WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.080 --> 00:00:05.919 This is Michael Connelly and you're listening to Killer in 2 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:11.160 the Code Solving the Black Dalia and Zodiac cases. Today, 3 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:13.839 we're going to follow our first six episodes with a 4 00:00:13.960 --> 00:00:19.719 roundtable discussion with the principal investigators on this these cases 5 00:00:20.039 --> 00:00:24.120 and answer questions that have come into our podcast website, 6 00:00:24.160 --> 00:00:28.679 which is Killerinnecode dot Com. With me today is Alex Baber, 7 00:00:28.760 --> 00:00:32.640 who started this whole thing when he cracked the Z 8 00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:36.920 thirteen code left behind by the Zodiac Killer fifty some 9 00:00:37.119 --> 00:00:43.000 years ago. And veteran homicide investigators Mitsi Roberts, who at 10 00:00:43.000 --> 00:00:47.240 one time before her retirement, ran the cold case unit 11 00:00:47.399 --> 00:00:51.200 for the Los Angeles Police Department of which the Black 12 00:00:51.280 --> 00:00:53.759 Dallia case was assigned. It was her case for about 13 00:00:53.759 --> 00:00:58.799 fifteen sixteen years. And another cold case detective, Rick Jackson, 14 00:00:58.880 --> 00:01:03.399 who is veteran of the LAPD homicide squads, including the 15 00:01:03.399 --> 00:01:06.599 cold case squad, and now works as a cold case 16 00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:10.719 investigator for the San Mateo County share u's office up 17 00:01:10.760 --> 00:01:15.519 in northern California. So welcome everybody, and we know we 18 00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:18.159 have limited time here, so we're going to start going 19 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:21.319 through the questions and see how many we can get answered. 20 00:01:21.519 --> 00:01:24.519 So let's start with this first one. This one is 21 00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:28.640 very germane to what we've been trying to do. But 22 00:01:28.879 --> 00:01:32.000 probably the question we're getting the most to our website 23 00:01:32.120 --> 00:01:37.640 is this, Have any law enforcement organizations contacted you about 24 00:01:37.640 --> 00:01:42.519 the podcast? We've gathered a lot of circumstantial evidence and 25 00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:46.280 even some physical evidence, and I think it's a good question, 26 00:01:46.400 --> 00:01:48.239 what's going to happen with all this or is it 27 00:01:48.319 --> 00:01:51.959 just going to end up in a podcast? Rick, you 28 00:01:51.959 --> 00:01:53.159 want to start with that one. 29 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:57.920 Sure, in reality, we have no control over where this 30 00:01:58.040 --> 00:02:03.159 goes once we make notifications and communicate with law enforcement. 31 00:02:03.480 --> 00:02:07.200 I have talked to a detective from LAPD who has 32 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:10.240 been assigned to look into it. To what degree, I 33 00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:13.280 don't know. They've made it known that they're not going 34 00:02:13.319 --> 00:02:17.080 to provide us with information. They are taking information for 35 00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:20.800 us to team what is necessary to fall upon and 36 00:02:20.919 --> 00:02:23.960 make determination whether this is a viable suspect or not. 37 00:02:24.199 --> 00:02:27.800 I've also talked with the San Francisco Police Department to 38 00:02:27.879 --> 00:02:32.800 the detective that is technically assigned to the Zodiac case 39 00:02:32.840 --> 00:02:37.240 that occurred in San Francisco, and basically it was the 40 00:02:37.280 --> 00:02:40.560 same thing. They are moving their investigation as they feel 41 00:02:40.840 --> 00:02:45.120 is appropriate. Again, not sharing with us what they are doing, 42 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:49.840 which is understandable from you know, we're no longer sworn 43 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:55.840 law enforcement officers working under jurisdiction of any place that 44 00:02:56.080 --> 00:02:59.719 has the jurisdiction over these cases, so we shouldn't be 45 00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:04.719 given information. So again it's outside of our control. But 46 00:03:04.759 --> 00:03:07.400 I do think they will look at it and make 47 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:10.680 up determination. I think they're sufficient evidence for them to 48 00:03:10.759 --> 00:03:14.199 look at these cases and move forward to the extent 49 00:03:14.240 --> 00:03:18.439 where they can either definitely include him as the suspect, 50 00:03:18.879 --> 00:03:22.680 it can eliminate him if that's what it shows, which 51 00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:26.919 I don't think will happen, or just combine it with 52 00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:29.719 all the other theories and not make a determination on 53 00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:30.400 any of them. 54 00:03:31.360 --> 00:03:35.520 Anybody want to add anything. I like that the fact 55 00:03:35.560 --> 00:03:36.520 that I was. 56 00:03:36.439 --> 00:03:42.000 The first individual in decades to be requested to show 57 00:03:42.120 --> 00:03:45.360 in NAPA or any jurisdiction in North Bay to do 58 00:03:45.400 --> 00:03:50.719 a presentation with San Francisco PD, Solano County Sheriff's Department, 59 00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:54.719 as well as representatives of NAPA Sheriff's Department or office, 60 00:03:54.919 --> 00:04:00.639 and FBI for me to be requested to fly from 61 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:04.120 the East Coast to California to do a presentation between 62 00:04:05.159 --> 00:04:08.639 four of the five involved jurisdictions from the original case 63 00:04:09.319 --> 00:04:10.599 makes a statement in itself. 64 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:15.000 Yeah, And I'd just like to add that the fact 65 00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:20.959 that you're not hearing a lot about law enforcement being involved. 66 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:24.360 Hearing from the law enforcement side is just the nature 67 00:04:24.399 --> 00:04:25.120 of this case. 68 00:04:25.519 --> 00:04:28.240 Like I've said many times when I've had it, it's 69 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:29.319 an ancillary case. 70 00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:35.600 Their main duties are more current homicides and cold cases. 71 00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:39.600 And so just because we're not hearing anything from law 72 00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:42.920 enforcement doesn't mean that they're not looking into it and 73 00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:48.519 investigating the evidence that we've given to them and the 74 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:49.959 evidence that's in the podcast. 75 00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:54.920 I should also add that they have asked for contact 76 00:04:54.959 --> 00:04:59.720 information from certain people that are pertinent people in the 77 00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:04.399 case as we explain to them the particulars of our investigation. 78 00:05:05.399 --> 00:05:09.000 And I will add a reminder here the suspect Alex 79 00:05:09.079 --> 00:05:13.000 has identified died in nineteen ninety three. So while all 80 00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:16.519 these law enforcement agencies would like to solve these crimes 81 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:20.199 and say case closed, they are duty bound to pursue 82 00:05:20.199 --> 00:05:24.040 cases where there are viable suspects out there, you know, 83 00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:28.079 live killers who need to be brought to justice. With 84 00:05:28.199 --> 00:05:31.240 this case and this suspect, that is not going to 85 00:05:31.279 --> 00:05:35.199 happen as sad and disappointing as that is. So that 86 00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:38.199 puts this investigation on a level of being worked when 87 00:05:38.199 --> 00:05:40.959 it can be worked, and when you consider a big 88 00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:44.279 city like Los Angeles, when is there not a new 89 00:05:44.360 --> 00:05:47.439 case to be worked and a killer out there somewhere 90 00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:54.360 on the loose. Okay, let's move on. We hope that 91 00:05:54.439 --> 00:05:59.000 you've already listened to the first six episodes of this podcast. 92 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:04.399 But just very brief Alex broke z thirteen. It's also 93 00:06:04.519 --> 00:06:07.839 known as my Name Is. It's where the Zodiac claimed 94 00:06:07.879 --> 00:06:11.519 he had put his name into a cipher And the 95 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:14.480 name Alex came up with and which has been verified 96 00:06:14.519 --> 00:06:18.240 by some of the top cryptographers in the world, was 97 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:23.120 Marvin Merrill. Further investigation revealed that was an alias for 98 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:25.839 a man named Marvin Margolis, who was one of the 99 00:06:25.879 --> 00:06:29.560 prime suspects in the Black Dahia case. And that's how 100 00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:33.720 we we linked these cases. And a question that has 101 00:06:33.759 --> 00:06:38.199 come in largely because of internet chatter. I don't know 102 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:42.680 what else to call it, where people said no Margolis 103 00:06:42.759 --> 00:06:46.160 was cleared by the LAPD way back in nineteen forty seven, 104 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:50.480 the year of the Black Dahia murder. By the way, 105 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:53.839 Black Dahlia is the moniker. I guess you call it 106 00:06:53.879 --> 00:06:57.680 for Elizabeth Short the victim, and so let's have that 107 00:06:57.759 --> 00:07:02.160 question answered here, hopefully and for all. Was Margo Is 108 00:07:02.279 --> 00:07:07.240 cleared or not by the LAPD MIXI you had this 109 00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:10.639 case for a while, You're probably more familiar with it 110 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:14.399 than anybody possibly in the world. What's your answer to 111 00:07:14.439 --> 00:07:14.920 that question? 112 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:20.800 Not to my satisfaction, and the there's just a lot 113 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:24.399 of conflicting information, a lot of well because of this, 114 00:07:24.439 --> 00:07:27.480 he was cleared, because of his alibi that his wife supported, 115 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:32.120 he was cleared, But the timeline just doesn't it doesn't 116 00:07:32.360 --> 00:07:35.680 make sense to me with the evidence, with the grand jury, 117 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:39.959 with the LAPD still looking for him after the grand jury, 118 00:07:40.360 --> 00:07:45.519 because the lead investigator had said that he couldn't clear him, 119 00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:47.040 nor could he include him. 120 00:07:47.319 --> 00:07:50.560 And that's just more evidence to me of what an. 121 00:07:50.399 --> 00:07:55.240 Elusive type of suspect Marvin Margolis was and that they 122 00:07:55.399 --> 00:07:59.639 just there's not enough information that they have or the 123 00:07:59.680 --> 00:08:01.720 acts to him to make that determination. 124 00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:06.000 The benefit that I have with maybe a. 125 00:08:05.959 --> 00:08:08.920 Handful of individuals is I had access to the files 126 00:08:08.920 --> 00:08:12.560 for fifteen years, and I've scoured through those files, not 127 00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:15.560 just the DA files, but the entire Black Value files, 128 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:17.839 as well as all the stuff that's out on the 129 00:08:17.839 --> 00:08:22.199 Internet that I have access to. And all I can 130 00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:26.000 say is, I'm not satisfied that he is cleared. 131 00:08:26.439 --> 00:08:27.319 And even if you. 132 00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:30.959 Take all of that into consideration and you say yes, 133 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:34.200 the investigators in the you know, in the late forties 134 00:08:34.279 --> 00:08:34.840 cleared him. 135 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:37.559 He had an alibi and they cleared him. 136 00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:42.320 I've worked many cases where people lie, people live for people. 137 00:08:42.679 --> 00:08:46.240 You're not really one hundred percent able to verify the alibi, 138 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:49.320 and so they take him for his word and they 139 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:51.480 move on to the next because that happened a lot 140 00:08:51.480 --> 00:08:54.519 in this case. Take somebody's you know, check them out 141 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:57.519 the list, and move to the next. And it's kind 142 00:08:57.519 --> 00:09:01.080 of what is so fascinating about these cases all these 143 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:07.840 years later is that suspects like Leslie, Dillon and Hodell, 144 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:10.960 all these suspects that keep coming out at one point 145 00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:16.320 were somewhat cleared or had alibised or but they're still there. 146 00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:20.720 They're still in the files, and there's still, at least 147 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:23.759 for the Internet solution and stuff that everybody has a 148 00:09:23.799 --> 00:09:24.279 theory of. 149 00:09:24.679 --> 00:09:28.200 Who it could be and why they weren't cleared sufficiently. 150 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:31.639 And that's the nature of the beasts of this case. 151 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:35.399 All I can say is I've had access to the 152 00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:38.360 files for fifteen years, all of the files, and I'm 153 00:09:38.399 --> 00:09:43.000 not convinced that Marvin Merrill was cleared. 154 00:09:44.519 --> 00:09:47.559 And I will add on to that. And Mitzi briefly 155 00:09:47.639 --> 00:09:51.279 referred to one of the lead detectives, but Finest Brown 156 00:09:51.600 --> 00:09:56.720 was a Homicide Division detective, a veteran detective, and he 157 00:09:56.960 --> 00:09:59.320 was one of the two leads on the Black Dalua 158 00:09:59.399 --> 00:10:02.600 case and in the grand jury in the nineteen fifty 159 00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:10.360 time period. He definitively said, as Mitzi referenced that he 160 00:10:10.440 --> 00:10:13.519 can include him because there was insufficient evidence to move 161 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:19.559 forward at that time. But he definitely was not eliminated 162 00:10:19.639 --> 00:10:23.679 as a suspect. And there are other people that were 163 00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:27.639 associated with the investigation from either LAPD or the DA's 164 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:32.840 office that said he always remained there that person's key 165 00:10:33.960 --> 00:10:37.879 focus from early on because of their person relationship, he 166 00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:41.879 should have been a major target of the investigation, not 167 00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:44.000 just one of twenty one. I mean, he was the 168 00:10:44.039 --> 00:10:46.679 one that had a relationship with or lived with her. 169 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:49.840 And we all know, you know the percentage of times 170 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:55.879 that relationships or people known to the other person are 171 00:10:56.159 --> 00:10:59.120 the killer and the victim. It's just the way it 172 00:10:59.159 --> 00:11:02.720 goes those to be eliminated. And he definitely wasn't eliminated 173 00:11:02.840 --> 00:11:04.279 by the detectives then. 174 00:11:04.919 --> 00:11:08.480 Yes, And he when he was initially interviewed, he lied. 175 00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:11.840 He lied to the detectives, which they kind of gave 176 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:14.159 him a pass on that, and I think it was 177 00:11:14.200 --> 00:11:16.799 a I think it was a soft pass. I think 178 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:20.159 that you have to take that more into consideration and 179 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:21.679 to say, well, if he's lying. 180 00:11:21.480 --> 00:11:25.200 About this, what else is he lying about? And who 181 00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:29.320 else maybe be a part of that? And so for 182 00:11:29.399 --> 00:11:35.799 all those reasons, I don't think that he. 183 00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:36.799 Was eliminated back then and can be eliminated now. 184 00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:41.080 And we all know alibi is given by people close 185 00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:47.240 to somebody, specifically a wife, a new wife has to 186 00:11:47.240 --> 00:11:52.879 be looked at with very close eyes to see if 187 00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:56.759 that's a legitimate other than just her word. There's nothing 188 00:11:56.799 --> 00:11:59.320 else other than her word that's got to be looked at. 189 00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:03.559 And I've handled cases one recently where I work now, 190 00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:11.320 where the eventual suspect was eliminated based on things that 191 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:15.200 happened within days of the murder, and thirty something years later, 192 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:18.039 we began looking at it and I just could not 193 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:21.240 get past the fact that this is too good of 194 00:12:21.240 --> 00:12:26.399 a suspect, not only in her visual appearance and the 195 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:29.159 likeness to the composite, but in a very unique car 196 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:34.039 that she had access to, and eventually, thirty five years later, 197 00:12:34.200 --> 00:12:37.360 she was definitively identified as a suspect, not only through 198 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:40.720 a confession but some of her general writings that she 199 00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:44.399 had done about shooting the victim. 200 00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:48.240 It happens all the time, Alex. You want to say something, Yeah, 201 00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:48.840 I want. 202 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:50.799 To put a cherry on top of her. Guys, there's 203 00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:53.279 this myth of a missing week. If that's true, then 204 00:12:53.320 --> 00:12:56.440 we can eliminate more than Markles as a suspect based 205 00:12:56.480 --> 00:12:59.399 on his school attendance and his employment at that time. 206 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:02.720 He's given to alibis by dream mate Bill Robinson that 207 00:13:02.840 --> 00:13:05.000 he lives with and new Elizabeth Short as well as 208 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:08.240 his wife will be married approximately a month after Elizabeth 209 00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:11.639 Short Lefting that being said, we do also know that 210 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:15.559 Alficher McBride had an account of Elizabeth Short coming to 211 00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:18.960 her for protection within hours of her murder, and it's 212 00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:22.720 verified that she confirmed Elizabeth Short's body, not photographs her 213 00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:25.360 body as being that of the woman that she spoke to. 214 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:28.519 So this surpasses the belief that she saw photographs. A 215 00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:30.960 few hours later came back and said, look, now I'm 216 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:33.960 dubious about my original account. It might be somebody different. 217 00:13:34.200 --> 00:13:35.679 Because once you go down and you view the body 218 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:39.360 and you confirm that that's etchton Stone. So then you 219 00:13:39.399 --> 00:13:42.399 move forward to the granaduriy inquest and you have one 220 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:45.120 suspect and one suspect only that they tried to track 221 00:13:45.240 --> 00:13:48.679 down outside of California, and that's Marvin Margolis in Chicago. 222 00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:50.679 We have accounts of letters where they reach out to 223 00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:53.039 Chicago pet repeatedly. They send him out to his in 224 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:56.000 law's house. There's residents. They're trying to hunt this guy down. 225 00:13:56.440 --> 00:13:59.639 Nobody else of the suspects was ever printed down in 226 00:13:59.679 --> 00:14:03.240 that manner. Ever, in the closing statement guys, the very 227 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:08.399 last document under oath DA or deput DA, Vick says, 228 00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:11.639 if we allow Marvin Margolis to know outside of these 229 00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:14.320 four walls that were attempting to locate him, he may 230 00:14:14.360 --> 00:14:18.039 elude justice forever. So that right there is a statement 231 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:18.919 in himself as well. 232 00:14:19.559 --> 00:14:22.720 Yeah, I find that very at the very end of 233 00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:28.080 the grand jury, that kind of instruction. Basically, then nothing 234 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:32.440 leaves these four walls about this guy is very telling. 235 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:36.000 And there's another thing I just want to throw in. 236 00:14:36.039 --> 00:14:39.240 I just finished reading a book called Black Dalle It 237 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:43.159 just came out by an author named William Mann, and 238 00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:46.919 he also calls Margolis the last man standing in terms 239 00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:51.919 he methodically knocks down all the other suspects and says 240 00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:54.360 Margolis is the last man standing. And one of the 241 00:14:54.399 --> 00:14:57.080 things he says, which I don't think we've come across, 242 00:14:57.200 --> 00:15:01.519 or Alex maybe you can confirm, is that the LAPD 243 00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:04.879 never pulled his military records. It was the grand jury 244 00:15:04.919 --> 00:15:08.320 that did. And so when they cleared them, they didn't 245 00:15:08.360 --> 00:15:12.799 know anything about him getting a fifty percent reduced capacity 246 00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:17.360 situation with him. They didn't know anything about the psychology 247 00:15:17.799 --> 00:15:21.919 the psychologists who interviewed him and talked about his aggression 248 00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:26.360 and his mindset. And you know, if I think at 249 00:15:26.360 --> 00:15:33.159 Finnis Brown and his partner knew this stuff, they would 250 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:36.879 have never cleared him in any way because this guy 251 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:40.759 just he fit that profile right off the bat. 252 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:43.720 May add to that real quick, Michael. Also, and everything 253 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:45.559 is when they didn't pull his notary record, they didn't 254 00:15:45.559 --> 00:15:48.879 realize that he was attached to Marine Division as a 255 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:51.279 naval Coreman, and we know that they were looking for 256 00:15:51.399 --> 00:15:55.799 marine in particular following her murder, and he lies and 257 00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:57.879 in the files he claims to be in the Army, 258 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:01.639 not the Navy, not the Marine Corps, in the Army. 259 00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:07.240 That's in the report, but that is often overlooked when 260 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:08.440 people do their investigation. 261 00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:12.360 Okay, by the way, I'm going to talk to William 262 00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:17.200 Mann about his book and his investigation later down the 263 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:18.279 line in our podcast. 264 00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:22.639 And I also want to mention that when we first 265 00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:25.360 heard about Man's book coming out towards the latter part 266 00:16:25.399 --> 00:16:31.919 of twenty twenty five, showed that he had paid Margolis 267 00:16:31.960 --> 00:16:36.399 as the likely suspect or as the suspect, and as 268 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:40.240 had Alex in his investigative work. So the fact that 269 00:16:40.279 --> 00:16:44.559 these two people, Man and Baber, had no connection to 270 00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:47.639 each other, didn't know what the other was doing, and 271 00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:51.120 they both came to the same conclusion with well researched 272 00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:57.879 information kind of supports the fact that even beyond those 273 00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:03.440 two people's investigations, that he is likely the suspect. And 274 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:07.960 that's let alone all the information that we've recovered that 275 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:13.440 is great circumstantial evidence linking Merril Margolis. 276 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:17.519 I just kind of want to add to that, it's 277 00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:21.640 it's funny that people are so sort of fast to 278 00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:26.119 push that narrative that he was cleared during the initial investigation, 279 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:30.000 which means that all of this information that Alex has 280 00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:34.880 come up with today and that we verified with world 281 00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:39.880 renowned experts, we're just supposed to ignore because he was 282 00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:43.119 eliminated back in. 283 00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:43.920 Nineteen forty seven. 284 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:48.039 And that just doesn't make sense as an investigator that 285 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:54.440 you would ignore compelling evidence on an elimination that we 286 00:17:54.519 --> 00:17:55.519 really can't improve. 287 00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:59.400 This is kind of related, so sticking with the black 288 00:17:59.480 --> 00:18:04.480 value here, especially you two homicide detectives, your view of 289 00:18:04.519 --> 00:18:07.079 this and I, MITCHI, I know you've like looked through 290 00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:10.359 the four drawers of the cabinet and we've all seen 291 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:15.759 the FBI files and the Grand Jewty flowles. What is 292 00:18:15.799 --> 00:18:19.559 your view of this investigation? And obviously things are different now, 293 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:22.799 technology is way ahead of time and so forth. But 294 00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:26.960 there's this lure out there that this was a state 295 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:31.039 of the art investigation. And I think if it was, 296 00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:34.519 you know, the police chief would not have called for 297 00:18:34.599 --> 00:18:38.319 a grand jury to refocus the case. I think if 298 00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:41.799 it was, they might have at least charged somebody, But 299 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:45.240 no one was ever charged. No one was ever convicted 300 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:48.720 of this crime. What is there a way to reach 301 00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:52.960 back almost eighty years and say this was a solid investigation. 302 00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:57.960 I know it deals with some detectives who are pretty famous, 303 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:02.559 But I, as someone who's not a detective and who 304 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:07.039 is complete amateur and probably doesn't know what I'm talking about, 305 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:10.680 I see the string of things that were missed and 306 00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:14.920 ultimately led to the grand jury kind of taking over 307 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:15.599 this case. 308 00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:20.599 What I can say about that is that, yes, the 309 00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:26.559 detectives at the time have very good reputations as smart, dedicated, 310 00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:32.359 hard working detectives. There is an abundance of investigative material. 311 00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:35.400 There's no doubt that there was heart and that there 312 00:19:35.559 --> 00:19:39.640 was just heart and soul, and they put everything into 313 00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:44.880 this investigation. But knowing how cases like this kind of 314 00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:49.200 get away from an investigator, you're never prepared in a 315 00:19:49.240 --> 00:19:53.880 case like this that it's a gruesome case and you're 316 00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:56.480 going to go in with it and give it all 317 00:19:56.519 --> 00:20:00.759 your investigators and give it everything that you have. But 318 00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:03.599 you're never prepared for the media to pick up on 319 00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:06.559 a case like this and just take it and run. 320 00:20:06.920 --> 00:20:09.319 And that's when a case like this can get away 321 00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:13.680 from you. And you're so busy and the department is 322 00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:20.799 so busy chasing down now leads from crank jobs and 323 00:20:20.920 --> 00:20:25.400 nuts and legitimate people and at the same time trying 324 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:29.680 to just work the case that it can get away 325 00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:33.160 from you quickly and things there can be shortcuts made, 326 00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:37.680 or things can just get dropped because if anything, and 327 00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:41.240 just by reading and go and having access to those files, 328 00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:45.119 I can tell you that it would now if we 329 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:47.880 had a murder like that, it would be worked completely different. 330 00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:50.519 It would be a ginormous task where so there would 331 00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:54.720 be the entire division in Robert Homicide would be would 332 00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:58.920 be given some role in that investigation, and it would 333 00:20:58.920 --> 00:21:02.920 be worked until it was so And I can tell 334 00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:06.240 you that that didn't happen back then. You know, there 335 00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:09.160 were a handful of detectives on it, and they pushed 336 00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:12.440 the case for initially for you know, and then it 337 00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:17.680 kind of just whittled down to the main investigators assigned 338 00:21:17.720 --> 00:21:22.200 to the case. And so although I can't fault their investigation, 339 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:27.680 because I do think they worked very diligently and hard, it. 340 00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:28.759 Seems to me that. 341 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:34.759 Just the immense amount of attention from the media outside 342 00:21:34.759 --> 00:21:38.200 from the public, that this case got away from them. 343 00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:41.960 And what I'll say about it is, you know, the 344 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:46.200 new chief of police came in William Wharton in nineteen 345 00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:51.000 forty nine, and I can guarantee you, other than just 346 00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:54.920 looking at the overall overall operation of the police department 347 00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:57.440 as a new chief, one of the first things he 348 00:21:57.559 --> 00:22:00.440 was going to do would want to do is get 349 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:04.000 a briefing on this case that had massive public interest, 350 00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:06.240 a lot of people working on it. 351 00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:07.400 UH. 352 00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:14.119 And obviously what he heard he did not like, because 353 00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:17.880 there is a whole news article about him saying that 354 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:21.079 he felt it was a bungled investigation and it needed 355 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:24.119 a new start, and he was the one that initiated 356 00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:27.240 the call to start a grand jury and kind of 357 00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:31.480 start from scratch and move forward through the through the 358 00:22:31.480 --> 00:22:35.680 evidence and through the UH the investigative steps that had 359 00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:38.160 already been taken, and maybe send it in a new direction. 360 00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:42.319 So obviously he wasn't happy with it for whatever reason. 361 00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:46.240 But he did in fact call it a quote unquote 362 00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:49.519 bungled investigation, So that's that's key. 363 00:22:50.359 --> 00:22:52.680 I just wanted to mention that that some of these 364 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:56.200 documents that we're talking about, they'll they'll be available on 365 00:22:56.759 --> 00:22:59.319 killeringnecode dot com. I just want to add too. 366 00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:03.480 Whenever the grand injury closed out, Detective Frank P. Jamison 367 00:23:03.559 --> 00:23:07.480 for the DA's office, his last comment on his report, 368 00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:11.960 his personal report was that he advised the incoming grand 369 00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:15.519 jury to pick up the case again because he felt 370 00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:19.599 that they were close to identifying and getting some justice 371 00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:23.160 for Elizabeth Short and in the local newspaper articles, he 372 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:27.680 actually dav is quoted as stating that the original investigation 373 00:23:28.279 --> 00:23:32.400 was subpar by his standards, as well as the other investigators. 374 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:35.839 By the way, I'm not giving the names of the 375 00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:40.720 people who sending these questions because we got many that 376 00:23:40.759 --> 00:23:42.640 are the same, so I'd have to give a whole 377 00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:45.759 list of names. So sorry about that if you're not 378 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:48.480 getting credit for your question. But here's a one word 379 00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:51.359 for word that came in. Can you please address the 380 00:23:51.480 --> 00:23:54.920 elephant in the room that many on the internet are 381 00:23:55.039 --> 00:24:00.960 firmly convinced Arthur Lee Allen was the zodiacc Alex warning 382 00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:03.519 to take that one all right. 383 00:24:03.559 --> 00:24:05.599 So from the moment the movie was released in two 384 00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:08.559 thousand and seven, I remember the talk show, one of 385 00:24:08.599 --> 00:24:12.640 the leading talk shows, bringing in Jake Gildenhall as well 386 00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:16.319 as the individual that played Tashie on screen, which is 387 00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:18.920 Mark Bruffalo, And they said, are the audience is gonna 388 00:24:18.920 --> 00:24:22.000 be pissed when they leave the theater, that they're gonna 389 00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:24.279 believe that Arthur Lee Allen's is Zodiac even though he's not. 390 00:24:25.079 --> 00:24:27.079 And this interview is on YouTube if you get a 391 00:24:27.160 --> 00:24:29.319 chance to watch it, and they both chuckle a little 392 00:24:29.319 --> 00:24:32.240 bit and they're like, we assume. So with that being said, 393 00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:34.200 the movie two thousand and seven was based on Robert 394 00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:37.279 Graysmith's book that was released initially nineteen eighty six, revised 395 00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:40.559 and released in twenty eleven twenty twelve, and it points 396 00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:43.680 to Arthur Lee Allen, it's about as much fiction as 397 00:24:43.720 --> 00:24:47.200 it is nonfiction, to be honest with you. And that 398 00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:51.839 being said, to get down to the legal aspect of this, 399 00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:55.880 Mark Lee Allen was cleared by three of the top 400 00:24:55.880 --> 00:25:00.559 five forensic categories, that being handwriting which is the least 401 00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:05.519