Speaker 1: What is up, Fellasi Goos, I am dan Fa Valley
coming at you with my certified fantabis cohost, mister Grant Hues.
Speaker 2: We apologize for the live stream delay to anyone who
was waiting.
Speaker 1: We were dealing and still are dealing with some tech issues,
so you might notice Grant's cameras a little different. The
mic settings are not what we would prefer. After we
finally I feel like got everything hammered out. What we're
reverting because technology hates us, but we're powering through anyway,
because look, no one's ever done NBA Western Conference Tiers
before immediately following.
Speaker 2: Like the the most busiest.
Speaker 1: Time of NBA free agency in the offseason, so we
felt like we would do something different that no one's
ever done before, and we just had to make sure
to get this out there. So Grant, after the stressful
about forty three minutes that you just had trying to
get everything right, how are you doing?
Speaker 3: Not at all annoyed, not super not into my rope.
I just want to make clear like this doesn't matter.
But I didn't change anything, I didn't mess with my setup,
and yet here we are so deeply frustrated. If I'm
gonna be honest with you.
Speaker 2: Losso, and I might say this a couple of times.
Speaker 1: If you're in the chat and you notice any mega
volume discrepancies, I will obviously fix this an audio later,
but I can try to fix it as best I
can live. We're dealing with you, guys don't need to know,
but just we're We're not doing this on purpose, is
all we shot out. Shout out to Grant for figuring
out some type of there's like books involved and shit
like there's some real life like the stuff we do
to put out.
Speaker 2: Content that no one else has put out before.
Speaker 1: But that's enough of me. Just lookhittting my shoulder, patting
us on the back, sir. As we talked about when
we did the Eastern Conference, go check that out.
Speaker 2: If you do not.
Speaker 1: Is there anything any either, like something you kept specifically
in mind. How did some of the unsettled free agency
stuff impact how you viewed teams at all? Is or
just any just overarching notes we need to lay down
before we dig into the to the muck.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think I would refer back to what
we talked about on the East, but I would say,
like we're taking these teams as they are, so there
are some that maybe there's a move or two to
be made that everybody expects them to make, but it
hasn't happened yet. I'm not really assuming those are definite,
Like just the Warriors, like, oh, they've been were rumored
to get Al Horford for example, hasn't happened. Who knows
if it will happen. I'm just kind of taking them
as they are at the moment. There aren't too many
cases like that, but that's the only sort of caveat.
I guess maybe there is some flexibility with these. There
should be. It's like mid July and we're tiering conferences,
so things could change obviously, But yeah, just to reiterate,
we're just looking at I don't know, you correct me
if you kind of think of it differently at all,
but we're looking at sort of the proxy for like
how we think the conference standings are going to look
at the end of the season. That's really hard because
we are going to just talk about like ranges and
ceilings and floors. But that's also a pretty good stand
in for you know, who's got the most championship equity,
And I think we can note it where you know,
if this team is actually in a tier, you know,
a second tier team or something, but we think maybe
there's a third tier team that might actually have a
better title shot. Like we have to kind of juggle that.
That's been kind of the tricky part, but you know,
we're just doing rankings and tiers. It's not that complicated really,
we don't need to overthink it beyond that.
Speaker 2: Wow way to just throw away all of our hard work.
Speaker 1: And the final note we have is we each get
one veto sure if we did last time, and we're
hoping that Grant will use this, so we're alternate. We'll
go through it by tier, but we're alternate. When Grant
picks the team to go into your f there'll be
six tiers. As always, we want to know your thoughts
in the comment if you have questions, we'll try to
get to them throughout. And again, if you're having any
volume issues live, like if there's a discrepancy in what
the mics are sounding or this is unnavigable for you,
let us know. We'll try and fix it the best
that we can. But I think with that, and we're
gonna have a blake screen for a second, because Grant
was in and out so many times that he probably
got booted from the stage.
Speaker 2: I'm got to throw on.
Speaker 1: We're going to begin with the F tier, So grant
you're back. I scared for like a little laughing hint
in the chat tier Utah Jazz. Hey, they don't yet
you Wrong're not wrong. I like Austin ahe kind of
gaming about we're not gonna tank, but we're just gonna
be so bad that even when we try to wait
in that it's not gonna work out either.
Speaker 4: That's how you end up in your own tier at
the very bottom.
Speaker 3: This is the Utah Jazz loan loan proprietors of Tier F.
Unless you feel differently and want an exercise a veto
right away, I dare you use it all the way
down here? What a waste.
Speaker 1: That's what's tough about the vito, by the way, is
you have to consider when to use it.
Speaker 3: It's it's not unlike a coach's challenge. Do you burn
it in the first quarter or do you wait for
a high leverage moment. I think I think you gotta wait.
You could throw up to three teams I think in
a tier with the Jazz if you really wanted to uh,
I not have.
Speaker 4: Six tiers for example, Like, but do.
Speaker 3: You think it's fair to have Utah like a loan
in a tier of one at the bottom. Do you
think the Jazz are different enough from just say the
next handful or I think it's three teams two or
three we're gonna discuss.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they've telled there. Look, there's only one
team in the Western Conference trying to lose next year,
or at least doesn't think that they're trying to lose
shout out to the Pelicans.
Speaker 2: Maybe, But so I think that the Jazz clearly need
to blow.
Speaker 1: I don't know what would be the case, Like, if
there's a team that's as bad as the Jazz next year,
it's unintentional. And so if we read the tiers midseason,
that's where we'd put them in. How do you grapple though,
with Utah to give them some actual shine? First, I
think this is the right decision because they're still looking
for You can get mad that they haven't found their
best player of the future. That's not going to change
the fact, like maybe they have Ace Bailey in it,
but you could be mad that they didn't find him before.
Now the reality of this situation is what they're doing
at this moment is their best shot at finding that
player by one kind of giving the ball to Ace
Balley and then two like maximizing their lottery odds for
next year.
Speaker 2: And they do.
Speaker 1: They're pick technically O to OKAC if it falls in
the top eight. But when you're looking at this team,
what are you kind of actually watching for?
Speaker 2: Is it just okay? Well? How good is as Bailey?
Is he potentially the guy?
Speaker 1: Or is there just any anything more about the direction
or maybe certain players or a grouping of players that
that intrigues you.
Speaker 3: I think in general your one I there's two kinds
of things. I guess one is the emergence of a
cornerstone type that's that's become such a broken record at
this point, it's been three years of a rebuild. They
don't have that guy. That's why the Bailey pick made sense.
It was a high risk, high reward kind of play,
which you just have to make if you've been in
this sort of cycle for as long as the Jazz
have without getting someone that you could point to as
you know, he's he's gonna be. He's got an all
star ceiling, even we're not even talking like best player
on a championship team, like that's we're going to try
to work up to that if if you're the Jazz.
So there's that aspect of it, and that has to
center on Bailey, I, you know, and then I I
guess it's just the guys that fit around that. Like
I still think Taylor Hendrix is someone not not as
like a super duper star, but is he someone that
becomes like the Aaron Gordon of the jazz type of thing?
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: It's things like that. And then you're looking at Collier
and George. Are either of them gonna, you know, prove
themselves to be first unit guards on a good team?
Long way to go there? And then there's a Lori
market And the second thing is like where does he fit?
Can he pump up his trade value? Is trading him
the plan? That's kind of the separate aspect to consider
with the Jazz.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Larry market and stuff's interesting because it's I
think he's not untouchable despite what they say about.
Speaker 2: Him being a cornerstone.
Speaker 1: But you don't just the timeline that you're on, you
don't just trade him for anything because he makes a
lot of money. You already look, you got rid of
a bunch of the other older dudes, so I'd echo
everything you say there. I do think obviously want to
see what as Bailey is, but I think I might
just be most excited to be like, Okay, it's Taylor
Hendrick's healthy, and what does he look like? Kyle Philipowski
had some exciting moments in Summer League too. I'm also
kind of wondering the glutt of just sort of like
they cleared it up a little bit by getting rid
of Collins, but the Philipowski, Hendrix, Walker Kessler of it all,
like can you play those three together? And Lowry market
In is there, like how do you sort of game
that can any one of them aside from Lowry play
the three? But I like, I lovel Hardy as a
head coach that he'll try some creative things. But this team, yeah,
they're I think they're right to belong in a tier
all their own, which means grant that we can.
Speaker 2: Move up to tiered. Move up to that's so insulting,
but it's Tier D.
Speaker 1: And so the first team that I'm gonna put in
Tier D is let's go with the Phoenix suns here.
I think, I think that's the play. They did extend
Devin Booker and they also bought out Bradley Bual and
then you know that's basically it, like they drafted Capmint mallawatch,
they traded Kevin Durant.
Speaker 2: Wow, I didn't even mention that.
Speaker 1: You look at this team and I don't actually can
we talk about the the Bradley Beal the Devin Booker
stuff before getting into I don't have an issue with
them extending Devin Booker. They gave him a player option,
so I think you can say, as an organization, if
you were ready to move on or worry about hurting
his trade value, you wouldn't.
Speaker 2: Give him that extension.
Speaker 1: But like, you just don't have anything other than Devin
Booker in place right now, so I understand why you
pay him to keep him happy. And they're like that
deal could still be moved later. This runs through like
his age thirty two, age thirty three season, whatever it is.
I thought I found the reaction to it like kind
of funny, like, well, I don't view it. Maybe it's
not going to be the best contract by the end,
but what else did you want the Sons to do.
What I actually take more of an issue with is
that you're clearly headed nowhere in the near term. There
probably were other ways for you to get out of
the second apron. I know, we saw all the money
that Matt HBO was able to save by the Bradley
Beal buyout and wave and stretch. Unless you have like
some other move lined up that you think is going
to significantly elevate your team, you should have just bit
the bullet and let this contract run its course.
Speaker 2: Because I don't like the way it was framed.
Speaker 1: As they open up all this flexibility to the unfreeze
future draft picks, and I get it, but again, you
could have figured out other ways to get out of
the second apron, and then beyond that, if you're not
planning on being good, the functional limitations don't mean shit.
Speaker 2: Do you know what this becomes about?
Speaker 1: It becomes about saving money, And so Matt Ishbia like
the guy, like this guy who's willing to spend. I
understand the team's not good enough to justify paying that much,
but you just have like twenty million dollars on your
books in dead money for the next half decade. They
are going to pay an average of forty five plus
percent of the salary cap or the next half decade
to Beil and Devin Booker, and only one of them
plays for the Phoenix Suns. And so I find that
incredibly uninspiring, incredibly short sighted, which kind of fits the
motif of everything that's happened under Matt Ishbia since he
took the reins.
Speaker 2: Of this organization.
Speaker 3: So you just did what I always do with the Suns,
which is I can't look past the sort of like
general fuckery of the last couple of years and like
how it's ruined them going forward. And like I agree
with everything you said, except like I didn't love the
Booker extension just because, like just why you have three
more years? Like what's the like is it to make
him happy? Do you? I don't know how it affects
his trade value. I mean it's it's really just one
more guaranteed year. But what I wanted to say, I'll
throw it to you, but I just want to say,
like I have a hard time just answering the question
of how good is this team next year, because it's
like the tenth thing I think about when I think
about the Suns, because it's I'm annoyed by Ishbiah and
I they keep doing all this dumb stuff and that,
you know, the beal By Like we got to have
at some point in conversation just about how good this
team actually is on the floor next year, because that's
sort of what we're doing here. But I think we're
telegraphing how good the answer to that because they're just
in a tier narrowly above the jazz.
Speaker 4: But do you you get caught up in that too, right?
Do you catch yourself doing that?
Speaker 2: I do it all the time.
Speaker 3: I can't just think of the Suns the battle.
Speaker 1: They're inextricably tied together because when you're talking about the moves,
they like, what is the okay? All this flexibility that
it opened up? What is the plan here? And wouldn't
have been more beneficial to figure out another way to
get out of the second aprin Maybe you have to
wave and stretch other people at smaller amounts over the
next five years. Like if you think you can't just
trade a Royce O'Neil into another team's cap space, they
sorry mid level except or I don't know, maybe the
Nests would be like, yeah, we could totally trade him
for seconds, like you could come into our cap space
reunite with Royce O'Neil, Like, that's that's what I You're right,
I can't get past it. But when you look at
the actual basketball team doesn't. So they went from having
and they still do. But unless you think that Jalen
Green or Dylan Brooks is gonna make this monumental leap
as a playmaker like they could, they need a floor
general in here, and I'm higher on Devin Booker as
a playmaker than most, But when you look at the
bigs that they have in Malawatch, Mark Williams, Nick Richards,
they need like an organizer and like someone who's really
schooled and throwing all these lobs. And it can't just
be Devin Booker to me. And so this felt I
know everyone, and maybe it'll break while we're doing this.
Has CP three still going to the Clippers to reunite
with James Harden and be their what their their fourth
guard or their third guard?
Speaker 2: Weird?
Speaker 1: But like, if he's not gonna go to the Clippers,
like this seems like a no brainer just to bring
him back to Phoenix. I saw some people like, well
he wants to start and we don't know if we will,
who the fuck cares bring Jalen Green off the bench
if you have any or or bring Dylan Brooks off,
You're not gonna be good anyway.
Speaker 2: Like at least get.
Speaker 1: Someone in who's gonna help you groom your bigs moving forward.
So that's my thoughts on the Sun's the basketball team.
Is there still some younger players? I like in Ryan Dunn,
I'm actually not really a malawatch guy, but it's just
so early on his development. I love OsO Wigodaro so
lean into that more. I just I know Beal had
become toxic and kind of one of the harbingers of
everything the Suns did wrong. But you can't make that
move and then like your biggest move after that is like, hey,
we were mentioned in the Jonathan Comingus sweepstakes that we
have no way of pulling off.
Speaker 2: Like that just can't be it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I think like part of the reason we
both I'll just use use I s since I feel
like I do it the most. Fixate on I don't
know the bigger picture Suns things is like that the
roster itself is like I don't know, there's You've got
Devin Booker and I don't know.
Speaker 4: Maybe Jalen Green pops.
Speaker 3: Delan Brooks will defend. You've got three conventional centers if
you include Malawatch, which kind of buries a Gudaro, which
I don't love, and then Grayson Allen and O'Neil are
kind of meh. So like, I just don't see like
they're gonna try to win. But what do you think,
like the upper limit of their win total is, like
can they win forty five? Like if everything goes right
or is even that.
Speaker 4: Just way too long?
Speaker 3: I like, if Booker's all NBA second team plays, you know,
stays healthy, and then I don't know, just Brooks and
Jalen Green are what they were last year?
Speaker 4: Is there a way to like a sixth seed or anything?
Speaker 1: No, they're not not a six seed, like if you
they were in the plane or maybe they were slight
like forty two and forty maybe, but like without some
type Like I just what is the theory of this
team right now? And obviously we don't know enough about
jor not as a head coach, so maybe that it
feels like the offense will be more inventive, but we
don't know the theory of this team. And when you
look at. I mean, we're not like we're not talking
about these other teams. There's a lot of other good
teams in the West as far as I'm concerned, like
the top six or seven spots just might already be
spoken for.
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, I kind of I feel like, so I'm
gonna throw you a curveball because I did update my
tiers without telling you that I have two more teams
in the same tier. Uh. And they they line up
with the Suns in that like they're real NBA players
on the roster. There's some upside, but there's like a
sense of hopelessness that sort of like just like wingers
is like hanging over them. That just feels like they
belong here. So I'm gonna nominate another team. I'm gonna nominate. Uh,
let's see which of the two to A. I'll give
you the one you expect, which is the Sacramento Kings.
Speaker 1: I I'm actually excited that you made some changes because
I feel like I was gonna have to use one of.
Speaker 2: My vetos with the way you had some stuff. This
was from behind in the sell.
Speaker 1: They're fucked. Only winner is Booker. We can cars around
these parts. You don't need to bleep out any of
the vowels just.
Speaker 2: To make it to make a child for them.
Speaker 3: Uh So, the Kings just like, unless you're a real
big believer in Dennis Shrewder nine teams in twelve years
as just a high end starter. They don't have a
point guard. They can use Malik Monk. They can hope Devin.
Speaker 4: Carter develops there.
Speaker 3: They can run more stuff through Sabonis. But Sabonis is
going to be overtaxed again because they trade away Yonas Valanciunas,
and he was like the first decent backup center they'd
had in a long time. So other than Keegan Murray,
we don't love the Wings. I guess Kean Ellis qualifies.
Speaker 2: But they're just looking good.
Speaker 3: Sure, I mean I think I think they're a good
bet to be a high thirties win maybe, But there's
real downside here if the Sabonish, I don't know, per
potential dissatisfaction comes to a head, because then you're just
a totally identity identity list team. If Sabonis isn't on
this team. Uh So, yeah, I just don't see a
ton of upside. We haven't even mentioned DeRozan and Levine.
But those guys are just they are why a team
like the Kings and formally the Bulls are just capped
at a certain level. And so uh, I think you
price in the significant downsides here, the sort of nonsensical ownership, management,
coaching situation, and it's just it's easier to see this
going real bad than real good.
Speaker 1: I guess is where I don't you keep looking at
their roster and find yourself thinking there's no way their
offseason can be done.
Speaker 2: That's That's where I'm att with it.
Speaker 1: You talk about not being able to get past Phoenix's moves,
I can't get past like Sacramento's lack of moves other
than Denis Shrewder. It just doesn't what is the theory
of this team? And I think you know, we can
sit here and criticize them as we should, or at
least say like I don't know that they belong and
like you could probably yeah, you could talk yourself and
it be like, oh, hey, should they be in the
CETI are awesome, That's not like, that's not where you
want to be when you have Zach Lavine and Domas
Sabonis making like almost one hundred million dollars together.
Speaker 2: So I don't. I don't.
Speaker 1: This is another team where I don't understand the theory
of what it's supposed to look like. And I think
that because you have a bunch of good secondary creators,
like you know, this is like a really bad landing
spot for Dennis shooter act actually because I think that
he's better if he can have the ball and there's
gonna be everyone to go play off of him with
like the Rosan and then Levine playing off of him. Okay, fine,
but like there's some interplay between him and Sibonis, but
sure is not the best shooter and the King's just
like not a lot of intuitive guys away like of
their primaries away from the ball, not as as seamless
a fit as it was next to Kate Cunningham on
a team that didn't have j and Ivy. So but
I also so I sit here and I look at
it and like they deserve all the criticism because they
put themselves here. I don't know what they do, Like
we could sit here. It's not just like they could
maybe need Clifford Pops. You still have Keon Ellis, Like
you could talk me into them needing a wing in
addition to a point guard, they still need a backup five.
Speaker 2: Like, that's too many needs for July eighteenth. As we're
recording this.
Speaker 3: It's too many needs and it's the number of needs
and the severity of those needs is made worse by
the questions you have to ask about. Like they're like
the pillars here, Like I mean, Demarta Rosen has defied
aging forever. This is gonna be his age thirty six season,
and he's you know, I don't know that he's making
anybody better. And zach Lavine comes with all the defensive
questions and he's that you mentioned like not a lot
of intuitive passers, Like, yeah, that's that's zach Lavine. That's
like point bullet point number two on the scouting report.
Probably you know, I like Malik Monk, but I like
him as a six man, and.
Speaker 2: I forgot about him while we were talking a lot.
Speaker 3: And right like Sibonis gets the numbers. My my stance
on Sabonis is well documented.
Speaker 1: I just like, carry on, poor Kean Murray, poor guy.
Speaker 3: Uh, It's it's tough, okay.
Speaker 1: So is there some like an maybe even archetype of player,
if you have a name, where'd be like, Oh, they
went out and got that kind of player, you'd feel
a little bit better about bumping them up to because
if you get into the Sea Tier in the Western Conference,
you're probably fringe top six at that point, right, or
at least have a case to get in there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, there's a big chunk of teams we're
gonna get to in the Sea tier that.
Speaker 1: What do you like, Oh, you know, I'm sorry, this
is what do you think of them being linked to
Jonathan kaminga What do you think of that fit?
Speaker 3: It feels on brand and kind of a lot of
the worst ways to me, just because he like him
with DeRozan and Levine is just like get you're gonna
that offense is just gonna be so bereft of like
good cutting and off ball stuff, and like the help
defense on that team will just be abysmal. Like he
I get it from the stance of like this, he's
kind of a by low maybe and like you should
take a shot on him. He's still very young. If
you're a team like the Kings that just doesn't really
have a young guy you could project forward as a
as a high end starter or Murray's probably that or
as a star. But he just doesn't address a single
thing that that they you know that that's wrong with
the roster other than like positionally, I guess like his body,
his body type, his frame is like, yeah, it'd be
good to have here, But in terms of how he
actually plays, I just don't see that helping at all.
Speaker 2: I think he off you skate.
Speaker 1: If you're worried about Kegan Murray's place in the offense now,
I think that he would only come like presumably Malik
Monk would be going out as part of a sign
and trade.
Speaker 2: But I don't I really think that this.
Speaker 1: I don't want to use the word ruins, But like
if you were hoping for Keigan Murray to make strides
on the offensive end, I think adding Johnathan Kaminga onto
a team with that'll still have to Roseen Leven and
I just use a bonus as someone who can elevate
the play of other stuff. But like just all of
those guys together, Chigan Murray's role is going to become
even more opaque.
Speaker 3: Right, I mean, if you wanted to, I would be
more amenable to Kaminga on the Kings if DeRozan and
Levigne weren't there, and then you could be like, let's
just see what Murray and Kaminga can be as like
these are our big these are our combo forwards going forward.
We'll put the ball in Kaminga's hands and just kind
of see what happens, and then maybe Murray moves. You know,
isn't so far down the pecking order just because you've
gotten rid of a couple of high usage scorers. So
uh yeah, both Yeah, insert more stake pulls west.
Speaker 4: That's what it is they have to trade for.
Speaker 2: What do they get this year? Though? Is it going
to be Patrick Williams or Nicola Vucevic?
Speaker 3: I mean, maybe they figure out a way to fire
an offer sheet at Josh Giddy and.
Speaker 1: Just great call from Zach Holland said, didn't Sabona say
something about wanting a point guard?
Speaker 2: Fuck that, let's over baber Kaminga. That is like what
he asked for, right.
Speaker 1: He did mention that they needed a point guard and
that like den I guess Dennis Shruter is a point guard,
but it's just I don't know, I don't trust him
to run your half court offense.
Speaker 2: Against like really good defenses and.
Speaker 1: Just his mindset sometimes if like there's gonna be a
ton of I think overlap in Sacramento. And I'm not
saying go out and go all in on a point,
but I just they have a bunch of to me,
there's aside from some bonus, is still their best playmaker
to me, and it's not even close. They don't have
any from the perimeter spots. Do they even have, Like
that's probably an insult. In Martin Ros they have like
maybe one B plus passer from like there's no A
passers in the perimeter spots right now.
Speaker 3: No, I mean monk Monk had a moment there where
I think he had a great, like a super high
assist rate on drives and he was just piling that
up playing crunch time minutes. That might have been two
years ago now I can't even remember. But yeah, he's
not He's not the guy that's like, I mean, we're
spoiled seeing guys like Haliburton in the playoffs, but the
guy like manipulating the defense to make like the wrong
pass the right one, like he's monk Unk will beat
his guy and see the strong side corner shooter open,
but or like maybe a drop off pass to the roller.
But like he's not. He's not like a bend the
defense with your brain kind of pastor, and those guys
are rare. But the Kings definitely don't have.
Speaker 1: So the final team here, can I take a guess
as to who you have and then who I was
going to advocate to be here? Yes, it is the
Pelicans and they should be at the bottom of this tier.
Speaker 3: I have no argument against that. Well, here's the argument.
Speaker 2: You can be an argument for having them up a
tier like you initially did.
Speaker 3: No. Well, yeah, so the argument for either moving them
to the top of this tier, which doesn't really matter,
or having them up one is essentially like, there's a
healthy version of this team whose offense is like pretty awesome.
If like somehow Jordan Poole and Trey Murphy and Zion
like work well together, there's a lot of punch there.
And then if Herb Jones is healthy, maybe you get
some defense. We don't love the center position because Kevon
Looney and Zion or or I just don't see how
that works. And then Eve mecI is a nice player,
but I just I'm not seeing him being a massive offensive. Plus,
you're not gonna have the Jon Saint Murray for I
don't know, do we have reports on that most of
the year.
Speaker 1: Probably, I mean I think, well, and yeah, they have
no in they have no incentive to be worse. So
if he's ready to come back, you might as well
bring him.
Speaker 3: Back, right, So that's part of That's the other part
of the argument is they did trade that pickaway and
what I think everyone agrees was the stupidest.
Speaker 1: Movie, which is, can I say one thing about that?
There's no reason to steer into right, you're correct, and
I think it.
Speaker 2: Was a terrible move.
Speaker 1: Still, it's a bummer because just as someone who doesn't
cover the draft guys much until they come out of
the draft, I think Derek Queen is going to be fantastic,
But I don't know what he needs to be out
of the gate for that trade to make any sort
of sense. Still, which is, and I also don't, to
kind of add to what you were saying, I don't
know what the theory of him and Zion together is,
and like, you can't play two of them with a
like unless there's a floor stretching big there that they
haven't acquired yet, like that, what does the defense look
like if it's Zion on and Derek Queen as your
front court so to have like what might be your
best prospect now because Trey Murphy's graduated from.
Speaker 2: The prospect uh, and yeah, he's just the right and.
Speaker 1: Like I officially I view Derek Queen as the higher
end prospect than Jeremiah Fears, which is funny because just
where they were drafted, Like if your best most important
prospect doesn't fit with your best player, I don't I
don't know how to square all that away. And maybe
there's just maybe there are things Willie Green and the
Pelicans will do that I just can't envision right now.
But I was kind of surprised that you because presumably
unless you you know what honestly would have been the
most I thought this was the case you were gonna make,
because I tried to sit here and think about, well,
what what is he thinking here? Was I thought you
were gonna say, well, they're just not gonna play Jeremiah
Fears and Derek Queen that much, because that might be
the pathway to that because rookies just go through growing pains,
and just you have Jordan Poole, so there's like some him.
Speaker 2: And Jeremiah Fears together can be weird. I assume you're
not gonna play them together.
Speaker 1: All that much, so I don't like there's a chance.
I think the Pelicans are probably gonna be closer by
the end of the season to the Jazz is tier.
Speaker 2: Then they won't be to tearc.
Speaker 3: Totally totally on the table. Like if Zion misses time,
which we should say when he misses time, they're going
to be drawing dead most nights. So yeah, like the
downside is jazz level probably also, just like you sort
of now there's the wild card of like what what
else might this front office do? You know, like what
Welch Troy Reavers had interested in the past, and that
could probably like we'll figure figure it out. Yeah, So
just to jump back to the Queen, it sucks whenever
a player is in the position Derek Queen is in
where it's like, well, you have to justify some guys
in suits, dumb decision. You didn't ask for this, but
here you are. I think even if he is, like
if he's the best player in this draft class, I'm
still not going to give the Pelicans a pass because
you just take him over Jeremiah Fears. They they broadcast
that we think Jeremiah Fears is a bet, so you
better prospect. We took him six spots ahead of Derek Queen,
so like you don't get to say, oh, we knew
Queen was this all along? No, you like you liked
him clearly because you traded stupid stuff to move up,
but ten spots.
Speaker 1: If Derek Queen becomes great, it's so funny too. It
wasn't just like an extra pick ten spots.
Speaker 4: It was to move up ten spots.
Speaker 3: Take take Queen where you took Fears if you think
he's that great, and hold on to that twenty six first,
and maybe Fears falls to you and maybe you can
give up less to get Fears at thirteen or whatever,
like you.
Speaker 2: Know what I mean.
Speaker 4: Like it, Even if Queen is great.
Speaker 3: That's not gonna absolve the Pelicans to me, because they
could have just drafted him and not given up the pick. Yeah, anyway,
color me concerned about Jeremiah Fears hitting threes after what
I've seen in Summer League too. I know it's like
the so better passer than iakad division, so that might
be fun for them. I what is, what's the number
of games Zion would have to play in for you
to be like, oh, this team is gonna be a
lot better than expected, is it.
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna throw a number at you. I'm gonna say,
Zion plays in sixty.
Speaker 3: I was gonna say sixty five. So we're in the
same neighborhood. Like yeah, if he if he's healthy and
is playing, you know, near the level where he's played
when healthy in the past, for that many games, that's
when the offense is just gonna be very good, right
like when he's on the floor, he's demonstrated that that's
what happens if he's healthy and consistently performing well. I
don't know what i'd put my actual over under on
games played for him is. And then that even presupposes
that you're not having injury issues elsewhere, which like given
what we know about like how this organization has handled injuries,
and it's like staffing, like this is one of the
teams you might actually want to expect like worse injury
luck than than even Trey Murphy's unmanned.
Speaker 2: Up a lot. That's it, by the way, That's the
other thing.
Speaker 1: And I still have hoped that, but like I wanted
to see more of Trey Murphy on the ball.
Speaker 2: And now I look at this roster with Zion.
Speaker 1: And Queen and Jordan Poole and Jeremiah Fears, and I'm like,
all right, so probably not.
Speaker 2: I guess probably not.
Speaker 3: Yeah right, yeah, So that I that ends this tier
for me, unless you had somebody else that you want,
that you want to excited.
Speaker 1: And my veto was coming for the pen and I
was gonna know that I was gonna regret at that early.
So I'm ready to move on to your You have
the first pick in Tears.
Speaker 3: All right, let's so there's like I almost wanted to
mess with I did mess with this one. Actually I
moved somebody higher out of it. Uh, let's go with
the Blazers here. They're not necessarily the top team in
this year. We can sort of move things around if
we want to. Actually, they're I think they're definitely not
the top team in this year, but close enough. Uh.
That's the idea of Tears, so uh ambitious going and
getting Drew Holliday, Uh, trading a younger, cheaper guy in
Anthony Simons for him. Uh Holiday, I think that move
to me mirrored And I've written this several times. The
it's not like a one to one comparison obviously, but
the move to give up the pick that became Bub
Carrington for Danny Avdia. It's like, oh, you guys, are
you maybe think you're a little farther along than you
are And then they go on or run late last
year so maybe they were.
Speaker 2: Like the first twenty one or whatever games or so.
Speaker 3: Adia was awesome down the stretch, so validated there. I'd
rather have.
Speaker 4: Danny Avdia, I think, than Bub Carrington.
Speaker 3: I'm ovidyapilled though, so whatever. Yeah, pels off season throwing spaghetti.
Speaker 2: Have you ever done that?
Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, to see if it sticks?
Speaker 2: Really, so I should try.
Speaker 1: I don't really eat pasta, but you're does it work with?
It has to be spaghetti.
Speaker 2: I guess there canna be any pasta I think you.
Speaker 3: I think the spaghetti probably sticks better than like, I
don't know, a ravioli.
Speaker 2: There's like cheese, because I'm throwing the ravioli at it. Okay.
Speaker 3: There's also other ways to tell if your pasta is
done that don't involve no I want.
Speaker 2: I want to try this now?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Do it?
Speaker 3: Pelicans are doing it?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I like the Blazers a lot, and I think a
lot hinges on how much better or to shade and
sharp get clinging? Uh, it's too moni kamaraw Really this
guy if he is like man, you're you're set at
forwards with him in obvia and just is Scoot gonna
take another step? I think there's enough reasons to expect
improvement in house plus you at holiday. Uh that like
this is the Blazers and the teams in this tier
are very much like I don't expect the top six finish,
but like that's that's on the table if everything breaks
right and you get you know, some bad luck for
a couple of other teams, do you guess?
Speaker 1: And so some things that I would add to the
So the I'm all over on the pronunciation. I like
that they're trying to call him young handsome for Yon Hansom.
Speaker 2: Yeah I heard that.
Speaker 4: So that's my favorite.
Speaker 2: That's hansomes are great.
Speaker 1: Do you think that there's room just for sint We're
really going off the rails. Thank you Blazers for a
couple of tangents. Uh, they like should the syntax be
young and handsome or should it just be young handsome?
Speaker 3: Young handsome? It's like it's like a cool It's like
young Jezy, except it's young handsome. It's like, that's a
great rap.
Speaker 2: He's really like watching him.
Speaker 1: It's just like what if Zach Edy was Doma Sabonis.
That's the vibes I get from him. I know everyone's
to compare him to Yo Kitchen.
Speaker 2: I just don't like.
Speaker 1: That's just yeah, feels like a little too that's just
a little too far. I feel like, what if Zach
Edy was Doma Sabonis is like totally fair.
Speaker 2: That's not increasing expectations.
Speaker 1: What's interesting about this team is I could see it
going in either direction because like there's a chance of
just not as good last year, especially if some of
the West is just like healthier, Like even if it's
just oh there's not there's not a different maybe top
six or eight, but it's also those top six are
eight could just be a lot better than they were
last year. When you look at Denver, maybe Minnesota gets
a little bit of Houston is certainly somehow better after
finishing second last year. Memphis could be healthier. I think
the defense should still be pretty terrifying. That what I also,
I'm a big believer in Tamani Kamara the defense with him,
Denny Avia, Donovan Klinging, having a bunch of those guys.
I'm also looking at this roster though, and like my
got we know where some of the shooting's gonna come
from in twenty twenty six, twenty twenty seven thanks to
Dame coming back. I'd like that's another thing that kind
of telegraphs even if you think the Blazers are okay,
not being great this year, like you now now you've decided, oh,
we're gonna be really good assuming Dame is there by
twenty twenty six, Zach says in the chat, I think
this Blazer's team showed last year.
Speaker 2: Uh and we showed flashes last year.
Speaker 1: We do not think they get anything out of an
injured and rehabilitation Damien hanging around out the facilities.
Speaker 2: I you know what, this is what I was gonna
bring up. What does this say.
Speaker 1: About how they feel about Scoot. I'm not saying they're
gonna turn around and trade him right now, but you
already have Denny Avvias soaking up touches. Scoot has spent
most of his first two years coming off the bench
and is like, let's assume that Damian Lillard's going to
play for this he has a no trade clause.
Speaker 2: Let's assume he's going to play for this team in
twenty twenty six twenty twenty seven.
Speaker 1: Is the vision playing him starting him Afdia, Scoot and
Shandon Sharp or one in Shandon Sharp of and Scoot
or Dame like is one of them coming off the bench?
Are you moving Shandon Sharp or Scoot Henderson at that point.
There's a lot of complexities here, and they're also by
the way, I think the Dame deal as of now
takes them into the tax and so I'm looking at
this team like, well, what's the next move they're gonna make.
Are they gonna dump Matisse Thible somehow? Are they gonna
get rid of Jeremy Grant. What I'm most encouraged by, though,
is that the reason they were good last year is
the young players, or they're let's say the bigger picture players,
because not all of them are super young. It wasn't
because oh, DeAndre Ayton was balling, or like, look at
what Jeremy Grant like couldn't hit a two pointer to
save his life at one point.
Speaker 2: So that's super encouraging. I don't.
Speaker 1: I still don't understand, like what philosophy Chauncey Phillips runs
on the offensive side of the ball. And to finish
with my opening point was, well, like, where's the shooting
coming from on this roster?
Speaker 2: This season?
Speaker 1: You got going from Anthony Simon's to Drew Holliday, who
that's the other name too, is would you even bet
on Drew Holliday finishing the season on this roster if
you know that Dame is in the pipeline? I think
that's a really good story. It just adds layers of
complexity and pressure to some of the developmental projects going
on here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree with that. I think that the Dame
thing is just like, from a sentimental standpoint, I'm one
hundred percent on board. And my first thought when it
happened was basically like, oh, I wonder if this is
him conceding that these are going to be the last
three years of his career and he just wants to
finish them in a place that he loves, and maybe
he's not gonna play much at all because he's gonna
miss all of this year. He's gonna be a year
older and probably not fully recovered from the Achilles the
year after that.
Speaker 4: And so like, I think you have to think.
Speaker 3: I think it's right to ask the question about, like
down the line, are we just getting in the way
of Scoot, like just because Dame it's Damian Lillard and
we have to start him and play him a bunch.
I guess I'm just I'm not that concerned with this
yet because we're talking about something that's over a year
away and knows what this roster will look like by then.
I just think the defense is gonna be awesome. The
shooting is a problem, Like Sharp has to be better,
Scoot has to be better, Avdia and Kamara I have
to be better or at least more consistent. But but
I I think I just like the idea. I feel
stable with this team because I think the defense is
just gonna be good and then the offense probably not,
but I don't know there's upside. So it's I was
kind of struck by how much I like this team
and how low down in the tiers we have it.
You know that that just speaks to the west.
Speaker 1: Side, yes, as star Velly says, and that I really
hope they find success with Day would be a great story.
Speaker 2: I mean, they're just sup. They're super interesting both this
season and moving forward.
Speaker 1: It's with or without him. I just I haven't looked
at win totals. I know they're released, and you and
I don't typically do those until just before the season starts. Like,
if you had to pick right now, like what would
like what do you view this team ceiling as? Assuming
there's no other It feels like there's gonna be maybe
some bookkeeping moves or all though, maybe able to flip
mattistaible for a shooter or Jeremy Grant into someone who's
more of a shooter. I don't know, but it doesn't
feel like there's gonna be anything monumental happening.
Speaker 3: Here, right. I think the steiling can't be like fifty,
but I think mid to high forties is possible. Like you,
you know, the Rockets are an imperfect comparison, but a
jump similar to that like just happened. That jump just happened.
So I think it's it's okay to say, like, well,
maybe the Blazers might be the team that has enjoys
a similar leap. I don't know. I yeah, I think
we've went into this saying like I don't know, if
they're the sixth seed, that's that's not a crazy it's surprising,
but it's not totally unforeseeable if a few things break
in their favor.
Speaker 1: Next team I'm gonna go with, and I'm going to
put them in front of the Blazers.
Speaker 2: I have the Lakers.
Speaker 1: I don't know what to make of them, and I
think some people have been critical of what we've said
where we've we've been critical of their offseason. I still
don't love it. Where they asked, well, what were they
supposed to do? And my general response has been, will
not let Dori and Veinny Smith walk for nothing on
a deal that fits with your twenty twenty seven capspace plans.
Maybe he just wanted to leave, though, Is there any
chance that were over indexing on they didn't make this
big splash and under indexing on like Luca will probably
be better because he just wasn't Luca last season?
Speaker 2: And that are we somehow too low? Are the Lakers
somehow underrated?
Speaker 3: Grant Dan, I'm gonna exercise my veto in answer to
your question, and I'm gonna move the Lakers up.
Speaker 2: But oh, I did not see that coming.
Speaker 4: You're such a Homer, sorry to burn it.
Speaker 3: That was my other change. I had them down in
this same tier with the Blazers and what will now
be three other teams. I think here's here's the case.
You laid out a lot of it. They won fifty
games last year. You could argue that the additions of
DeAndre Ayton and Jake Lauravia.
Speaker 4: In fact, I will just say I think it's I
think there.
Speaker 3: I think I believe that the editions of Ayton and
la Ravia could offset uh Dorian Finney Smith's departure. You like,
that's on balance, that might be a talent upgrade, especially
since the guy Ayton is replacing Jackson Hayes, who's back
was just like awful, unplayable, so and Ayden. We don't
love Ayton, but like, I think I think he's better
than Jackson Hayes and and maybe better in ways that
really do get maximized by Luka Doncic, who, like, I'm
real uncomfortable making this prediction, but I gotta believe that
this year, at least he has to listen to all
the criticism and take to heart the reasons that Dallas
traded him. He's got to have a great year. I
just like, doesn't that seem likely if and if he doesn't,
then we got to just cut bait.
Speaker 4: Yeah, if you're not motivated now, I mean.
Speaker 3: That just just turns upside down everything I thought about
the league. So and I think it's really like I
forgot they won so many games last year with a
major in season trade Luca not being very good. So
I think I think I have them in a tier
that I'm more comfortable with one up. So did any
of that make a dent? Because you were gonna at
least put them ahead of the Blazers in that tier,
so you clearly don't think they're the worst team in
the tier.
Speaker 1: So were we to Vito the Veto, No, No, I
won't do that because I just feel like that's not
because then we're just out of Vitos for the rest
of it.
Speaker 2: But I also I see what you're saying. I guess
am I reading too much into like what's going on
with Lebron here. And I still don't like the offense should.
Speaker 1: Just be flames because look at the way ruiy Hachima
has shot the ball. You Austin Reeves improved a lot
both on and away from the ball, Lebron is still man.
I found the responses to some of the trade packages
we came up with sort of hysterical, where, Okay, we
might have been a little over ambitious with some of them,
but Lebron just made second team.
Speaker 2: All NBA, Like where like what wait? Like, that's why
you give up stuff is to.
Speaker 1: Get a player like that out here on a media timeline,
the pairing with him and Luca can be more intuitive.
I don't buy into, oh, maybe he wasn't thrilled with
it becoming a lot more Luca heliocentric. I honestly don't
believe that the on court stuff is Lebron's issue. So
much is the off court power that he has to
forfeit and Luca's not taking. Like I don't think he
blames Luca for that. If anything, it's an organizational thing.
I do find it funny that his camp is kind
of like, whoa, why would anyone think that he's asking
to be traded?
Speaker 2: Uh?
Speaker 1: Because you send out a thanks for the Memory's post
after he opted in to a contract.
Speaker 2: That's why. So I'm just I'm like, I don't know
how to feel about this team.
Speaker 1: You can talk to me and they have like a
lot of good players, but they still feel so I
think one of the things you.
Speaker 2: Have to buy into is.
Speaker 1: Is DeAndre Ayton gonna have some type of renaissance just
because he's playing alongside people that I can get because
last year in Portland was just they didn't have the
guard play the playmaking to put their.
Speaker 2: Bigs and advantageous positions.
Speaker 1: DeAndre, like DeAndre now has that, but also I know
people like oh lomb threat and like he can be that,
but like he's also likes to play inexplicably below the rim.
Is how it's not someone who needs to be groundbound.
It's just someone who likes like Luca might toss him
a lob, He'll come down and catch it and then
fade out into like like a twelve twelve foot turnaround.
So I just man, I'm I well, Miles Johnson says,
I'm so over the Lakers discourse. They lost in five
games in the first round and back to back seasons.
Speaker 2: That still puts them in.
Speaker 1: The conversation as one of the eight best teams of
the conference though, so they could be in the what
is this the B tier? So we're talking about them
before we get to the B tier, which is weird.
We probably should have left it. I see, I see
your case. I just feel like when I look at
the roster, too much of it has to go right
for like, like they their margin for would you agree
that their margin for error is super thin here? And
they're still there's they still don't like who's their best
two way player?
Speaker 3: Uh, it's probably isn't it just Lebron? Like if you're
talking about like when he's fully engaged, maybe.
Speaker 2: And that's like sort of a problem.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean second team All NBA though you
said it like that, you know, if that's your second
best player. So I just I was trying to really
what it came down to for me is is and
And yet Miles is correct to ask because I was
about to say, Uh, he's asking how many teams in
the West have a worst bench than the Lakers? Not many?
The starters though, if you go Reeves, Luca, Hachimura, Lebron
and eight and like, that's pretty good. Like you, there's
enough of kind of everything there except for a wing stopper.
Finny Smith would have been nice.
Speaker 2: Hey they had him, did you know that that role? Right?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Maybe could they look into getting him don't you
think it's possible too that like between Vanderbilt Vincent Kaliba
La Revia, there's one or two guys that emerges reliable
bench players, and then you're just looking for an eighth man.
Speaker 4: You know, I don't think it's.
Speaker 2: Five years ago, like I'd probably feel a lot better
about Sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're past that. Uh, I was gonna say before
we move on, I just thought that the Lakers fit
better next to the teams I have in that B tier,
which we will get to eventually. Then it then they
did with the other which there'll be a total of
four now in the C tier.
Speaker 4: So you bump I'm.
Speaker 3: Gonna throw im.
Speaker 2: Sorry you were talking about the See I didn't bump them.
Speaker 3: I bumped the Pelicans down and the Lakers up.
Speaker 1: Basically, I thought you were saying you had four teams
to be, which would have meant that you added another
team to be.
Speaker 2: So I was fascinated. Who that was? No?
Speaker 3: Just three? Just three? And b uh So to get
back to C, we have the Blazers there, I'm gonna
throw the Spurs as another team in that tier.
Speaker 4: Have to acknowledge, Uh do it?
Speaker 3: Yes? I do have them a head of the Blazers
for what it's worth, it's when Min Yama, it's Deerren Fox.
I think maybe has now become underrated. We've we've really
swung back and forth a lot there. I don't know,
maybe he's properly rated, but I think if the basics
of it are, if wom Minyamba is one of the
five best players in the league, which I think you
could argue that he was until he got hurt, he
was on a lot of first team All NBA ballots,
or at least in consideration maybe the first cut to
the second team. Then not a lot else has to
go right for them to at least belong in this
tier and maybe have a reason to move up. So
you're not getting a bunch of, you know, winning driving
play from Harper from Castle. We both like Vassell. Harrison
Barnes is a solid VET. Luke Cornett the free agent
acquisition gives him the best backup guy to Wemby they've
had upfront basically ever, shouts out to Zach Collins.
Speaker 4: There's just kind of enough here too.
Speaker 3: They feel like they belong in the Blazers tier and
they have a lot of upside. Similarly, but it just
comes from Wembenyama because I don't see Castle or Harper
like sew him making some kind of leap necessarily, it's
just Wemby.
Speaker 1: Which I think this is probably right for them, and
it's if you want to. Some people might quibble over
Webby coming off the blood clot with the that look like,
is he gonna be someone who ends up missing time?
He's been cleared. I think that's positive. I keep coming
back to they were a plus two point three points
per one hundred posessions with him on the floor last year,
and he played almost thirty two hundred possessions. Who was
their second best player, Trade John And that's like, so
now it's Daron Fox. And they weren't great together, but
they didn't play a ton together because of the Wemby
injury and then Fox had his own injury. I think
he's gonna be someone who winds up. I've always been higher,
you know, on consensus on Fox's jumper, but I do
have there does feel like there's real downside here independent
of Wemby, right, like getting injured or missing time. Because
I know people say, oh, like you're overthinking, like the
Dylan Harper, the Aaron Fox Steph Castle fit and maybe
we are, but like you are heavily invested in two
of these youngsters, Castle and Harper who are not done
developing and with those learning like no one has the
learning curve of Wemby where it's he does a lot
of stuff wrong, but he might just win MVP anyway,
Like that's like that's that's a one of one learning curve.
And so I think that even if you're high on
them for the future, I do, Zach in the chat
doesn't matter when betrayed with Buddhist monks, everyone is unnoticed.
So I like it's they have real upside, but they
like it, doesn't it feel like they might be the
teams with one of the higher ranges of outcomes to
where like if you wanted to make a case Wenby's
totally healthy, Fox is an all NBA type player. Yeah,
you could probably put them a is ambitious, but like
a B tier. But if things if they really lean
into like, no, we still need to see what we
have in so hand. We still need to really figure
out like the on ball and off ball dynamics of Dylan,
Harper and Castle. And I think, by the way, I know,
like in what little we saw of him in Summer League.
I really think Dylan Harper is gonna figure out how
to move away from the ball effectively, and so that
gives me more hope than I had for this sort
of grouping. But I still think that they're going to
be too reliant on their front court players, Like they're
big specifically to space, and I'd like to see more
of it coming from the perimeter. I honestly think Devin
Vescelles feels like a sneaky important player, like relative to
the entire NBA this coming year.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's right. I don't know how much
I want to agree and say they have a fairly
high variance, like outside of Wemby, but it's almost like
they can control it to some extent just by virtue
of how much time on the ball they give Harper
and Castle versus Fox, because you can kind of minimize
those guys and then you'll limit the mistakes and you
can trot out, you know, if it's Fox, the cell Barns,
whoever else and Wemby, Like that's a pretty solid two
way group that like you know, is not it has
less variance, I guess, is what I'm saying. Cornett's in
the rotation and they're just like there's a steadiness there.
But if you then if you bump up the minutes
and usage of Castle and Harper, then the mistakes come.
Then the then the bad quarters come where they can't
get into the off and you know, like they can
kind of choose which way they want to go just
based on who they play, and that's just going to
be a balancing act, I think all year, unless something
crazy happens with Fox and he, you know, gets no extension,
and then they all think about moving him, which wouldn't bekaze.
Speaker 1: So we have a question from Miles in the chat,
what percentage chance would you put on a Fox trade
pre deadline? I go like twenty five percent. And doesn't
that come back because if he gets extended, he can't
be traded for six months. And so if I'm well,
assuming he gets more than a five percent raise, for
anyone who cares about that minutia, if I'm him, I'm pulling.
If they're offering the extension, I'm pulling the lowry market
in And I don't even know when he's he was
I think he was eligible for it already, right, But regardless,
I'm if if he's eligible for it. Now, I'm waiting
until I think the trade deadline's like February fifth, So
I will sign my extension in August sixth, so that
I know I can't be traded bactly six months. And
if they don't sign him to an extension, I might
peg that percentage at like fifty because that would just
say like, Okay, well what is going on here? And
I don't I don't think the Spurs are an organization
that would do that because they trade he wanted to
go there, they trade it for him with the they
intend to extend him. But when you ended up with
the Dylan Harper pick, you there's there has to be
discussions happening within the front office right now about this.
Speaker 3: I think, Like, I mean, it's just it's a business.
You know, let's trot Thatt Like, if you're the Spurs,
you have no incentive to do anything but play really
really hardball with with Fox, like you you don't have
to concede anything because you have two guys that might
just matter more to the franchise than him. It would
feel like a bad look just because, like you said,
Fox wanted to be there. Uh, he's when it happened,
is like, well that's the second but that's the best
player Wemby's ever gonna play with, And it's just like,
well maybe not now, and especially if.
Speaker 4: You consider Foxes.
Speaker 3: We've talked about it, like just the aging curve for
a player who really depends on speed to be successful,
Like I don't know, there's there's a chance we're at
his apex or beyond it already. Like there's the things
that you got to think about as the Spurs no
reason to go mac are like full years of dollars
last he lost a lot.
Speaker 1: Of leverage though when they got number two in the lottery.
I will say, yeah, it'll be an interesting challenge trade
and there probably needs to be other moving parts of it.
Speaker 2: De Aaron Fox or Jaalen Brown.
Speaker 3: I mean, Brown makes so much more sense on San
Antonio than Fox does, right, I mean like that that
might be worth it's so expensive though, Yeah, I think the.
Speaker 1: Stores are probably cheap enough for a little bit where
you don't mind the next two years of Jaylen Brown's contract,
which might make it more feasible we have anything.
Speaker 3: Else on the Spurs, No, I think we should move on.
Speaker 2: Put it's my turn writer did I add the Spurs? No,
you added the Spurs.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm going to put.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna put the Grizzlies.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna put them ahead of the Blazers, but behind
the Spurs. Uh, do you have them in this tier?
Speaker 3: I do have them in this tier, and I actually
have them. I have them ahead of the Spurs. But
I don't think that's releve That doesn't matter. It's close
enough to where I live.
Speaker 1: I just don't trust this team even sorta like I haven't.
I'm I always get queasy when winning teams or teams
that are trying to win go to renegotiate and extend route.
I understand the logic here, but they also the Desmond
Baine trade. So you lost your second best score, your
best shooter. H have they got there? They're also and
he didn't play in summer League. I really wanted to
see him, but he was dealing with that shoulder injury.
They kind of have a lot riding on Cedric Coward
being just good off rip. You need to be good,
and that's just it's an uncomfortable and you're dealing with
like a bunch of front court. You decided to trade
away Jay Huff and then you have the Zach Edy injury.
What is he gonna Is he even gonna be available
to start the season. I think they said he would,
but what does he look like coming off the injury?
Brand Clark coming off another injury?
Speaker 2: Just Jared Jackson Junior.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was gonna say, that's absurd one.
Speaker 1: I like, I don't know, Like you could probably talk
me being like at the bottom of this tier, John Morant, Grant,
hold on to your seat. There's a chance he miss
his time. There's it's a there's a chance. I don't
know what. I don't know what to make of them.
I think that like there's a chance like they could
be I don't if you put them in the playoffs,
I don't know who's the opponent in the first round
they could face that would make me favor them. So
I'll say that right off the bat, there's a chance,
I could they win a lot of regular season games
and this ends up looking egregiously low. But I'm just
they feel two house of cards e for a team
that's and I like, I understand the value coming back
in the Desmond Bain trade, but then when you go
get like it, I don't know what.
Speaker 2: I don't know what they're doing. I guess my point
it's just like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean part of it is, like I think,
from their perspective, the Baine trade is one you just
say yes to just because of the first round capital
come in their way, even if a lot of it's
not going to be super high value. They already flipped.
Speaker 4: Some of that.
Speaker 3: Uh, but just talent and talent out Bain gone, Canard gone,
Huff gone, Cole Anthony sort of was never there, and
you're adding KCP Ty Jerome Jock Landale. I think they're
worse just from a pure talent perspective, and then you're
having to and like that. The injury questions are really
where it's at because you listed them all like basically
everybody who matters for them, like other than like Jalen Wells,
although he got hurt at the end of last year.
So like so many guys at the high end of
the rotation have massive injury and availability questions and you
just can't really, you can't move them higher.
Speaker 4: You can't. They can't be in the next tier.
Speaker 3: To me, even while acknowledging like you said that, yeah,
if they do get good health, then sure like they
could win fifty games like that's I could totally see
that they've done it before with mostly these same guys,
but it's at this point you kind of can't count
on that out.
Speaker 1: No, And also just like the Cole Anthony stuff, So
we're just we're cool with the team, you know, like
a team that's trying to win paying someone what did
he give back two million or something? So just ten
million bucks to not play like, we're just we're cool
with that. I just the mode of operations here, just
to like, I don't know, retain talent, but you also
shed it.
Speaker 2: And then you picked up Cedric Coward.
Speaker 1: I I don't know what, and I don't even know
you look at the roster. I think you say they'll
probably be better on defense than offense, right, but I'm
not prepared to guarantee it anymore.
Speaker 2: I love Jayon Wells too, hind. I think he's I
think he should have run Rookie of the Year personally,
but neither here or there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, let's uh. I have one more team
in this tier and it is the Dallas Mavericks.
Speaker 2: Where do you want to put them?
Speaker 3: I think I want to put him at the top.
Speaker 2: They're like, they're kind of the fun, kind of confusing.
Speaker 3: Right, So just just to recap, like not actually a
lot of activity. I guess they did get some guy
at the top of the draft. Can't remember his name.
They got dan Angela Russell on one of the best
deals for a player that neither of us really love.
Of the offseason, they Kyrie Irving signed to what I
felt like was a below market extension. But he's I
don't know how much he's gonna help this year. I
would anticipate, like very little. Do you think he plays.
Speaker 2: Like at the start of twenty twenty six or before.
Speaker 1: If he's back before the All Star Break, I'd be
pretty surprised.
Speaker 3: I had been sort of writing off the year just entirely,
when that didn't mean he wasn't gonna play at all.
But I've just figured like, once he's back, you're gonna
get some some lesser version of him for however long
he plays this year. All Star breaks a good a
good cutoff, Like if he's playing before that, I would
be very surprised.
Speaker 4: So that's like, what do you do with this team?
Speaker 3: Because they have the big man glutt which is maybe
being simplified by Derek Lively's hurt again and had to
have another operation.
Speaker 4: So like maybe that sorts itself out.
Speaker 3: That's not a good outcome that that, like your logjam
is less jammy because one of the most important guys
in it got hurt again. You have Davis, you have Gafford.
I think that the center, the front court looks really good.
It's a question of the playmaking, which Russell's gonna be Like, okay,
at I think, and then again Irving, I don't ex
lot out of this. Just this team just feels like
it has enough talent across the board to be Again,
these are all teams I think in general we could
imagine finishing above the play in but it's not likely.
Speaker 4: I don't know, is what I'd say.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: What do you think about the maus? I find them
confusing too.
Speaker 1: I have a tough time envisioning them being really good
on offense because Anthony Damas, whether he's playing power forwarder center,
is going to be at his best if you have
someone to get him the ball Cooper flag. It's clear
based off Summer League, and Jason Kidds said this beforehand,
they're gonna put the ball in his hand and have
him run things, and like it looked good at points,
but like just between the handle and even the stamina
where it felt like he wasn't used to exerting as
all that energy on offense, I have questions and then like, okay,
Deandrel Russell's fine until Kyrie comes back. You know, you
talk about their big man like Daniel gafferd Derek Lively
when he's healthy. Those guys on offense, their value is
predicated on having someone else get them the ball.
Speaker 2: And to be in that situation.
Speaker 1: With if they're planning on playing huge, you're presumably gonna
be in that situation where two of the players on
the floor at least, Like that's how much of their
productivity is to and like, yeah, they'll have maybe they'll
have like PJ. Washington slide up to the floor in
Naji Marshall. So there's that, and look Naji Marshall's drives
last year we saw PJ. Washington punish some mismatches. I
think they should be really good on defense. I think
look Cooper Flag, not a lot we keep saying, not
at a lot of rot. We keep saying not a
lot of rookies in the past have been good on defense,
and I feel like there's just this trend where younger
guys are coming in and like Evan Mobley and look
at what John Wells was able to do last year.
Wemby of course is another example. I think he's gonna
be really good defensively right out of the gate. And
so you have him and you're just huge. You're still huge,
and honestly, you're probably even bigger without Kyrie just because
Danel Russell Iss gonna be a little bigger than him
if he's your point guy. It's just the offense for me.
So I mean, like the three biggest questions are what
does Cooper flag look like on offense? What is the
over arching reach of the offense without Kyrie? And then
this one from the chat grant, what's also the over
under the number of games that Anthony Davis plays that
he always just he's has there ever been anyone who
just didn't have a chronic injury.
Speaker 2: He just gets injured all the time, like more than
he is, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, fifty five fifty five is a good number. I mean,
that's why the MAVs just can't be in the next
tier if Irving were healthy. I think it's a much
more interesting conversation. I think I probably would have them.
Speaker 1: Generational hater if Irving's healthy, had probably like or fifty
five win ceiling, but a twenty five win floor.
Speaker 2: Maybe they're the team with the highest range of outcomes
in the West.
Speaker 3: I mean again, it's I think it's limited a little
bit by Irving. They could, they could, maybe they look
like a fifty five win team at the end of
the season, as Irving is like rounding into form, But
I don't think over the course of the year they
can quite get there. Although like there's a bunch of
guys just looking down the roster, like Max Christie. Somebody
in the chat was mentioning, like, yeah, Mel mentioned Mac.
I like Christy, he can defend and is a serious guy.
Like I like Christy a lot too between him, Klay Thompson, PJ. Washington.
You've got Naji Marshall. You've got like, I mean, some
legit like wing forward combo options in addition to your
giant front line. So like, as we talk about this more,
doesn't it feel like D'Angel Russell, like you mentioned the
cell as like a huge swing guy, Like, doesn't D'Angel
Russell like kind of determine a lot for this team
because nobody else is really gonna consistently playmake. I don't think.
Speaker 2: I don't think Cooper Fly has a chance of I
think I know.
Speaker 3: I mean, like I said, consistently playmake like I think
he'll try. But it's like, even for a guy that
you know has no weaknesses, just like that's a lot
to ask in his first.
Speaker 1: Year, like Cam Martin's healthy, I mean, between him maxical,
Like this team, is there a chance that they could
have like the second or third best defense in the
I'm just assuming, okay, so he will be number one again,
But when you just look at the personnel, especially given
how they have to play without Kyrie for so long,
isn't there a chance of just like this second third
best defensive team in the league or no.
Speaker 3: I would hesitate just there's a chance. I just think
if you're gonna play Thompson and Russell and maybe Hardy
a lot like that, that makes it hard. But basically
everybody else can guard. So yeah, I think like, as
long as you don't have a bunch of your weak
guys out there. At the same time, ceiling's fairly high defensively, offense,
is going to be a struggle. I think just there's
just not enough like ball movers, and I.
Speaker 1: Think they're in the right spot. They're in the right tier,
even if you could see them going up one or
slipping down one. But I just I think this is
the team that I'm like least confident in ranking among
all the ones that we've talked about so far.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean, although should
it should it be the Lakers since we disagreed on them,
I'm not confident now that wraps.
Speaker 1: The was that the C tier, so we were onto
the beatier. We already talked about the Lakers, so we
went out of because Grant use his veto, we each
have a veto. I haven't used mine yet. Is anyone
is anyone getting intrigued? Which team want to start within
the B tier? So we have three teams in this tier.
I believe I'm going to put let's put the Clippers
in here. I have them in front of the Lakers.
Speaker 2: Do you have them in front of the Lakers as well?
Oh yeah, there's still I mean, look, someone posted this
and it was a joke, but it's so Bradley Beal
like kind of wasn't okay in Phoenix, being like the
third option and wasn't as good or struggled to adapt,
and now he's fine, He's gonna do the same thing
in la and be okay.
Speaker 1: I'm more optimistic for a couple of reasons. They've tried
to streamline Kawhi's offensive role a bunch, and so I
think like there will be more of those Beal type
touches available to him. They also have the defensive structure,
like because Beale, would he shoot last year from three?
Speaker 2: Was it like thirty eight percent? Or am I totally
misremembering that?
Speaker 3: No, that that's like the sneaky truth about his time
in Phoenix is he actually was pretty efficient, like relative
to Washington days.
Speaker 1: Like, I just think that he makes them a lot
better and he like he to his credit. In Phoenix,
he may have pouted or become top or been like
taunting fans with his no trade clause. Basically he kind
of showed that he would try to adapt, And so
I'm actually not worried that if they signed Chris Paul,
I'm gonna be a little bit.
Speaker 2: That's that's the thing we're looking at her, Like that
makes sense. But with the Beal on the Harden of
it all just seems bizarre. Also, Chris Paul and James
Harden being on the same team again is objectively hysterical.
It still sort of.
Speaker 1: Comes down to how many games this Kawhi playing because
I think that he's kind of even more they've kind
of maybe he's less critical on offense, but hasn't he
become more critical on defense? Just because it seems like
right now you're putting in Beal into the rotation, John
Collins is gonna play a bunch. Brook Lopez kind of
slipped on that end a little bit more, and like,
how is this team playing? I mean, like, is this
gonna cut down on playing time for Chris Dunn and
Derek Jones Junior, two of your more impactful defenders from
last year. So I think there I feel better about them. Certainly,
remember we destroyed them heading into last year and we
were wrong, and I feel better about them than maybe
even how they closed this season. There's a I'm probably
gonna couch though, or if I find myself thinking, oh,
like they're the sneaky content, like they might just be
the second best team in the West, which is what
we kind of talked about last year. I might just
reserve myself a little bit more because now we're getting
into it, right the James Harden playoff track record?
Speaker 2: How healthy is this team? What is beal going to
look like when the postseason comes around. I'm it feels
like there might be another like move to be made here,
But they're ultra deep. They are built to still be
really good on defense.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, yeah, there's the age factors, but like
the clips look long in the tooth. That'll factor into
just availability for these guys. But I think like the
big key for me is just well, how well does
Kawhi played thirty seven and they won fifty? And this
team is way better than the team heading into last season?
Speaker 2: Are they? Are they way better?
Speaker 3: That's the kind of I put that one up there
because that's kind of where I if you're oversimplifying it land.
Speaker 4: Just the Powell loss.
Speaker 3: We can debate whether Powell this coming. Powell was better
than Bill last year, will he be better than Bill
this year?
Speaker 2: Maybe?
Speaker 3: I don't know if I'm really rushing to bet on
a late career career year quite you know so quickly,
but you add Collins, you add Lopez, you add beal,
you really are only subtracting Powell from the mix. I think,
like I do, think this team is better as long
as the age and injury stuff doesn't catch up, which
is like, okay, well that really might because because Harden
and Kawhi are who they are and Lopez is who
he is and what is he thirty seven, so like
there's real down there. There's there's like a pretty scary floor,
but it's kind of injury based, which is like, well,
that's kind of true for most teams. Yeah, I think
this team is really good. I think I have no
issue putting it at the top of the tiers so far,
certainly better than the Lakers. I think you'd never consider
moving him down, even while acknowledging that.
Speaker 1: Would be just as point out like Kawhi played in
thirty seven and they still won fifty. I'm still kind
of interesting how it all comes together. And I would
be I'd be, hey, where's the young talent. Trenton Flowers
is gonna defend his ass off, That's what That's what
Trenton Flowers does.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think they're probably in the right spot too.
Speaker 1: I just don't and I would agree, I'd be closer
to moving them up a tier. But I just there's
so much, there's so many question marks with and I
hate boiling it down to availability because I think the
theory of the team makes sense even if I'm not
like the biggest John Collins guy. But if you have
CP three on this roster and already James Harden like
as a lob guy, John Collins being able to do that,
so and yeah, the backup center or the backup like
front court rotation being bigger and just deeper in general, that'll.
Speaker 2: Go a long way. And they are. They're probably more
insulated too.
Speaker 1: If there is a drop off from Kawhi right, maybe
not in games played, but offensively like Beal because of
the self creation. I think that's where the upgrade from
Norman Powell comes the most. And we saw Norman Powell
slow down in his on ball efficiency specifically.
Speaker 2: Is the season war on?
Speaker 3: Yeah, this team is very scary.
Speaker 4: This is it will be it.
Speaker 3: If nothing goes crazily wrong, we'll be at the doorstep
of the playoffs saying, like you know, nobody wants to play,
There'll be the Clippers, just like it was last year.
Speaker 2: Do you want to pick the next team?
Speaker 3: For them, I gotta add, Okay, Yeah, one more team
in this tier. It is the Warriors. Just before I
start speaking, are you okay with them in this tier?
Do they belong one down?
Speaker 2: I think? I think if you're put the Lakers in
this tier, I'm okay with the Warriors in this tier?
Where do you have them?
Speaker 3: I have them between the Lakers and Clippers, so behind
the Yeah, there you go. What do you think about that?
Speaker 2: Is that your justification?
Speaker 1: Look, they feel it's kind of a similar case to
the Lakers, and I probably I do feel better about
the top of their roster overall, But you're also kind
of and maybe it's not similar to the Lakers. It's
like they're in between the Lakers and the Clippers. So
this is fitting. There's just a lot kind of riding
on three older dudes remaining ultra healthy and one of
them just can't miss more than ten games or the
Warriors are cooked and I'm talking about Steph Curry. Basically,
I don't know how Like they've done nothing this offseason,
and if we assume that, I'm kind of still penciling
in Al Horford for Golden State, which I I love.
By the way, I know he's old, but he could
he he could still play and he fits like how
they want to run their team, especially on offense. I
just don't the Jonathan Kaminga situation makes me uneasy if
he's back, because it's is he playing for his next
contract at that point? Is he willing to fit into
the larger ecosystem of the offense. Can he defend better?
I thought nikaias Duncan made a great point on the
low post to where it's you can point to Jonathan
Kaminga's stats in the games in which he logs over
thirty minutes, they're great. It's like over twenty points sufficient scoring.
He would have more of those games under his belt.
I think if he defended better or maybe even passed
better as well. But it's like you, if you throw
Jonathan Kaminga back onto this team, like I do you
lose something trying to fit him in where it's this
talented player, but it's a square peg, round hole situation.
Speaker 3: The situation you're describing is just not any di Then
it's been for like two plus years with him, right
like if he's back, like, yeah, you'll be right to say,
I bet he's kind of annoyed. I'll bet he's gonna
get frustrated when they don't give him the opportunity to
just control an offense that has Steph Curry and Jimmy
Butler in it. Like, yeah, that that's been the dynamic,
and I think the locker room is full of enough
vets and just like I don't know, cultural stability where
it's like Jonathan Kaminga can't like wreck this team's chemistry.
He's not important enough to really do that. Like he
might sulk, he might you know, not give good effort
when he's not guaranteed thirty plus minutes, but that's just
that's the status quo. So like, you know, I I'm
not I think I think it might be an issue
in other circumstances, but if like, it's not anything different
than the Warriors have been dealing with specifically with this
guy for a long time. So I'm not concerned about that.
I think, like you know, and whether he's back or
not honestly doesn't change my opinion on the team team
overall that much. I'm I'm definitely done. I think, you know,
with the logic of well, if Kaminga really pops this year,
we can add five more wins to the total, Like
even I've moved past that, Like I just don't think
he can do that, or we'll have the opportunity even
if he could. On this team, it's just with Steph
Butler Draymond like that. If they're healthy, this team is
and they showed it, like when those guys were all
together down the stretch last year, this team looked like
a top four team in the West, played like one.
The health questions are super legit, but I think you
could bank on like pajem schemes should be a little better,
Like you're gonna post what you get from Moody and
healed Post. Yeah, Quinn Post is gonna make all NBA
first team. I mean the additions of like it shouldn't
matter this much, but if they get Horford, Andy, Anthony Melton,
then it's like they absolutely there's no question they belong
in this tier. I don't know if I'd move them up,
but like they could play with the teams above them
if they get those guys and they say I.
Speaker 1: Think, but they're also so it's just like we talk
about the age and the injury stuff. We saw the
limitations in the playoffs, but like in the regular season.
Specifically having Jimmy Butler's huge because it does give you
a margin for error without Steph, and so I'm not
as worried about like the age and just that aspect
of it. If it happens in the postseason, that's where
you Yeah, okay, But when you look at this team,
whether you're a fan looking at as an adalyst, if
you're actually in on winning the title this year, rather
than just trying to be quality for Steph's twilight, they
need to do something else other than just sign out Horford,
bring back Kuminga, and get Danthony Milton right, Like, this
is not like could this team win the entire thing
assuming those moves when I don't again, three of them
are not done yet.
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, you can't say yes because the Rockets
are a deeply flawed team and they barely could beat
the Rockets. And then the Wolve series is like, well
when STEP's hurt, like what are what's the point of
even watching anymore?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you're right that they aren't good.
Speaker 3: They aren't good enough just talent wise, probably like if
everybody's healthy, I guess you could still say, like, oh,
they can kind of play with anybody they have, like
given the thunder problems to the extent anybody has. But
then it comes back to if you're talking about, like
can they win a championship. I just don't think the
three old guys are gonna make it through the entire
postseason without like some kind of you know, course altering
injury or breakdown or even before that, like maybe the
injuries happened during the season and you have to fight
from the ninth seed, like and you just there's no chance.
So I just think the durability because of the age
of the most important players is an issue you can't ignore.
That's why I can't even really seriously consider moving them up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I don't really have any qualms about them
being here, But it feels like the floor. It's the
same thing with all these teams in the tiers, like
you could see the floor kind of coming out from
underneath each one of them, whether it's the Clippers, the Warriors,
or the Lakers. That does wrap it up for this tier, though, right,
so we have next tier.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna throw in there, all right.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna throw we both have the Timberwolves in here,
So they're the only team we him ahead of anybody.
Speaker 2: I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't want to say I don't know what to
make of them. They do feel kind of disrespected for
a team that just made consecutive Western Conference finals is
not the East, So I like that's fascinated me. I
think losing to Keethle Alexander Walker, it clearly sucks. But
hopefully one of Jaalen Clark or Terron Shannon Junior hits
enough of the threes where they can book because they
will replace a lot of what he does, maybe not
some of the tangential playmaking. They do feel though, just
giving the aging curve of Mike Conley the limitations, I
maybe he's gonna continue to get better. So that's not
But like you have Julie s Rendel, you have Anthony Edwards,
you still just don't have an A plus passer, and
so you need to load up on those B level
B plus passers. They kind of need Rob Dillingham to
be good this season.
Speaker 2: But I also don't know if.
Speaker 1: He's gonna get a chance to play still, like he's
looked mostly fine in Summer League. I throw stats and
not turnovers out the rendow entirely, but he's got like
his on ball juice is real. I'm just curious, as
do you think that they're gonna give him like a
do you know the kind of the shot that we're
expecting Reed Shepherd to get with the Rockets this year?
Do you think Dillingham gets that where it's fifteen minutes
a game on.
Speaker 2: A consistent basis.
Speaker 3: I think it's just I view him and Conley as
so linked, Like I would say yes if Conley misses
time or just takes another incremental step backwards as the
age is aged thirty eight season, like you just you
have to anticipate he's gonna either be less available or
less effective or both. If Conley's like solid enough, then
I don't know, maybe Dillingham doesn't get quite the shot
that we might like him to, But there's also so
I don't know, it just depends on Conley. I guess
was a short answer, because like they do need what
Dillingham theoretically provides, just in terms of like he can
beat his guy and draw a second defender and make
something happen Like that's that's a skill that this offense
really needs. Even if he's great at the things.
Speaker 4: He's great at.
Speaker 3: I don't know if Dillingham is the guy that's like
whipping the ball around and suddenly the Wolves offense is
like the blender, you know, the Pacers blender. But yeah,
I think you need you need playmaking from him, You
need it from Randall, you need it from de Vincenzo,
like you need Read to be a guy that's like
driving a lot and collapsing the defense that way. But
like you said it, this team made the conference finals twice.
I think we should expect Anthony Edwards to continue to improve,
and he's already like at such a high level that
improvement for him is like he's you know, you're talking
top five MVP, like for the balance, you know, the
bulk of the season. So I just like, we know
the defense should be good. It's does let me ask you, like,
does a lot of what we're discussing about the Wolves
feel really similar to what we discussed last year about
our questions and about our uncertainties and like which way
does this roster lean defense versus offense? Like not a
lot has really changed, even though Alexander Walker's gone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have the same questions. I think what gives
me a slightly more hope for them to at least
be better in the regular season. I think you could
reasonably say they've peaked the postseason just because they were
in the conference finals in the past two years, right
or give me hope is like, Okay, we saw what
Julius Randall can do in this system, and like Dante
DiVincenzo has to have like a better year. That was
just like he was very up and down he did.
I think he did deal with like a lower body
injury at one point too. So I think like we
do have the same questions, but we also have like
a couple more answers, like just a little bit more
when it comes to specifically okay, Dante de Evincenzo, Julius Randall.
But now you've, like you said with no, you've added
in the variable of okay, well like our Arran Shannon
Junior or and or Jalen Clark ready to do something
for you. It's weird to say that they've lost to
Kile Alexander Walker, and it's like, do we feel we
feel worse about their shooting now?
Speaker 2: Right? Like that wasn't something.
Speaker 1: That was a calling card and he hasn't necessarily shot
it well in the playoffs.
Speaker 2: The past couple of seasons all the time.
Speaker 1: That's gonna be something they have to overcome because is
that going to allow like who, like what is there?
I guess their core I guess what helps is their
core lineup remains the same. So Anthony Edwards isn't gonna
be in a worse situation, but like he wasn't in
the optimal situations last year.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's definitely true. I wanted to before
we move on, hind was asking go beart trade in coming.
Speaker 2: You're not high on Joel Binger Bayringer. I can't have
the pronunciation.
Speaker 1: I'm still if you're honest French, and I can't remember
how to pronounce it already.
Speaker 3: I just think, like, doesn't that make the read contract
just like, oh okay, I get it now. Is if
you're anticipating, like, no, he's not going to be a
twenty five million dollars a year backup, he's going to
start for us eventually because we're trading Gobert at some point,
Like that makes that contract make more sense to me.
I don't know that that's just the one thing to
consider the defense though, it makes it a hell of
a lot worse, Like that that would be them acknowledging
the reason we're not advancing to the finals is because
our offense just is too far behind where it needs
to be, and we'll sacrifice some defense for that. I
don't know if that'll be the right call, but you
could imagine them, you know, after two years of having
that be how things play out, just well, let's try
a different way.
Speaker 1: They're like a team that could whether it's moving, like
do you ever even consider moving nas reed to try
and address maybe getting like a higher end for general
in here is like is there an And it's just
we don't really see the big for floor general trades.
It used to be, oh, we never see big for wing,
but it's like, could you do? I feel like there's
probably not enough value for like is there like a no?
Because they love yaka Pearl. I was gonna say, like
you send nas or Rudy Gobert Toronto get a manual
quickly back or something.
Speaker 2: Is that doing anything for you?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I don't know.
Speaker 4: I did that. That read contract.
Speaker 3: I guess most teams would view him as a starter,
So it's not like a crazy thing to.
Speaker 1: Do, especially so easy to move next year, specifically because
he he Oh no, he didn't not he declined it.
Speaker 2: That's right, it's part of it. He got a five
year deal. I take that back.
Speaker 1: Still, I still think he's probably pretty easy to move.
But there it's weird because they go through stretches where
their offense is like fifth for x amount of games
every year, and yet you still can't trust it. And
I'm not saying them getting rid of or not really
materially changes that it like should make it worse, but
it's just it's just another Vrea with this team, And
I'm curious to see, like, would this be a team
that you would I like, well, they follow this through
for the entire year, or if things are just kind
of not going to plan, they would be a team
that would look at mid season fireworks, whether it's trying
to tack even though it's difficult, like giving their limitations,
but that are trying to tack on, or maybe they're
getting rid of some money, because I view them as
a ladder to where it's oh, this would be a
team where if they don't start right like they're just
they might try to course correct pretty quickly.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And what that takes the form of Randall or
Gobert or Nas getting traded, right, if you're really trying
to move a big number, that's got to be one
of those guys. Yeah, I could see that. I mean,
I just think that realistically, Like I think they're gonna
win fifty something games and they're going to be in
the top four and they'll just run into offensive issues
in the playoffs and maybe that's in the conference finals
or maybe not quite right.
Speaker 4: Like that, just they feel like there's a pretty.
Speaker 3: Low variance for their possible outcomes, which is different than
we've been saying for a lot.
Speaker 1: Have a lot of variations of this in the chat,
and this one's from Bertman. They might not be able
to move these guys. Who wants Julius Randall or Rudy
Gobert at this point in their careers. I get the
Randall because he's such a tough fit. I know he's
younger and he's made multiple NBA teams.
Speaker 2: I feel like I.
Speaker 1: Would take on Rudy Gobert, like his contract as a player,
right as a person, we can have a different discussion,
but like that contract's not one that really phases me
over the next what is it? He is three years
left on it? Like that's not is that one you're
overly concerned about.
Speaker 3: I mean a little bit, but but for the reason being,
I'm not sure where the team is. That's saying where
a Rudy Gobert away from.
Speaker 1: Phoenix to talk themselves into it.
Speaker 3: Get I'm sorry, I don't know where the team is.
That could rationally say that because just like that's he
he changes a lot of what you do. And so
it's not like Gobert is additive in that like he
basically guarantees your defense will be good when he's on
the floor and sometimes great. But it's like you do
change how you play on both ends when when he's
on the floor, And it's that that to me is
why he's harder to trade as it's tricky to find
the team. That's like, we understand how we're gonna integrate him,
and we super need him, and we're willing to pay
thirty five, thirty seven, thirty eight million over the next
three years for him in age thirty three, thirty four
to thirty five like seasons, Like I think he's really
good and improves teams.
Speaker 4: It's just hard to think of.
Speaker 3: Like who's starving for Rudy Gobert to come at that price,
and like.
Speaker 2: Would you do nas Reed and Rob Dillingham for Dearn Fox?
Speaker 1: It makes no sense on the spurs. Dillingham doesn't nos
read fits along side't want to be like a.
Speaker 3: Uh yeah, and he doesn't. But I I don't love
the Fox fit Edwards.
Speaker 2: And then Randall's still there. That was a bad one.
Speaker 1: I was just like what because we're talking about, Oh,
they could use a different facilitator, but the guy to
actually move, which is ironic because I think he's the best,
like in a vacuum as a player of the three
between NOAs Reed and Rudy Gobert's value just defensively, I
like you need to like he has the least trade value,
but maybe the most on court value of that trio. Yeah,
you kind of need to move him if you want
to put like a point guard is not going to
spend a ton of time off the ball otherwise it's
you know, you're looking at just like I don't. You're
just looking at not someone who might make enough of
a difference because you don't have the assets to go
out and get a star that's gonna fit everything that
you want alongside Edwards.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, like this won't happen for a trillion reasons,
but like Haliburton is the guy that makes the most
sense next to Edwards, like and there's not there aren't
a lot of Halliburton types, Like that's just he's kind
of a one on one at the moment. All Right,
we got to add a team here, and I will
do the honors and we will now begin discussing the
Houston Rockets. Oh aware, though that's a great question. I
actually have them below the Wolves, but you're looking like
you want to put them above them, and I'm really
on the fence.
Speaker 4: You decide where they are, and.
Speaker 2: I would put them in front of the Wolves.
Speaker 1: I think, okay there, So I find myself they're similar
to the Nuggets, where I find myself having to kind
of poke holes in their offseason while also celebrating it.
And I think, you look at Houston, Kevin rant just
you make that trade eleven times out of ten for
the value that they gave up. That Jale Green contract
was not viewed favorably around the league. The offense is
going to be better and spacier. I still look at
it though, and say, yes, they have shang gun Ami
Thompson will get better. They still have Red van Vliet.
But like, here's why I'm higher on them that I
probably should be. I think that read Shepherd, it's set up.
This is what this offseason telegraphed to me. And yes,
I was bound to make this about Reed Shepherd. They're
prepared for him to play a real role, and if
the way he both defended and played on offense in
Summer League is any indication he's ready for that role.
So coming in, my question is it still feels like
they have a lack like a creation deficit from the
outside end, because that's not like, that's not Kevin Durant anymore. Right,
Like we've seen him struggle at points in his last
two playoff campaigns. Leave the numbers show like he just
doesn't fare as well against pressure. Now there's some turnover
issues there. I also have questions about is he gonna
be like what type of offense are they going to play?
Because Kevin Durant wants to play like a Kevin Durant
way he can play in any way. He's one of
the most scalable superstars we've ever seen. Is he gonna
be okay? Like kind of playing off the ball from
Shanghun or read Shepherd a bunch or are you gonna
regress into or default too? I should say, Oh, he's
gonna spend a lot of time on the ball, and
that's how we want to run our office because you're
gonna lose playmaking there. I think your turnovers will go up.
And yes, Kevin Durant is still one of the best
scorers in the game. This is I hate this. I
hate myself. I loathe everything about this discussion. But does
that do you understand what I'm saying. I'm kind of
twisted myself into a pretzel here.
Speaker 3: No, So your questions are about the offense, which is
where they have to be because defensively, we know what
the Rockets are. They're gonna be awesome. If they're not
a top five defense, I would be stunned they I
do think you're right to question, like in the biggest
of big moments, like obviously, like you add Kevin Durant
to a team that needed scoring in the playoffs and like, yeah, okay,
try to do better than that, Like that's how you
can't almost like really, it's just especially if you're like
we need a guy that's been through it and not
just theoretically able to score in the post like it's
Kevin Durant. So the offense has to be where the
questions are.
Speaker 4: I'm kind of persuaded.
Speaker 3: That at everywhere but the absolute highest levels, like we're
talking conference finals or finals. I think between the Durant addition,
the Van Vliet retention, the Shepherd like I don't know,
actually like letting him off the bench once in a while.
I think Thompson should be a little better. I think
Shan Goon might be a little better as an offensive player.
Like there's kind of enough collect Jabari Smith Junior just
got paid, like although got paid, like the Rockets tend
to do not.
Speaker 2: As much as they couldn't.
Speaker 1: I think, are they going to have like the best
run of like team friendly rookie extensions like what I
just don't.
Speaker 4: I just don't. So do you see what I'm getting at?
Speaker 3: Though, Like there's there's enough reason to expect like a
collective offensive improvement that at least, like say for the
regular season. I don't really have offensive concerns for them,
and probably in the first round, depending on the opponent,
probably not. They're like a team that like wake me
up in the second round and and maybe then the.
Speaker 4: Issue is like more pressing.
Speaker 3: But like, I do think there's enough bites at it
between Shepherd specifically and like Thompson getting better and Durant
maybe just I don't know, like if he's just Durant,
like he doesn't need to he can be the thirty
seven year old dream doesn't have to be twenty seventeen Durant.
There's enough here offensively that I'm not worried about it
until like late May, I guess is.
Speaker 1: The way to frame it, because I'm like trying to
curtail my Read Shepherd optimism because he just might be
the answer to everything we're concerned about when you look
at having the A plus level passer who can also
score from the perimeter, off the dribble and like put
defenses in just absolute scramble mode, and he might haven't.
The good thing about having Kevin Durant is his gravitational
pull where defenses are also going to default to him.
Speaker 2: That opens things up for everybody.
Speaker 1: So reed, Shepherd just might be good enough to worry
even if you have concerns before the second round about
the offense if he pops like those concerns might evaporate.
It's when you get later into the playoffs and go
up against some of those other defenses, and at that
point it's, I will, who do you want on this
team that would make you feel good going up against
Oklahoma City's defense is kind of the question, right.
Speaker 3: That's the other thing too, is I think we even
talk about Finny Smith really except in the context of
like Lakers, why didn't you keep him? I think there's
a chance this defense is better, and I think there's
a chance that this team could play so even bigger
than it.
Speaker 1: Did during last year that like Shanngun together with Jabari
and Durant.
Speaker 3: I mean, if you can play Kevin Durant at the two,
that's fine.
Speaker 4: Whatever.
Speaker 3: So there's a chance that they, like however many wins
they banked last year, just by being like bigger and
more physical, Like Easan's gonna play more too, Probably you
would you would assume like more there there.
Speaker 1: Are only so many minutes in a basketball game. We've
already given read.
Speaker 3: Cheaperdame, and like, whe where are these minutes?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: Where do you get the rest of them?
Speaker 4: I think you just bench Thompson. That's makeing prove it?
Speaker 3: Uh, I just think, how are many wins they banked
through offensive rebounding or or turnover generation or whatever, Like
add four to that total for this year, because I
think they could they'll be even bigger. Their nastiest defenders
are like not aging out. It's just like there will
be so many ways for them to pile up wins.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're If they're not, I mean, if they're not
top three in the West, I think it could be
pretty surprised at this point. Like their floor feels like
four where you can't get a wild cards.
Speaker 2: I think they're like the Clippers.
Speaker 3: Yep, I agree with that. They're really They're they're really.
Speaker 1: I'm using a veto and I am putting the Nuggets
in st here.
Speaker 4: I was thinking about a take.
Speaker 2: Did you see that coming?
Speaker 1: Giving everything that I said about the Nuggets offseason, because
it's okay to be disconnected, I think that they did
not get enough traction out of their twenty thirty two
first round pick.
Speaker 2: It's also kind of it's weird.
Speaker 1: There feels like a disconnect between I agree that this
is one of the deepest teams around Nikoliokic, but I
also feel that Nuggets fans might be tethering a lot
of value to Bruce Brown and Tim Hardaway Junior in
the year twenty twenty five, but they just pushed OKAC.
Speaker 2: To seven games.
Speaker 1: I think while all of basically all of okac's players
are at the age where they should continue to get better,
there's still offensive question marks there. I look at Denver,
if they're even a semblance of healthier, I still don't
think that they're built to navigate too much choppiness from
a Jamal. If he comes into camp out of shape
again and he's off to one of his trademarks Thow starts,
they might tumble behind in the standings in terms.
Speaker 2: Of championship equity.
Speaker 1: Though this team is really well built now like you
need contributions from I would say one of Bruce Brown
or Tim Hardaway Junior needs to hit as a signing.
And yes, Nuggets fans, I know what Bruce Brown was
during the title season.
Speaker 2: That was two years ago. Lots of change.
Speaker 1: There have been injuries, there's been other performances from him that,
if not look so great, I could see why people
have issues.
Speaker 2: I think that the issues they have with.
Speaker 1: The Nuggets are gonna end up being wrong, though, where
I think a lot of attention is going to be
paid to.
Speaker 2: Like the defense.
Speaker 1: I came out of the playoffs just feeling really good
about the state of their defense, as long as if
Aaron Gordon has like one leg or most of his
hamstrings intact. I feel pretty good about Denver's defense, assuming
yonas valan Chunas plays there. I think you're able to
buy time and space with Yolkic on the bench during
the regular season. I don't think he's going to be
as valuable in the playoffs or even close to it.
That's something to consider. I might be a little Dayron
Holmes pilled too as well. I don't know if he
could play center. I've kind of gone back and forth
whether you should be next to a big, but I
really like him. So they're deeper and if you can
buy yourself time in the regular season, that's all you
need with Jokic, because we already saw that like that
wasn't even the best version of the Nuggets, and it
wasn't the best version of Okac. I would argue Jalen
Williams had what half a rist that he was playing
on or whatever it ended up being. But the things
that they can do, there's their their offense I think
should be slightly more dynamic. With the caveat of I
don't know where the the increase in on ball dynamism
is gonna come from, because I don't think Bruce Brown
can be that player. And it's just do you think
does Christian Brown scare scale up there? I don't want
to see Tim Hardaway Junior dribbling dribbling into pull up jumpers.
I also question offensively, I think Cameron Johnson, when you
look at maybe the playmaking and the off ball movement
is an upgrade over Michael Porter Junior. On balance, I
don't know how much of an upgrade it is when
you look at the rebounding, when you look at the
defensive ceilings.
Speaker 2: Everybody, I don't. I think a lot of people say
that Cam is just way better than.
Speaker 1: MPG on defense. I I don't see it. Maybe I'll
be wrong, So there's still some questions here. But I'm
also just like, Okay, see, as dominant as they were
at points, was a flog contender, and so I think
Peple might want to put the rockets on their level.
Speaker 2: I'm not.
Speaker 1: I can't get there. Just as as the foremost reed
Shepherd fan I'm not sure that I could get there,
But I look at this Denver team and if they're
able just to say, relatively healthy, I think that there's
a chance, like how many games that Aaron Gordon miss
last year, so we've not even seen the peak of
their defense just yet. I think the player that I
might be most interested in, to just wrap it up
before I throw it to you, is just what is
Peyton Watson's role on this team, because that's someone who could,
if he's able to hit shots, turns the entire Again,
I still don't know if it's like in terms of
just on ball dynamics, there's a chance that they're sort
of lacking there. And you could also make the Kings
like do they need another wing type on this team
or is it like more of a backup floor general
that you still want to see them get There's still
like maybe a hole that would give you some type
of unease. But man, I think this team has the
potential to be like way better defensively than we're sort
of considering at the moment.
Speaker 3: So this will mess up your time stamping, I suppose,
But like the Nuggets, being in this tier is only
surprising because I imagine a lot of people thought that
the Thunder would be in the top tier by themselves.
Speaker 2: So this is an impact what he said about the Pelicans.
Speaker 1: Derek, Derek Queen Well underwent surgery to repair a torn
scapio ligament and is going to miss the It's a
leftarous injury and he's gonna miss the next He'll be
reevaluated in twelve weeks.
Speaker 2: That's a bumber.
Speaker 4: Well, that is a huge bomber.
Speaker 3: And again, this isn't about Derek Queen, like, the trade
is not about him. It's about the Pelicans. Like that's
a terrible outcome for all parties involved. Uh, the trade
is no worse today than it was when they made it,
Like the process standpoint, So just to be now the
results are much worse, the process is as bad as
it could be. No, I so we can we let's
just put the Thunder up there.
Speaker 2: Obviously, Well get my second veto is putting them in
the f tre.
Speaker 3: So I did you did you give any thought to
having the Thunder alone in a tier? Because I think
a lot of I had it there initially, and then
a lot of what you talked about with Denver specifically,
and some of the we had comments, you know, pointing
out that like Denver took them, took the Thunder to seven,
and they weren't the only team to take the Thunder
to seven. So like while the yeah, they they did,
you know, win a zillion games and they won the
title and whatever, like thought, we had thoughts about like
are the Thunder inevitable?
Speaker 4: And they did end up winning it, but.
Speaker 3: I do think that the West is closer at the
top than then It's just not fair to have the
Thunder in their own tier, they don't think.
Speaker 1: And why this is funny because I went on the
Red Nation Hoops podcast, which is not the podcast that
it might sound like.
Speaker 2: It's a Houston Rossi podcast. Uh, and I.
Speaker 1: Had the Thunder and a tier all their own, and
I had to argue me and Simon we're going back
and forth because he thinks the Rockets were closer to
them and I still don't believe that. But one the
more I sat on, I was like, his premise for
me is right. I just disagree with the team that
he thinks are on their own tier.
Speaker 3: I got you. Yeah, So the argument you would make
if you're saying the Thunder are in their own tier
relative to these other teams, And the one that kind
of convinced me until I thought about this a little harder,
is that they don't really have any situations with the
top end of their roster or even like the depth
of it that you're like, oh, this is a this
is a pivot point, or this is a question of like, yes,
if if Shay gets hurt or Jalen Williams doesn't recover
from this wrisk thing, or Chet has another catastrophic like
freak accident injury, of course, but like we've seen Jamal
Murray not be healthy and be unproductive for long stretches,
like Aaron Gordon, the injuries are piling up, like Jokicic
is a year old or not concerned about Yokics just
sort of throwing everything out there. And so like the
con concerns that I would have for Denver or the
ways I could see things going wrong, there's just more
of those than I have for the Thunder. Who I
don't know, like every literally everyone could be better other
than like Alex Caruso maybe takes a step back. So
like that's the case you make for the Thunder, like
deserving to be separate from everybody, else here, But like
the results last year just are what they are. The
Thunder's offense kind of sucked for like a lot of
important games in the postseason, and I don't know that
there's that. They didn't really do anything to change that
other than hope that all their guys get better, which
again possibility, but like they're not. They're not like this
unbeatable juggernaut. Now watch them go be that. But at
the moment from here it does feel like Denver because
of the pedigree, because they have the best player like that,
there's enough there to make this a two team tier.
The only question is should we just lump A and
the A tier and S here together and have the
Rockets and Wolves up there with those two w.
Speaker 1: Well, I can't put I wouldn't be able to put
the Wolves here. You could talk to me to the
Rockets easier, like they feel more so caught in between
B and A than in between A and SH. Just
I've man think about how many teams in the top Houston,
Minnesota and Okay, see, we just have offensive question marks
about Maybe Nico Harrison was right, grant you know what
also it is with the Thunder is I so if
you were to ask me, what's more likely that there
needs to be more than two teams in this S
tier or the Thunder in a tier all their own.
I default more to the Thunder being in a tier
all their own would be more likely. I agree with
everything you said, and like they didn't make any changes,
and you also can't trust and they kind of just
prove they don't need to, like if they know what
they need in theory, but they're not gonna necessarily go
out and make these big mid season moves. At the
same time, I kind of see in the chat like, oh,
look at the non SGA minutes. Those actually kind of
remedied themselves last year. That's like, cause it feels like
we're gonna skip over the Thunder a little bit and
not talk about them because they just won the title,
that you can't not have them an S tier. But
like they when they had Jalen Williams with another big
where it was Chet or it was Isaiah Hartenstein, they
were able, Like you got to a point where you
were winning those you're winning those minutes anyway, but you
got to a point where the offense was creeping two
league average or better. And when Jalen Williams is so young,
when Chet is so young, when you could still get
someone to pop from the case and Wallace or it's
like the aj Mitchell is a player you can get better,
And so sometimes I feel like we don't consider that
the Thunder didn't make any changes. They still the same flaws.
But just as Houston has a lot of guys that
could get better, sort of the Thunder, I find I
just find the Nuggets interesting because I don't have we
even mentioned his name more than once at this point,
Joki is still the best player in the world. Yeah,
And I like, if you're gonna give him more guys
than Tim Hardaway Junior and Bruce Brown and Cam Johnson
as well, even if he's replacing a lot of what
Michael Porter Junior did that can move off the ball.
Where I find myself again, I know it's Jokic, but
I find myself worried that they're still not built for
him to not do too much, Like it still feels
like they're like too far dependent on him. A lot
of that might come back to Jamal Murray. We know
what his highs look like. The fact that he didn't
sign an extension though, does that open the door for
things like they need to fuss and fiddle. They do
have this flexibility because of the whole point of getting
out off of Michael Porter Junior was it gave them
that other flexibility. The thing I will not hear though,
is that, well, now they can sign players who get
bought out.
Speaker 2: Who was the last buyout guy?
Speaker 1: First of all, you don't make that case to me
before they actually signed the buyout guy.
Speaker 2: I will not listen to it.
Speaker 1: Who's the last buyout guy to do anything meaningful in
the playoffs?
Speaker 3: I can't even begin to remember who.
Speaker 1: So I just and look even in the chat, like
just to kind of pump up Denver's cases, like NPJ
was playing on that really bummed shoulder, Russ had a
broken hand, but like the Russell Westbrook absence, I think
you can argue that helps them in the playoffs, But
to get through the regular season. I find myself on like, okay,
backup or secondary ballhand, like it's Jamal Murray, it's Jokic.
And then who do you want doing all of this?
Like is it Bruce Brown?
Speaker 2: Like if that's the.
Speaker 1: Answer, there's the floor who fall out from underneath them
a little bit? But I love the Nuggets as a team,
even if it's a weird thing where I think their
off season has been just overblown in terms of how
like genius it was. But I think that they're the
clear second best team in the West and closer to
the Thunder than they are further away from the Thunder.
Speaker 3: I think it's fair to say that they have, like
I want to say, like significantly more talent, but like
you know, Hardaway, Brown Valentunis aren't necessarily needle movers individually,
like I think they're just better than their options used
to be, and we've seen over and over again, like
Jokic doesn't need much, like he just needs some functional
bodies out there and he'll like make it work a
player like Hardaway, who neither of us is like loved,
but like Yokic is gonna get hard Away great shots
like that's just and Hardaway can make shots, so like
I don't.
Speaker 1: He's like he's like a less like he's streaky, but
he's slightly less streaky than Juliet Strath at this stage,
which is which is why it.
Speaker 2: Helps, which is why is this.
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe you know what the move is that
would make me be like, oh, I love this team,
and I don't think he wants to leave them, Like
this is the Chris Paul team. To me, you want
to want someone to come in and matter the offense,
like this is the Chris. I know he wants to
play closer to his family. I totally get that, But
I think I do think that the Jokic extension thing, though,
is like just there's an undercurrent to it in the
regular season where so, oh, he can guarantee himself more
money next year, That's why he did it.
Speaker 2: Sure, but he's kind of also seen that, like can
I really trust the front office to make the right
decisions here?
Speaker 1: So maybe that forces them to operate. Like think about
what they did with all that extra flexibility they have,
like kind of carved out last year, like following the casey,
like letting casep go.
Speaker 2: It kind of puts. It puts. Whether they use it
or not, it remains to be seen.
Speaker 1: But I actually think it's a good thing he didn't
sign the extension beyond just financial reasons.
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, no, I'm I was thinking of doing this.
I'm glad you did it. I'm glad you moved Denver up.
I feel like that's the right spot, would you no
shots at the team.
Speaker 2: Have any kids?
Speaker 1: Like, is there even a case though, to put Denver
above the Thunder. I can't, I can't even begin to.
Speaker 3: No, no, no, no. I just think from the perspective of
it's much easier to imagine things going wrong with Denver,
Like Denver's core players aren't going to improve, and I
think the fact that a lot of the Thunders might
is just like that puts them over the top. In
addition to they won the whole thing and they won
six sixty eight games.
Speaker 2: Or whatever it was.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they deserve to be up there. I and I
just I think I couldn't quite get Denver above them,
like maybe in the regular Noah, Denver doesn't really care
that much about the regular season. I was gonna say,
I think the Thunder have a shot to win like
quite a few fewer regular season games, but actually just
be a better playoff team because they very clearly know
what they need to fix, you know, But that's.
Speaker 1: I know, we talked about it a bunch at this point,
But do you, like, what do you make of the
Cam Johnson for MPJ swap, Like where do you where
do you think that it actually improves the nuggets or
do you think it ends up being sort of a
phone It's it's clearly not a financial wash and you
but like, just where are you at on that after
thinking about it more?
Speaker 3: I think sitting on it for a little while now,
where I've landed is I don't think there's a good
argument that it improves them, Like specifically, I don't think
you can say Cam Johnson's definitely better than MPJ. MPJ
has been more durable, like that's you know, we talked
about this when it happened. It's like that so missed
me with that one, at least over the last couple
of years. But if it is true that the savings
was the REA, like had they weren't gonna go get
Bruce brown and Tim Hardaway and Jonas valance units. Had
they not saved MO, they.
Speaker 2: Couldn't make the trade without doing that.
Speaker 1: They could have absolutely signed right Tim Hardaway Junior, Bruce
Browner on minimums that had nothing to do with the
the MPJ.
Speaker 4: That's the thing is it needs the money.
Speaker 3: The savings needs to be about where we intend to
do something with this as opposed to the kron Keys
just pay less like that. Because if that's the case,
then I don't like the trade, but especially like that
twenty thirty.
Speaker 1: I can't see versions of this from this is Dever's roh,
Cam is way better defender?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 1: How that's all I keep seeing is people posting that
and then posting percent tiles on like b ball index
is great or like posting I just tell me where
Cam Johnson is in the playoffs specific where has he
been a like a better defender.
Speaker 2: I just like, I'm this is.
Speaker 1: Not that I like think Camp Johnson a really good player,
but to talk in absolutes about the Denver offseason, I
think is why it's put a bad taste in my mouth.
It's just like, oh, no, you punted on a really
valuable asset so that you could get Cam Johnson and
uh Jonas valentiunis and give up like to and get
off Michael.
Speaker 2: Porter Junior's money. If you're sitting here and you believe
that was the.
Speaker 1: Only call they like, you need to believe that, Like
how much did that at You're better, You're deeper? How
much differently do you feel about this team as we're
talking about them right now?
Speaker 2: They're title equity.
Speaker 1: If they're sitting on not Yonas, Valentiunis and Cam and
it's mpg's like, how much does that actually change their
title equity to you?
Speaker 3: That's the thing. Yeah, it's funny, like I feel like
they're perceived tie equity is greater, but I don't know
if actually it really is because it because it just had.
Speaker 1: To give up a twenty thirty two pick to bump
it up by like dal Mory's not even trading it
to move it up one or two percent.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I think that's I think it's right. That's right,
Like it just feels like a big difference because I
don't know, had they just basically run it back, we
would have just would have somehow felt like they they
can't possibly be any better, you know, and maybe that's wrong,
but just because they're a little different, and I do,
I do think again this is independent of the trade
because it didn't like enable this to happen, I don't think.
But like Hardaway and Brown, I think I just expect
them to be like pretty good versions of themselves because
of playing with JOKICU. So yeah, I think they're there.
Title equity is greater. I don't know if it's greater
because of the trade because.
Speaker 1: I just you can say, oh, this makes it more
likely one I think they're like twelve million, or if
you put in the cap holes for Peyton Watson and
Christian Brown. A lot of my framing I've seen is, oh,
getting rid of that contract makes it more likely they're
going to stay out of the second Aprin resigned Brown
and wats unless you think Brown and Watson are gonna
make like a combined let's say thirty million, and I
would bet the over on that they're still.
Speaker 2: Gonna have Second Apron concerns.
Speaker 1: And also that's not about this season then, and if
you have Nicola Jokic, everything needs to be about the
season that you're entering. So well, look, I'm open to it.
Everyone who's mad, I mean one, get over it. Like
we're allowed to have a difference of opinion. But like
I think Michael Porter Junior was underrated during their title run.
I think as a rebounder of stuff he could do
as like a lower guy at points, probably didn't shine
through as much last year. I just I think there's
a chance that to sit here and say Cam is
a massive upgrade over MPJA, I think you need to
say absolute and not want to see it play out.
I don't really get it, but I have them as
the second best team in the West and people will
still be mad about it. Yes, I've never watched Denver games.
Just get the fuck out of here, Like, come on,
you're this is loser shit.
Speaker 2: We're allowed to have difference of opinion, like I just don't.
Speaker 3: Oh, he's not going Denver Sports isn't going at you.
Denver Sports is defending the Nuggets against the Oh.
Speaker 1: I apologize that, Denver Sports. That was an over the
top reaction and you did not deserve that. I'm out
of the Nuggets club.
Speaker 2: That's fine.
Speaker 3: Oh no, you have to turn in your gun and
badge too bad.
Speaker 2: Do you have anything else? Do you read? Do you
want to recap for us really quick?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah, so Jazz?
Speaker 3: The Jazz are alone. Sorry, fellas. In the F tier
down at the bottom, the three teams in the tier
above that are the Suns, Kings, and Pelicans. Glad we
landed on the Pelicans in the correct tier above them.
In C tier, we've got Dallas, San Antonio, Memphis, Portland
probably the most interesting tier just because who knows. With
those teams above that. In the B tier, this is.
These are teams we would imagine are competing for a
top six spot, Clippers, Warriors, Lakers. Lakers had to get
there via a veto by me. Dan hated it, so
I love it. The tier above that just too. We've
got Houston and Minnesota. These are your top four West teams.
Like if they're not up in that mix, something something
went sideways and finally s Tier championship or bust. We
have the thunder with the Ugets, which maybe is surprising
to some people, but we talked it out and it
is the correct place we could.
Speaker 2: Yeah, unimpeachable.
Speaker 1: Our takes there. Yeah, do you have anything else to
add or you ready to take us out? Sub two
hours for us?
Speaker 3: That work pretty good, pretty good despite our technical difficulties.
Thanks everybody for bearing with us, Thanks for all the
what a robust chat we had today. The Western Conference
showed up. Get it Get it together, Eastern Conference fans.
If you would like to be more engaged with the pod,
join our discord links for that in the YouTube and
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a five star rating.
Speaker 4: Wherever you're checking this out.
Speaker 2: Let us know what you think about the.
Speaker 3: Tears on YouTube and the comments there.
Speaker 4: Tell your friends, tell your enemies.
Speaker 2: I think that's gonna do it.
Speaker 3: Thanks everybody, shouts for Frink nol Keen apologies Jared Allen