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<v Speaker 1>This episode was not take before a live audience, but

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to fake it well, whiskey, come and take

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<v Speaker 1>my pain, honey all right? Why think alone when you

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<v Speaker 1>can drink it all in with Ricochet's Three Whiskey Happy Hour,

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<v Speaker 1>join your bartenders Steve Hayward, John You, and the International

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<v Speaker 1>Woman of Mystery, Lucretia, where the lapped it up. It'll live.

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<v Speaker 1>It ain't easy on the show taps, gotta give me

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<v Speaker 1>and let that whiskey clone. It's the Three Whiskey Happy Hour,

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<v Speaker 1>the podcast where both our whiskey and our opinions are

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<v Speaker 1>served neat and always at least any proof, if not

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<v Speaker 1>much higher. And this week we had the band back

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<v Speaker 1>together again with John in Philadelphia. Hi John, how are you?

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<v Speaker 2>Hey?

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<v Speaker 1>God?

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<v Speaker 3>John?

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<v Speaker 2>Hey guys, and you know, did you get your stuff

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<v Speaker 2>from the University of Tulsa.

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<v Speaker 1>It arrived a humongous bat. I've got my Tulsa glass

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<v Speaker 1>right now, and I made.

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<v Speaker 4>The mistake of taking my Tulsa glass to work to

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<v Speaker 4>show it off, and now I don't have a glass

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<v Speaker 4>to drink my whiskey out of.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm unboxing a brand new bottle of lafreug for tonight

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<v Speaker 1>and needless to say, Lucretia is here from her undisclosed,

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<v Speaker 1>heavily fortified bunker in the desert southwest. At least you

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<v Speaker 1>can tell us what you're drinking, Lucretia. I can.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm drinking the Frank August that was the lovely gift

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<v Speaker 4>from our friends in Tulsa, because it's the only whiskey

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<v Speaker 4>bottle that's not packed away. I will be unpacking my

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<v Speaker 4>kitchen and the whiskey bottles and the rest of the

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<v Speaker 4>bar this weekend because the kitchen is done, but not

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<v Speaker 4>the library. So but in the meantime, I don't have

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<v Speaker 4>any whiskey other than the one I just got in

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<v Speaker 4>the mail, so, and I don't have a glass. I'm

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<v Speaker 4>having to drink it in this but I think it

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<v Speaker 4>tastes the same. We'll see. Ahh okay, and all right, Pellegrino.

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<v Speaker 1>So John, I thought rather than do the usual McDonald's

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<v Speaker 1>and burger stuff. Although actually I'm sorry, John, you did

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<v Speaker 1>send us a note today saying you tried someplace new

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<v Speaker 1>in Texas that you think, yeah, a worthy burger place.

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<v Speaker 1>So briefly, oh yeah, Pete Terry's. Has anyone been to

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<v Speaker 1>Pete Terry's it's the Austin based chain. You go on

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<v Speaker 1>and it kind of looks like it looks like In

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<v Speaker 1>and Out. It's from the nineteen fifties. But I thought

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<v Speaker 1>it was a lot better than it.

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<v Speaker 2>In and Out don't kill me, but you have angus

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<v Speaker 2>beef and the and the Actually, the French fries are

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<v Speaker 2>skinny McDonald's type fries with the skin on the very ends,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's way better. The In and Out fries are disappointing.

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<v Speaker 2>They're like they are batter fries, and so it was great.

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<v Speaker 2>Plus I didn't get it. But they also have a

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<v Speaker 2>chicken burger, which I have to get. That's the concession

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<v Speaker 2>for people need to eat healthy, and they milkshakes with

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<v Speaker 2>like fudge in them.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it gives In and Out a run for

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<v Speaker 2>its money. Plus I have to say Austin has several

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<v Speaker 2>In and Outs and there are never any lines in them, well,

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<v Speaker 2>no lines that they dry. I threw no lines inside

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<v Speaker 2>the store. Texans are rejecting the California meat virus.

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<v Speaker 1>So you know what they call people who eat chicken

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<v Speaker 1>burgers in Texas? We call them vegans? Head right? All right? John?

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<v Speaker 1>I did think in lieu of extensive burger treatment, because

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<v Speaker 1>you do that every week. I thought it'd be interesting

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<v Speaker 1>to hear from you an account of the debate you

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<v Speaker 1>had today. I thought you were going to be outnumbered

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<v Speaker 1>on Fox, but no, instead you were out numbered at

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<v Speaker 1>where the National Constitution Center.

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<v Speaker 2>No, this was even better. I did a debate today

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<v Speaker 2>at the American Philosophical Society, oh right, which was established

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<v Speaker 2>by Benjamin Franklin, I think in the seventeen fifties, maybe

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<v Speaker 2>even earlier, and it's filled with basically scientists and other scholars,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of famous people know Bell Laureates, things like that.

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<v Speaker 2>And I did a debate with a professor, a political scientist,

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<v Speaker 2>one of you guys named Roger Smith, who used to

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<v Speaker 2>be at Yale and is now at Penn, who I

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<v Speaker 2>consider a moderate, and we did a debate. We held

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<v Speaker 2>a debate on will democratic will constitutional democracy survive in

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<v Speaker 2>the United States, And it was I was almost as

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<v Speaker 2>if I think I was sent as an ambassador from

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<v Speaker 2>conservatism to explain the strange cultures and ways of my

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<v Speaker 2>land to think people who basically think experts should run everything.

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<v Speaker 2>And there was shock, outrage, even defying and skepticism from

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<v Speaker 2>the crowd. When I said that the progressive era of

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<v Speaker 2>expert government insulated from politics was coming to an end,

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<v Speaker 2>whereupon one of the people on the panel said, experts

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<v Speaker 2>should run all policy. If experts don't do it, who will.

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<v Speaker 2>We can't have politics running policy. It was just right

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<v Speaker 2>out of the Woodrow Wilson playbook. It was so charming.

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<v Speaker 2>And I said, do you think after the political disorders

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<v Speaker 2>were living through that the answer will be give even

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<v Speaker 2>more power to independent experts and give them more authority

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<v Speaker 2>over our lives. No, it'll be the opposite somehow, But

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<v Speaker 2>we haven't figured out what that world's going to look

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<v Speaker 2>like yet.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So Roger Smith, I mean, I know he's a

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<v Speaker 1>big name. I've never paid much attention to him. I

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<v Speaker 1>guess maybe because he is in some ways a moderate

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<v Speaker 1>in the academy. So he never either offended me or

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<v Speaker 1>I thought was very interesting. He was president of the

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<v Speaker 1>APSA about ten years ago, and they usually pick moderates

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<v Speaker 1>or sort of people of big name brands. On the

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<v Speaker 1>other hand, John, at least at one point in life

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<v Speaker 1>he was to the right of you. Because I discovered

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<v Speaker 1>that he wrote a book co authored with our friend

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<v Speaker 1>Peter Schuck called Here's the title Citizenship without Consent illegal

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<v Speaker 1>Aliens and the American Polity nineteen eighty five. So but still,

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<v Speaker 1>you couldn't use illegal aliens in the book title today

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<v Speaker 1>and not be sent to the campus gulag. But the

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<v Speaker 1>other thing I thought was it he argues that, well,

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<v Speaker 1>he doesn't come down on the legal argument about whether

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<v Speaker 1>the fourteenth Amendment should guarantee birthright citizenship, but he says

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<v Speaker 1>Congress should step in and say, no, we should restrict

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<v Speaker 1>who gets citizenship just because you're born to illegal immigrants

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<v Speaker 1>who are residing here.

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<v Speaker 2>Ed.

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<v Speaker 4>Why does he get credit for that? I've been telling

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<v Speaker 4>John that since we started this debate.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, no, the whole point was is that idea you

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<v Speaker 2>know here he said it in nineteen eighty five, but

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<v Speaker 2>no one noted.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I wonder if he's did this come up at

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<v Speaker 1>all today? John? Probably not.

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<v Speaker 2>No, it did not. I'm sure he was glad for that.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I could have mentioned it, right, But his

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<v Speaker 2>argument was that he was disturbed by the rise of

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<v Speaker 2>the MAGA right and he somehow thought the solution would

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<v Speaker 2>be defined common ground in enforcing the equality provisions of

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<v Speaker 2>the Reconstruction Amendments. And I just thought that was, and

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<v Speaker 2>I said, why do you think the troubles we're living

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<v Speaker 2>through our failure to have common ground? To me, the

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<v Speaker 2>Constitution just establishes the boundaries for a political conflict, doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>expect us to have common ground. I think common ground

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<v Speaker 2>is usually what people say when they're losing that they

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<v Speaker 2>would like to have common ground, but the people who

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<v Speaker 2>are winning is a way to slow down. But either that.

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<v Speaker 4>Or it's defined, especially by the left, as common ground

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<v Speaker 4>is whenever you agree with me, then we have common ground.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, of course, Yeah that's right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's why Lucretia and Steve never have common ground

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<v Speaker 2>with me.

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<v Speaker 4>Because you never agree with the right way of.

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<v Speaker 1>Looking at frames.

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<v Speaker 2>See.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So by the way, I mean this is nice.

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<v Speaker 4>By the way, if you guys haven't tried yours, just

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<v Speaker 4>a yeah, it's quality.

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<v Speaker 1>I had some yesterday because it just arrived yesterday, So

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<v Speaker 1>I broke it out open right away. Uh so, John,

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<v Speaker 1>I hope you said what people said, you know, if

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<v Speaker 1>not the experts, who should run the country, Because the

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<v Speaker 1>answer is, I don't know. The people like it says

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<v Speaker 1>the Constitute, what acquaint idea?

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<v Speaker 2>They would have tossed your ass right out onto the

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<v Speaker 2>we wouldn't even made it into the building. Come on,

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<v Speaker 2>it was a beautiful Greco Roman marble palace right next

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<v Speaker 2>to Independence Hall, and which was also amazing right across.

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<v Speaker 2>This is such a Philadelphia thing to do. We've preserved

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<v Speaker 2>the Second Bank of the United States is original building

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<v Speaker 2>which Andrew right the Second Bank which Andrew Jackson destroyed.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I said to them, you guys, I actually said,

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<v Speaker 2>you guys were going to relive what happened right across

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<v Speaker 2>the street at the Second Bank where Andrew Jackson came

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<v Speaker 2>along and destroyed this elitist institution. And we didn't have

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<v Speaker 2>another federal reserve by for one hundred years, for eighty years.

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<v Speaker 2>And they, I don't think they just don't think this

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<v Speaker 2>is possible. They really said, if the experts don't make policy,

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<v Speaker 2>who's going to make it? Then they laughed at me.

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<v Speaker 4>Couldn't you use Lincoln's argument against them? You know his

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<v Speaker 4>uh the fragment that you know, if a comes along,

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<v Speaker 4>it says that, uh, you know, you should be my

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<v Speaker 4>slave because your skin is lighter than mine. You should

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<v Speaker 4>be my slave because you're dumber than me. That's not

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<v Speaker 4>how he puts it. That's my way of putting it,

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<v Speaker 4>of course, But anyway, my point would be to these

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<v Speaker 4>smart ass eletes, a way, if somebody comes along who's

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<v Speaker 4>better educated and more elite than you are, they should

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<v Speaker 4>rule over you without any consent on your part. Do

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<v Speaker 4>you ever make that argument?

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<v Speaker 2>They know they would, because I'm sure they would say yes,

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<v Speaker 2>and that person, I'm sure they wouldn't. I'm sure you

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't know this. They have such blind faith in science

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<v Speaker 2>to solve as a way to solve all policy problems.

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<v Speaker 4>They really really and we saw how well that worked

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<v Speaker 4>out in COVID. And you know, blind faith in science.

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<v Speaker 4>As long as it's con a system of climate change,

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<v Speaker 4>as long as it's consistent with exactly our political views

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<v Speaker 4>and our political preferences, then we really like science. But

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<v Speaker 4>if it doesn't, if it doesn't conform with that, we

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<v Speaker 4>might not like it so much.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it is funny. It is funny how often what

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<v Speaker 1>the science says coincides with the political views and interest

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<v Speaker 1>of the bureaucracy.

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<v Speaker 4>Right there you go, And when it turns out science

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<v Speaker 4>doesn't really say that after.

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<v Speaker 1>All, by the way, I mean speaking of Second Bank.

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<v Speaker 1>And then we're going to take our first break real

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<v Speaker 1>quick news today you probably heard, is that the Justice

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<v Speaker 1>Department is dropping its investigation into FED Chairman Powell. I

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<v Speaker 1>was thought I was lost. Yeah, I was thought that

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<v Speaker 1>was an air adventure for a bunch of reasons that

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<v Speaker 1>I won't delay us with. But also big news today

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<v Speaker 1>you probably haven't heard. I didn't know this was happening.

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<v Speaker 1>But a ballot measure to require voter ID in California

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<v Speaker 1>has qualified for the November ballot. Wow, this, I think

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<v Speaker 1>it might too. Right. It'll depend on.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of seventy cent in favor of those.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, even in California, I think so that

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<v Speaker 1>will be interesting.

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<v Speaker 4>And the problem is is that you won't have to

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<v Speaker 4>have voter ID to vote for that ballot measure, and

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<v Speaker 4>that could be the problem.

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<v Speaker 1>All Right, we're gonna go to our first quick ad

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<v Speaker 1>break and then we'll be right back. Everybody, don't go away,

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<v Speaker 1>all right. Our first subject today is move over Trump

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<v Speaker 1>derangement syndrome and make way for Thomas derangement syndrome. I

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<v Speaker 1>refer a course to the reaction to Justice Thomas's terrific

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<v Speaker 1>speech last week in Austin. You were there present for it,

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<v Speaker 1>John uh and the reaction to it just shows me

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<v Speaker 1>how sensitive the left is to any criticism of their

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<v Speaker 1>progressive project. Because Thomas had part of a speech, and

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<v Speaker 1>there are many parts that are worthy of note, I think,

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<v Speaker 1>but part of it was a ringing attack on what

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<v Speaker 1>we were just talking about, the cult of expertise and

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<v Speaker 1>a progressivism that sought to replace the regime of the

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<v Speaker 1>founders with the regime of experts. So I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>if you're following anything reaction, but over to you guys.

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<v Speaker 4>Let me say first, this is not what I expected

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<v Speaker 4>to say. But Erwin, our good friend, Erwin Schimrinski, came

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<v Speaker 4>out on Scotis blog and said it was a wrongheaded

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<v Speaker 4>attack on progressivism. I did too, it's a Scotis blog,

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<v Speaker 4>and so let's see. The problem is that what what

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<v Speaker 4>Thomas is doing is failing to unite the country by

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<v Speaker 4>attacking progressivism. And it's wrong to think of Stalin, Hitler

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<v Speaker 4>and Mussolini as progressives in any definition of that term.

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<v Speaker 4>Because obviously Erwin doesn't understand I was going to say

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<v Speaker 4>a bad word anything anyway. I just thought i'd lead

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<v Speaker 4>with that, because that's a new one. We saw Robert

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<v Speaker 4>Reich any stupidity, you know, we saw Paul Waldman and

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<v Speaker 4>his stupidity. But I think Erin might take the case

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<v Speaker 4>on this one, you know that.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I don't know. Maybe the one by Ludig

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<v Speaker 2>was the most embarrassing for its settleness, So you know

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<v Speaker 2>there's a moment to address the just I mean, Linda

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<v Speaker 2>Laura Ingram attacked him viciously on fuck but I heard

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<v Speaker 2>barely too where she said, here was a guy, Judge Ludig,

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<v Speaker 2>who was, you know, one of Thomas's best friends, a

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<v Speaker 2>conservative appellate judge didn't get the Supreme Court, didn't get

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<v Speaker 2>the he interviewed for the Chief Justice ship, lost to

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<v Speaker 2>roberts Quit, then became a lawyer for Boeing, and then

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<v Speaker 2>after January sixth has been attacking Trump. But now he

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<v Speaker 2>attacks his friend, former French Thomas, and his argument goes

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<v Speaker 2>like this. It says progressives couldn't possibly be against a

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<v Speaker 2>declaration because Thomas Jefferson wrote the declaration and Thomas Jefferson

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<v Speaker 2>was the original progressive. And then he said it couldn't

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<v Speaker 2>be that because these other Democrats also could So there

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<v Speaker 2>I have praised the declaration like Franklin Roosevelt, So there

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't possibly be a conflict between progressivism and now it's

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<v Speaker 2>just it was just so wrongheaded because I think actually

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<v Speaker 2>he mentions Hugo black in there, who I'm not sure

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<v Speaker 2>if he was a progressive, but I remember he was

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<v Speaker 2>in the KKK before he was a senator. But the

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<v Speaker 2>idea that Thomas Jefferson has anything to do with progressivism,

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<v Speaker 2>which arises about one hundred years later, it just it's

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<v Speaker 2>just so it's just just sadly non rigorous. It's just

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<v Speaker 2>sloppy a way to attack this idea that progressivism and

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<v Speaker 2>the Declaration had are actually the same thing. I thought

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<v Speaker 2>that was actually just embarrassing, Uh, just embarrassing logic not

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<v Speaker 2>to mention the kind of stabbing your old friends in

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<v Speaker 2>the back because you're so upset about Trump.

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<v Speaker 4>And it wasn't Trump who failed to nominate him to

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<v Speaker 4>the Supreme Court, did he just sort of There seems

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<v Speaker 4>to be a kind of pattern about people who should

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<v Speaker 4>have been nominated to this who they think should have

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<v Speaker 4>been nominated to the Supreme Court, and then aren't, and

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<v Speaker 4>they just seem to get bitter and stupid. And you know,

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<v Speaker 4>Gorsich is another example of that, not necessarily in the

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<v Speaker 4>Gorsig Sorry, the other guy, Garland I always say the

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<v Speaker 4>wrong one. I apologize, Garland, No, you probably don't. I

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<v Speaker 4>do know the difference. I just get the names wrong.

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<v Speaker 4>But you know the I don't. There's nine justices of

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<v Speaker 4>the Court and literally hundreds of people who could be

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<v Speaker 4>considered qualified at any given time for any kind of opening, right,

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, that's not an unfair thing to say, right,

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<v Speaker 4>Why this bitterness that seems to creep out from some

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<v Speaker 4>people who are so devastated once they don't get that

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<v Speaker 4>nomination that I mean, even Laurence Tribe. I think you

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<v Speaker 4>could say that about but I won't go that far.

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<v Speaker 4>That takes us too far field. One thing I missed

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<v Speaker 4>it mention to you. It goes along though with what

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<v Speaker 4>you were saying about Luddig. And that's from our again,

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<v Speaker 4>from our good friend Irwin, who says that, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>first of all, Thomas doesn't understand what progressivism is because

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<v Speaker 4>he calls Wilson a progressive. And Wilson well may have

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<v Speaker 4>been a progressive, but he was you know, totally totally

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<v Speaker 4>uh you know, a racist and a bigot, and that

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<v Speaker 4>for that makes him not a progressive.

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<v Speaker 1>So yeah, right, the uh, yes, oh, there's a time

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<v Speaker 1>to say about this, so one is again the left

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<v Speaker 1>is very sensitive when you draw connections on the level

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<v Speaker 1>of principle and philosophy to the totalitarians of the twentieth century.

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<v Speaker 1>On the other hand, I did post this on substack

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<v Speaker 1>the other day. A history a book by a history

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<v Speaker 1>professor at Yale from just a few years ago. Ti

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<v Speaker 1>title Hitler's American Model, United States and the Making of

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<v Speaker 1>Nazi Race Law, and the book explains how from minecomf on,

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of the Nazis were looking at American race

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<v Speaker 1>laws put in place by democrats, let us remember, and

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<v Speaker 1>certain aspects of progressive thought right, and so no, you

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<v Speaker 1>can see why they're so sensitive about this, because it's

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<v Speaker 1>a weak point for them. There was this odd part

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<v Speaker 1>in Luni's article where he said, Wilson's not the It's

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<v Speaker 1>similar to Urbin's point, Wilson's not the progressive progressive as

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<v Speaker 1>it really originates with Teddy Roosevelt. And I thought this

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<v Speaker 1>is a wrong and a historical and stupid and b

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<v Speaker 1>why is he doing that deflection. I think there's this

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<v Speaker 1>equivocation among liberals on the one hand, say, as Irwin did,

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<v Speaker 1>Wilson's a racist. But on the other hand, if you

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<v Speaker 1>tag him with being the premier theorist of progressivism in

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<v Speaker 1>the administrative state, along with people like John Burgess, who

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<v Speaker 1>nobody's heard of except Wirdo's like Hey and other legal

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<v Speaker 1>theorists of the time. Right, Yes, they want to exonerate

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<v Speaker 1>it and make it bipartisan again, so they're off the

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<v Speaker 1>hook for this disaster of progressivism in the last one

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<v Speaker 1>hundred years. So the interesting little thing that slipped by

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<v Speaker 1>I think, I.

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<v Speaker 2>Mean, it's just a historical to claim that Woodrow Wilson's

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<v Speaker 2>not a progressive. I mean, you go back and you

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<v Speaker 2>read the history of the period, and he's he's the chief,

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<v Speaker 2>He's the theorist in charge of progressivism.

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<v Speaker 4>And I think he is. Forgive me for this, but

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<v Speaker 4>I think that the oversimplified way to tie together the

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<v Speaker 4>racism of a Woodrow Wilson to the identity politics of

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<v Speaker 4>progressives today really is back to what John was saying

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<v Speaker 4>about his earlier about his conversation with Rogers Smith, that

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<v Speaker 4>what ultimately what it comes down to is it elites

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<v Speaker 4>want the power to remake society and the image they

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<v Speaker 4>think they should be it should be remade, and early

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<v Speaker 4>progressives sought, let's get rid of the undesirables, and later

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<v Speaker 4>progressives say, let's use the undesirables to of advance our

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<v Speaker 4>own elite interests, in our own elite power. And there's

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<v Speaker 4>really there, you know, And there's certainly no side of

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<v Speaker 4>progressives that really wants what's best for those formerly undesirable people.

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<v Speaker 4>They just want to use them to their advantage. And

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<v Speaker 4>so it's it's just a matter of, you know's what's

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<v Speaker 4>convenient at the time. The same theory holds true either way.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, the other thing is you got to if

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<v Speaker 2>you read the speech more carefully. It's not just Woodrow

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<v Speaker 2>Wilson who's identified. He's just some, but it talks about

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<v Speaker 2>John Dewey, who also says I think even worse things

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<v Speaker 2>about the American people than Wilson does. And then you

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<v Speaker 2>know your guy's favorite justice, Oliver Wendell Holmes, the author

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<v Speaker 2>of Buck versus Bell, you know, one of the great

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<v Speaker 2>progressive justices. They don't even try to pretend he's not

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<v Speaker 2>a progressive or that he loved the Declaration, because he

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<v Speaker 2>basically thinks this natural rights stuff is a bunch of

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<v Speaker 2>whoy and he he's all in favor of right, enlightened,

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<v Speaker 2>rational social policy, and.

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<v Speaker 1>You may know this to natural rights. Teddy Roosevelt later

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<v Speaker 1>greatly regretted having appointed Holmes to the court. And I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know what to make of that, except that.

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<v Speaker 2>I would have seen that. I would have thought they

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<v Speaker 2>said of all the things the same way.

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<v Speaker 1>Look.

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<v Speaker 4>Sorry, I was just going to say, I'd love to

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<v Speaker 4>have somebody who really understood this better than I do

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<v Speaker 4>explain to me if the way to understand Teddy Roosevelt

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<v Speaker 4>really is what. Let me put it like this, when

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<v Speaker 4>you read a textbook account of who the progressives are

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<v Speaker 4>and why they are all against the you know, concentration

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<v Speaker 4>of power in monopolies, and they're you know so, so

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<v Speaker 4>that's that part of it is definitely what Teddy Roosevelt

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<v Speaker 4>was all about. That's where progressivism gets its start. But

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<v Speaker 4>the theoretical parts of the political parts of the progressivism

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<v Speaker 4>take a very ugly turn very early on. And I

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<v Speaker 4>don't think my understanding. I'm not an expert on Teddy Roosevelt.

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<v Speaker 4>Although I admire him in many ways, I don't think

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<v Speaker 4>he ever really bought into that part of it, or

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<v Speaker 4>am I wrong?

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<v Speaker 1>Uh, Well, it's a mixed bag. And to sort that out,

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<v Speaker 1>we'll have to have gene Yarborough on sometime.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Great, Yeah, she's the expert on this, her books on

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<v Speaker 1>I forget the title of her great book on Wilson. Sorry, Roosevelt,

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<v Speaker 1>but we want to take another quick break and come

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<v Speaker 1>back with more on the declaration.

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<v Speaker 2>Let it let it know, go the passing. She's also

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<v Speaker 2>a great Hamburger cook. Apparently we need to have her,

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<v Speaker 2>yes and play her ware.

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<v Speaker 1>Let me try and get her out here next fall.

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<v Speaker 1>So stay tuned for all that, but we'll be back. Listeners.

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<v Speaker 1>Don't go away. Hey, you're listening to the three Whiskey

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<v Speaker 1>Happy Hour. So, John, you have once again thrown a

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<v Speaker 1>curveball at all of us by writing a piece on

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<v Speaker 1>executive power as it's embedded or implied you think in

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<v Speaker 1>the Declaration of Independence. I think I can make this out.

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<v Speaker 1>But give us a quick summary and then we'll see

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<v Speaker 1>if it makes any sense.

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<v Speaker 2>No, all you Claire monsters, you guys can't hit the curveball.

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<v Speaker 2>You guys can't hit breaking balls. You only go for

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<v Speaker 2>the fastballs, and you guys are always swinging for the fences, right,

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<v Speaker 2>so you're like the modern Major League baseball You're always

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<v Speaker 2>striking out. And then you're getting the occasional homer and

404
00:22:39.319 --> 00:22:42.519
<v Speaker 2>you think that's a baseball game, but actually wants some singles,

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<v Speaker 2>doubles and triples too. So my argument here is that

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<v Speaker 2>if you listen to common political rhetoric, they often say

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<v Speaker 2>the founders are against executive power, they're against presidents, see

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<v Speaker 2>e g. The Declaration of Independence. Right, So I don't

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<v Speaker 2>think actually the attack on the British King, it is

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<v Speaker 2>of course replete with attacks on the British King, are

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<v Speaker 2>really attacks on the executive There are attacks, I think

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<v Speaker 2>of them more as a federalism argument. There are attacks

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<v Speaker 2>on es central power controlling colonies. And so they're complaining

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<v Speaker 2>about the fact that it's really London or Great Britain

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<v Speaker 2>that is taking these rights away. It's really Great Britain

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<v Speaker 2>where we don't you know, the founding fathers don't have representation.

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<v Speaker 2>These are not complaints against what we understand to be

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<v Speaker 2>the nature of executive power from say Machiavelli or even Blackstone.

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<v Speaker 2>They're not complaints about being oppressed by king.

420
00:23:42.039 --> 00:23:42.359
<v Speaker 1>I think.

421
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:46.160
<v Speaker 2>So I tried to argue that declaration it's anti executive

422
00:23:46.279 --> 00:23:51.160
<v Speaker 2>heures really more of a complaint about essentral power oppressing

423
00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:52.839
<v Speaker 2>the decentralized colonies.

424
00:23:54.039 --> 00:23:57.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, I am. I'm not sure I buy the

425
00:23:57.839 --> 00:23:59.920
<v Speaker 1>way you put it together, although I do think you're

426
00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:02.759
<v Speaker 1>I think you're generally correct about you can tease out

427
00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:05.960
<v Speaker 1>executive power. But I think that well, what I did,

428
00:24:05.960 --> 00:24:08.319
<v Speaker 1>of course, is somebody you ignored. I dusted off Harvey

429
00:24:08.359 --> 00:24:11.839
<v Speaker 1>Mansfield's great book on the ambivalence of executive power. And

430
00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:14.759
<v Speaker 1>of course we think of Locke and Blackstone together as

431
00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:19.799
<v Speaker 1>championing parliamentary supremacy. But even in Locke, Harvey says, you

432
00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:22.200
<v Speaker 1>can make out the understanding that you're going to need

433
00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:23.559
<v Speaker 1>well the executive progative chapter.

434
00:24:23.680 --> 00:24:27.799
<v Speaker 2>Yes, you need to have an executive right characteristics.

435
00:24:28.279 --> 00:24:30.680
<v Speaker 1>But you know, Harvey pulls together in ways that I

436
00:24:31.039 --> 00:24:33.240
<v Speaker 1>guess I haven't studied law carefully enough. He pulls together

437
00:24:33.319 --> 00:24:36.119
<v Speaker 1>the way you can see that you want separation of

438
00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:38.599
<v Speaker 1>powers and federal the things you just mentioned, separation of

439
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:43.359
<v Speaker 1>powers and federalism to constitutionalize and contain the executive, even

440
00:24:43.400 --> 00:24:46.640
<v Speaker 1>though at the margins you can't really contain the executive

441
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:50.519
<v Speaker 1>in emergencies. Right, So I guess maybe I'm not really

442
00:24:50.519 --> 00:24:53.359
<v Speaker 1>disagreeing with you. I'm just laying out a parallel analysis.

443
00:24:54.119 --> 00:24:57.799
<v Speaker 2>But it's the case that the declaration in these break

444
00:24:57.839 --> 00:25:01.279
<v Speaker 2>this and this anti king George Litany is always held

445
00:25:01.359 --> 00:25:04.920
<v Speaker 2>up by critics of president says see see the framing

446
00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:08.240
<v Speaker 2>is uh. The framing reject executive power. It basically is

447
00:25:08.279 --> 00:25:12.640
<v Speaker 2>a parliamentary system. The president just exists to execute congressional policy.

448
00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:17.640
<v Speaker 4>And I, you know, I agree. I don't know that

449
00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:19.720
<v Speaker 4>I would evanghasize quite the same things you did, But

450
00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:22.000
<v Speaker 4>I didn't disagree with anything that you wrote. Actually, John

451
00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:24.920
<v Speaker 4>and I did mention that in our text messages back

452
00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:27.519
<v Speaker 4>and forth that I was thrilled to see that, uh,

453
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:30.839
<v Speaker 4>you admit that, in fact the basis of our form

454
00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:36.279
<v Speaker 4>of government is in fact consent uh and UH natural law,

455
00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:40.720
<v Speaker 4>natural rights uh and people consent to the government. And

456
00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:43.960
<v Speaker 4>that was I thought a wonderful addition to your.

457
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:48.039
<v Speaker 2>I was, you know, you know, listener, something is up.

458
00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:50.880
<v Speaker 2>Either they're drunk or they're trying to get something matter,

459
00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:54.480
<v Speaker 2>because I do not understand when Linda's being so nice

460
00:25:54.519 --> 00:26:00.559
<v Speaker 2>to me, you hand quote unquote nice luecret what's up

461
00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:05.319
<v Speaker 2>with this? Am I about to No?

462
00:26:05.480 --> 00:26:09.160
<v Speaker 4>I do not, contrary to popular opinion, I am not

463
00:26:09.400 --> 00:26:14.839
<v Speaker 4>irascible and disagreeable and opinionated against people when I agree

464
00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:17.720
<v Speaker 4>with them. I mean, when you're right, you're right, and

465
00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:19.839
<v Speaker 4>I thought you were right. I also said, for what

466
00:26:19.960 --> 00:26:23.680
<v Speaker 4>is worth it, I don't take the arguments that that

467
00:26:23.720 --> 00:26:27.000
<v Speaker 4>you just outlined from the other side very seriously because

468
00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:31.240
<v Speaker 4>it just shows a really fundamental misunderstanding of the whole

469
00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:33.319
<v Speaker 4>founding period. But I thought it was nice the way,

470
00:26:33.559 --> 00:26:35.440
<v Speaker 4>and I hope Steve is going to link to it.

471
00:26:35.559 --> 00:26:37.960
<v Speaker 4>Nice the way you sort of walk through some of

472
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:41.799
<v Speaker 4>the experiences between the Declaration with the articles of Confederate

473
00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:44.960
<v Speaker 4>with the states and their experiences, and and what I

474
00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:47.119
<v Speaker 4>mentioned to you guys, and this is the truth, is

475
00:26:47.160 --> 00:26:50.640
<v Speaker 4>that I often when I'm explaining to my students the

476
00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:54.119
<v Speaker 4>need for the Federalist papers, why Hamilton wanted to write

477
00:26:54.119 --> 00:26:58.359
<v Speaker 4>the Federalist papers, it's in fact because New York as

478
00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:01.119
<v Speaker 4>a state did not offer from all of the same

479
00:27:01.279 --> 00:27:06.680
<v Speaker 4>kinds of bad government, put it that way, ill government

480
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:09.680
<v Speaker 4>that some of the other states did. And a big

481
00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:11.480
<v Speaker 4>reason for that, you know, and they were, you know,

482
00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:14.319
<v Speaker 4>becoming the economic capital of the world. A big reason

483
00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:18.279
<v Speaker 4>for that was, in fact, the strong governor in New York.

484
00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:21.400
<v Speaker 4>And I explained that as a way of saying this

485
00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:26.079
<v Speaker 4>is you know, the Declaration of Independence does not necessarily

486
00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:30.519
<v Speaker 4>preclude a strong executive, and I think that you can

487
00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:33.000
<v Speaker 4>look into the Bill of Particulars and find just as

488
00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:37.319
<v Speaker 4>many complaints about Parliament as you can about King George.

489
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:40.160
<v Speaker 1>So first of all, John, I'll say this that I

490
00:27:40.279 --> 00:27:43.519
<v Speaker 1>was mulling over this morning that you know, as thinking

491
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:45.839
<v Speaker 1>about the show today, I've never had any death threats,

492
00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:47.279
<v Speaker 1>And then I thought, oh, wait a minute, I have

493
00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:51.359
<v Speaker 1>had a few from Lucretia over the years.

494
00:27:52.359 --> 00:27:55.200
<v Speaker 2>I would rephrase that I get lots of death threats,

495
00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:57.759
<v Speaker 2>but I never took any seriously until I met Lucretia.

496
00:27:57.960 --> 00:28:04.759
<v Speaker 1>Right. It was this. I was, as I sometimes do

497
00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:07.000
<v Speaker 1>with you, John, I was fly specking your article more

498
00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:10.240
<v Speaker 1>than I should because I thought, Arthur Slessiger. You start

499
00:28:10.359 --> 00:28:15.920
<v Speaker 1>Arthur's Slesznger. I mean, it's Imperial Book junior, okay, and

500
00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:18.279
<v Speaker 1>then Paul Mayer's book. I think it's got some good

501
00:28:18.279 --> 00:28:20.119
<v Speaker 1>stuff in it, but here and there she betrays a

502
00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:23.079
<v Speaker 1>real condescending historicism that you can't help and that always

503
00:28:23.079 --> 00:28:26.880
<v Speaker 1>annoys me. But that's not your mainior argument necessarily. So

504
00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:27.759
<v Speaker 1>let's get out with this.

505
00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:32.400
<v Speaker 4>Can I just give it one more positive thing about John.

506
00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:33.839
<v Speaker 4>I think that's the reason.

507
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:43.119
<v Speaker 3>There's been a lot of silly things written about the

508
00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:46.079
<v Speaker 3>imperial presidency, et cetera, et cetera, and a lot of

509
00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:49.319
<v Speaker 3>silly things written even about sort of pro presidency scholars

510
00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:50.480
<v Speaker 3>who just don't get it.

511
00:28:50.839 --> 00:28:53.039
<v Speaker 4>So, even though I kind of made a little bit

512
00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:54.960
<v Speaker 4>of fun of John saying I'm not sure that the

513
00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:59.519
<v Speaker 4>people who argue that, you know, the declaration is against

514
00:28:59.599 --> 00:29:03.119
<v Speaker 4>executive power even worth taking notice of. It has been

515
00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:08.200
<v Speaker 4>a consistent theme for a long time that we should

516
00:29:08.359 --> 00:29:11.359
<v Speaker 4>you know, that Congress should be ascendant and Congress is

517
00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:14.640
<v Speaker 4>not acendant, and somehow because the administrative a sense a

518
00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:17.759
<v Speaker 4>state is a send that we should curtail the powers

519
00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:20.119
<v Speaker 4>of the presidency, and you know, all of those things.

520
00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:21.759
<v Speaker 4>So you do think that what you had to say

521
00:29:21.880 --> 00:29:25.160
<v Speaker 4>was important, and from a very fundamental level, that's that's

522
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:26.119
<v Speaker 4>what I wanted to finish.

523
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:28.720
<v Speaker 2>Actually, it actually ties together with the debate I had

524
00:29:28.759 --> 00:29:32.839
<v Speaker 2>at Rogers with Rogers Smith, because they're the people are

525
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:36.720
<v Speaker 2>speaking with again mostly scientists and you know, retired academics.

526
00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:41.240
<v Speaker 2>They they're inherently suspicious of the president. They just really

527
00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:43.680
<v Speaker 2>are they really But then as like you really you

528
00:29:43.720 --> 00:29:47.960
<v Speaker 2>really trust Congress. You know, the alternative is parliamentary system,

529
00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:50.079
<v Speaker 2>and you a really think Congress is doing a great

530
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:52.279
<v Speaker 2>job right now, I mean you would if you look

531
00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:55.319
<v Speaker 2>at the opinion polls, right it says right, Trump's opinion

532
00:29:55.319 --> 00:29:57.920
<v Speaker 2>polls don't look great, but they're still higher than Congress.

533
00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:00.799
<v Speaker 4>And there's still Congress has been for years.

534
00:30:01.079 --> 00:30:03.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there were years, I think, didn't I I think

535
00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:05.640
<v Speaker 2>I saw the Washington Post just did a poll where

536
00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:09.079
<v Speaker 2>Congress's approval rating is now the single digits for the

537
00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:09.960
<v Speaker 2>first time ever.

538
00:30:10.519 --> 00:30:13.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they're down to staff and family and maybe the pets,

539
00:30:13.640 --> 00:30:16.799
<v Speaker 1>and I'm not too sure about that. Right. All right,

540
00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:20.400
<v Speaker 1>let's let's uh, let's uh, let's take a very quick break,

541
00:30:20.440 --> 00:30:22.440
<v Speaker 1>and we'll come back with one more thing on the declaration,

542
00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:24.440
<v Speaker 1>and that's I want each of us to give our

543
00:30:24.519 --> 00:30:27.680
<v Speaker 1>favorite passage or or theme from Thomas's speech, So don't

544
00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:35.519
<v Speaker 1>go wait, we'll be right back, all right, lastly on

545
00:30:35.559 --> 00:30:38.799
<v Speaker 1>the never, lastly in the Declaration, but lastly, for this episode,

546
00:30:39.319 --> 00:30:41.359
<v Speaker 1>I want each of you to give me one sentence,

547
00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:43.960
<v Speaker 1>or one passage, or one theme from Thomas's speech that

548
00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:48.200
<v Speaker 1>you think especially deserves noting and highlighting. So Lucretia, You're.

549
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:53.240
<v Speaker 4>Up first, still mine. Of course it's obvious, but I

550
00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:56.559
<v Speaker 4>don't know that I can remember the last time a

551
00:30:56.720 --> 00:30:59.960
<v Speaker 4>major public figure actually made this argument. It's an argument

552
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:02.920
<v Speaker 4>and I'd made, not that you guys haven't, but I've

553
00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:07.240
<v Speaker 4>made for years on the three whiskey Happy Hour, which

554
00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:10.359
<v Speaker 4>is that the source of all of our ills is progressivism.

555
00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:17.200
<v Speaker 4>And that I think was the most the most jarring

556
00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:21.200
<v Speaker 4>thing to many people about Thomas's speech. Nobody's come out

557
00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:24.359
<v Speaker 4>and said it in a public forum like that, Like

558
00:31:24.359 --> 00:31:27.759
<v Speaker 4>you say, I've been saying it for years. But so

559
00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:30.559
<v Speaker 4>I want to read the short passage, and this is

560
00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:35.480
<v Speaker 4>the thing that's driving people absolutely crazy. Progressivism seeks, this

561
00:31:35.599 --> 00:31:40.440
<v Speaker 4>is Thomas. Progressivism seeks to replace the basic premises of

562
00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:43.880
<v Speaker 4>the Declaration of Independence and hence our form of government.

563
00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:46.759
<v Speaker 4>It holds that our rights and our dignities come not

564
00:31:46.920 --> 00:31:51.359
<v Speaker 4>from God but from the government. It requires of the

565
00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:57.559
<v Speaker 4>people a subservience and weakness incompatible with a constitution premised

566
00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:02.680
<v Speaker 4>on the transcendent origin of our rights. And speak about

567
00:32:02.759 --> 00:32:05.960
<v Speaker 4>you mentioned it in your piece. You know Paine tim

568
00:32:06.079 --> 00:32:10.559
<v Speaker 4>Taine and his stupid Sorry everybody gets upset when I

569
00:32:10.599 --> 00:32:13.160
<v Speaker 4>say stupid there is no other word to describe how

570
00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:16.920
<v Speaker 4>incredibly inane and stupid his remarks were. Our rights don't

571
00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:22.000
<v Speaker 4>come from God. That's what Islam. Radical Islam believes, you know,

572
00:32:22.359 --> 00:32:25.079
<v Speaker 4>stupid things like that. So that's my favorite part. And

573
00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:28.440
<v Speaker 4>God bless Thomas for having the courage to say something

574
00:32:28.519 --> 00:32:28.920
<v Speaker 4>like that.

575
00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:31.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know who else believe what Thomas said? John F.

576
00:32:31.880 --> 00:32:34.559
<v Speaker 1>Kennedy among others in his inaugural dress. But never mind,

577
00:32:34.599 --> 00:32:35.359
<v Speaker 1>that's agent that.

578
00:32:35.480 --> 00:32:39.640
<v Speaker 4>Was, That was what it is sixty some years ago, Steve.

579
00:32:39.720 --> 00:32:41.480
<v Speaker 2>I know, I know, you know, you you missed the

580
00:32:41.480 --> 00:32:44.079
<v Speaker 2>one person you missed this, you know for Potosian Reddit.

581
00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:48.599
<v Speaker 2>Lucretius talked about Steve substack post today where he listed

582
00:32:48.640 --> 00:32:52.039
<v Speaker 2>all the famous Democrats who appros proved of natural rights,

583
00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:56.920
<v Speaker 2>but you missed one other skeptic, the Lucretia's favorite justice

584
00:32:56.960 --> 00:33:01.359
<v Speaker 2>on the Supreme Court. Remember Catan Brown Jackson refused to

585
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:04.799
<v Speaker 2>answer the question at her confirmation hearing if there was

586
00:33:04.880 --> 00:33:06.799
<v Speaker 2>such a thing as natural rights.

587
00:33:07.240 --> 00:33:10.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but you know who else did that? With Atlanta

588
00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:13.559
<v Speaker 1>Kagan and her confirmation hearings now what twenty years ago

589
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:15.559
<v Speaker 1>also refused to answer that question.

590
00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:20.480
<v Speaker 4>So a long case anybody wonders why that in and

591
00:33:20.559 --> 00:33:24.319
<v Speaker 4>of itself is such a dangerous question for the progressive left.

592
00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:27.759
<v Speaker 4>It's a simple answer to that. If there are natural

593
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:33.279
<v Speaker 4>light rights, that is a limitation on what government can do,

594
00:33:33.799 --> 00:33:38.079
<v Speaker 4>and therefore a limitation on their power as they sit

595
00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:42.200
<v Speaker 4>in government. That is why Tim Kaine and Katanji and

596
00:33:42.279 --> 00:33:45.279
<v Speaker 4>all those other people want to deny that there is

597
00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:51.400
<v Speaker 4>something greater than themselves as all powerful government officials, that

598
00:33:51.519 --> 00:33:54.880
<v Speaker 4>might define how they ought to exercise their power.

599
00:33:56.039 --> 00:34:00.920
<v Speaker 2>Ye, so some things about the speech. Since I was there,

600
00:34:01.960 --> 00:34:06.240
<v Speaker 2>it was a watching it is great, but being in

601
00:34:06.279 --> 00:34:11.719
<v Speaker 2>person was incredible because the video doesn't capture the electric

602
00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:15.639
<v Speaker 2>atmosphere in the room where you don't hear. Nobody was coughing,

603
00:34:16.280 --> 00:34:19.880
<v Speaker 2>no one left, you could it was so silent because

604
00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:22.400
<v Speaker 2>people were really hanging on as every word. I can't

605
00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:24.679
<v Speaker 2>even remember the last time, you know, there was a

606
00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:29.760
<v Speaker 2>public speech like that. Another thing, and I sort of

607
00:34:29.800 --> 00:34:33.320
<v Speaker 2>remarked on this or a Sueider some other professors the

608
00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:36.039
<v Speaker 2>next day marked and they said, when was the last

609
00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:41.679
<v Speaker 2>time you heard a serious speech about political philosophy from

610
00:34:41.679 --> 00:34:46.719
<v Speaker 2>a major political leader? That right, most speeches these days are,

611
00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:49.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, accumulation of sound bites where everyone's trying to

612
00:34:49.400 --> 00:34:50.119
<v Speaker 2>sound like John R.

613
00:34:50.199 --> 00:34:51.719
<v Speaker 1>Spikers, right, and.

614
00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:54.360
<v Speaker 2>So it's almost said this was almost A friend of

615
00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:58.039
<v Speaker 2>mine said, this was like a sermon, almost on public virtue.

616
00:34:58.519 --> 00:35:00.360
<v Speaker 2>And so they said, when was the last time you

617
00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:05.599
<v Speaker 2>remember an American president, the leader, just Supreme Court justice

618
00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:08.400
<v Speaker 2>actually deliver a speech. And then the third thing I

619
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:10.519
<v Speaker 2>thought was interesting is what do you think when was

620
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:13.519
<v Speaker 2>the last time a single person gave a speech in

621
00:35:13.559 --> 00:35:17.239
<v Speaker 2>our country that sparked so much debate among intellectuals about

622
00:35:17.239 --> 00:35:18.960
<v Speaker 2>what it means? Is it correct?

623
00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:19.199
<v Speaker 1>Right?

624
00:35:19.239 --> 00:35:22.800
<v Speaker 2>Like the amount of discussion going on by right people

625
00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:24.840
<v Speaker 2>like us by single speech.

626
00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:26.239
<v Speaker 1>When was the last.

627
00:35:26.119 --> 00:35:29.280
<v Speaker 2>Time that actually happened? Well, and I'm not talking about

628
00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:30.760
<v Speaker 2>Harod Jaffa.

629
00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:32.280
<v Speaker 1>No no, no, no no no, I.

630
00:35:32.360 --> 00:35:36.800
<v Speaker 2>Said in a seminar Leonard Levy, making John Easton cry

631
00:35:36.920 --> 00:35:37.440
<v Speaker 2>and class.

632
00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:42.440
<v Speaker 5>How about a single public speech? Well wait a minute, time,

633
00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:46.719
<v Speaker 5>Well I lost time that happened, not to this magnitude,

634
00:35:46.760 --> 00:35:49.639
<v Speaker 5>but look, remember you had I think two Supreme Court

635
00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:53.760
<v Speaker 5>justices made public statements rebutting Attorney General Ed mess when

636
00:35:53.880 --> 00:35:55.840
<v Speaker 5>edme said we ought to have original intent back on

637
00:35:55.840 --> 00:35:58.679
<v Speaker 5>our constitutional interpretation. And we kind of know how that

638
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:02.440
<v Speaker 5>debate unfolded. I think that drew out all and all

639
00:36:02.519 --> 00:36:05.639
<v Speaker 5>the prophet sorry had published lawry articles the this is terrible.

640
00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:09.400
<v Speaker 5>Our teacher Leonard Levy wrote a whole book attacking bork

641
00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:12.199
<v Speaker 5>An original intent in nineteen eighty seven, and the later

642
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:12.920
<v Speaker 5>backed off.

643
00:36:13.239 --> 00:36:16.719
<v Speaker 1>Anyway, it was about forty years ago, area, and.

644
00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:19.000
<v Speaker 4>Even that I wouldn't consider at this level. I mean,

645
00:36:19.079 --> 00:36:24.920
<v Speaker 4>this is as basic a level about American founding principles

646
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:30.360
<v Speaker 4>as you can get. Originalism is a method, a method tied,

647
00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:36.880
<v Speaker 4>but a method. This is about how the reigning orthodoxy

648
00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:42.320
<v Speaker 4>of our political elites, pretty much across the board, is

649
00:36:42.519 --> 00:36:48.719
<v Speaker 4>fundamentally unsound and opposed to our constitutional system of government.

650
00:36:49.039 --> 00:36:52.559
<v Speaker 4>And I know I'm not supposed to do one more thing,

651
00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:54.280
<v Speaker 4>but let me just bring this out a little bit.

652
00:36:54.599 --> 00:36:57.320
<v Speaker 4>And that the other part of what I found so

653
00:36:57.519 --> 00:37:00.280
<v Speaker 4>compelling about his speech, which is very much such a

654
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:03.519
<v Speaker 4>Thomas thing. You know, him and Virginia going out in

655
00:37:03.559 --> 00:37:09.840
<v Speaker 4>their their temper that rvsiting America. You know, it's it's

656
00:37:09.880 --> 00:37:12.800
<v Speaker 4>it's I'm not going to speak to you academics. I

657
00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:16.840
<v Speaker 4>don't care about you academics. If we're going to save

658
00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:19.760
<v Speaker 4>this country. It's a little bit trumpion here. If we're

659
00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:22.719
<v Speaker 4>gonna save this country, it's going to be from the

660
00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:27.280
<v Speaker 4>common sense of the average good American. And you gotta

661
00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:30.840
<v Speaker 4>love that, you know, and you know Thomas believes it,

662
00:37:31.119 --> 00:37:34.280
<v Speaker 4>and you know it offends those academics and those elite

663
00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:38.480
<v Speaker 4>intellectual elites more than anything else. He said, because oh wait,

664
00:37:38.599 --> 00:37:41.559
<v Speaker 4>you think that the Holy PELOI is going to save

665
00:37:41.599 --> 00:37:44.840
<v Speaker 4>this country from us? How insulting?

666
00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:48.639
<v Speaker 2>Right, So he addressed this this point I think in

667
00:37:48.760 --> 00:37:51.800
<v Speaker 2>the question I keep asking you guys on prove to

668
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:54.719
<v Speaker 2>me that natural rights natural rights exist and where they

669
00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:58.039
<v Speaker 2>come from. And it's the way he says it is.

670
00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:02.199
<v Speaker 2>He doesn't have any high eluding STRAUSI and metaphysics, which

671
00:38:02.199 --> 00:38:04.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure you guys could have filled in the for

672
00:38:04.960 --> 00:38:11.039
<v Speaker 2>the speech, but he just says something along the lines of, uh,

673
00:38:11.400 --> 00:38:14.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, his all the blacks he lived with who

674
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:17.159
<v Speaker 2>were living under segregation and has extended from slavery, where

675
00:38:17.159 --> 00:38:21.280
<v Speaker 2>many were illiterate and uneducated, and they knew it was true.

676
00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:24.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

677
00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:26.920
<v Speaker 2>So I'm still not sure why that proves it. I

678
00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:28.559
<v Speaker 2>want you guys to explain that to me one of

679
00:38:28.599 --> 00:38:30.679
<v Speaker 2>these days. But let me give you my favorite quote.

680
00:38:30.679 --> 00:38:33.679
<v Speaker 2>I want to make sure you're listening very carefully because

681
00:38:33.800 --> 00:38:36.559
<v Speaker 2>these were These words were no doubt the most important

682
00:38:36.559 --> 00:38:37.400
<v Speaker 2>words in the speech.

683
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:37.840
<v Speaker 1>Wishes.

684
00:38:38.559 --> 00:38:41.239
<v Speaker 2>I'm grateful for the assistance of my former law clerk,

685
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:50.199
<v Speaker 2>Professor John You I. I think he labored over those

686
00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:52.239
<v Speaker 2>led over them. John.

687
00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:54.880
<v Speaker 4>I got so many people on Twitter.

688
00:38:56.360 --> 00:38:58.480
<v Speaker 2>In terms of why that's in the speech just to

689
00:38:58.480 --> 00:39:01.039
<v Speaker 2>explain is that he was thinking me for inviting him

690
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:01.840
<v Speaker 2>to confiicate.

691
00:39:01.960 --> 00:39:08.320
<v Speaker 4>Ut lots of people commented, but your stock way.

692
00:39:08.199 --> 00:39:10.360
<v Speaker 1>Up the vote is.

693
00:39:12.280 --> 00:39:14.880
<v Speaker 2>The real clue. Actually, I got a lot of texts

694
00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:17.920
<v Speaker 2>from people saying I didn't know you were moving to

695
00:39:18.119 --> 00:39:20.519
<v Speaker 2>Austin from Berkeley, and I was like, thank you Justice

696
00:39:20.519 --> 00:39:23.840
<v Speaker 2>for announcing to everyone that I am now leaving, which

697
00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:26.800
<v Speaker 2>I hadn't even told people Berkeley yet. So my favorite

698
00:39:26.840 --> 00:39:31.119
<v Speaker 2>line is we were fortunate not to trade our lockey

699
00:39:31.159 --> 00:39:34.119
<v Speaker 2>and bounds for the supposedly and light world of Hegel,

700
00:39:34.199 --> 00:39:37.599
<v Speaker 2>Marx and their followers. Fascism, which after all was a

701
00:39:37.719 --> 00:39:41.679
<v Speaker 2>national socialism, triggered wars in Europe and Asia that killed

702
00:39:41.719 --> 00:39:45.159
<v Speaker 2>tens of millions. The socialism of the Soviet Union and

703
00:39:45.199 --> 00:39:48.159
<v Speaker 2>the People's Republic of China proceeded to kill more tens

704
00:39:48.159 --> 00:39:50.880
<v Speaker 2>of millions of their own people. This is what happens

705
00:39:50.920 --> 00:39:54.159
<v Speaker 2>when natural rights give way to the higher goods, higher

706
00:39:54.199 --> 00:39:56.880
<v Speaker 2>good of notions of history, progress or, as Thomas sol

707
00:39:56.880 --> 00:39:59.360
<v Speaker 2>has written, the visions of the annoyance.

708
00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:01.360
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that's beautiful.

709
00:40:01.719 --> 00:40:04.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think really triggered. But as you say, you

710
00:40:04.239 --> 00:40:07.800
<v Speaker 2>guys saying that, I think that really triggered people on

711
00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:11.119
<v Speaker 2>the left. They don't want to be associated with the

712
00:40:11.199 --> 00:40:13.159
<v Speaker 2>right where they got the ideas from, because they don't

713
00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:15.480
<v Speaker 2>like to see what happens when they carry to their

714
00:40:15.559 --> 00:40:16.519
<v Speaker 2>natural conclusion.

715
00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:23.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And also, well, John, to to your previous point, Tom, Well,

716
00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:26.880
<v Speaker 1>first all, the answer your question is where's Thomas anchoring

717
00:40:26.920 --> 00:40:29.920
<v Speaker 1>the natural rights? It's with the idea of common sense

718
00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:33.360
<v Speaker 1>understanding a political life of Aristotle. But he does have

719
00:40:33.400 --> 00:40:35.280
<v Speaker 1>a nice shot of the academics. I wasn't going to

720
00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:36.960
<v Speaker 1>highlight these for mind, I have a different one. But

721
00:40:37.480 --> 00:40:39.559
<v Speaker 1>he says, you're in page three of the text that

722
00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:44.920
<v Speaker 1>I have somehow without formal education, subtle dig there. Right,

723
00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:48.000
<v Speaker 1>the older people knew that these god given or natural

724
00:40:48.079 --> 00:40:51.800
<v Speaker 1>rights preceded and transcendent government power or authority. A few

725
00:40:51.880 --> 00:40:54.519
<v Speaker 1>sentences later, he says, all too often there is an

726
00:40:54.599 --> 00:40:58.599
<v Speaker 1>unfortunate tendency when discussing a declaration to make these self

727
00:40:58.599 --> 00:41:02.559
<v Speaker 1>evident truths in first principle of government obscure, well, making

728
00:41:02.559 --> 00:41:04.679
<v Speaker 1>everything obscure. Right, mind, break.

729
00:41:04.519 --> 00:41:07.800
<v Speaker 2>Quickly finished the next sentence, because this is a slam

730
00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:11.280
<v Speaker 2>of you guys in your profession. No, it's not want

731
00:41:11.320 --> 00:41:20.199
<v Speaker 2>you to believe that our founding are matters of philosophy debate.

732
00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:21.960
<v Speaker 2>He's talking about you, guys.

733
00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:25.519
<v Speaker 1>No, he means, he means Jack balcon and people. Never

734
00:41:25.559 --> 00:41:29.079
<v Speaker 1>mind to be continued, mine do very quickly, and then

735
00:41:29.079 --> 00:41:31.119
<v Speaker 1>we'll go to a last break and change subsec completely.

736
00:41:31.559 --> 00:41:34.880
<v Speaker 1>I liked the passage starting on page five where he says,

737
00:41:34.920 --> 00:41:37.559
<v Speaker 1>when I encounter the declaration of independence in you today,

738
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:40.679
<v Speaker 1>I am most struck by the final sentence, and of

739
00:41:40.679 --> 00:41:44.400
<v Speaker 1>course he quotes it, the sentence about we mutually pledge

740
00:41:44.440 --> 00:41:47.199
<v Speaker 1>to each other our lives, our fortune, and our sacred honor.

741
00:41:47.440 --> 00:41:49.559
<v Speaker 1>And he goes on for three more pages to talk

742
00:41:49.599 --> 00:41:52.679
<v Speaker 1>about what that means, my simple proposition, and then we'll

743
00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:54.199
<v Speaker 1>go to a break, because I don't need to dilate

744
00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:57.719
<v Speaker 1>it is honor is another place the progressive left cannot

745
00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:00.440
<v Speaker 1>go because I really don't believe in it. And and

746
00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:03.239
<v Speaker 1>if you actually play out the connection between honor and say,

747
00:42:03.280 --> 00:42:05.000
<v Speaker 1>the pursuit of happiness. This is the point I made

748
00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:07.199
<v Speaker 1>in Austin two three weeks back when we were all there.

749
00:42:07.880 --> 00:42:11.159
<v Speaker 1>You realize that, again, these are classical men in a

750
00:42:11.199 --> 00:42:15.239
<v Speaker 1>deep way, and they weren't. But what's the line Lucretia

751
00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:18.480
<v Speaker 1>and I forget what Shakespearean play it is where one

752
00:42:18.519 --> 00:42:22.119
<v Speaker 1>of his characters scoffs at honor. It's a mere word, right,

753
00:42:23.440 --> 00:42:26.360
<v Speaker 1>and that's what progressive honor is not meaningful to the

754
00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:29.079
<v Speaker 1>progressive left. So for Thomas to embrace that was one

755
00:42:29.119 --> 00:42:31.760
<v Speaker 1>more little insult. And they can't go there. They're scared

756
00:42:31.760 --> 00:42:32.920
<v Speaker 1>of it, That's all.

757
00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:37.400
<v Speaker 2>Can I say? One laste? I'm not sure this is

758
00:42:37.639 --> 00:42:40.599
<v Speaker 2>just speculation. Is a lot of the part of the

759
00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:45.320
<v Speaker 2>speech that isn't getting covered is how he was not

760
00:42:45.400 --> 00:42:49.039
<v Speaker 2>just criticizing progressives, but you're the language you're quoting who

761
00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:53.039
<v Speaker 2>was calling on the younger generations to sort of dedicate

762
00:42:53.079 --> 00:42:56.639
<v Speaker 2>themselves on a level of honor as you're saying, And

763
00:42:56.679 --> 00:43:00.679
<v Speaker 2>he mentions things like the battlefield of the Revolution, Normandy

764
00:43:01.320 --> 00:43:05.480
<v Speaker 2>Civil War. Yeah, the Civil War. And so maybe you

765
00:43:05.559 --> 00:43:08.199
<v Speaker 2>guys edu came me because you're of this same generation.

766
00:43:08.440 --> 00:43:10.440
<v Speaker 2>It seemed to me he was looking back as a

767
00:43:10.480 --> 00:43:14.159
<v Speaker 2>baby boomer and looking about all the destruction your generation

768
00:43:14.280 --> 00:43:18.760
<v Speaker 2>wrought on America and read John has failed to measure

769
00:43:18.840 --> 00:43:20.840
<v Speaker 2>up to the people from World War Two. He mentions

770
00:43:20.840 --> 00:43:26.360
<v Speaker 2>World War two several times. And he's hoping the doctor generation, Yeah,

771
00:43:26.360 --> 00:43:29.639
<v Speaker 2>and the generation that follows you restores the principles of

772
00:43:29.760 --> 00:43:33.079
<v Speaker 2>the And he's hoping for that. But he recognizes, not

773
00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:36.760
<v Speaker 2>explicit but I think implicitly that his generation is the

774
00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:39.800
<v Speaker 2>one that dropped the Declaration of Independence and attacks the

775
00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:42.920
<v Speaker 2>Constitution and you guys made a monk of everything.

776
00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:47.719
<v Speaker 4>I hear, by the way, all the time from from

777
00:43:48.239 --> 00:43:52.559
<v Speaker 4>younger people, teacher that I teach, and so on. And

778
00:43:53.320 --> 00:43:56.079
<v Speaker 4>it's very difficult if you talk about it in sort

779
00:43:56.119 --> 00:44:01.480
<v Speaker 4>of you know, massive terms to argue against the This

780
00:44:01.639 --> 00:44:06.280
<v Speaker 4>generation is self you know, they're self absorbed, they're narcissistic,

781
00:44:06.440 --> 00:44:10.760
<v Speaker 4>they're uh, you know, their pleasure seeking to the worst degree.

782
00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:17.000
<v Speaker 4>And so he's the fact that he is of that

783
00:44:17.119 --> 00:44:20.320
<v Speaker 4>generation and can criticize it, I think is also very important.

784
00:44:20.800 --> 00:44:24.559
<v Speaker 4>And there's a possibility, there is a possibility. It reminds

785
00:44:24.599 --> 00:44:26.519
<v Speaker 4>me a little bit when I read about that. You

786
00:44:26.559 --> 00:44:30.519
<v Speaker 4>know who I thought it was Michael J. Fox in

787
00:44:31.639 --> 00:44:34.840
<v Speaker 4>what was the name of that show, Family Family Ties.

788
00:44:35.239 --> 00:44:38.480
<v Speaker 4>You know what, when you know, so many years of

789
00:44:38.559 --> 00:44:40.880
<v Speaker 4>liberal politics and so on, and then then it's the

790
00:44:40.920 --> 00:44:43.840
<v Speaker 4>Reagan era and the parents of these god awful we're

791
00:44:43.880 --> 00:44:46.920
<v Speaker 4>not hippies and and you know, right, and and that

792
00:44:47.039 --> 00:44:49.400
<v Speaker 4>sort of reminded me of sort of appealing. There's a

793
00:44:49.440 --> 00:44:55.280
<v Speaker 4>possibility as generations flip, you know, that maybe these young

794
00:44:55.320 --> 00:44:58.840
<v Speaker 4>people actually can be saved, maybe they need to be reminded.

795
00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:03.159
<v Speaker 1>But well, you push one of you push one of

796
00:45:03.159 --> 00:45:05.159
<v Speaker 1>my pop culture buttons, because I always say the arc

797
00:45:05.199 --> 00:45:07.599
<v Speaker 1>of popular culture went from father Knows Best in the

798
00:45:07.639 --> 00:45:11.079
<v Speaker 1>fifties no to sixties, to Father knows Least be are

799
00:45:11.079 --> 00:45:13.599
<v Speaker 1>known as all in the family in the seventies. In

800
00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:16.960
<v Speaker 1>the eighties of Family Ties, Mike Stimock was succeeded by

801
00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:19.320
<v Speaker 1>Michael J. Fox's character who I don't remember what the

802
00:45:19.400 --> 00:45:21.920
<v Speaker 1>character's name, but right, he read the Wall Street Journals,

803
00:45:22.360 --> 00:45:29.480
<v Speaker 1>Alex was he read the Wall Street Journal or a

804
00:45:29.599 --> 00:45:33.360
<v Speaker 1>tie in quoted William Buckway. Right, that was sort of

805
00:45:33.440 --> 00:45:35.800
<v Speaker 1>interesting how that turned. Now we don't have sitcoms anymore

806
00:45:35.840 --> 00:45:38.559
<v Speaker 1>because Rob Long has been made obsolete and redundant.

807
00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:42.440
<v Speaker 4>Unfortunately, before you go to break though, because I don't sorry,

808
00:45:42.519 --> 00:45:44.760
<v Speaker 4>but really quickly, because you know what you are, you're

809
00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:49.840
<v Speaker 4>going to move on. I'm concerned watching The Man of

810
00:45:49.960 --> 00:45:51.119
<v Speaker 4>Sphere and.

811
00:45:52.559 --> 00:45:52.920
<v Speaker 2>You know, the.

812
00:45:53.840 --> 00:45:58.960
<v Speaker 4>Weird sort of alt right young men who are taking

813
00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:02.920
<v Speaker 4>things off into like the worst possible nonsense, and I

814
00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:06.119
<v Speaker 4>almost look at it as some kind of evil plot

815
00:46:06.440 --> 00:46:10.719
<v Speaker 4>to prevent that common sense that would otherwise be sort

816
00:46:10.760 --> 00:46:12.960
<v Speaker 4>of bubbling up in our young men today.

817
00:46:13.400 --> 00:46:15.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah that maybe, Yeah, that, John is why we need

818
00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:18.840
<v Speaker 1>to persuade Justice Thomas to follow the example of Cornell

819
00:46:18.840 --> 00:46:20.840
<v Speaker 1>West and do a rap album for these junk guys.

820
00:46:21.320 --> 00:46:24.960
<v Speaker 1>So did he actually do that? Yeah you didn't know that,

821
00:46:25.039 --> 00:46:27.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah he did, He really did that. He did. All right,

822
00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:29.679
<v Speaker 1>let's take a quick break and we'll come back with

823
00:46:29.719 --> 00:46:37.880
<v Speaker 1>our closing segment and don't go away. All right. A

824
00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:40.440
<v Speaker 1>lot of stuff in the news this week worth noting,

825
00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:43.360
<v Speaker 1>but the one that I think is potentially huge, maybe

826
00:46:43.400 --> 00:46:46.119
<v Speaker 1>not maybe strike potentially I think is huge is the

827
00:46:46.199 --> 00:46:49.480
<v Speaker 1>federal indictment of the Southern Poverty Law Center, which I've

828
00:46:49.519 --> 00:46:55.000
<v Speaker 1>long called the Southern Poverty Libel Center, and they've gotten

829
00:46:55.079 --> 00:46:59.719
<v Speaker 1>kid glove treatment from the media. Forever, any media organization

830
00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:02.400
<v Speaker 1>bought her to say, Gosh, I wonder if they're right

831
00:47:02.480 --> 00:47:05.440
<v Speaker 1>to say that, you know, the Alliance Defending Freedom as

832
00:47:05.480 --> 00:47:08.280
<v Speaker 1>a hate group. Maybe they went to the Washington Post

833
00:47:08.360 --> 00:47:11.280
<v Speaker 1>tentatively did that five or six years ago. And so

834
00:47:11.360 --> 00:47:13.639
<v Speaker 1>now the damn may break because I've known forever that

835
00:47:13.679 --> 00:47:16.480
<v Speaker 1>they're a corrupt bunch, and it may be worse than that.

836
00:47:16.559 --> 00:47:19.239
<v Speaker 1>So I'll stop there because I'll bet Lucretia has thoughts

837
00:47:19.280 --> 00:47:20.000
<v Speaker 1>on this story.

838
00:47:20.519 --> 00:47:23.559
<v Speaker 2>We can we verify before she goes whether Lucretia is

839
00:47:23.559 --> 00:47:26.519
<v Speaker 2>actually on the hate map, because I look and there

840
00:47:26.599 --> 00:47:30.159
<v Speaker 2>is a little little red bob way down to southand Arizona,

841
00:47:30.280 --> 00:47:32.719
<v Speaker 2>and I was like, you will hear her.

842
00:47:33.760 --> 00:47:36.039
<v Speaker 4>I do have an answer to that walk out? Start

843
00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:38.920
<v Speaker 4>with that. Before that, I want to remind you that

844
00:47:38.960 --> 00:47:41.159
<v Speaker 4>it was only it was less than a year ago

845
00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:45.480
<v Speaker 4>that the CEO or whatever of the Southern Poverty Law

846
00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:51.679
<v Speaker 4>Center was you know, as usual Swallwell, Caesar Chavas just

847
00:47:52.239 --> 00:47:55.840
<v Speaker 4>a typical leftist, treats women like you know what, et cetera,

848
00:47:55.880 --> 00:47:58.719
<v Speaker 4>et cetera, And that got barely anything. He got moved out,

849
00:47:58.760 --> 00:48:01.639
<v Speaker 4>they moved on, and you know, imagine if that had happened,

850
00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:05.519
<v Speaker 4>say at the Heritage Foundation, where the you know the

851
00:48:05.559 --> 00:48:09.840
<v Speaker 4>head of the Heritage Foundation had been mistreating women. And anyway,

852
00:48:10.639 --> 00:48:13.360
<v Speaker 4>So here's my little story which may explain the red one.

853
00:48:13.400 --> 00:48:15.719
<v Speaker 4>It's actually not about me, it's about my son. My

854
00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:19.920
<v Speaker 4>son was in a class in college that it was

855
00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:24.480
<v Speaker 4>actually immigration and refugee policy, was the US immigration and

856
00:48:24.559 --> 00:48:29.280
<v Speaker 4>refugee policy. And he wrote a paper and in his

857
00:48:29.559 --> 00:48:37.760
<v Speaker 4>paper he quoted something from Breitbart News. Oh, and the

858
00:48:38.360 --> 00:48:42.880
<v Speaker 4>instructor stood out and read and wrote, this is not

859
00:48:43.079 --> 00:48:48.559
<v Speaker 4>a legitimate news source and said, do you know what

860
00:48:48.679 --> 00:48:54.239
<v Speaker 4>they are? Something like what they're rated by the Southern

861
00:48:54.320 --> 00:48:59.159
<v Speaker 4>Poverty Law Center. Right, And he had to rewrite the

862
00:48:59.199 --> 00:49:03.800
<v Speaker 4>paper and take out the reference to Breitbart because Breitbart

863
00:49:03.880 --> 00:49:07.400
<v Speaker 4>was called a racist organization by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

864
00:49:07.480 --> 00:49:11.119
<v Speaker 4>There's my little explanation for that red dot down here.

865
00:49:11.679 --> 00:49:15.239
<v Speaker 2>Notice how she didn't answer the question whether she herself.

866
00:49:14.840 --> 00:49:20.559
<v Speaker 4>Is in I'd ask for more money.

867
00:49:21.039 --> 00:49:24.159
<v Speaker 1>I look, look, I know someone who is on the list.

868
00:49:24.159 --> 00:49:25.880
<v Speaker 1>I'll come back to that. We have a good question

869
00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:30.000
<v Speaker 1>from Ted, one of our Free correspondents. Yeah, well it's

870
00:49:30.039 --> 00:49:34.599
<v Speaker 1>in the love Chat. Why are no individuals indicted? And

871
00:49:34.639 --> 00:49:36.480
<v Speaker 1>I think maybe because they've left the I'm not sure,

872
00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:37.960
<v Speaker 1>do you know, John, or you probably don't know.

873
00:49:38.039 --> 00:49:41.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean, actually, it's harder to indict an organization criminally

874
00:49:41.480 --> 00:49:44.519
<v Speaker 2>than it is individual So that's actually more of a

875
00:49:44.559 --> 00:49:48.400
<v Speaker 2>signal that and maybe that's because the just upon is

876
00:49:48.440 --> 00:49:52.360
<v Speaker 2>trying to actually shut it down. If you indict individuals,

877
00:49:52.400 --> 00:49:54.840
<v Speaker 2>then often what a corporation would do is they just

878
00:49:54.880 --> 00:49:58.079
<v Speaker 2>all righties with the individual and the corporation keeps keeps

879
00:49:58.079 --> 00:50:01.480
<v Speaker 2>going on like it ever did. So yeah, yeah, this

880
00:50:01.639 --> 00:50:04.719
<v Speaker 2>is really an effort to bring down the whole, the

881
00:50:04.719 --> 00:50:06.519
<v Speaker 2>whole organization. And don't want to come.

882
00:50:06.519 --> 00:50:10.360
<v Speaker 4>Before before we go on, I want to point out,

883
00:50:10.440 --> 00:50:13.039
<v Speaker 4>just because the left has been so disingenuous about this

884
00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:15.559
<v Speaker 4>as usual, and that is the fact that it was

885
00:50:15.639 --> 00:50:18.360
<v Speaker 4>not the Justice Department who just sort of brought some

886
00:50:18.400 --> 00:50:23.559
<v Speaker 4>sort of presentment against them. An Alabama grand jury brought

887
00:50:23.719 --> 00:50:28.280
<v Speaker 4>these charges against the SPLC, not the Justice Department. The

888
00:50:28.360 --> 00:50:31.400
<v Speaker 4>Justice Department. I mean, so you can say that the

889
00:50:31.519 --> 00:50:34.480
<v Speaker 4>Justice Department and the Trump administration is going after these

890
00:50:34.519 --> 00:50:37.119
<v Speaker 4>people to hide their racism, and I guess you could

891
00:50:37.119 --> 00:50:41.280
<v Speaker 4>probably even say that the Alabama grand jury jurors are

892
00:50:41.440 --> 00:50:45.480
<v Speaker 4>also racist pigs who don't understand what a great organization

893
00:50:45.719 --> 00:50:48.360
<v Speaker 4>SPLC Isn't They don't understand that this is just like

894
00:50:48.480 --> 00:50:52.599
<v Speaker 4>when the Department of Justice puts or the FBI puts

895
00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:56.519
<v Speaker 4>confidential informants inside of an organization. Why are they getting

896
00:50:56.519 --> 00:50:57.519
<v Speaker 4>so upset about this?

897
00:50:57.760 --> 00:51:01.079
<v Speaker 1>Right, Well, the SPLC, it is not a law enforcement

898
00:51:01.119 --> 00:51:05.960
<v Speaker 1>agency first of all. That simple point. Look, I think, well,

899
00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:08.079
<v Speaker 1>we'll see where this all goes. We'll see what discovery

900
00:51:08.079 --> 00:51:09.400
<v Speaker 1>brings beause I'm sure there's going to be a lot

901
00:51:09.400 --> 00:51:09.519
<v Speaker 1>of this.

902
00:51:09.679 --> 00:51:11.559
<v Speaker 2>See if can I ask you something on you said

903
00:51:12.119 --> 00:51:15.239
<v Speaker 2>in one of our conversations that you were onto them

904
00:51:15.320 --> 00:51:18.519
<v Speaker 2>years and years ago. Yeah, right, How like, what are

905
00:51:18.559 --> 00:51:20.760
<v Speaker 2>the circumstances of that? How did you get on? How

906
00:51:20.760 --> 00:51:22.719
<v Speaker 2>did you figure out that they were this kind of

907
00:51:23.039 --> 00:51:26.880
<v Speaker 2>running this kind of fundraising scam essentially that's based in

908
00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:31.320
<v Speaker 2>making extremism worse. While before the Justice Department did.

909
00:51:31.480 --> 00:51:34.079
<v Speaker 1>Well, I never, I never, never thought it possible they

910
00:51:34.079 --> 00:51:37.599
<v Speaker 1>were doing false flag operations. Hold that thought for a moment. Well,

911
00:51:37.840 --> 00:51:40.280
<v Speaker 1>I mean there have been a few brave journalists, usually

912
00:51:40.280 --> 00:51:42.360
<v Speaker 1>with bright Bart News, who said, hey, wait a minute,

913
00:51:42.400 --> 00:51:44.880
<v Speaker 1>what's going on here? And you know, they have had

914
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:48.000
<v Speaker 1>a lot of scandals internally before they fired Morris D's

915
00:51:48.039 --> 00:51:50.480
<v Speaker 1>a couple of years ago. But it came to when

916
00:51:50.639 --> 00:51:52.559
<v Speaker 1>they put Charles Murray on the list. Now, of course

917
00:51:52.599 --> 00:51:54.599
<v Speaker 1>I know Charles very well and talked to him about this,

918
00:51:54.760 --> 00:51:57.480
<v Speaker 1>and he said, I thought about suing them for libel.

919
00:51:58.400 --> 00:52:01.000
<v Speaker 1>So the problem was they have such deep pockets. They

920
00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:03.280
<v Speaker 1>would put up ferocious resistance. They would draw it out

921
00:52:03.280 --> 00:52:06.599
<v Speaker 1>for years. They would make my life miserable with depositions

922
00:52:06.639 --> 00:52:09.280
<v Speaker 1>and discovery. On the backside, they'd want all my emails

923
00:52:09.320 --> 00:52:11.440
<v Speaker 1>with Dick Hernstein on the Bell Curve and so forth.

924
00:52:11.719 --> 00:52:15.000
<v Speaker 1>Or I'm sure there's nothing but and he said, but

925
00:52:15.159 --> 00:52:17.280
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to expend that much mental energy. I

926
00:52:17.320 --> 00:52:19.519
<v Speaker 1>don't want to have that anxiety for years just to

927
00:52:19.519 --> 00:52:21.880
<v Speaker 1>prove a point, even though he thought he could probably win,

928
00:52:21.960 --> 00:52:24.119
<v Speaker 1>and Libel lawyers told him he probably had a good case.

929
00:52:24.159 --> 00:52:28.440
<v Speaker 1>So it's things like that, Right, they've Charlie Kirk, right,

930
00:52:28.440 --> 00:52:30.599
<v Speaker 1>they said Charlie Kirk belonged to the hate app And

931
00:52:31.239 --> 00:52:34.119
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. I'm usually I'm cautious about these things,

932
00:52:34.119 --> 00:52:38.280
<v Speaker 1>but I'm totally comfortable with saying they are complicit in

933
00:52:38.400 --> 00:52:41.719
<v Speaker 1>creating a climate of hate that led to Charlie Kirk's murder.

934
00:52:41.760 --> 00:52:45.199
<v Speaker 1>That's probably demagogic, but they e fing deserve it, is

935
00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:45.599
<v Speaker 1>my view.

936
00:52:45.760 --> 00:52:48.719
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there was been a shooting at the Family

937
00:52:48.719 --> 00:52:51.679
<v Speaker 2>Research Oh yes, right, the sugar actually said I got

938
00:52:51.679 --> 00:52:55.280
<v Speaker 2>the name of this group from the such the hate hate.

939
00:52:56.199 --> 00:52:58.440
<v Speaker 1>I thought the Family Research Council could have sued them.

940
00:52:58.480 --> 00:53:00.360
<v Speaker 1>What they might have I'm not sure. But last point,

941
00:53:00.440 --> 00:53:02.400
<v Speaker 1>and I want to get your opinion on this, Lucretia,

942
00:53:02.400 --> 00:53:05.119
<v Speaker 1>because this is right down your rally. There's good evidence

943
00:53:05.119 --> 00:53:07.480
<v Speaker 1>that they are involved in paying somebody a lot of

944
00:53:07.480 --> 00:53:11.760
<v Speaker 1>money to help organize this famous, infamous Charlottesville Hey, Unite

945
00:53:11.800 --> 00:53:15.960
<v Speaker 1>the Right rally. And I'm wondering now, gosh, I wonder

946
00:53:16.119 --> 00:53:19.960
<v Speaker 1>if they had a hand in the events of January. Oh,

947
00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:22.079
<v Speaker 1>come on, I knew you were going to ruin it.

948
00:53:22.239 --> 00:53:27.280
<v Speaker 2>You found it so reasonable and oh, I'll do.

949
00:53:27.440 --> 00:53:29.760
<v Speaker 4>It to split the baby between the two of you.

950
00:53:29.920 --> 00:53:33.800
<v Speaker 4>And my answer so then I don't send John completely crazy.

951
00:53:34.280 --> 00:53:37.440
<v Speaker 4>That is that the one thing that we've learned from

952
00:53:37.719 --> 00:53:41.639
<v Speaker 4>the SPLC scandal, whatever you want to call it, is

953
00:53:41.679 --> 00:53:49.360
<v Speaker 4>that the supply of white supremacy racism in the United

954
00:53:49.440 --> 00:53:55.880
<v Speaker 4>States is much is entirely too small to fit the

955
00:53:56.000 --> 00:54:00.280
<v Speaker 4>need for finding white supremacy in the United States, and

956
00:54:01.840 --> 00:54:04.400
<v Speaker 4>you might I mean, you guys heard what Trump said

957
00:54:04.480 --> 00:54:07.320
<v Speaker 4>I think today, which was that if it turns out

958
00:54:07.360 --> 00:54:09.960
<v Speaker 4>that the SBLC was actually behind all of these things,

959
00:54:10.119 --> 00:54:13.159
<v Speaker 4>he is going to ask that, I don't know what

960
00:54:13.199 --> 00:54:15.800
<v Speaker 4>this means. I really don't know what this means. That

961
00:54:15.880 --> 00:54:22.559
<v Speaker 4>the twenty twenty election be considered illegitimate. You can't really

962
00:54:22.599 --> 00:54:24.880
<v Speaker 4>do that in my understanding. And again, even if it

963
00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:28.000
<v Speaker 4>turns out that everything the worst we think is true,

964
00:54:29.199 --> 00:54:32.440
<v Speaker 4>there are you know, there's things that happen that are

965
00:54:32.559 --> 00:54:35.400
<v Speaker 4>untrue that have effects on elections that you can't really

966
00:54:35.840 --> 00:54:39.679
<v Speaker 4>you know, that's the way they go, unfortunately. So you know,

967
00:54:39.719 --> 00:54:43.079
<v Speaker 4>I think Trump was just bloviating there, But it is

968
00:54:43.119 --> 00:54:47.920
<v Speaker 4>true that there's not enough racism to go around. And

969
00:54:48.679 --> 00:54:51.880
<v Speaker 4>that's literally what it comes down to. And all of

970
00:54:51.920 --> 00:54:57.800
<v Speaker 4>these channeling my Clarence Thomas, all of these civil rights pimps,

971
00:54:59.320 --> 00:55:05.920
<v Speaker 4>I recognize that without a continued supply of these horrible

972
00:55:06.119 --> 00:55:10.239
<v Speaker 4>racist incidents, which more and more often turned out to

973
00:55:10.280 --> 00:55:15.519
<v Speaker 4>be made up or manufactured, they've got no place. I mean,

974
00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:18.320
<v Speaker 4>DEI is already crumbling. How are they going to bring

975
00:55:18.360 --> 00:55:21.159
<v Speaker 4>it back when a new regime comes in, they've got

976
00:55:21.199 --> 00:55:26.360
<v Speaker 4>to have these white supremacists who are lurking underneath every corner.

977
00:55:26.840 --> 00:55:28.599
<v Speaker 4>I don't know what the right analogy is, but you

978
00:55:28.599 --> 00:55:29.719
<v Speaker 4>get my point, all.

979
00:55:29.719 --> 00:55:32.280
<v Speaker 1>Right, Lucretia, you get your Babylon Bees ready, while I

980
00:55:33.239 --> 00:55:36.360
<v Speaker 1>a last rhetorical question here, which is I wanted for

981
00:55:36.360 --> 00:55:39.039
<v Speaker 1>a long time? Also, John, how come there's no northern

982
00:55:39.079 --> 00:55:44.880
<v Speaker 1>poverty law centers? How come there's no Midwestern poverty law

983
00:55:44.920 --> 00:55:50.960
<v Speaker 1>center with a bunch of guys overalls, you know, Johan Omar,

984
00:55:50.960 --> 00:55:56.079
<v Speaker 1>it's an opportunity here. Is there's something special about southern poverty?

985
00:55:56.239 --> 00:55:58.039
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. It's I've always thought that was a

986
00:55:58.079 --> 00:55:59.320
<v Speaker 1>weird aspect.

987
00:55:58.880 --> 00:56:02.800
<v Speaker 4>Of this is ever a decent organization? I don't really know.

988
00:56:04.079 --> 00:56:07.119
<v Speaker 2>It started out with noble ideas that attack, you know,

989
00:56:07.920 --> 00:56:13.320
<v Speaker 2>attacking the KKK. But the KKKY, the society, as you

990
00:56:13.360 --> 00:56:16.039
<v Speaker 2>pointed out, succeeded in stamping out most of.

991
00:56:15.960 --> 00:56:18.880
<v Speaker 4>The David Duke didn't get elected to Congress.

992
00:56:19.079 --> 00:56:21.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a weird friend organization.

993
00:56:21.400 --> 00:56:24.599
<v Speaker 1>Now, yeah, they go back a long way. Okay, Lucretia,

994
00:56:24.599 --> 00:56:25.000
<v Speaker 1>you're up.

995
00:56:25.599 --> 00:56:30.679
<v Speaker 4>I'm up. Democrats. It's a picture of Schumer is just despicable.

996
00:56:30.800 --> 00:56:36.159
<v Speaker 4>I'm sorry that man. Oh anyway, now, Democrats devastated to

997
00:56:36.239 --> 00:56:39.199
<v Speaker 4>learn America less racist than they thought.

998
00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:41.199
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

999
00:56:42.519 --> 00:56:53.719
<v Speaker 4>After losing SPLC funding, KKK forced to buy rogues off team. Okay,

1000
00:56:53.840 --> 00:56:57.639
<v Speaker 4>so we didn't talk about it, but it's a great

1001
00:56:57.719 --> 00:57:00.719
<v Speaker 4>it's a map, and it's it's a great map and

1002
00:57:01.199 --> 00:57:04.679
<v Speaker 4>California's blue, Virginia's blue and blue line in between it says,

1003
00:57:05.079 --> 00:57:10.360
<v Speaker 4>too far gerrymandered. Virginia congressional map includes California.

1004
00:57:11.519 --> 00:57:14.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess it works better.

1005
00:57:14.239 --> 00:57:18.960
<v Speaker 4>If you can see it, right, yea? Oh sorry. Trump

1006
00:57:19.039 --> 00:57:22.760
<v Speaker 4>admin moves to legalize marijuana for those with a medical

1007
00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:29.360
<v Speaker 4>need or having to fly on Spirit airlines. O god

1008
00:57:29.559 --> 00:57:33.480
<v Speaker 4>right yeah, oh no, sorry, I get to the last

1009
00:57:33.519 --> 00:57:37.159
<v Speaker 4>page here. Crazy old guy is a picture of Biden.

1010
00:57:37.239 --> 00:57:39.719
<v Speaker 4>Crazy old guy at nursing home keeps telling people he

1011
00:57:39.880 --> 00:57:44.679
<v Speaker 4>was once the president. Have you been watching him lately?

1012
00:57:44.760 --> 00:57:51.360
<v Speaker 4>Oh my gosh, it's been out there. New evidence reveals

1013
00:57:51.599 --> 00:57:55.480
<v Speaker 4>Judas received his thirty pieces of silver from the SPLC.

1014
00:57:57.159 --> 00:58:01.519
<v Speaker 4>And then we didn't we we didn't talk about the

1015
00:58:01.719 --> 00:58:06.079
<v Speaker 4>polymarket nonsense. But this one's but everybody knows about it.

1016
00:58:06.119 --> 00:58:10.079
<v Speaker 4>This one's actually pretty funny. Nation on Edge after Soldier

1017
00:58:10.159 --> 00:58:15.280
<v Speaker 4>pledges fifty thousand polymarket bet that Trump will nw Goaran.

1018
00:58:17.519 --> 00:58:19.920
<v Speaker 1>Oh that is Oh that's almost worth doing.

1019
00:58:20.960 --> 00:58:24.159
<v Speaker 4>Right, Okay, one last one and I'm problems I've done.

1020
00:58:24.280 --> 00:58:29.280
<v Speaker 4>SBLC says funding KKK only three percent of what they do.

1021
00:58:31.960 --> 00:58:34.480
<v Speaker 1>Right. Oh yeah, you have to think about that from

1022
00:58:34.519 --> 00:58:35.639
<v Speaker 1>it before it really drops in.

1023
00:58:36.760 --> 00:58:39.559
<v Speaker 4>Right, Okay, I'm done. All right, John, nice to see everyone.

1024
00:58:40.360 --> 00:58:43.679
<v Speaker 2>Always drink your whiskey, need buy more books? And Steve,

1025
00:58:44.119 --> 00:58:45.079
<v Speaker 2>what do you have for us?

1026
00:58:45.199 --> 00:58:48.119
<v Speaker 1>An AI? IW No, I'm not doing AI anymore. I

1027
00:58:48.199 --> 00:58:50.079
<v Speaker 1>may come back to it, but I want to move

1028
00:58:50.119 --> 00:58:52.000
<v Speaker 1>it up. Well, I'm going to think about that, but

1029
00:58:52.039 --> 00:58:54.519
<v Speaker 1>instead we're just going to do a new formal ending.

1030
00:58:55.119 --> 00:58:57.360
<v Speaker 1>You've been listening to The Three Whiskey Happy Hour, the

1031
00:58:57.440 --> 00:59:02.000
<v Speaker 1>podcast devoted to single malts, say, gular metaphysics and advanced

1032
00:59:02.039 --> 00:59:06.360
<v Speaker 1>Sydney Sweeney's studies. We thank our sponsors, especially the Civitas

1033
00:59:06.400 --> 00:59:09.880
<v Speaker 1>Institute and our production host Ricochet dot Com. If you

1034
00:59:09.960 --> 00:59:12.280
<v Speaker 1>like our show, please leave a five star review on

1035
00:59:12.320 --> 00:59:15.679
<v Speaker 1>iTunes or Spotify or wherever you source your favorite podcasts.

1036
00:59:15.800 --> 00:59:19.039
<v Speaker 1>Helps us build our listeners. Send us your comments, but

1037
00:59:19.159 --> 00:59:22.039
<v Speaker 1>do please be nice to John and also your favorite

1038
00:59:22.039 --> 00:59:25.199
<v Speaker 1>whiskeys until next week for John and Lucretia. Bye bye

1039
00:59:25.239 --> 01:00:01.440
<v Speaker 1>for now, and we are out Ricochet. Join the conversation.