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<v Speaker 1>All right. I apologize because as we were beginning to

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<v Speaker 1>end the discussion, the internet cut out and I did

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<v Speaker 1>not get to hear our druid guests arguments and position.

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<v Speaker 1>He thinks that I was silent, had nothing to say,

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<v Speaker 1>but it was my connection. So I wanted to reset

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<v Speaker 1>the conversation. And we're going to start a whole new

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<v Speaker 1>chat for Islam, Catholicism, evangelicalism, liberalism, atheism. We're going to

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<v Speaker 1>maybe move away from all the dismensationless stuff from earlier

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<v Speaker 1>and go ahead and state what you were saying earlier.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you hear me? Now? Can you you hear me? Good?

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<v Speaker 2>You need to bring up a Catholic, a Muslim, and

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<v Speaker 2>a evangelical and a liberal and an atheist.

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<v Speaker 1>For a real debate. Do you want to make your

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<v Speaker 1>druid arguments or not? So what's your question? I didn't

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<v Speaker 1>hear the stuff you said when the X space cut out?

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<v Speaker 1>So what do is your argument for druidism?

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<v Speaker 2>This has no basis, So there's no argument on anything.

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<v Speaker 1>What do you want me to say?

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<v Speaker 3>Like?

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<v Speaker 1>What what are you trolling? You're the one that said

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<v Speaker 1>that you wanted to talk about druid stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I wanted to talk to other peoples and their religion.

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<v Speaker 1>Now you're here to debate me or you're just wasting

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<v Speaker 1>everyone's time, okay, So ask me a question. Then why

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<v Speaker 1>should we believe Druidism? I'm not asking you to believe

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<v Speaker 1>in anything. Yeah, are you here to debate or not?

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<v Speaker 1>Why did you waste everybody's time? I made this space

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<v Speaker 1>to come back and have this chat with you, and

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<v Speaker 1>you're just wasting everybody's time. So what's the jew it?

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<v Speaker 1>From what you think? What is the jod the indigenous

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<v Speaker 1>religion of the British Isles British Isles, no, okay, Irish

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<v Speaker 1>Scottish Isles, hebrides yeah more so okay? So and is

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<v Speaker 1>that true or what? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>They had their gods like the two Atadi Denan and

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<v Speaker 2>then there's the Norse, right, the pantheon of the Norse.

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<v Speaker 1>So oh dan freya? Oh that? And you ascribe to

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<v Speaker 1>this as true or not? I do because it's my creator? Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>How do you know that that's your creator? Your creator's

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<v Speaker 1>plural or creator creators, So it's plural. And how do

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<v Speaker 1>you know that this religion is true?

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<v Speaker 2>Because there are four winds? Right, there are four different

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<v Speaker 2>places surrounding our So you're.

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<v Speaker 1>An insane person. You're wasting everyone's time. Thank you, good job.

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<v Speaker 1>So the religion is true because there's four winds. You

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<v Speaker 1>can't make this up. I've made this space because I

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to have a discussion with a quote druid and

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<v Speaker 1>he's literally just wasted everyone's time. Lamia. By the way,

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<v Speaker 1>he sounded drunk.

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<v Speaker 4>So Lamia, Hey, this is his wife. Actually have a question. Okay,

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<v Speaker 4>So Matthew eleven one through eleven, does this openly admit?

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<v Speaker 4>John the Baptist had doubt and yeah, just questions.

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<v Speaker 1>You read the specific passage. I'm in the bathtub, so

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<v Speaker 1>I don't have it in front of me.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh God, on one second, one second?

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<v Speaker 1>Are you talking about the passes where it says that

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<v Speaker 1>whether he is a messiah or not, he's not sure?

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<v Speaker 3>Uh?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah. So after Jesus had finished instructing his twelve disciples,

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<v Speaker 4>he went on from there to teach and preach in

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<v Speaker 4>the towns of Galilee. When John, who wasn't in prison,

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<v Speaker 4>heard about the deeds of the Messigh, he sent his

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<v Speaker 4>disciples to ask him, are you the one who is

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<v Speaker 4>to come or should we expect someone else? Jesus replied,

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<v Speaker 4>go back and report to John what you hear and see.

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<v Speaker 4>The blind receives sight, the lame walk, those who have

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<v Speaker 4>leprosy are cleansed. The deaf here the dead arrays, and

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<v Speaker 4>the good news is proclaimed to the poor. Blesses anyone

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<v Speaker 4>who does not stumble on account of me. As John's

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<v Speaker 4>disciples were leaving, Jesus began to speak to the crowd

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<v Speaker 4>about John. What did you go out into the wilderness

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<v Speaker 4>to see a reed swayed by the wind? If not,

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<v Speaker 4>what did you go out to see a man dressed

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<v Speaker 4>in fine clothes? No, those who wear fine clothes are

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<v Speaker 4>king's palaces. In king's palaces, then what did you go

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<v Speaker 4>out to see a prophet? Yes, I tell you, and

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<v Speaker 4>more than a prophet, this is the one about whom

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<v Speaker 4>it is written, I will send my messenger ahead of you,

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<v Speaker 4>who will prepare your wife before you.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, So, most of the Apostles, many of the Jews,

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<v Speaker 1>and then people who first heard Christ's message when he

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<v Speaker 1>began to preach, they were not sure about the totality

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<v Speaker 1>of what his mission was. So many of them did

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<v Speaker 1>not know or they didn't understand, that he was going

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<v Speaker 1>to die and to resurrect if you read Luke twenty four,

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<v Speaker 1>Jesus then later explains all of these things to them

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<v Speaker 1>and says and he brings them to their remembrance. So

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<v Speaker 1>there is not that he doubted, It's just that they

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<v Speaker 1>weren't sure what the whole plan was.

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<v Speaker 4>So for mind, like when I read it, I believe

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<v Speaker 4>that it would be doubt, But like, what do you

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<v Speaker 4>think that's meaning? Like in that message?

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<v Speaker 1>Literally what I just said? Did you not hear what

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<v Speaker 1>I said? Luke twenty four and other passages explained the

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<v Speaker 1>context as to progressive revelation. So, for example, in Matthew sixteen,

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<v Speaker 1>when Jesus confesses that Peter is the son of God,

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<v Speaker 1>Jesus rewards him and says, blessed are you Simon Barjona

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<v Speaker 1>because you confess this right. The other disciples had not

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<v Speaker 1>yet figured out his divine status, although they might have

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<v Speaker 1>suspected it. So that doesn't equate to doubt. It equates

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<v Speaker 1>to the unsurety as to what exactly the Messiah was

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<v Speaker 1>going to do do Because even though many Jews believed

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<v Speaker 1>in a Messiah, they were not sure about the death

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<v Speaker 1>browne resurrection. That's why after Jesus dies, the apostles are

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<v Speaker 1>afraid and scared, and they don't understand it. Then after

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<v Speaker 1>the Resurrection in Luke twenty four, Jesus has a conversation

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<v Speaker 1>with the disciples and he says, all of these things, right,

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<v Speaker 1>I will explain to you from the prophets from the

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<v Speaker 1>Old Testament, and that he brought it all to their

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<v Speaker 1>remembrance and opened their eyes to understand the scriptures, it

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<v Speaker 1>says in Luke twenty four. So prior to that, although

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<v Speaker 1>they had a faith in him, they were unsure as

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<v Speaker 1>to the full mission. That makes sense.

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<v Speaker 4>So it's your like saying doubt wouldn't be like the

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<v Speaker 4>answer at all? What was that I didn't catch that

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<v Speaker 4>doubt wouldn't be an answer at all, like an option

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<v Speaker 4>in that interpretation.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I think doubt constitutes a specific disbelief. And if

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<v Speaker 1>John's not sure, that's not necessarily the same thing as

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<v Speaker 1>disbelieving the Messiah, because he had baptized him, but he

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't sure about the full mission of the Messiah as

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<v Speaker 1>to what his job was.

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<v Speaker 4>So is it not okay to have disbelief?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, are you not? I'm not trying to be rude,

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<v Speaker 1>but are you guys drunk over there? You don't understand

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<v Speaker 1>what I'm saying.

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<v Speaker 4>Probably not, is that okay?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm just questioning, Well, I mean, are you questioning to

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<v Speaker 1>troll me?

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<v Speaker 4>Or is this are you No, I'm just questioning to

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<v Speaker 4>understand where you're coming from. And if you understand where

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<v Speaker 4>I'm coming from.

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<v Speaker 1>So doubt would be disbelieved, not trusting God not the

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<v Speaker 1>same thing as being unclear about all the theology of

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<v Speaker 1>the scripture and redemtive history.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I'm saying, like, even if you were clear, can

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<v Speaker 4>you have a moment of disbelief?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 4>Is that okay?

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<v Speaker 1>Yes? People do have Yeah, sure, So.

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<v Speaker 4>Do you think that was in that case? Or you

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<v Speaker 4>can't really tell?

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<v Speaker 1>Again, I don't think that lack of clarity about the

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<v Speaker 1>Massiah's mission equates to the sin of not believing God.

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<v Speaker 1>Why because of all the things that I've been telling

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<v Speaker 1>you for the last five minutes.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, but like there, do you think there's any way

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<v Speaker 4>it can equate based off of showing that you know,

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<v Speaker 4>we're not We're imperfect and we could have weakness with

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<v Speaker 4>disbelief if we, you know, have faith in that and

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<v Speaker 4>we could some have moments of disbelief.

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<v Speaker 1>I think there's many other passages that do talk about

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<v Speaker 1>people struggling with faith and we're all sinners, as John says.

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<v Speaker 1>So yes, but I don't think think that this is

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<v Speaker 1>a specific period in redentive history where before the death

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<v Speaker 1>rone resurrection again, not everything was clear even to the disciples,

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<v Speaker 1>and Luke twenty four makes that very clear. So Peter,

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<v Speaker 1>can I give you an example of the actual doubt? Peter, So,

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<v Speaker 1>when Peter denies Christ, he doubts. I don't think this example,

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<v Speaker 1>John the Baptist constitutes doubt. I just think he doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>know exactly what the mission is.

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<v Speaker 4>Well in those moments of doubts, like Jesus brought up

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<v Speaker 4>those messages from you know, the prophets and everything, like

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<v Speaker 4>you said, So it just brings you know, his voice

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<v Speaker 4>to be heard in those moments rather than just focusing

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<v Speaker 4>on John in that moment.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know what that means. I'm sorry, this is

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<v Speaker 1>like Gang Wien, I'm you. So I restarted an entire

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<v Speaker 1>space for the druid and his wife and they weren't coherent,

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<v Speaker 1>so it was a complete waste of time. But we're happy.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm happy to keep going. Gang Green, what's.

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<v Speaker 5>Up, Hey, I listened to your debate with Ryan Dawson

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<v Speaker 5>a while back. Is this the wrong time to catch

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<v Speaker 5>up on that or ask the questions?

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<v Speaker 6>No?

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<v Speaker 7>I remember, yeah, yeah, I was watching it with some

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<v Speaker 7>friends and your point some of the like the people

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<v Speaker 7>in my group were just saying, like, your.

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<v Speaker 5>Point of view is kind of like vague, Like could you, like,

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<v Speaker 5>since you said that you remember it vaguely, could you

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<v Speaker 5>describe your point of view?

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<v Speaker 1>Like what was whose point of view is vague? He

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<v Speaker 1>was arguing the truth is relative from what I recall.

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<v Speaker 1>How is arguing for objective truth vague?

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<v Speaker 5>But this had to do something with God, right, like

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<v Speaker 5>the existence of God?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and Ryan Dawson was an atheist skeptical relativist, which

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<v Speaker 1>means that truth is relative, right.

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<v Speaker 5>But can you summarize it for a normy like you're like, like,

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<v Speaker 5>because I still don't understand like what you meant, right,

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<v Speaker 5>it's like a very like the way that you cornered him,

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<v Speaker 5>like and I and I understand what you're doing right, like,

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<v Speaker 5>but to enorm me, it's very hard to understand what

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<v Speaker 5>that means.

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<v Speaker 1>Like, I mean, so claims are either relative or they're

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<v Speaker 1>objectively true. There's no middle ground there, So either something

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<v Speaker 1>is the case factually, objectively apart from my own personal

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<v Speaker 1>subjective feelings of my personal ideas about it. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>two plus two equals four. It doesn't matter how I

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<v Speaker 1>feel about that, or whether I want it to be five,

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<v Speaker 1>or whether the majority of society decides that two plus

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<v Speaker 1>two is four. It objectively is the case, regardless of

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<v Speaker 1>human perception or construable relative What does.

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<v Speaker 5>The disconnect with you and Ryan Dawson, Like, whatever you're

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<v Speaker 5>saying right now is like like common sense, like base.

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<v Speaker 1>Ryan Dawson believes that truth is relative and he's a

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<v Speaker 1>skeptical relativist. That was the debate, and I argued that

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<v Speaker 1>if you hold that position, you can't make any truth claims,

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<v Speaker 1>much less the claim that God doesn't exist.

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<v Speaker 5>So what what is your argument that God exists?

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<v Speaker 3>Like?

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<v Speaker 5>How if you had a couple of sentences to describe

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<v Speaker 5>that God exists, what would you say?

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<v Speaker 1>It's an argument from the impossibility of the contrary that

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<v Speaker 1>without the ex existence of a specific type of Christian

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<v Speaker 1>God that we argue for, you could not have a

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<v Speaker 1>basis for knowledge. Claims for ethical claims or claims about

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<v Speaker 1>reality that could not be epistemically grounded are justified.

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<v Speaker 5>So what would you say to someone that says, like,

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<v Speaker 5>the idea of God is a phenomenon that human nature

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<v Speaker 5>prescribes to because we have an ability to reason, right,

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<v Speaker 5>like for example, like an animal that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So those are all assertions and the ability to

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<v Speaker 1>do those things does not make it true, nor does

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<v Speaker 1>it prove that it's universally the case or true.

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<v Speaker 5>Right, But like evolution is not only physiological right like

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<v Speaker 5>it could be.

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<v Speaker 1>So now you're digging the hole even deeper because appealing

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<v Speaker 1>to a principle of change in nature does not in

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<v Speaker 1>any way prove the.

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<v Speaker 5>First But why but why is digging a whole deeper

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<v Speaker 5>and bad thing? Why is that discrediting?

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, you're trolling. You can't be a serious person. What's

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<v Speaker 1>something for him? If anybody wants to come on and

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<v Speaker 1>you would like to present an argument, ask a question,

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<v Speaker 1>give a challenge, you can. We seem to be getting

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<v Speaker 1>not serious people now. So maybe I made a mistake

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<v Speaker 1>in coming back here. I don't know. But any atheist,

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<v Speaker 1>any materialists, any Roman Catholics, any Muslims, and the evangelicals.

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<v Speaker 1>I've restarted this whole space for that druid guy, and

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<v Speaker 1>he was just waste. I can't believe wasted everybody's time.

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<v Speaker 1>Just try to have a good connection. Man, what's up?

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<v Speaker 8>You heard me?

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<v Speaker 9>Yeah, I promise this would be the last time I'll

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<v Speaker 9>call him today.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's fine. It was just hard to hear you

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<v Speaker 1>last time.

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<v Speaker 10>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 9>No, I was working, man, and I I draw a

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<v Speaker 9>trug for living.

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<v Speaker 11>So well that's yeah, that's what that was.

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<v Speaker 9>This question pertains to, like, well, yeah, this is what

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<v Speaker 9>I was gonna say earlier, and it's sorry about that.

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<v Speaker 9>In regards to like the Protestant circles like on Twitter, uh,

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<v Speaker 9>I see Luisi and Rachel Lanny here, so maybe one

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<v Speaker 9>of them can call in like right after me and

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<v Speaker 9>speak to it, because I know Rachel interacts with these

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<v Speaker 9>people all the damn time, especially the women.

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<v Speaker 12>Uh.

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<v Speaker 9>And I've seen Luigi going back and forth with some

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<v Speaker 9>of them like the past couple of weeks or whatever.

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<v Speaker 11>But have you heard of this, uh?

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<v Speaker 9>That that ship that George Jenko does, the the orthor

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<v Speaker 9>not not the Christian Avengers. It's basically just him and

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<v Speaker 9>like him and a whole bunch of other Protestants. Uh,

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<v Speaker 9>that that city that like get together, Like I'm not

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<v Speaker 9>sure if they do, they get together whatever and they

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<v Speaker 9>I'm not exactly sure if it's just like reading like

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<v Speaker 9>quote minding quote minding the Bible or whatever, but I mean,

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<v Speaker 9>that's that's essimply what it's gonna amount to be.

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<v Speaker 1>The way it's right.

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<v Speaker 9>So like the the one that Andrew got into a

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<v Speaker 9>debate with quote the debate with a couple of months ago.

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<v Speaker 9>And this is why I wish Chase was still on

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<v Speaker 9>here early, because he he got on the the space

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<v Speaker 9>with auto correct, like right after this happened, and he

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<v Speaker 9>started like he started like really getting into it with her,

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<v Speaker 9>like he was questioning, you know her, he was I

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<v Speaker 9>guess you could say he was pre supping her and

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<v Speaker 9>like it. And he was like the spelling this notion

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<v Speaker 9>that Andrew couldn't be a Christian because he was mean

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<v Speaker 9>like this this ship that they always say that, you know,

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<v Speaker 9>if you're like, they discredit you being a Christian, if

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<v Speaker 9>you're what they considered to be mean.

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<v Speaker 1>Or or whatever the hell that means.

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<v Speaker 9>And I guess my question is like, if if if

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<v Speaker 9>any of us could point out these people to you,

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<v Speaker 9>is there any way you would you would like kind

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<v Speaker 9>of reach out to him to tell him to come

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<v Speaker 9>to the spaces.

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<v Speaker 1>Because I just messedge the autor correct one right now,

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<v Speaker 1>So that's what you're talking about. I mean, I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think she'll come in here. Let me try again. You

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<v Speaker 1>notice what happened with that honey badger woman. It's weird

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<v Speaker 1>because the women all say that like they want a

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<v Speaker 1>debate on Twitter, but they want a debate about who's

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<v Speaker 1>debating me. They want to debate tone policing. They don't

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<v Speaker 1>want to ever actually talk about any issues, so, which

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<v Speaker 1>is really immature. I mean, it's like Bryson level stuff, Crusader.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like debating with children. Honestly, like Bryson as a child,

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<v Speaker 1>Debating with these women's like a child.

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<v Speaker 13>Hey, Jake, can you me Yeah, well, if you get

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<v Speaker 13>any background noise, I'm outside walking. I think the druidic

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<v Speaker 13>four winds might be picking up or something.

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<v Speaker 1>I must start using that argument next time somebody asks

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<v Speaker 1>for justification, I want to say, there's four wins, So

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<v Speaker 1>proved that transcen argument for four. Maybe he was breaking

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe he was breaking it for.

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<v Speaker 13>Well, you know, four is bigger than three. So I

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<v Speaker 13>guess the Druidik for wins beat our trinity exactly.

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<v Speaker 14>Quick question.

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<v Speaker 13>I don't want to dredge up old topics. I know

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<v Speaker 13>you're looking to move away from the Christian Zionism discussion.

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<v Speaker 13>I just had a quick question about the tweet a

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<v Speaker 13>few days ago. You said there's no problem with the

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<v Speaker 13>Jewish state or anything like that. Do you think that

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<v Speaker 13>necessitates it being in the Holy Land or could that

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<v Speaker 13>be anywhere?

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<v Speaker 1>No, it was originally going to be uh in Germany,

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<v Speaker 1>and then they were talking about Australia, so even the

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<v Speaker 1>Zionists did not conceive of it as literally the land

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<v Speaker 1>over in Palestine Israel. That was the decision of the

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<v Speaker 1>British Empire. You should listen to my talks on the

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<v Speaker 1>history of the British Empire in this regard.

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<v Speaker 13>Absolutely, I will check those out well. Perfectly answered my question.

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<v Speaker 15>Have a great day.

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<v Speaker 1>Yep, all right, it's open for we have the actual

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<v Speaker 1>Antichrist with us. According to Chase earlier, I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>if he has heard, but he was once again arguing

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<v Speaker 1>that his brother is, as the Beacons say, the best

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<v Speaker 1>candidate for Antichrist. So I was hoping that Donnie Darkened

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<v Speaker 1>guy was going to come back in here, because apparently

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<v Speaker 1>he thinks Trump is Antichrist, and I wanted to get

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<v Speaker 1>Tristan to come on and debate him, because if Tristan's

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<v Speaker 1>the Antichrist, like this could easily undercut any argument Donnie

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<v Speaker 1>darkined has. So I thought that was I thought that

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<v Speaker 1>could be an interesting showdown, But maybe not. I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>Do we have any other Druids or atheists, or Catholics

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<v Speaker 1>or muslim I can't believe I created a whole space

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<v Speaker 1>and the guy was just here to just joke around,

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<v Speaker 1>have drunk. I mean, but what do you What do

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<v Speaker 1>I expect from a Druid? Right? Dude was like, it's druid.

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<v Speaker 1>There's no word druid is. It's like, man, people have

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<v Speaker 1>no idea what having an actual debate is. It's it's

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<v Speaker 1>kind of comical and weird and just dystopian all at once.

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<v Speaker 1>Like people think that acting like an idiot is a debate,

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<v Speaker 1>which I can. I can act just as idiotic as

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<v Speaker 1>they can. It's open for me. If you have a

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<v Speaker 1>question upon about Druid's atheist, Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, and evangelical's liberals.

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<v Speaker 1>If you had questions about the earlier topics, that's fine,

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<v Speaker 1>we can go back to that. If you know chases

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<v Speaker 1>with us. I think he can speak to the possibility

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<v Speaker 1>that his brother's Antichrist versus Donnie Darkin's challenge that Trump

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<v Speaker 1>is Antichrist. Maybe maybe not. I don't know who are

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<v Speaker 1>all the two hundred and who are the three hundred

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<v Speaker 1>people in here that don't ever request a speaker. I

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<v Speaker 1>want to talk like what the heck is going through

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<v Speaker 1>you guys's in mind? Uh, well, it looks like Chase

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<v Speaker 1>Haggards is chickened out. He has declined to actually confront

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<v Speaker 1>his brother as Antichrist. So Sean, what's up, dude, Hope.

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<v Speaker 16>So I'm just wondering how you like consolidate those two things,

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<v Speaker 16>considering that would leave space open obviously for like a schism.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh, you've seen in the past.

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<v Speaker 16>I believe with them.

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<v Speaker 1>You have to be trolling with me again. You literally

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<v Speaker 1>think that the papacy is what grounds objective reality. Actually,

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<v Speaker 1>I think that makes sense for you guys, because you

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<v Speaker 1>guys are actually kind of saying he's basically priced. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>you can't be serious.

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<v Speaker 16>Well no, it's actually if you're are you aware of

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<v Speaker 16>the pollen mess and Barlem controversy.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I've read all the texts, So there you go.

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<v Speaker 16>How can you have objective reality when you have people

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<v Speaker 16>within your own orthodoxy that disagree with each other?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my gosh, you can't be this stupid. You have

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<v Speaker 1>to be trolling. Well, that's not an answer. It's because

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<v Speaker 1>the question is so stupid or you have mental problems

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<v Speaker 1>that it's like hard for me.

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<v Speaker 16>There's an objective truth, correct, of course. So oh so

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<v Speaker 16>you're just so like, explain your position at least?

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<v Speaker 1>Then are you?

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<v Speaker 12>Do you?

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<v Speaker 1>Are you a mentally retarded person? No, I'm being serious.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not being mean to you. I'm asking like, do

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<v Speaker 1>you have a mental challenge? No? Okay, how would the

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<v Speaker 1>papacy prove objective truth?

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<v Speaker 17>No?

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<v Speaker 16>No, I'm trying to get you to rationalize your belief

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<v Speaker 16>in objective reality while also saying.

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<v Speaker 1>You said that that was connected to the pope, which

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<v Speaker 1>is one of the stupidest things I've ever Well.

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<v Speaker 16>No, I think that if you were an objective person

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<v Speaker 16>like you believe in a universal truth, you would lean

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<v Speaker 16>more towards a papacy than towards orthodoxy, which has a

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<v Speaker 16>bunch of different you know where I'm coming at.

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<v Speaker 1>No, I mean, I think you have no clue what

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<v Speaker 1>you're talking about. But you just learned some of the stuff,

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<v Speaker 1>and you think that it's a good argument.

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<v Speaker 16>Okay, Well I have alread you heard any good arguments

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<v Speaker 16>from you either.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you want a good argument? How about this? The

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00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:54.519
<v Speaker 1>papacy contradicts because in Dictatus Pope and in When I'm Sanctum,

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<v Speaker 1>it teaches that the temporal supremacy of the pope as

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<v Speaker 1>a world ruler an emperor is necessary for salvation, and

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<v Speaker 1>post Vatican to the Romanchelloy Church no longer teaches this.

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<v Speaker 16>Right, So I kind of understand what you're saying, But

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<v Speaker 16>at the same time, I just don't know how you

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<v Speaker 16>can consolidate being a universalist and at the same time having.

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<v Speaker 1>Multiple a universalists.

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<v Speaker 16>What are you Well, you said you believe in an

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<v Speaker 16>objective truth, right, Like, so that.

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<v Speaker 1>Means that's not what universalism is.

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<v Speaker 16>Okay, then what is your universalism?

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, that's that's universal salvation for all people. What does

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<v Speaker 1>that have to do with the question I asked you

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<v Speaker 1>about the papacy?

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<v Speaker 16>Uh, Honestly, I'm I'm one of these the Catholic bros,

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<v Speaker 16>those who's kind.

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<v Speaker 1>Of looking Okay, you're a person.

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<v Speaker 12>This is a joke.

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<v Speaker 1>This is a joke. Perennial pariah. It's funny when I

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<v Speaker 1>literally cannot tell if it's a person trolling me as

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<v Speaker 1>a Catholic or if they're actually that retarded that they

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<v Speaker 1>believe that. That's like Muslim teer, like I bet you

424
00:28:13.640 --> 00:28:16.599
<v Speaker 1>that guy couldn't restate a hypothetical. I mean, I just

425
00:28:17.319 --> 00:28:20.880
<v Speaker 1>perennial on you. Hey, Jay, can you hear me?

426
00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:22.720
<v Speaker 18>Okay?

427
00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:25.759
<v Speaker 19>I just want to say that I've recently been going

428
00:28:25.880 --> 00:28:29.119
<v Speaker 19>to Orthodox church here in Oklahoma City.

429
00:28:30.440 --> 00:28:30.720
<v Speaker 12>Cool.

430
00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:33.960
<v Speaker 19>You asked, who are these people who aren't speaking that

431
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:34.759
<v Speaker 19>are just listening?

432
00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:35.720
<v Speaker 8>Well, that's me.

433
00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:38.440
<v Speaker 19>You know, I have a hard time following some of

434
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:41.839
<v Speaker 19>your stuff because you're so intellectual, but you've actually led

435
00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:44.400
<v Speaker 19>me down this road over the past few years, and

436
00:28:44.440 --> 00:28:45.359
<v Speaker 19>I want to thank you.

437
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:49.400
<v Speaker 8>But as a libertarian.

438
00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:51.839
<v Speaker 19>I'm not trying to I'm not trying to debate you,

439
00:28:51.880 --> 00:28:54.640
<v Speaker 19>but I'd like you to kind of clarify and defend

440
00:28:54.680 --> 00:28:58.359
<v Speaker 19>your position on why you can't be libertarian and Orthodox.

441
00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:03.519
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think most of the time libertarianism comes with

442
00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:07.720
<v Speaker 1>a lot of the Enlightenment assumptions such as atomized individualism,

443
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:13.599
<v Speaker 1>liberty of conscience, of total free speech, and freedom of

444
00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:17.000
<v Speaker 1>the press. And I think that most of the time

445
00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:22.039
<v Speaker 1>it's antithetical to the idea of the Byzantine symphonia model

446
00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:26.400
<v Speaker 1>of the state and an explicitly Christian state. There could

447
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:31.799
<v Speaker 1>be some future possible formulation of a minimal state with

448
00:29:32.359 --> 00:29:38.920
<v Speaker 1>maximal liberty, perhaps it's not necessarily ideologically impossible, but most

449
00:29:38.920 --> 00:29:42.240
<v Speaker 1>of the Enlightenment presuppositions are bound up with anti Christian

450
00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:47.000
<v Speaker 1>Enlightenment philosophy, which at its root is not Orthodox.

451
00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:51.359
<v Speaker 19>Sure, that's kind of how I see the Big L

452
00:29:51.480 --> 00:29:54.039
<v Speaker 19>Libertarian Party kind of moving to.

453
00:29:54.400 --> 00:29:55.559
<v Speaker 3>And you think just the.

454
00:29:57.599 --> 00:30:01.400
<v Speaker 19>Natural movement of the libertarian I think it had.

455
00:30:01.319 --> 00:30:05.359
<v Speaker 1>To get specific, like about like you know, specifically what

456
00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:10.359
<v Speaker 1>elements of Enlightenment adamized liberalism, you know we're talking about

457
00:30:10.400 --> 00:30:13.440
<v Speaker 1>if we mean like John Locke's philosophy, Like none of

458
00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:18.599
<v Speaker 1>that fits with orthodox Christian theology. I just think usually

459
00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:24.720
<v Speaker 1>the negative liberty definition of the state is antithetical to

460
00:30:24.799 --> 00:30:30.000
<v Speaker 1>the notion of the Christian sacrament or almost sacrament of

461
00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:32.400
<v Speaker 1>coronation for a king or remember.

462
00:30:32.359 --> 00:30:35.880
<v Speaker 19>Okay, so you're more on the lines of believing we

463
00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:39.680
<v Speaker 19>should have like an orthodox state or a.

464
00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:44.759
<v Speaker 1>Moneg that's the tradition of the church. Every saint in

465
00:30:44.759 --> 00:30:48.240
<v Speaker 1>the history of the Church has been monarchists that we

466
00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:52.319
<v Speaker 1>know of. There are no saints that are democracy proponents

467
00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:57.359
<v Speaker 1>or republic proponents. I suppose it's possible there could be one,

468
00:30:57.359 --> 00:30:59.720
<v Speaker 1>but I think if the entire ethos of the church

469
00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:03.640
<v Speaker 1>has been all the way up until Saint John acron

470
00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:06.880
<v Speaker 1>Stat you know, who wrote some really good works defending monarchy,

471
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:12.440
<v Speaker 1>there's really not any place for democracy or republic. That

472
00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:15.279
<v Speaker 1>does not mean that I favor, you know, I bloated

473
00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:19.119
<v Speaker 1>bureaucracy or something like that, but I do agree with

474
00:31:20.119 --> 00:31:25.799
<v Speaker 1>you know, free exchange, some sort of balance between a

475
00:31:25.880 --> 00:31:30.240
<v Speaker 1>minimal authoritative state and you know, free exchange of goods

476
00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:33.400
<v Speaker 1>and so forth. Services. You've got to have some kind

477
00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:36.680
<v Speaker 1>of tariffs too, So you know, I'm not exactly sure

478
00:31:36.680 --> 00:31:38.359
<v Speaker 1>what the answers are to all of that, but I

479
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:42.599
<v Speaker 1>do think that you can't. I mean, libertarian Enlightenment philosophy

480
00:31:42.680 --> 00:31:45.559
<v Speaker 1>is basically, you know, we have no masters but ourselves,

481
00:31:46.279 --> 00:31:49.839
<v Speaker 1>and the tradition of the Church is that God institute

482
00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:53.440
<v Speaker 1>a church and state the Byzantine double headed eagle. Now,

483
00:31:53.480 --> 00:31:55.960
<v Speaker 1>within that model, you could argue for a minimal state,

484
00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:58.599
<v Speaker 1>which I think is convincing. That's a that's a pretty

485
00:31:58.599 --> 00:32:02.200
<v Speaker 1>solid argument. But that's as far as I guess I

486
00:32:02.200 --> 00:32:04.319
<v Speaker 1>could argue, because I don't have old I don't know.

487
00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:06.559
<v Speaker 1>I mean, these are all kind of in the realm

488
00:32:06.599 --> 00:32:09.599
<v Speaker 1>of theory, right, their theoretical arguments because they don't really

489
00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:12.319
<v Speaker 1>touch the real world, because you know, the real world

490
00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:16.200
<v Speaker 1>is what we have, So that's all pragmatic real politics.

491
00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:28.000
<v Speaker 20>Yonkers, Get on, Hi, did you bring me up?

492
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:45.440
<v Speaker 3>Sorry?

493
00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:47.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's that's why I called her name.

494
00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:50.640
<v Speaker 21>Sorry, there was a delay. Yeah, it must be the

495
00:32:50.680 --> 00:32:56.319
<v Speaker 21>app What I wanted to ask about is polemism or

496
00:32:56.359 --> 00:33:00.279
<v Speaker 21>hei sichasm, as far as I understand, which is the idea,

497
00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:04.480
<v Speaker 21>and I don't mean to be overly simplistic of you know,

498
00:33:04.599 --> 00:33:09.039
<v Speaker 21>through high schochastic prayer experiencing like the uncreated energies of God?

499
00:33:09.160 --> 00:33:10.279
<v Speaker 22>Do I have that right day?

500
00:33:10.599 --> 00:33:12.359
<v Speaker 20>Is that to just wrap the correctly?

501
00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:14.039
<v Speaker 1>No, that's that's correct.

502
00:33:14.119 --> 00:33:18.519
<v Speaker 21>Well, I guess the Catholic original critique is of it

503
00:33:18.640 --> 00:33:24.359
<v Speaker 21>being very subjective and that like salvation is mainly through

504
00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:27.480
<v Speaker 21>baptism and the Eucharist, and you know saints can have.

505
00:33:28.279 --> 00:33:32.079
<v Speaker 1>Well hold on. So then the writings of Saint Gregory,

506
00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:35.400
<v Speaker 1>the prayer and the experience of those things is not

507
00:33:35.960 --> 00:33:40.279
<v Speaker 1>distinct or divided or separated from the liturgy of the Church,

508
00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:43.160
<v Speaker 1>and in fact, some of the New Theologian argues that

509
00:33:43.799 --> 00:33:48.559
<v Speaker 1>the sacraments make the hesochastic mystical experience available to all Christians.

510
00:33:48.559 --> 00:33:50.559
<v Speaker 1>In fact, he was actually kicked out of the monastery

511
00:33:50.599 --> 00:33:51.279
<v Speaker 1>over this point.

512
00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:53.920
<v Speaker 21>Okay, this is something I was kind of confused about.

513
00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:57.119
<v Speaker 21>So it's not something that is because I think the

514
00:33:57.200 --> 00:33:59.759
<v Speaker 21>Catholic critique, and it sounds like this may be inaccurate,

515
00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:03.079
<v Speaker 21>is that there's almost like two layers. It creates two

516
00:34:03.160 --> 00:34:05.119
<v Speaker 21>layers where it's like one layers the people who are

517
00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:09.679
<v Speaker 21>baptized and receive confession and you receive the sacraments. Of course,

518
00:34:09.719 --> 00:34:11.679
<v Speaker 21>doing it in the right attitude, go ahead of what

519
00:34:11.719 --> 00:34:12.320
<v Speaker 21>we're gonna say.

520
00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:15.880
<v Speaker 1>Now, you're right about that, because in fact, when Saint

521
00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:21.800
<v Speaker 1>Simon and you Theologian was arguing against this actual problem,

522
00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:25.840
<v Speaker 1>he got kicked out of the monastery for arguing that

523
00:34:26.119 --> 00:34:29.800
<v Speaker 1>they had fallen into a kind of messallionism. And then

524
00:34:30.039 --> 00:34:33.760
<v Speaker 1>when he's restored and vindicated, he's actually made a saying

525
00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:36.760
<v Speaker 1>precisely on this very point. So actually what you're bringing

526
00:34:36.840 --> 00:34:40.360
<v Speaker 1>up is a relevant topic. I would recommend reading his

527
00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:46.239
<v Speaker 1>mystical discourses. Yeah, because he actually treats, he actually discusses

528
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:46.920
<v Speaker 1>this very subject.

529
00:34:47.039 --> 00:34:48.559
<v Speaker 20>Yeah, I don't mean a hog up time.

530
00:34:48.559 --> 00:34:51.320
<v Speaker 21>But if I'm not mistaken a vagarous, I don't think

531
00:34:51.320 --> 00:34:55.920
<v Speaker 21>a vagarous is even been canonized officially, if I'm not

532
00:34:55.960 --> 00:34:58.320
<v Speaker 21>mistaken by either the Eastern Orthodox or Catholics.

533
00:34:58.360 --> 00:35:01.840
<v Speaker 1>Because I'm pretty sure he has some heterodox views. So

534
00:35:01.880 --> 00:35:03.599
<v Speaker 1>I don't think we could canonize that.

535
00:35:03.719 --> 00:35:08.239
<v Speaker 21>Okay, I think of okay, never mind then, but yeah,

536
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:09.880
<v Speaker 21>I mean the Vigrus is considered kind of like a

537
00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:13.559
<v Speaker 21>proto hysochist, and so it was marcarious.

538
00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:15.320
<v Speaker 20>But anyway, I didn't.

539
00:35:15.320 --> 00:35:17.639
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's true that so it with some of the

540
00:35:19.239 --> 00:35:21.960
<v Speaker 1>some of those guys were influenced by origin, and if

541
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:27.119
<v Speaker 1>you look at uh, even the Cappadocians were influenced by origin.

542
00:35:27.800 --> 00:35:31.239
<v Speaker 1>But we would definitely not include uh Evagrius, if I

543
00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:34.679
<v Speaker 1>recall amongst amongst the saints. I don't know why that

544
00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:36.920
<v Speaker 1>guy was thumbing down. I was about to bring him up.

545
00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:40.119
<v Speaker 1>Oh so if you're if you're the dude that was

546
00:35:40.519 --> 00:35:42.119
<v Speaker 1>trying to come to bate, you can come back.

547
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:43.960
<v Speaker 20>No, he's just never mind him.

548
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:44.639
<v Speaker 21>He's just a guy.

549
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:47.679
<v Speaker 20>It did ignore him. He wasn't even go on with

550
00:35:47.719 --> 00:35:48.679
<v Speaker 20>your points.

551
00:35:50.719 --> 00:35:51.360
<v Speaker 1>You know who that guy.

552
00:35:51.559 --> 00:35:54.000
<v Speaker 21>Yeah, it's just stupid. It's it's not even related to

553
00:35:54.039 --> 00:35:56.519
<v Speaker 21>you or this discussion. It's just like a personal it's

554
00:35:56.519 --> 00:35:58.679
<v Speaker 21>just really it's silly for forget about him.

555
00:35:59.159 --> 00:36:02.199
<v Speaker 1>But so he's somebody that trolls he yeah, like.

556
00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:06.000
<v Speaker 21>It's it's a very complicated lore. But like I didn't

557
00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:08.760
<v Speaker 21>want to get into it. We're okay, though, he's cool,

558
00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:12.400
<v Speaker 21>but uh, just getting back to the main point of

559
00:36:12.519 --> 00:36:13.199
<v Speaker 21>this discussion.

560
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:15.679
<v Speaker 1>Sure, go ahead.

561
00:36:15.800 --> 00:36:16.639
<v Speaker 3>Oh no, no, you were.

562
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:18.719
<v Speaker 21>Completing something about a vagarious I guess.

563
00:36:18.760 --> 00:36:24.000
<v Speaker 1>But well, if I recall, he's an originist explicitly, and

564
00:36:24.039 --> 00:36:30.280
<v Speaker 1>he's not accepted in the Orthodox tradition precisely because of

565
00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:34.480
<v Speaker 1>his uh originist.

566
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:38.880
<v Speaker 21>Positions, right right, No, I well, I appreciate you clarifying this.

567
00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:41.360
<v Speaker 21>And for the record, I am a Roman Catholic, and

568
00:36:41.800 --> 00:36:44.719
<v Speaker 21>my understanding of Pola Mos was that, you know, it

569
00:36:44.760 --> 00:36:47.000
<v Speaker 21>was condemned because it was who's so close to masculinism,

570
00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:49.039
<v Speaker 21>So I'm interested.

571
00:36:49.360 --> 00:36:53.360
<v Speaker 23>I mean, I thought, yeah, but it's not Missianism because

572
00:36:53.480 --> 00:36:57.320
<v Speaker 23>precisely because of the controversies of Saint Simeon, the New

573
00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:00.000
<v Speaker 23>theologian who's a very important person Orthodox Church.

574
00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:03.559
<v Speaker 21>Anyway, thank you for clarifying that. I'll read more about

575
00:37:03.719 --> 00:37:04.360
<v Speaker 21>Saint Simeon.

576
00:37:06.039 --> 00:37:09.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he has a Vladimir's snic for us Prince his

577
00:37:10.079 --> 00:37:12.679
<v Speaker 1>I think it's a four volume a little easy four

578
00:37:12.760 --> 00:37:16.320
<v Speaker 1>volume set, and I don't remember at the top of

579
00:37:16.360 --> 00:37:18.480
<v Speaker 1>my head. I've got it in the in the library,

580
00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:20.519
<v Speaker 1>but I don't remember which volume deals with the energies.

581
00:37:20.599 --> 00:37:25.079
<v Speaker 1>But one of the volumes specifically does banana teine Emperor? What'soe?

582
00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:25.559
<v Speaker 12>Dude?

583
00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:36.679
<v Speaker 1>Can you hear me?

584
00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:48.039
<v Speaker 15>There's a serious lag on spaces today. Yeah, okay, yeah,

585
00:37:48.280 --> 00:37:50.679
<v Speaker 15>talking about that Catholic a couple of minutes ago with

586
00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:55.840
<v Speaker 15>the whole objective true thing. Same people who won't acknowledge

587
00:37:55.840 --> 00:38:00.320
<v Speaker 15>that they make like arbitrary standards for uh, you know

588
00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:03.800
<v Speaker 15>what category defines truth, whether that be religious practice or

589
00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:07.519
<v Speaker 15>what the Pope said where he's sitting. So, but I

590
00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:11.039
<v Speaker 15>did have a question about synods in the Orthodox Church,

591
00:38:11.440 --> 00:38:14.079
<v Speaker 15>and there's a constant thing I say.

592
00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:16.320
<v Speaker 1>I'm not an expert on synods, but I will comment

593
00:38:16.400 --> 00:38:17.000
<v Speaker 1>to my olgure.

594
00:38:17.159 --> 00:38:21.639
<v Speaker 15>Yeah, it's just actually about a speaking of Catholic talking points.

595
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:24.800
<v Speaker 15>They make a consistent talking point that we've never had

596
00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:27.519
<v Speaker 15>an ecumenical council, But I feel like when I look

597
00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:30.679
<v Speaker 15>it up, I kind of get mixed answers as to

598
00:38:30.920 --> 00:38:34.880
<v Speaker 15>the difference in practicality of like what was.

599
00:38:35.199 --> 00:38:39.480
<v Speaker 1>So the term ecumenical council only applies when there was

600
00:38:39.719 --> 00:38:45.079
<v Speaker 1>an Orthodox oiticumene or imperium. So when the Byzantine Empire fell,

601
00:38:45.320 --> 00:38:48.840
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't make sense there would be quote ecumenical councils anymore.

602
00:38:48.880 --> 00:38:51.559
<v Speaker 1>There's no emperor. That's what the emperor called all the councils.

603
00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:54.079
<v Speaker 1>Even Roman Catholics are forced to admit that some of

604
00:38:54.119 --> 00:38:58.079
<v Speaker 1>the some of the characteristics of quote ecumenical councils include,

605
00:38:58.519 --> 00:39:01.760
<v Speaker 1>by the time of Gregor the Great, the pentarchy. Even

606
00:39:01.840 --> 00:39:06.039
<v Speaker 1>Roman Catholics submit this. So if Rome skives them against

607
00:39:06.039 --> 00:39:10.119
<v Speaker 1>all the other four patriarchis, which is what happened, then

608
00:39:10.599 --> 00:39:16.320
<v Speaker 1>by Rome's definition, there's no pentarchical ecumenical council anymore. And

609
00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:20.679
<v Speaker 1>so even in their listing and accounting, they're inconsistent because

610
00:39:20.679 --> 00:39:22.639
<v Speaker 1>they don't count latter than six forty nine as an

611
00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:26.280
<v Speaker 1>ecumenical council when it should count as one. So by default,

612
00:39:26.719 --> 00:39:29.760
<v Speaker 1>their rejection of six forty nine and accepting the six

613
00:39:29.800 --> 00:39:34.079
<v Speaker 1>Seconmenical Council proves our position that our position was the

614
00:39:34.119 --> 00:39:38.880
<v Speaker 1>norm at that time, because if the Pope confirmed the

615
00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:41.840
<v Speaker 1>condemnation of the Monothelites in six forty nine, there would

616
00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:44.400
<v Speaker 1>not have been a need for the six Ecumenical Council

617
00:39:44.440 --> 00:39:45.960
<v Speaker 1>to solve the Monothelite issue.

618
00:39:46.039 --> 00:39:46.679
<v Speaker 12>Okay, got it?

619
00:39:46.760 --> 00:39:47.960
<v Speaker 15>Yeah, because I feel like there's.

620
00:39:49.760 --> 00:39:53.079
<v Speaker 1>And then beyond that, if the Orthodox Church throughout the

621
00:39:53.199 --> 00:39:57.800
<v Speaker 1>entire world accepts the Palomite Synods and the Phocian Synon,

622
00:39:58.079 --> 00:39:59.239
<v Speaker 1>those are eight and nine.

623
00:39:59.599 --> 00:40:04.599
<v Speaker 15>Yes, So in practicality, those are what semantically, I guess

624
00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:09.880
<v Speaker 15>the Catholics would describe as quotes. I don't know the

625
00:40:09.920 --> 00:40:11.400
<v Speaker 15>same level as what an ecumenical.

626
00:40:11.400 --> 00:40:14.639
<v Speaker 1>They're literally called an Orthodox Church. They're called pan Orthodox

627
00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:17.639
<v Speaker 1>because they've been accepted by and received by the Orthodoxy.

628
00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:19.679
<v Speaker 15>Yeah, so I'm familiar with that. But there's this weird thing.

629
00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:21.599
<v Speaker 15>Have you noticed this thing that apologists do where they say,

630
00:40:21.639 --> 00:40:24.159
<v Speaker 15>we haven't been able to hold a sit on or sorry,

631
00:40:24.159 --> 00:40:28.519
<v Speaker 15>not ecumenical councils since the schism, as if it's like

632
00:40:28.719 --> 00:40:31.760
<v Speaker 15>presupposing that it has to be ecumenical in order for

633
00:40:31.760 --> 00:40:34.400
<v Speaker 15>it to be like binding, like just because of the word.

634
00:40:35.480 --> 00:40:38.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, that's exactly. They assume that for the Church

635
00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:40.480
<v Speaker 1>to be governed or to be guided, there has to

636
00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:43.800
<v Speaker 1>be quote ecumenical councils. But all all you have to

637
00:40:43.840 --> 00:40:45.880
<v Speaker 1>do is ask them, how did a Christian in the

638
00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:48.679
<v Speaker 1>year three hundred know what the teaching of the church was?

639
00:40:48.760 --> 00:40:50.400
<v Speaker 1>Who wasn't in the vicinity of Rome.

640
00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:52.880
<v Speaker 15>Yeah, that makes sense, that's a good rebuttal so.

641
00:40:52.880 --> 00:40:55.599
<v Speaker 1>There's no ecamenical councils. They don't have access to Rome,

642
00:40:55.719 --> 00:40:58.679
<v Speaker 1>so nobody knows what Christianity is throughout the Roman Empire

643
00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:01.079
<v Speaker 1>unless they literally walked up to Rome and ask them

644
00:41:01.079 --> 00:41:02.400
<v Speaker 1>what the faith is. That's stupid.

645
00:41:02.840 --> 00:41:05.559
<v Speaker 15>Yeah, I mean it'd be like saying, like, you know,

646
00:41:05.639 --> 00:41:10.119
<v Speaker 15>you're you're a druid because you made Rejuvenation Druid and

647
00:41:10.239 --> 00:41:12.239
<v Speaker 15>World Warcraft in two thousand and eight and then got

648
00:41:12.280 --> 00:41:14.280
<v Speaker 15>out of space to make an entire space for somebody.

649
00:41:14.440 --> 00:41:14.679
<v Speaker 12>Yeah.

650
00:41:14.840 --> 00:41:20.159
<v Speaker 1>Anyways, thanks, Yeah. I mean I think that there are

651
00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:23.360
<v Speaker 1>other documents too that are pretty much universally accepted, like

652
00:41:23.480 --> 00:41:27.719
<v Speaker 1>the Letter of the Patriarchs to the Pope, for example.

653
00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:31.800
<v Speaker 1>I mean, we wouldn't say, oh, it's infallible, but I

654
00:41:31.800 --> 00:41:34.400
<v Speaker 1>don't know of anybody in the Orthodox world that rejects,

655
00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:39.800
<v Speaker 1>you know, the encyclicals of the patriarch. Patriarch it's slang Durino.

656
00:41:42.519 --> 00:41:48.800
<v Speaker 24>Hey, Jay, I've been having some discussions with some artheists friends,

657
00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:55.760
<v Speaker 24>and I've been getting the arguments quite often that the

658
00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:59.679
<v Speaker 24>things that you talk about in tag that are pretty existing,

659
00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:04.119
<v Speaker 24>you know, like the laws of logic, are basically man made.

660
00:42:04.199 --> 00:42:07.559
<v Speaker 24>And I was hoping for one hit ko to that, like,

661
00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:11.519
<v Speaker 24>if you can flesh out why these things are already

662
00:42:11.800 --> 00:42:17.239
<v Speaker 24>exist and we didn't create them, that's a question and

663
00:42:17.320 --> 00:42:18.079
<v Speaker 24>text in advance.

664
00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:24.079
<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry if somebody messaged me, could you repeat the question?

665
00:42:26.280 --> 00:42:26.559
<v Speaker 12>Yeah?

666
00:42:26.599 --> 00:42:30.760
<v Speaker 24>Sure. So in fact, you've been saying that some things,

667
00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:35.800
<v Speaker 24>like the metaphysical concepts like numbers, like loads of logics,

668
00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:40.920
<v Speaker 24>et cetera, are basically pre existing and not man made.

669
00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:43.679
<v Speaker 24>And I've been getting the argument from some athets fans

670
00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:48.719
<v Speaker 24>that these things have been used by people because we

671
00:42:48.920 --> 00:42:52.079
<v Speaker 24>made them for our.

672
00:42:52.840 --> 00:42:55.239
<v Speaker 1>Right, So if they are social constructs, then they can

673
00:42:55.320 --> 00:42:56.039
<v Speaker 1>be otherwise.

674
00:42:57.039 --> 00:43:00.000
<v Speaker 24>Yeah, that's what I've been saying that. I was hoping for.

675
00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:04.960
<v Speaker 1>Laws of logic to say that they could be otherwise

676
00:43:05.039 --> 00:43:09.360
<v Speaker 1>it would mean that there's not actually any fixed governing

677
00:43:09.559 --> 00:43:14.079
<v Speaker 1>rules of thought or critical thinking or logic. So, I mean,

678
00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:16.519
<v Speaker 1>this is the stupidest thinking that if we all just

679
00:43:16.599 --> 00:43:19.400
<v Speaker 1>come together and say two plus two populus five, then

680
00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:22.639
<v Speaker 1>it becomes five. I mean, it's that stupid. But even

681
00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:25.440
<v Speaker 1>if that were the case, then we really couldn't know

682
00:43:25.519 --> 00:43:30.960
<v Speaker 1>anything because what makes it true the consensus. Well, if

683
00:43:31.000 --> 00:43:34.599
<v Speaker 1>it's the consensus, then anytime there's a new consensus, then

684
00:43:34.599 --> 00:43:36.960
<v Speaker 1>there's a new truth. But we would not be able

685
00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:40.320
<v Speaker 1>to know at any given time what the actual consensus was,

686
00:43:40.559 --> 00:43:44.519
<v Speaker 1>and so it would ultimately be self refuting even if

687
00:43:44.519 --> 00:43:49.760
<v Speaker 1>you admitted that quote truth is determined by the consensus. Furthermore,

688
00:43:49.960 --> 00:43:52.079
<v Speaker 1>how do we know that truth is concerned by the

689
00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:55.840
<v Speaker 1>determined by the consensus? And that proposition itself would also

690
00:43:55.920 --> 00:44:00.280
<v Speaker 1>be subject to revision if the consensus reject did to

691
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:03.360
<v Speaker 1>the proposition that truth is determined by consensus. So it's

692
00:44:03.679 --> 00:44:08.440
<v Speaker 1>a completely stupid self defeating It's so dumb it makes

693
00:44:08.639 --> 00:44:12.000
<v Speaker 1>uh sentences impossible, Like you can't even make a sentence

694
00:44:12.079 --> 00:44:15.599
<v Speaker 1>if you actually believe that, because you couldn't even assure

695
00:44:15.639 --> 00:44:17.639
<v Speaker 1>anyone that the meaning of the sentence that you just

696
00:44:17.679 --> 00:44:21.599
<v Speaker 1>gave is the same meaning two seconds later. I mean,

697
00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:24.320
<v Speaker 1>it's just complete, it's totally destructive to the possibility of

698
00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:28.079
<v Speaker 1>knowledge at all. Now I've asked all these Protestant people

699
00:44:28.079 --> 00:44:33.199
<v Speaker 1>and women to they won't, they won't debate. These these

700
00:44:33.320 --> 00:44:39.440
<v Speaker 1>people are so just arrogant, Like this woman says, the

701
00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:43.679
<v Speaker 1>throne of Jesus defends itself. It doesn't need my defense

702
00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:50.039
<v Speaker 1>because I was super pious. So now they want to

703
00:44:51.000 --> 00:45:00.320
<v Speaker 1>fuss all day, but they can't. They can't. Actually, if anything, hm,

704
00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:26.920
<v Speaker 1>anybody else, it's open for him for any topics, Protestant, Atheists, Catholic, Muslim, Evangelical, Calvinist, liberal, uh.

705
00:45:25.320 --> 00:45:44.440
<v Speaker 8>Whatever else. For now, can I speak to you? Can

706
00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:44.880
<v Speaker 8>you hear me?

707
00:45:49.039 --> 00:45:49.639
<v Speaker 19>I have it?

708
00:45:49.960 --> 00:45:50.159
<v Speaker 12>Yeah.

709
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:55.320
<v Speaker 19>Well, I have a a friend who is going to

710
00:45:56.480 --> 00:46:06.599
<v Speaker 19>preacher school and he's going into Pentecostal and it's it's

711
00:46:06.639 --> 00:46:09.639
<v Speaker 19>kind of a wild ride because I knew him before

712
00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:13.119
<v Speaker 19>all this, and now he's kind of, you know, turned

713
00:46:13.119 --> 00:46:16.559
<v Speaker 19>into kind of a different animal. But I asked him,

714
00:46:16.639 --> 00:46:21.159
<v Speaker 19>I sent him your video that I thought was epic

715
00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:27.199
<v Speaker 19>with misfit Patriot, and asked him about Christian Zionism, which I.

716
00:46:27.159 --> 00:46:29.440
<v Speaker 20>Know he's against, but he has this new.

717
00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:33.320
<v Speaker 19>Take on it, and this is what he told me.

718
00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:37.280
<v Speaker 19>He says, what I know about Christian Zionism is it's

719
00:46:37.360 --> 00:46:40.360
<v Speaker 19>not the same now as it was when the colonial

720
00:46:40.960 --> 00:46:47.639
<v Speaker 19>the colonists arrived, and he said, the original there.

721
00:46:47.519 --> 00:46:49.920
<v Speaker 1>Is no such thing as Christian Zionism before.

722
00:46:49.599 --> 00:46:50.840
<v Speaker 20>That's what I'm thinking.

723
00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:53.199
<v Speaker 19>And then he said, the original premise was to create

724
00:46:53.239 --> 00:46:57.159
<v Speaker 19>a nation of Christians, by Christians, for Christians. Then somewhere

725
00:46:57.199 --> 00:46:59.880
<v Speaker 19>along the way it twisted into what we have now,

726
00:47:00.639 --> 00:47:01.199
<v Speaker 19>which is some.

727
00:47:02.679 --> 00:47:04.480
<v Speaker 1>What none of that is that has nothing to do

728
00:47:04.559 --> 00:47:06.840
<v Speaker 1>with with Zionism, That's what I thought.

729
00:47:07.079 --> 00:47:09.039
<v Speaker 19>So I just wondered how you would respond to that.

730
00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:10.400
<v Speaker 3>I mean, he's going to school.

731
00:47:11.679 --> 00:47:16.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, it's so stupid. It's like hard to

732
00:47:16.079 --> 00:47:40.760
<v Speaker 1>even reply to slang arena anybody else. So this is

733
00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:44.960
<v Speaker 1>really weird. We got some like wildly low tier stuff,

734
00:47:45.440 --> 00:47:47.679
<v Speaker 1>and I honestly can't even tell people are joking or

735
00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:51.519
<v Speaker 1>being serious, Like it doesn't it's it's really hard to tell.

736
00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:55.079
<v Speaker 1>And if they're troubling, it's actually pretty funny. I have

737
00:47:55.119 --> 00:47:59.960
<v Speaker 1>to admit that coming on and saying that the Pope

738
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:06.679
<v Speaker 1>proves objective reality, that's actually pretty awesome because it's like

739
00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:10.239
<v Speaker 1>a summation of every critique of the papacy ever in

740
00:48:10.360 --> 00:48:14.639
<v Speaker 1>one weird, delusional argument. But I cannot tell that guys

741
00:48:14.679 --> 00:48:19.079
<v Speaker 1>being serious or not. I mean, it was just like, wow.

742
00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:33.599
<v Speaker 25>Ian, go ahead, Hey, I just had a quick question.

743
00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:35.840
<v Speaker 14>Are you familiar with the Philip Colia of Origin?

744
00:48:40.199 --> 00:48:43.320
<v Speaker 1>Origin didn't write to Philip Colia. It's a mystical text.

745
00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:45.280
<v Speaker 1>You're talking about the text of the church. It's like

746
00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:47.320
<v Speaker 1>four volumes is translated.

747
00:48:46.760 --> 00:48:53.239
<v Speaker 26>By No, it's the Philiclia of Origin. It's a compilation. Okay,

748
00:48:53.639 --> 00:48:55.599
<v Speaker 26>well if that kind of defeats the point of the question,

749
00:48:55.639 --> 00:48:59.000
<v Speaker 26>but it's a compilation of writings of Origin compiled by

750
00:48:59.159 --> 00:49:06.159
<v Speaker 26>Saint Gregory Nonzianzis and Saint Basil the great really interesting text.

751
00:49:06.199 --> 00:49:08.360
<v Speaker 26>But my question was specifically about a chapter in that

752
00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:10.159
<v Speaker 26>in that text, So.

753
00:49:11.800 --> 00:49:14.480
<v Speaker 1>No, I did not, I don't, we don't. I don't

754
00:49:14.519 --> 00:49:16.840
<v Speaker 1>follow Origin at all. So I mean, I understand he

755
00:49:16.960 --> 00:49:20.519
<v Speaker 1>was influential on the Capit oceans.

756
00:49:20.559 --> 00:49:25.000
<v Speaker 26>But yeah, no, I just thought it was an interesting text,

757
00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:29.519
<v Speaker 26>and one of the chapters included was something that sounded

758
00:49:29.599 --> 00:49:34.679
<v Speaker 26>very contrary to what else Saint Basil, and it was

759
00:49:34.719 --> 00:49:35.239
<v Speaker 26>weird that it.

760
00:49:35.199 --> 00:49:36.000
<v Speaker 14>Was included in there.

761
00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:43.400
<v Speaker 26>But what was included, I believe it's chapter seventeen, and

762
00:49:44.800 --> 00:49:46.280
<v Speaker 26>they include an argument that.

763
00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:48.239
<v Speaker 14>Origin makes about.

764
00:49:50.440 --> 00:49:52.960
<v Speaker 26>Basically, Origin goes through and makes you an argument that

765
00:49:53.519 --> 00:49:56.320
<v Speaker 26>it would almost be sinful to translate the name of

766
00:49:56.360 --> 00:50:00.480
<v Speaker 26>God out of the original language because that name God

767
00:50:00.679 --> 00:50:07.559
<v Speaker 26>is specifically tied to the God of Christianity basically, and

768
00:50:07.599 --> 00:50:09.360
<v Speaker 26>it just seems contrary.

769
00:50:10.480 --> 00:50:12.360
<v Speaker 14>Two arguments that.

770
00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:15.199
<v Speaker 1>The way the Jews view the touch of grammar.

771
00:50:15.360 --> 00:50:17.000
<v Speaker 14>Yes, yep, pretty much.

772
00:50:17.960 --> 00:50:20.039
<v Speaker 26>Yeah, it was an interesting chapter, but it seems contrary

773
00:50:20.079 --> 00:50:23.000
<v Speaker 26>to what I understand. At least it's like Saint Gregory

774
00:50:23.119 --> 00:50:25.000
<v Speaker 26>Nissa argues against you know me, it's at points that

775
00:50:26.239 --> 00:50:30.800
<v Speaker 26>language is a social construct and the name of God

776
00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:34.280
<v Speaker 26>doesn't have any value just because of the letters of it.

777
00:50:36.079 --> 00:50:38.199
<v Speaker 1>Yes, that's it. Yeah, that's a good question. I mean,

778
00:50:38.280 --> 00:50:40.679
<v Speaker 1>I don't know that. This is kind of the basis

779
00:50:40.679 --> 00:50:44.719
<v Speaker 1>for like, you know, the Hebrew roots type people that like, oh,

780
00:50:44.760 --> 00:50:48.280
<v Speaker 1>if you say you know yahweh and yes you are,

781
00:50:48.400 --> 00:50:52.119
<v Speaker 1>this is not more powerful than if you say Jesus. Right.

782
00:50:53.119 --> 00:50:55.159
<v Speaker 1>But no, it's a good question. I don't know about that.

783
00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:57.119
<v Speaker 1>I've not read it. I've read some of the Origins

784
00:50:57.159 --> 00:51:00.920
<v Speaker 1>on the First Principles against Celsus, and that's about it.

785
00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:04.440
<v Speaker 1>I've not spent a whole lot of time in origin. Now,

786
00:51:04.519 --> 00:51:06.559
<v Speaker 1>let's see, I've reached out to several more of these

787
00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:09.119
<v Speaker 1>weirdos that have been talking smack, and none of them

788
00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:12.280
<v Speaker 1>will come. So I can't get the Mormon girl to

789
00:51:12.320 --> 00:51:16.320
<v Speaker 1>come in here, and I can't get the reformed veteran

790
00:51:16.400 --> 00:51:21.159
<v Speaker 1>to come in here. Those are always the best, and

791
00:51:21.239 --> 00:51:25.000
<v Speaker 1>I can't get autocorrect to come in here. These are

792
00:51:25.039 --> 00:51:30.639
<v Speaker 1>just like loons, dude. And it's weird because I'll come

793
00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:32.519
<v Speaker 1>in here and say the craziest stuff and then they

794
00:51:32.559 --> 00:51:36.760
<v Speaker 1>act like I can't handle them, and I'm scared to

795
00:51:36.840 --> 00:51:42.159
<v Speaker 1>debate because they just say, crazy shit, what's that? Shistani?

796
00:51:46.880 --> 00:51:48.000
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for having me on man.

797
00:51:48.920 --> 00:51:51.199
<v Speaker 27>So I was looking at the Islamic de Leva recently

798
00:51:51.199 --> 00:51:53.039
<v Speaker 27>and I'm trying to, like, I don't know on board.

799
00:51:53.079 --> 00:51:55.199
<v Speaker 27>I'm trying to think of a way that they can

800
00:51:55.239 --> 00:51:59.079
<v Speaker 27>possibly harmonize it or fix it. And one thing that

801
00:51:59.119 --> 00:52:02.599
<v Speaker 27>they seem to mention is that when we bring up

802
00:52:02.840 --> 00:52:06.079
<v Speaker 27>five forty seven, they'll say that it's only referencing the

803
00:52:06.199 --> 00:52:10.800
<v Speaker 27>law or like the moral teachings, that somehow we're not

804
00:52:10.840 --> 00:52:13.960
<v Speaker 27>supposed to judge by the entire thing. I don't know,

805
00:52:13.960 --> 00:52:14.960
<v Speaker 27>what do you think about that?

806
00:52:17.840 --> 00:52:19.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, but it's not just five forty seven. There's like

807
00:52:22.719 --> 00:52:26.159
<v Speaker 1>fifteen or twenty versus in the Quran. So if you

808
00:52:26.400 --> 00:52:30.519
<v Speaker 1>pile all those up about prior revelation, it's I think

809
00:52:30.519 --> 00:52:31.320
<v Speaker 1>i'm more damning thing.

810
00:52:31.360 --> 00:52:34.159
<v Speaker 27>Yeah, because I think they're being kind of inferential if

811
00:52:34.199 --> 00:52:37.679
<v Speaker 27>they're saying that confirming means only confirming in a general

812
00:52:37.719 --> 00:52:41.119
<v Speaker 27>sense or in a like agrees with.

813
00:52:41.440 --> 00:52:44.199
<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, it really doesn't confirm anything if it just

814
00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:46.400
<v Speaker 1>means to reinterpret to the choral exactly.

815
00:52:46.480 --> 00:52:49.800
<v Speaker 27>But could they also say that, because there's some verses

816
00:52:49.840 --> 00:52:53.519
<v Speaker 27>that talk about distortion or concealment or some Jews writing

817
00:52:53.519 --> 00:52:56.679
<v Speaker 27>a false book, that we're also being inferential if we

818
00:52:56.760 --> 00:53:00.400
<v Speaker 27>say that we're confirming that it confirms wholesale all of

819
00:53:00.400 --> 00:53:03.119
<v Speaker 27>the texts, that we're also being influential in the same right.

820
00:53:05.119 --> 00:53:06.679
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think the point is that when you ask

821
00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:09.119
<v Speaker 1>them how you know which ones are confirmed to which

822
00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:11.440
<v Speaker 1>ones aren't, it just again ends up being one of

823
00:53:11.519 --> 00:53:15.199
<v Speaker 1>the Quran says, So to say that I'm also the

824
00:53:15.199 --> 00:53:17.800
<v Speaker 1>text that doesn't say that the Jews corrupted the text.

825
00:53:17.840 --> 00:53:20.440
<v Speaker 1>It says they twisted it with the tongues and illiterately.

826
00:53:20.480 --> 00:53:21.239
<v Speaker 14>Yeah, I agree, I agree.

827
00:53:21.280 --> 00:53:23.960
<v Speaker 27>I don't think it assumes like wholesale corruption either, because

828
00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:26.199
<v Speaker 27>it's only a party of them and it's only a

829
00:53:26.199 --> 00:53:26.920
<v Speaker 27>part right.

830
00:53:26.960 --> 00:53:29.760
<v Speaker 1>But even if you say it's partial corruption, there's no

831
00:53:30.320 --> 00:53:34.400
<v Speaker 1>epistemic guide has to know what is and isn't corrupt.

832
00:53:34.559 --> 00:53:39.440
<v Speaker 1>For example, they'll say that the Bible predicts Mohammed, and

833
00:53:39.480 --> 00:53:41.599
<v Speaker 1>it's like, but you said the Bible's corrupt, Oh, but

834
00:53:41.679 --> 00:53:44.400
<v Speaker 1>not there. Yeah, exactly right, So all you have to

835
00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:46.800
<v Speaker 1>do it's just a media double standards exact same thing. Mare.

836
00:53:47.079 --> 00:53:49.480
<v Speaker 27>I also see that like in five forty eight, for example,

837
00:53:49.480 --> 00:53:52.199
<v Speaker 27>when they say that it supersedes the prior scripture, that

838
00:53:52.239 --> 00:53:54.760
<v Speaker 27>only kind of reinforces the circle that they have because

839
00:53:54.760 --> 00:53:57.440
<v Speaker 27>they're just going to look through it through the Koran itself.

840
00:53:59.280 --> 00:54:02.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but they're not understanding that that's not answering or

841
00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:05.760
<v Speaker 1>solving the question of what is the epistemic criterion to

842
00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:08.800
<v Speaker 1>know the truth from the false? And it's just a circle.

843
00:54:09.320 --> 00:54:09.960
<v Speaker 1>Like I said to.

844
00:54:09.960 --> 00:54:13.559
<v Speaker 28>Daniel, I don't think I did a video that's like

845
00:54:13.599 --> 00:54:17.519
<v Speaker 28>twenty eight ish minutes where I covered all of the korntexts,

846
00:54:17.920 --> 00:54:19.119
<v Speaker 28>and by the way, in that video, I think I

847
00:54:19.199 --> 00:54:20.039
<v Speaker 28>missed one or two.

848
00:54:21.840 --> 00:54:24.000
<v Speaker 1>So if you list all those out, I think it's

849
00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:24.920
<v Speaker 1>even more devastating.

850
00:54:24.920 --> 00:54:26.639
<v Speaker 27>Do you know what the Yeah, yeah, I saw it actually,

851
00:54:26.719 --> 00:54:28.960
<v Speaker 27>and I looked at all the persons, actually myself, but

852
00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:31.880
<v Speaker 27>it was like some Muslim Like I saw his response

853
00:54:31.920 --> 00:54:36.360
<v Speaker 27>and he was like, well, we confirm the early Muslims.

854
00:54:36.440 --> 00:54:39.840
<v Speaker 27>He said that they believe that they are confirmed in

855
00:54:39.880 --> 00:54:43.360
<v Speaker 27>the sense that they are scriptures of God, even though

856
00:54:43.880 --> 00:54:48.199
<v Speaker 27>some of it is not necessarily completely true or false

857
00:54:48.239 --> 00:54:49.519
<v Speaker 27>or what. I don't know what the hell he said,

858
00:54:49.559 --> 00:54:52.079
<v Speaker 27>but it's just so strange. It's like they have this

859
00:54:52.119 --> 00:54:55.360
<v Speaker 27>weird kind of filtered that they used through I don't know.

860
00:55:05.400 --> 00:55:10.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that filter is called spiritual blindness and low IQ,

861
00:55:10.920 --> 00:55:13.280
<v Speaker 1>which is why in that six hour video, not one

862
00:55:13.280 --> 00:55:16.760
<v Speaker 1>of them could restate what a hypothetical was, no matter

863
00:55:16.760 --> 00:55:20.360
<v Speaker 1>how many times and explanations and examples I gave so

864
00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:26.000
<v Speaker 1>and I don't think Bryson could restate hypothetical either. I

865
00:55:26.039 --> 00:55:27.880
<v Speaker 1>think a lot of these evangelicals, by the way, are

866
00:55:27.880 --> 00:55:39.159
<v Speaker 1>too stupid to actually restated hypothetical. This Mormon girl says

867
00:55:39.199 --> 00:55:41.480
<v Speaker 1>she's gonna come on, she's the one arguing with me

868
00:55:41.559 --> 00:55:45.599
<v Speaker 1>earlier that Albert Pike is not a bad guy. Freemasonry

869
00:55:45.800 --> 00:55:48.920
<v Speaker 1>is just a fraternity. Who cares if it's where Joseph

870
00:55:48.960 --> 00:55:53.679
<v Speaker 1>Smith got the temple rituals from? And she never addressed

871
00:55:54.920 --> 00:55:59.639
<v Speaker 1>the question about Joseph Smith adding versus. So here she is.

872
00:56:00.280 --> 00:56:09.400
<v Speaker 1>You can have the floor and say whatever you'd like. Well,

873
00:56:09.440 --> 00:56:12.840
<v Speaker 1>adding eleven verses to Genesis fifty to predict yourself as

874
00:56:12.920 --> 00:56:15.000
<v Speaker 1>a classic conment tactic.

875
00:56:16.480 --> 00:56:20.199
<v Speaker 17>Give me more con men who have altered the Bible,

876
00:56:20.800 --> 00:56:23.039
<v Speaker 17>in your opinion, altered the Bible.

877
00:56:25.480 --> 00:56:27.519
<v Speaker 1>What would me giving more con men have to do

878
00:56:27.599 --> 00:56:29.719
<v Speaker 1>with whether that action itself is fraudulent?

879
00:56:30.159 --> 00:56:31.440
<v Speaker 17>Validity to context?

880
00:56:34.119 --> 00:56:37.679
<v Speaker 1>Validity to context? I mean, it's a fact in your

881
00:56:38.360 --> 00:56:41.639
<v Speaker 1>JTS translation that he added those verses. It doesn't exist

882
00:56:41.639 --> 00:56:43.400
<v Speaker 1>in any manuscript prior Joseph Smith.

883
00:56:45.960 --> 00:56:50.239
<v Speaker 17>Again, give me examples of other con men who have

884
00:56:50.320 --> 00:56:51.280
<v Speaker 17>done something similar.

885
00:56:56.320 --> 00:57:00.400
<v Speaker 1>There's tons of religious sex cults that have created and

886
00:57:00.440 --> 00:57:03.000
<v Speaker 1>copied and paste of their own texts together.

887
00:57:02.880 --> 00:57:07.199
<v Speaker 17>Like Mohammed, but none of them have far reaching dominance,

888
00:57:07.239 --> 00:57:09.639
<v Speaker 17>like the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterite Saints. So

889
00:57:10.280 --> 00:57:11.000
<v Speaker 17>what's the law?

890
00:57:11.559 --> 00:57:14.719
<v Speaker 1>Islam is far bigger than the LDS.

891
00:57:15.599 --> 00:57:16.639
<v Speaker 17>I disagree with that.

892
00:57:18.360 --> 00:57:20.880
<v Speaker 1>Now there's a million or a billion Muslims in.

893
00:57:20.840 --> 00:57:24.599
<v Speaker 17>The world, all devout practicing or just like claiming when

894
00:57:24.719 --> 00:57:29.559
<v Speaker 17>there's a war ensuing, there are.

895
00:57:29.559 --> 00:57:32.239
<v Speaker 1>One billion professing Muslims in the world. To what degree

896
00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:35.440
<v Speaker 1>that's quote practice has doesn't even come close to the

897
00:57:35.519 --> 00:57:37.280
<v Speaker 1>number of Latter day Saints in the world.

898
00:57:37.280 --> 00:57:40.039
<v Speaker 17>It's a preposterous and you keep track of this number daily.

899
00:57:42.280 --> 00:57:45.559
<v Speaker 1>You could look at any Pew Research poll. There's literally

900
00:57:45.599 --> 00:57:48.719
<v Speaker 1>no comparison between the LDS and the existence of Muslims

901
00:57:48.760 --> 00:57:51.719
<v Speaker 1>in the world. It's a laughable claim.

902
00:57:52.119 --> 00:57:57.039
<v Speaker 17>You're the one. You're the one that is aggressive about it.

903
00:57:58.519 --> 00:58:01.360
<v Speaker 1>Now, now it's a tone fully and you're a victim.

904
00:58:01.519 --> 00:58:03.360
<v Speaker 17>It's oh did I say it was a victim. I'm

905
00:58:03.440 --> 00:58:05.119
<v Speaker 17>just calling you out on the fact that you pander.

906
00:58:06.079 --> 00:58:10.039
<v Speaker 17>You can't actually debate, you can't call me and without

907
00:58:10.119 --> 00:58:13.719
<v Speaker 17>using the words stupid, you can't go without you because.

908
00:58:14.840 --> 00:58:17.559
<v Speaker 1>It's a fallacy to say that. Because there's a lot

909
00:58:17.559 --> 00:58:19.360
<v Speaker 1>of believers, it's therefore true.

910
00:58:19.360 --> 00:58:19.920
<v Speaker 14>You say it.

911
00:58:21.400 --> 00:58:23.199
<v Speaker 29>You're the one language an appeal.

912
00:58:22.920 --> 00:58:27.679
<v Speaker 1>To maths fallacy. It's an appeal to the math's fallacy.

913
00:58:28.119 --> 00:58:32.280
<v Speaker 17>Okay, so you're an orthodox apologist Eastern Is that what

914
00:58:32.320 --> 00:58:32.800
<v Speaker 17>I'm getting.

915
00:58:33.079 --> 00:58:35.800
<v Speaker 1>That's a that's a two two quot white fallacy.

916
00:58:36.039 --> 00:58:38.679
<v Speaker 17>But answer me, what is your religious preference? Because it

917
00:58:38.760 --> 00:58:43.880
<v Speaker 17>says that you are an Eastern Orthodox apologist? Okay, what

918
00:58:43.920 --> 00:58:46.360
<v Speaker 17>does that mean? Where did that even come.

919
00:58:46.159 --> 00:58:51.519
<v Speaker 1>From the church that Jesus set up In the first

920
00:58:51.880 --> 00:58:57.000
<v Speaker 1>proof you can read the church fathers from the first, second, third, fourth, fifth,

921
00:58:57.039 --> 00:59:01.039
<v Speaker 1>sixth century. Okay, they teach, They teach what the Orthodox

922
00:59:01.079 --> 00:59:03.519
<v Speaker 1>Church teaches. If you go read the post Apostolic fathers

923
00:59:03.559 --> 00:59:07.320
<v Speaker 1>like Ignacious Clement, Cyprian Irenaeus.

924
00:59:07.039 --> 00:59:09.400
<v Speaker 17>It just feels ambiguous. Why are you claiming to be

925
00:59:09.440 --> 00:59:10.519
<v Speaker 17>the one true church?

926
00:59:10.679 --> 00:59:16.159
<v Speaker 1>If there's I gave you specific people and their writings.

927
00:59:16.199 --> 00:59:18.480
<v Speaker 17>And I'm giving you specific people in their writings, But

928
00:59:18.599 --> 00:59:22.679
<v Speaker 17>it's still what are you standing for? What are you

929
00:59:22.320 --> 00:59:23.320
<v Speaker 17>that you're standing for?

930
00:59:23.719 --> 00:59:29.519
<v Speaker 1>You haven't even covered the fact.

931
00:59:27.360 --> 00:59:31.039
<v Speaker 17>Standing for Jesus Christ. You're saying ambiguously that your religion

932
00:59:31.599 --> 00:59:32.679
<v Speaker 17>is the one truth I.

933
00:59:32.639 --> 00:59:36.519
<v Speaker 1>Gave you The first, second, third, fourth the Bible comes

934
00:59:36.519 --> 00:59:40.199
<v Speaker 1>from the Orthodox Church. Those church fathers can be read today.

935
00:59:40.280 --> 00:59:43.400
<v Speaker 1>I listed multiple of them to you specifically by name.

936
00:59:43.559 --> 00:59:44.400
<v Speaker 1>Do you want their writings?

937
00:59:44.480 --> 00:59:45.159
<v Speaker 30>I would love that.

938
00:59:45.239 --> 00:59:47.400
<v Speaker 17>I would also love to know why there is such

939
00:59:47.440 --> 00:59:54.199
<v Speaker 17>indifference about the origin of the Bible, translation of the Bible.

940
00:59:55.039 --> 00:59:55.440
<v Speaker 17>Why are.

941
00:59:57.239 --> 00:59:57.760
<v Speaker 19>People are.

942
01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:01.880
<v Speaker 1>Why do you keep interrupting me when you don't have

943
01:00:01.920 --> 01:00:04.239
<v Speaker 1>any clue what you're talking about tonight? You don't even

944
01:00:04.280 --> 01:00:06.320
<v Speaker 1>know what a genetic fallacy is or what a what

945
01:00:06.360 --> 01:00:10.280
<v Speaker 1>a vox popular appeal to masses fallacy is. You're literally

946
01:00:10.320 --> 01:00:12.599
<v Speaker 1>just spitting out fallacies, non stuff. You don't even know

947
01:00:12.639 --> 01:00:12.960
<v Speaker 1>what do you.

948
01:00:12.920 --> 01:00:14.920
<v Speaker 17>Even know what the word fallacy means? Because you throw

949
01:00:14.920 --> 01:00:16.960
<v Speaker 17>this crap out there, and I don't think you have your.

950
01:00:21.239 --> 01:00:23.159
<v Speaker 1>I listed the ones that you're using.

951
01:00:23.519 --> 01:00:24.199
<v Speaker 14>Well, I like.

952
01:00:24.119 --> 01:00:27.519
<v Speaker 17>Claim to the fact that you're not Orthodoxy anything. You're

953
01:00:27.599 --> 01:00:32.920
<v Speaker 17>practicing priestcraft. You rebrand everybody in accordance to your sophistication.

954
01:00:32.360 --> 01:00:35.840
<v Speaker 1>And your your own your own cult believes in a

955
01:00:35.880 --> 01:00:37.800
<v Speaker 1>priest class. What are you talking about?

956
01:00:38.039 --> 01:00:41.000
<v Speaker 17>Class? We believe in the ironic milchistic priesto. They are

957
01:00:41.000 --> 01:00:42.360
<v Speaker 17>Biblical references.

958
01:00:42.519 --> 01:00:44.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah right, No, the ironic PRIs.

959
01:00:44.639 --> 01:00:45.599
<v Speaker 17>Is in your Bible.

960
01:00:46.320 --> 01:00:53.119
<v Speaker 1>Read your Brew seven says the priesthood of Aaron ended

961
01:00:53.280 --> 01:00:55.360
<v Speaker 1>when the milk is the decade was set up with Christ.

962
01:00:55.519 --> 01:00:57.239
<v Speaker 1>Christ does the milk is Adecian priesthood?

963
01:00:57.239 --> 01:01:01.280
<v Speaker 17>You're a judaizing you literally just each just told me

964
01:01:01.400 --> 01:01:03.840
<v Speaker 17>what is the truth and ambiguous?

965
01:01:03.880 --> 01:01:06.800
<v Speaker 1>Hebrew seven? Correct? I told you the truth Hebrew seven, right.

966
01:01:06.960 --> 01:01:09.519
<v Speaker 17>No, you're just ambiguous and you're not a debater.

967
01:01:09.719 --> 01:01:13.360
<v Speaker 1>And Hebrew seven is ambiguous. I saw it literally, the

968
01:01:14.039 --> 01:01:17.639
<v Speaker 1>actual fallacies, the actual writings, the actual chapters and texts.

969
01:01:17.679 --> 01:01:18.360
<v Speaker 1>And you're calling me in.

970
01:01:18.519 --> 01:01:21.159
<v Speaker 17>No, I'm calling you a panderer. Huge difference.

971
01:01:21.679 --> 01:01:24.360
<v Speaker 1>So now it's that homonym. So you just have another fallacy.

972
01:01:24.519 --> 01:01:26.840
<v Speaker 17>And again, this isn't a debate, This isn't even an

973
01:01:26.880 --> 01:01:27.800
<v Speaker 17>intellectual debate.

974
01:01:27.800 --> 01:01:31.119
<v Speaker 1>It is you What what does it say at the

975
01:01:31.159 --> 01:01:33.079
<v Speaker 1>top of this stream?

976
01:01:33.400 --> 01:01:36.239
<v Speaker 17>I thought you called me in for a debate. I

977
01:01:36.239 --> 01:01:39.440
<v Speaker 17>don't care what it says on top of your I

978
01:01:39.440 --> 01:01:43.360
<v Speaker 17>don't care what you are branding this. You brand everything.

979
01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:45.920
<v Speaker 1>You've read everything. What is debate governed by It's governed

980
01:01:45.920 --> 01:01:47.800
<v Speaker 1>by the rules of thought. Those are called the laws

981
01:01:47.800 --> 01:01:50.440
<v Speaker 1>of logic, and when you violate them, they're called fallacies.

982
01:01:50.679 --> 01:01:53.480
<v Speaker 1>And I listed four fallacies already that you've committed.

983
01:01:54.320 --> 01:01:57.119
<v Speaker 17>No, you rebranded me in accordance with your religion, which

984
01:01:57.159 --> 01:01:59.840
<v Speaker 17>is everything you say is as far as fallacy. Everything

985
01:01:59.880 --> 01:02:02.280
<v Speaker 17>you hate about the Mormon religion is everything that your

986
01:02:02.360 --> 01:02:04.880
<v Speaker 17>religion really claims to with the exception of the law

987
01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:06.559
<v Speaker 17>of chastity, which every.

988
01:02:06.320 --> 01:02:09.199
<v Speaker 1>Orthodox do you know what a to do? You know

989
01:02:09.239 --> 01:02:10.320
<v Speaker 1>what a too quo is?

990
01:02:12.000 --> 01:02:12.519
<v Speaker 17>Continue?

991
01:02:12.559 --> 01:02:12.800
<v Speaker 24>What?

992
01:02:12.800 --> 01:02:15.719
<v Speaker 17>What? What is it? Tell me your definition.

993
01:02:15.239 --> 01:02:17.639
<v Speaker 1>Of a fallacy where when I make an argument and

994
01:02:17.679 --> 01:02:20.320
<v Speaker 1>you ask a question back to me, you say, well,

995
01:02:20.320 --> 01:02:22.480
<v Speaker 1>what about you? That's a fallacy?

996
01:02:22.639 --> 01:02:24.239
<v Speaker 17>I mean, is it wrong to do when you are

997
01:02:24.320 --> 01:02:26.679
<v Speaker 17>so accusatory?

998
01:02:27.440 --> 01:02:30.280
<v Speaker 1>So now you're tone policing and playing victory. I'm not playing.

999
01:02:30.960 --> 01:02:33.079
<v Speaker 17>I'm not offended by you. I'm annoyed by you because

1000
01:02:33.079 --> 01:02:35.639
<v Speaker 17>you can't debate. You pander and it's annoying. And like

1001
01:02:35.679 --> 01:02:41.079
<v Speaker 17>I said, your birthday that I need to be focusing on.

1002
01:02:41.119 --> 01:02:42.920
<v Speaker 17>I shouldn't have even jumped in here with you until

1003
01:02:42.920 --> 01:02:44.960
<v Speaker 17>it was a proper debate. You said one on one

1004
01:02:45.000 --> 01:02:46.519
<v Speaker 17>debate about.

1005
01:02:46.480 --> 01:02:49.039
<v Speaker 1>A proper debate is where you abide by the laws

1006
01:02:49.039 --> 01:02:52.840
<v Speaker 1>of logic and don't commit That is, if you.

1007
01:02:52.800 --> 01:02:56.280
<v Speaker 17>Don't debate, you pander. You're just trying to impress these people.

1008
01:02:56.400 --> 01:02:58.599
<v Speaker 1>You don't even know what a debate is. You literally

1009
01:02:58.639 --> 01:03:12.800
<v Speaker 1>just committed multiple fallows. Su irish on you.

1010
01:03:13.039 --> 01:03:21.920
<v Speaker 31>Hello, hello, yeah man, hi jay, I just wanted to

1011
01:03:21.960 --> 01:03:24.039
<v Speaker 31>ask hold on I need a cough.

1012
01:03:26.639 --> 01:03:29.800
<v Speaker 32>I hope you guys understand now why I get frustrated

1013
01:03:29.800 --> 01:03:33.159
<v Speaker 32>when people say, Rachel, why won't you debate the smart women.

1014
01:03:33.440 --> 01:03:35.599
<v Speaker 32>You need to debate the smart women. And I'm like,

1015
01:03:35.960 --> 01:03:39.280
<v Speaker 32>find them, show me where they are, because every time

1016
01:03:39.320 --> 01:03:41.840
<v Speaker 32>a woman comes to debate, that's what you get. They

1017
01:03:41.840 --> 01:03:43.199
<v Speaker 32>have no idea what they're talking about.

1018
01:03:43.360 --> 01:03:45.159
<v Speaker 1>They don't have that that's going to be a great club.

1019
01:03:45.239 --> 01:03:50.320
<v Speaker 1>I mean it's kind of funny, like it was. Every

1020
01:03:50.400 --> 01:03:52.599
<v Speaker 1>every phrase coming out of her mouth was a cell phone.

1021
01:03:52.760 --> 01:03:57.159
<v Speaker 32>Yes, but generally, and I don't even fault women for

1022
01:03:57.280 --> 01:04:00.760
<v Speaker 32>it because I understand, I'm I'm weird, I'm very abnormal

1023
01:04:00.840 --> 01:04:03.280
<v Speaker 32>in this way, and that for most women it's like

1024
01:04:04.119 --> 01:04:06.960
<v Speaker 32>they they don't Yeah, they don't even know how to

1025
01:04:07.239 --> 01:04:09.480
<v Speaker 32>like behave in in that way. They don't know how

1026
01:04:09.519 --> 01:04:13.159
<v Speaker 32>to do anything besides, you know, filter everything through emotions.

1027
01:04:13.320 --> 01:04:16.960
<v Speaker 1>They argue like Bryce their bryceon level debaters.

1028
01:04:17.199 --> 01:04:20.039
<v Speaker 32>Yeah, And I mean that's fine. That's why I usually

1029
01:04:20.119 --> 01:04:22.239
<v Speaker 32>end up if I do debates, I end up debating

1030
01:04:22.239 --> 01:04:24.360
<v Speaker 32>a lot of men. And but then people will get

1031
01:04:24.440 --> 01:04:27.079
<v Speaker 32>upset with me and they'll say, oh, you just you

1032
01:04:27.159 --> 01:04:29.960
<v Speaker 32>pick the lowest hanging for you just debate stupid women.

1033
01:04:30.039 --> 01:04:33.639
<v Speaker 32>You just debate you know, only fans chicks. And I'm like, listen,

1034
01:04:34.079 --> 01:04:37.559
<v Speaker 32>first of all, I've debated multiple women with degrees like

1035
01:04:38.280 --> 01:04:41.320
<v Speaker 32>masters and PhD level degrees, and they're not much better.

1036
01:04:42.039 --> 01:04:44.760
<v Speaker 32>And it's just not how, it's not how. Most women

1037
01:04:44.960 --> 01:04:46.880
<v Speaker 32>they don't even know how to act in a debate.

1038
01:04:46.920 --> 01:04:48.440
<v Speaker 32>They don't even know how to function because they get

1039
01:04:48.519 --> 01:04:50.360
<v Speaker 32>upset and they do what that lady just did.

1040
01:04:50.480 --> 01:04:55.159
<v Speaker 1>So yep, yeah, And that's why typically I don't debate

1041
01:04:55.199 --> 01:04:58.639
<v Speaker 1>women unless they want to come in here and debates. Yeah,

1042
01:04:59.719 --> 01:05:09.039
<v Speaker 1>what's up, jolly, you're coming down? What's your problem? I'm mute, jolly, jolly,

1043
01:05:09.440 --> 01:05:18.239
<v Speaker 1>go ahead, Irish, go ahead, Okay, cool, just to practice.

1044
01:05:18.320 --> 01:05:23.480
<v Speaker 33>I'm an Irish Catholic and I heard you on a

1045
01:05:23.599 --> 01:05:27.320
<v Speaker 33>space It was probably like a week ago where you

1046
01:05:29.559 --> 01:05:32.880
<v Speaker 33>tell me if I'm misrepresenting you or whatever. But you

1047
01:05:33.599 --> 01:05:38.719
<v Speaker 33>were discouraging Orthodox from praying the Rosary because you said

1048
01:05:38.880 --> 01:05:41.400
<v Speaker 33>a lot of the people who are who pray the

1049
01:05:41.519 --> 01:05:49.360
<v Speaker 33>Rosary use how would you say, like ignation, imaginative.

1050
01:05:48.679 --> 01:05:50.239
<v Speaker 1>Prayer, imaginative prayer.

1051
01:05:50.840 --> 01:06:03.159
<v Speaker 33>Yeah, personally, I'm friends with an Orthodox monk who praise

1052
01:06:03.239 --> 01:06:08.639
<v Speaker 33>the Rosary. I don't know, but yeah, yeah, it is

1053
01:06:08.880 --> 01:06:12.760
<v Speaker 33>the norm. It's just it's outside of your tradition as well.

1054
01:06:13.159 --> 01:06:18.599
<v Speaker 33>But I was wondering, so, like in my personal experience,

1055
01:06:19.400 --> 01:06:22.199
<v Speaker 33>the majority of the people I know who pray the

1056
01:06:22.320 --> 01:06:27.119
<v Speaker 33>Rosary do it with a sort of lazio divina instead

1057
01:06:27.119 --> 01:06:35.159
<v Speaker 33>of imagination. Personally, I don't touch imagination. I don't see

1058
01:06:35.159 --> 01:06:36.119
<v Speaker 33>it as very fruitful.

1059
01:06:36.440 --> 01:06:38.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, so I think the thing is the other

1060
01:06:38.719 --> 01:06:43.000
<v Speaker 1>thing about the Rosary is that it implicitly implies that

1061
01:06:43.760 --> 01:06:46.719
<v Speaker 1>Mary really did give that to Dominic. Right, So the

1062
01:06:47.119 --> 01:06:49.079
<v Speaker 1>lore of the Rosary in the Western Church is that

1063
01:06:49.119 --> 01:06:53.840
<v Speaker 1>Mary appears to Saint Dominic the Dominicans, and to pray

1064
01:06:53.880 --> 01:06:57.400
<v Speaker 1>the Rosary suggests that that is the case. And I

1065
01:06:57.400 --> 01:07:00.920
<v Speaker 1>don't believe that that's the case. So a good question.

1066
01:07:00.960 --> 01:07:02.480
<v Speaker 1>I'm not trying to be rude, jolly, what's up?

1067
01:07:02.559 --> 01:07:02.679
<v Speaker 12>You know?

1068
01:07:02.760 --> 01:07:06.320
<v Speaker 11>I'm here to represent either the atheists or the tradcats, whatever,

1069
01:07:06.719 --> 01:07:13.119
<v Speaker 11>whatever side needs bolstering. L I'll argue, well, what are you?

1070
01:07:13.440 --> 01:07:15.000
<v Speaker 1>Why would you not represent the.

1071
01:07:14.920 --> 01:07:16.519
<v Speaker 11>Position that you Actually I'm kind of both.

1072
01:07:19.199 --> 01:07:20.159
<v Speaker 1>How could you beat both?

1073
01:07:20.280 --> 01:07:22.119
<v Speaker 11>Yeah, it's a it's a good question. I don't know.

1074
01:07:22.199 --> 01:07:23.760
<v Speaker 11>And when I when I figured that out. I'll let

1075
01:07:23.840 --> 01:07:24.039
<v Speaker 11>you know.

1076
01:07:25.239 --> 01:07:31.119
<v Speaker 34>Well, are you traskay? Go ahead, I'm just saying, are

1077
01:07:31.159 --> 01:07:33.199
<v Speaker 34>you trashed? You just in.

1078
01:07:33.159 --> 01:07:38.079
<v Speaker 1>Between s la what do you want to say?

1079
01:07:38.480 --> 01:07:39.519
<v Speaker 34>Oh no, I'm not gonna lie.

1080
01:07:39.599 --> 01:07:41.679
<v Speaker 35>I just came up here to tell you to kick

1081
01:07:41.719 --> 01:07:43.519
<v Speaker 35>the woman from before because.

1082
01:07:44.800 --> 01:07:45.159
<v Speaker 14>I don't.

1083
01:07:46.920 --> 01:07:50.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, I mean it was funny. So it's funny

1084
01:07:50.719 --> 01:07:53.519
<v Speaker 1>though that you can't like when people are like super emotional,

1085
01:07:53.639 --> 01:07:55.880
<v Speaker 1>you can't reason with them, like they get into these

1086
01:07:55.960 --> 01:07:59.159
<v Speaker 1>tizzies and then they kind of have a meltdown and

1087
01:07:59.199 --> 01:08:02.760
<v Speaker 1>they spiral and you can't like they've already kind of

1088
01:08:02.800 --> 01:08:08.079
<v Speaker 1>lost the ability to have self control and reasoning. So

1089
01:08:08.159 --> 01:08:10.239
<v Speaker 1>you'll notice every time I pointed out a fallacy, she

1090
01:08:10.360 --> 01:08:12.400
<v Speaker 1>was just like that, it's not a fallacy. There's no

1091
01:08:12.440 --> 01:08:15.039
<v Speaker 1>who cares. Fallacies don't matter. What's a fallacy. It's like

1092
01:08:15.880 --> 01:08:19.640
<v Speaker 1>not thinking about just like machine guns spiraling and the

1093
01:08:19.720 --> 01:08:21.840
<v Speaker 1>reason for that. And I don't blame her too, because

1094
01:08:22.840 --> 01:08:26.239
<v Speaker 1>if Joseph Smith added versus to the Bible, which he did,

1095
01:08:26.319 --> 01:08:28.199
<v Speaker 1>you can go to look on the Mormon website, said

1096
01:08:28.279 --> 01:08:32.560
<v Speaker 1>Genesis fifty, the Joseph Smith translation, then that means he's

1097
01:08:32.560 --> 01:08:34.880
<v Speaker 1>a con man. And if he's a con man, then

1098
01:08:35.039 --> 01:08:38.399
<v Speaker 1>her paradigm collapses. So when you notice and when you

1099
01:08:38.479 --> 01:08:41.520
<v Speaker 1>see these kinds of like crazy reactions from people like

1100
01:08:41.560 --> 01:08:44.199
<v Speaker 1>that or this sort of spiraling, a lot of times

1101
01:08:44.239 --> 01:08:47.199
<v Speaker 1>it's also not just because of emotions or because they're

1102
01:08:47.239 --> 01:08:49.199
<v Speaker 1>a female, or I mean, because a lot of dudes

1103
01:08:49.239 --> 01:08:52.359
<v Speaker 1>and spurgs do it too. Is because of the fear

1104
01:08:53.119 --> 01:08:56.039
<v Speaker 1>that the paradigm might be be wrong, or the fear

1105
01:08:56.119 --> 01:08:58.359
<v Speaker 1>that they might look bad in the debate or whatever.

1106
01:08:58.399 --> 01:08:59.840
<v Speaker 1>So there's a lot of things going to be going

1107
01:08:59.840 --> 01:09:02.520
<v Speaker 1>on in a person's mind that causes them to kind

1108
01:09:02.560 --> 01:09:12.840
<v Speaker 1>of lash out in that way. Anybody else open forum, Atheism, Druidism, Catholicism, Islam, evangelicalism, liberalism,

1109
01:09:13.119 --> 01:09:14.600
<v Speaker 1>it's open for them if you want to hop on.

1110
01:09:15.039 --> 01:09:17.479
<v Speaker 1>I might call it an evening. We got a couple

1111
01:09:18.119 --> 01:09:22.439
<v Speaker 1>singers out of all that. Look for people who I

1112
01:09:22.439 --> 01:09:24.680
<v Speaker 1>guess we'll go to you man. But I don't really

1113
01:09:24.760 --> 01:09:27.399
<v Speaker 1>tend to like to debate people that are debating in

1114
01:09:27.439 --> 01:09:36.119
<v Speaker 1>bad faith. It's just kind of saying feels fake, Well,

1115
01:09:36.159 --> 01:09:37.239
<v Speaker 1>how would it be in good for well?

1116
01:09:37.239 --> 01:09:37.560
<v Speaker 25>How is it?

1117
01:09:37.560 --> 01:09:37.920
<v Speaker 11>What do you mean?

1118
01:09:37.960 --> 01:09:38.279
<v Speaker 3>How is it?

1119
01:09:39.760 --> 01:09:42.760
<v Speaker 11>I was an atheist for twenty five years and then

1120
01:09:42.760 --> 01:09:47.920
<v Speaker 11>I and then I understood, uh, the Catholic Church. So

1121
01:09:48.159 --> 01:09:50.319
<v Speaker 11>I can I can argue from both positions because I

1122
01:09:50.399 --> 01:09:52.960
<v Speaker 11>argued as an atheist for twenty five years.

1123
01:09:53.239 --> 01:09:56.520
<v Speaker 1>It's not in good faith if you no longer believe atheism?

1124
01:09:57.800 --> 01:10:00.560
<v Speaker 11>What do you we can debate? What good FAI means?

1125
01:10:01.920 --> 01:10:05.000
<v Speaker 11>I can? I can still present every argument I ever presented.

1126
01:10:07.199 --> 01:10:08.359
<v Speaker 11>What does it have to do? What does it have

1127
01:10:08.399 --> 01:10:11.880
<v Speaker 11>to do with the debate? That's not what debates. Okay, No,

1128
01:10:11.920 --> 01:10:14.119
<v Speaker 11>you're not a serious person. You're a faggot. You're a loser.

1129
01:10:14.479 --> 01:10:17.840
<v Speaker 11>You're afraid. You're afraid of the debate. Well, come on,

1130
01:10:18.399 --> 01:10:20.399
<v Speaker 11>have at it. Let's go show me how I'm wrong.

1131
01:10:21.720 --> 01:10:25.199
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Well, you choose the positions.

1132
01:10:24.920 --> 01:10:27.520
<v Speaker 11>I'll choose atheism.

1133
01:10:27.600 --> 01:10:32.560
<v Speaker 1>Okay, why is atheism drew because you have no evidence?

1134
01:10:35.159 --> 01:10:37.600
<v Speaker 1>What is the basis for believing in evidence? What does

1135
01:10:37.640 --> 01:10:39.239
<v Speaker 1>that mean the base?

1136
01:10:39.439 --> 01:10:42.119
<v Speaker 11>Well, evidence is how we come to understand truth.

1137
01:10:43.800 --> 01:10:46.159
<v Speaker 1>And how do you know that from an epistemic standpoint?

1138
01:10:50.359 --> 01:10:54.079
<v Speaker 11>Well, it's just it's natural to a human person to

1139
01:10:54.279 --> 01:10:58.560
<v Speaker 11>be exposed to information, and you process the information and

1140
01:10:58.840 --> 01:11:00.960
<v Speaker 11>you say, well I don't know, and then you repeat

1141
01:11:01.000 --> 01:11:03.640
<v Speaker 11>the process and you come to learn so I would

1142
01:11:03.720 --> 01:11:10.319
<v Speaker 11>argue from I guess we'll call it a empirical basis

1143
01:11:10.319 --> 01:11:11.479
<v Speaker 11>of understanding knowledge.

1144
01:11:12.279 --> 01:11:15.079
<v Speaker 1>Okay, do you have universal empirical experience?

1145
01:11:15.760 --> 01:11:18.520
<v Speaker 11>Universal, which is to say that I have the experience

1146
01:11:18.560 --> 01:11:19.880
<v Speaker 11>of all life?

1147
01:11:22.119 --> 01:11:22.199
<v Speaker 13>No.

1148
01:11:22.359 --> 01:11:27.560
<v Speaker 1>In logic, universal claims are anything that's preceded by what's

1149
01:11:27.600 --> 01:11:31.039
<v Speaker 1>called a quantifier, which would be all every et cetera.

1150
01:11:31.239 --> 01:11:34.119
<v Speaker 1>So if all knowledge comes from sense data, is that

1151
01:11:34.199 --> 01:11:41.840
<v Speaker 1>proposition itself found in sense data? Yeah, the proposition itself

1152
01:11:42.079 --> 01:11:43.960
<v Speaker 1>is found in sensitive Where do you find the truth

1153
01:11:43.960 --> 01:11:45.359
<v Speaker 1>of a proposition in sense.

1154
01:11:45.199 --> 01:11:49.239
<v Speaker 11>Data within itself?

1155
01:11:51.279 --> 01:11:52.199
<v Speaker 1>So that's a circle.

1156
01:11:52.199 --> 01:11:55.760
<v Speaker 11>Well, that's what that's what thinking. Thinking is a circle.

1157
01:11:55.840 --> 01:11:57.760
<v Speaker 11>I think Therefore, am you know you just kind of

1158
01:11:57.800 --> 01:12:01.199
<v Speaker 11>loop it around? I mean, you can't if if there

1159
01:12:01.279 --> 01:12:03.840
<v Speaker 11>was a way to understanding you know.

1160
01:12:04.319 --> 01:12:09.039
<v Speaker 1>So you can commit fallacies in logic and debate circular arguments.

1161
01:12:09.239 --> 01:12:11.680
<v Speaker 11>I try not to, but I'm certainly fallible.

1162
01:12:11.960 --> 01:12:14.000
<v Speaker 1>Well you just made a circular argument, So can I

1163
01:12:14.000 --> 01:12:14.920
<v Speaker 1>commit those as well?

1164
01:12:15.000 --> 01:12:15.199
<v Speaker 25>Or not?

1165
01:12:17.199 --> 01:12:17.560
<v Speaker 20>Sure?

1166
01:12:19.279 --> 01:12:21.119
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So you can commit fallacies.

1167
01:12:20.680 --> 01:12:23.560
<v Speaker 11>And no you shouldn't, you know. I'm just saying that

1168
01:12:23.600 --> 01:12:25.640
<v Speaker 11>you can if you want to try to do that,

1169
01:12:25.680 --> 01:12:27.199
<v Speaker 11>and if I want to try to pick at it

1170
01:12:27.239 --> 01:12:28.920
<v Speaker 11>and try to pry it apart and show you where

1171
01:12:28.960 --> 01:12:31.079
<v Speaker 11>I'm wrong. That's what the fun of a debate is.

1172
01:12:31.159 --> 01:12:33.079
<v Speaker 11>But you know, this belief that oh I got the

1173
01:12:33.159 --> 01:12:36.640
<v Speaker 11>right way of knowing things, Well you don't because I

1174
01:12:36.640 --> 01:12:37.279
<v Speaker 11>don't even know.

1175
01:12:37.640 --> 01:12:39.560
<v Speaker 1>You have no clue. You don't even know what you're

1176
01:12:39.640 --> 01:12:41.960
<v Speaker 1>arguing or what the debate is like. That debate already

1177
01:12:41.960 --> 01:12:43.000
<v Speaker 1>happened and you already missed.

1178
01:12:43.199 --> 01:12:43.600
<v Speaker 11>Is that what.

1179
01:12:45.880 --> 01:12:47.760
<v Speaker 1>You argued? That fallacies can be done?

1180
01:12:47.800 --> 01:12:50.720
<v Speaker 11>And that's not what I said. All you're twisting my words.

1181
01:12:50.960 --> 01:12:55.199
<v Speaker 11>You you said, meaning you like, would I allow you

1182
01:12:55.279 --> 01:12:57.479
<v Speaker 11>to do? And I said, yes, you're permitted.

1183
01:12:57.960 --> 01:13:00.279
<v Speaker 1>I mean, can you is it? Does it? Can youolate

1184
01:13:00.279 --> 01:13:02.000
<v Speaker 1>the laws of logic? Is what I'm asking? Because the

1185
01:13:02.000 --> 01:13:02.960
<v Speaker 1>circular argument.

1186
01:13:02.680 --> 01:13:05.159
<v Speaker 11>Doesn't know you cannot violate the laws of logic.

1187
01:13:06.239 --> 01:13:08.359
<v Speaker 1>Okay, then why did you make a circular argument that

1188
01:13:08.439 --> 01:13:10.640
<v Speaker 1>knowledge just is what it is, meaning just is what

1189
01:13:10.760 --> 01:13:11.000
<v Speaker 1>it is.

1190
01:13:11.439 --> 01:13:12.479
<v Speaker 11>That's not a flaw.

1191
01:13:14.079 --> 01:13:16.640
<v Speaker 1>It's a circular argument. You already said it was a circle.

1192
01:13:16.880 --> 01:13:22.359
<v Speaker 1>That is all law. It's a fallacy called circular argumentation.

1193
01:13:23.199 --> 01:13:27.199
<v Speaker 1>How come this is why you're not a good?

1194
01:13:28.159 --> 01:13:28.199
<v Speaker 3>No?

1195
01:13:28.800 --> 01:13:29.359
<v Speaker 12>No.

1196
01:13:29.760 --> 01:13:32.239
<v Speaker 11>The reality is that nobody can have a complete and

1197
01:13:32.279 --> 01:13:34.399
<v Speaker 11>total understanding of absolutely.

1198
01:13:34.560 --> 01:13:36.760
<v Speaker 1>That's not what the claim is. I didn't ask you

1199
01:13:36.800 --> 01:13:38.159
<v Speaker 1>about completely understanding.

1200
01:13:38.479 --> 01:13:42.000
<v Speaker 11>I'm making is that you have to you have to

1201
01:13:42.119 --> 01:13:48.079
<v Speaker 11>approach all knowledge. Did you make aular argument posture right limited?

1202
01:13:48.319 --> 01:13:50.279
<v Speaker 1>Did you make a circular argument? You said it was

1203
01:13:50.279 --> 01:13:52.800
<v Speaker 1>a circle, you said it was self referencing earlier, you

1204
01:13:52.840 --> 01:13:57.239
<v Speaker 1>said descartes right. Yeah, Okay, so you made a circular argument,

1205
01:13:57.279 --> 01:13:57.720
<v Speaker 1>and that is.

1206
01:13:59.359 --> 01:14:02.600
<v Speaker 11>Nonsense. You're not You're not You're not actually debating anything.

1207
01:14:02.640 --> 01:14:04.319
<v Speaker 11>You're debating the nature of debate.

1208
01:14:04.439 --> 01:14:06.439
<v Speaker 1>I'm pointing out the fallacy of where you lost.

1209
01:14:06.439 --> 01:14:08.880
<v Speaker 11>You want you want to sit there and jerk off

1210
01:14:08.880 --> 01:14:11.000
<v Speaker 11>over terms because you went to school and you learn

1211
01:14:11.039 --> 01:14:12.760
<v Speaker 11>to what all these words mean, but that that has

1212
01:14:12.800 --> 01:14:15.239
<v Speaker 11>nothing to do with the truth or knowledge and understanding

1213
01:14:15.600 --> 01:14:16.000
<v Speaker 11>the debate.

1214
01:14:16.319 --> 01:14:18.319
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, so you already lost the debate.

1215
01:14:18.319 --> 01:14:20.760
<v Speaker 11>Okay, well that's what you say, Like, let's see some hands.

1216
01:14:20.800 --> 01:14:23.039
<v Speaker 11>Does anybody I think that it's over?

1217
01:14:23.520 --> 01:14:26.760
<v Speaker 1>Nobody? And you're going to be laughed at the entire chat.

1218
01:14:26.640 --> 01:14:27.399
<v Speaker 11>Let them laugh at me.

1219
01:14:28.640 --> 01:14:31.439
<v Speaker 1>Good, keep going, because you said that fallacies don't matter.

1220
01:14:31.520 --> 01:14:33.800
<v Speaker 11>So you know what I said again, You know.

1221
01:14:34.920 --> 01:14:38.960
<v Speaker 1>It doesn't matter what terms and what fancy works because fallacies.

1222
01:14:39.439 --> 01:14:42.159
<v Speaker 11>You are a bad faith debater because you take something

1223
01:14:42.199 --> 01:14:44.079
<v Speaker 11>I said is.

1224
01:14:44.199 --> 01:14:49.520
<v Speaker 1>What a liar? Literally, everybody tell me that guy down?

1225
01:14:49.600 --> 01:15:01.880
<v Speaker 1>What a complete clown? H Yeah? An era.

1226
01:15:05.000 --> 01:15:09.960
<v Speaker 22>So are we still discussing existence of God or not?

1227
01:15:13.319 --> 01:15:13.760
<v Speaker 12>Sure?

1228
01:15:15.119 --> 01:15:15.239
<v Speaker 8>So?

1229
01:15:17.600 --> 01:15:17.760
<v Speaker 36>Well?

1230
01:15:18.079 --> 01:15:23.359
<v Speaker 22>Uh so, because you do not have the whole experience

1231
01:15:23.359 --> 01:15:28.119
<v Speaker 22>of universe, how can you even make a claim that

1232
01:15:28.720 --> 01:15:31.960
<v Speaker 22>because you couldn't find the evidence, then there is no

1233
01:15:32.039 --> 01:15:39.439
<v Speaker 22>evidence because you are made Yeah, while you are making

1234
01:15:39.479 --> 01:15:43.119
<v Speaker 22>your laziness a burden on you.

1235
01:15:43.079 --> 01:15:45.640
<v Speaker 1>Don't even understand the argument. Are you referring to what

1236
01:15:45.640 --> 01:15:46.680
<v Speaker 1>I said to the previous guy?

1237
01:15:47.880 --> 01:15:51.119
<v Speaker 22>Yeah, sort of, because that's from where I joined the debate.

1238
01:15:52.079 --> 01:15:53.520
<v Speaker 22>Would you like to explain it further?

1239
01:15:55.079 --> 01:15:58.039
<v Speaker 1>Right? So, he made a universal claim that all knowledge

1240
01:15:58.039 --> 01:16:00.760
<v Speaker 1>comes from sense data, and I'm saying that there's two ways,

1241
01:16:00.800 --> 01:16:04.239
<v Speaker 1>two levels to refute that. One is that the proposition

1242
01:16:04.319 --> 01:16:07.520
<v Speaker 1>itself is not found in sense data. And also, as

1243
01:16:07.560 --> 01:16:11.199
<v Speaker 1>an empiricist, he doesn't have access to universal knowledge, which

1244
01:16:11.199 --> 01:16:15.119
<v Speaker 1>the word all quantifies. So it's a self refuting statement

1245
01:16:15.159 --> 01:16:16.640
<v Speaker 1>on two levels.

1246
01:16:18.319 --> 01:16:24.399
<v Speaker 22>So okay, So what is your stin on God? Because

1247
01:16:24.520 --> 01:16:27.840
<v Speaker 22>you cannot find the empirical evidence of it, you believe

1248
01:16:27.880 --> 01:16:28.680
<v Speaker 22>it doesn't exist.

1249
01:16:29.680 --> 01:16:32.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but you don't believe in empirical evidence for truth

1250
01:16:32.319 --> 01:16:34.640
<v Speaker 1>or the claims either, Based on what I just argued

1251
01:16:34.680 --> 01:16:37.680
<v Speaker 1>to you about empirical clues right truth claims themselves? Can

1252
01:16:37.720 --> 01:16:40.560
<v Speaker 1>you show me the empirical evidence for the past, for

1253
01:16:40.640 --> 01:16:45.920
<v Speaker 1>the self, for time, for meaning, for mathematics, for universal propositions,

1254
01:16:46.000 --> 01:16:49.079
<v Speaker 1>categories logic? Can you show me that? Please? Where are

1255
01:16:49.119 --> 01:16:50.159
<v Speaker 1>those under the microscope?

1256
01:16:50.800 --> 01:16:50.960
<v Speaker 11>Oh?

1257
01:16:50.960 --> 01:16:53.079
<v Speaker 22>Well, you wanted under the microscope?

1258
01:16:54.159 --> 01:16:55.359
<v Speaker 19>What is empirical?

1259
01:16:55.520 --> 01:16:55.680
<v Speaker 3>Wait?

1260
01:16:55.760 --> 01:16:58.960
<v Speaker 22>Wait what if it is not material, then how would

1261
01:16:58.960 --> 01:17:00.000
<v Speaker 22>you find it empirically?

1262
01:17:02.399 --> 01:17:04.960
<v Speaker 1>I guess see you don't even understand or.

1263
01:17:05.079 --> 01:17:06.000
<v Speaker 22>You don't understand.

1264
01:17:06.760 --> 01:17:11.359
<v Speaker 1>Just I reiterated this for you. Okay, let's do this.

1265
01:17:11.640 --> 01:17:14.439
<v Speaker 1>Can you restate what my argument is? Restay the hypothetical?

1266
01:17:16.199 --> 01:17:17.479
<v Speaker 1>Can you resay the hypothetic?

1267
01:17:17.680 --> 01:17:17.840
<v Speaker 34>No?

1268
01:17:18.319 --> 01:17:20.720
<v Speaker 22>I cannot because it is a word salid. It's a

1269
01:17:20.760 --> 01:17:22.239
<v Speaker 22>word salad.

1270
01:17:22.720 --> 01:17:26.880
<v Speaker 1>Basic terms in logic like quantifier and empirical claims.

1271
01:17:26.560 --> 01:17:32.279
<v Speaker 22>Are asking question. You are you're not quantified as material?

1272
01:17:32.319 --> 01:17:35.279
<v Speaker 22>How would you quantify it? How many can you of?

1273
01:17:35.319 --> 01:17:36.319
<v Speaker 22>What do you want?

1274
01:17:36.800 --> 01:17:39.720
<v Speaker 1>You think epistemological is a word solid because you're an

1275
01:17:39.800 --> 01:17:42.680
<v Speaker 1>un you're an uneducated maybe.

1276
01:17:42.079 --> 01:17:45.920
<v Speaker 22>But so because you are educated, explain me.

1277
01:17:46.439 --> 01:17:49.079
<v Speaker 1>So can you restate a hypothetical that I made? What's

1278
01:17:49.119 --> 01:17:50.239
<v Speaker 1>the hypothetical I'm saying.

1279
01:17:50.319 --> 01:17:52.800
<v Speaker 22>I'm asking a simple question that what if it is

1280
01:17:52.840 --> 01:17:53.800
<v Speaker 22>not material?

1281
01:17:54.520 --> 01:17:54.720
<v Speaker 34>What?

1282
01:17:55.439 --> 01:17:58.279
<v Speaker 1>I answered your question by pointing out that you yourself

1283
01:17:58.479 --> 01:18:01.359
<v Speaker 1>believe in multiple things that are not material, and so

1284
01:18:01.439 --> 01:18:03.880
<v Speaker 1>therefore everything that we but we believe in or that

1285
01:18:03.920 --> 01:18:08.000
<v Speaker 1>we know is therefore not reducible to materialism. There's no

1286
01:18:08.079 --> 01:18:11.279
<v Speaker 1>it disproves reductionism. But you don't even understand the argument.

1287
01:18:11.560 --> 01:18:15.720
<v Speaker 22>No, No, you are just you know, uh, assassinating me

1288
01:18:16.119 --> 01:18:16.760
<v Speaker 22>rather than.

1289
01:18:19.760 --> 01:18:26.520
<v Speaker 1>This conversation. You don't even know what's happening. Like this

1290
01:18:26.600 --> 01:18:30.159
<v Speaker 1>is crazy level stuff. It's like talking to a child.

1291
01:18:30.359 --> 01:18:32.920
<v Speaker 1>In all these cases, it's pretty wild, and you think

1292
01:18:32.960 --> 01:18:35.560
<v Speaker 1>I'm being mean, and it's like, you know, I've restated

1293
01:18:35.600 --> 01:18:38.960
<v Speaker 1>it politely for that guy about four times, and you

1294
01:18:39.039 --> 01:18:44.159
<v Speaker 1>understand atheists and these arrogant people, they need to have

1295
01:18:44.239 --> 01:18:48.840
<v Speaker 1>their position destroyed. Okay, it's not mean to call out

1296
01:18:48.880 --> 01:18:56.119
<v Speaker 1>these people's foolishness and show that it's foolish. And when

1297
01:18:56.119 --> 01:18:59.920
<v Speaker 1>I restate it, what does he say? Word salad, basic terms,

1298
01:19:00.079 --> 01:19:00.800
<v Speaker 1>our word solid?

1299
01:19:10.039 --> 01:19:17.079
<v Speaker 37>Go ahead, Hello, I have a question about Yeah, what's up?

1300
01:19:17.199 --> 01:19:20.319
<v Speaker 37>I have a question about like versions and compilations of

1301
01:19:20.359 --> 01:19:23.079
<v Speaker 37>the Quran. I don't really have like an argument to make.

1302
01:19:25.960 --> 01:19:28.920
<v Speaker 1>I'm not super knowledgeable in the history of the Koran.

1303
01:19:29.039 --> 01:19:31.840
<v Speaker 1>So you might want to look up like Jay Jay

1304
01:19:31.840 --> 01:19:34.439
<v Speaker 1>Smith or whatever that guy's name is, or probably even

1305
01:19:34.479 --> 01:19:47.960
<v Speaker 1>Sam Schimun knows more about that than me. Feminism, feminism,

1306
01:19:48.000 --> 01:19:50.079
<v Speaker 1>feminism is evil. I'm mute. If you want to.

1307
01:19:50.039 --> 01:20:00.600
<v Speaker 10>Talk, Yes, hi, Jay, I was wonder if it be

1308
01:20:00.680 --> 01:20:07.199
<v Speaker 10>all right if I read something about the law of identity. Okay.

1309
01:20:07.239 --> 01:20:11.239
<v Speaker 10>This is from the seventh chapter the second part of

1310
01:20:11.680 --> 01:20:15.880
<v Speaker 10>Otto Weininger's book Sex and Character from nineteen oh three.

1311
01:20:16.239 --> 01:20:19.279
<v Speaker 10>So what he writes is in logic. It is a

1312
01:20:19.279 --> 01:20:21.840
<v Speaker 10>matter of the true meaning of the principle of identity

1313
01:20:22.159 --> 01:20:26.159
<v Speaker 10>and of contradiction. The many controversies regarding their precedence over

1314
01:20:26.199 --> 01:20:29.119
<v Speaker 10>each other and the most correct form of their statement

1315
01:20:29.159 --> 01:20:32.319
<v Speaker 10>is less an issue here. The proposition A equals A

1316
01:20:32.560 --> 01:20:36.359
<v Speaker 10>is immediately certain and evident. It is additionally the original

1317
01:20:36.399 --> 01:20:39.720
<v Speaker 10>template of truth for all other propositions. If someone were

1318
01:20:39.760 --> 01:20:42.479
<v Speaker 10>to contradict it somewhere, as so often, in a special

1319
01:20:42.600 --> 01:20:45.920
<v Speaker 10>judgment of the predicate concept something we're asserted of the subject,

1320
01:20:45.920 --> 01:20:48.960
<v Speaker 10>which would contradict the concept of the same, we would

1321
01:20:48.960 --> 01:20:52.039
<v Speaker 10>consider it to be wrong, and in the end, if

1322
01:20:52.039 --> 01:20:55.079
<v Speaker 10>we reflect, this proposition would emerge before us as the

1323
01:20:55.199 --> 01:20:58.359
<v Speaker 10>law of our verticality. It is a principle of right

1324
01:20:58.399 --> 01:21:01.319
<v Speaker 10>and wrong, and he who deems it a tautology which

1325
01:21:01.319 --> 01:21:03.920
<v Speaker 10>would state nothing and would not promote our thinking. As

1326
01:21:03.960 --> 01:21:06.039
<v Speaker 10>this has so often happened with Hegel and later with

1327
01:21:06.119 --> 01:21:09.000
<v Speaker 10>most all empiricists, this is not the only point of

1328
01:21:09.039 --> 01:21:13.800
<v Speaker 10>contact between apparently so irreconcilable opposites. He is completely correct,

1329
01:21:13.880 --> 01:21:16.640
<v Speaker 10>but has understood the nature of the proposition poorly. A

1330
01:21:16.760 --> 01:21:19.800
<v Speaker 10>equals a. The principle of all truth cannot itself be

1331
01:21:19.880 --> 01:21:23.479
<v Speaker 10>a special truth. Whoever finds a proposition of identity or

1332
01:21:23.520 --> 01:21:26.720
<v Speaker 10>of contradiction void of content, has only himself to blame.

1333
01:21:27.439 --> 01:21:29.840
<v Speaker 10>He presumed to find special thoughts in them, which he

1334
01:21:29.880 --> 01:21:32.840
<v Speaker 10>hoped was an enrichment of his stock of positive knowledge.

1335
01:21:33.600 --> 01:21:37.800
<v Speaker 10>But those propositions are not themselves realizations special acts of thinking,

1336
01:21:38.039 --> 01:21:40.920
<v Speaker 10>but rather the gauge which has laid to all acts

1337
01:21:40.960 --> 01:21:44.479
<v Speaker 10>of thinking. This cannot itself be an active thinking, which

1338
01:21:44.520 --> 01:21:46.800
<v Speaker 10>somehow would allow itself to be compared with the others,

1339
01:21:47.359 --> 01:21:50.000
<v Speaker 10>the norm of thinking cannot itself be situated in thought.

1340
01:21:50.640 --> 01:21:53.199
<v Speaker 10>The proposition of identity adds nothing to our knowledge. It

1341
01:21:53.239 --> 01:21:55.640
<v Speaker 10>does not increase an abundance, which it much more utterly

1342
01:21:55.880 --> 01:21:59.000
<v Speaker 10>founds in the first place. The proposition of identity is

1343
01:21:59.000 --> 01:22:00.359
<v Speaker 10>either nothing or it is everything.

1344
01:22:06.319 --> 01:22:06.479
<v Speaker 14>Yeah.

1345
01:22:06.479 --> 01:22:08.359
<v Speaker 1>I don't really hear anything there I would disagree with.

1346
01:22:08.880 --> 01:22:10.319
<v Speaker 1>Did you have a reason.

1347
01:22:10.119 --> 01:22:10.640
<v Speaker 14>For the quote?

1348
01:22:11.079 --> 01:22:13.199
<v Speaker 10>I thought maybe it could shed some light on recent.

1349
01:22:12.880 --> 01:22:21.560
<v Speaker 1>Discussions and what in particular.

1350
01:22:23.199 --> 01:22:27.800
<v Speaker 10>Maybe saying that a circular argument isn't valid because all

1351
01:22:27.880 --> 01:22:31.399
<v Speaker 10>arguments reduced to a restatement of the proposition of identity

1352
01:22:31.399 --> 01:22:32.199
<v Speaker 10>in the end, do they not?

1353
01:22:34.600 --> 01:22:40.000
<v Speaker 1>Oh you mean the guy, yes, yes, Oh yeah, I

1354
01:22:40.000 --> 01:22:42.079
<v Speaker 1>think it would. But I don't think that guy is

1355
01:22:42.319 --> 01:22:46.760
<v Speaker 1>interested in actually learning what the problem is with that.

1356
01:22:46.960 --> 01:22:49.600
<v Speaker 1>But you're absolutely right that it definitely sheds light on it.

1357
01:22:49.640 --> 01:22:51.439
<v Speaker 1>But I think that I think somebody people are staying

1358
01:22:51.439 --> 01:22:53.720
<v Speaker 1>in the chat that guys just troubles He just goes

1359
01:22:53.720 --> 01:22:59.039
<v Speaker 1>around and pretends to be positions. So I'm trying to

1360
01:22:59.079 --> 01:23:02.640
<v Speaker 1>get this other got to come to debate. I don't

1361
01:23:02.680 --> 01:23:11.319
<v Speaker 1>know what you want anybody else. It's open for him

1362
01:23:11.359 --> 01:23:20.319
<v Speaker 1>for atheist Muslims, Catholics, druids, liberals, Evangelicals, Calvinists, Protestants. It's

1363
01:23:20.359 --> 01:23:22.479
<v Speaker 1>been a while when we already got another four hundred

1364
01:23:22.479 --> 01:23:24.960
<v Speaker 1>people in here again, so we're back to where we were.

1365
01:23:25.279 --> 01:23:29.720
<v Speaker 1>I recreated this room for those that left, so Jimbob

1366
01:23:29.800 --> 01:23:34.079
<v Speaker 1>and FDA. So when I was closing out the other room,

1367
01:23:34.840 --> 01:23:37.960
<v Speaker 1>this druid came on and he wanted the debate druidism

1368
01:23:38.840 --> 01:23:41.960
<v Speaker 1>and the space cut out. And so then when I

1369
01:23:42.000 --> 01:23:46.000
<v Speaker 1>came back and did it, he wasn't even a serious person.

1370
01:23:46.119 --> 01:23:51.199
<v Speaker 1>So William Tober was up. He was like a drunk druid.

1371
01:23:51.359 --> 01:23:58.359
<v Speaker 1>So hello, go ahead, Yeah.

1372
01:23:58.239 --> 01:23:59.920
<v Speaker 38>Yeah, I just wanted to say I respect there was

1373
01:24:00.159 --> 01:24:02.760
<v Speaker 38>that you do, and I'm very glad to be part

1374
01:24:02.760 --> 01:24:05.479
<v Speaker 38>of this group. So that's all I wanted to do.

1375
01:24:06.359 --> 01:24:10.239
<v Speaker 1>Thank you. Anything on your mind, any comments, questions, topics,

1376
01:24:10.399 --> 01:24:11.079
<v Speaker 1>debates me.

1377
01:24:11.199 --> 01:24:13.079
<v Speaker 38>No, I have my own religious battles that have to

1378
01:24:13.119 --> 01:24:15.279
<v Speaker 38>deal with my church, but I'm not really trying to

1379
01:24:15.279 --> 01:24:19.159
<v Speaker 38>put it out there in public, you know, So okay, sure,

1380
01:24:19.640 --> 01:24:21.640
<v Speaker 38>just wanted to stop by and say I respect you.

1381
01:24:23.600 --> 01:24:26.840
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's actually I'm appreciate the kind of words astute.

1382
01:24:32.479 --> 01:24:32.760
<v Speaker 12>I mean.

1383
01:24:34.960 --> 01:24:39.640
<v Speaker 39>Hey, So I came into the discussion a little bit

1384
01:24:39.720 --> 01:24:43.479
<v Speaker 39>late to I think three people ago, where the guy

1385
01:24:43.640 --> 01:24:47.600
<v Speaker 39>was arguing in bad faith. I just wanted to hear

1386
01:24:47.640 --> 01:24:50.800
<v Speaker 39>about that conversation because I don't I didn't really understand

1387
01:24:50.800 --> 01:24:55.000
<v Speaker 39>what his point was. That there's empirical data that proves

1388
01:24:55.039 --> 01:24:58.319
<v Speaker 39>that everything exists or that God exists. Is that what

1389
01:24:58.359 --> 01:25:00.359
<v Speaker 39>he was saying and what was.

1390
01:25:00.319 --> 01:25:03.720
<v Speaker 1>Your No, he was arguing in bad faith as an atheist,

1391
01:25:03.840 --> 01:25:06.800
<v Speaker 1>that all that we know is sense data. So he

1392
01:25:06.920 --> 01:25:09.600
<v Speaker 1>was just arguing not eve empiricism. And I made two

1393
01:25:09.760 --> 01:25:14.439
<v Speaker 1>arguments to show that that's self refuting. One that the

1394
01:25:14.560 --> 01:25:18.159
<v Speaker 1>claim all knowledge comes from sense data is not found

1395
01:25:18.239 --> 01:25:22.479
<v Speaker 1>in sense data, and so it's self refuting. Second argument,

1396
01:25:22.600 --> 01:25:25.720
<v Speaker 1>the claim that all knowledge comes from sense data is

1397
01:25:25.760 --> 01:25:29.920
<v Speaker 1>a universal claim, which an empiricist by definition cannot have

1398
01:25:30.479 --> 01:25:33.600
<v Speaker 1>because you would have to have empirical sense data of

1399
01:25:33.720 --> 01:25:34.479
<v Speaker 1>all reality.

1400
01:25:35.199 --> 01:25:40.640
<v Speaker 39>So can you have empirical sense data that like something

1401
01:25:40.680 --> 01:25:42.960
<v Speaker 39>maybe not as profound as God existing, but like I

1402
01:25:42.960 --> 01:25:46.880
<v Speaker 39>think you had mentioned, like mathematics or history existing, or

1403
01:25:46.920 --> 01:25:50.239
<v Speaker 39>that we've had his or you know, yesterday has existed,

1404
01:25:50.279 --> 01:25:52.319
<v Speaker 39>the past has existed at some point.

1405
01:25:52.920 --> 01:25:55.560
<v Speaker 1>No, none of those things are in empirical sense data.

1406
01:25:55.880 --> 01:26:01.760
<v Speaker 1>That's why I specifically listed non empirical, immaterial, abstract invariant categories,

1407
01:26:01.800 --> 01:26:05.680
<v Speaker 1>and things that are not empirical, such as the past,

1408
01:26:05.840 --> 01:26:13.079
<v Speaker 1>the self meaning time. Okay, so universal's logic.

1409
01:26:13.760 --> 01:26:20.239
<v Speaker 39>And again I'm very novice. So empirical data. You said

1410
01:26:20.479 --> 01:26:23.680
<v Speaker 39>you can't make the claim that history exists based off

1411
01:26:23.680 --> 01:26:25.279
<v Speaker 39>of empirical data. Is that what you were.

1412
01:26:25.199 --> 01:26:29.960
<v Speaker 1>Saying the past is not a present empirical sense data

1413
01:26:30.039 --> 01:26:36.720
<v Speaker 1>reality you do not sense through smell to and there's

1414
01:26:36.760 --> 01:26:39.039
<v Speaker 1>a there's a giant list of all kinds of things

1415
01:26:39.079 --> 01:26:42.079
<v Speaker 1>that nobody empirically the senses, and yet we believe.

1416
01:26:42.119 --> 01:26:47.000
<v Speaker 39>Can you make the argument that archaeological like fossils are

1417
01:26:47.439 --> 01:26:48.159
<v Speaker 39>a form.

1418
01:26:47.920 --> 01:26:52.520
<v Speaker 1>Of those are not the past. Those are physical objects

1419
01:26:52.640 --> 01:26:55.159
<v Speaker 1>that existed in the past, but they do not prove

1420
01:26:55.239 --> 01:26:56.800
<v Speaker 1>the existence of the past.

1421
01:26:57.119 --> 01:27:00.319
<v Speaker 39>I see, So you can't visit I guess in a

1422
01:27:00.640 --> 01:27:03.600
<v Speaker 39>Layman sterns you cannot like physically touch, feel, or see

1423
01:27:03.600 --> 01:27:04.399
<v Speaker 39>the past.

1424
01:27:05.760 --> 01:27:08.640
<v Speaker 1>Or time. That's why time, for example, of con says

1425
01:27:08.760 --> 01:27:11.600
<v Speaker 1>time is a transcendental category. I would agree with that

1426
01:27:12.520 --> 01:27:15.680
<v Speaker 1>time is one of those transcenental categories that's necessary for

1427
01:27:15.880 --> 01:27:21.680
<v Speaker 1>human knowledge. That it is not a direct, directly perceived

1428
01:27:21.760 --> 01:27:24.159
<v Speaker 1>object of immediate sense.

1429
01:27:24.239 --> 01:27:29.279
<v Speaker 39>Data, So then that that means memory can't be an

1430
01:27:29.359 --> 01:27:31.359
<v Speaker 39>example of that either, correct.

1431
01:27:31.760 --> 01:27:34.119
<v Speaker 1>Now, memory is another example that's talk in you.

1432
01:27:34.319 --> 01:27:34.640
<v Speaker 3>Okay?

1433
01:27:35.520 --> 01:27:39.560
<v Speaker 39>And then my final question, So I'm not an atheist,

1434
01:27:39.560 --> 01:27:41.760
<v Speaker 39>but I have a lot of atheist friends. So what

1435
01:27:41.960 --> 01:27:45.039
<v Speaker 39>would you say, And you've probably answered this like hundreds

1436
01:27:45.039 --> 01:27:47.680
<v Speaker 39>of times, what would you say is the argument for

1437
01:27:47.840 --> 01:27:50.840
<v Speaker 39>God to God's existence? You don't have to like break

1438
01:27:50.880 --> 01:27:53.119
<v Speaker 39>it down, but maybe some references that I can read.

1439
01:27:53.960 --> 01:27:56.960
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, well, any of the arguments and videos that

1440
01:27:56.960 --> 01:27:59.720
<v Speaker 1>we've done debating the atheists stuff on mall and you,

1441
01:28:00.439 --> 01:28:04.319
<v Speaker 1>the Matt Della Hunty, Alex Malpass, any of those debates,

1442
01:28:04.399 --> 01:28:08.560
<v Speaker 1>would you would find me making this argument that knowledge

1443
01:28:08.960 --> 01:28:13.359
<v Speaker 1>in any sense, any claim to knowledge, or any possibility

1444
01:28:13.359 --> 01:28:17.119
<v Speaker 1>of knowledge, requires the preconditions of knowledge, which are some

1445
01:28:17.159 --> 01:28:21.399
<v Speaker 1>of those categories that I listed, such as meaning such

1446
01:28:21.439 --> 01:28:30.079
<v Speaker 1>as identity, over time, the external world, universal universals, logic, language.

1447
01:28:30.600 --> 01:28:35.199
<v Speaker 1>None of these things are reducible to sense data, and

1448
01:28:35.279 --> 01:28:39.359
<v Speaker 1>yet we believe in them as preconditions for the possibility

1449
01:28:39.359 --> 01:28:42.960
<v Speaker 1>of knowledge whatsoever. So then the question is where are those,

1450
01:28:43.159 --> 01:28:47.720
<v Speaker 1>how are those and what's the justification for those? For us?

1451
01:28:48.239 --> 01:28:52.239
<v Speaker 1>A divine, omniscient being with an omniscient mind, with personhood

1452
01:28:52.279 --> 01:28:57.479
<v Speaker 1>with intentionality, and a universe made with purpose or tilos.

1453
01:28:58.079 --> 01:29:01.439
<v Speaker 1>All of those things are grounded in God, and God

1454
01:29:01.520 --> 01:29:04.399
<v Speaker 1>is the only type of being that could ground those things.

1455
01:29:04.520 --> 01:29:06.800
<v Speaker 1>So the possibility of knowledge presupposes God.

1456
01:29:06.920 --> 01:29:08.239
<v Speaker 12>Okay, And.

1457
01:29:09.960 --> 01:29:15.079
<v Speaker 39>Does that argument work? Like even I guess even asking

1458
01:29:15.119 --> 01:29:18.920
<v Speaker 39>about the existence of God presupposes that God exists.

1459
01:29:20.479 --> 01:29:22.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I would. I would argue that it would lead

1460
01:29:22.640 --> 01:29:24.359
<v Speaker 1>to yeah, that's all I have.

1461
01:29:24.479 --> 01:29:24.800
<v Speaker 39>Thank you.

1462
01:29:26.680 --> 01:29:30.479
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, No, those are good questions. I appreciate your civil attitude.

1463
01:29:30.479 --> 01:29:32.800
<v Speaker 1>We've not had a lot of civil people tonight.

1464
01:29:32.960 --> 01:29:44.159
<v Speaker 3>Justinian, Hey, orthodox Christian.

1465
01:29:44.159 --> 01:29:48.319
<v Speaker 40>I actually became an Orthodox Christian because largely in part

1466
01:29:48.359 --> 01:29:50.880
<v Speaker 40>of your content. But I actually have a friend who

1467
01:29:50.960 --> 01:29:54.560
<v Speaker 40>is conquiring into Orthodox Christianity, and he had an interesting

1468
01:29:54.640 --> 01:29:58.319
<v Speaker 40>question then I actually I couldn't immediately answer in the moment.

1469
01:29:59.359 --> 01:30:02.439
<v Speaker 40>I wanted to maybe shoot it at you get your

1470
01:30:02.439 --> 01:30:07.960
<v Speaker 40>thoughts on it. So essentially his his question is like,

1471
01:30:08.479 --> 01:30:14.199
<v Speaker 40>assuming there was another church council that happened. I know

1472
01:30:14.239 --> 01:30:17.279
<v Speaker 40>that the typical method is obviously through the emperors, and

1473
01:30:17.319 --> 01:30:19.920
<v Speaker 40>that there is no emperor, but just assuming for the

1474
01:30:19.920 --> 01:30:23.439
<v Speaker 40>case that one happened, and it declared something that is

1475
01:30:23.479 --> 01:30:28.800
<v Speaker 40>obviously heretical true like homosexuality or I don't know, something

1476
01:30:28.840 --> 01:30:32.199
<v Speaker 40>along those lines, And obviously there would be like a

1477
01:30:32.239 --> 01:30:36.840
<v Speaker 40>split of sorts. How would someone who is like an

1478
01:30:36.880 --> 01:30:43.800
<v Speaker 40>observer of that determine with one hundred percent accuracy that

1479
01:30:45.000 --> 01:30:48.279
<v Speaker 40>essentially that the people who are splitting off who one

1480
01:30:48.319 --> 01:30:50.720
<v Speaker 40>side is calling schismatic? How how would they determine that

1481
01:30:50.720 --> 01:30:52.600
<v Speaker 40>that's the correct side?

1482
01:30:53.399 --> 01:30:55.880
<v Speaker 1>Well, it would be obvious that one of the parties

1483
01:30:56.000 --> 01:30:58.680
<v Speaker 1>is consistent with all the prior teaching and councils and

1484
01:30:58.720 --> 01:31:00.159
<v Speaker 1>one of the parties is not nice.

1485
01:31:00.199 --> 01:31:05.319
<v Speaker 40>I see, yeah, because I essentially because the issue here

1486
01:31:05.560 --> 01:31:10.079
<v Speaker 40>would be a matter of like if the councils are

1487
01:31:10.119 --> 01:31:11.119
<v Speaker 40>truly infallible?

1488
01:31:11.319 --> 01:31:13.359
<v Speaker 3>Is essentially this is this is what he's bring up.

1489
01:31:13.359 --> 01:31:16.159
<v Speaker 40>If the councils truly are infallible, Like, how do you

1490
01:31:16.199 --> 01:31:17.439
<v Speaker 40>determine their infallibility?

1491
01:31:17.479 --> 01:31:19.079
<v Speaker 3>How does how does an outsider? Essentially?

1492
01:31:19.399 --> 01:31:21.800
<v Speaker 40>But because before I was kind of questioning, is it

1493
01:31:21.800 --> 01:31:25.479
<v Speaker 40>like a numbers game? Well you know actually that no.

1494
01:31:25.640 --> 01:31:28.119
<v Speaker 1>So so we would disagree with the Roman Catholic type

1495
01:31:28.119 --> 01:31:32.520
<v Speaker 1>of position that there's any kind of uh necessary, clear,

1496
01:31:33.039 --> 01:31:38.560
<v Speaker 1>absolute juridical proof of what makes it quote infallible because

1497
01:31:38.600 --> 01:31:42.199
<v Speaker 1>you could conceivably have many bishops at large councils that

1498
01:31:42.239 --> 01:31:45.000
<v Speaker 1>are false councils. And we've actually seen, you know, there's

1499
01:31:45.039 --> 01:31:48.960
<v Speaker 1>the Robber centered to Ephesus, there's the Iconic Class, the

1500
01:31:49.000 --> 01:31:51.159
<v Speaker 1>Council of her Era. I mean, so there's plenty of

1501
01:31:51.640 --> 01:31:56.199
<v Speaker 1>false councils, and really there's no there's no silver bullet

1502
01:31:56.279 --> 01:31:59.239
<v Speaker 1>like Roman Catholics offer with the papacy, because the papacy

1503
01:31:59.239 --> 01:32:02.279
<v Speaker 1>doesn't even give you that. So literally, it just has

1504
01:32:02.359 --> 01:32:06.119
<v Speaker 1>to be what's kind of consistent with the prior Orthodox

1505
01:32:06.960 --> 01:32:09.760
<v Speaker 1>tradition that's been handed down. And I think, as you

1506
01:32:10.720 --> 01:32:13.560
<v Speaker 1>gave in your example, like if some council said we

1507
01:32:13.640 --> 01:32:16.439
<v Speaker 1>are pro schedules now, I mean it would that would

1508
01:32:16.439 --> 01:32:25.199
<v Speaker 1>be really obvious. Jeff, what's up? Hey, Jay?

1509
01:32:25.239 --> 01:32:25.760
<v Speaker 34>How's it going.

1510
01:32:28.960 --> 01:32:30.520
<v Speaker 30>So I want to say, first of all, thank you

1511
01:32:31.039 --> 01:32:32.319
<v Speaker 30>listening to your content a while ago.

1512
01:32:32.760 --> 01:32:34.720
<v Speaker 34>I've been going to an Orthodox.

1513
01:32:34.319 --> 01:32:39.000
<v Speaker 30>Church for a couple of months now, but I was

1514
01:32:40.279 --> 01:32:43.760
<v Speaker 30>I was really curious on your perspective of if I,

1515
01:32:43.800 --> 01:32:45.960
<v Speaker 30>you know, talk to people about the tag debate, and

1516
01:32:46.039 --> 01:32:49.399
<v Speaker 30>I feel like a lot of men, whether they're atheists

1517
01:32:49.520 --> 01:32:52.479
<v Speaker 30>or they do believe, they're very interested in it, and

1518
01:32:52.520 --> 01:32:55.720
<v Speaker 30>it looks very logical and like they want to engage

1519
01:32:55.720 --> 01:32:58.479
<v Speaker 30>with it. But I've noticed even your audience, a lot

1520
01:32:58.560 --> 01:33:02.199
<v Speaker 30>of the orthosphere, it's very men.

1521
01:33:07.720 --> 01:33:12.520
<v Speaker 1>Well yeah, I think men gravitate towards analytical rational you know,

1522
01:33:12.680 --> 01:33:22.119
<v Speaker 1>left brain thinking, are you there? What about it? If

1523
01:33:22.159 --> 01:33:26.159
<v Speaker 1>you're there, you've dropped out. We can't hear you. Maybe

1524
01:33:26.239 --> 01:33:43.159
<v Speaker 1>come out, come back. Make lying wrong, I mean, make

1525
01:33:43.239 --> 01:33:44.359
<v Speaker 1>lying wrong. You want to know?

1526
01:33:44.600 --> 01:33:44.800
<v Speaker 41>Hi?

1527
01:33:46.119 --> 01:33:49.600
<v Speaker 42>Hey, hey, thanks you can you hear me? Okay, okay,

1528
01:33:49.720 --> 01:33:53.520
<v Speaker 42>thank you. I'm not well trained in philosophy, so please

1529
01:33:53.520 --> 01:33:57.039
<v Speaker 42>go easy on me. But I my question was, all right,

1530
01:33:57.079 --> 01:34:01.439
<v Speaker 42>from your perspective, is really religion or Christianity or whatever

1531
01:34:01.479 --> 01:34:04.359
<v Speaker 42>your faith is. Is it something that can be purely

1532
01:34:05.079 --> 01:34:08.640
<v Speaker 42>arrived ad based on evidence and reason, or do you

1533
01:34:08.680 --> 01:34:10.840
<v Speaker 42>think that it requires an act of faith?

1534
01:34:13.720 --> 01:34:16.319
<v Speaker 1>I would say that we're not feediists. So what you're

1535
01:34:16.359 --> 01:34:19.960
<v Speaker 1>describing is called fideism, the idea that you just sort

1536
01:34:19.960 --> 01:34:22.279
<v Speaker 1>of make this leap and maybe there's some things that

1537
01:34:22.359 --> 01:34:25.960
<v Speaker 1>suggests that God's existence or maybe the Bible might be inspired,

1538
01:34:26.079 --> 01:34:29.439
<v Speaker 1>but you just got to make that leap. That's typically

1539
01:34:29.479 --> 01:34:34.479
<v Speaker 1>a post Protestant, post Enlightenment idea. Again, it'st called fedism,

1540
01:34:34.960 --> 01:34:37.279
<v Speaker 1>and neither the Roman Catholic Church nor the history of

1541
01:34:37.279 --> 01:34:40.840
<v Speaker 1>the Orthodox Church supports fideism. It's more so something that

1542
01:34:40.880 --> 01:34:44.640
<v Speaker 1>you see in Protestant evangelical circles. So we believe that

1543
01:34:44.760 --> 01:34:48.800
<v Speaker 1>reasoning is a faculty that does point towards the existence

1544
01:34:48.800 --> 01:34:53.479
<v Speaker 1>of God. Evidential arguments definitely point towards the existence of God.

1545
01:34:54.039 --> 01:35:00.239
<v Speaker 1>But I don't set a divide between reasoning and faith.

1546
01:35:00.920 --> 01:35:04.560
<v Speaker 1>The transcendental argument actually argues that you could not even

1547
01:35:04.680 --> 01:35:08.239
<v Speaker 1>have the possibility of reason or reasoning if God didn't exist.

1548
01:35:08.319 --> 01:35:09.560
<v Speaker 1>So it's a much stronger claim.

1549
01:35:09.840 --> 01:35:13.439
<v Speaker 42>And do you think that other people who use faith

1550
01:35:13.880 --> 01:35:16.640
<v Speaker 42>properly always get the right answer or is it possible

1551
01:35:16.720 --> 01:35:20.520
<v Speaker 42>for lots of different religions and sex or religion to

1552
01:35:20.560 --> 01:35:24.000
<v Speaker 42>be attempting to use faith and to arrive at different conclusions.

1553
01:35:27.600 --> 01:35:29.000
<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm not sure what you mean when you say

1554
01:35:29.199 --> 01:35:32.840
<v Speaker 1>using faiths or Arabic conclusions. I mean, like, for example,

1555
01:35:32.840 --> 01:35:35.920
<v Speaker 1>for us, sometimes the word faith refers to an act

1556
01:35:36.000 --> 01:35:39.079
<v Speaker 1>that an individual does. In terms of like what we're saying.

1557
01:35:39.159 --> 01:35:42.560
<v Speaker 1>The Greek word is piecedus, that is, to believe and

1558
01:35:42.600 --> 01:35:46.000
<v Speaker 1>to have sort of certitude about a position. Sometimes quote,

1559
01:35:46.079 --> 01:35:50.159
<v Speaker 1>faith refers to the entire body of beliefs of a religion,

1560
01:35:50.239 --> 01:35:53.199
<v Speaker 1>such as divine revelation or the Nicene creed or something

1561
01:35:53.279 --> 01:35:56.079
<v Speaker 1>like that. So kind of really just depends on what

1562
01:35:56.119 --> 01:35:58.000
<v Speaker 1>you mean by the word faith there. But I think

1563
01:35:58.079 --> 01:36:02.840
<v Speaker 1>we would say that we determine knowledge on in different

1564
01:36:02.880 --> 01:36:06.560
<v Speaker 1>ways because different things are known in different ways. And

1565
01:36:07.760 --> 01:36:10.840
<v Speaker 1>you know, for example, God is known not just through reason,

1566
01:36:10.960 --> 01:36:13.840
<v Speaker 1>but through his own self disclosure or what we call

1567
01:36:13.880 --> 01:36:17.359
<v Speaker 1>divine revelation. So scripture and the tradition of the church

1568
01:36:17.479 --> 01:36:20.760
<v Speaker 1>are quote the vine revelation that for us is the faith.

1569
01:36:21.239 --> 01:36:24.199
<v Speaker 1>And then when a person believes that they're exercising their faith,

1570
01:36:24.239 --> 01:36:27.399
<v Speaker 1>But I conceive of it more in a philosophical sense

1571
01:36:27.920 --> 01:36:30.239
<v Speaker 1>as a paradigm, and I think that's what you're asking.

1572
01:36:30.319 --> 01:36:32.840
<v Speaker 42>Yeah, I guess I'm trying to understand. Like in a

1573
01:36:32.880 --> 01:36:37.039
<v Speaker 42>scientific disagreement, you can oftentimes pinpoint the source of the

1574
01:36:37.039 --> 01:36:40.720
<v Speaker 42>disagreement and what will be required to persuade the other person.

1575
01:36:40.840 --> 01:36:44.319
<v Speaker 42>Like if an ancient person believe that, you know, a

1576
01:36:44.359 --> 01:36:48.279
<v Speaker 42>fertilized human was like a tiny human and then grew up,

1577
01:36:48.319 --> 01:36:50.479
<v Speaker 42>we can say, ah, well, they didn't have microscopes, they

1578
01:36:50.479 --> 01:36:52.479
<v Speaker 42>didn't have moder embryology, and you could show them an

1579
01:36:52.520 --> 01:36:54.359
<v Speaker 42>ultrasound and so on and say, see it's not a

1580
01:36:54.399 --> 01:36:58.119
<v Speaker 42>tiny human, it's actually a fetus, and so on. With religion,

1581
01:36:58.159 --> 01:37:01.000
<v Speaker 42>my question is how do you pinpoint the difference, Like,

1582
01:37:01.039 --> 01:37:03.479
<v Speaker 42>if someone has a revelation from God and they believe

1583
01:37:03.479 --> 01:37:06.880
<v Speaker 42>in something based on faith, may be supported by reason

1584
01:37:06.880 --> 01:37:10.000
<v Speaker 42>and evidence, but you know, certainly driven by faith.

1585
01:37:10.119 --> 01:37:12.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but again what you're calling phase there is something

1586
01:37:12.720 --> 01:37:17.560
<v Speaker 1>that is assuming the dichotomy that I was talking about earlier,

1587
01:37:18.119 --> 01:37:22.039
<v Speaker 1>where I don't actually believe that there's a dichotomy between quote,

1588
01:37:22.079 --> 01:37:25.720
<v Speaker 1>believing something on faith versus believing something on the basis

1589
01:37:25.800 --> 01:37:29.920
<v Speaker 1>of evidence and reason, because I believe that evidence and

1590
01:37:30.000 --> 01:37:35.520
<v Speaker 1>reasoning are themselves things that presuppose God's existence. So I

1591
01:37:35.560 --> 01:37:38.079
<v Speaker 1>have it the other way around. I believe that everybody

1592
01:37:38.119 --> 01:37:41.840
<v Speaker 1>has faith commitments, including atheists and scientists. They just don't

1593
01:37:41.880 --> 01:37:44.680
<v Speaker 1>admit that. And when you really drill into it, when

1594
01:37:44.720 --> 01:37:49.319
<v Speaker 1>you talk about belief in the scientific method, the rationality, logicality,

1595
01:37:49.359 --> 01:37:52.520
<v Speaker 1>and meaning behind the scientific method, none of those things

1596
01:37:52.560 --> 01:37:54.720
<v Speaker 1>are proven or known by the scientific method. They're actually

1597
01:37:54.760 --> 01:37:57.840
<v Speaker 1>just assumed. And then I can further flesh that out

1598
01:37:57.840 --> 01:38:00.600
<v Speaker 1>by getting into things like the categories of knowledge or

1599
01:38:00.600 --> 01:38:03.479
<v Speaker 1>the preconditions of knowledge. None of those things are known,

1600
01:38:03.520 --> 01:38:06.239
<v Speaker 1>are proven by the scientific method or empirical sense data.

1601
01:38:06.359 --> 01:38:09.800
<v Speaker 1>So thus those would all be quote faith or faith

1602
01:38:09.880 --> 01:38:12.760
<v Speaker 1>beliefs or faith propositions according to the way that you're

1603
01:38:13.000 --> 01:38:15.279
<v Speaker 1>flushing it out. So I don't actually see that big

1604
01:38:15.279 --> 01:38:19.359
<v Speaker 1>of a difference between a skeptical atheist and a Christian believer.

1605
01:38:19.840 --> 01:38:22.479
<v Speaker 42>So do you think that there's not a distinction between

1606
01:38:23.479 --> 01:38:27.079
<v Speaker 42>like a scientific evidence based approach to understanding a problem

1607
01:38:27.159 --> 01:38:31.079
<v Speaker 42>versus prayer, revelation or looking at a holy scripture. It's

1608
01:38:31.119 --> 01:38:32.199
<v Speaker 42>all a form of reason.

1609
01:38:35.079 --> 01:38:37.439
<v Speaker 1>I just think it's more nuanced than that that the

1610
01:38:37.479 --> 01:38:42.880
<v Speaker 1>faculty of reasoning is used in both revelation. Divine revelation

1611
01:38:43.000 --> 01:38:45.600
<v Speaker 1>is a different type of thing than the type of

1612
01:38:45.640 --> 01:38:48.159
<v Speaker 1>knowledge or the information that you gain from sense data.

1613
01:38:48.560 --> 01:38:51.359
<v Speaker 1>I definitely believe that people use the scientific method to

1614
01:38:51.640 --> 01:38:54.640
<v Speaker 1>study and master the natural world. You couldn't have engineering

1615
01:38:54.720 --> 01:38:57.560
<v Speaker 1>or science without it. But I don't think that it's

1616
01:38:57.640 --> 01:39:00.359
<v Speaker 1>equated to divine revelation. But I think that the two

1617
01:39:00.439 --> 01:39:05.640
<v Speaker 1>categories necessitate and interrelate with one another. Because we're bodily beings,

1618
01:39:06.039 --> 01:39:10.640
<v Speaker 1>we have since five senses we have, you know, spatial

1619
01:39:10.760 --> 01:39:14.199
<v Speaker 1>location that we move around in and God made us

1620
01:39:14.239 --> 01:39:16.560
<v Speaker 1>that way, but he also made us to not just

1621
01:39:16.680 --> 01:39:20.359
<v Speaker 1>be beings that operate on since data, but also on

1622
01:39:20.439 --> 01:39:21.199
<v Speaker 1>higher faculties.

1623
01:39:21.359 --> 01:39:23.039
<v Speaker 42>I guess what I'm trying to understand is and sorry,

1624
01:39:23.079 --> 01:39:24.560
<v Speaker 42>you can move on to that speaker if I'm if

1625
01:39:24.560 --> 01:39:29.800
<v Speaker 42>I'm trespassing on now as from from my perspective, and

1626
01:39:29.800 --> 01:39:31.880
<v Speaker 42>you can maybe you disagree with this. There is a

1627
01:39:31.920 --> 01:39:35.239
<v Speaker 42>critical difference between someone who's using the scientific method to

1628
01:39:35.319 --> 01:39:38.439
<v Speaker 42>arrive at conclusions, Like if we do a controlled study

1629
01:39:38.960 --> 01:39:42.039
<v Speaker 42>about whether or not palm reading works, that's different from

1630
01:39:42.039 --> 01:39:45.319
<v Speaker 42>someone who says I just anecdotally see that it works

1631
01:39:45.359 --> 01:39:47.560
<v Speaker 42>and I'm convinced, right. Those are two different things. Or

1632
01:39:47.600 --> 01:39:50.000
<v Speaker 42>if someone says I'm going to look at drug trials

1633
01:39:50.000 --> 01:39:52.560
<v Speaker 42>and see if this one cures cancer or not, another

1634
01:39:52.600 --> 01:39:55.359
<v Speaker 42>person says I'm just going to pray. Those are definitely

1635
01:39:55.399 --> 01:39:58.119
<v Speaker 42>two different ways of coming to conclusions. And I feel

1636
01:39:58.159 --> 01:40:01.319
<v Speaker 42>like what I'm asking is, if you use the non

1637
01:40:01.359 --> 01:40:04.560
<v Speaker 42>scientific way, why do they delete a different conclusions.

1638
01:40:06.079 --> 01:40:08.520
<v Speaker 1>I understand what you're saying, but you're missing the point

1639
01:40:08.520 --> 01:40:11.359
<v Speaker 1>that I'm making about what I mean when I say

1640
01:40:11.439 --> 01:40:16.560
<v Speaker 1>divine revelation or faith. For example, when I talked about

1641
01:40:16.880 --> 01:40:21.039
<v Speaker 1>the scientific method itself, I'm saying on a higher level

1642
01:40:21.319 --> 01:40:25.640
<v Speaker 1>that it's a raising the bar, so to speak. Or

1643
01:40:25.640 --> 01:40:28.039
<v Speaker 1>I'm asking a more fundamental question that for you to

1644
01:40:28.399 --> 01:40:33.039
<v Speaker 1>do science presupposed as things that are not under the

1645
01:40:33.079 --> 01:40:37.560
<v Speaker 1>purview of science, like logic, for example, And science doesn't

1646
01:40:37.600 --> 01:40:42.640
<v Speaker 1>and can't prove logic empirically. So science is a faith

1647
01:40:42.800 --> 01:40:46.119
<v Speaker 1>based enterprise. The only difference is that you have a

1648
01:40:46.159 --> 01:40:51.760
<v Speaker 1>faith in a finite temporal enterprise, and my faith is

1649
01:40:51.760 --> 01:40:54.720
<v Speaker 1>actually something that would ground the very possibility of you

1650
01:40:54.800 --> 01:40:57.319
<v Speaker 1>doing science. Do you see the difference in those claims.

1651
01:40:57.359 --> 01:40:58.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm making a paradigm level claim.

1652
01:40:59.159 --> 01:41:00.079
<v Speaker 11>I think so.

1653
01:41:00.479 --> 01:41:03.239
<v Speaker 42>I'm going back to the comment you made earlier about

1654
01:41:03.239 --> 01:41:07.119
<v Speaker 42>the Mormon who you said you could pinpoint where Joseph Smith,

1655
01:41:07.159 --> 01:41:09.680
<v Speaker 42>you know, inserted some text, and I feel like in

1656
01:41:09.720 --> 01:41:14.199
<v Speaker 42>that case you can pinpoint the the the error in

1657
01:41:14.239 --> 01:41:18.079
<v Speaker 42>his or her reasoning or awareness of the facts right,

1658
01:41:18.560 --> 01:41:21.000
<v Speaker 42>and you can you could potentially persuade them that they're

1659
01:41:21.039 --> 01:41:24.000
<v Speaker 42>wrong if they really properly understood the facts and use reason.

1660
01:41:24.279 --> 01:41:27.159
<v Speaker 1>And I think I think argument, which is what I'm proposing,

1661
01:41:27.359 --> 01:41:29.279
<v Speaker 1>has the ability to do that with an atheist I

1662
01:41:29.520 --> 01:41:30.840
<v Speaker 1>or a materialist.

1663
01:41:30.359 --> 01:41:33.199
<v Speaker 42>Or or a position or a Wiccan or a druid

1664
01:41:33.319 --> 01:41:36.159
<v Speaker 42>or anyone like. Your view is that whatever people believe

1665
01:41:36.159 --> 01:41:39.840
<v Speaker 42>about the supernatural, that the same method would work if

1666
01:41:39.840 --> 01:41:42.000
<v Speaker 42>they only knew the facts and used reason, they would

1667
01:41:42.000 --> 01:41:48.920
<v Speaker 42>come to your conclusions. Yes, ultimately, okay, got it, thank you.

1668
01:41:48.960 --> 01:41:51.000
<v Speaker 1>Now it might take some leg work and it might

1669
01:41:51.039 --> 01:41:55.199
<v Speaker 1>be a little round about because there's what I'm getting

1670
01:41:55.239 --> 01:41:57.680
<v Speaker 1>at is that there's a difference between kind of arguing

1671
01:41:57.760 --> 01:42:02.439
<v Speaker 1>about mundane empirical things, which is what the domain of

1672
01:42:02.479 --> 01:42:07.479
<v Speaker 1>science is, versus how you go about arguing for preconditions

1673
01:42:07.479 --> 01:42:11.079
<v Speaker 1>of knowledge or world viewser paradigms as a whole. So

1674
01:42:11.079 --> 01:42:13.600
<v Speaker 1>it's a different type of argument, and different types of

1675
01:42:13.600 --> 01:42:16.720
<v Speaker 1>things are proven in different ways. So, for example, how

1676
01:42:16.720 --> 01:42:20.399
<v Speaker 1>do I know that logic works? Well, that's a metalogical question.

1677
01:42:20.840 --> 01:42:23.880
<v Speaker 1>It goes outside of the balance of the normal questions

1678
01:42:23.920 --> 01:42:29.439
<v Speaker 1>of you know, regular logical questions. How do I know

1679
01:42:29.479 --> 01:42:32.680
<v Speaker 1>that we have knowledge? Right, that's a pistemological question, but

1680
01:42:32.760 --> 01:42:36.439
<v Speaker 1>it's a pistological question that raises the bar one level.

1681
01:42:36.520 --> 01:42:40.520
<v Speaker 1>So it's a meta epistemological question. Right, what is knowledge?

1682
01:42:40.560 --> 01:42:42.760
<v Speaker 1>How do we know that we have knowledge? Can we

1683
01:42:42.840 --> 01:42:45.439
<v Speaker 1>have knowledge? Right? So when you start to ask those

1684
01:42:45.439 --> 01:42:48.720
<v Speaker 1>types of questions, it raises the bar and it takes

1685
01:42:48.800 --> 01:42:52.079
<v Speaker 1>the type of proof out of the domain of the

1686
01:42:52.119 --> 01:42:55.880
<v Speaker 1>empirical sense data. So we're actually now arguing about a

1687
01:42:55.960 --> 01:43:00.720
<v Speaker 1>higher level of abstraction than does water boil it hundred degrees?

1688
01:43:01.039 --> 01:43:03.960
<v Speaker 1>Can I study, you know, flies in the congo, et cetera.

1689
01:43:04.119 --> 01:43:07.399
<v Speaker 42>Yeah, I think that, And again, just interrupt me or

1690
01:43:07.399 --> 01:43:08.479
<v Speaker 42>throw me away with if you want to get to

1691
01:43:08.479 --> 01:43:10.399
<v Speaker 42>anic speaker. I don't want to hug the mic. But

1692
01:43:11.159 --> 01:43:13.600
<v Speaker 42>the difference, it seems to me is, or I may

1693
01:43:13.600 --> 01:43:16.520
<v Speaker 42>be struggle to understand your point, is that in science

1694
01:43:16.800 --> 01:43:18.760
<v Speaker 42>when you use that method or what I consider be

1695
01:43:18.800 --> 01:43:20.720
<v Speaker 42>that method, although you would say it's the same as faith,

1696
01:43:21.319 --> 01:43:25.199
<v Speaker 42>but what I think of as science causes convergence, you know,

1697
01:43:25.319 --> 01:43:27.680
<v Speaker 42>like like Galilean relative.

1698
01:43:27.720 --> 01:43:29.479
<v Speaker 1>Now, I think, but you're missing the point about what

1699
01:43:29.520 --> 01:43:33.079
<v Speaker 1>I'm talking about by raising the bar or asking more

1700
01:43:33.119 --> 01:43:36.920
<v Speaker 1>fundamental questions about science itself. So what I'm arguing is

1701
01:43:36.960 --> 01:43:41.000
<v Speaker 1>not whether your conclusions within the earthworm studies are tru

1702
01:43:41.039 --> 01:43:43.640
<v Speaker 1>or false. I don't doubt that you can come to

1703
01:43:43.840 --> 01:43:48.119
<v Speaker 1>various consensuses and dispute with the other colleagues in the

1704
01:43:48.199 --> 01:43:51.039
<v Speaker 1>lab about the earthworm. What I'm saying is that science

1705
01:43:51.159 --> 01:43:56.279
<v Speaker 1>itself presupposes things that science can't prove, and that means

1706
01:43:56.279 --> 01:43:59.720
<v Speaker 1>that you're resting on things that you haven't thought about

1707
01:43:59.920 --> 01:44:02.359
<v Speaker 1>or don't And I'm not saying you personally, but I'm

1708
01:44:02.359 --> 01:44:04.760
<v Speaker 1>saying that the people who do science, typically, for example,

1709
01:44:04.840 --> 01:44:07.680
<v Speaker 1>have not studied philosophy of science. So what I'm talking

1710
01:44:07.720 --> 01:44:09.399
<v Speaker 1>about is what you'll if you take a philosophy of

1711
01:44:09.399 --> 01:44:12.000
<v Speaker 1>science class, they'll start you'll start asking all these kinds

1712
01:44:12.039 --> 01:44:13.960
<v Speaker 1>of questions, and you'll read a bunch of essays by

1713
01:44:14.039 --> 01:44:16.880
<v Speaker 1>people who've asked, what is science, how do we do science?

1714
01:44:16.960 --> 01:44:20.560
<v Speaker 1>What does science presupposed? How is the method of science reliable?

1715
01:44:20.560 --> 01:44:22.640
<v Speaker 1>How do we know it's reliable? These are all philosophy

1716
01:44:22.640 --> 01:44:24.720
<v Speaker 1>of science. Cyah, But those are very important.

1717
01:44:24.760 --> 01:44:26.800
<v Speaker 42>But the proof is in the pudding, right like those

1718
01:44:26.800 --> 01:44:28.079
<v Speaker 42>presuppositions must.

1719
01:44:27.960 --> 01:44:31.279
<v Speaker 1>Know this is why that doesn't work. That's that's a

1720
01:44:31.399 --> 01:44:35.600
<v Speaker 1>false argument for justification. So to argue that because something

1721
01:44:35.680 --> 01:44:40.039
<v Speaker 1>works doesn't tell me that it's justified in doing it,

1722
01:44:40.199 --> 01:44:43.960
<v Speaker 1>or that that that doesn't count as episodic justification because

1723
01:44:44.000 --> 01:44:48.279
<v Speaker 1>I can conceivably make anything quote work depending upon what

1724
01:44:48.319 --> 01:44:51.239
<v Speaker 1>I'm getting trying to get it to do. Right, So

1725
01:44:51.600 --> 01:44:55.640
<v Speaker 1>just because something quote works is missing the point about well,

1726
01:44:55.640 --> 01:44:57.880
<v Speaker 1>how do you know that the science itself is true

1727
01:44:57.960 --> 01:45:00.920
<v Speaker 1>or that scientific the specific method it is true because

1728
01:45:00.920 --> 01:45:06.319
<v Speaker 1>the method is never under the purview of the microscope

1729
01:45:06.399 --> 01:45:07.239
<v Speaker 1>or science itself.

1730
01:45:07.600 --> 01:45:11.600
<v Speaker 42>Yeah, but like nuclear reactors will always work even if

1731
01:45:11.600 --> 01:45:12.359
<v Speaker 42>they're based off.

1732
01:45:12.800 --> 01:45:16.680
<v Speaker 1>You're missing the point. You can't make that claim logically.

1733
01:45:16.880 --> 01:45:18.680
<v Speaker 42>I can't claim that nuclear reactors work.

1734
01:45:20.520 --> 01:45:23.520
<v Speaker 1>You said always, which is a universal claim. So in

1735
01:45:23.600 --> 01:45:27.399
<v Speaker 1>logic that's called universal quantifier. Anytime you say that, if

1736
01:45:27.439 --> 01:45:30.800
<v Speaker 1>you're an empirical science based person, you've shot yourself in

1737
01:45:30.840 --> 01:45:34.880
<v Speaker 1>the foot because it's an unjustified claim. You can't demonstrate

1738
01:45:34.920 --> 01:45:39.720
<v Speaker 1>empirically that this event will always in the future operate

1739
01:45:39.760 --> 01:45:42.079
<v Speaker 1>that way. It's an assumption, and I think it's a

1740
01:45:42.079 --> 01:45:45.399
<v Speaker 1>good assumption, but it cannot logically be demonstrated. So you

1741
01:45:45.439 --> 01:45:49.600
<v Speaker 1>see right there, science is resting on logical assumptions that

1742
01:45:49.640 --> 01:45:50.399
<v Speaker 1>it can't justify.

1743
01:45:50.560 --> 01:45:54.880
<v Speaker 42>Yeah, but if you abandon logical assumptions, you end up

1744
01:45:54.880 --> 01:45:57.479
<v Speaker 42>with religion, right, your proliferation of different beliefs that not

1745
01:45:57.760 --> 01:45:58.880
<v Speaker 42>reconized you're missing.

1746
01:45:58.960 --> 01:46:02.439
<v Speaker 1>That's so I say. My argument is that it's not

1747
01:46:02.520 --> 01:46:08.399
<v Speaker 1>abandoning logic for religion. Revelation is the foundation for logic.

1748
01:46:08.520 --> 01:46:10.439
<v Speaker 42>But why does it lead to log Why does revelation

1749
01:46:10.560 --> 01:46:13.159
<v Speaker 42>lead to different outcomes for different people in different countries

1750
01:46:13.159 --> 01:46:15.079
<v Speaker 42>and different historical periods, is what I'm asking.

1751
01:46:15.079 --> 01:46:16.720
<v Speaker 1>Well, that would just be a fallacy. The fact that

1752
01:46:16.760 --> 01:46:20.279
<v Speaker 1>people have varying religious beliefs doesn't mean that the religion is.

1753
01:46:20.880 --> 01:46:22.399
<v Speaker 42>That has nothing to do with whether religon you're saying

1754
01:46:22.399 --> 01:46:24.560
<v Speaker 42>they're doing it.

1755
01:46:25.439 --> 01:46:27.279
<v Speaker 1>Well, when you say the same thing about a person

1756
01:46:27.319 --> 01:46:28.359
<v Speaker 1>in science it came to.

1757
01:46:28.319 --> 01:46:32.039
<v Speaker 42>False conclusions, Yeah, I would, so that has.

1758
01:46:31.920 --> 01:46:34.279
<v Speaker 1>Nothing to do with whether their position is true false.

1759
01:46:35.279 --> 01:46:38.560
<v Speaker 42>What I'm saying is why does revelation lead to different conclusions?

1760
01:46:38.560 --> 01:46:40.520
<v Speaker 42>And it's a good faith question, like in terms of

1761
01:46:40.560 --> 01:46:42.680
<v Speaker 42>are you saying that they're doing it the wrong way

1762
01:46:42.960 --> 01:46:44.680
<v Speaker 42>or is it the wrong revelation or do they listen

1763
01:46:44.680 --> 01:46:45.920
<v Speaker 42>to the wrong guy.

1764
01:46:46.399 --> 01:46:48.359
<v Speaker 1>I could ask you the same question as to why

1765
01:46:48.399 --> 01:46:50.359
<v Speaker 1>the scientific method would lead people to.

1766
01:46:50.279 --> 01:46:52.439
<v Speaker 42>Different conclusions because the evidence reason.

1767
01:46:54.439 --> 01:46:58.119
<v Speaker 1>Or people learning wrong they're doing that, there's a lot

1768
01:46:58.439 --> 01:47:02.279
<v Speaker 1>or people are not good scientists, or they don't follow

1769
01:47:02.319 --> 01:47:05.560
<v Speaker 1>the method or they're paid off or they're getting grant money,

1770
01:47:05.560 --> 01:47:07.039
<v Speaker 1>and they just want to fudge the evage.

1771
01:47:07.039 --> 01:47:10.239
<v Speaker 42>You're saying people don't follow the religious or faith slash

1772
01:47:10.279 --> 01:47:11.399
<v Speaker 42>reason method correctly.

1773
01:47:11.640 --> 01:47:13.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm saying that should be obvious to you that because

1774
01:47:13.800 --> 01:47:17.880
<v Speaker 1>there's differentiation in religious claims has nothing to do with

1775
01:47:17.920 --> 01:47:19.720
<v Speaker 1>which position is true or false. It's a foul.

1776
01:47:19.840 --> 01:47:22.359
<v Speaker 42>Do you think a person can have a genuine, sincere

1777
01:47:22.479 --> 01:47:23.880
<v Speaker 42>faith that is incorrect?

1778
01:47:28.279 --> 01:47:30.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, people can sincerely believe wrong things.

1779
01:47:30.600 --> 01:47:32.520
<v Speaker 42>Sure, okay, got it, thank you.

1780
01:47:38.880 --> 01:47:44.479
<v Speaker 1>I thought we could keep going. But whatever, Josh father deacon,

1781
01:47:44.479 --> 01:47:48.359
<v Speaker 1>would you like to comment on that as a person

1782
01:47:48.479 --> 01:48:00.680
<v Speaker 1>from the domain of the philosophy of science? Yeah, dang one,

1783
01:48:02.239 --> 01:48:02.600
<v Speaker 1>it was.

1784
01:48:02.640 --> 01:48:05.439
<v Speaker 43>I cannot happen. I just happened to come across the

1785
01:48:05.600 --> 01:48:09.319
<v Speaker 43>talk and I and the that guy earlier make lying

1786
01:48:09.720 --> 01:48:13.000
<v Speaker 43>wrong again or something like that that guy earlier, but

1787
01:48:13.960 --> 01:48:15.399
<v Speaker 43>I think he kind of missed.

1788
01:48:17.800 --> 01:48:18.439
<v Speaker 37>A few minutes.

1789
01:48:18.439 --> 01:48:21.239
<v Speaker 44>I'm going into play bluegrass.

1790
01:48:21.399 --> 01:48:25.199
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, is it any comments on the philosophy of

1791
01:48:25.199 --> 01:48:27.720
<v Speaker 1>science in regard to what made lying wrong? With saying?

1792
01:48:28.159 --> 01:48:32.239
<v Speaker 44>Well, no, yeah, I shut this guy up for a second. So,

1793
01:48:32.439 --> 01:48:34.479
<v Speaker 44>because I only have a few minutes, forgive me for

1794
01:48:34.520 --> 01:48:40.159
<v Speaker 44>being rude but impatient. But yeah, what I would say

1795
01:48:40.199 --> 01:48:45.840
<v Speaker 44>too is that you got a lot of good points there. Again,

1796
01:48:47.439 --> 01:48:50.640
<v Speaker 44>science isn't a worse shape than that, Like you'd pointed out,

1797
01:48:51.039 --> 01:48:53.199
<v Speaker 44>he was saying, well, this works, and you know this,

1798
01:48:53.600 --> 01:48:56.199
<v Speaker 44>that the proofs in the pudding, and I think you

1799
01:48:56.279 --> 01:49:00.680
<v Speaker 44>alluded to this that. Yeah, but we can have multiple

1800
01:49:00.760 --> 01:49:04.159
<v Speaker 44>theories and multiple conclusions they all work, so they can't

1801
01:49:04.199 --> 01:49:04.920
<v Speaker 44>all be true.

1802
01:49:05.560 --> 01:49:06.520
<v Speaker 14>That's one of the things.

1803
01:49:06.640 --> 01:49:09.680
<v Speaker 44>And then you know, the problem with like the kind

1804
01:49:09.680 --> 01:49:14.399
<v Speaker 44>of assumption that you're that you were addressing and bringing up, is.

1805
01:49:14.199 --> 01:49:16.359
<v Speaker 1>You talk about the underdetermination.

1806
01:49:15.720 --> 01:49:17.479
<v Speaker 44>Of data, understanda of data.

1807
01:49:17.560 --> 01:49:19.199
<v Speaker 14>Yeah, this was brought up.

1808
01:49:19.239 --> 01:49:21.000
<v Speaker 44>A student came to me and was asking me, like,

1809
01:49:21.039 --> 01:49:23.399
<v Speaker 44>why don't you believe what about the fossils? And I'm like,

1810
01:49:23.560 --> 01:49:27.600
<v Speaker 44>I could reinterpret all of that theoretically into a paradigm

1811
01:49:27.840 --> 01:49:32.680
<v Speaker 44>and just redate everything. Like so it's kind of a

1812
01:49:32.680 --> 01:49:35.640
<v Speaker 44>failure to understand exactly these kinds, like you said, these

1813
01:49:36.359 --> 01:49:42.560
<v Speaker 44>philosophical questions about science, the philosophy science, but science itself

1814
01:49:42.720 --> 01:49:47.359
<v Speaker 44>never even gets to knowledge because of those kinds of

1815
01:49:47.399 --> 01:49:50.279
<v Speaker 44>problems and the problem of induction and stuff like that.

1816
01:49:50.279 --> 01:49:59.560
<v Speaker 44>That that's visuously circular. So even to say it will

1817
01:49:59.600 --> 01:50:07.920
<v Speaker 44>work is a fallacy of induction because it assumes that

1818
01:50:08.119 --> 01:50:11.880
<v Speaker 44>the future will be like the past. So the science

1819
01:50:11.880 --> 01:50:15.520
<v Speaker 44>can't even get to that point. Now again, right, I

1820
01:50:15.640 --> 01:50:19.000
<v Speaker 44>like that you pointed out it's reasonable in one sense

1821
01:50:19.000 --> 01:50:24.239
<v Speaker 44>if we qualify what that means, because again, what science

1822
01:50:24.319 --> 01:50:29.600
<v Speaker 44>is doing is something entirely different. But as human pointed out,

1823
01:50:30.239 --> 01:50:34.439
<v Speaker 44>but if we mean by reasonable, logical or epistemic, no,

1824
01:50:34.720 --> 01:50:36.479
<v Speaker 44>like it can't actually get to that.

1825
01:50:38.359 --> 01:50:38.800
<v Speaker 1>Exactly.

1826
01:50:38.880 --> 01:50:39.199
<v Speaker 14>Yeah.

1827
01:50:39.239 --> 01:50:42.600
<v Speaker 44>So anyways, that's all I wanted to add. I'm gonna

1828
01:50:42.600 --> 01:50:44.880
<v Speaker 44>go and play some music. Forgive me for interrupting the

1829
01:50:45.159 --> 01:50:45.960
<v Speaker 44>gentleman there.

1830
01:50:45.760 --> 01:50:46.239
<v Speaker 12>But I have.

1831
01:50:48.079 --> 01:50:51.399
<v Speaker 1>That's all good. Yeah, so make wine. If you wanted

1832
01:50:51.439 --> 01:50:52.680
<v Speaker 1>to respond to that, you can.

1833
01:50:53.079 --> 01:50:53.279
<v Speaker 11>Yeah.

1834
01:50:53.319 --> 01:50:54.960
<v Speaker 42>I left because I didn't want to hog the mic,

1835
01:50:55.359 --> 01:50:59.119
<v Speaker 42>and again you can always mute me. I think from

1836
01:50:59.119 --> 01:51:02.880
<v Speaker 42>a scientific person, afective, I agree with you that you

1837
01:51:02.880 --> 01:51:06.279
<v Speaker 42>you assume that the past is like the future, But

1838
01:51:06.359 --> 01:51:08.760
<v Speaker 42>I think that that's being a little bit like not

1839
01:51:09.039 --> 01:51:12.399
<v Speaker 42>charitable enough just leaving it there, because you don't just assume.

1840
01:51:12.680 --> 01:51:15.479
<v Speaker 42>You you take an educated guess and then you go test.

1841
01:51:15.680 --> 01:51:18.439
<v Speaker 42>So if the future wasn't like the past, your experiment

1842
01:51:18.439 --> 01:51:21.159
<v Speaker 42>wouldn't work. And then if your experiment does work, it's

1843
01:51:21.199 --> 01:51:22.960
<v Speaker 42>evidence that your guess Interrectah.

1844
01:51:27.079 --> 01:51:29.720
<v Speaker 1>We're not calling into question whether the future will be

1845
01:51:29.760 --> 01:51:33.079
<v Speaker 1>like the past. We're pointing out that from an empirical standpoint,

1846
01:51:33.560 --> 01:51:37.760
<v Speaker 1>you can't epistemically or logically justify that the future will

1847
01:51:37.800 --> 01:51:38.479
<v Speaker 1>be like the past.

1848
01:51:38.640 --> 01:51:44.960
<v Speaker 42>That's the point, okay, But but you don't think that

1849
01:51:45.000 --> 01:51:47.039
<v Speaker 42>there's good evidence that the future is like the past.

1850
01:51:47.960 --> 01:51:50.680
<v Speaker 1>It doesn't matter like that because the evidence will still

1851
01:51:50.720 --> 01:51:52.600
<v Speaker 1>be based on empirical sense data.

1852
01:51:52.680 --> 01:51:55.279
<v Speaker 42>And so we'll beg the question, are you suggesting that

1853
01:51:55.319 --> 01:51:57.960
<v Speaker 42>we do something like should you pray about it? Or

1854
01:51:58.000 --> 01:51:59.840
<v Speaker 42>should you like get a revelation?

1855
01:52:00.039 --> 01:52:03.479
<v Speaker 1>I'm suggesting that. I'm suggesting that there have to be

1856
01:52:03.600 --> 01:52:08.000
<v Speaker 1>assumed preconditions or categories for the possibility of knowledge, like

1857
01:52:08.119 --> 01:52:11.960
<v Speaker 1>logic that are not sense data dependent, that are not

1858
01:52:12.079 --> 01:52:15.119
<v Speaker 1>found in sense data, that are not reducible to matter,

1859
01:52:15.600 --> 01:52:20.000
<v Speaker 1>and therefore empiricism and materialism as worldviews are self defeating.

1860
01:52:20.079 --> 01:52:22.399
<v Speaker 1>Let me give you another example to say all knowledge

1861
01:52:22.439 --> 01:52:26.239
<v Speaker 1>comes from sense data, as most modern science y minded

1862
01:52:26.279 --> 01:52:31.319
<v Speaker 1>people say that itself is a self refuting claim because

1863
01:52:31.600 --> 01:52:35.840
<v Speaker 1>you can't show in sense data that that proposition is true.

1864
01:52:35.880 --> 01:52:41.439
<v Speaker 42>It's an assumption, okay, but I don't think you have to.

1865
01:52:41.640 --> 01:52:44.319
<v Speaker 42>I don't think like the worldview that you come to

1866
01:52:44.399 --> 01:52:46.560
<v Speaker 42>through science depends on your assumption. I think it depends

1867
01:52:46.560 --> 01:52:48.359
<v Speaker 42>on the universe we live in, because if you didn't

1868
01:52:48.399 --> 01:52:49.600
<v Speaker 42>live in a universe.

1869
01:52:49.600 --> 01:52:51.920
<v Speaker 1>You're just assuming the thing in question. How do you

1870
01:52:52.039 --> 01:52:55.239
<v Speaker 1>know that? How do you know that empiricism is true?

1871
01:52:55.399 --> 01:52:57.279
<v Speaker 42>Well, in science, I don't think you can know something

1872
01:52:57.319 --> 01:52:59.600
<v Speaker 42>for one hundred percent certainty. But if it wasn't true,

1873
01:52:59.720 --> 01:53:05.119
<v Speaker 42>You're experiments wouldn't work. But you can fail to You

1874
01:53:05.119 --> 01:53:07.119
<v Speaker 42>can test something, it can fail to be falsified, is

1875
01:53:07.119 --> 01:53:07.600
<v Speaker 42>what I'm saying.

1876
01:53:08.359 --> 01:53:10.600
<v Speaker 1>So what you should look into is what it means

1877
01:53:10.640 --> 01:53:14.399
<v Speaker 1>to have epistemic justification because you keep appealing to the

1878
01:53:14.439 --> 01:53:17.439
<v Speaker 1>thing in question. The question that we're raising is prior

1879
01:53:17.479 --> 01:53:20.840
<v Speaker 1>to the doing of science and prior to empirical sense data.

1880
01:53:21.000 --> 01:53:23.800
<v Speaker 1>So every time you appeal to something from sense data,

1881
01:53:23.880 --> 01:53:26.239
<v Speaker 1>like doing more science or just assuming that the world

1882
01:53:26.239 --> 01:53:30.039
<v Speaker 1>works that way, it's begging the question about the philosophical

1883
01:53:30.119 --> 01:53:31.239
<v Speaker 1>question that's being asked.

1884
01:53:31.359 --> 01:53:33.800
<v Speaker 42>So you're saying, before you do science, if you come

1885
01:53:33.800 --> 01:53:35.600
<v Speaker 42>to any conclusions, you're begging the question.

1886
01:53:39.119 --> 01:53:40.359
<v Speaker 11>Again, because I would agree.

1887
01:53:40.199 --> 01:53:40.720
<v Speaker 3>With You're not.

1888
01:53:42.159 --> 01:53:47.000
<v Speaker 1>You're not justifying or giving an account for the things

1889
01:53:47.039 --> 01:53:50.279
<v Speaker 1>that you use to do science which are not found

1890
01:53:50.279 --> 01:53:53.520
<v Speaker 1>in empirical sense data and cannot be justified or found

1891
01:53:53.520 --> 01:53:56.399
<v Speaker 1>in empirical sense data. Let me give you an example again.

1892
01:53:56.880 --> 01:54:00.359
<v Speaker 1>The claim all knowledge comes from sense data is self

1893
01:54:00.439 --> 01:54:03.880
<v Speaker 1>refuting as a claim because number one, it makes a

1894
01:54:04.000 --> 01:54:07.960
<v Speaker 1>universal quantifier claim all knowledge comes from sense data. If

1895
01:54:07.960 --> 01:54:11.119
<v Speaker 1>you're an empiricist, you can't know that because you don't

1896
01:54:11.119 --> 01:54:15.119
<v Speaker 1>have access to all experience. Secondly, the proposition it self

1897
01:54:15.319 --> 01:54:18.319
<v Speaker 1>is self refuting because the truth value of that proposition

1898
01:54:19.119 --> 01:54:22.600
<v Speaker 1>is not found in sense data, so itself does not

1899
01:54:22.720 --> 01:54:26.000
<v Speaker 1>constitute a knowledge proposition, and so it's self refuting. Do

1900
01:54:26.079 --> 01:54:26.520
<v Speaker 1>you understand?

1901
01:54:26.680 --> 01:54:30.479
<v Speaker 42>Yeah, don't. I don't dispute that science can't answer all

1902
01:54:30.520 --> 01:54:33.720
<v Speaker 42>possible philosophical questions to everybody's satisfaction.

1903
01:54:33.840 --> 01:54:38.479
<v Speaker 1>My question is that you're avoiding the challenge that I pose,

1904
01:54:38.680 --> 01:54:43.800
<v Speaker 1>which is that a naive empiricist worldview is itself self refuting.

1905
01:54:43.880 --> 01:54:45.039
<v Speaker 1>Do you understand what I'm saying?

1906
01:54:45.119 --> 01:54:46.319
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I get that.

1907
01:54:46.479 --> 01:54:48.239
<v Speaker 42>The claim is I.

1908
01:54:48.239 --> 01:54:52.399
<v Speaker 1>Understand that, No, it's self refuting. It's not even.

1909
01:54:52.239 --> 01:54:58.079
<v Speaker 42>Circular, said sorry, which claim is self refuting? I'm sorry

1910
01:54:58.199 --> 01:54:58.680
<v Speaker 42>I lost you.

1911
01:54:59.079 --> 01:55:01.760
<v Speaker 1>If you were to say all knowledge comes from sense data,

1912
01:55:02.640 --> 01:55:06.920
<v Speaker 1>that is not a circular argument. That's a contradiction, very different.

1913
01:55:07.000 --> 01:55:10.279
<v Speaker 42>Okay, And you're saying there's another source of data where

1914
01:55:10.319 --> 01:55:11.880
<v Speaker 42>knowledge comes from.

1915
01:55:14.800 --> 01:55:18.239
<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm partly saying that, but I'm giving an example

1916
01:55:18.359 --> 01:55:23.479
<v Speaker 1>of preconditions of knowledge that are not found in sense data.

1917
01:55:24.199 --> 01:55:28.000
<v Speaker 1>And I listed multiple examples of this. The past, the self,

1918
01:55:28.479 --> 01:55:35.680
<v Speaker 1>the mind, logic, universals, time, memory, on and on and on.

1919
01:55:35.920 --> 01:55:38.159
<v Speaker 1>None of those things are found in sense data, but

1920
01:55:38.279 --> 01:55:41.800
<v Speaker 1>they are presupposed in any act of knowledge. An act

1921
01:55:41.800 --> 01:55:46.920
<v Speaker 1>of knowledge presupposes a knower, logic, sense give me sentences,

1922
01:55:47.199 --> 01:55:51.880
<v Speaker 1>the writing, science papers presupposes meaning. None of those things

1923
01:55:51.920 --> 01:55:54.479
<v Speaker 1>can be found in sense data. So those are categories,

1924
01:55:54.760 --> 01:55:59.159
<v Speaker 1>transcendental categories, or something's sometimes called preconditions for the possibility

1925
01:55:59.199 --> 01:56:06.000
<v Speaker 1>of knowledge. Okay, And none of those things are found

1926
01:56:06.000 --> 01:56:08.640
<v Speaker 1>in sense data. And all of those things are assumed

1927
01:56:08.840 --> 01:56:11.840
<v Speaker 1>by any doing of science. That's why it's a trends scendent.

1928
01:56:12.079 --> 01:56:15.479
<v Speaker 42>And if we were if you had a planet with imperfect,

1929
01:56:16.039 --> 01:56:18.600
<v Speaker 42>you know, finite beings, would you expect them to know

1930
01:56:18.720 --> 01:56:24.119
<v Speaker 42>things without any assumptions or presuppositions about anything like is

1931
01:56:24.119 --> 01:56:27.359
<v Speaker 42>that what you would expect if they were just grew

1932
01:56:27.439 --> 01:56:28.520
<v Speaker 42>up in the universe and trying.

1933
01:56:28.319 --> 01:56:31.039
<v Speaker 1>To understand that. It seems like a fallacy of irrelevance.

1934
01:56:31.079 --> 01:56:32.439
<v Speaker 1>I don't understand how that's relevant.

1935
01:56:32.479 --> 01:56:35.880
<v Speaker 42>Why would you? I guess my question is what is

1936
01:56:36.399 --> 01:56:39.119
<v Speaker 42>the better source of data that's not sense data that

1937
01:56:39.159 --> 01:56:41.800
<v Speaker 42>everybody has access to and gets you reliable conclusions.

1938
01:56:42.079 --> 01:56:44.680
<v Speaker 1>You're missing the point. I'm not saying that we don't

1939
01:56:44.760 --> 01:56:47.600
<v Speaker 1>learn things from sense data. I'm saying that sense data

1940
01:56:47.720 --> 01:56:52.239
<v Speaker 1>is a lower form of knowledge that assumes abstract, universal,

1941
01:56:52.560 --> 01:56:57.159
<v Speaker 1>non physical categories that have to be there to have

1942
01:56:57.239 --> 01:57:01.319
<v Speaker 1>knowledge at all. Again, it's a argument from the preconditions

1943
01:57:01.319 --> 01:57:05.319
<v Speaker 1>of knowledge. You cannot point to any molecules that make

1944
01:57:05.439 --> 01:57:10.520
<v Speaker 1>up the preconditions, but to talk at all assumes the preconditions.

1945
01:57:11.560 --> 01:57:14.920
<v Speaker 1>So it's a stronger argument from a logical standpoint.

1946
01:57:16.880 --> 01:57:24.560
<v Speaker 42>Okay, well I'll step aside let others speak. Thank you, sure, Alex.

1947
01:57:39.279 --> 01:57:53.600
<v Speaker 1>I'm you unmute dude. Why are you raising your hands?

1948
01:57:53.760 --> 01:57:55.960
<v Speaker 1>For the life of you cannot understand why people can't

1949
01:57:56.000 --> 01:57:56.560
<v Speaker 1>work this thing.

1950
01:57:57.399 --> 01:58:01.319
<v Speaker 45>When I got invited in, it was behind the live stream,

1951
01:58:01.359 --> 01:58:06.159
<v Speaker 45>so I couldn't hear what you said, yeah, so I

1952
01:58:06.199 --> 01:58:11.039
<v Speaker 45>feel like there's a slight misinterpretation when people make scientific claims,

1953
01:58:12.159 --> 01:58:14.680
<v Speaker 45>when a person says something is scientifically proven to be true,

1954
01:58:15.000 --> 01:58:18.640
<v Speaker 45>because it's framed with the scientific method and science in

1955
01:58:18.680 --> 01:58:24.159
<v Speaker 45>general in that philosophical sense that no matter how true

1956
01:58:24.239 --> 01:58:28.279
<v Speaker 45>somebody says something is scientifically, it's all framed within the

1957
01:58:28.560 --> 01:58:32.039
<v Speaker 45>It could be wrong, whether the certainty levels ninety nine

1958
01:58:32.079 --> 01:58:35.279
<v Speaker 45>point nine whatever percent or whatever, it's never one hundred

1959
01:58:35.279 --> 01:58:39.079
<v Speaker 45>percent because just inherently it has to possibly be wrong,

1960
01:58:39.359 --> 01:58:42.319
<v Speaker 45>so that way it could be also testable. And you know,

1961
01:58:42.800 --> 01:58:45.520
<v Speaker 45>you have two people, let's say they have them Usua.

1962
01:58:45.520 --> 01:58:48.439
<v Speaker 45>They wake up on an island, two separate but identical islands.

1963
01:58:48.840 --> 01:58:53.319
<v Speaker 45>One is very religious minded you the one is more

1964
01:58:53.319 --> 01:58:57.520
<v Speaker 45>scientifically minded. And the person is like, well, they're trying

1965
01:58:57.560 --> 01:58:59.800
<v Speaker 45>to figure out how the world works. And you see

1966
01:58:59.800 --> 01:59:03.640
<v Speaker 45>that they're testing things without even realizing it. You know,

1967
01:59:04.520 --> 01:59:06.840
<v Speaker 45>I think this animal went behind this bush. Oh wait,

1968
01:59:06.880 --> 01:59:08.840
<v Speaker 45>they're not behind that bush. That means I could be wrong.

1969
01:59:08.920 --> 01:59:11.000
<v Speaker 45>That means like maybe I could be wrong about anything.

1970
01:59:11.640 --> 01:59:16.239
<v Speaker 45>And versus the person who goes and says, hey, the

1971
01:59:16.279 --> 01:59:19.039
<v Speaker 45>animal went behind the bush and they're not there anymore,

1972
01:59:19.520 --> 01:59:22.319
<v Speaker 45>and I heard a voice in my head, and therefore

1973
01:59:23.279 --> 01:59:25.880
<v Speaker 45>you know that that might be some other being that

1974
01:59:25.960 --> 01:59:30.960
<v Speaker 45>I can't access other than through my own head may exist,

1975
01:59:31.039 --> 01:59:34.000
<v Speaker 45>and it may have controlled where the animal was. And

1976
01:59:34.199 --> 01:59:36.800
<v Speaker 45>it just seems as though there's more jump to conclusions

1977
01:59:36.800 --> 01:59:40.479
<v Speaker 45>with the religious minded person versus the more tightly knit

1978
01:59:40.840 --> 01:59:44.039
<v Speaker 45>set of assumptions that are based on this more intellectually

1979
01:59:44.079 --> 01:59:47.600
<v Speaker 45>humble I could be wrong at all times because I'm

1980
01:59:47.600 --> 01:59:50.720
<v Speaker 45>always based, I'm always using evidence that could possibly be wrong.

1981
01:59:52.079 --> 01:59:54.399
<v Speaker 1>But what you're saying is missing the point about the

1982
01:59:54.439 --> 01:59:57.439
<v Speaker 1>things that I was orguing for in terms of preconditions

1983
01:59:57.520 --> 02:00:01.079
<v Speaker 1>or transcenital categories. The reason that the reason that those

1984
02:00:01.079 --> 02:00:03.880
<v Speaker 1>things can't be wrong in any sense is because if

1985
02:00:03.920 --> 02:00:09.439
<v Speaker 1>they're wrong, knowledge is impossible, and scientism but just another

1986
02:00:09.479 --> 02:00:12.600
<v Speaker 1>form of knowledge that is based on a jump to

1987
02:00:12.720 --> 02:00:17.039
<v Speaker 1>conclusion because of everything they argued to that guy. What

1988
02:00:17.079 --> 02:00:20.039
<v Speaker 1>I'm arguing is that revelation is the ground for the

1989
02:00:20.119 --> 02:00:23.920
<v Speaker 1>transcendental categories, which are the ground form period.

1990
02:00:23.720 --> 02:00:26.000
<v Speaker 45>Which so it starts from a jumped to conclusion.

1991
02:00:28.199 --> 02:00:30.600
<v Speaker 1>No, it's not a jump. It's arguing that if you

1992
02:00:30.680 --> 02:00:34.800
<v Speaker 1>make a sentence, you're assuming transcenal categories and God is

1993
02:00:34.840 --> 02:00:37.039
<v Speaker 1>the only type of being that could ground transnal category.

1994
02:00:37.039 --> 02:00:38.880
<v Speaker 45>But let's say you hear a voice in your head

1995
02:00:39.399 --> 02:00:42.640
<v Speaker 45>and you believe it's God. There's a jump to conclusion.

1996
02:00:42.920 --> 02:00:46.640
<v Speaker 45>There's other possibilities I'm argue that I'm arguing for.

1997
02:00:47.279 --> 02:00:50.199
<v Speaker 1>I'm not arguing for hearing voicism, arguing for a specific

1998
02:00:50.439 --> 02:00:54.359
<v Speaker 1>historic religion, Orthodox Christianity. And it's the version of theism,

1999
02:00:54.399 --> 02:00:56.840
<v Speaker 1>which is not just one guy hearing a voice. It's

2000
02:00:56.880 --> 02:00:57.560
<v Speaker 1>an entire metal.

2001
02:00:57.720 --> 02:01:00.560
<v Speaker 45>Take any religion, and the entire thing is going to

2002
02:01:00.560 --> 02:01:03.560
<v Speaker 45>be based on. Yeah, sure, maybe historical accounts with whatever

2003
02:01:03.640 --> 02:01:06.600
<v Speaker 45>level of accuracy there is, but in every one of

2004
02:01:06.640 --> 02:01:09.640
<v Speaker 45>those counts, just like in the scientific method, there are

2005
02:01:09.720 --> 02:01:13.960
<v Speaker 45>many other plausible, you know, possibilities, not necessarily within the

2006
02:01:14.000 --> 02:01:19.239
<v Speaker 45>whole framework of that belief system, but just anyone something

2007
02:01:19.319 --> 02:01:21.840
<v Speaker 45>that might have another explanation that we just don't know.

2008
02:01:22.199 --> 02:01:25.199
<v Speaker 1>That's why we're going to philosophy and to the things

2009
02:01:25.239 --> 02:01:28.840
<v Speaker 1>that are preconditions for all knowledge or any possible knowledge.

2010
02:01:28.920 --> 02:01:31.439
<v Speaker 1>That's why we're going to that to exclude what you're

2011
02:01:31.520 --> 02:01:31.960
<v Speaker 1>saying right.

2012
02:01:31.920 --> 02:01:34.239
<v Speaker 45>Here, which is, you know, both people on the island,

2013
02:01:34.239 --> 02:01:37.800
<v Speaker 45>they are starting at the same place, but what do

2014
02:01:37.840 --> 02:01:40.319
<v Speaker 45>they start how what is the base and core of

2015
02:01:40.359 --> 02:01:41.640
<v Speaker 45>how they're framing everything else.

2016
02:01:42.880 --> 02:01:44.279
<v Speaker 1>I don't I'm not trying to be rude. I don't

2017
02:01:44.279 --> 02:01:48.399
<v Speaker 1>think you're understanding. I'm making a specific transcendental argument. The

2018
02:01:48.520 --> 02:01:52.479
<v Speaker 1>argument itself addresses and bypasses the challenge that you're giving

2019
02:01:52.520 --> 02:01:55.119
<v Speaker 1>because it's not understanding what the argument is. The argument

2020
02:01:55.199 --> 02:02:01.600
<v Speaker 1>is prior to empirical sense data claims. So can you

2021
02:02:01.600 --> 02:02:07.560
<v Speaker 1>give me an example, like between you know the two? Right?

2022
02:02:07.640 --> 02:02:12.239
<v Speaker 1>So other categories that are necessary for any possible knowledge

2023
02:02:12.279 --> 02:02:16.079
<v Speaker 1>would again be things like the external world, the self,

2024
02:02:16.359 --> 02:02:21.680
<v Speaker 1>the mind, logic, universals, mathematics, time, et cetera. None of

2025
02:02:21.760 --> 02:02:25.359
<v Speaker 1>those things are in sense data. They're preconditions for the

2026
02:02:25.399 --> 02:02:29.199
<v Speaker 1>possibility of knowledge, and so they're prior to empirical claims.

2027
02:02:29.279 --> 02:02:31.680
<v Speaker 45>Well, I mean like when you first start off on

2028
02:02:31.880 --> 02:02:36.199
<v Speaker 45>that island, the hypothetical island, it's already the case that yeah,

2029
02:02:36.279 --> 02:02:38.000
<v Speaker 45>of course you have to set up some kind of framework,

2030
02:02:38.680 --> 02:02:41.239
<v Speaker 45>like and if you're starting from one that says, yeah,

2031
02:02:41.239 --> 02:02:45.000
<v Speaker 45>I'm going to create this framework, but it's fallible, then

2032
02:02:45.199 --> 02:02:46.199
<v Speaker 45>that's the new difference.

2033
02:02:46.239 --> 02:02:49.079
<v Speaker 1>You don't understand. This is not understand You're not understanding.

2034
02:02:49.079 --> 02:02:50.920
<v Speaker 1>I'm trying to I'm trying to explain it, but you're

2035
02:02:50.960 --> 02:02:54.840
<v Speaker 1>not getting it, and.

2036
02:02:55.239 --> 02:02:58.920
<v Speaker 46>Uh, we got disconnected less then, and no, I was

2037
02:02:59.000 --> 02:03:01.920
<v Speaker 46>just asking about the first of all. Listen today's tag

2038
02:03:02.000 --> 02:03:04.479
<v Speaker 46>arguments and it's so funny they keep talking about the

2039
02:03:04.479 --> 02:03:08.720
<v Speaker 46>island and then they jumped to pre supposing metaphysics.

2040
02:03:09.439 --> 02:03:13.079
<v Speaker 30>By the way, it's just very funny to hear. Uh,

2041
02:03:13.159 --> 02:03:15.159
<v Speaker 30>they're just talking about like women and.

2042
02:03:15.600 --> 02:03:17.800
<v Speaker 1>He's talking about he's talking about Oh.

2043
02:03:17.680 --> 02:03:19.800
<v Speaker 20>Okay, okay, I'm just.

2044
02:03:22.039 --> 02:03:25.840
<v Speaker 30>Uh, just getting back to the women's thing and hold on,

2045
02:03:25.920 --> 02:03:29.359
<v Speaker 30>hold on baby, Uh, just getting back to the women

2046
02:03:29.479 --> 02:03:33.199
<v Speaker 30>thing and it clicking. What would you recommend? Because from

2047
02:03:33.239 --> 02:03:40.479
<v Speaker 30>my perspective, women are very religiously spiritually spiritually minded and uh,

2048
02:03:40.520 --> 02:03:43.319
<v Speaker 30>you know, listening to Except from Rose, he said that

2049
02:03:43.560 --> 02:03:45.920
<v Speaker 30>if you're looking for truth, you shouldn't be looking for

2050
02:03:45.920 --> 02:03:50.119
<v Speaker 30>a spiritual experience. And it feels like women really want

2051
02:03:50.159 --> 02:03:51.359
<v Speaker 30>a spiritual experience.

2052
02:03:53.720 --> 02:03:55.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I think that's a danger for women and the

2053
02:03:56.039 --> 02:03:59.760
<v Speaker 1>feminine men is to seek out these kinds of experiences

2054
02:03:59.760 --> 02:04:03.840
<v Speaker 1>and then they fall into delusion. But we're all susceptible

2055
02:04:03.880 --> 02:04:08.560
<v Speaker 1>to Maybe the women are more susceptible to those kinds

2056
02:04:08.600 --> 02:04:10.920
<v Speaker 1>of spiritual experiences.

2057
02:04:13.199 --> 02:04:18.039
<v Speaker 47>Sid hi Ja, I just wanted to say, I don't

2058
02:04:18.119 --> 02:04:21.560
<v Speaker 47>understand why people can't get the tag argument.

2059
02:04:22.239 --> 02:04:23.159
<v Speaker 34>Like the last two.

2060
02:04:22.960 --> 02:04:27.199
<v Speaker 47>Guys, it's not that hard to understand. Like, I don't know,

2061
02:04:27.319 --> 02:04:30.520
<v Speaker 47>I feel like people just miss the point every single time.

2062
02:04:30.760 --> 02:04:33.920
<v Speaker 47>And there's supposed to be smart, you know, and you

2063
02:04:33.960 --> 02:04:36.960
<v Speaker 47>can like look at their Twitter, but like they just

2064
02:04:37.000 --> 02:04:39.119
<v Speaker 47>can't get a simple argument.

2065
02:04:39.319 --> 02:04:39.520
<v Speaker 48>You know.

2066
02:04:40.680 --> 02:04:42.520
<v Speaker 1>I think a lot of people when they hear the

2067
02:04:42.640 --> 02:04:46.920
<v Speaker 1>terms that I mentioned, and I try to use not

2068
02:04:47.079 --> 02:04:53.960
<v Speaker 1>a lot of terminological, baggage laden terms. If I can't,

2069
02:04:54.359 --> 02:04:57.159
<v Speaker 1>sometimes it's unavoidable. But I think a lot of times

2070
02:04:57.199 --> 02:04:59.239
<v Speaker 1>when people hear those terms or words, they don't think

2071
02:04:59.279 --> 02:05:02.800
<v Speaker 1>they have any reference or they don't know what that is.

2072
02:05:03.600 --> 02:05:03.720
<v Speaker 18>You know.

2073
02:05:03.720 --> 02:05:05.560
<v Speaker 1>A lot of times they say word solid when it's

2074
02:05:05.600 --> 02:05:11.399
<v Speaker 1>just like common philosophical terms. So you know, in those cases,

2075
02:05:11.439 --> 02:05:13.920
<v Speaker 1>you're just talking about people that are just simply uneducated.

2076
02:05:13.920 --> 02:05:15.479
<v Speaker 1>But most of the time, if people want a debate,

2077
02:05:16.000 --> 02:05:18.319
<v Speaker 1>you know, there's a lot of arrogance and people think

2078
02:05:18.359 --> 02:05:21.199
<v Speaker 1>they know what they're talking about. So yeah, at a

2079
02:05:21.199 --> 02:05:24.920
<v Speaker 1>lot of factors here arrogance, ignorance, pride, et cetera.

2080
02:05:26.479 --> 02:05:34.319
<v Speaker 49>Mars chalk and the chat hah fueling this whole debate

2081
02:05:34.399 --> 02:05:40.600
<v Speaker 49>for like forty hours. Yeah, it's been great question on

2082
02:05:41.800 --> 02:05:45.960
<v Speaker 49>the clothing of Adam and Eves. What's the significance for

2083
02:05:46.079 --> 02:05:48.800
<v Speaker 49>the Orthodox Is? I know, back in my Protestant days,

2084
02:05:48.840 --> 02:05:54.520
<v Speaker 49>I used to point the PSA well as as a

2085
02:05:54.520 --> 02:05:58.880
<v Speaker 49>proof for PSA, the whole murdering or killing the animal

2086
02:06:00.159 --> 02:06:03.039
<v Speaker 49>Adam and Eve out of the garden. I never heard

2087
02:06:03.680 --> 02:06:06.439
<v Speaker 49>a take from Orthodox.

2088
02:06:08.600 --> 02:06:09.000
<v Speaker 12>On that.

2089
02:06:09.199 --> 02:06:10.359
<v Speaker 49>I don't know if you ever heard of or or

2090
02:06:10.399 --> 02:06:10.800
<v Speaker 49>have one.

2091
02:06:13.039 --> 02:06:16.159
<v Speaker 1>I don't know why it would prove ps A. I mean,

2092
02:06:16.319 --> 02:06:23.319
<v Speaker 1>it's essentially the skins are there's there's a sacrificial element there.

2093
02:06:23.720 --> 02:06:25.079
<v Speaker 1>But I don't know how that would prove p s

2094
02:06:25.159 --> 02:06:27.840
<v Speaker 1>A because PSA teaches that the Father damns the sun.

2095
02:06:28.000 --> 02:06:29.039
<v Speaker 1>So I don't know what that I have to do

2096
02:06:29.119 --> 02:06:33.960
<v Speaker 1>with God clothing us in the flesh biological bodies that

2097
02:06:34.000 --> 02:06:44.039
<v Speaker 1>we have. Yeah, no, all right, that's cool. Well, how

2098
02:06:44.039 --> 02:06:47.199
<v Speaker 1>does it connect to ps A? I don't understand that leap. Well.

2099
02:06:47.199 --> 02:06:55.359
<v Speaker 49>I always remembered the the idea that Christ for them.

2100
02:06:57.920 --> 02:06:58.439
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, no I have.

2101
02:06:58.560 --> 02:07:00.159
<v Speaker 49>I haven't thought about this in a while from a

2102
02:07:00.199 --> 02:07:02.479
<v Speaker 49>Protestant perspective. I always remember bringing it up.

2103
02:07:02.960 --> 02:07:04.720
<v Speaker 1>That's all right, I mean I think that. I mean

2104
02:07:05.880 --> 02:07:09.159
<v Speaker 1>the skins there are a reference to our bodies, to

2105
02:07:09.199 --> 02:07:13.960
<v Speaker 1>our flesh. Right. Oh, I know what you're thinking. You're

2106
02:07:14.000 --> 02:07:18.560
<v Speaker 1>thinking that the animal. I know what you're thinking. I

2107
02:07:18.600 --> 02:07:20.920
<v Speaker 1>remember now because I remember thinking this as a Protestant too.

2108
02:07:20.920 --> 02:07:22.880
<v Speaker 1>Now it's been a long time, but so yeah, So

2109
02:07:22.920 --> 02:07:25.600
<v Speaker 1>the Protestant thinks that God clothed them with the skin.

2110
02:07:26.479 --> 02:07:26.960
<v Speaker 3>Uh.

2111
02:07:27.039 --> 02:07:31.439
<v Speaker 1>And the Orthodox interpretation, like if you read pinotas Nellsi's

2112
02:07:31.479 --> 02:07:36.359
<v Speaker 1>book Gification in Christ, it's not like a leather coat,

2113
02:07:36.520 --> 02:07:41.319
<v Speaker 1>it's the actual skins that we have. So it's linking

2114
02:07:41.399 --> 02:07:45.760
<v Speaker 1>us to the animal. It's our animal nature, our biological

2115
02:07:45.840 --> 02:07:49.199
<v Speaker 1>animal nature that's being referenced in that text. Is not

2116
02:07:49.479 --> 02:07:50.439
<v Speaker 1>a leather coat.

2117
02:07:51.079 --> 02:07:51.199
<v Speaker 4>Uh.

2118
02:07:51.520 --> 02:07:54.199
<v Speaker 1>But yes, I understand now, I forgot that. Yeah. Protestants

2119
02:07:54.239 --> 02:07:56.399
<v Speaker 1>use that as an example of like ps a like

2120
02:07:57.319 --> 02:08:00.039
<v Speaker 1>Adam and Eve or naked. They're in sin, and so

2121
02:08:00.079 --> 02:08:04.239
<v Speaker 1>God kills an animal and then closes them with the

2122
02:08:04.319 --> 02:08:08.720
<v Speaker 1>leather straps and bikinis so that they can be righteous

2123
02:08:08.760 --> 02:08:12.199
<v Speaker 1>in God's sight. But the Orthodox interpretation is that the

2124
02:08:12.800 --> 02:08:15.760
<v Speaker 1>skins that God made for them is our actual skin.

2125
02:08:16.359 --> 02:08:20.720
<v Speaker 1>So we were stricually naked. God clothed us with flesh

2126
02:08:21.319 --> 02:08:25.640
<v Speaker 1>bodies because they were now mortald. They'd been banished from paradise.

2127
02:08:25.680 --> 02:08:28.960
<v Speaker 1>They're now mortal because you notice they had bodies prior

2128
02:08:29.000 --> 02:08:32.159
<v Speaker 1>to that, right, But now we are given these, as

2129
02:08:32.159 --> 02:08:36.800
<v Speaker 1>Paul says, lowly bodies in anticipation of the resurrected, glorified body.

2130
02:08:37.560 --> 02:08:40.039
<v Speaker 1>Anybody else we got still three hundred dollars for under

2131
02:08:40.079 --> 02:08:44.119
<v Speaker 1>people in here? Any other questions, comments, disagreements, debates, topics.

2132
02:08:44.680 --> 02:08:46.920
<v Speaker 1>We actually got a lot more high quality people towards

2133
02:08:46.960 --> 02:08:55.000
<v Speaker 1>the end here, Crusade. Where'd you go?

2134
02:08:55.079 --> 02:08:55.279
<v Speaker 20>Man?

2135
02:08:56.000 --> 02:08:58.640
<v Speaker 1>You dropped off Crusade? You want to come back?

2136
02:09:13.000 --> 02:09:13.159
<v Speaker 12>Hey?

2137
02:09:13.239 --> 02:09:20.520
<v Speaker 1>Jay, can you hear me? Go ahead?

2138
02:09:21.000 --> 02:09:23.760
<v Speaker 50>Hey, I was just listening to Alex and the Make

2139
02:09:23.840 --> 02:09:26.079
<v Speaker 50>Line guy, And what do you think about them? Listening

2140
02:09:26.119 --> 02:09:28.039
<v Speaker 50>to the Bons and Stein debate. It seems like in

2141
02:09:28.079 --> 02:09:32.319
<v Speaker 50>about two hours he uh summarizes your arguments just in

2142
02:09:32.359 --> 02:09:37.279
<v Speaker 50>a phenomenal way and ask them to account for the

2143
02:09:37.359 --> 02:09:39.920
<v Speaker 50>laws of logic in a materialistic worldview.

2144
02:09:42.600 --> 02:09:45.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely everybody should listen to the Box and Stein debate.

2145
02:09:45.359 --> 02:09:47.319
<v Speaker 1>And but who are you talking about? Alex who? Alex

2146
02:09:47.399 --> 02:09:49.439
<v Speaker 1>Jones or no, Alex the guy the.

2147
02:09:51.000 --> 02:09:54.159
<v Speaker 50>He just came on just after the make Lion Guy

2148
02:09:54.520 --> 02:09:56.279
<v Speaker 50>and the Island.

2149
02:09:58.119 --> 02:09:59.359
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if he's still in there. I think

2150
02:09:59.359 --> 02:10:03.520
<v Speaker 1>he left anyway it but yeah, everybody can check out

2151
02:10:03.520 --> 02:10:05.520
<v Speaker 1>the Box and Stein debate. I also did a talk

2152
02:10:05.560 --> 02:10:07.640
<v Speaker 1>on the Box and Stein debate. If people are interested,

2153
02:10:07.680 --> 02:10:11.560
<v Speaker 1>if they want to go hear that anybody else. If not,

2154
02:10:11.640 --> 02:10:14.359
<v Speaker 1>we'll call it call it an evening. I guess last

2155
02:10:14.439 --> 02:10:28.560
<v Speaker 1>chances Gypsy got sorry about that?

2156
02:10:28.600 --> 02:10:29.000
<v Speaker 10>Can you hear me?

2157
02:10:31.279 --> 02:10:32.239
<v Speaker 1>Hey, it's a quick question.

2158
02:10:32.279 --> 02:10:38.359
<v Speaker 51>I was reading a story regarding Saint Athanasius and that

2159
02:10:40.359 --> 02:10:46.880
<v Speaker 51>his teacher may have been Alexander of Alexandria had chastised

2160
02:10:46.920 --> 02:10:49.000
<v Speaker 51>him as a young boy and his friends for playing

2161
02:10:49.119 --> 02:10:51.439
<v Speaker 51>pretend baptisms, and he said the reason why was that

2162
02:10:51.479 --> 02:10:53.279
<v Speaker 51>those baptisms were truly valid.

2163
02:10:54.039 --> 02:10:59.560
<v Speaker 1>Is that something of the Orthodox Church accepts. I've never

2164
02:10:59.600 --> 02:11:01.920
<v Speaker 1>heard this story, but no, I don't think anybody would

2165
02:11:01.960 --> 02:11:04.359
<v Speaker 1>accept the pretend baptisms are well.

2166
02:11:04.479 --> 02:11:07.039
<v Speaker 51>The reason I'm asking is not because of that particular instance,

2167
02:11:07.079 --> 02:11:11.000
<v Speaker 51>but like the idea that you know, a Protestant or

2168
02:11:11.000 --> 02:11:13.760
<v Speaker 51>a Catholic or any other kind of heterodox Christian could

2169
02:11:13.840 --> 02:11:16.560
<v Speaker 51>perform a valid baptism. And why I'm asking is we

2170
02:11:16.560 --> 02:11:21.000
<v Speaker 51>wouldn't accept heterodox any other heterodox sacrament, but we do

2171
02:11:21.039 --> 02:11:24.159
<v Speaker 51>accept baptisms as long as the trinitarian So I wonder

2172
02:11:24.199 --> 02:11:24.800
<v Speaker 51>why that is.

2173
02:11:27.159 --> 02:11:29.920
<v Speaker 1>Well, sometimes but not always. So there's a lot of

2174
02:11:29.960 --> 02:11:35.880
<v Speaker 1>canonical strictures and precedents and procedures for when it's supposed

2175
02:11:35.920 --> 02:11:40.000
<v Speaker 1>to be accepted or not accepted. So, for example, there's

2176
02:11:40.039 --> 02:11:42.840
<v Speaker 1>canons in the sixth Council to talk about not accepting

2177
02:11:42.880 --> 02:11:45.119
<v Speaker 1>you know, mean baptism even if it's done with the

2178
02:11:45.199 --> 02:11:48.640
<v Speaker 1>right names. So it really is supposed to ultimately be

2179
02:11:48.760 --> 02:11:53.039
<v Speaker 1>kind of a case by case basis. So that's what

2180
02:11:53.039 --> 02:11:55.560
<v Speaker 1>I would say. Okay, well that's all I got, thanks man.

2181
02:11:56.439 --> 02:11:58.760
<v Speaker 29>Well, and I just joined it real quick. Something on

2182
02:11:58.800 --> 02:12:02.880
<v Speaker 29>that that I noticed people don't understand is that grace

2183
02:12:03.079 --> 02:12:06.640
<v Speaker 29>is not one thing like you go and you buy

2184
02:12:06.840 --> 02:12:08.680
<v Speaker 29>you buy a tie, and it's like, okay, buy this

2185
02:12:08.720 --> 02:12:12.479
<v Speaker 29>one tie. God's uncreated grace is not just one thing.

2186
02:12:12.920 --> 02:12:15.319
<v Speaker 29>There's all types of grace that is that are offered

2187
02:12:15.399 --> 02:12:16.439
<v Speaker 29>in different ways.

2188
02:12:16.960 --> 02:12:18.800
<v Speaker 20>So there's a lot of.

2189
02:12:18.800 --> 02:12:22.960
<v Speaker 29>Nuance there, you know. But it's not it's not just oh,

2190
02:12:23.319 --> 02:12:25.800
<v Speaker 29>we accept baptisms so they are the church.

2191
02:12:25.960 --> 02:12:27.920
<v Speaker 12>It's like, well, there's a whole lot.

2192
02:12:27.800 --> 02:12:30.680
<v Speaker 29>Of nuance there with how what grace is in different

2193
02:12:30.720 --> 02:12:31.439
<v Speaker 29>types of grace?

2194
02:12:32.119 --> 02:12:36.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely, and also if I mean even sant Augustine

2195
02:12:36.800 --> 02:12:40.079
<v Speaker 1>pointed out that even though the baptisms outside the church

2196
02:12:40.159 --> 02:12:44.760
<v Speaker 1>might be valid, if the person persists in heresy, the

2197
02:12:44.840 --> 02:12:50.239
<v Speaker 1>grace doesn't. There's an impediment to the grace. So the

2198
02:12:50.279 --> 02:12:56.520
<v Speaker 1>impediment is not removed until they profess Orthodoxy. So, uh,

2199
02:12:56.760 --> 02:12:58.159
<v Speaker 1>dick or sith, what's up?

2200
02:12:58.479 --> 02:12:58.760
<v Speaker 20>Hello?

2201
02:13:00.960 --> 02:13:01.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

2202
02:13:01.239 --> 02:13:05.079
<v Speaker 52>Hey, So I'm an inquirer, but I was watching a

2203
02:13:05.119 --> 02:13:08.600
<v Speaker 52>debate recently between god logic. I think his name is

2204
02:13:08.600 --> 02:13:13.039
<v Speaker 52>a Orthodox Muslim, but basically Orthodox Muslim was like pressing

2205
02:13:13.119 --> 02:13:19.960
<v Speaker 52>him on John twenty, verse seventeen, and the god Logic's

2206
02:13:20.000 --> 02:13:25.119
<v Speaker 52>response was that, like, because Jesus became flesh, that then

2207
02:13:25.159 --> 02:13:27.479
<v Speaker 52>he can have a God. But like, isn't that like

2208
02:13:27.600 --> 02:13:29.600
<v Speaker 52>an historian like way to think about it.

2209
02:13:31.800 --> 02:13:34.760
<v Speaker 1>No, Jesus is the second person of the Godhead and

2210
02:13:34.880 --> 02:13:38.840
<v Speaker 1>always refers to the Father as his God and our God,

2211
02:13:38.960 --> 02:13:41.920
<v Speaker 1>your Father and my Father. This is why the Orthodox

2212
02:13:42.000 --> 02:13:46.479
<v Speaker 1>Church teaches what's called monarchical trinitarianism, that the one God

2213
02:13:46.680 --> 02:13:48.319
<v Speaker 1>is the person of the Father.

2214
02:13:48.279 --> 02:13:49.239
<v Speaker 35>So Jesus.

2215
02:13:49.319 --> 02:13:54.760
<v Speaker 52>So the Father isn't Jesus's God outside of the incarnation or.

2216
02:13:56.920 --> 02:13:59.760
<v Speaker 1>No, he's eternally the God of Christ from all e

2217
02:13:59.800 --> 02:14:02.760
<v Speaker 1>t because the Christ is the son of the Father.

2218
02:14:02.920 --> 02:14:03.239
<v Speaker 34>Okay.

2219
02:14:03.239 --> 02:14:05.560
<v Speaker 52>But like when he's saying that, like okay, well, like

2220
02:14:05.640 --> 02:14:07.680
<v Speaker 52>my Father and your Father, my God and your God,

2221
02:14:07.720 --> 02:14:10.680
<v Speaker 52>Like that's still accurate in the sense that like like

2222
02:14:10.720 --> 02:14:11.920
<v Speaker 52>that is from eternity.

2223
02:14:11.960 --> 02:14:13.960
<v Speaker 12>He's his God, right or like.

2224
02:14:15.399 --> 02:14:19.199
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, yeah, it's an eternal generating of the Son, So

2225
02:14:19.239 --> 02:14:20.000
<v Speaker 1>he's eternally.

2226
02:14:20.079 --> 02:14:22.840
<v Speaker 52>Yeah, But the reasoning that, like he's only his God

2227
02:14:22.960 --> 02:14:27.000
<v Speaker 52>in the sense of just becoming flesh, like that's not correct, right.

2228
02:14:27.159 --> 02:14:33.079
<v Speaker 1>No, that's not true because again monarchical trinitarianism, as is

2229
02:14:33.119 --> 02:14:35.600
<v Speaker 1>confessed in the Creed and in the Book of James

2230
02:14:35.680 --> 02:14:38.840
<v Speaker 1>and in Paul's letters for us, there is one God,

2231
02:14:39.000 --> 02:14:42.199
<v Speaker 1>the Father Almighty. All good gifts come down from the

2232
02:14:42.239 --> 02:14:45.600
<v Speaker 1>Father of lights. So it is from all eternity that

2233
02:14:45.760 --> 02:14:47.840
<v Speaker 1>the one God is the person of the Father.

2234
02:14:48.399 --> 02:14:48.840
<v Speaker 11>I see.

2235
02:14:49.199 --> 02:14:51.239
<v Speaker 1>It's called monarchical Trinitarians.

2236
02:14:51.279 --> 02:14:53.359
<v Speaker 52>That kind of leads into like my second just kind

2237
02:14:53.359 --> 02:14:56.760
<v Speaker 52>of question just like regarding like just you know, the Trinity.

2238
02:14:57.560 --> 02:14:59.520
<v Speaker 3>Uh so if.

2239
02:15:00.760 --> 02:15:01.640
<v Speaker 34>How do I say this?

2240
02:15:02.960 --> 02:15:06.760
<v Speaker 52>Okay, so if Christ, like you know, he pre exists,

2241
02:15:06.960 --> 02:15:10.479
<v Speaker 52>like creation and a creation exilo and like like let's say,

2242
02:15:10.479 --> 02:15:13.680
<v Speaker 52>like I accept the deity of Christ, right, Like where

2243
02:15:13.720 --> 02:15:17.159
<v Speaker 52>like where does that logically follow from that that they

2244
02:15:17.199 --> 02:15:20.439
<v Speaker 52>are that the Son and the Father are like the

2245
02:15:20.479 --> 02:15:21.199
<v Speaker 52>same being?

2246
02:15:21.840 --> 02:15:22.039
<v Speaker 1>Right?

2247
02:15:22.079 --> 02:15:23.920
<v Speaker 52>Because I know in an article trinity, like you know

2248
02:15:24.399 --> 02:15:26.479
<v Speaker 52>the Father, like you make the analogy between a king

2249
02:15:26.560 --> 02:15:28.199
<v Speaker 52>and the prince. But the king and the prince like

2250
02:15:28.239 --> 02:15:32.640
<v Speaker 52>they have the same nature, but they're still different beings,

2251
02:15:33.000 --> 02:15:33.520
<v Speaker 52>like they're.

2252
02:15:33.359 --> 02:15:35.279
<v Speaker 1>You know what I mean? Well, the difference is that, right?

2253
02:15:35.319 --> 02:15:38.680
<v Speaker 1>So the difference is that amongst humans who are created,

2254
02:15:38.840 --> 02:15:42.439
<v Speaker 1>we are distinct, discrete beings, and God is and the

2255
02:15:42.720 --> 02:15:45.960
<v Speaker 1>Father and the Son are not discreet. They endwell one

2256
02:15:46.000 --> 02:15:49.600
<v Speaker 1>another in terms of peracusis, and they share the same nature.

2257
02:15:49.720 --> 02:15:53.720
<v Speaker 1>So there's a mystical unity amongst the members of the Trinity,

2258
02:15:54.319 --> 02:15:58.239
<v Speaker 1>which human beings don't possess except in the Church. And

2259
02:15:58.279 --> 02:16:01.079
<v Speaker 1>that's why in the High Priestly of Christ and John

2260
02:16:01.159 --> 02:16:04.720
<v Speaker 1>fourteen fifteen, sixteen seventeen, he says, you will be one

2261
02:16:04.880 --> 02:16:08.199
<v Speaker 1>as I and the Father are one. So that and

2262
02:16:08.239 --> 02:16:11.239
<v Speaker 1>that goes beyond just a moral joining with Christ. It's

2263
02:16:11.279 --> 02:16:14.800
<v Speaker 1>also intending to signify a shared energy or glory that

2264
02:16:14.840 --> 02:16:18.960
<v Speaker 1>we partake of, So it has to be not just

2265
02:16:21.039 --> 02:16:23.279
<v Speaker 1>a unity of nature, but also it refers to the

2266
02:16:23.319 --> 02:16:25.239
<v Speaker 1>paraphoresis or the divine in dwelling.

2267
02:16:25.880 --> 02:16:28.760
<v Speaker 52>Okay, so I get that, but like, like what is

2268
02:16:28.800 --> 02:16:32.520
<v Speaker 52>there any scripture or anything like that could help me understand,

2269
02:16:32.559 --> 02:16:34.680
<v Speaker 52>Like why would Jesus just not be Like why could

2270
02:16:34.719 --> 02:16:36.719
<v Speaker 52>I not just think of Jesus like a second God,

2271
02:16:36.799 --> 02:16:38.680
<v Speaker 52>Like not that he doesn't have the same nature, but

2272
02:16:38.760 --> 02:16:41.760
<v Speaker 52>like if I assume, like, okay, the Father and the

2273
02:16:41.799 --> 02:16:45.079
<v Speaker 52>Son they have the same nature, but because there's that distinction,

2274
02:16:45.200 --> 02:16:47.840
<v Speaker 52>like why wouldn't they just be like to God, Like

2275
02:16:47.879 --> 02:16:49.719
<v Speaker 52>why wouldn't there just be two gods or three gods?

2276
02:16:49.760 --> 02:16:51.200
<v Speaker 3>With the poor spirit?

2277
02:16:53.239 --> 02:16:56.040
<v Speaker 1>Well, because the word God can pick out different things,

2278
02:16:56.280 --> 02:16:59.879
<v Speaker 1>and it's usually been used to pick out the person

2279
02:17:00.079 --> 02:17:04.000
<v Speaker 1>of the Father. So if you're referring to the whole trinity,

2280
02:17:04.360 --> 02:17:07.920
<v Speaker 1>then God is the trinity. If you're referring to the

2281
02:17:07.920 --> 02:17:11.680
<v Speaker 1>divine nature, there is one divine nature, right, and that's

2282
02:17:12.000 --> 02:17:15.159
<v Speaker 1>the divinity expressed in in God, the Father and the Trinity.

2283
02:17:15.760 --> 02:17:18.520
<v Speaker 1>If you're referring to one God because of the in dwelling,

2284
02:17:18.639 --> 02:17:20.600
<v Speaker 1>there's one God because they all through the persons and

2285
02:17:20.680 --> 02:17:24.520
<v Speaker 1>dwell one another perfectly. So the word God can also

2286
02:17:24.600 --> 02:17:27.879
<v Speaker 1>pick out the divine energies. So the mistake is I

2287
02:17:27.920 --> 02:17:30.760
<v Speaker 1>think in thinking that God has a single reference, and

2288
02:17:30.799 --> 02:17:34.639
<v Speaker 1>that's usually the way, like Mormons are Muslims argue.

2289
02:17:34.360 --> 02:17:36.399
<v Speaker 52>Okay, so you would so you would say it doesn't

2290
02:17:36.559 --> 02:17:40.920
<v Speaker 52>violate the laws laws of identity because based pretty much

2291
02:17:41.000 --> 02:17:44.639
<v Speaker 52>like the main like the like the main person of

2292
02:17:44.719 --> 02:17:46.879
<v Speaker 52>God is the Father, like the Son and the Spirit

2293
02:17:46.959 --> 02:17:50.079
<v Speaker 52>like they're because they come from the Father, like, it's

2294
02:17:50.120 --> 02:17:50.840
<v Speaker 52>still one God.

2295
02:17:51.040 --> 02:17:54.520
<v Speaker 1>Basically, that's what you're trying to say, correct, And they

2296
02:17:54.559 --> 02:18:00.040
<v Speaker 1>recapitulate in the Father, as the Cappadocians say. So the

2297
02:18:00.079 --> 02:18:02.840
<v Speaker 1>movement in the trinity of the energies also shows the

2298
02:18:02.959 --> 02:18:05.680
<v Speaker 1>unity of God because every movement is from the Father,

2299
02:18:05.799 --> 02:18:08.559
<v Speaker 1>through the Sun and in the Spirit, and so it's

2300
02:18:08.600 --> 02:18:12.920
<v Speaker 1>a never ending circle. As Basil says, So there's one

2301
02:18:13.000 --> 02:18:16.280
<v Speaker 1>God because there's one energy and one action, and that

2302
02:18:16.319 --> 02:18:18.959
<v Speaker 1>one energy one action is also multiple at the same

2303
02:18:19.000 --> 02:18:21.079
<v Speaker 1>thought at the same time. So for a lot of

2304
02:18:21.200 --> 02:18:24.719
<v Speaker 1>Orthodoxiology it's a both and but if you look off

2305
02:18:24.760 --> 02:18:27.520
<v Speaker 1>the word monotheism and I actually put this on my

2306
02:18:27.559 --> 02:18:31.079
<v Speaker 1>wall today because uh croc believe or not actually got

2307
02:18:31.120 --> 02:18:34.799
<v Speaker 1>it right. And the word monotheism is actually a sixteen

2308
02:18:34.959 --> 02:18:39.079
<v Speaker 1>sixties era term. It doesn't even exist until the sixteen sixties.

2309
02:18:39.840 --> 02:18:42.360
<v Speaker 1>And so when the Capadocians are when anybody in the

2310
02:18:42.399 --> 02:18:45.120
<v Speaker 1>scripture is right, we believe in one God, the Father Almighty.

2311
02:18:45.360 --> 02:18:47.719
<v Speaker 1>So like the Creed says, right, I believe one God,

2312
02:18:47.840 --> 02:18:50.959
<v Speaker 1>the Father. And then it says God from God, Light

2313
02:18:51.040 --> 02:18:55.159
<v Speaker 1>from Light. Well, in the Creed that's just picking out

2314
02:18:55.159 --> 02:18:58.600
<v Speaker 1>the word God. There is picking out the hypostasis, right,

2315
02:18:59.200 --> 02:19:02.959
<v Speaker 1>So God from God means hypostasis from hypostasis, it's not

2316
02:19:03.000 --> 02:19:08.040
<v Speaker 1>referring to different natures or two different divine natures.

2317
02:19:08.680 --> 02:19:11.079
<v Speaker 52>Okay, yeah, I guess that's all for now, Thanks bro.

2318
02:19:13.120 --> 02:19:15.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but if you read John fourteen to seventeen, I mean,

2319
02:19:15.799 --> 02:19:17.440
<v Speaker 1>that would probably be one of the best places to

2320
02:19:17.479 --> 02:19:23.520
<v Speaker 1>see this, the nature of this union and distinction within maternity. Dick,

2321
02:19:23.639 --> 02:19:23.959
<v Speaker 1>what's up?

2322
02:19:24.000 --> 02:19:25.000
<v Speaker 12>Hey, what's up? Can you hear me?

2323
02:19:26.360 --> 02:19:30.559
<v Speaker 36>Yes, sir, hey, this kind of ties into the Catholic thing,

2324
02:19:30.760 --> 02:19:35.079
<v Speaker 36>But and it ties into the the Ira thing that

2325
02:19:35.120 --> 02:19:37.319
<v Speaker 36>we were talking about, or you were talking about a

2326
02:19:37.360 --> 02:19:41.559
<v Speaker 36>couple of days ago. But I was reading recently The

2327
02:19:41.600 --> 02:19:43.680
<v Speaker 36>Perfect Holocaust and who kept it perfect?

2328
02:19:43.760 --> 02:19:47.639
<v Speaker 12>By Chris Fogerty. And have you heard of that book.

2329
02:19:52.280 --> 02:19:52.920
<v Speaker 1>I've not heard of it.

2330
02:19:53.040 --> 02:19:55.079
<v Speaker 12>Okay, well it's essentially.

2331
02:19:54.680 --> 02:20:00.399
<v Speaker 36>The the leading up to the Potato Family, which is

2332
02:20:00.399 --> 02:20:06.319
<v Speaker 36>really an attempt at Holocaust. But yeah, yeah, But anyway,

2333
02:20:06.399 --> 02:20:10.959
<v Speaker 36>it was interesting because, uh, he doesn't put the dots together,

2334
02:20:11.120 --> 02:20:15.159
<v Speaker 36>but he kind of talks about how, you know, the

2335
02:20:15.360 --> 02:20:19.399
<v Speaker 36>William the Conquer, will was it William the Conquer, William

2336
02:20:19.399 --> 02:20:23.680
<v Speaker 36>the bastard, the Norman who took over England, and then

2337
02:20:23.719 --> 02:20:25.799
<v Speaker 36>of course, you know, the Normans tried to take over

2338
02:20:25.879 --> 02:20:30.399
<v Speaker 36>Ireland afterwards, and you know, maybe two hundred years afterwards,

2339
02:20:30.440 --> 02:20:33.239
<v Speaker 36>and then the first and I think the only British pope,

2340
02:20:33.440 --> 02:20:37.319
<v Speaker 36>Pope Adrian, was the one that sent the Normans in

2341
02:20:37.399 --> 02:20:41.680
<v Speaker 36>the English into Ireland to from our perspective, which I

2342
02:20:41.680 --> 02:20:47.319
<v Speaker 36>think is obviously the right perspective forcibly convert or make

2343
02:20:47.399 --> 02:20:52.120
<v Speaker 36>the Irish submit to the pope. But anyway, he gives

2344
02:20:52.200 --> 02:20:55.000
<v Speaker 36>in the first like in the first chapter, it's about

2345
02:20:55.040 --> 02:20:58.799
<v Speaker 36>sixty eight pages. I think like that like probably at

2346
02:20:58.879 --> 02:21:02.559
<v Speaker 36>least six instances of where the Catholic Church going all

2347
02:21:02.559 --> 02:21:09.000
<v Speaker 36>the way up to the pope excommunicates groups of Irish

2348
02:21:09.319 --> 02:21:13.200
<v Speaker 36>that rise up against the.

2349
02:21:12.440 --> 02:21:17.200
<v Speaker 1>English too, that are wow, I don't know this.

2350
02:21:18.280 --> 02:21:22.799
<v Speaker 36>Yeah, so they they excommunicate the Irish that rise up

2351
02:21:22.799 --> 02:21:28.200
<v Speaker 36>against the English that are well first they rise up.

2352
02:21:28.639 --> 02:21:32.120
<v Speaker 36>He doesn't state this explicitly, I kind of it's implied

2353
02:21:32.120 --> 02:21:34.760
<v Speaker 36>if you kind of know the history between the East

2354
02:21:34.760 --> 02:21:41.840
<v Speaker 36>and West that you know, Ox to Catholic and then

2355
02:21:42.639 --> 02:21:45.200
<v Speaker 36>you know, you're talking about how the northern uh, northern

2356
02:21:45.280 --> 02:21:49.079
<v Speaker 36>Ireland right now, even back in you know, as early

2357
02:21:49.079 --> 02:21:53.680
<v Speaker 36>as the sixteen hundreds were Protestant, and of course they

2358
02:21:54.520 --> 02:21:59.079
<v Speaker 36>the English used Protestantism too as a geopolitical tool to

2359
02:22:00.040 --> 02:22:03.479
<v Speaker 36>subject the Irish well in the same way they use

2360
02:22:03.600 --> 02:22:05.680
<v Speaker 36>Catholicism to subject.

2361
02:22:05.319 --> 02:22:07.799
<v Speaker 12>The Irish under the pope.

2362
02:22:08.120 --> 02:22:10.639
<v Speaker 36>And it's interesting, well I read it because I'm Irish,

2363
02:22:11.000 --> 02:22:14.959
<v Speaker 36>you know, part Irish, and it's interesting because they use

2364
02:22:15.040 --> 02:22:20.399
<v Speaker 36>the same tactics to convert them to Catholic, the Roman

2365
02:22:20.440 --> 02:22:22.440
<v Speaker 36>Catholic the way.

2366
02:22:22.520 --> 02:22:26.200
<v Speaker 1>So this is this is great. So prior to the Reformation,

2367
02:22:27.120 --> 02:22:30.280
<v Speaker 1>the English have been conquered by the Normans. We're using

2368
02:22:30.799 --> 02:22:35.920
<v Speaker 1>papal fourth to enslave the Irish to the papacy. And

2369
02:22:35.959 --> 02:22:39.639
<v Speaker 1>then when the Protestant Reformation happens, when England becomes Protestant

2370
02:22:39.920 --> 02:22:42.559
<v Speaker 1>they use the exact same divide and conquer model by

2371
02:22:42.840 --> 02:22:44.920
<v Speaker 1>Northern Ireland being very very similar.

2372
02:22:45.959 --> 02:22:50.079
<v Speaker 36>And as a matter of fact, they used forced tithing

2373
02:22:50.280 --> 02:22:56.120
<v Speaker 36>on the Irish for the Protestant Church, so they would

2374
02:22:56.159 --> 02:22:58.440
<v Speaker 36>have to tie first to the Protestant Church and then

2375
02:22:58.479 --> 02:23:01.840
<v Speaker 36>and then to the Catholic Church. And on top of that,

2376
02:23:01.879 --> 02:23:07.920
<v Speaker 36>the Catholic Church would excommunicate rebellions, people rebelling against the

2377
02:23:08.920 --> 02:23:13.840
<v Speaker 36>against the English crown trying to subject them. But that's

2378
02:23:13.879 --> 02:23:17.479
<v Speaker 36>all in the first sixty sixty pages. It's worth a read.

2379
02:23:17.799 --> 02:23:20.319
<v Speaker 36>And then you know, of course, the main focus of

2380
02:23:20.319 --> 02:23:26.760
<v Speaker 36>the book is on the Irish Holocaust, which, yeah, the

2381
02:23:26.799 --> 02:23:33.920
<v Speaker 36>potato famine, which in what's that it's called the perfect

2382
02:23:33.959 --> 02:23:38.399
<v Speaker 36>Holocaust and who kept it perfect? And it's by Chris Fogerty,

2383
02:23:39.959 --> 02:23:43.760
<v Speaker 36>and most of it, like i'd say about half of

2384
02:23:43.799 --> 02:23:46.040
<v Speaker 36>it is primary sources.

2385
02:23:47.559 --> 02:23:48.920
<v Speaker 12>And like how.

2386
02:23:50.239 --> 02:23:55.200
<v Speaker 36>The English would during this is specifically during the Holocaust,

2387
02:23:55.239 --> 02:23:58.239
<v Speaker 36>they had you know, the Irish, you know, the main

2388
02:23:59.639 --> 02:24:02.399
<v Speaker 36>means line history, I guess, is that all the Irish

2389
02:24:02.399 --> 02:24:05.040
<v Speaker 36>were just you know, rubes and they only grew potatoes,

2390
02:24:05.440 --> 02:24:07.680
<v Speaker 36>which is absurd, you know, which is kind of absurd

2391
02:24:07.719 --> 02:24:11.040
<v Speaker 36>because you know, it's the Emerald Isle and they've always

2392
02:24:11.079 --> 02:24:14.159
<v Speaker 36>been known to have the best you know, dairy and

2393
02:24:14.159 --> 02:24:16.559
<v Speaker 36>and stuff in butter, and you know that's like where

2394
02:24:16.600 --> 02:24:19.639
<v Speaker 36>carry gold butter is like world you know, renown and butter.

2395
02:24:19.479 --> 02:24:20.200
<v Speaker 12>And stuff like that.

2396
02:24:20.239 --> 02:24:24.680
<v Speaker 36>But yeah, yeah, and it's you know, it's great. And

2397
02:24:24.760 --> 02:24:29.680
<v Speaker 36>but they talk about how they had legitimate like food

2398
02:24:29.719 --> 02:24:34.159
<v Speaker 36>stores all over Ireland and they wouldn't give it to

2399
02:24:34.200 --> 02:24:36.200
<v Speaker 36>the Irish people who were growing it, and they were

2400
02:24:36.280 --> 02:24:39.559
<v Speaker 36>using for exportation, you know, because of you know, the

2401
02:24:39.639 --> 02:24:41.280
<v Speaker 36>English imperium.

2402
02:24:42.159 --> 02:24:45.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I remember Tim Kelly used to talk about them.

2403
02:24:45.120 --> 02:24:45.319
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

2404
02:24:46.000 --> 02:24:48.639
<v Speaker 36>But anyway, like I said, it's not explicit in there.

2405
02:24:48.680 --> 02:24:50.920
<v Speaker 36>He doesn't say it explicitly, but if you look at

2406
02:24:50.959 --> 02:24:55.680
<v Speaker 36>it from an East West like Orthodox Catholic perspective and

2407
02:24:55.840 --> 02:24:58.959
<v Speaker 36>the Great Schism, it's pretty obvious what was happening before

2408
02:24:59.159 --> 02:25:01.239
<v Speaker 36>even the the Reformation.

2409
02:25:03.680 --> 02:25:06.159
<v Speaker 1>How many people It's hard to.

2410
02:25:06.040 --> 02:25:09.399
<v Speaker 12>Say, but his estimates go anywhere.

2411
02:25:09.600 --> 02:25:14.719
<v Speaker 36>So the total population of Ireland before the Holocaust or famine,

2412
02:25:14.879 --> 02:25:17.200
<v Speaker 36>whatever you want to call it, was about twelve million,

2413
02:25:17.799 --> 02:25:18.280
<v Speaker 36>and then.

2414
02:25:18.319 --> 02:25:22.799
<v Speaker 12>After it was about five to six million. And that's not.

2415
02:25:22.920 --> 02:25:25.680
<v Speaker 36>All that's not all death, you know, because there was

2416
02:25:26.520 --> 02:25:29.479
<v Speaker 36>a huge amount of displacement. You know, obviously there's a

2417
02:25:29.559 --> 02:25:36.040
<v Speaker 36>huge migration to America. And also they would not just

2418
02:25:36.840 --> 02:25:39.799
<v Speaker 36>kill people, but they would enslave them and you know,

2419
02:25:39.920 --> 02:25:42.799
<v Speaker 36>send them to the to the Caribbean islands, where they

2420
02:25:42.799 --> 02:25:45.879
<v Speaker 36>would essentially die because they're in Ireland and there's no

2421
02:25:45.920 --> 02:25:48.200
<v Speaker 36>sun in Ireland. Then they go to Caribbean and they die.

2422
02:25:49.440 --> 02:25:54.600
<v Speaker 36>But yeah, so it's the the records from his book,

2423
02:25:54.639 --> 02:25:57.520
<v Speaker 36>are they vary, but it's it was about half the

2424
02:25:57.559 --> 02:25:59.520
<v Speaker 36>population of the entire.

2425
02:26:01.000 --> 02:26:01.479
<v Speaker 12>Island.

2426
02:26:01.799 --> 02:26:06.319
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the British or.

2427
02:26:08.200 --> 02:26:12.319
<v Speaker 36>Yeah, and you know, of course there's Goes, who's the

2428
02:26:13.520 --> 02:26:16.239
<v Speaker 36>his name's escaping me right now. But one of the

2429
02:26:16.319 --> 02:26:21.959
<v Speaker 36>main he conspired to assassinate the king in the sixteen

2430
02:26:22.040 --> 02:26:22.920
<v Speaker 36>or seventeen.

2431
02:26:22.600 --> 02:26:24.879
<v Speaker 1>Hundreds killed the butcher.

2432
02:26:25.440 --> 02:26:28.120
<v Speaker 12>I can't remember. No, he was in he was in England.

2433
02:26:28.319 --> 02:26:30.879
<v Speaker 1>He's a no.

2434
02:26:32.280 --> 02:26:34.559
<v Speaker 36>I can't remember his name. I want to say Cornwalls,

2435
02:26:34.600 --> 02:26:37.520
<v Speaker 36>but that's not it. I can't remember his name. He's

2436
02:26:37.559 --> 02:26:44.040
<v Speaker 36>a huge I can't remember his name. He wasn't the

2437
02:26:44.079 --> 02:26:48.760
<v Speaker 36>only one, but there were other characters that took Jewish

2438
02:26:49.040 --> 02:26:55.799
<v Speaker 36>money to continue the the persecution of the of the Irish.

2439
02:26:55.879 --> 02:26:58.440
<v Speaker 12>Anyway, I just thought you might find that interesting.

2440
02:26:59.600 --> 02:27:01.920
<v Speaker 36>Yeah, but get that book I got, and I think

2441
02:27:01.959 --> 02:27:05.079
<v Speaker 36>he's still alive. And he actually autographed my book with

2442
02:27:05.159 --> 02:27:06.799
<v Speaker 36>the book when I ordered it from him, so it's

2443
02:27:06.840 --> 02:27:07.360
<v Speaker 36>pretty cool.

2444
02:27:07.840 --> 02:27:09.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

2445
02:27:09.680 --> 02:27:11.840
<v Speaker 12>Anyway, thanks ma'am.

2446
02:27:12.120 --> 02:27:17.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, thanks Sick. Those are great points, Crusade.

2447
02:27:18.920 --> 02:27:23.200
<v Speaker 35>What's up, g Yeah, first of all, I want to

2448
02:27:23.680 --> 02:27:30.760
<v Speaker 35>say sorry first if my English is bad, so I

2449
02:27:29.399 --> 02:27:34.000
<v Speaker 35>will kind of watch your debate about Jainism. So my

2450
02:27:34.159 --> 02:27:39.120
<v Speaker 35>question is, uh, do you think Christians will support Israel

2451
02:27:40.280 --> 02:27:43.559
<v Speaker 35>on the war in Gaza?

2452
02:27:44.760 --> 02:27:46.040
<v Speaker 1>What I didn't understanding that.

2453
02:27:46.760 --> 02:27:52.399
<v Speaker 35>Do you think Christians support Israel in the war between.

2454
02:27:53.239 --> 02:27:58.799
<v Speaker 1>Christian I think a Christian would probably support the minority

2455
02:27:59.200 --> 02:28:04.680
<v Speaker 1>Orthodox in the Palestinian era, they wouldn't support necessarily either one.

2456
02:28:05.680 --> 02:28:08.879
<v Speaker 1>We don't like a Moss and we wouldn't like uh

2457
02:28:10.399 --> 02:28:23.040
<v Speaker 1>anti Christian Judaism. Pastor Kevin, Pastor Kevin, you get unmute.

2458
02:28:27.159 --> 02:28:27.959
<v Speaker 49>I can feel it.

2459
02:28:28.000 --> 02:28:30.479
<v Speaker 29>I can feel he's going to uh, he's gonna lay

2460
02:28:30.479 --> 02:28:32.799
<v Speaker 29>something down for us now. I can feel my my

2461
02:28:32.799 --> 02:28:36.479
<v Speaker 29>my knees are shaking in anticipation of the great words.

2462
02:28:36.479 --> 02:28:46.319
<v Speaker 1>He will fail. Pastor Kevin, your seven day Adventist. Unmute?

2463
02:28:47.079 --> 02:29:08.360
<v Speaker 53>All right, he's knocking on mute my choice guy, Ma Troyce.

2464
02:29:08.799 --> 02:29:09.239
<v Speaker 1>What's up?

2465
02:29:12.159 --> 02:29:13.760
<v Speaker 22>Good evening, Jay, can you hear me?

2466
02:29:14.399 --> 02:29:14.920
<v Speaker 12>Hey?

2467
02:29:15.520 --> 02:29:17.760
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, yeah, good, good to speak to speak to you again.

2468
02:29:18.000 --> 02:29:21.879
<v Speaker 6>We've met in person before, but yeah, I just wanted

2469
02:29:21.879 --> 02:29:26.719
<v Speaker 6>to ask you, uh what, how how should Christians view

2470
02:29:27.479 --> 02:29:33.520
<v Speaker 6>uh political uh the political world from a theological perspective,

2471
02:29:34.159 --> 02:29:38.719
<v Speaker 6>because you know, something like Byzantine symphonia is not it's

2472
02:29:38.760 --> 02:29:40.360
<v Speaker 6>not really uh realistic.

2473
02:29:43.120 --> 02:29:45.079
<v Speaker 1>Uh well, I mean that's up to you what your

2474
02:29:45.120 --> 02:29:47.000
<v Speaker 1>gifts and calling are or whether you want to be

2475
02:29:47.040 --> 02:29:52.159
<v Speaker 1>involved in local politics. And you know, I think one

2476
02:29:52.200 --> 02:29:54.959
<v Speaker 1>of the elders or saints recently said, do you support

2477
02:29:55.120 --> 02:30:09.200
<v Speaker 1>the candidates that are the best possible for Christianity? Mo?

2478
02:30:09.440 --> 02:30:13.399
<v Speaker 48>And I'm just a Puerto Rican young man. I gotta

2479
02:30:13.479 --> 02:30:18.879
<v Speaker 48>question it. So like, so you're you're Christian. I just

2480
02:30:18.879 --> 02:30:24.200
<v Speaker 48>got a question like, so, like how like how should

2481
02:30:24.239 --> 02:30:28.639
<v Speaker 48>I feel if I'm like Lukewarm? Because I know Hebrews

2482
02:30:28.680 --> 02:30:31.600
<v Speaker 48>that talks about you know, you know the truth, you

2483
02:30:31.639 --> 02:30:34.680
<v Speaker 48>know what's up in the spirit, you know how everything's

2484
02:30:34.680 --> 02:30:37.760
<v Speaker 48>go down, like you know, spiritual warfare, you know this

2485
02:30:37.840 --> 02:30:42.360
<v Speaker 48>and that, and but you still choose to any way

2486
02:30:42.520 --> 02:30:46.159
<v Speaker 48>rebel and you know, I know the Bible talk about

2487
02:30:46.879 --> 02:30:50.399
<v Speaker 48>rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft or something like

2488
02:30:50.559 --> 02:30:53.920
<v Speaker 48>you around more or less of that, and so I

2489
02:30:54.000 --> 02:30:56.520
<v Speaker 48>just be I feel like I'm too guilty to.

2490
02:30:58.000 --> 02:30:58.559
<v Speaker 20>Turn back.

2491
02:30:58.680 --> 02:31:00.840
<v Speaker 48>It's like, dang, God, like you're looking at me and

2492
02:31:01.040 --> 02:31:03.360
<v Speaker 48>I'm just a pig play in the mud, and I'm

2493
02:31:03.479 --> 02:31:05.440
<v Speaker 48>just I know what I'm doing is wrong, but I'm

2494
02:31:05.479 --> 02:31:09.360
<v Speaker 48>still doing it. And I just feel like disc like disgusting,

2495
02:31:09.719 --> 02:31:12.360
<v Speaker 48>like filthy, like, well, what we.

2496
02:31:12.319 --> 02:31:15.120
<v Speaker 1>All feel that way? So I would say, look, you

2497
02:31:15.120 --> 02:31:16.840
<v Speaker 1>know we're all gonna feel that way. That's actually a

2498
02:31:16.879 --> 02:31:19.760
<v Speaker 1>good thing. So I would say, begin to look in

2499
02:31:19.840 --> 02:31:30.959
<v Speaker 1>the Orthodox Christianity. David, what's up? David? Da v'd with

2500
02:31:31.040 --> 02:31:36.200
<v Speaker 1>an E. I don't understand why all these people come

2501
02:31:36.239 --> 02:31:39.399
<v Speaker 1>on here and they don't unmute. What's what? Why are

2502
02:31:39.399 --> 02:31:53.120
<v Speaker 1>they doing it? What's the point? Kyoma? I'm you Chioma?

2503
02:31:53.239 --> 02:31:56.879
<v Speaker 1>Are you do you want a Hey?

2504
02:31:58.079 --> 02:32:00.000
<v Speaker 18>It's morning over here, so good morning?

2505
02:32:00.120 --> 02:32:05.840
<v Speaker 1>Mean, hey, what's on your mind?

2506
02:32:07.239 --> 02:32:10.440
<v Speaker 18>I'm not sure what the topic is. You guys are

2507
02:32:10.520 --> 02:32:15.920
<v Speaker 18>just saying random stuffs. Guys talking about war and what

2508
02:32:15.920 --> 02:32:17.479
<v Speaker 18>what what you're talking about?

2509
02:32:19.600 --> 02:32:23.239
<v Speaker 1>Uh, it's a debate topic. So anything that related to

2510
02:32:23.280 --> 02:32:28.399
<v Speaker 1>atheism Catholicism is long liberalism, all the things listed up there.

2511
02:32:28.600 --> 02:32:35.479
<v Speaker 18>Oh, well, question, can I ask the question?

2512
02:32:37.360 --> 02:32:38.120
<v Speaker 1>Uh? Huh?

2513
02:32:38.200 --> 02:32:40.399
<v Speaker 18>Are you are you a Christian.

2514
02:32:42.520 --> 02:32:43.280
<v Speaker 1>Orthodox? Yes?

2515
02:32:44.440 --> 02:32:46.840
<v Speaker 24>Wow, that's.

2516
02:32:48.000 --> 02:32:49.600
<v Speaker 18>I kind of thought you an atheist?

2517
02:32:52.040 --> 02:32:55.280
<v Speaker 1>Okay, well, uh, maybe I need to do better than

2518
02:32:55.559 --> 02:32:56.719
<v Speaker 1>x DMA. What's up?

2519
02:33:02.760 --> 02:33:09.360
<v Speaker 34>Can you hear me? I have an opinion. I think

2520
02:33:10.159 --> 02:33:14.680
<v Speaker 34>all the religions it's kind of bullshit. It's made to

2521
02:33:14.799 --> 02:33:20.200
<v Speaker 34>make people like, it's made for controlling people, and like,

2522
02:33:22.040 --> 02:33:24.200
<v Speaker 34>I think it's bad. You know, it's like a cult,

2523
02:33:25.440 --> 02:33:30.440
<v Speaker 34>all the religions, And I think people should be good people.

2524
02:33:30.520 --> 02:33:33.239
<v Speaker 34>And it's not a religion that makes you good, it's you.

2525
02:33:33.840 --> 02:33:35.360
<v Speaker 1>Okay, how do we know? How do we know what

2526
02:33:35.399 --> 02:33:35.959
<v Speaker 1>the good is?

2527
02:33:36.600 --> 02:33:42.600
<v Speaker 34>Well, don't hurt others, like every.

2528
02:33:42.280 --> 02:33:45.959
<v Speaker 1>Why is that the good? Why is that the good?

2529
02:33:46.000 --> 02:33:46.559
<v Speaker 1>How do we know that?

2530
02:33:46.719 --> 02:33:49.719
<v Speaker 34>Because you don't want it to happen to you? Do

2531
02:33:49.760 --> 02:33:50.600
<v Speaker 34>you want to get hurt?

2532
02:33:50.799 --> 02:33:52.959
<v Speaker 1>Well, but that doesn't that doesn't mean that it's the

2533
02:33:53.120 --> 02:33:55.079
<v Speaker 1>good because I don't want that. There's a lot of

2534
02:33:55.120 --> 02:33:56.760
<v Speaker 1>things that I don't want, But that doesn't make it

2535
02:33:56.799 --> 02:33:58.559
<v Speaker 1>the case. So how do we know that that is

2536
02:33:58.600 --> 02:33:59.040
<v Speaker 1>the case?

2537
02:34:01.959 --> 02:34:04.799
<v Speaker 34>How does that make sense that? Like obviously it's not good.

2538
02:34:07.040 --> 02:34:09.639
<v Speaker 1>Well, just saying that it's obvious doesn't show me that

2539
02:34:09.639 --> 02:34:12.079
<v Speaker 1>that's the case. That's just sort of restating what you said.

2540
02:34:12.399 --> 02:34:13.520
<v Speaker 1>But I want to know how you know.

2541
02:34:13.520 --> 02:34:18.360
<v Speaker 34>That, Like how I know getting hurt is bad? Like

2542
02:34:19.239 --> 02:34:21.920
<v Speaker 34>what do you mean? Of course it's bad, like nobody

2543
02:34:21.920 --> 02:34:22.280
<v Speaker 34>wants to do.

2544
02:34:22.639 --> 02:34:25.280
<v Speaker 1>Now, you said to be good to people, which that

2545
02:34:25.319 --> 02:34:27.319
<v Speaker 1>doesn't even tell us how we are good to people

2546
02:34:27.399 --> 02:34:29.559
<v Speaker 1>or what the content of that is. And I'm asking

2547
02:34:29.600 --> 02:34:30.479
<v Speaker 1>you what is the good?

2548
02:34:31.120 --> 02:34:33.479
<v Speaker 34>Well, help people in need?

2549
02:34:35.120 --> 02:34:37.920
<v Speaker 1>Okay, how do you know that that's what the good is?

2550
02:34:37.920 --> 02:34:38.760
<v Speaker 1>Is it universal?

2551
02:34:38.959 --> 02:34:39.319
<v Speaker 12>Yeah?

2552
02:34:39.520 --> 02:34:42.440
<v Speaker 34>Everybody needs help from everybody. We're social beings.

2553
02:34:42.200 --> 02:34:46.680
<v Speaker 1>Right, Okay, but you're a limited, finite being. How do

2554
02:34:46.719 --> 02:34:48.479
<v Speaker 1>you know something that's universally the case?

2555
02:34:48.959 --> 02:34:50.200
<v Speaker 34>Because that's in our nature?

2556
02:34:52.399 --> 02:34:54.840
<v Speaker 1>How do you know that? I mean, you're just asserting.

2557
02:34:54.399 --> 02:34:58.120
<v Speaker 34>All these like scientifically proven like people there's.

2558
02:34:58.239 --> 02:35:01.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you think it's scientifically pre even that the good

2559
02:35:01.159 --> 02:35:03.120
<v Speaker 1>is in our nature? That doesn't make sense.

2560
02:35:03.719 --> 02:35:06.920
<v Speaker 34>No, but it's in our nature to be social beings.

2561
02:35:07.360 --> 02:35:11.840
<v Speaker 1>And okay, but a lot of social beings are quote bad,

2562
02:35:12.040 --> 02:35:12.959
<v Speaker 1>So how does that tell me.

2563
02:35:12.920 --> 02:35:13.559
<v Speaker 12>What the good is?

2564
02:35:14.840 --> 02:35:15.879
<v Speaker 34>What social beings are?

2565
02:35:15.879 --> 02:35:23.079
<v Speaker 1>Bad? People? Engaged in warfare, rape, murder, theft.

2566
02:35:23.200 --> 02:35:29.479
<v Speaker 34>So that's pretty that's obviously bad. Why Well, because it's

2567
02:35:30.120 --> 02:35:33.399
<v Speaker 34>like all the things that happened to other people, Like

2568
02:35:33.559 --> 02:35:36.040
<v Speaker 34>those things that happened to other people, the other people

2569
02:35:36.399 --> 02:35:39.920
<v Speaker 34>had negative feelings or anerthings.

2570
02:35:39.959 --> 02:35:42.520
<v Speaker 1>So that's begging the question, why is it. Maybe I

2571
02:35:42.920 --> 02:35:44.799
<v Speaker 1>get a lot of pleasure out of hurting people, So

2572
02:35:44.840 --> 02:35:46.079
<v Speaker 1>why is it wrong to do that?

2573
02:35:46.159 --> 02:35:53.639
<v Speaker 34>It's wrong for the other person? Why because it's hurting them.

2574
02:35:54.000 --> 02:35:56.479
<v Speaker 1>That's a circle. So now you're back to the first claim.

2575
02:35:56.639 --> 02:35:58.680
<v Speaker 1>So circular arguments are good.

2576
02:35:59.280 --> 02:36:02.360
<v Speaker 34>No, it's just makes sense like why would why would you?

2577
02:36:02.360 --> 02:36:02.559
<v Speaker 12>Even?

2578
02:36:03.000 --> 02:36:07.920
<v Speaker 1>So that's another saying. Okay, so so you understanding of

2579
02:36:07.920 --> 02:36:09.920
<v Speaker 1>the debate. If you come to debate and you can

2580
02:36:10.000 --> 02:36:12.360
<v Speaker 1>just assert things and they can be circles, I can

2581
02:36:12.399 --> 02:36:16.239
<v Speaker 1>do that too, So god just is yeah, I mean,

2582
02:36:18.079 --> 02:36:20.760
<v Speaker 1>so that's why, that's why what you're arguing is not

2583
02:36:20.799 --> 02:36:43.000
<v Speaker 1>a good argument. Slow, Slow, I'm still sick of saying

2584
02:36:43.000 --> 02:36:45.639
<v Speaker 1>on you a J.

2585
02:36:48.520 --> 02:36:49.159
<v Speaker 12>A J on M.

2586
02:36:52.200 --> 02:37:05.360
<v Speaker 1>You can't connect Dick again, Dick, you got on here?

2587
02:37:13.600 --> 02:37:13.760
<v Speaker 12>Dick?

2588
02:37:13.799 --> 02:37:14.920
<v Speaker 1>Do you want to talk to get it on? You

2589
02:37:21.680 --> 02:37:22.920
<v Speaker 1>can y'all not hear me or something?

2590
02:37:25.639 --> 02:37:27.680
<v Speaker 29>I I can hear you? I don't know if you

2591
02:37:27.680 --> 02:37:28.159
<v Speaker 29>can hear me.

2592
02:37:30.479 --> 02:37:31.200
<v Speaker 12>I can hear you?

2593
02:37:32.639 --> 02:37:34.440
<v Speaker 29>Oh yeah, your dreams.

2594
02:37:36.799 --> 02:37:38.040
<v Speaker 12>I didn't request to speak.

2595
02:37:38.079 --> 02:37:39.280
<v Speaker 1>That was just a fate speaker.

2596
02:37:42.000 --> 02:37:48.280
<v Speaker 34>So here's the second thing that I wanted to say. So, yeah,

2597
02:37:49.120 --> 02:37:51.040
<v Speaker 34>so I don't know. I'm not good at the base.

2598
02:37:51.159 --> 02:37:52.120
<v Speaker 29>Can I ask you a question?

2599
02:37:52.239 --> 02:37:52.680
<v Speaker 34>Real quick?

2600
02:37:52.879 --> 02:37:54.200
<v Speaker 12>No? Wait?

2601
02:37:56.200 --> 02:37:56.600
<v Speaker 1>Manswer?

2602
02:37:56.639 --> 02:37:57.719
<v Speaker 29>Can I ask you a question?

2603
02:37:58.079 --> 02:37:58.239
<v Speaker 6>Uh?

2604
02:37:58.319 --> 02:38:02.239
<v Speaker 1>Never mind, I'm bringing it back. I'm bringing it back.

2605
02:38:04.360 --> 02:38:05.280
<v Speaker 29>Can I ask you a question?

2606
02:38:05.479 --> 02:38:06.159
<v Speaker 11>Xde answered?

2607
02:38:07.319 --> 02:38:08.879
<v Speaker 34>Can I can I like talk?

2608
02:38:09.120 --> 02:38:09.399
<v Speaker 2>I don't.

2609
02:38:09.520 --> 02:38:13.559
<v Speaker 34>I don't get what I'm like getting to be a

2610
02:38:13.600 --> 02:38:15.159
<v Speaker 34>listener speaker.

2611
02:38:16.200 --> 02:38:16.479
<v Speaker 12>Okay.

2612
02:38:16.799 --> 02:38:19.760
<v Speaker 34>What I wanted to ask is what do you believe

2613
02:38:20.000 --> 02:38:23.559
<v Speaker 34>religion is? Like God or whatever? That's real?

2614
02:38:24.920 --> 02:38:27.399
<v Speaker 1>Because it just is. So I'm gonna use the same

2615
02:38:27.520 --> 02:38:30.319
<v Speaker 1>arguments you did, okay, I mean.

2616
02:38:31.040 --> 02:38:34.719
<v Speaker 34>Sure, what okay?

2617
02:38:34.840 --> 02:38:37.920
<v Speaker 29>Because without without God, you're not going to be able

2618
02:38:37.959 --> 02:38:40.120
<v Speaker 29>to justify your ability to make a sentence and a

2619
02:38:40.159 --> 02:38:41.959
<v Speaker 29>truth claim like you're trying to do right now.

2620
02:38:43.360 --> 02:38:45.319
<v Speaker 34>But do you believe that's not nature?

2621
02:38:45.520 --> 02:38:48.559
<v Speaker 29>What is nature? There's there's a what's a what is

2622
02:38:48.600 --> 02:38:50.319
<v Speaker 29>this human nature you appealed to before?

2623
02:38:50.399 --> 02:38:50.680
<v Speaker 12>Is it?

2624
02:38:50.920 --> 02:38:51.040
<v Speaker 45>No?

2625
02:38:51.040 --> 02:38:51.200
<v Speaker 34>No?

2626
02:38:51.200 --> 02:38:51.319
<v Speaker 4>No?

2627
02:38:51.360 --> 02:38:55.280
<v Speaker 34>I mean nature in general, like the laws of physics,

2628
02:38:55.600 --> 02:38:58.920
<v Speaker 34>trees grow, weat food, the circle.

2629
02:38:58.920 --> 02:39:02.600
<v Speaker 29>All those imags things, those immaterial not physical laws.

2630
02:39:03.840 --> 02:39:06.680
<v Speaker 1>No, no, you're you're wrong, You're wrong, Chase. The circle

2631
02:39:06.719 --> 02:39:08.719
<v Speaker 1>of life is mentioned in the Lion King.

2632
02:39:09.639 --> 02:39:12.360
<v Speaker 29>If you said, oh, this is the logical principle of

2633
02:39:12.440 --> 02:39:13.639
<v Speaker 29>a savena right?

2634
02:39:15.799 --> 02:39:19.040
<v Speaker 34>So wait's okay, so you everything that you're saying, like

2635
02:39:19.360 --> 02:39:23.799
<v Speaker 34>the lan King, it's all books written by other people. Everything,

2636
02:39:24.559 --> 02:39:27.399
<v Speaker 34>all the religion things, all the books are written by

2637
02:39:27.520 --> 02:39:30.760
<v Speaker 34>other people, not by God. So how do how, how

2638
02:39:30.879 --> 02:39:33.559
<v Speaker 34>do how does anybody know what God is if they've

2639
02:39:33.600 --> 02:39:34.159
<v Speaker 34>never seen it?

2640
02:39:35.319 --> 02:39:37.200
<v Speaker 1>You mean, like all the science papers.

2641
02:39:36.920 --> 02:39:39.280
<v Speaker 29>That are I mean, your whole are your whole assertion?

2642
02:39:39.479 --> 02:39:41.360
<v Speaker 29>I heard it from you, and you're just another person.

2643
02:39:43.159 --> 02:39:45.159
<v Speaker 29>Yeah yeah, so why should.

2644
02:39:44.920 --> 02:39:45.399
<v Speaker 1>I listen to you?

2645
02:39:48.479 --> 02:39:49.559
<v Speaker 29>You're just another person?

2646
02:39:49.680 --> 02:39:49.760
<v Speaker 14>Bro?

2647
02:39:51.920 --> 02:39:52.520
<v Speaker 34>What do you mean?

2648
02:39:53.120 --> 02:39:56.399
<v Speaker 29>Well, okay, you're saying, so here's you keep presenting these

2649
02:39:56.479 --> 02:40:00.600
<v Speaker 29>principles like oh, the laws of physics and stuff like this,

2650
02:40:00.760 --> 02:40:04.000
<v Speaker 29>and nature and something called nature which is a universal

2651
02:40:04.040 --> 02:40:06.399
<v Speaker 29>which is a big claim. And then you're appealing to

2652
02:40:07.479 --> 02:40:10.280
<v Speaker 29>or sorry, trying to critique that the Bible and everything

2653
02:40:10.440 --> 02:40:14.040
<v Speaker 29>was transmitted through other people. But you're another person trying

2654
02:40:14.120 --> 02:40:18.040
<v Speaker 29>to proposit a truth claim. You don't see that that's contradictory.

2655
02:40:20.000 --> 02:40:20.440
<v Speaker 3>He does not.

2656
02:40:20.559 --> 02:40:21.520
<v Speaker 12>Okay, that's pretty based.

2657
02:40:24.479 --> 02:40:28.879
<v Speaker 41>Yes, I have questions for mister Chase Haggard. Your brother

2658
02:40:29.000 --> 02:40:30.639
<v Speaker 41>Tristan is Antichrist?

2659
02:40:31.719 --> 02:40:32.360
<v Speaker 14>No he's not.

2660
02:40:32.600 --> 02:40:36.120
<v Speaker 29>That's a vicious rumor. That's a vicious rumor started by Beyonce.

2661
02:40:38.520 --> 02:40:38.680
<v Speaker 12>Man.

2662
02:40:38.719 --> 02:40:39.959
<v Speaker 41>It was I want to say, this has been a

2663
02:40:40.079 --> 02:40:42.040
<v Speaker 41>very very good night, Jay. I have never heard you

2664
02:40:42.120 --> 02:40:49.959
<v Speaker 41>this polite before. Oh really, Yeah, I just want to

2665
02:40:50.000 --> 02:40:52.440
<v Speaker 41>get some feedback. I just it was so hilarious. No,

2666
02:40:52.559 --> 02:40:55.639
<v Speaker 41>the woman, the Mormon woman who said that there's more

2667
02:40:56.559 --> 02:40:57.879
<v Speaker 41>Mormons than their Muslims.

2668
02:40:59.360 --> 02:41:02.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, ridiculous. That so funny. I can't wait to clip

2669
02:41:02.200 --> 02:41:02.840
<v Speaker 1>what she was saying.

2670
02:41:02.959 --> 02:41:04.760
<v Speaker 41>Where do you find these psychotic people who come in

2671
02:41:04.840 --> 02:41:09.479
<v Speaker 41>with such like extreme confidence and just spelled the most insane.

2672
02:41:09.520 --> 02:41:11.360
<v Speaker 1>That they're all? They all comment on Twitter.

2673
02:41:12.399 --> 02:41:15.239
<v Speaker 29>I actually I'm a I'm a federal agent that gets

2674
02:41:15.239 --> 02:41:17.159
<v Speaker 29>a lot of us AID funding and so I just

2675
02:41:17.239 --> 02:41:18.040
<v Speaker 29>pay them to come in.

2676
02:41:19.559 --> 02:41:19.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

2677
02:41:20.200 --> 02:41:23.079
<v Speaker 41>Well, well, and you know me, I'm always coming in

2678
02:41:23.239 --> 02:41:27.559
<v Speaker 41>talking about Islam, And I just wanted to first ask

2679
02:41:27.639 --> 02:41:30.559
<v Speaker 41>a question, you know how, like I don't know if

2680
02:41:30.600 --> 02:41:34.280
<v Speaker 41>you know this but like Sonny, Islam holds to both

2681
02:41:35.200 --> 02:41:39.559
<v Speaker 41>predestination and free will, and that has to be a contradiction, right.

2682
02:41:41.559 --> 02:41:43.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, especially if you're an occasionalist.

2683
02:41:43.280 --> 02:41:43.479
<v Speaker 32>Yeah.

2684
02:41:44.319 --> 02:41:46.760
<v Speaker 41>Yeah, it's like it's like, you know, you, as a

2685
02:41:46.920 --> 02:41:49.360
<v Speaker 41>philosopher and a logician, that is a hard contradiction, right,

2686
02:41:49.399 --> 02:41:52.600
<v Speaker 41>There is no way you can reconcile that, right.

2687
02:41:55.479 --> 02:41:55.680
<v Speaker 12>Yeah.

2688
02:41:55.719 --> 02:41:57.760
<v Speaker 1>I think again, the main problem would be that as

2689
02:41:57.799 --> 02:42:01.959
<v Speaker 1>most of the sunies are occasional was then if God

2690
02:42:02.079 --> 02:42:04.159
<v Speaker 1>is the direct cause of every single event at every

2691
02:42:04.200 --> 02:42:08.159
<v Speaker 1>single second, and he's you know, starting the world over

2692
02:42:08.239 --> 02:42:11.079
<v Speaker 1>at every second, then when you say that you have

2693
02:42:11.239 --> 02:42:14.520
<v Speaker 1>free will, that really means absolutely nothing if occasionalism is true,

2694
02:42:14.520 --> 02:42:18.239
<v Speaker 1>because occasionalism has to mean excuse, mean, free will has

2695
02:42:18.319 --> 02:42:20.840
<v Speaker 1>to mean that you have causal agency, that you can

2696
02:42:20.879 --> 02:42:23.959
<v Speaker 1>be a secondary cause. But the whole point of occasionalism

2697
02:42:24.040 --> 02:42:26.840
<v Speaker 1>is to not have secondary causes, and so free will

2698
02:42:26.879 --> 02:42:29.719
<v Speaker 1>would just really mean nothing. Yeah.

2699
02:42:30.319 --> 02:42:31.120
<v Speaker 34>Absolutely, And.

2700
02:42:32.719 --> 02:42:35.600
<v Speaker 1>Also I mean if Allah is the greatest of deceivers too.

2701
02:42:37.000 --> 02:42:38.719
<v Speaker 1>But there was a really good philosophy paper that was

2702
02:42:38.719 --> 02:42:42.079
<v Speaker 1>written a while back, and the paper was arguing that

2703
02:42:43.200 --> 02:42:47.520
<v Speaker 1>if you admit this, then you couldn't actually know that

2704
02:42:47.719 --> 02:42:50.079
<v Speaker 1>Allah isn't deceiving you into believing.

2705
02:42:49.760 --> 02:42:52.360
<v Speaker 41>As Yeah, so it's kind of like the Calvinist evanescent grace,

2706
02:42:52.440 --> 02:42:56.479
<v Speaker 41>so the college, right, yeah, because like what the whole

2707
02:42:56.479 --> 02:42:59.120
<v Speaker 41>thing was, like the Muslim predestination.

2708
02:43:00.040 --> 02:43:00.280
<v Speaker 36>The nation.

2709
02:43:00.319 --> 02:43:02.920
<v Speaker 41>There's talk about like predestination in Calvinism and in Christianity,

2710
02:43:02.959 --> 02:43:05.200
<v Speaker 41>but it really means something else than in Islam, because

2711
02:43:05.239 --> 02:43:08.040
<v Speaker 41>like in Islam, it's like a total fatalism, referring to

2712
02:43:08.559 --> 02:43:14.719
<v Speaker 41>every single action and decision you make. Exactly what I think,

2713
02:43:14.799 --> 02:43:17.799
<v Speaker 41>like Christian predestination is just like the whole thing with

2714
02:43:17.959 --> 02:43:21.159
<v Speaker 41>like faith and salvation and refers to just to the

2715
02:43:21.280 --> 02:43:23.360
<v Speaker 41>like Selvathic moment, right.

2716
02:43:24.799 --> 02:43:29.639
<v Speaker 1>And and the and divine foreknowledge. Yes, did you want

2717
02:43:29.680 --> 02:43:37.760
<v Speaker 1>to come back make line?

2718
02:43:39.159 --> 02:43:41.000
<v Speaker 42>My first question is in the comment someone was saying

2719
02:43:41.040 --> 02:43:41.840
<v Speaker 42>that you're in the bathtub.

2720
02:43:41.959 --> 02:43:42.360
<v Speaker 11>Is that true?

2721
02:43:44.040 --> 02:43:46.879
<v Speaker 1>It is correct? You hear that. That's really funny.

2722
02:43:48.319 --> 02:43:50.280
<v Speaker 42>My other question was do you do you think is

2723
02:43:50.319 --> 02:43:55.479
<v Speaker 42>it your view that God intervenes and and manipulates matter

2724
02:43:55.559 --> 02:43:57.799
<v Speaker 42>every now and then when he or she you know,

2725
02:43:57.920 --> 02:44:00.559
<v Speaker 42>causes a miracle to happen, or does God leave things

2726
02:44:01.280 --> 02:44:02.920
<v Speaker 42>to occur according to the laws of physics?

2727
02:44:05.799 --> 02:44:08.040
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I would say that the laws of physics

2728
02:44:08.239 --> 02:44:13.719
<v Speaker 1>and you know, the celestial planets and spheres or whatever like,

2729
02:44:13.760 --> 02:44:16.280
<v Speaker 1>all of that is the logical structure that God has

2730
02:44:16.319 --> 02:44:19.120
<v Speaker 1>put into place in the cosmos. But that God is

2731
02:44:19.239 --> 02:44:22.239
<v Speaker 1>not a deistic deity as if he's removed. He's we

2732
02:44:22.360 --> 02:44:25.200
<v Speaker 1>believe in the divine imminence as well as divine transcendence,

2733
02:44:25.799 --> 02:44:28.399
<v Speaker 1>so he is present in the world, and also that

2734
02:44:28.479 --> 02:44:31.239
<v Speaker 1>he transcends the world. And we would not say God

2735
02:44:31.360 --> 02:44:35.079
<v Speaker 1>is a she. God is who's revealed in the Orthodox

2736
02:44:35.239 --> 02:44:37.079
<v Speaker 1>Christian Church as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

2737
02:44:37.399 --> 02:44:40.239
<v Speaker 42>Okay, so are there is there such a thing as

2738
02:44:40.319 --> 02:44:43.360
<v Speaker 42>a miracle in your view? Or is it more like, well,

2739
02:44:43.399 --> 02:44:46.559
<v Speaker 42>if you could learn enough, you would discover the natural explanation.

2740
02:44:46.719 --> 02:44:48.200
<v Speaker 42>But that explanation itself.

2741
02:44:48.000 --> 02:44:50.959
<v Speaker 1>Was I think Jesus. Jesus turned water to paine, and

2742
02:44:51.040 --> 02:44:55.159
<v Speaker 1>that was a different way of doing the normal logical

2743
02:44:55.520 --> 02:44:59.280
<v Speaker 1>structures that he had put into place in the natural world. He,

2744
02:44:59.440 --> 02:45:03.799
<v Speaker 1>in that instance, Than's demonstrating his superiority over the laws

2745
02:45:03.840 --> 02:45:05.040
<v Speaker 1>of nature, did a murder.

2746
02:45:05.079 --> 02:45:09.000
<v Speaker 42>And when God, if God does something like converts water

2747
02:45:09.079 --> 02:45:12.159
<v Speaker 42>into wine or something like that, does the energy required

2748
02:45:12.239 --> 02:45:14.399
<v Speaker 42>or the change of momentum required to do that is

2749
02:45:14.440 --> 02:45:16.879
<v Speaker 42>that subtracted from God? Or is God like an infinite

2750
02:45:16.920 --> 02:45:19.200
<v Speaker 42>reservoir of energy and momentum and mass and so on.

2751
02:45:22.040 --> 02:45:24.760
<v Speaker 1>God does not have mass because God is uncreated. In

2752
02:45:24.840 --> 02:45:28.120
<v Speaker 1>mass would apply to anything that is created or in

2753
02:45:28.239 --> 02:45:31.600
<v Speaker 1>time and space or spatially extended. And since God is

2754
02:45:31.680 --> 02:45:38.639
<v Speaker 1>an immaterial, non spatial, perfect spiritual being, he doesn't have

2755
02:45:38.760 --> 02:45:41.719
<v Speaker 1>bodily extension or space from all eternity.

2756
02:45:43.440 --> 02:45:46.200
<v Speaker 42>So is there is it a suspension of the laws

2757
02:45:46.239 --> 02:45:48.639
<v Speaker 42>of chemistry and physics when when someone of that happens,

2758
02:45:48.719 --> 02:45:48.959
<v Speaker 42>or is.

2759
02:45:49.000 --> 02:45:54.799
<v Speaker 1>It just a it's God doing something different than the

2760
02:45:54.840 --> 02:45:57.600
<v Speaker 1>way that he allowed the normal laws to go. So

2761
02:45:57.680 --> 02:45:59.680
<v Speaker 1>in other words, we would say God is the basis

2762
02:45:59.760 --> 02:46:04.200
<v Speaker 1>for or the patterns of providence in nature already, and

2763
02:46:04.280 --> 02:46:06.040
<v Speaker 1>so that's just him doing it a different way.

2764
02:46:06.360 --> 02:46:08.879
<v Speaker 42>So if there's if the laws of physics are like traffic,

2765
02:46:09.319 --> 02:46:11.079
<v Speaker 42>God is like a traffic cop that can just kind

2766
02:46:11.120 --> 02:46:13.159
<v Speaker 42>of stop it when he wants and then let it continue.

2767
02:46:14.559 --> 02:46:19.959
<v Speaker 1>The conversation from before is the same misunderstanding the conversation. Now,

2768
02:46:20.719 --> 02:46:25.319
<v Speaker 1>the laws of physics are themselves divine laws grounded in

2769
02:46:25.399 --> 02:46:29.600
<v Speaker 1>the divine mind, which make nature and regularity in nature

2770
02:46:29.719 --> 02:46:33.639
<v Speaker 1>possible and so when God does a miracle, technically speaking,

2771
02:46:33.680 --> 02:46:35.440
<v Speaker 1>you could say it's him doing something in a different

2772
02:46:35.479 --> 02:46:36.360
<v Speaker 1>way than he did before.

2773
02:46:36.440 --> 02:46:37.360
<v Speaker 42>Okay, got it, Thank you.

2774
02:46:44.280 --> 02:46:48.360
<v Speaker 1>Anybody else, I don't see any other comments, discussions, topics, questions, issues.

2775
02:46:48.600 --> 02:46:52.600
<v Speaker 1>Looks like we're winding down a lot of long's a

2776
02:46:52.600 --> 02:46:54.479
<v Speaker 1>lot of fun discussions today. It's a lot of fun.

2777
02:46:55.360 --> 02:46:55.680
<v Speaker 14>If you.

2778
02:46:58.360 --> 02:47:00.840
<v Speaker 1>Want to check out the earlier chat, it was it

2779
02:47:00.920 --> 02:47:05.159
<v Speaker 1>was pretty wild. Otherwise, everybody, have a good night, and

2780
02:47:05.600 --> 02:47:08.360
<v Speaker 1>thank you for tuning in and for having fun. Check

2781
02:47:08.440 --> 02:47:10.920
<v Speaker 1>out chalk dot com. Use it from a code J

2782
02:47:11.120 --> 02:47:13.120
<v Speaker 1>forty to get forty percent off j Y forare zero

2783
02:47:13.159 --> 02:47:15.079
<v Speaker 1>at c h o Q chalk dot com.