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<v Speaker 1>Kent Theory is one of the people behind the rank

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<v Speaker 1>choice voting initiative here on the ballot. He's been k

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<v Speaker 1>You've been very busy over the last few years, sort

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<v Speaker 1>of reshaping how politics has been going. You were behind

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<v Speaker 1>the ballid initiative to open the primaries. You've been behind

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<v Speaker 1>other ballot initiatives that have really had a big impact

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<v Speaker 1>on Colorado. We won't talk about the Gallagor amendment right now,

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<v Speaker 1>although I did already tell him I'm kind of mad

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<v Speaker 1>at him about that one, because ranked choice voting is

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<v Speaker 1>something that I have been very open on the show

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<v Speaker 1>about vacillating back and forth. I sort of you know,

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<v Speaker 1>and I kind of wanted to give you the opportunity

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<v Speaker 1>to give a solid primmer on what this valid initiative

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<v Speaker 1>actually does, how our system would work if it passes,

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<v Speaker 1>and then why we can get into the why we

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<v Speaker 1>need to do this or we don't whatever after that,

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<v Speaker 1>but let's start with what it actually does.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, thank you Mandy for shedding some light on

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<v Speaker 2>this subject because it's so it's so important. What it

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<v Speaker 2>does is it establishes a very tidy, integrated three step process.

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<v Speaker 2>Step one, an all candidate primary everybody on one ballot

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<v Speaker 2>and with their party affiliation number two. The top four

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<v Speaker 2>advance from that all candidate primary. Step three you go

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<v Speaker 2>get You got to earn a majority of support, and

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<v Speaker 2>we do that through ranked voting. So step one, all

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<v Speaker 2>candidate primary, all of us voters vote for one person.

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<v Speaker 3>Step two.

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<v Speaker 2>Four of those advanced, which creates tremendous diversity. You don't

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<v Speaker 2>just get the fire left and fire right, but you

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<v Speaker 2>get center right, and center left and maybe even center center.

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<v Speaker 3>So you're giving much more choice to that third step,

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<v Speaker 3>which is the.

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<v Speaker 2>General election, where we say, hey to become an elected

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<v Speaker 2>official in Colorado, earn a majority of support and rather

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<v Speaker 2>than having a runoff election costing millions of dollars a

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<v Speaker 2>month after the normal election, if they do in many states,

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<v Speaker 2>we would achieve it through ranked voting, which is something

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<v Speaker 2>that already exists in sixty four political jurisdictions across America.

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<v Speaker 1>So let me ask you to clarify what happens, because

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<v Speaker 1>I think the primary ballot is easy to understand. You

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<v Speaker 1>cast one vote on the primary ballot, and if your

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<v Speaker 1>person is among the top four vote getters in that primary,

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<v Speaker 1>you were going to see them on your general election ballot.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's say we've got candidates ABC and D, just

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<v Speaker 1>to keep it simple, and candidate A. No candidate gets

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<v Speaker 1>over fifty percent in the first go round, Okay, so

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<v Speaker 1>we'll just go in. A came in first place, B

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<v Speaker 1>came in second place. C came in third place. D

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<v Speaker 1>came in fourth place. Okay, So what happens when candidate

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<v Speaker 1>A is at forty percent and all the other candidates

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<v Speaker 1>are less?

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<v Speaker 4>What happens at that point?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So at that point, since no one has demonstrated

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<v Speaker 2>to a majority of people that they're preferred, then you

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<v Speaker 2>go to the person who is in fourth place, in

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<v Speaker 2>last place, and that person D isn't Dog gets taken out.

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<v Speaker 2>At that point, they've lost. Just like losing in a primary.

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<v Speaker 2>In the current system, you lose, you don't get to advance.

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<v Speaker 2>And so number four, whoever that is, goes away, and

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<v Speaker 2>any of any of Diaz and Dogs voters who indicate

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<v Speaker 2>a number two choice, their vote gets reallocated to that

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<v Speaker 2>number two choice, and then you see if anybody gets

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<v Speaker 2>over fifty percent from that. If you do, you stop

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<v Speaker 2>right there. If not, you then take the third place

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<v Speaker 2>person and reallocate their number two votes and then you

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<v Speaker 2>automatically are going to get a winner because at that

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<v Speaker 2>point someone's going to have over fifty percent.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So this is one of those things that as

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<v Speaker 1>a person, and I've also been open with my audience

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<v Speaker 1>about the fact that in two thousand I voted for

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<v Speaker 1>Ralph Nader because I was voting for the viability of

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<v Speaker 1>a third party candidate.

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<v Speaker 4>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>So I'm not opposed to anything that shakes up the

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<v Speaker 1>two party system. But the biggest concern that I have

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<v Speaker 1>seen on the against side is that this destroys the

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<v Speaker 1>two party system.

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<v Speaker 4>How do you respond to that?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, I'm more conservative than you on this one,

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<v Speaker 2>because I actually am very nervous about moving away from

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<v Speaker 2>the two party system, and I think what we're doing

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<v Speaker 2>is going to save it.

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<v Speaker 3>The fact is the two.

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<v Speaker 2>Party system has been losing customers at an amazing clip.

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<v Speaker 2>Half of Colorado voters are now independent, more than Democrats

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<v Speaker 2>and Republicans combined, and the numbers going up higher and higher.

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<v Speaker 2>Sixty four percent of young adults under age thirty five

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<v Speaker 2>are independence, and eighty five percent of Generation Z says

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<v Speaker 2>that neither party has anything to offer them. And so

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<v Speaker 2>I actually believe that as opposed to what's happening with

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<v Speaker 2>the two parties now, where they're becoming more and more.

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<v Speaker 3>Extreme to to the left and the right.

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<v Speaker 2>They're building higher and higher fences over smaller and smaller parties.

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<v Speaker 2>We're going to end up with new parties they don't

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<v Speaker 2>if they don't become more attractive to a majority of

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<v Speaker 2>the voters.

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<v Speaker 4>So this is where this is what I The next

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<v Speaker 4>question I'm going to ask you.

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<v Speaker 1>Is what I love about the potential of ranked choice voting.

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<v Speaker 1>But even as I talk about the potential, I also

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<v Speaker 1>think to myself, you know, socialism sounds great on paper,

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<v Speaker 1>but the reality of socialism is much different than the

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<v Speaker 1>paper version of socialism, and I have concerns about ranked

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<v Speaker 1>choice voting. I want to talk specifically about what happened

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<v Speaker 1>in Alaska, because this is immediately the thing that gets

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<v Speaker 1>brought up.

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<v Speaker 4>In Alaska.

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<v Speaker 1>They had two Republicans running against one Democrat. The two

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<v Speaker 1>Republicans went at it in the primary, and the losing

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<v Speaker 1>primary candidate their voters did not vote for the Republican

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<v Speaker 1>in the general, and a Democrat ends up pointing a

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<v Speaker 1>House seat for Alaska, which is really crazy, just really crazy.

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<v Speaker 1>How do you explain to people that this is not

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<v Speaker 1>going to game the system in that way to where

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<v Speaker 1>if you have three Republicans running in one Democrat running,

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<v Speaker 1>the Republicans are not just going to eat each other.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, now, this one has been so misrepresentative and misunderstood,

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm glad you're bringing it up first, Mary Peltola.

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<v Speaker 2>That Democrat that got in actually got more first place

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<v Speaker 2>votes than the other two candidates right away from the

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<v Speaker 2>first round. But put that aside for a moment. Alaska

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<v Speaker 2>is misunderstood. Alaska only has twenty eight percent of their

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<v Speaker 2>voters registered Republican. Now that's twice as many as are

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<v Speaker 2>registered Democrats.

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<v Speaker 3>There's fourteen.

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<v Speaker 2>But fifty five percent of Alaska voters are fiercely independent.

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<v Speaker 2>And the reason it's viewed as this rock solid Republican

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<v Speaker 2>state is because they had closed primaries, and so the

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<v Speaker 2>two parties, even though they had less than fifty percent

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<v Speaker 2>of the voters, got to set all the rules of

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<v Speaker 2>the game, and that led to Republican domination. So what

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<v Speaker 2>happened in that general election is the Democratic candidate appealed,

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<v Speaker 2>not the two Republicans were still focused on the twenty

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<v Speaker 2>eight percent, plus some of.

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<v Speaker 3>The independents who always vote Republicans.

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<v Speaker 2>So they were focused on the thirty five percent that

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<v Speaker 2>were safe Republicans, and they let her focus on the

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<v Speaker 2>other sixty five percent of the population.

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<v Speaker 3>And so they learned a lesson.

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<v Speaker 2>Because one of the great things about ranked voting is

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<v Speaker 2>that you've got it represent the entire electorate, and it

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<v Speaker 2>makes sense for you to.

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<v Speaker 3>Be thoughtful with them and sensitive to them because they

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<v Speaker 3>can determine when or not you get reelected.

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<v Speaker 1>So essentially, and this is kind of how I have

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<v Speaker 1>have viewed it from the outside looking in.

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<v Speaker 4>The two Republican.

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<v Speaker 1>Candidates didn't get they didn't pay attention to the new

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<v Speaker 1>rules of the game, because ultimately, the real positive for

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<v Speaker 1>me and ranked choice voting is the potential to change

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<v Speaker 1>the way campaigns are run. Because to your point, you

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<v Speaker 1>can no longer just focus on the tiny, little and

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<v Speaker 1>getting smaller Republican or Democratic Party here in Colorado, you

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<v Speaker 1>have no choice but to campaign to everyone.

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<v Speaker 4>So I love that aspect of it.

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<v Speaker 1>But how long do you think it takes kent for politicians,

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<v Speaker 1>political systems, political consultants to figure out the new rules

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<v Speaker 1>of the game.

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<v Speaker 4>What kind of growing pains are we looking at here?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, certainly there won't be zero. That's not the way

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<v Speaker 2>democracies work. I mean, when when women's suffrage was put in,

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<v Speaker 2>When when minority voters were allowed, I mean, all these

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<v Speaker 2>things there are, it's clearly the right direction to go,

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<v Speaker 2>but there's always some speed bumps. But the factors elected

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<v Speaker 2>officials are really quick on this stuff, as much as

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<v Speaker 2>those two Republicans for some reason didn't seem to really

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<v Speaker 2>get it. So let's talk about the Alaska state Legislature,

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<v Speaker 2>which had been totally gridlocked for over a decade. They're

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<v Speaker 2>actually formed a bipartisan majority governing caucus, these and ours

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<v Speaker 2>to together, and they didn't even invite the fringe left

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<v Speaker 2>and the fringe right. They said, you guys have been

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<v Speaker 2>holding us back for a decade with not wanting to

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<v Speaker 2>compromise than anything. So the officially essentially formed almost a

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<v Speaker 2>new party, and that group is working together because now

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<v Speaker 2>to get re elected, the path is to get stuff

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<v Speaker 2>done as opposed to performative art or you want to

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<v Speaker 2>demonstrate how you never compromise. And so in Alaska, a

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<v Speaker 2>majority of the state legislature changed its demeanor and its

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<v Speaker 2>practices overnight, and they got a budget done in record

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<v Speaker 2>time that hadn't been done for a decade, and there

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<v Speaker 2>are other things like that, and so the elected officials

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<v Speaker 2>are pretty damned sensitive to the incentive system.

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<v Speaker 1>So I got a bunch of questions on our text

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<v Speaker 1>line because so let's kind of do these, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>as quickly as possible, but thoroughly as possible, because these

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<v Speaker 1>are all good questions. One of them is from Benita.

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<v Speaker 1>Ask him how you would audit rank choice voting? How

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<v Speaker 1>would that process work?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is where I'd have to have of our

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<v Speaker 2>elections experts give a technically satisfactory answer. What I can

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<v Speaker 2>tendue to tell you is that there's existing methodology and technology.

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<v Speaker 3>To do it. It's been do multiple times. That exists

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<v Speaker 3>out there. And the great thing.

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<v Speaker 2>That's happened now that there's sixty four places doing rank

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<v Speaker 2>voting across the country is there's an entire ecosystem of

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<v Speaker 2>pro bono support groups for voter education, material, for marketing material,

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<v Speaker 2>for technology enhancements. And the good news for Colorado is

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<v Speaker 2>ninety eight percent of our countanies are already have the

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<v Speaker 2>necessary technology in house and will help the other two percent.

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<v Speaker 1>So we already have the ability to do this, like

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<v Speaker 1>we have the technology, and we can make this happen.

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<v Speaker 3>Absolutely Now.

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<v Speaker 2>It takes hard work, and we want to develop with

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<v Speaker 2>the clerks a very significant and thoughtful implementation plan. We're

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<v Speaker 2>already in conversations with the governor and going through what

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<v Speaker 2>should be the line item and his proposed budget that

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<v Speaker 2>would include millions of dollars for supporting the clerks. So

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not saying it's easy. But we did Vork by mail.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of people said, oh my god, that's going

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<v Speaker 2>to lead to a cluster. We pulled it off well.

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<v Speaker 2>In twenty sixteen we did the semi open primaries, Oh

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<v Speaker 2>my gosh, everybody said this is too risky, you can't

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<v Speaker 2>do audits all that.

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<v Speaker 3>They were wrong again, So this one is no more

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<v Speaker 3>or less difficult.

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<v Speaker 2>You've got to be on your game, you've got to

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<v Speaker 2>have resources, but it's totally doable.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of people on the text line are sending

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<v Speaker 1>some variation of are you trying to cement Democrat power

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<v Speaker 1>in Colorado forever? Because their concern is and I'm going

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<v Speaker 1>to use the first Congressional District as an example because

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<v Speaker 1>it is reliably Democrat and my friend Valdemar Achiletta outstanding

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<v Speaker 1>candidate on the Republican side. He is fighting a don

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<v Speaker 1>Quixote like quest in that district just because of the

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<v Speaker 1>makeup of the district. So it stands to reason that

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<v Speaker 1>if you have an open primary, there could be four

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<v Speaker 1>Democrats that come out of that primary race.

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<v Speaker 4>How do you address that concern?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, here's what's it would be amusing if.

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<v Speaker 3>It wasn't such a serious topic.

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<v Speaker 2>I just had an hour long debate with the head

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<v Speaker 2>of the Democratic Party in here in Colorado and the

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<v Speaker 2>lead attorney, and they are petrified that passing this will

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<v Speaker 2>take away their supermajority status because we're going to put

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<v Speaker 2>more and more power back in the voters' hands and

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<v Speaker 2>put voters in the middle center, left, center, right and center,

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<v Speaker 2>put their voice and choice back in the game. And

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<v Speaker 2>so it's so ironic that we have on the one hand,

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<v Speaker 2>Dave Williams and Lauren Bobert against us on the our

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<v Speaker 2>public side, and then the head of the Democratic Party

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<v Speaker 2>on the Democratic side. And so that's kind of how

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<v Speaker 2>we know we're doing it right, and we're focused on

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<v Speaker 2>the voters because party leaders on each side. Now at

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<v Speaker 2>the same time, there's a number of hardcore partisans who

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<v Speaker 2>have endorsed this, including Governor Polis and Mayor Mike Johnston

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<v Speaker 2>from Denver on the Democratic side, and on the Republican side,

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<v Speaker 2>people like Dick Wadhams, who was the Republican Party chair

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<v Speaker 2>for the entire state and ran a bulk of the

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<v Speaker 2>successful Republican campaigns. He's on the team as well because

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<v Speaker 2>he thinks this could be to step forward to actually

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<v Speaker 2>restore relevance for the Republican Party.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I don't know if you answered the question specifically.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, and I've kind of been bouncing this around.

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<v Speaker 1>There are districts that there's almost a zero percent chance

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<v Speaker 1>the Republican's going to win in the general anyway. So

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<v Speaker 1>this would just kind of allow you, as a right

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<v Speaker 1>leaning person to at least have a say, and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>you could vote for your Republican candidate first and then

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<v Speaker 1>vote for the least crazy on the.

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<v Speaker 4>Other side, or vice versa.

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<v Speaker 1>You have that opportunity that for me is the thing

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<v Speaker 1>that you know, I'm trying to make a point of.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Okay, I hear what you're saying.

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<v Speaker 2>I apologize for going down a parallel path, but what

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<v Speaker 2>you say is exactly true. A district that's dominantly Democratic

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<v Speaker 2>should elect a Democratic person and the one that's dominantly

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<v Speaker 2>Republican should But what happens in the real world is

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<v Speaker 2>exactly what.

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<v Speaker 3>You just said.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's say there's a district is sixty five to thirty

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<v Speaker 2>five Democrat over Republican, and so that thirty five percent

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<v Speaker 2>their first vote will be for Mandy Connell because that's

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<v Speaker 2>their favorite Republican. Their number two vote, they're going to say,

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<v Speaker 2>I'd much rather have sort of an Amy Klobuch, you're

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<v Speaker 2>sort of person, not a Bernie Sanders, and so my

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<v Speaker 2>number two vote is going to be for the moderate Democrat.

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<v Speaker 3>Well that's very powerful because it means that.

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<v Speaker 2>You're not permanently disenfranchising the minority party in that district.

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<v Speaker 3>They actually have a voice.

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<v Speaker 2>And if you're the moderate Democratic state senator, for example,

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<v Speaker 2>you don't have to just run to Bernie Sanders to

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<v Speaker 2>try to get votes. Suddenly, you market yourself and you

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<v Speaker 2>listen to all the people in the minority because.

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<v Speaker 3>They're very relevant for you.

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<v Speaker 2>And I talked to one of our state senators just

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<v Speaker 2>a couple of days ago who had an actual competitive

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<v Speaker 2>race and and went door to door and it literally

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<v Speaker 2>changed her perspective on some policies by her going and

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<v Speaker 2>knocking on the Republican doors and the independent doors, not

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<v Speaker 2>just the Democratic she said. She said, if I win,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to be a way better leader because now

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<v Speaker 2>I spent time listening to them kind of for selfish reasons, but.

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<v Speaker 3>I got a lot out of it.

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<v Speaker 1>I have a follow up question on how the ranked

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<v Speaker 1>choice votes are counted, and this one seems like an

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<v Speaker 1>interesting question.

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<v Speaker 4>Mayby what happens if all.

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<v Speaker 1>The second choice on candidate C went to candidate D,

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<v Speaker 1>they were eliminated, then there was then you, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>how does that work? If you don't I mean, you

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<v Speaker 1>would have to have a clear majority though, if you

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<v Speaker 1>cleared out two candidates, right, No, I guess it could

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<v Speaker 1>be fifty to fifty.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, but fifty to fifty exactly only happens about one

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<v Speaker 2>out of every twenty thousand elections.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, once you get.

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<v Speaker 2>To where you're eliminating, you've eliminated number four and you

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<v Speaker 2>go to eliminate number three.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you're guaranteed to get a majority with someone.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, Also, let me get some I've got a bunch

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<v Speaker 1>of questions coming in here, Mandy. I'm sorry to harp

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<v Speaker 1>on this, But what he's describing is bolder and the

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<v Speaker 1>more popular moderate Democrat lost because of ranked choice voting.

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<v Speaker 4>And I'm talking about Bob Yates.

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<v Speaker 1>He should have won easily and he lost because of

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<v Speaker 1>ranked choice voting, and the progressives, the radical progressives, beat

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<v Speaker 1>him with ranked choice voting scam. So I know that

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<v Speaker 1>somebody's brought the Bob Yates situation to your attention, and

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<v Speaker 1>it almost it does kind of seem like the whole

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to get the moderated it failed. What do

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<v Speaker 1>you attribute that to?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean there's hundreds of elections in our state

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<v Speaker 2>every year, and in any system, you're going to have

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<v Speaker 2>some anomalies.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, it's just it's the nature of the beast.

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<v Speaker 2>And I don't know enough about that campaign to know

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<v Speaker 2>exactly what how the different competitors didn't in fact campaign.

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<v Speaker 2>But what I do know is that this system requires

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<v Speaker 2>that you get a majority support, and there's almost no

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<v Speaker 2>way to gain anything given you have to get to

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<v Speaker 2>that majority. It either exists or a doesn't. It's not

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<v Speaker 2>like top two in California, which is a flawed system,

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<v Speaker 2>because you can gain it with Top four, and you

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<v Speaker 2>need that majority I've never yet had anyone be able

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<v Speaker 2>to describe to me a real world scenario where someone

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<v Speaker 2>gamed it and succeeded. And I mean, I've been on

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<v Speaker 2>this trail for six months asking the question because I'm

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<v Speaker 2>sure it's happened somewhere, but not a single opponent has

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<v Speaker 2>ever been able to cite a single example of gaming.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, last comment, and I'll let you respond, and

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<v Speaker 1>then we've got to wrap it up. No rank choice voting.

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<v Speaker 1>I do not want to see two Democrats in the

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<v Speaker 1>general for governor or senator. I want both Republican and

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<v Speaker 1>Democrat policies to have their voices.

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<v Speaker 4>How do you respond to that?

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<v Speaker 2>That's why we feel so strongly about top four that

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<v Speaker 2>in our state, at least in the next fifty years,

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<v Speaker 2>there's never going to be a case where one party

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<v Speaker 2>would get all the top four spots.

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<v Speaker 3>And if it does happen, it doesn't it means the

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<v Speaker 3>other party.

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<v Speaker 2>Has virtually no support, correct, in which case they don't

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<v Speaker 2>deserve to be in the battle. So just like why

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<v Speaker 2>I can't comment on the Boulder situation, you know, in

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<v Speaker 2>a highly liberal spot or a highly conservative spot, that's

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<v Speaker 2>what they are. That outcome is appropriate we're not trying

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<v Speaker 2>to make moderates everywhere.

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<v Speaker 3>And I'll close this for this, Mandy.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not that we're looking for a world where every

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<v Speaker 2>candidate lives in the middle.

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<v Speaker 3>What we're looking for is a world where.

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<v Speaker 2>Every candidate is willing to meet in the middle when

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<v Speaker 2>common sense dictates on things like immigration, where the people

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<v Speaker 2>would have reached a consensus compromised twenty years ago.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Kent theory. I appreciate what you're trying to do here.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to be putting my voter Go voter Guide

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<v Speaker 1>out on Monday, but considering the disastrous state of the

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<v Speaker 1>current Republican Party, I'm relatively certain at this point it's.

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<v Speaker 4>A yes for me.

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<v Speaker 2>Now.

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<v Speaker 4>That won't help you because my.

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<v Speaker 1>Endorsement is the kiss of death, but I'm just letting

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<v Speaker 1>you know for what it's worth, I'm convinced I'm ready

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<v Speaker 1>to shake things up and I'm ready to do something

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<v Speaker 1>different because what we're doing now clearly is not working.

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<v Speaker 4>Ken. I really appreciate your time today.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, thank you, Mandy so much.

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<v Speaker 2>And I agree that this is a time where the

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<v Speaker 2>status quo is broken and America needs to step up

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<v Speaker 2>and fix it.

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<v Speaker 4>All right, that's Kent Theory. Thank you Kent