WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.200 Why would a web three company buy, you know, a 2 00:00:03.240 --> 00:00:06.639 genomics company, right, And so this follows on the heels 3 00:00:07.280 --> 00:00:12.599 of the same foundation's announcement a couple months ago early 4 00:00:12.720 --> 00:00:14.759 this year, I think it was January February, we announced 5 00:00:14.759 --> 00:00:16.600 a sixty five million dollar DECI fund. 6 00:00:21.719 --> 00:00:24.239 This episode is brought to you by Uphold, which is 7 00:00:24.280 --> 00:00:27.440 a great crypto platform that makes it easy to buy, sell, 8 00:00:27.640 --> 00:00:32.600 and stay crypto assets. Uphold has over three hundred plus cryptocurrencies, 9 00:00:32.640 --> 00:00:35.640 including Bitcoin in all the top all coins, and they 10 00:00:35.719 --> 00:00:40.399 offer a crypto staking on over nineteen crypto assets. I've 11 00:00:40.399 --> 00:00:43.039 been a user of the platform for many years. They 12 00:00:43.079 --> 00:00:46.399 are safe and reliable, they don't commingle or lend out 13 00:00:46.399 --> 00:00:49.920 your crypto funds, and they are one hundred percent reserve. 14 00:00:50.240 --> 00:00:54.240 You can review their transparency report. Uphold also offers an 15 00:00:54.320 --> 00:00:57.240 amazing rewards program where you can earn up to five 16 00:00:57.280 --> 00:01:01.439 point two five percent on stable coins. Rewards program also 17 00:01:01.479 --> 00:01:04.400 allows you to get twenty four hour early access to 18 00:01:04.519 --> 00:01:07.879 new tokens that they list, and to participate, you just 19 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:10.959 simply have to open the app once per month, deposit 20 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:13.719 fifty dollars once per month, and trade fifty dollars once 21 00:01:13.760 --> 00:01:17.480 per month and the stable coins that they support includes ripples, 22 00:01:17.640 --> 00:01:19.959 r l USD. You can earn up to five percent 23 00:01:20.359 --> 00:01:23.359 on that stable coin and five point twenty five percent 24 00:01:23.480 --> 00:01:26.480 on USBC. So if you do like to learn more 25 00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:29.640 about Uphold and all the great services they offer, visit 26 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:33.439 the link in the description. Welcome into the Thinking Crypto Podcast. 27 00:01:33.480 --> 00:01:35.719 I'm your host, Tony Edward, and joining me today is 28 00:01:35.799 --> 00:01:39.159 Gerald Gallagher, who's the general counsel for SAY Labs and 29 00:01:39.319 --> 00:01:43.040 a board member of the Say Development Foundation. Jerald, Great 30 00:01:43.040 --> 00:01:43.319 to have. 31 00:01:43.359 --> 00:01:46.359 You, Thanks for having me, Tony. Good to be here, Jerald. 32 00:01:46.359 --> 00:01:49.319 Great updates happening around SAY So. I have a lot 33 00:01:49.319 --> 00:01:50.920 of questions for you and all the great things you 34 00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:54.159 folks are doing at the labs and the foundation and 35 00:01:54.280 --> 00:01:56.519 much more. But let's kick it off with your background. 36 00:01:56.640 --> 00:01:58.920 Tell us about yourself and how'd you get into crypto. 37 00:01:59.719 --> 00:02:01.040 Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. 38 00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:03.719 I had kind of a winding I feel like very 39 00:02:03.719 --> 00:02:05.840 few people have a traditional path in the crypto but 40 00:02:05.879 --> 00:02:07.760 I've been full time in the industry on the legal 41 00:02:07.799 --> 00:02:12.479 side for coming up on five years now. I started 42 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:15.080 out so I did JDMBA and was coming out of 43 00:02:15.080 --> 00:02:18.000 school right around when like the ico bubble, you know, 44 00:02:18.080 --> 00:02:21.240 kind of grew and then bursts, and so crypto kind 45 00:02:21.240 --> 00:02:24.240 of initially was off the table, but I was fascinated 46 00:02:24.280 --> 00:02:26.479 by kind of the structuring, and some of those discussions 47 00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:29.840 ended up going into what I call like the heavily 48 00:02:29.879 --> 00:02:36.479 regulated industries, you know, VC doing life health insurance, fintech, 49 00:02:36.840 --> 00:02:39.479 insure tech, some of those areas. So I was in 50 00:02:39.560 --> 00:02:42.919 venture for about four years prior to making the jump 51 00:02:42.919 --> 00:02:45.960 full time. And then the way I actually got sort 52 00:02:45.960 --> 00:02:48.919 of red pilled or kind of down the orange pill 53 00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:50.800 or down the rabbit hole, however you want to talk 54 00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:53.240 about it is a couple of my buddies are actually 55 00:02:53.240 --> 00:02:57.159 the guys who started Constitution Now. So we were living 56 00:02:57.199 --> 00:03:01.759 in Atlanta at the time. They so, so I shout out. 57 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:07.120 Graham Novak and Austin Kane hit me up and say 58 00:03:07.159 --> 00:03:09.240 we have this idea. You know, we're gonna buy a 59 00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:13.520 copy of the Constitution. And I said, that's a terrible idea, 60 00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:17.919 don't do that, and so uh so, yeah, and then 61 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:19.520 you know, they kind of took and ran with that. 62 00:03:19.639 --> 00:03:22.919 The rest is history. So I had kind of very 63 00:03:22.919 --> 00:03:26.879 early eyes on that. I was one of three attorneys. 64 00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:29.400 I don't want to claim too much credit for you know, 65 00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:32.039 contributing the structure there, but was one of three attorneys 66 00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:35.080 basically in a Google doc after they had raised fifty 67 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:37.159 million bucks in the juice box wallet, trying to figure 68 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:39.800 out how to go to Sotheby's uh and buy something 69 00:03:39.800 --> 00:03:43.080 with a juice box wallet from Sotheby's. So that was 70 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:46.919 my kind of initial exposure. I had been doing a 71 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:49.599 lot of like capital formation work, a lot of sort 72 00:03:49.639 --> 00:03:54.879 of like heavily regulated structuring, and so that that was 73 00:03:54.960 --> 00:03:57.479 kind of the dive and I figured out, you know, 74 00:03:58.520 --> 00:04:00.960 maybe this this wasn't like the you know that was 75 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:02.639 going to carry me through the next four years, but 76 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:06.919 really interesting kind of early experience, and then ended up 77 00:04:07.520 --> 00:04:10.439 going ahead of legal into into another company from there, 78 00:04:10.520 --> 00:04:11.879 so that was kind of the beginning. 79 00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:15.879 And then you're also one of the hosts on the 80 00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:17.879 Crypto and America podcast. 81 00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:20.560 Right, Yeah, So that's been a blast, co host that 82 00:04:20.680 --> 00:04:25.560 with Eleanor Tarrett and Jackie Melnik, who does Token relations. Obviously, 83 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:28.240 we were really really lucky to kind of steal Eleanor 84 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:31.639 away from Fox. And you know, I can tell you that, 85 00:04:31.959 --> 00:04:34.680 you know, I really admire what you do because you know, 86 00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:38.879 hosting a podcast is no joke. From a commitment perspective. 87 00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:40.480 But you know, we've been really lucky to have the 88 00:04:40.519 --> 00:04:42.600 guests on that we've had, and you know, a lot 89 00:04:42.600 --> 00:04:44.240 of fun to work with them. So it's been good. 90 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:44.800 Yeah. 91 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:47.199 I know both of them very well. And Ellie doesn't 92 00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:49.160 live far from me. I think she's like fifteen minutes away. 93 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:51.879 We met up for coffee and things like that, and 94 00:04:51.959 --> 00:04:54.879 I really enjoyed the conversations you three have had with 95 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:59.160 your guests as well. Now, I really wanted to go 96 00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:02.120 back to accounts Institution now because it just fascinates me 97 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:04.279 that you can buy a copy of the Constitution and 98 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:07.680 it's amazing that you set up this Web three infrastructure 99 00:05:07.720 --> 00:05:10.959 to do so. And I'm not fully up to date 100 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:14.800 with everything, but so you the dow still owns that 101 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:18.279 that document, and what's the future plans around that. 102 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:21.759 Yeah, no, it's a it's a great question. So famously, 103 00:05:21.879 --> 00:05:26.720 they they actually lost the auction to Ken Griffith Okay, yeah, 104 00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:30.079 from from a citadel, so he kind of came in 105 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:32.839 and like rugged them at the last minute. The funny 106 00:05:32.839 --> 00:05:36.560 thing is, you know, the beauty of crypto is that 107 00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:40.879 everything is transparent, including your balance, right, So if you're 108 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:43.319 in an auction one on one situation with somebody else 109 00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:45.839 with deep pockets, you know, they can do kind of 110 00:05:45.879 --> 00:05:48.160 real time calculations. So I need to beat you by 111 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:50.920 you know, the fees and everything else built on top 112 00:05:50.920 --> 00:05:52.959 of it. I can beat you by you know, a dollar. 113 00:05:54.439 --> 00:05:57.000 And so what ended up happening with that, it was 114 00:05:57.040 --> 00:05:59.800 it was really interesting. Uh, there was a there was 115 00:05:59.800 --> 00:06:03.560 a token swap from ETH to the native token, which 116 00:06:03.639 --> 00:06:06.879 is called people. At the time, I still kind of contend. 117 00:06:06.879 --> 00:06:08.839 I think it was like the first true like meme coin, 118 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:14.680 and so gas fees at the time were really really high. 119 00:06:14.680 --> 00:06:15.240 If you remember. 120 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:18.079 This was like, you know, November twenty twenty one somewhere 121 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:21.319 around there, and it was I think basically if you 122 00:06:21.319 --> 00:06:24.480 put two hundred bucks into the juice box wallet, it 123 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:26.079 was going to cost you like two hundred bucks in 124 00:06:26.120 --> 00:06:28.720 gas to get it out. So they had a redemption 125 00:06:28.839 --> 00:06:32.560 period saying you know, hey, you know we lost get 126 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:35.519 your ETH back. What ended up happening is a lot 127 00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:38.079 of people actually left their funds in there, and then 128 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:41.360 the token later kind of mooned after they had you 129 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:45.040 know that, there was no constitution now, it was it 130 00:06:45.079 --> 00:06:47.720 was just a sert of wallet and a signature and 131 00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:51.839 it ended up moving like seventy x or something, which 132 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:54.079 I think made some people very happy, but was like 133 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:56.439 obviously a you know, really interesting experience for the team. 134 00:06:57.360 --> 00:06:59.600 And then I think also like it was one of 135 00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:02.000 the best things that could have happened to that team. 136 00:07:02.040 --> 00:07:05.000 They all went to, you know, really interesting roles afterwards, 137 00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:08.120 some of them you're obviously doing interesting things already, but 138 00:07:09.319 --> 00:07:11.120 you know, yeah, it was. It was a really interesting, 139 00:07:11.240 --> 00:07:14.079 kind of very very bullmarket twenty twenty one experience. 140 00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:17.160 But yeah, that was a fun time. 141 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:20.079 Yeah, it's so fascinating, and you know, I'm still trying 142 00:07:20.079 --> 00:07:22.720 to learn more about dows and what can be done 143 00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:24.560 with them. You know, does it make sense for a 144 00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:27.000 podcast that create a DAO and things like that, and 145 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:30.959 how can it benefit the listeners and viewers? You know, 146 00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:33.600 how do you see doos in the future, you know, 147 00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:36.920 do you see companies building them or it's more crowdsource 148 00:07:37.000 --> 00:07:38.279 decentralized type thing. 149 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:43.360 Yeah, I think the there's a couple different, Like when 150 00:07:43.399 --> 00:07:46.959 you're talking about a DOW right like so decentralized atonomous organization. 151 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:51.040 One of the hardest parts of that has always been 152 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:54.879 this misnover of autonomous right A dow cannot like really 153 00:07:54.959 --> 00:07:58.319 run itself. Maybe we'll see like agentic AI start to 154 00:07:58.399 --> 00:08:02.480 change some things in that field. For me, the interesting 155 00:08:02.519 --> 00:08:05.160 piece has always been the structuring. What do you wrap 156 00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:08.720 that around right? Because in the US we have general partnership, 157 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:11.319 we have joint in several liability. This is how some 158 00:08:11.399 --> 00:08:14.079 other projects have gotten knocked in the past. So you 159 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:16.600 can have something like an LLC that was basically what 160 00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:21.120 ended up going to bid at Sebeby's was an accredited 161 00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:25.120 investor LLC. You can have Miles Jennings and David Kerve 162 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:27.360 worked really hard on this Duna structure, which is also 163 00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:31.720 pretty new, kind of untested, and then you know, there's 164 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:34.240 sort of the classic kind of larger project. If you 165 00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:36.320 think about what a lot of these Caman foundations do, 166 00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:39.879 they're a rapper for the Dow Treasury. So that's that's 167 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:43.039 essentially you need legal protection first, and then the other 168 00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:44.480 thing is like what are you going to do with 169 00:08:44.519 --> 00:08:46.679 the token? So if you if you said something like 170 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:49.840 a creator sort of dow or like a revenue shared dow. 171 00:08:49.919 --> 00:08:51.480 I've also done a lot of work on what's called 172 00:08:51.480 --> 00:08:55.240 a limited cooperative association that's kind of a one to 173 00:08:55.320 --> 00:08:59.720 one basically membership interest federal securities exemption, you can distribute 174 00:08:59.720 --> 00:09:03.519 token and profits to the members of the DOW. I 175 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:07.000 think we're gonna see it became kind of like a 176 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:09.080 a like an overly abused term kind of in the 177 00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:12.679 last cycle. And you know, everything's a dow and nothing 178 00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:16.120 is a dow, and you know democracy is messy, coordination 179 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:20.000 is messy. So you know, I think it'd be interesting 180 00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:22.480 where you have a group of people kind of contributing 181 00:09:22.519 --> 00:09:26.159 to a common asset, whether that's like a DeFi protocol 182 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:30.679 or you know, something like a common media interest. I've 183 00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:34.080 seen interesting ones around, like design collectives things like that. 184 00:09:34.440 --> 00:09:35.799 I could definitely see something. 185 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:38.679 Like a podcast or a set of creators creating something 186 00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:41.279 where you know, the principles line up with the way 187 00:09:41.320 --> 00:09:45.000 you want basically revenue or money to flow back to 188 00:09:45.320 --> 00:09:47.159 the users and the holders and that kind of stuff. 189 00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:48.759 I think it'll be interesting to see how that goes 190 00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:49.120 for sure. 191 00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:53.799 Yeah, absolutely, And yeah I'm looking to possibly explore that, 192 00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:55.200 but I you know, I used to have a lot 193 00:09:55.240 --> 00:09:58.120 to learn, but I'm also thinking about how businesses can 194 00:09:58.200 --> 00:09:59.720 use it, maybe brands and things like that. 195 00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:01.399 If makes sense, and. 196 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:06.000 Eventually, you know, there's further iterations, maybe those more unique things. 197 00:10:06.039 --> 00:10:10.000 I don't know, but yeah, something explore. All right, let's 198 00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:13.399 talk about SAY. So tell us about Say. What is Say? 199 00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:15.919 What's its mission and what makes it unique? 200 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:16.639 Yeah? 201 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:20.720 So, Say is a layer one blockchain built on the EVM. 202 00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:25.600 I think we recently announced SIP to deprecate some of 203 00:10:25.639 --> 00:10:29.840 the Cosmolaism architecture, and so we're just gonna focus on 204 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:30.279 the EVM. 205 00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:30.519 Now. 206 00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:35.000 Parallel evm is is kind of the bread and butter 207 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:39.000 of SAY. It was founded Say Labs, the dev shop 208 00:10:39.080 --> 00:10:43.200 behind the same protocol, was founded by Jay Jog and 209 00:10:43.320 --> 00:10:48.399 Jeff Fang who met each other at Berkeley and really 210 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:51.799 honestly was like built during the Bear You know a 211 00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:54.960 lot of grit in that team, and we have some 212 00:10:55.000 --> 00:10:59.960 really interesting things cooking at this point. The I guess 213 00:11:00.279 --> 00:11:03.279 the main idea of SAY is that you take the 214 00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:09.360 speed of Solana and you combine it with the basically 215 00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:12.000 deb environment of ethereum. So that's that's kind of the 216 00:11:12.039 --> 00:11:12.759 goal there. 217 00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:16.279 Got it? And what type of protocol does it have? 218 00:11:16.519 --> 00:11:16.720 Is it? 219 00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:19.480 You know, like you have proof of steak, proof of authority? 220 00:11:19.679 --> 00:11:22.679 What protocol does it use? And you know, does that 221 00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:25.919 help with the decentralization and the speed as well. 222 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:27.440 Yeah, it's a good question. 223 00:11:27.559 --> 00:11:29.440 So one is it is a proof of stake network, 224 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:33.120 and then two is that decentralization question is really interesting, 225 00:11:33.159 --> 00:11:34.360 So say is decentralized. 226 00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:37.000 At this point they're about forty validators. 227 00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:43.639 The idea of decentralition decentralization is interesting just because I 228 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:45.360 spend I spend a lot of time on the sort 229 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:47.919 of the policy side of that, and I think if 230 00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:51.480 if you ask thirty lawyers to define decentralization for you, 231 00:11:51.480 --> 00:11:54.240 you're gonna get thirty different answers. 232 00:11:54.679 --> 00:11:54.840 You know. 233 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:57.360 Uh, There's been a lot of work done recently for 234 00:11:57.399 --> 00:12:01.399 the market structuring bill on like whether or not there's 235 00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:04.840 control of one party over the network. So SAY definitely 236 00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:08.000 has a big focus on decentralization. I think the goal 237 00:12:08.120 --> 00:12:11.399 is to just make sort of the cheapest, highest throughput 238 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:14.960 chain you know, possible and explore all the applications that 239 00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:15.799 can enable. 240 00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:20.120 Yeah, for sure. And speed is such a big factor 241 00:12:20.279 --> 00:12:24.120 for adoption. I mean, consumers they want things to be 242 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:27.480 done at a click, up a button, they want load 243 00:12:27.480 --> 00:12:31.240 transaction fees, and I've noticed that, you know, Solana took 244 00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:34.519 a lot of market share from ethereum, not you know, 245 00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:38.600 certain types and maybe not enterprise, but just consumer interacting 246 00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:41.840 with different users being able to make quick applications. So 247 00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:45.320 I think the fastest blockchains, and I don't think it's 248 00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:48.320 just gonna be one but multiple, will be the ones 249 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:50.879 that get the real world adoption and powered as Web 250 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:51.759 three infrastructure. 251 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:54.480 Yeah, I think it's an interesting point. 252 00:12:54.559 --> 00:12:59.759 Solana, you know, was this kind of like all side chain, 253 00:13:00.279 --> 00:13:02.639 you know, back in when I'm sure you know when 254 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:06.279 since you and I have been in the industry. You know, 255 00:13:06.279 --> 00:13:09.159 it obviously went through kind of the FTX drama and 256 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:13.320 everything associated with that, but you know it used to 257 00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:15.720 get ragged on a lot, and so you know, full 258 00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:18.480 full transparency. I also came out was one of my 259 00:13:18.519 --> 00:13:20.399 first jobs as GC and COO of a company that 260 00:13:20.440 --> 00:13:23.919 spun out of Salona Labs, and so you know, definitely 261 00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:26.480 a lot of respect for what they've built. I think 262 00:13:26.600 --> 00:13:30.000 you hit on an important point, which is Solana's mote 263 00:13:30.039 --> 00:13:35.600 I think to this point has been rust. So if 264 00:13:35.639 --> 00:13:39.080 you if you got into Solana in sort of the 265 00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:43.159 previous bowl and you you force yourself to eat glass 266 00:13:43.159 --> 00:13:46.279 as they say, and learn rust, and then the bottom 267 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:48.639 fell out or your app didn't work, well, you've learned 268 00:13:48.679 --> 00:13:50.759 rust Like you put all this effort into it, You're 269 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:52.679 you're not going to go to another chain, You're just 270 00:13:52.679 --> 00:13:55.919 gonna build something else on Solana, And so obviously it 271 00:13:55.960 --> 00:13:58.879 came back. It's got a very sticky dev community, and 272 00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:02.240 I think one of the challenges that Ethereum has had 273 00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:05.440 is there was the L two's right, and there were 274 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:07.720 a lot of very interesting applications. I think there's a 275 00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:10.200 lot of very interesting academic work that's been done there. 276 00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:13.960 But now there seems to be a big refocusing, particularly 277 00:14:14.039 --> 00:14:17.000 in this kind of EVM space that we occupy on 278 00:14:17.240 --> 00:14:19.840 building things for the consumer, building things that are fast, 279 00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:25.000 that actually work, you know, that that users can use right, 280 00:14:25.039 --> 00:14:28.120 which is which is obviously important, and then having the 281 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:32.399 dev community be able to sort of jump and build 282 00:14:32.679 --> 00:14:35.360 you know, what they want is I think an advantage 283 00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:37.919 that will hopefully play out long term for you know, 284 00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:39.320 builders of the EVM. 285 00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:40.559 Yeah, for sure. 286 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:41.240 Yeah. 287 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:44.519 I noticed that with the recent upgrade around etherorem and 288 00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:49.200 just a realignment of focus back on getting you to 289 00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:52.039 lead on the layer one versus all these layer two 290 00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:55.639 roll ups. I mean, there's so many L threes, L four's. 291 00:14:55.399 --> 00:14:57.759 Yeah, let's l it all. Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's 292 00:14:57.799 --> 00:14:59.759 an interesting time for sure. Yeah. Sure. 293 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:04.240 And then so for per se and as an L one, 294 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:08.440 I'm assuming you're targeting tokenization and different use cases. Are 295 00:15:08.440 --> 00:15:12.120 there particular industries that you're looking to maybe find a 296 00:15:12.200 --> 00:15:14.080 swim lane in, or is just across the board? 297 00:15:14.679 --> 00:15:19.519 Yeah, So I think when you're building low fee high tps, right, 298 00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:23.759 you want to attack use cases that need to utilize 299 00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:27.399 those features, right, And so I think finance. 300 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:29.440 Those types of areas. 301 00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:33.960 You could say AI decentralized computing in general obviously needs 302 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:38.080 to be able to invact enact very like cheaply and quickly, 303 00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:44.000 but things like tokenization are obviously super important. The I 304 00:15:44.039 --> 00:15:47.039 guess the sort of new rails, you know, and I 305 00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:49.159 have this debate with a lot of people about whether 306 00:15:49.159 --> 00:15:54.559 we're going to get more exposure for traditional traditional assets 307 00:15:54.559 --> 00:15:57.480 to be tokenized, right, so whether you know, JP Morgan 308 00:15:57.519 --> 00:15:59.320 stock is going to be built on the back of 309 00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:03.000 something they say, or whether we're going to continue to 310 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:06.879 get more sort of crypto exposure into mainstream markets. 311 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:07.120 Right. 312 00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:09.559 So, the ETFs and you know, some of those areas, 313 00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:14.879 but for say, the focus right now is definitely finance. 314 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:18.320 Uh you know, we're I think we're gonna talk a 315 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:23.120 little bit about d s I AI and and you 316 00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:24.639 know a lot of a lot of those use cases 317 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:27.159 uh you know that that need architecture, they can do 318 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:27.679 what we do. 319 00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:30.639 Oh for sure. So speaking of ds I AND it's 320 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:35.639 funny because you can also maybe say sci fi. Yeah, 321 00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:39.960 there's news of say potentially acquiring twenty three and meters. 322 00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:42.799 What can you tell us there? And if you are 323 00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:45.799 able to acquire this company, what would you know the 324 00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:48.360 use cases and utility be built around this? 325 00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:49.799 Yeah for sure. 326 00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:53.600 So I have to be careful here, you know, just 327 00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:56.159 because of where we are in the process, if we 328 00:16:56.200 --> 00:16:59.759 are involved in the process, right, So now I'll just 329 00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:03.360 kind of comment on what's publicly available, and then obviously, 330 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:05.200 you know, we'd love to talk about sort of where 331 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:08.400 where somebody could go with that or you know, a 332 00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:13.079 vision for a decide project like that. So yeah, twenty 333 00:17:13.160 --> 00:17:16.279 three and ME went into bankruptcy proceedings I think. 334 00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:17.720 Maybe a month and a half ago. 335 00:17:17.799 --> 00:17:21.400 Now don't quote me on that date, but that was 336 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:24.559 actually after a long kind of process of seeing if 337 00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:27.680 they could find an acquire I know the founder was 338 00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:31.880 trying to pull a bid together. It doesn't look like 339 00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:34.519 that worked out, and so the company ended up in 340 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:38.519 kind of Chapter eleven worlds. So when a company goes 341 00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:43.599 into bankruptcy, there's this very sort of long process, and 342 00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:48.480 it's very procedural where everybody kind of digs in and 343 00:17:48.519 --> 00:17:50.359 looks at the assets, and it's just how. 344 00:17:50.279 --> 00:17:51.559 Bankruptcy procedure works. 345 00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:55.559 More broadly, everybody kind of digs around and says, okay, well, 346 00:17:55.599 --> 00:17:59.440 I want the domain name, I want this business. 347 00:17:59.480 --> 00:18:01.200 I went to a business. 348 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:06.119 And so uh say basically put out that you know, 349 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:11.480 we'd be interested in h in the company. Why would 350 00:18:11.480 --> 00:18:15.000 a web three company buy, you know, a genomics company? 351 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:15.319 Right? 352 00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:19.359 And so this follows on the heels of the say, 353 00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:23.440 the same foundation's announcement a couple of months ago, early 354 00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:25.160 this year, I think it was January or February, we 355 00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:28.920 announced a sixty five million dollar DECI fund. Because that 356 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:30.839 was a big bet on a space that I think 357 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:35.640 went through a time where it probably got overly dowed. 358 00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:38.680 I think that's, you know, to our our conversation about dows. 359 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:40.359 Everything was going to be a dow and everything was 360 00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:43.680 going to solve a disease. It sort of went through 361 00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:46.559 this phase kind of it got really buzzworthy, and then 362 00:18:46.599 --> 00:18:48.799 I think the biggest thing that probably happened there was 363 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:54.440 FDA clearance. Sort of timelines do not align with token 364 00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:58.559 holder expectations, right, It's like just the mechanics of sort 365 00:18:58.599 --> 00:19:02.839 of true scientific applications versus expectations in a bowl market 366 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:05.559 for liquidity and things like that just really don't line up. 367 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:09.480 And to provide a little more context here, I mentioned 368 00:19:09.519 --> 00:19:09.759 sort of. 369 00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:10.400 The health stuff. 370 00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:15.440 My last job before I joked, my last real job, 371 00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:18.000 my last job before I went down the rabbit hole 372 00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:20.519 in crypto, I was at a venture fund, health Works 373 00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:23.920 funded by care First, Cross the Shield. I've done like 374 00:19:23.960 --> 00:19:27.279 some corp dev and like the biofarmal world, and so 375 00:19:27.319 --> 00:19:29.799 I've been really passionate about this space for like a while. 376 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:36.519 So the company basically continue to go through that process. 377 00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:41.079 And now the auction is is May fourteenth, and that's 378 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:47.119 that's obviously publicly available. Why would a crypto company be 379 00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:50.039 interested in that, Well, if you look at traditional healthcare, 380 00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:56.799 it's one of the least efficient technology industries with probably 381 00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:00.160 the greatest economic impact on the United States, Right, So 382 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:02.119 this number is going to be a couple of years old. 383 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:05.480 But America spends something like four and a half trillion 384 00:20:05.559 --> 00:20:09.839 dollars a year on healthcare and health services. And that's 385 00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:13.200 out of a GDP of something like twenty one twenty 386 00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:15.480 two trillion. Right, so we're spending nearly a quarter of 387 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:19.640 our resources on healthcare and the outcomes are not improving. 388 00:20:20.599 --> 00:20:22.680 So we're spending more money than anyone, and we have 389 00:20:22.759 --> 00:20:26.480 worse outcomes than anyone. The reason is that the system 390 00:20:26.839 --> 00:20:31.119 is incredibly extractive, right, there's a saying kind of it 391 00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:33.519 plays more to like social media and things like that. 392 00:20:34.119 --> 00:20:36.279 But you know, if you're not paying like you are 393 00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:39.000 the product. And so we have a duopoly in the 394 00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:42.839 in the the electronic health record market, which is Epic 395 00:20:42.920 --> 00:20:46.960 and Cerner. There's no interoperability there. The government, you know, 396 00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:50.839 puts out standards every few years. We recently had fire, 397 00:20:50.920 --> 00:20:55.359 which is an interoperability standard, and it's it's really like 398 00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:57.640 has not had an impact. So when you go into 399 00:20:57.680 --> 00:21:01.279 the doctor's office, everybody's been and to the same doctor, 400 00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:03.000 a new doctor, and you fill out that piece of 401 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:07.839