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<v Speaker 1>What's up everyone, and welcome back to the program. In

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<v Speaker 1>this episode, we're going to dive right back into the

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<v Speaker 1>prelim hearing for Tyler Robinson. Chad Grunader, Thank you, Judge,

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<v Speaker 1>the state moves to publish it, and if granted, may

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<v Speaker 1>I approach the exhibit Judge graf you may, Grunander, Officer,

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<v Speaker 1>I've asked you about a number of the buildings located

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<v Speaker 1>on campus. I'm just going to ask you a couple

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<v Speaker 1>of questions about those to help orient the court to

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<v Speaker 1>what the judge is looking at, and then ask you

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<v Speaker 1>about some of the streets in the neighborhood. Okay, answer, okay.

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<v Speaker 1>Question for the court's benefit, can you point out where

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<v Speaker 1>the LDS Institute Building is? Answer? Yes, I can. Question,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm going to approach the witness again if you

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<v Speaker 1>could describe where it is on Exhibit thirty five. Can

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<v Speaker 1>you hear me? Answer yes? Question Okay, So you want

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<v Speaker 1>the LDS Institute building. Is that what you're asking for?

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<v Speaker 1>Chad Grunader, Yes, please answer that is this white roof

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<v Speaker 1>right here, it's the institute building. Question is that in

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<v Speaker 1>basically the center of the exhibit? Answer, it's almost exactly

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<v Speaker 1>in the center of the exhibit. Question okay, and where's

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<v Speaker 1>the low C center located on that answer? If you

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<v Speaker 1>were to go down towards the bottom of the photo,

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<v Speaker 1>there's two different grays of gravel on this roof. This

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<v Speaker 1>would be the low C building right here. Question below

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<v Speaker 1>the institute building and to the right slightly answer slightly

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<v Speaker 1>to the right. Question can you point out to for

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<v Speaker 1>the court's benefit where the courtyard is. Answer? The courtyard

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<v Speaker 1>is going to be to the west or left side

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<v Speaker 1>of the picture. There are some grass in between two

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<v Speaker 1>buildings that have white roofs. There'd be a grass area

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<v Speaker 1>right there with some steps. That's going to be the

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<v Speaker 1>courtyard area, and that's going to be down towards the

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<v Speaker 1>center bottom of the photo. Question that's to the left

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<v Speaker 1>and down answer yes, Question okay, you mentioned the parking structure.

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<v Speaker 1>Where's the parking structure next to the institute building? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>The institute building is right here in the center with

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<v Speaker 1>the right white The parking structure is going to be

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<v Speaker 1>just over to the left of the institute or west side.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a road in between. It's called heat Plant Road,

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<v Speaker 1>which is the road that goes in between these two.

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<v Speaker 1>Question And can you point out for the courts benefit.

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<v Speaker 1>How one would enter that or exit the parking structure

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<v Speaker 1>by way a vehicle or walking? Answer by entering. You

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<v Speaker 1>can enter and exit right here on the north side

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<v Speaker 1>of the parking structure. There's an entrance in an exit

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<v Speaker 1>right here, and that's into level one. Question for a

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<v Speaker 1>vehicle answer for vehicles question, and I guess someone could

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<v Speaker 1>walk in there as well. Answer yes, if they were

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<v Speaker 1>to park in the LDS Institute parking lot over here

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<v Speaker 1>on the north side of that, there's a tunnel that

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<v Speaker 1>goes underneath the road and still comes out in the

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<v Speaker 1>parking structure itself, and then they can exit out here

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<v Speaker 1>on the second level on the heat Plant Road, which

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<v Speaker 1>is that road between the LDS Institute building and the

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<v Speaker 1>parking structure is heat Plant. They can exit there and

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<v Speaker 1>go back towards campus Drive. So you could walk out

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<v Speaker 1>either up here or on the northeast side to the

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<v Speaker 1>parking structure and cross over to the LDS Institute, or

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<v Speaker 1>you come out here to the southeast side and you

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<v Speaker 1>can exit there and walk down to the courtyard or

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<v Speaker 1>behind the LDS Institute building towards the low C Center. Question. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you. You mentioned Campus Drive. Where's Campus Drive located

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<v Speaker 1>on that? Answer? Campus Drive starts right up here towards

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<v Speaker 1>the top left of the picture. It's almost like a

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<v Speaker 1>t It's the curbed road that comes all the way

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<v Speaker 1>down in front of the institute building and the parking structure,

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<v Speaker 1>and it goes all the way around campus, comes back

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<v Speaker 1>down to the bottom of the picture where the roundabout is,

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<v Speaker 1>and that would be Campus Drive. Question Okay, are you

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<v Speaker 1>familiar with where eight hundred South is in orum? Answer? Yes?

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<v Speaker 1>Question is that depicted on this exhibit? Answer it is?

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<v Speaker 1>Question where's that at? Answer? It's at the top of

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<v Speaker 1>the photo. It's going to be the long straight road

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<v Speaker 1>that's right here at the top of the photo. Question Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>are you familiar with that street? Eight fifty South? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I am. A fifty South is going to be towards

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<v Speaker 1>the right of the photo. Top right of it, there

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<v Speaker 1>is going to be a street that goes east to west.

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<v Speaker 1>It looks like a horseshoe kind of. It's going to

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<v Speaker 1>be the road that goes east to west. In the

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<v Speaker 1>middle of that horseshoe would be eight fifty. Question okay,

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<v Speaker 1>eight to fifty is that parallel to eight hundred South?

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<v Speaker 1>Answer yes, question and just blow on this photograph. Answer yes. Question.

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<v Speaker 1>Are you familiar with six hundred West? Answer? I am? Question?

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<v Speaker 1>And where's that street in relationship to eight fifty South? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>That would be on the far right side of the horseshoe,

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<v Speaker 1>towards the right side of the picture. And it's going

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<v Speaker 1>to be the right side of the horseshoe. Question, and

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<v Speaker 1>that runs north and south? Answer north and south question? Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>what about seven twenty west? Are you familiar with that street? Answer? Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>I am. Question and where's that at? Answer? That's going

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<v Speaker 1>to be the left side of the horseshoe that runs

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<v Speaker 1>north and south. It comes down towards the bottom. Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>And finally nine twenty five south answer nine to twenty

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<v Speaker 1>five south he gets cut off by grunander. Is that depicted? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>It's going to be on the bottom of the horseshoe

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<v Speaker 1>that connects those other two west question Okay, so just

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<v Speaker 1>in summary, will you describe the horseshoe and what streets

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<v Speaker 1>make up that horseshoe. Answer? That horseshoe comes up off

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<v Speaker 1>of eight hundred South, and directly south of that, you'll

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<v Speaker 1>have eight to fifty South, which is going to be

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<v Speaker 1>running east to west. On the left side is seven

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<v Speaker 1>twenty five west of the horseshoe, and it comes down

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<v Speaker 1>into nine twenty five south, which wraps back around to

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<v Speaker 1>six hundred west on the far right side of the

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<v Speaker 1>horseshoe on the right side of the picture. Question, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you, officer, you can be seated. Okay, I'm going

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<v Speaker 1>to take you back to September tenth, twenty twenty five,

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<v Speaker 1>when you mentioned you were on campus you had a

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<v Speaker 1>particular assignment. Answer yes, Judge Graf, mister Grunender, I'm sorry,

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<v Speaker 1>We're just going to pull down the exhibits. Grunander. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>Judge Graf, thank you. You may continue. Grunander. Would you

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<v Speaker 1>like me to take this exhibit down? Judge Judge Graf,

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<v Speaker 1>Are you referring to it in your line of questioning

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<v Speaker 1>right now? Grunander, No, I'm not, Judge Graf, Okay, let's

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<v Speaker 1>go ahead and take it down. Grunander, you were securing

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<v Speaker 1>the Hall of Flags walkway correct answer yes, question on

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<v Speaker 1>the south end answer yes. Question. What was happening that

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<v Speaker 1>morning that day on the campus at UVU. Answer. I

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<v Speaker 1>came in to do a shift for a special event

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<v Speaker 1>where we had a guest speaker come in and was

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<v Speaker 1>going to talk to the students and people around the neighborhood.

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<v Speaker 1>Question do you know that speaker was? Answer? I do?

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<v Speaker 1>Question and who was that? Answer? It was Charlie Kirk.

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<v Speaker 1>Question did you see mister Kirk that day? Answer? I did?

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<v Speaker 1>Question When did you first see him? Answer when he

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<v Speaker 1>arrived on campus just behind the west side of the

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<v Speaker 1>Hall of Flags. I saw him pull up. Question and

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<v Speaker 1>can someone access the courtyard through that area? Answer yes,

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<v Speaker 1>a ken question, how so? Answer? Where he pulled up

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<v Speaker 1>underneath the Hall of Flags is an opening to where

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<v Speaker 1>you could drive a car underneath. There's access right there.

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<v Speaker 1>You could walk or drive underneath the Hall of Flags.

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<v Speaker 1>Question and you saw him arrive? Answer yes, question okay,

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<v Speaker 1>describe what you were seeing. What did you observe? Answer

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<v Speaker 1>on that day? I observed Charlie going back doing some

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<v Speaker 1>meet and greet with some people, getting some photos taken.

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<v Speaker 1>He then came underneath the Hall of Flags and went

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<v Speaker 1>to his tent, and he was there answering questions and

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<v Speaker 1>talking to individuals that would ask him questions. Question. The

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<v Speaker 1>tent you're referring to, is that the tent that we

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<v Speaker 1>see when it's set up in the courtyard. Answer yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>that white square tent. Question with white top. Answer yes,

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<v Speaker 1>he was under that. Question. Fast forward to about twelve

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<v Speaker 1>twenty or so. So a little bit afternoon, the noon hour.

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<v Speaker 1>What happened? What did you see and what did you hear? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I heard an individual talking to Charlie, and I happened

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<v Speaker 1>to glance over the edge of the railing. About that time.

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<v Speaker 1>I could see the right side of Charlie's shoulder, not

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<v Speaker 1>his whole body, because he was underneath the tent, so

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<v Speaker 1>I could only see probably the right side of his body.

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<v Speaker 1>He was answering a question. A kid asked him a question,

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<v Speaker 1>and then I heard a shot fired. Question do you

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<v Speaker 1>know what time that was? Answer? Yes? Question what time

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<v Speaker 1>was that? Answer twelve twenty three? Question what did you see? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>At the moment, I saw him lean to the left,

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<v Speaker 1>so I Grunadur cuts him off. When you say him

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<v Speaker 1>Novak answers Charlie Grunadur Charlie answer yes, Charlie Kirk. I

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<v Speaker 1>saw him go to the left because I could no

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<v Speaker 1>longer see the right side of his body. He went

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<v Speaker 1>further underneath the tent, to the north side of the tent.

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<v Speaker 1>So left and that's actually badly not novak. Question Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>can you describe the reaction of others that were there? Answer? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>then everybody started getting up and started to run in

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<v Speaker 1>more of a chaos kind of situation. Question before you continue,

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<v Speaker 1>can you describe a little bit so you mentioned mister

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<v Speaker 1>Kirk was answering questions, talking to individuals. Answer yes, question

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<v Speaker 1>were were others present? Answer yes? Question any idea about

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<v Speaker 1>approximately how many? How many would you describe in your terms? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>In my terms, I'd say when I was looking there,

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<v Speaker 1>looking down, I'd say there were several thousand people because

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<v Speaker 1>you had it on the grass and that was jam

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<v Speaker 1>packed in the amphitheater. Sitting on the grass, you had

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<v Speaker 1>people standing on the back up along the cement. You

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<v Speaker 1>had people that were on the second level the hornsen

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<v Speaker 1>and over by the Woodbury building there's another level. There

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<v Speaker 1>were a lot of people were standing and watching, so

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<v Speaker 1>it was pretty packed. Several thousand people. Question you mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>you heard something. What did you hear again? Answer? I

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<v Speaker 1>heard a gunshot? Question okay, and you described mister Kirk's reaction.

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<v Speaker 1>Was that simultaneous to hearing the gunshot? Answer? Yes, it

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<v Speaker 1>was grunander when he fell to the left. Answer yes.

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<v Speaker 1>Question did you see the reaction from the crowd? Answer? Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>question what was that? Answer? Everybody got up. A lot

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<v Speaker 1>of people were screaming, standing up and starting to run

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<v Speaker 1>in all different directions away from the center of the tent. Question. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>you're a police officer helping to secure the area. Correct answer, yes, question,

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<v Speaker 1>what did you do? Answer? At the moment I recognized

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<v Speaker 1>it as gunfire, I left my post, which was right

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<v Speaker 1>there on the south end of the Hall of Flags.

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<v Speaker 1>I proceeded to between right where the Fugal and Hall

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<v Speaker 1>of Flags meet. There are some outside stairs that I

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<v Speaker 1>was starting to run down. As I was trying to

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<v Speaker 1>get down to the bottom of the stairs, people were

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<v Speaker 1>running up, people were laying down on the steps. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>trying to jump over people to get to the bottom

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<v Speaker 1>of the stairs so I can help stop an individual

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<v Speaker 1>that's probably shooting. Question what happened next? Answer? By the

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<v Speaker 1>time I got to the bottom of the stairs, I

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<v Speaker 1>was informed on the radio that we had a shooter

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<v Speaker 1>in custody. I thought at the moment, I was like, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>that was kind of fast. Obviously it was close range,

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<v Speaker 1>probably because we had an visual in custody. Another officer

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<v Speaker 1>came on and said, we had an individual in custody.

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<v Speaker 1>I decided to since the threat is gone, now I

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<v Speaker 1>can assess for anybody that's injured and start looking for

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<v Speaker 1>any medical needs that's needed. At the moment, I started

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<v Speaker 1>canvassing the area. As I canvassed the area, I was

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<v Speaker 1>looking for anybody that was injured. I saw a kid

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<v Speaker 1>on the ground that was about second or third tier

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<v Speaker 1>in the grass next to the wheelchair, and he was

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<v Speaker 1>almost convulsive. I thought he'd maybe been shot. Talked to

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<v Speaker 1>the dad as I was running over there. He said

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<v Speaker 1>that he was just having a seizure, that he was fine,

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<v Speaker 1>he was not injured. And then at that moment I

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<v Speaker 1>observed that there was no other injuries that I could

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<v Speaker 1>see at the moment. Question, Okay, what was your attention

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<v Speaker 1>drawn to anything else at that time? Answer? Yeah. After

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<v Speaker 1>I got some people carried away a little bit, I

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<v Speaker 1>thought I needed to start preserving the scene because we

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<v Speaker 1>had a crime scene, and with some of my experience

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<v Speaker 1>in training to that effect, I decided, now we need

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<v Speaker 1>to contain the scene and I'll preserve as much evidence

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<v Speaker 1>as we can. So I started pushing people off the

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<v Speaker 1>grass out of the courtyard area, because I knew that's

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<v Speaker 1>where the crime scene was. As soon as we started

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<v Speaker 1>pushing those guys out, my chief Chief Long that was

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<v Speaker 1>right next to me, I looked down and saw an

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<v Speaker 1>empty pistol holder that was sitting on top of the grass,

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<v Speaker 1>and at that moment, things that died down. Just to

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<v Speaker 1>split second, I realized that the shot I heard was

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<v Speaker 1>more of a rifle shot and not a pistol shot. Question,

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<v Speaker 1>and what causes you to say that? Answer? Just from

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<v Speaker 1>being around firearms through all my trainings. The difference is

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<v Speaker 1>a handgun is more of a short bang pop sound.

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<v Speaker 1>With a rifle, you have more of a longer violent

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<v Speaker 1>bang or a crackle sound. It's more like a violent

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<v Speaker 1>kind of sound. It's longer. That's why I recognized it. Question, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>does a rifle sound louder? Typically answer yes. All right, folks,

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<v Speaker 1>we're gonna wrap up right here, and in the next

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<v Speaker 1>episode we're gonna pick up where we left off. And

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<v Speaker 1>that's that one hour and forty one minutes and forty

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<v Speaker 1>seconds of the prelim hearing on day number one. The

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<v Speaker 1>information that goes with this episode can be found in

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<v Speaker 1>the description box,