaker 2: Is there a funky, weirdo, offbeat lineup you would like
to see this team try?
Speaker 3: Yeah, give me Ryan Dunn, Bull Bull and KD in
the same front court. That would be fun. So let's
just wreak defensive chaos everywhere. And I don't know, maybe
that lineup would need like a point guard like Tius
or something too, But I want length. I want length
Ryan done. Can he do anything offensively? I don't know.
We're gonna find out, but his defense to offense would
be really fun. I know Bull Bull can do that,
I know KD can do that. Putting all those guys
assembling them into the same unit, what's the net rating
gonna be? I have no idea, but I'm gonna have fun.
Every minute watching that, Mike, do you have one?
Speaker 4: Honestly, if it's hard not to put bull Bull in them,
but some sort of Ryan done Bull Bull KD lineup
is exactly right. I think you can find a scenario
where Ryan Dunn essentially gets to play center. He's the
guy like setting the screen and rolling to the rim,
and you don't have to worry about him shooting because
you potentially have four other shooters around him, and then
you just try to see how good that defense could
potentially be and just roll with that and give it
a try.
Speaker 2: You know, I initially had Devin Booker, Kevin Durant, Grayson
Allen and the two rookies, but you guys might have
talked me into subbing out Grayson Allen for Bull Bull, and.
Speaker 3: We actually Ryan. I mean, it would be really fun
to watch the rookies as far as I can tell,
Like they're good guys that get along together already, So
getting some minutes of Ryan, Don Andoso together would be fun.
And I do think it could potentially work the two
of them together.
Speaker 4: Put Bull Bull there too to help add some size.
You're saying quirky and unconventional. How could you not put
bull bull in it.
Speaker 2: Yeah maybe Okay, guys, as we record this, they're over
under set at forty seven and a half wins.
Speaker 1: Mike, are you taking the over the under?
Speaker 4: I would take the over. I think that it's coach
Bud and he just wins a lot of games in
the regular season pretty consistently, so it's it's tough to uh,
tough to take the under on that. But you know,
they and they won more last year.
Speaker 2: They won, They're gonna be this is weird. I wonder
what the rationale is. But behind lowering their total compared
to last year.
Speaker 4: It's my thought, I think Memphis is going to be better.
Like you know, I think there's I get it.
Speaker 3: My theory is just that it's Memphis coming for vengeance
in addition to the blood bath that the West already is.
What's what's okay, c's over under do you have that
in front of you? Is at like seventy two and
a half?
Speaker 1: Half? That is high?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's high, but look, that's how good people expect
that team to be. So there is some level of
depletion in the West going on where it's just like
you're not expected to win a ton of games. That said,
we won forty nine last year, and I think our
depth is just objectively better, so I would take I
would take the over on forty seven and a half.
Speaker 2: Okay, Sam, this is not a portion for the Raw
Raw fans. But which teams the West right now? Are
you going to guarantee are better than the Suns? Or
you and Mike could you collectively come to there?
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good idea, He's okay See.
Speaker 3: I would guarantee okay See is better than the Suns.
And I have lots and lots of respect for other teams,
teams that have beat us in previous playoffs, the Minnesota Timberwolves,
the Denver Nuggets, But if you ask me to guarantee
that all those other teams are better than the Suns,
I'm not gonna do it. I think the only team
I guarantee is okay See.
Speaker 4: I think I agree because you could say Denver, because
Denver has a better, you know, top best player, but
they have just taken beatings on their depth over the
last seas. Den Dallas of course made the Dallas made
the finals last year. But I know it's tough to say.
Speaker 2: I don't know who I'll end up guarantee, but I
think Dallas and okayc for me, I'm pretty high on
Dallas at the moment. But I also think if you
told me the Suns are just the best team in
the Western Conference, I wouldn't beatt and I either.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think.
Speaker 3: They've got a low ceiling too though, right, that's the thing. Yes,
I feel like we've got we've got more variants here
than maybe most of the team.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they could be they could miss the playoffs, or
they could be the best team in the West, and
neither of those would be like entirely surprising.
Speaker 2: Guys, Is there anything, any one, anything at all I
didn't ask you about that you would like to discuss
before I let Uskadado.
Speaker 3: You always come to be so prepared to that, honestly
that I think these are outstanding questions, and.
Speaker 4: I think you covered it all. The one thing that
didn't come up, and I appreciate this, don't get me wrong,
this entire conversation the second apron. So I appreciate the
fact that we didn't have to talk about the second
apron at all on this podcast. Dan, thank you for that.
Speaker 2: Well, they didn't run and hide from it like a
certain team in Colorado, so I applaud them for that.
Speaker 1: Mike, we'll start with you.
Speaker 2: Can you just tell our listeners quickly where they can
find you and all the fantastic work that you do
and if you both yeah, love the podcast, that's great too.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Our podcast is called The Timeline of Phoenix Sun's podcast.
You can find it on all of of the audio
podcast apps. Check it out subscribe. We cover the Phoenix
Suns pretty exclusively, but we also have a podcast we
just recorded about Adrian Roganowski and him retiring that maybe
all NBA fans could find pretty interesting, So check that
one out. Yeah, and you can follow me on Twitter.
I'm still gonna call it that at protected pick is
my name Sam?
Speaker 1: Where can the people find you?
Speaker 3: At s Cooper Hoops on Twitter also, and yeah, i'd
echo everything Mike says. Check us out if you're interested
in some more Suns coverage, Spotify, Apple, Google, you know
the usual places.
Speaker 2: Anyone who listens to this podcast religiously knows. I love
these guys on their podcast. The links to the Timeline
podcast will be into YouTube and podcast description. Thank you,
gentlemen so much for doing this every year, and as
you know by now, I will be featuring you again, Davilot,
Thank you the best, Dan