Speaker 1: This is we do. Hey, guys, welcome back to another
episode of the Typical Skeptic podcast. Excuse me, I have
another fascinating guest with me today. I saw this woman
on Chris from Forbidden Knowledge News Channel, and I figured
that she would be perfect for my show because of
the kind of the content matter that that she goes into,
like aliens and demons, and it's all happening in tech.
You know whether this has happened. This is in Texas.
And the story is about her brother who is named
Jim O'Connell, who was an experiencer, and he had a
website which I'm going to show you guys now. It's
called Experiencers X Experiencers. Uh right here, let me pull
it up and uh and and then you guys can
see a copy of her book as well. The book's
called Bleed Through A True Story of Aliens, Demons and
Pure Evil in Texas by Patricia Copley O'Connell. And she's
writing this and and the and in lieu of her
her late brother, who is that who tried to build
this site for you know, his follower or you know
the people that knew of his case. So I've never
heard of his case personally. But first of all, do
you go by Pata Patricia? Which one would you worry?
Speaker 2: I go by pat.
Speaker 1: Okay pat Thank you for coming on. How are you?
Speaker 2: I'm great? And thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1: So where did you want to start with this? This
is amazing? Like, I guess this story is about your brother,
Like what what? What? What? What happened? Like talk to
tell us through?
Speaker 2: Well, the story was it's kind of secondhand through my brother.
My brother Uh was an abductee, or at least he
believed he had been abducted by aliens multiple times. And
he had started a he had started a group trying
to just collect the stories of people other experiencers. And
then he realized that the experiencers themselves needed some kind
of acknowledgment, some kind of recognition that what's happening to
them is real, whether it's objectively real or it's some
kind of psychological phenomenon. It affected their lives very profoundly.
And so after a while he had met hundreds and
hundreds of people all over the world, you know, through
the Internet, and he started developing a reality TV show
and he wanted to tell these stories. And when he
came and he had been involved in this for years
and years, had been you know, learning the ins and
outs of getting things on TV and production and the
drama and financing all that. And he he called me
one day and he said that he had this one
case that was just mind blowing even for him. I mean,
this man had believed he had been abducted by aliens
and this story blew his mind. And he started telling
me all the things that this guy, Clay Wheeler, there's
this guy in Texas at a little airport. He's been
having all these experiences he's had, you name it. He's
had ghosts, UFOs, aliens, poltergeist, demons, you know, just all
kinds of crazy stuff. And he said that, he said,
I can't possibly cover this guy's story in an episode
of the TV show one hour episode. I couldn't even
cover it if I did three episodes about it. So
he knew I was a writer, and he said, would
you be interested in first of all vetting the guy
because I'm in Texas, my brother was in Connecticut, and
what you know, would I be interested in talking to
this guy making sure he's not a Looney Tunes and
would be a waste of time. And second, would I
be interested in possibly writing a book or multiple books,
or a screenplay or all of the above, because this
story is just so big. And I said, well, sure,
that sounds really interesting. And then he said, by the way,
this guy claims that he shot and buried an alien,
and of course, wow, my eyes, my eyes were already
bugging out. And then when he said that, I just
my jaw dropped and I'm like, yes, I'm in for sure.
So that's how how it got started. So it's it
was Jimmy's story, but it was his covering the story
of this guy, Clay Wheeler that I got pulled into.
And then you know, time passed and then my brother,
uh passed away in the middle of all of this,
and so you know, then it came down to me.
So that is kind of a long answer to your question.
Speaker 1: No, no, it's interesting. So tell us about this guy
Clay Wheeler's story, like without him too much of the
book away, like what happened to him? And uh, why
did he feel that he buried an alien? Like does
it all kind of lead up to that? Or like what?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that there, yeah, there there are various
things that lead up to it. So it Clay Wheeler
will start with that was a aircraft mechanic. He had
his own business. He owned his own hangar in this
little place in the middle of nowhere, and he had
a crew that worked for him that you know, they
they were building up the business and all this, and
he started seeing UFOs. Well, if you know anything about aviation,
if you know, we hear all the stories about the pilots,
if they report UFOs, they're you know, they're flying a
disc that they can't you know, they're they're treated with disrespect.
You know, their their challenge that they could lose their jobs.
So he that being in the aviation business, you don't
talk about this, and so you know, he tried to
keep it in for the longest time. But the problem
was that there were all these other things that were happening.
So it wasn't just UFOs that he was seeing. He
saw that when there was something about the airport or
that area that was affecting people's moods and behaviors. It's
like he said that when his guys would clock in
for work, their their mood was just would turn dark.
And the one person that was most affected by that
piece of it was his wife, and her behavior got
progressively worse and worse.
Speaker 1: And worse the way, I have a question, did we
were and both his wife both work at this airport,
I'm guessing.
Speaker 2: Well, he had he built an apartment on the end
of the hang so he owned his hangar. There was
a hangar and in the middle there was an office,
and then on the other end of the hangar building
he built an apartment because he and his wife bought
some land nearby and they wanted to live cheap while
they saved up money to build a house on that land.
So she was eventually living there at the apartment, and
he lived there at the apartment throughout all of this craziness. So,
you know, it started with you know, like I said,
with seeing UFOs, and he couldn't tell anybody. As it
turned out, later on, he found out that the people
who worked for him were seeing them too, but nobody
was talking about it because they work in aviation, so
they all saw the same things, and nobody wanted to
talk about it because they didn't want to lose their jobs.
They didn't want him to lose his business. So but meanwhile,
these personality changes are happening and there was a story.
One of the early stories was a poltergeist case where
he said he went looking he was it was just
him and his wife there at the at the hangar
building one night, and he couldn't find his keys. And
he said it was a big wat of keys that
had everything on it. His you know, his truck, hard truck,
the the apartment, the hangar, their their rental in town,
you know, just everything. But he had this tag on it.
It's a red long skinny tag that is a They
call it the removed before flight tag. So when you're
repairing an aircraft part and you're done, you stick this
tag on there so that you know before you fly
the plane you have to remove the tag to make
sure the repairs are done. So he had this tag
on his key ring and he couldn't find his keys anywhere.
And he looked and he looked, and he said he
only kept him in two different places. It was the
desk drawer or in his pocket, and he couldn't find him.
And he and he calls to his wife, you know,
have you seen my keys? Now? I haven't seen my keys.
So he looked everywhere he could think of, including places
he couldn't imagine just because they weren't where they should
have been. So in the middle of all of this,
the heat kicks on. It was wintertime, and the heat
kicks on in the hanger. And you know what a
hanger looks like. It's huge, tall, thirty foot tall ceiling.
And he hears this flicking noise coming from above when
the heater kicked on, and he looked up and they're
hanging from the rafters thirty feet up in the hangar.
Was this red removed before flight tag that was attached
to his keys. His keys somehow or another got up
in the rafters of the hangar, and so again, you know,
he doesn't tell anybody at this about this stuff because
who's going to believe him. They're going to think he's
losing his mind. So he's keeping all of this stuff in.
And then the ships start landing out there, not yes,
landing or hovering out there. The first one was I
call it the soap bubble. It wasn't exactly like a
soap bubble, but he said it had this iridescent It
was just an orb kind of thing. But you know,
we think of an orb as like a little dust
moat floating across the screen. This was I think it was.
He said. It was like twenty or thirty feet in diameter,
and it came out and it scared the crap out
of him. This was the first thing that he saw,
and so he watched it for a while and then
it flew up into the air and then dove down
into the ground. And he expected some kind of an
explosion or a crash for some something, and it was nothing.
It was like it just vanished into the ground. And
so after it was gone, he's looking at the at
the tarmac and they're trying to see if, you know,
did it melt, did it dissolve with you know, what happened?
And there was nothing, nothing to show for this, for
this thing that had been there. So, you know, he's
he's he's scared, but at the same time, he's fascinated.
He wants desperately, once he once he comes to terms
with the fact that these might be extraterrestrials, he desperately
wants to communicate with them. He wants to know what
they know. And uh, you know, at one point he
you know, he had had several ships come out and
and in fact other kinds of ships, uh, you know,
the classic Mexican hat. One of those came out and
hovered over the runway, and he said that one scared
him to death, and you know, he just he was
frozen there for a while and he just kind of
talked to it, but you know, he just couldn't come
to grips with the fact that these things were were there,
they were real, but he couldn't he couldn't communicate with them.
So so that was his part of his journey through
all of this that he desperately wanted to commute communicate
with them. But as we know, because this is where
I started, all of this leads toward him ultimately shooting
and burying an alien. So the situation kind of degrades
and degrades and degrades over time. So he's got the
ship's coming and then he sees the first aliens.
Speaker 1: And that was that, like, oh my god, he's actually
had contact with these aliens, Like.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, I mean contact as in they were I
described to the airport or the hangar, the office in
the middle, and the apartment on the end. He opened
the door. Okay, so let me back up. He woke up,
his wife was still I think she was either working later,
she was still at the house in town, and so
he was there by himself, and it was three o'clock
in the morning. He couldn't sleep, so he calls his
sister who worked in who was working in China at
the time, so he knew it was three, you know,
broad daylight where she was. So he figured, I'll catch
up with her. So he calls her, and you know,
being kind of an antsy guy, he kind of paces
while he's talking to his sister and just absently, he
goes over to the door that is between his apartment
and the office and he just casually, without any particular purpose,
opens up the door into the office. And he said,
all of this took place in just a few seconds,
but he everything that happened was just etched into his brain.
He said, I opened the door and on my left
I saw two gray aliens that were about he said,
three and a half four feet tall. But the weird thing,
he said, aside from having aliens in your office, he
said that when I opened the door, they moved out
of the way together like they were joined like a gate.
He said, it was like a gate. And so he said,
you know, I'm looking at these aliens and thinking he
was just struck by the way they moved together, as
they were one unit. And then his I went to
the right, and he said, there was this tall guy
and it was he said, it was tan, dark skinned
kind of but he said, and it was naked. He
said it was naked, but it had no features, so
it was like a kendall, you know, like just no
features on this body. And he said the eyes were huge,
and they bulged out, and the lids closed from the
top and the bottom. And he said there were bulges
in the back of its head, so that, you know,
And this one scared him. The two little ones didn't
scare him, other than the fact that it was so unexpected.
But this one on the right, he said, it started
toward him, and he said, next thing I know, I
dropped the phone, closed the door, and I don't know
how long it was before he was brave enough to
go back in there. But when I talked to his
sister much later, she said, actually, when he was on
the phone, he said gotta go and hung up. So
but she she was there when he was seeing all this.
But he's describing in great detail this encounter. So now
he knows that these creatures can get into his house,
into it where he lives, where he works, and you know,
the doors were locked, so how did they get in?
So that's that was the beginning of his awareness that
the aliens could invade his personal space.
Speaker 1: And yeah, and that's that's commonplace with I mean, other
abductees that I've heard throughout time, like they just find
their They just you know, if you listen to like
the stories of like Jim Sparks for example, Like Jim
Sparks used to come on the Art Belshaw. He said that, uh,
these aliens would just come into his house and they
would walk around and they look at stuff, and like
it was it was fascinating. Like he was saying that
he loaded a gun and he was going to actually
shoot one of the aliens, like he was he was
going to shoot it, and then it telepathically said to
him and said put the gun down. We know you
know you're not a killer. And and and then it
made him, it made him stop completely in his tracks,
like he, uh, you know that that's one one. I mean,
but there's not many people who have what we call
conscious recall of their abductions, like you know, so it's
interesting that this guy was having or contact. You know,
a lot of a lot of times people have contact
that's happened in like the astro or theic realms or
something like that, you know what I mean. So like
for him to be having like physical contact in this
three D space is pretty amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there. And he had many of these
signings that were during broad daylight too, So that's something
I've never really heard much of.
Speaker 1: It's not everyone. We can ask you a question more
his Was his coworkers involved, did they see anything or
was it just.
Speaker 2: He says that there were some that that saw some
of these things that happened. Now I'm still in the
process of trying to track down those witnesses. I found
one and interviewed him a couple of weeks ago, uh,
and he confirmed some of the not an alien sighting.
Now he believes that what Clay saw were demons, not aliens.
And I've heard that. I've heard others say that. But
now Clay had encounters that he believed were like he
thought he saw the devil push himself up out of
the ground. He saw one night in his living room
this bluish, undulating light that he said, look like he
thought it looked like an angel only made out of plasma.
So this plasma energy is sort of waving through the
middle of air, the air in his living room, and
he said, you know, first of all, he said, it
had brown hair, and it threw him off because he
just pictured angels as being blonde. So I thought that
that was interesting. So he sees this, this creature or
this plasma whatever it is, energy and he said, then
there was a dark energy that pull that that kind
of came up through the floor and it started interacting
with this beautiful blue light. And he said it was almost,
you know, like the the dark force was trying to
attack the light force. And he said that that there
was this whole kind of a dance that the two
entities or lights went through, and he when it was over,
it was almost as if the blue light had vanquished
the dark light. And he thought, you know, is this
some kind of a good versus evil play that's being
enacted in front of my eyes in my living room
And I'm being told that good will conquer evil or something,
you know. So he it's not really clear that, I mean,
he had there was so much of everything, so there
were things he perceived as aliens, but there were also
things he perceived as demons or literally he saw, like
I said, he saw what looked like the devil. He
said it was red. It was red all over, and
it was slick like it was covered with wet blood
and it was he said, it was pushing itself up
out of the ground and it scared him to death.
Speaker 1: Wow, what what were the demonic presences? Does he does?
He does he get into that at all? And like
what did he did? And did the demonic presences happen
like around the time that the aliens were coming around, Like.
Speaker 2: It's all kind of woven together. And then so we
were talking about like a physical demon or a devil.
But then I told you about those those personality changes. Well,
his wife started to change in ways that he described
as demonic possession. He thought she was possessed, and so
you know, she started getting darker and darker, like, uh,
one day, she they were having an argument. They'd both
driven their separate trucks to a restaurant and they had
an argument at the restaurant and he followed her out
to the truck because she was going to go to
work and he was holding on to the door of
the truck, and she slammed the door on his hand
and dragged him for like a mile and a half
until she finally either realized he was there or decided
that he had had enough. I'm not I have no
idea what was going through her head.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but he he ended up in the hospital with
broken bones, broken ribs, you know, scrapes and everything like that.
So that was that was one of the first things
that indicated that her personality was changing. And then later on,
she wakes up in the morning one day and she
looks like she's about eight months pregnant. I mean, she
was in good shape and before that, she wakes up
looking like she was about eight months pregnant. And it
freaked him out because he's thinking, what in the world
can do this? You know, has she been you know,
I'm thinking the alien, you know the alien movie where
the alien breaks out of the guy and runs off,
and he doesn't know what to think. He just knows
that this isn't normal, and I need to get to
the doctor. And she ends up through a lot of gyrations,
ends up kicking him in the head and he falls
over onto the tile floor and is knocked out for
a while, she's she goes away, she's gone, and then
hours later she comes back and she's fine and the
belly is gone. That morning, he had also seen her
eating red meat out of the refrigerator. It was it
was hamburger meat set out for ready for dinner, to
cook for dinner, and he caught her just digging her
hands into the package of hamburger.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I mean, and he knew something was radically
wrong with her. And so the end of the trajectory
with her is that she shows up in the middle
of the day and you know, at his hangar, everybody's working,
and she's got his thirty eight, and she starts taking
shots at everybody. Yeah yeah, and she empties. You know,
it's got a cylinder. She empties the cylinder and fortunately
she didn't hit anybody, and so everything was okay. But
she ends up going to jail, and he convinced everybody
not to press charges, so she ultimately got out. Don't
ask me, I would think it wouldn't matter whether any
I don't know anything about that kind of law, but
I would think.
Speaker 1: Yeah, especially like in Texas, because you know, they're like
at the same time, there is you know, I think
a lot of states are like really open about gun laws.
But it same time, if you commit a crime in
some states with guns, like you know that, you know,
they can really pinue. You know. It's just I guess
it just depends on the judge. And like you know,
I don't know not either. I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, so
I don't know, so, you know, I mean, but it's
it's interesting. Let me ask you this. Did he seek
out any kind of help from any churches or spiritual people?
So maybe if it wasn't a church, did he speak
out and he seek out any spiritual help for his wife,
like you know, to try to like drive these forces
out of her.
Speaker 2: He'd well, not so much her after she took the
shots at his crew. They had been trying to get
him to at least separate from her or divorce, and
he finally after she shot up the hangar, he got
divorced from her. But yes, he ultimately did. He called
a priest and the priest came out. I think the
priest came out a couple of times and tried to
bless the place, and he said he hung crosses over
the doorways and things like that, and he said it
helped for a while, But I don't know, I don't
think he ever had the opportunity to, you know, the
we're thinking in terms of of an exorcistem. I don't
think he ever had that opportunity to do anything with
her because she was so uncontrollable, she was so violent,
and ultimately he just had to cut ties with her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's weird. I think a lot of times, like
when when when when you deal with like cases of
like demons or whatever, this is like they look for
like the weakest link in the family or they find
a weak link and then they possessed the spirit of
that person. You know, So maybe something about her wasn't
right that kind of opened her up to demonic possession.
But it makes me think that, like it makes me
start to think that this place was on a portal
because like, you know what in the I'm looking at
the website now as you're talking, and you said, the
things that happen at this airport kind of make the
events at Skinwalker Ranch like you know that pale by comparison. Well,
you know that makes me think I think Skinwalker Ranch
is on a portal, and I'm starting to think that
maybe this place was on a portal. Like I think
there's maybe stuff that exists in other dimensions that you know,
we just don't know about because our visual I talked
to someone about this the other day, I think I
actually I had Chris on my show from Forbid Knowledge News,
and we were talking about how our our lights, our
visual light spectrum, it's limited. Excuse me, it's limited, so
we don't see all these things that are in our reality.
But some people, you know, like the seers, and like
some people like the you know, the psychics, and uh,
some people that you could say that are a higher
frequency you can kind of see through the sometimes and experiencers.
But so sorry, I kind of went on a tangent there.
I don't know where I was going to. Oh, what
I was saying was, did you think that this place
was on a portal?
Speaker 2: Well, okay, you're thinking the way I was thinking. I mean,
I started out he had been working there, he had
been living there for years before all this happened, And
it just started in twenty ten and it ran through
twenty thirteen when he had to leave. So why all
those other years did it not happen, and so I
was being a skeptic. So you know, your podcast is
the typical skeptic. I'm a skeptic, but I'm the good kind.
I'm the kind that is open to possibilities. I'm just
not a pushover. I need I need you to give me. Yeah,
I need you to give me some good evidence, and
I'm going to debunk what I can. So I started
looking at what could have changed in twenty ten, and
the only thing I could get from him was, you know,
the only thing different was that the county had had
a oil with an oil drill, a test well or
something dug on the airport property and they didn't find anything,
I guess, and so they pulled it out. But ever since,
there's kind of a sinkhole there and periodically the county
has to come in with dump trucks and dirt and
fill it in. So I'm thinking, as the skeptic, could
that rig have tapped into some kind of a gas,
a toxic gas or something like that could have gotten
either into the air that would affect everybody in an area,
or into the water. And so you know that there
was that question from a conventional explanation, but Clay one
night saw a portal, an absolute portal, open up, and
it was one of those things where and I know
on skin Walker they've had they've had a portal open
up and the person who's in the right spot can
see it, can see through it or see into it
and see what's in it, but a person one hundred
feet away can't see anything. The sky just looks normal.
So Clay saw this portal open and it was like
a doorway, and he said it was like something was
just pulled like like a window shade, only on the side,
and it was like it pulled this portal open. And
he said it was open for about an hour and
these various ships came out. There were creatures coming out.
There was what he calls the man walking wolf. So
it's a wolf that's walking on its hind legs.
Speaker 1: A dog man.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: And there's a desert. You know. That's like, actually, you know,
it's interesting, you said, because that's like actually kind of
and the paranormal, like you know, there's like dog man
sightings a lot, you know, so that that's like it's
like a creature, you know what I mean, It's like
it's it's it's interesting that you say that. So it's
like he was seeing things that like other people see,
almost like it's it's this, this is amazing.
Speaker 2: Well, and so being the skeptic, I'm thinking, Okay, I'm
looking at the pictures and I'm thinking, okay, are these
lights on the buildings? And the image is just blown
out because you've overexposed it or something. And so I
asked him, are there are there lights that are on
a timer? Are are they lights that are motion sensor connected?
And he said no, they're on all the time. And
I since learned that that the lights are either on
all night or if the bulbs burn out, they're not on.
But the skeptic in me is saying, if this was
a normal light out there, he would have seen it
every night, and it only happened this one night and
it was open for an hour. And the funny thing is,
he said, I wish I had written down all the
things I saw come out of it, because I wanted
to make sure they all went back in before it closed.
So you know, yeah, so you know, it's just weird
stuff that happened. I mean, one day, his secretary said
that she was concerned because the electric bill was like
a thousand dollars higher than usual, and it was during
a time. So when the story started, the business was
going really well. He was able to hire more people.
He was getting all these contracts, and as story progressed,
Clay got sicker and sicker. Of course, he was beat
up too from his wife dragging him and all these
other things. So he gets sicker and sicker, and the
business starts going downhill. And I think I forgot where
I was going with that, but oh yeah, so he
said that she told him that the electric bill was
one thousand dollars higher than usual for the airport, and
because he was the only one out there, he had
to maintain the runway lights and things like that. So
he's like, damn. You know, it's one thing after another.
So a client refused to pay or they were late
paying their bill or whatever it was. He was having
money problems, and so this was this was another upset.
PAL on these other upsets, and then one night he
is looking through I think this was one. I get
mixed up as to which things he saw directly in
which things he saw on his security camera. But one
night he sees these discs. They're like discs, but with
a bite in the back of them. And if you're
familiar with the the original ufo, Oh god, what was
the guy's name that the first coin that he didn't
coin the term UFOs or flying saucers. Oh gosh, Kenneth Arnold. Yes,
I could get the ken his drawing what showed a disc,
but the back of it wasn't It wasn't a complete disc.
It was kind of flat. Well, Clay was saying, these
discs were sort of like that, only it was like
a bite out of the back. So and I remember
thinking that that reminded me of the Kenneth Arnold drawing
because it's not commonly known. And so when Clay described
it or mentioned it to me, I thought, well, you know,
that's a little convincing to me as a skeptic. You know,
where would you have gotten this? And so he saw
that these these partial discs would come and they would
hover over the runway lights, and he said there were
these little creatures and he couldn't see them clearly enough
to you know, give any details, but he said they
were like they the way they were moving, he said
it reminded him of the old fashioned gas stations where
the service attendant would come out and pump your gas
and wipe your windshield and check your oil and all that.
He said, it was like these ships were hovering over
the runway lights and these service guys were doing whatever
they do. And he said, oh my god, they're refueling
off of my electricity out here on the run and
he got really upset. He got pissed off. And the
weirder I mean, I keep saying the weirdest part, but
it's all weird. He said, there was this other creature
that appeared to be the supervisor. And he said it
was about fifteen feet tall, gauging the height by the
height of the runway lights and how much higher this
thing was. He said it was real long legs, and
that head was like a giant Oreo cookie and he said,
so it was round, but it was flat. And he
said that this thing seemed to be like the boss
or the supervisor. And he said it would come over
to these other little guys who were servicing the ships
that were apparently refueling the way he interpreted it, and
he said the Oreo cookie guy would kind of lean
over as if to inspect their work, and he's looking
at this thing and thinking, how in the world are
you not falling over? Because you've got this giant head
and these spindley legs and you know, And so when
I hear a story like this, I'm thinking, how do
you if this isn't true? How do you make this up?
You know?
Speaker 1: It's it's so, what happened with the the investigation into
was gas being leaked or something like that? Was did
you did that all check out? Like it was it? Well?
Do you really think it was paranormal?
Speaker 2: Well? I don't know. And that's something that my team
is planning on looking into. We've got now we've got
technology drones and things like that, and sensors that can
detect different gases and things like that. So we're gonna
go out there and uh check it and see if
we can find a conventional explanation for it. But you know,
we're we're also gonna try to find whatever reburied out there.
Speaker 1: Can I ask you a question, this is a really
important question. Did did he ever say anything about any
military involvement? Like did he ever see you know, because
a lot of people nowadays they suffer from what we
call my labs military abductions. Uh and if it's not
a full military abduction, then sometimes it's the military working
with the aliens. Like did he ever see that that
he saw any military involvement at all, Like, you know,
it's a lot of times it can be these black ops,
not like you know, I'm not talking about like the
regular marine, you know, like I'm talking about like black ops,
like you know, something we we wouldn't know about, you know.
Speaker 2: That he did not. But at one point in the story,
as as his business situation went downhill and downhill, at
one point his shop was raided and he said it
was at least fifty law enforcement. He said, there was
the ATF, there was FBI, there were swat teams from
three different places. I don't know who all was out there,
but he said they took they didn't take everything, but
they took his computers. They took his guns. I mean,
it's Texas, we have guns here. And also he was
a licensed gun manufacturer, so had he built replicas of
antique guns and he could repair guns and things like that,
So he had a lot of ammunition and weapons out there,
and they took all of this stuff. They took his computers,
and he said that and they didn't have a warrant,
or if they did, they never showed it to him.
And they took him and never charged him. They held
him for about eight hours. He said he never got
a phone call, he never got food or water. They
just held him for about eight hours. And then when
it was all over. Uh, it took several days, but
they finally brought most of his stuff back. But he
said when he got his computers back, a lot of
his best evidence, his videos and photos of the aliens,
of the ships or the portals and you know, various things.
He said, a lot of that best evidence was gone.
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, so that makes sense. Yeah, so they must
have been watching the place, like but without him knowing.
You know, they had to have bit like they and
they can do that from like a multitude of ways
where they can have you know, they can have people
on the premises that look like they're performing like daily casks,
like workers, but merely they're like they're spoot. There's spooks undercover,
you know, and they have they'll you know, they'll they't
So I believe that one hundred and ten percent. You know,
like they're always they're always trying to they're always trying
to find out what's going on with the experiencer. It's
like if they want to know what they know, because
if they know anything about any technology, they want to
seal that up or something. It seems like her or
or or they're trying to learn a little bit more
about the phenomena themselves through the eyes of the experience er.
But did he ever say what if they questioned him?
Or like, did they ever say anything like like what
if you saw or anything like that?
Speaker 2: You know, they didn't at all. They supposedly the premise
for the raid was that an email was sent out
to all of his clients from him from his personal
email address, saying that he was going to shoot them
with an AK forty seven. And he said, you know
a lot of people have access to my computer and
to my email address. And then he thought, well, you know,
maybe it was my ex wife, because you know, she
seemed to be, I don't know, out to harm him
in some ways, so you know, but it was it
was a flimsy excuse for something that dramatic.
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, yeah, that's that's insane. That's uh, that's wow,
that's wild. So so I don't want to give you
a give it away, but I'm so excited, Like what
I mean, is this stuff still going on? Like it
is he still experiencing stuff now? Like is he still
alive and he's still like you know, like uh, still
the only stuff or what's well?
Speaker 2: Okay? So what happened was, you know, after after my
brother died, Clay and I stayed in touch and we're
both you know, I knew I couldn't I couldn't follow
my brother. I couldn't walk in his shoes and produce
a TV show or anything like that. There was no
way I could I could do that. But Clay and
I stayed in touch, and you know, he kept telling
me his stories and telling me what was going on.
But by that point he had moved out, he was
living with his mom, and so it had been in
about a year since my brother had passed away, and
you know, his family had it was it was just
totally out of the blue and we were all just
got punched by his death. We totally didn't expect it.
And it actually happened right before he was supposed to
come to Texas to interview Clay and dig up whatever
might have been buried there. And he passed away in
his sleep. So I had decided that I needed to
do something to honor Jimmy's memory. So I created a
memorial video or you know, just a remembrance of him,
and I sent it out to everybody who knew him,
and I sent it out by email to people like Clay,
and then I sent it out on Facebook so that
the people all around the world who knew him would
be able to see it and kind of share in
his life. And so, so I hadn't heard from Clay,
and I knew that he and Jim had come to
be pretty close because Jim was one of the few people.
In fact, he felt like Jim was the only person
who really understood what was going on and really appreciated
it that, you know, he could talk to Jim about
this stuff. So they had gotten pretty close. And so
when I didn't hear from him after I sent this out,
I kind of got worried. And it was a while,
you know, I didn't hear it, didn't hear and so
finally I contacted Clay's sister and I said, you know,
I haven't heard from him in a while. Is he okay?
And she said, no, he's in the hospital. He's been
in the hospital for a month. He has multiple organ
failure and he has flesh eating bacteria and if he survives,
they're going to have to cut off huge patches of
his skin. And the next day she emailed me to
tell me that he had passed away.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. So, I mean, it's almost like weird.
It's almost like they got your brother or someone something
got your brother, and then something got this guy Clay.
It almost makes me think that like something was like
trying not to get this story out. It's almost like
seems like it was very important that you got this
story out.
Speaker 2: Well, and that's you know, that's one way to look
at it. But when you when you look back at.
Speaker 1: And I'm sorry, I just wanted to say, I'm sorry.
I look at everything from a conspiracy right, So I
wasn't like I wasn't trying to allude that that something
got your brother or him. I just like I just
tend to look at things from like a.
Speaker 2: Sure, you know, I totally understand now my brother because
because it is a logical thing to think about, a
logical question to ask. And I didn't know my brother
had had heart problems and he was he had a
couple of different things, and he had conquered one of
the problems and he was really proud of it, and
he had told me about it, so everything was fine. Well,
I didn't know until after he died that he had
had a test that showed that he had had a
previous heart attack and the cardiologist wanted him to come
back in for more tests, and he said, well, I'll
just do that after I get back from Texas. So
that never happened. So I want people to know that
if you have signs that you might have you might
be prone to heart attacks, you need to go to
the doctor and get that fixed. Now, as far as
Clay's situation here, there is a mysterious component to his death,
and I won't give it away so that people who
read the book can share kind of the shock that
I felt when I got to the end and talked
to his mom and I learned something that just totally
made me go back. I mean the I call it
the record scratch moment. It was, oh my God, and
I had to go back and think through all of
the stuff that had happened, and so you know, it's
it's crazy.
Speaker 1: Didn't even give away everything that happened, like there's probably
a lot more in the book that happened there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there is so much. There was so much material
that I say was left on the cutting room floor
that that I couldn't fit in the book. So there's
got to be another book just to cover the stuff
I couldn't fit into this one. But one of the
things I learned after he died, after Clay died from
his mom, that was that when he was little, he
and his sister were little, the family went on a
trip with their travel trailer to Alaska. And so they
were on their way back from Alaska, and I think
it was in Idaho, and the mom and dad are
both too tired to drive, and they're like, let's just
pull over at this it was a historical marker or
someplace that was a wide spot in the road, and
they just, well, we'll just sleep there tonight. So they
pulled off and they're all sleeping in the travel trailer
and the mom wakes up in the middle of the
night and she says she was hearing this noise outside
and it was this kind of a clicking noise, but
she said she knew it was a conversation. It was
like there were at least two creatures out there that
were having a conversation from different spots around the travel trailer.
And she said, for whatever reason, she knew it was aliens.
And she said, I don't know why I thought that,
because I wasn't interested in aliens. It wasn't a big
deal back in the I guess it would be the sixties,
and so she but I knew right away that it
was aliens. And she said, you know, my husband got
up and he grabbed his gun. He gets out, gets
in the truck and pulls away and they speed the
heck out of there. But she said that she believed
that that night, either all of them or some of them,
at least Clay had been abducted that night. Now I
asked him many times did he think he was abducted?
And he said no, but he told me stories that
sound exactly like what happens to abductees. You know, they
wake up in strange clothes, or they wake up in
a strange place, or you know, things like that. And
he was willing. I had asked him if he would
be willing to do a hypnotic regression to see if
if there were any memories like that, and as you
know sometimes you know, those things, if they happened in childhood,
they probably continued to happen throughout your life. And with
my brother, it turned out that once he opened himself
to the possibility that he had actually been abducted, as
opposed to having these recurrent strange dreams, he started realizing
that there were occurrences that started as far back as
I think it was nineteen sixty five, when we were
all living in Connecticut and that big Northeast blackout, and
you know, he said, one of our friends, one of
my friends, had seen a UFO that night. But Jimmy
said he remembered something happening to him even earlier than that,
and he and my brother, the next brother, had seen
a UFO. They saw UFO together, and jim felt like
he had been abducted from the time he was I
don't know, maybe eight or nine, maybe ten.
Speaker 1: Wow. And did you ever have sometimes a gig falls
in family lines, did you ever have any feelings like
you had been taken it all?
Speaker 2: I did not, and I in a way, you know,
I'm kind of jealous because all three of my brothers
have seen UFOs. I have not. My mom. One night
when we were living in Connecticut. She was she woke up.
She was looking out the front window, and in the
crotch of this big oak tree, she saw this little
man dressed in patchwork leather, and she woke my dad
up and she's, you know, to come look at this
little man look sitting in the crotch of the tree.
And my dad couldn't see it. And so she's describing
this guy, this all dressed in leather and patchwork, sitting
in the crouch of the tree, and my dad couldn't
see it, couldn't see it. And my mom's like, how
can you not see that? And she described what the
little guy was doing, and my dad's like, I'm going
to go back to sleep. So he goes back to sleep.
Well years later, my mom joins the Historical Society, and
sure enough she finds out that there was this guy
they called the leather Man, who back in the seventeen hundreds,
I think, would make the circuit from New York all
the way around the Boston Post Road to Boston and
then back the north route, and he would stay at
a different house every night. He would kind of pay
his room and board by sharpening scissors and knives, and
they called him the leather Man. Now, she had no
way of knowing this back then when she saw it.
So I think my three brothers and my mom had
the gift to see things. And you had mentioned early
on do you have to have some kind of ability
to see these things? And so if that's the case
in my family, I think it would have been my brothers,
my three brothers, and my mom who had that gift,
and my dad and I did not. So but I'm
I'm open to it. I've sat out on the runway
at Clay's Airport overnight hoping that they'll come down, hoping
that the aliens will come see me, and nothing's happened
so far. But you know, we're going to try again.
We're going to keep doing it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's awesome. This has been amazing. I can put
a link for the book in the description too. But
did you want to tell everybody where they can find
the book or find you? And thank you so much
for doing this? This was fun?
Speaker 2: Well, well, thank you. Yeah, the book is available on
Amazon right now. We're we've got the ebook and the paperback.
We're working on the production for the for the audiobook.
For everybody like me who likes to listen while we're driving,
we're walking, and uh, you can find you can find
me through the website. This was my brother's website that
I resurrected after he passed away. Uh, it's not the same.
We lost a lot of stuff, but we kept the
domain name. So it's experiencers dot com with an x
experiencers dot com. And you can email me through that
website as well. And and you can find a link
a direct link to the book there, because sometimes if
you if you just try to google it, you don't
always find it. So you have a direct link on
the website.
Speaker 1: Okay, and just go to experiencers dot com. Like, I'll
put that link in the description. And thank you so much.
This was fascinating. This is a really fun This was
a really fun case.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. This was a good interview. Thank you
so much.
Speaker 1: All Right, I'll send you a when I uploaded.
Speaker 2: Cool awesome.
Speaker 1: I have a good night.