WEBVTT 1 00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:28.039 Hello, and welcome to Western sev and today's bonus author interview. 2 00:00:28.120 --> 00:00:33.600 We are sitting down with translator and also historian Robin Waterfield. 3 00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:38.000 Fans of the show will recall we have had Robin 4 00:00:38.079 --> 00:00:42.200 on the show before some of his other translations essential 5 00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:45.679 to the Western Canon. Today, he has a new book out, 6 00:00:46.119 --> 00:00:50.200 Asop's Fables, a new translation. It's available right now. Link 7 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:52.799 is in the show notes if you would like to check. 8 00:00:52.600 --> 00:00:54.359 It out now. 9 00:00:54.399 --> 00:00:59.640 If you're like me, you remember Asop's Fables from elementary 10 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:02.880 school or lower school or primary school, whatever it was called, 11 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:06.959 wherever you were. They were read to you in second 12 00:01:07.079 --> 00:01:10.760 or third grade with some sort of heavy moral that 13 00:01:10.879 --> 00:01:14.920 was sometimes expressly stated, sometimes not, and the teacher would 14 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:17.159 use it as a way to sort of explain what 15 00:01:17.239 --> 00:01:20.439 you should or should not do, the most famous of which, 16 00:01:20.439 --> 00:01:24.359 of course, being the Tortoise and the hair Slow steady 17 00:01:24.439 --> 00:01:26.519 wins the race. I can almost hear you all saying 18 00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:29.680 it right now, wherever it is that you're sitting. Well, 19 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:33.480 it turns out there's over seven hundred of these fables 20 00:01:33.480 --> 00:01:36.599 and they've been compiled over a long period of time, 21 00:01:36.680 --> 00:01:40.239 and I love this new translation. It's it would actually 22 00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:42.599 be an interesting book to kind of keep handy for 23 00:01:42.599 --> 00:01:44.359 those of you who have young children, but don't let 24 00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:46.879 them just pick it up, because some of these are 25 00:01:46.920 --> 00:01:51.359 actually a little racy, honestly. So I thought what we 26 00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:54.599 would do today is before we hop into the interview, 27 00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:58.719 because this is a totally different kind of book than 28 00:01:58.760 --> 00:02:02.719 we normally do on this show. You know, usually we're 29 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:05.319 looking at some sort of a narrative history in some way, 30 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:06.239 shape or form. 31 00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:07.599 This isn't. 32 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:10.680 This is a pure translation, and it's a translation of 33 00:02:10.759 --> 00:02:13.919 what is usually a bunch of shorter texts because the 34 00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:18.599 fables are relatively brief. So I thought before we head 35 00:02:18.599 --> 00:02:21.240 to the interview, I would read a couple of them 36 00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:23.560 that I enjoy and that I thought you might like 37 00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:25.240 to hear as well, just so you can kind of 38 00:02:25.280 --> 00:02:29.080 get a taste of what's in the book. It's a 39 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:31.719 great book. It clocks in and right now at just 40 00:02:31.800 --> 00:02:35.919 over three hundred pages, over seven hundred different fables. So 41 00:02:36.319 --> 00:02:39.000 it's really great. We make a great gift, I think 42 00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:43.039 for someone who's maybe a little bit nostalgic for bygone eras. 43 00:02:43.599 --> 00:02:45.479 So let me read a couple of these to you 44 00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:49.039 before we hop into the interview. Now, some of these, 45 00:02:49.039 --> 00:02:52.360 as I mentioned, they have direct sort of morals. So 46 00:02:52.520 --> 00:02:55.479 this one does I enjoy it. It's called the Goose 47 00:02:56.039 --> 00:02:59.919 and the Stork. A stork came down to her usual 48 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:04.159 hand and found a goose there, diving over and over 49 00:03:04.240 --> 00:03:08.639 again under the surface of the water. When she asked why, 50 00:03:09.479 --> 00:03:13.759 the goose said, that's what we geese do. We find 51 00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:17.560 food in the mud. Oh, it's also how we escape 52 00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:22.400 when a hawk attacks us. And the stork said, well, 53 00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:25.960 I'm stronger than a hawk. Be my friend, and then 54 00:03:26.039 --> 00:03:29.759 you'll laugh with scorn at hawks. The goose agreed, and 55 00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:32.879 it wasn't long before he asked the stork for protection. 56 00:03:34.039 --> 00:03:36.199 He left the pond with her and went into the 57 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:39.960 open countryside. But a hawk swooped down, seized the goose 58 00:03:39.960 --> 00:03:44.120 with its talons and started to eat him up, and 59 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:48.039 the goose cried out against the stork. Anyone who makes 60 00:03:48.039 --> 00:03:51.240 a pact with such a pathetic defender deserves to die 61 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:56.400 a wretched death, the moral being for those who expect 62 00:03:56.400 --> 00:03:59.199 to be defended by people who were unable to guarantee 63 00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:00.159 their safety. 64 00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:01.280 Watch out. 65 00:04:03.719 --> 00:04:05.639 Here's another one that has a great moral. This is 66 00:04:05.719 --> 00:04:09.960 called the Viper and the Snake. A viper used to 67 00:04:09.960 --> 00:04:12.719 go to a certain spring to drink, but the spring 68 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:15.400 was home to a water snake who kept him away 69 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:18.199 from the water. He was angry with the viper for 70 00:04:18.279 --> 00:04:21.480 coming to his domain rather than being satisfied with his 71 00:04:21.519 --> 00:04:25.480 own feeding ground. Their quarrel grew ever more bitter until 72 00:04:25.519 --> 00:04:27.959 they agreed that they'd fight each other and that the 73 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:30.120 winner would have the use of the land and the water. 74 00:04:31.079 --> 00:04:34.439 Once they had fisked a day for the battle, the frogs, 75 00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:38.240 who hated the water snake, came to the viper and 76 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:43.319 boosted his morale by promising to fight alongside him. But 77 00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:46.399 when the battle was joined and the viper was fighting 78 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:50.399 the water snake, the frogs proved incapable of doing anything 79 00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:57.079 except croaking loudly. Still, the viper won, and afterward he 80 00:04:57.160 --> 00:05:02.000 told the frogs off. They had promised to fight alongside him, 81 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:04.600 but all they did was sing, which was no use 82 00:05:04.639 --> 00:05:08.920 to him at all. Now, the frogs replied, learn from this, 83 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:13.879 my friends, that as allies, we have only songs to offer, 84 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:19.199 not strength. The point of this tale is that words 85 00:05:19.240 --> 00:05:24.600 are useless when physical strength is needed. Now, those of 86 00:05:24.639 --> 00:05:27.959 you who remember Aesop's fables probably remember that a lot 87 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:31.319 of them involved either a wolf or a fox. This 88 00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:36.639 one has both the treacherous fox and the wolf. A 89 00:05:36.680 --> 00:05:39.240 wolf had gathered a huge quantity of loot in his 90 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:43.040 den in good time, so that he could enjoy all 91 00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:47.120 kinds of delicacies in the coming months. A fox found 92 00:05:47.160 --> 00:05:50.560 out about his trove and paid the wolf a visit 93 00:05:50.600 --> 00:05:54.680 in his den. Are you okay, she whined, I haven't 94 00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:58.519 seen you for ages. I've missed you so much while 95 00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:03.959 you've been staying indoors, And the wolf replied caustically, they're 96 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:07.560 not here because you're worried about me. You're not come 97 00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:10.480 out of the kindness of your heart, but to see 98 00:06:10.600 --> 00:06:13.920 if i'll give you anything. I know you're trying to 99 00:06:13.959 --> 00:06:18.160 trick me. This enraged the fox, and she went to 100 00:06:18.199 --> 00:06:21.439 a shepherd and said to him, what will you give 101 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:24.959 me if today, right now, I turn the enemy of 102 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:27.040 your flock over to you so that you don't have 103 00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:30.519 to worry about him anymore. I'll be in your debt, 104 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:34.279 said the shepherd, and I'll give you whatever you want. 105 00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:38.600 So the fox showed the shepherd where the wolf's lair was, 106 00:06:39.439 --> 00:06:42.279 and the shepherd immediately killed the wolf with his javelin. 107 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:46.360 Then he let the fox satisfy her envious desire for 108 00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:50.240 food that was not her own. Later, when the fox 109 00:06:50.319 --> 00:06:53.720 encountered some hunters and was caught by their hounds. As 110 00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:57.600 she was being torn to pieces, she said, not long ago, 111 00:06:57.759 --> 00:07:01.680 I committed a major crime. I'm dying for having caused 112 00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:07.360 someone else's death. Those who harm others should be aware 113 00:07:07.800 --> 00:07:12.000 of being harmed by others themselves. Now, not all of 114 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:15.720 the fables actually involve animals, Believe it or not. I 115 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:18.600 didn't know that, and so I want to read one 116 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:20.680 to you. One last one that does not. This is 117 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:27.720 Demetrius of Phalarium and Meander the Poet. By an underhanded 118 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:31.040 use of power, Demetrius the Phalarian, as he's called, has 119 00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:35.000 gained control of Athens as its sole ruler. The general populace, 120 00:07:35.319 --> 00:07:38.480 as is typical of mobs, rushes up to him, pushing 121 00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:40.879 and shoving at one another in a desire to be 122 00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:44.959 first to explain their congratulations. Even the leading men of 123 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:48.920 the city kissed the hand by which they're oppressed, while 124 00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:52.800 inwardly resenting the sad twist of fate that impels them 125 00:07:52.839 --> 00:07:57.040 to do so. In fact, even a political people and 126 00:07:57.079 --> 00:07:59.680 men of leisure come creeping in at the tail end 127 00:07:59.680 --> 00:08:02.959 of the crowd, worried in case they fail to do so, 128 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:07.439 they'll suffer for it. Among them is Meander, famous for 129 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:11.040 his comedies. Now, Demetrius had never met the man himself, 130 00:08:11.399 --> 00:08:13.920 although he was familiar with his work and admired his genius. 131 00:08:15.040 --> 00:08:18.000 So when the tyrant saw Meander walking in right at 132 00:08:18.040 --> 00:08:21.120 the end of the line, with his mincing, foppish gait, 133 00:08:21.560 --> 00:08:24.759 anointed with perfume and dressed in flowing robes, he said, 134 00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:29.040 who is this nancy who dares to come into my presence? 135 00:08:29.240 --> 00:08:33.559 Swiveling his hips like that? That's Meander, the writer, said 136 00:08:33.559 --> 00:08:37.799 the people standing around him. Demetrius immediately changed his tune. 137 00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:42.080 What a fine looking man, he said. It is impossible 138 00:08:42.120 --> 00:08:47.200 to imagine that anyone could be more handsome. Ladies and 139 00:08:47.240 --> 00:08:55.600 gentlemen beware compliments sometimes. But now, without further ado, the 140 00:08:55.720 --> 00:08:58.679 interview with Robin Waterfield. 141 00:09:19.559 --> 00:09:20.480 And welcome back. 142 00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:24.000 As I mentioned previously in the introduction, today I am 143 00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:30.679 sitting down with Robin Waterfield is an eminent translator and historian, 144 00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:33.200 and so we're going to talk today about something that 145 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:37.240 you know, if you've gone to school, you know the 146 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:41.840 word ASoP and Asop's Fables, because it's something that even 147 00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:44.879 in grammar school, or at lower school, or in elementary school, 148 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:48.159 depending upon where you are, I would wager that we've 149 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:51.360 all read or maybe been read at least one of 150 00:09:51.399 --> 00:09:54.080 them at some point in our lives. I know that 151 00:09:54.159 --> 00:09:57.960 I've been read several and until I read this book, 152 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:02.200 I never really thought much about the fables themselves. And 153 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:04.679 I'm gonna be honest with everyone listening today, I didn't 154 00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:08.519 actually even know where they originated from. 155 00:10:08.519 --> 00:10:10.039 But I think one of. 156 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:12.720 The places that I want to start with today is 157 00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:16.799 just the role of the translator, because you've translated some 158 00:10:16.840 --> 00:10:20.720 of the most important texts in the Western world, and 159 00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:23.519 so I thought maybe you could explain a little bit 160 00:10:23.519 --> 00:10:27.000 about your role and your methods as a translator, and 161 00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:30.080 that how you do that when it's a text that 162 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:33.799 it's not just word for word translation, it's also things 163 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:37.519 like author's intent, author's purpose, things like that that you 164 00:10:37.559 --> 00:10:39.919 have to take into consideration. So if you could talk 165 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:41.480 a little bit about your role, I think that that 166 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:42.559 might be illuminating. 167 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:47.440 Okay, well, thanks for having me on the show again, Adam, 168 00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:49.679 But you should be careful what you ask for, because 169 00:10:49.720 --> 00:10:54.360 I once gave a fourteen minute talk on my translation policy, 170 00:10:55.440 --> 00:10:58.720 so I'll keep it short. The way I say it 171 00:10:58.759 --> 00:11:01.879 is this, there are two extreme in translating. There are 172 00:11:01.879 --> 00:11:04.519 translators who believe that the way to do justice to 173 00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:07.879 their author is to follow even his word order and 174 00:11:08.279 --> 00:11:12.200 sentence structure as closely as possible. That to me is 175 00:11:12.240 --> 00:11:17.000 not translation. Translation is literally the transference of the words 176 00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:21.399 and idiosyncrasies of one language into another. You don't retain 177 00:11:21.559 --> 00:11:24.960 the idiosyncrasies of the original language when they don't fit. 178 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:26.399 Then. 179 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:29.440 The other extreme is the opposite. That is, many translators 180 00:11:29.480 --> 00:11:32.519 embellish their texts a bit in order to bring out 181 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:36.240 the nuances they detect, such as you just suggested, the 182 00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:38.519 intentions of the author, and so on and so forth. 183 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:43.759 I try to find a middle road between those two extremes. 184 00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:49.000 I try to write modern readable English while remaining faithful 185 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:52.440 to the original text. Let me put it this way. 186 00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:57.840 Of the two extremes, overly literal translation underestimates the intelligence 187 00:11:57.840 --> 00:12:02.480 of the reader. This is particularly common in translations of 188 00:12:02.519 --> 00:12:06.399 philosophical texts. And it's true that since action philosophers use 189 00:12:06.440 --> 00:12:09.399 a lot of precise technical vocabulary, in these cases one 190 00:12:09.559 --> 00:12:13.519 has to be just as literal. But Plato, for instance, 191 00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:16.480 I've translated a lot of Plato. Plato was a far 192 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:19.840 more fluent writer than most philosophers, and yet still commonly 193 00:12:19.879 --> 00:12:25.279 gets translated pedantically and over literally. Now you can see 194 00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:28.480 why I say that this kind of literal translation underestimates 195 00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:31.519 the intelligence of the reader. In his early and middle works, 196 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:35.240 Plato rarely felt the need to express his philosophical profundities 197 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:38.440 in pedantic and ugly phrases. He assumed that he could 198 00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:44.279 write good Greek and still communicate his point and over translation. 199 00:12:44.919 --> 00:12:49.600 The opposite underestimates the intelligence of the original author, because 200 00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:53.360 if the ancient author had wanted the flourishes and so 201 00:12:53.480 --> 00:12:56.279 on that so many translators attribute to them, they'd have 202 00:12:56.320 --> 00:13:00.159 written them. In art doesn't have to be obvious. It 203 00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:03.200 doesn't have to spell everything out and express every implication 204 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:06.559 and nuance. It leaves such things hovering just below the 205 00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:10.159 surface of the text or the painting or whatever. The 206 00:13:10.200 --> 00:13:14.399 painting or text then gains depth and resonance. So in fact, 207 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:18.000 in my view, a truer translation is one which leaves 208 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:21.320 in place as much of the resonance as possible without 209 00:13:21.399 --> 00:13:24.240 spelling it out. You can see why this might be 210 00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:28.200 difficult for philosophers. But please note that I'm talking about 211 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:31.840 translating prose, which is what I chiefly do. Poets who 212 00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:35.200 translatation group poets have to allow themselves much more license 213 00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:36.919 than I allow myself. 214 00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:39.039 So that's it. 215 00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:41.519 In short, Adam, I trying to achieve a balance between 216 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:45.080 those two extremes, and I do believe that the middle 217 00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:47.960 way that I'm trying to walk is the way to 218 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:50.360 be truly faithful to the author i'm translating. 219 00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:58.440 It's interesting because, of course there's a distinction between translation 220 00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:02.519 and interpretation. I think sometimes we see them packaged together 221 00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:07.440 in a book, and I find that that students can 222 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:11.759 confuse the two, but they they're not the same in 223 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:14.600 any way, shape or form. And I think it's important 224 00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:18.279 to bear that in mind as we start to look 225 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:21.960 at any sort of text. And as yesterday we were 226 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:25.679 speaking with on the show an author of biblical history 227 00:14:25.720 --> 00:14:30.519 and the problems of translation, because of course, throughout history 228 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:34.080 there have been good translations, and then there have been 229 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:38.080 less good translations over time. This is a good translation, 230 00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:41.840 So that's that's a positive standpoint for us. But well, 231 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:46.120 let's let's talk a little bit about the fables. For themselves, like, 232 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:50.080 let's just begin, as Lewis Carroll once wrote, at the beginning, 233 00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:55.559 and start with where did the fables originate? And how 234 00:14:55.559 --> 00:14:59.159 did they first start to become incorporated into what I 235 00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:02.000 suppose we might all the Western canon. 236 00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:10.000 Okay, they didn't reach us by a single route. Originally, 237 00:15:10.039 --> 00:15:12.840 the fables were told one by one, so to speak 238 00:15:13.960 --> 00:15:16.720 around the fireside at home, or as a cautionary tale 239 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:21.679 for children, or to entertain others at a symposium. Sometimes 240 00:15:21.879 --> 00:15:25.240 politicians would bring up a persinent fable to help them 241 00:15:25.240 --> 00:15:29.080 make a point in a speech. Sometimes playwrights or poets 242 00:15:29.159 --> 00:15:33.480 might tell or paraphrase one. So some of the fables 243 00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:36.600 we know are found one by one, embedded in some 244 00:15:36.679 --> 00:15:41.080 such literary context, in a politician speech or something which 245 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:43.960 happens to have survived, or a poet or a poem. 246 00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:49.399 But later people began to make collections of the fables, 247 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:52.919 and the first such collection we know of was compiled 248 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:56.440 by a man called Demetrius of Phalerum, A very interesting 249 00:15:56.480 --> 00:15:57.480 man in his own right. 250 00:15:57.519 --> 00:15:59.559 He studied in the Aristotilian. 251 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:02.679 School, and for ten years he was the sole ruural 252 00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:04.000 dictator of Athens. 253 00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:05.639 At the end of the fourth. 254 00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:10.759 Century BC, Now Demetrius's collection hasn't survived, but its point 255 00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:13.320 was almost certainly to aid in the training of orators 256 00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:17.679 teachers of rhetoric like students to study the fables, because 257 00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:21.519 they said that it helped them acquire a simple, non 258 00:16:21.559 --> 00:16:24.399 elevated style which would suit some. 259 00:16:24.399 --> 00:16:25.879 Contexts or audiences. 260 00:16:27.879 --> 00:16:31.480 Then, in the early centuries of this era CE further 261 00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:35.159 collections were made that have survived in whole or in part. 262 00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:36.559 Three. 263 00:16:36.679 --> 00:16:39.639 Such collections go to make up a set of three 264 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:43.720 hundred and fifty what are called anonymous fables, anonymous meaning 265 00:16:43.720 --> 00:16:46.279 that the compilers found them one by one in the 266 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:49.519 sources I described a moment ago or from collections such 267 00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:53.879 as Demetrius's. But we also have several collections of fables 268 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:57.759 turned into verse, of which the two most extensive are 269 00:16:58.120 --> 00:17:02.200 the Latin verse fables written by Fedrius and the Greek 270 00:17:02.360 --> 00:17:07.519 verse fables written by someone called Babrius. More collections were 271 00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:10.240 made over the following centuries and into the Middle Ages, 272 00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:12.519 but it was only in the middle of the twentieth 273 00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:15.640 century that they were all pulled together into a single 274 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:21.359 collection by an American scholar called ben Edwin Perry. His 275 00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:25.880 weighty tone contains far more than the fables contains two 276 00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:31.119 ancient biographers, two ancient lives of Esop, for instance, But 277 00:17:31.279 --> 00:17:35.480 he collected over seven hundred fables, and that's not counting 278 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:36.599 all the variants. 279 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:40.720 Now there I should explain variance. It's because. 280 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:43.640 Quite a lot of the fables aren't, as it were, 281 00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:49.559 just stories, their story types, and so they might exist 282 00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:53.519 in different versions, with a fox perhaps being the main 283 00:17:53.559 --> 00:17:56.240 protagonist rather than a wolf, or a goose rather than 284 00:17:56.240 --> 00:18:00.279 the duck, or the variation might be more extensive than that, 285 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:05.000 while still retaining the same core story and moral And 286 00:18:05.079 --> 00:18:08.079 if we would account those as separate fables, there would 287 00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:12.119 be way over seven hundred. But Perry collected seven hundred, 288 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:14.519 and that is, as it were, the standard collection. 289 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:18.519 Now that's interesting. I find it a little bit surprising. 290 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:23.160 I suppose that it took so long, relatively speaking, for 291 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:27.440 all the fables to come together in one particular text. 292 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:30.880 I guess I would have expected, maybe at the latest 293 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:34.039 the eighteenth seventeenth century, at some point in there there 294 00:18:34.039 --> 00:18:36.160 would have been some sort of a collection. 295 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:39.799 So it's interesting that it didn't happen till later than that. 296 00:18:40.759 --> 00:18:43.400 Well, it might have done, but I'm saying not to 297 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:48.519 the fullest extent, and people were writing their own verse 298 00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:52.519 fables well into the seventeenth eighteenth century. La Fontaine's fables 299 00:18:52.519 --> 00:18:57.359 are particularly famous, and the Sours fables, yeah, were certainly 300 00:18:57.440 --> 00:19:00.680 known and read and enjoyed, so they must have been books. 301 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:06.559 But we're also touching on the fact that in recent centuries, 302 00:19:06.680 --> 00:19:09.319 I mean even going back to the eighteenth century for sure, 303 00:19:09.799 --> 00:19:15.720 possibly seventeenth, I don't know, you started getting fables. The idea, 304 00:19:16.599 --> 00:19:19.960 as you in a sense you suggested in your introduction. 305 00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:22.759 The idea was that the fables were to be told 306 00:19:22.839 --> 00:19:26.680 or read by children, told to or read by children. 307 00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:30.799 And you see, in order to do that, first of all, 308 00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:34.119 you're not doing a translation, because, as we'll soon see, 309 00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:37.480 the fables aren't really suitable for children, so they get 310 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:42.599 extremely watered down and simplified in order to be told 311 00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:45.920 for children, so they're not translations. And secondly, if this 312 00:19:46.039 --> 00:19:48.839 was the main way the fables were being published, a 313 00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:52.119 book of fables for children would contain no more than 314 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:55.519 perhaps twenty thirty to fifty fables at the most. 315 00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:56.119 Something like that. 316 00:19:56.880 --> 00:19:59.799 So yeah, that's why I'm giving Perry the credit for 317 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:02.240 she being the first to pull it all together. 318 00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:06.319 Then of course, that's the fun part about history, especially 319 00:20:06.319 --> 00:20:07.960 when you get back to the distant past. 320 00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:09.680 We don't know exactly. 321 00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:13.920 There's there's certainly a possibility that someone else put it 322 00:20:13.960 --> 00:20:17.200 together earlier and we just don't know. It's kind of 323 00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:20.680 like a tip of the Iceberg scenario. So now this 324 00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:24.079 question I feel like I have to ask, even though 325 00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:26.759 it may again getting to the sort of the distant 326 00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:30.559 past idea that we might not know everything, we might 327 00:20:30.599 --> 00:20:33.039 know nothing, But I should suppose I want to ask. 328 00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:35.880 It anyway, which is who was Esop? To the best 329 00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:40.160 of our knowledge, Well. 330 00:20:40.359 --> 00:20:44.400 There almost certainly did exist a person called Esop who 331 00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:47.359 was famed for his fables. He would have lived in 332 00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:53.079 the sixth century BCE. But immediately I have to add 333 00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:57.079 that there are fables still in existence that predate his 334 00:20:57.119 --> 00:21:01.039 alleged lifetime, so he wasn't the only tender fables, just 335 00:21:01.079 --> 00:21:05.559 a particularly famous one. But after that, having said that 336 00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:09.200 much the details get a bit murky. As I've just 337 00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:12.279 mentioned that there are a couple of acient written in 338 00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:14.880 ancient times lives of Esop, but. 339 00:21:16.359 --> 00:21:17.599 They are more excuses to. 340 00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:21.920 Retell a few fables and Esopian jokes in an obviously 341 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:26.440 fictional biographical context. Like most ancient biographers, they are not 342 00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:32.000 at all reliable sources of information. But pulling the few 343 00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:37.480 more reliable threads together we get something like this. Esop 344 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:42.119 was a slave. He was an enslaved person, born either 345 00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:46.640 in Phrygia in Asia Minor that is Turkey today, or 346 00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:50.599 in Thrace, which today would be northern Greece and Bulgaria. 347 00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:54.759 He worked as a slave on the Greek island of 348 00:21:54.839 --> 00:21:59.279 Samos before he was given his freedom, and he was 349 00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:00.119 incredibly out. 350 00:22:01.480 --> 00:22:05.480 And that that really is as much as is as it. 351 00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:09.359 Were, common law throughout the biographies and other things that 352 00:22:09.400 --> 00:22:12.000 we hear about Esop. That's really all therefore that we 353 00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:15.799 can safely say. But in my opinion, even that isn't 354 00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:21.640 really safe. I think that certainty is impossible because his 355 00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:27.200 low status as an enslaved person, his non Greek ethnicity, 356 00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:31.559 and his ugliness made him the perfect vehicle for commenting 357 00:22:31.640 --> 00:22:34.640 on aspects of Greek society, which is what the fables do. 358 00:22:35.799 --> 00:22:39.960 He was an outsider, casting an amused, cynical and critical 359 00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:44.200 eye on the behavior of people around him. So even 360 00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:47.160 his enslavement is in a sense too good to be true. 361 00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:50.960 So as I say, the only really safe thing every 362 00:22:51.079 --> 00:22:55.119 one can say is that he probably did exist. It's 363 00:22:55.160 --> 00:22:58.200 the same as the problem with Homer. You know, we 364 00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:01.640 don't actually know for sure that there was an ancient 365 00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:05.599 poet called Homeros that almost certainly was. We can't be 366 00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:07.799 sure that he's the author of both the poems that 367 00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:10.400 have come down to us under his name, the Iliad 368 00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:13.640 and the Odyssey. These problems come up time and again 369 00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:15.160 when studying ancient texts. 370 00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:19.119 I was going to bring up Homer, and I guess 371 00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:21.119 the kind of a follow up question to that is, 372 00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:25.359 you know, does it matter? You know, is it relevant 373 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:29.079 that we don't know particularly who this person is. You know, 374 00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:32.119 if we were to discover I don't know how we 375 00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:34.440 would unearth this, but let's just say we did unearth 376 00:23:34.519 --> 00:23:38.599 some sort of biography of Esop or biography of Homer. 377 00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:43.319 Would it in any way sort of change our perspectives 378 00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:44.599 on the fables? 379 00:23:44.640 --> 00:23:45.359 I'm not sure. 380 00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:48.920 I'm sure it wouldn't. I'm sure it wouldn't time it. 381 00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:52.960 But that goes for any work of art or creative. 382 00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:53.359 Work, doesn't it. 383 00:23:53.759 --> 00:23:59.079 I mean, it's a well, I've been touching on difficult 384 00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:03.319 issues here. I suppose you know, so much about an 385 00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:05.720 author that you find he's a despicable person. 386 00:24:06.279 --> 00:24:07.640 Does that make his work? 387 00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:10.279 Does that make you want to not read his work 388 00:24:10.359 --> 00:24:13.000 or listen to his music or something anyway? 389 00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:14.920 Sorry, that's probably a disgrestion, Adam. 390 00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:18.920 But yeah, no, it wouldn't certainly any socks case, It 391 00:24:18.920 --> 00:24:21.039 wouldn't wouldn't make the slightest difference. And it doesn't make 392 00:24:21.079 --> 00:24:23.599 the slightest different because I've just been saying, we don't 393 00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:24.559 know about up Set. 394 00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:26.039 What we've got is the Paples. 395 00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:27.480 That is an interesting question. 396 00:24:27.559 --> 00:24:30.920 I mean, I think that's probably and I think it's 397 00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:34.839 it's it's it's dangerous sometimes for us to put our 398 00:24:35.079 --> 00:24:41.119 modern ideals and perspectives onto people from the very distant 399 00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:46.440 past and then cast normative statements about them. But you 400 00:24:46.519 --> 00:24:48.079 make a good point that, you know, if we were 401 00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:52.000