Speaker 1: Ever get that feeling, you know, that feeling when a
Speaker 1: book title just kind of hits you and you're like, whoa,
Speaker 1: this is the real deal. Yeah, that's how it was
Speaker 1: for me opening up offensive shell code from scratch.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's like almost like a guidebook for for serious hackers,
Speaker 1: wouldn't you say?
Speaker 2: Definitely? It sounds intense, intense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And we're not talking about just any hacker. We're
Speaker 1: talking about those those APT groups right right, the advanced
Speaker 1: persistent threat so real masters masters exactly, the ones who
Speaker 1: are like so good they can get into anything, and.
Speaker 2: They slip past all those fancy security measures we think are.
Speaker 1: So great exactly, and shell code this is this is
Speaker 1: like one of their like their secret.
Speaker 2: Weapons, right absolutely. What's wild is that shell code. It's
Speaker 2: not like some big complex program, you know, it's more
Speaker 2: like think of it like a tiny little set of instructions, okay,
Speaker 2: hidden within the software itself, just waiting to be triggered.
Speaker 2: And often they're using vulnerabilities that the creators, the software developers,
Speaker 2: had no clue or even there.
Speaker 1: So it's like a secret passageway but built right into
Speaker 1: the walls of say a.
Speaker 2: Fortress exactly, and you'd be amazed how they find these
Speaker 2: vulnerabilities something as simple as clicking a malicious link on LinkedIn,
Speaker 2: you know, disguised as a job offer.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I've heard about those like that campaign back
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one.
Speaker 2: Right, exactly, that tricky stuff.
Speaker 1: It's scary how something so small, so seemingly insignificant, can
Speaker 1: have such huge consequences. The book keeps talking about how
Speaker 1: lightweight and efficient good shell code is almost like a
Speaker 1: badge of honor, you know, amongst these APT groups.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, it has to be because they're operating within
Speaker 2: the very fabric of the software you see, right, and
Speaker 2: they often have very limited space to work with. So
Speaker 2: every single line of code has to count maximum impact,
Speaker 2: minimal code. That's the name of the game.
Speaker 1: Okay, I get it. Efficiency is key, But when we
Speaker 1: talk about the actual damage, the real world impact, what
Speaker 1: are we talking about? What's a payload in this whole
Speaker 1: code equation?
Speaker 2: Good question. Think of it this way. You know, those
Speaker 2: messages in a bottle people throw into the ocean. The
Speaker 2: bottle itself, that's just the delivery mechanism. It's the message
Speaker 2: inside that really matters. So the shell code that's your bottle.
Speaker 2: It's expertly crafted to reach its target. But it's the payload,
Speaker 2: that message inside that actually makes something happen.
Speaker 1: So the payload could be anything from like stealing your
Speaker 1: data to taking over your entire.
Speaker 2: Computer precisely, and one of the most common ways this
Speaker 2: happens is through something called a buffer overflow attack. Imagine
Speaker 2: a box, right, and you try to force something way
Speaker 2: too big inside take a burst exactly. That's a buffer
Speaker 2: overflow in a nutshell, attackers exploit weaknesses in a program's code,
Speaker 2: making it accept more data than it can handle. This
Speaker 2: extra data, this overflow, it spills over into other areas
Speaker 2: of the system's memory, and in some cases it overwrites
Speaker 2: important data.
Speaker 1: And that's where the shell code comes in, right, hiding
Speaker 1: in that overflow, just weighing to pounce exactly.
Speaker 2: If it's done right, the shell code can actually redirect
Speaker 2: the entire flow of the program, making it run the
Speaker 2: malicious instructions that are hidden within the payload. And this
Speaker 2: is where those APT groups, those elite hackers, they really
Speaker 2: get sophisticated.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the book gave an example, something about the Lazarus group.
Speaker 2: Oh right, the researchers over at Checkpoint, they discovered that
Speaker 2: this group. They used a harmless looking macro to hide
Speaker 2: a really advanced piece of shell code. Wow, and this
Speaker 2: allowed them to slip past all the typical defenses and
Speaker 2: deliver their malicious payload right under everyone's noses.
Speaker 1: That's some real spy thriller stuff right there. It makes
Speaker 1: you wonder what other tricks these guys have up their sleeves. Right,
Speaker 1: Speaking of tricks, this book it goes into all these
Speaker 1: different types of shell code. It's like a whole secret world.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, It's incredibly diverse. There's no one size fits
Speaker 2: all approach. Each type has its own unique way of
Speaker 2: exploiting a system. You know, its strengths, its weaknesses.
Speaker 1: Like what exactly is egg hunter shell code? I gotta
Speaker 1: admit it sounds kind of fun, like an Easter egg
Speaker 1: hunt in the digital.
Speaker 2: World's right, Yeah, egg Hunter? It does have a certain
Speaker 2: ring to it. Yeah, but trust me, it's not as
Speaker 2: innocent as it sounds.
Speaker 1: Okay, so not your average Easter egg hunt.
Speaker 2: Then not quite. It's actually a really clever technique. Imagine this.
Speaker 2: An attacker finds a vulnerability, but there's not a lot
Speaker 2: of room to inject their shell code.
Speaker 1: Okay, so they got to be sneaky about it exactly.
Speaker 2: They need something small, something super efficient that can then
Speaker 2: find the rest of their malicious.
Speaker 1: Code, like a scout right going ahead to secure the
Speaker 1: area before the main force arrives.
Speaker 2: Perfect analogy. That's your egg hunter code. It goes in
Speaker 2: first plants a unique marker the egg somewhere in the
Speaker 2: system's memory, and that then it releases this tiny piece
Speaker 2: of code that's designed to scan for that specific marker.
Speaker 2: I'm with you so far, and once it finds it, boom,
Speaker 2: it knows where to pull in the bigger, more complex
Speaker 2: shell code.
Speaker 1: So it's not about brute force, it's more about being
Speaker 1: smart using the system's own memory against itself. This book
Speaker 1: really makes you appreciate the creativity involved.
Speaker 2: In all this, oh yeah, for sure. And speaking of
Speaker 2: creative reflective DLL injection, that's another one that caught my eye.
Speaker 2: Sounds like something out of a spy.
Speaker 1: Movie, right, tell me more about this one. It sounds
Speaker 1: seriously sneaky, Oh it is.
Speaker 2: This one really shows how attackers are always adapting to
Speaker 2: get around security measures. So traditionally injecting a malicious DLL
Speaker 2: that's a dynamic link library. It's kind of like a
Speaker 2: mini program right, got injecting that into a running process.
Speaker 2: That was a pretty common way to get malicious code running.
Speaker 1: Makes sense. But I'm guessing security software caught onto that
Speaker 1: pretty quickly.
Speaker 2: You bet they did. Antivirus programs got pretty good at
Speaker 2: detecting those injected DLLs. So what did the attackers do?
Speaker 2: They upped their game with reflective DLL injection.
Speaker 1: Sounds ominous.
Speaker 2: Instead of having a separate, suspicious looking file, they started
Speaker 2: writing their malicious code directly into the target processes memory.
Speaker 1: Sneaky, so it's already inside the system, disguised as something.
Speaker 2: Harmless, exactly like smuggling something dangerous past security by making
Speaker 2: it look like it belongs there.
Speaker 1: Clever.
Speaker 2: And the key to this whole disguise act is the
Speaker 2: reflective loader.
Speaker 1: Okay, what's that? Then?
Speaker 2: It's basically this little piece of code that knows how
Speaker 2: to unpack and execute that malicious code once it's safely inside.
Speaker 1: So it's like the malicious code's own personal assistant making
Speaker 1: sure it gets in undetected.
Speaker 2: That's a great way to put it.
Speaker 1: It makes you wonder how much of this is going
Speaker 1: on without us even realizing it.
Speaker 2: That's the thing about cybersecurity. It's this constant cat and
Speaker 2: mouse game. Attackers find a new way in, defenders catch on,
Speaker 2: and the cycle repeats itself.
Speaker 1: And speaking of cat and mouse, what about download and execute?
Speaker 1: That sounds pretty self explanatory, but I'm guessing it's more
Speaker 1: complicated than it sounds.
Speaker 2: You got it. This one highlights how attackers bypass those
Speaker 2: security features we often take for granted. Imagine a piece
Speaker 2: of shell code, right, okay, but this shell code, it's
Speaker 2: like a tiny program and its whole job is to
Speaker 2: slip past your defenses, get into your system and download
Speaker 2: an even bigger, more malicious payload from the internet.
Speaker 1: So it's like that scout again, but this time it's
Speaker 1: lowering the drawbridge from the inside exactly.
Speaker 2: And the sneaky part is they often use legitimate Windows
Speaker 2: components to avoid detection. Wait really, yeah, the book mentioned
Speaker 2: something called Erleman dot dll.
Speaker 1: Okay, you're losing me a bit with the technical jargon.
Speaker 2: Sorry. It's basically a system library. Think of it like
Speaker 2: a set of tools that Windows uses to handle Internet downloads. Right,
Speaker 2: attackers figured out how to leverage functions within this library
Speaker 2: to download their malicious payload without raising any red flags.
Speaker 2: There's a function called url download to file for example.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm trusting you on the technical details here.
Speaker 2: The point is they're hijacking a legitimate system process.
Speaker 1: Wow. So it's like they're blending in with the crowd,
Speaker 1: making their malicious activity look like normal Internet traffic exactly.
Speaker 2: And that's what makes this whole field so challenging. It's
Speaker 2: an ongoing battle of wits.
Speaker 1: You've said it before, but it's worth repeating. Understand and
Speaker 1: how these attacks work. That's the first step to protecting ourselves, right.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, knowledge is power. The more we know about these tactics,
Speaker 2: the better equipped we are to defend against them.
Speaker 1: Right, Because cybersecurity isn't just about strong passwords anymore. It's
Speaker 1: about understanding this whole complex world of attack and defense.
Speaker 2: Couldn't have said it better myself. And thankfully the book
Speaker 2: doesn't just leave us hanging with all this scary attack stuff.
Speaker 2: It also goes into countermeasures, those defenses that are being
Speaker 2: developed to stop these attacks in their tracks.
Speaker 1: Okay, tell me more about those. How do you even
Speaker 1: begin to defend again, something as sneaky and sophisticated as
Speaker 1: shell code.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good thing, right, because it can get
Speaker 2: kind of overwhelming thinking about all the ways they can
Speaker 2: get in. But I'm glad someone's out there building those defenses.
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, And trust me, for every attack out there,
Speaker 1: there's a whole team of people working on ways to
Speaker 1: stop it. The book dives into three main countermeasures, ASLR, deep,
Speaker 1: and stack cookies.
Speaker 2: Okay, let's break those down. Then. What is ASLR all about?
Speaker 2: The book made it sound like, I don't know, like
Speaker 2: shuffling a deck of cards or something to confuse the attacker.
Speaker 1: That's a pretty good analogy actually. ASLR stands for address
Speaker 1: space layout randomization. Basically, it shuffles around the locations of
Speaker 1: important data in your computer's memory. So instead of finding
Speaker 1: that data at a predictable address, the attacker is left guessing.
Speaker 1: So their malicious code it could end up pointing at
Speaker 1: like the wrong address, causing a system crash. Instead of
Speaker 1: doing what they.
Speaker 2: Want exactly, it throws a wrench in their plans, makes
Speaker 2: it way harder to exploit those vulnerabilities.
Speaker 1: Okay, that makes sense. What about DP sounds pretty serious.
Speaker 2: It is dep data execution prevention. That's like putting up
Speaker 2: keep out signs around certain areas of your computer's memory.
Speaker 1: So even if an attacker does manage to get their
Speaker 1: code in, they can't actually run it in those protected areas.
Speaker 2: Exactly. It's like breaking into a house but then finding
Speaker 2: out you can't turn on the lights or use the kitchen.
Speaker 1: You're stuck. I like it. And then there's stack cookie
Speaker 1: that sounds almost delicious, but something tells me it's.
Speaker 2: Not definitely not as tasty as they sound. Think of
Speaker 2: stack cookies like hidden alarms, strategically placed to detect if
Speaker 2: someone's messing with the system's memory.
Speaker 1: So it's like a way for the system to say, hey,
Speaker 1: someone's trying to break in here.
Speaker 2: Exactly. It's all about early detection.
Speaker 1: This is fascinating stuff. But even with all these defenses,
Speaker 1: it sounds like the attackers are always finding new ways to,
Speaker 1: I don't know, to up their game. The book mentioned
Speaker 1: something called ROP return oriented programming, and it sounds like
Speaker 1: that's one way they can bypass even those clever countermeasures.
Speaker 2: Yeah, unfortunately, right, ROP is a whole other level of
Speaker 2: sneaky how attackers can get around things like dep that
Speaker 2: keep out system we talked about. Imagine imagine an attacker
Speaker 2: who wants to build a specific, I don't know, a contraption,
Speaker 2: but they've only got a limited set of lego blocks. Okay,
Speaker 2: so instead of building it from scratch, they got to
Speaker 2: get creative, right, find new ways to combine those limited
Speaker 2: pieces to get what they want.
Speaker 1: Rop's like, what repurposing existing code? Yeah, kind of like
Speaker 1: finding a new use for those legos exactly.
Speaker 2: With ROP, attackers use these existing code snippets. They're called gadgets,
Speaker 2: and each one performs a small, specific action. By chaining
Speaker 2: these gadgets together in just the right way, they can
Speaker 2: actually manipulate the program bypass those dep restrictions and execute
Speaker 2: their own code.
Speaker 1: It's like they're picking the lock on those keep out
Speaker 1: signs exactly.
Speaker 2: It's a constant back and forth, always trying to outsmart
Speaker 2: each other.
Speaker 1: Wow. This entire deep dive into offensive shell code from
Speaker 1: scratch has been eye opening, to say the least. It's
Speaker 1: like taking a crash course in the world of I
Speaker 1: don't know, like digital espionage or something.
Speaker 2: It really gives you a new perspective, doesn't it. And
Speaker 2: the thing is this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Speaker 1: There's always more to learn.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, this field is constantly evolving, so staying ahead of
Speaker 2: the curve is crucial.
Speaker 1: Well said, and hey, who knows, maybe one of our
Speaker 1: listeners will be the next cybersecurity expert to develop a
Speaker 1: groundbreaking countermeasure. But until then, it's about staying informed, staying vigilant.
Speaker 2: Couldn't agree more knowledge is power, folks.
Speaker 1: And on that note, we'll wrap up this deep dive
Speaker 1: into the world of offensive shell code. Thanks for joining us,
Speaker 1: and we'll see you in the next one.