Speaker 1: This is pod Popular Podcast for the People, The Great
Speaker 1: Love Debate. It's Great Love Debate, the Great Love Debate.
Speaker 2: It's a Great Love Debase. Hi again, everyone's Brian Howie.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Great Love Debate, the world's number one
Speaker 2: dating relationship podcast since twenty fifteen. I'm back here in
Speaker 2: the very fine studios of Pod Popular Podcasts for the People.
Speaker 2: I'm back of the one in Boca Ratone, Florida. It
Speaker 2: is peak peak season in Boca Raton, Florida. And if
Speaker 2: you've been in any part of Florida during season, you
Speaker 2: know that A there's traffic, but B traffic's probably worth
Speaker 2: it because it's lovely. Speaking of lovely, as I record this,
Speaker 2: I think in your podcasting roster here we are up
Speaker 2: to like episode four nineties something. I don't know exactly
Speaker 2: what this is before ninety something. So we are closing
Speaker 2: in on our five hundredth episode. Now, to get technical
Speaker 2: with us, probably about thirty five or forty shows got
Speaker 2: lost in the sands of time that we did back
Speaker 2: during our Corolla digital days. Our podcast one guys, and
Speaker 2: no offence to them, they were great. But when you
Speaker 2: back ten years ago, when you transferred feeds around or whatever.
Speaker 2: Not all of them got transferred, some of them got lost.
Speaker 2: Some are really good with some really famous people, so
Speaker 2: maybe I'll find them and release them as a best
Speaker 2: of But for practical purposes, we are closing in on
Speaker 2: our five hundredth episode, and I asked you guys to
Speaker 2: send us suggestions of what I should do for my
Speaker 2: five hundredth episode. I can't believe the amount of people
Speaker 2: who want to do ask me to do it nude,
Speaker 2: which is crazy because you assume I'm not doing it
Speaker 2: nude already, which is dumb. So I want some ideas.
Speaker 2: I don't want to just sit here and do a
Speaker 2: retrospective of five hundredth I want to do something. If
Speaker 2: there's a guest you want, we can get just about
Speaker 2: everybody pretty popular. If there's a subject you want. If
Speaker 2: there's something, shoot me an email, great love debate at
Speaker 2: gmail dot com and tell me what do you want
Speaker 2: to hear for episode five hundred, Because in the podcasting world,
Speaker 2: five hundred episodes is a very very rare thing. Most
Speaker 2: people don't to talk about anything for ten straight years.
Speaker 2: I will talk about this forever. So when we do
Speaker 2: episode five thousand, five hundred is gonna seem point. I
Speaker 2: remember when I did my one hundredth live show and
Speaker 2: we had a big celebration, and I was like, people
Speaker 2: are like, oh, wow, you did a hundred live shows.
Speaker 2: That's amazing. We're like four point thirty now. So anyway,
Speaker 2: something we do not do enough in these five hundred
Speaker 2: or so shows is we don't have enough dudes on
Speaker 2: the show. We don't have enough men on the show.
Speaker 2: And some of our highest rated shows we've ever had
Speaker 2: have involved us talking to some fellas about life experiences
Speaker 2: that people always ask me that, And there's a practical reason,
Speaker 2: and there's a personal reason. The personal reason is women
Speaker 2: just look better and smell better in the studio, so
Speaker 2: I'd rather have them around. But the practical reason is
Speaker 2: that women like to talk about this stuff, love, sex, dating,
Speaker 2: relationship a lot more than men do, or at least
Speaker 2: that's the perception. And maybe it's because I'm not asking
Speaker 2: the questions enough of the men. And maybe it's because
Speaker 2: you know, we're not giving the men the credit for
Speaker 2: being as open and honest and vulnerablebout this stuff. You
Speaker 2: guys know me, You know I've changed a bunch over
Speaker 2: the last couple of years. So I'm bringing in somebody
Speaker 2: here today. I guess that on his podcast and it
Speaker 2: was great, and he had me ask a lot of
Speaker 2: questions about my own journey. He is one of the
Speaker 2: co hosts of the very popular back nine podcast, and
Speaker 2: back nine is not entirely about golf, and he will
Speaker 2: get into that a second. And I was glad to
Speaker 2: have him in here today because he has a really
Speaker 2: interesting story, really into someting journey that I think not
Speaker 2: only the men will like, but I think the women
Speaker 2: will like it too. Dennis Williams, how are you.
Speaker 1: I'm doing great, Thanks for having me in.
Speaker 2: I want to start off this way. You were married
Speaker 2: a long time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, got married young, twenty seven. I just turned twenty
Speaker 3: seven years old and was married almost twenty years, which
Speaker 3: beautiful daughters, and yeah for that marriage, and it.
Speaker 2: Was great twenty You know, getting married this your late
Speaker 2: twenties is not crazy. It's not like you married I
Speaker 2: don't think she was your high school sweetheart or anything.
Speaker 2: But you got married, and you go through your late twenties,
Speaker 2: you go through your thirties, ye're into your forties, and
Speaker 2: you're pretty much like this is it right? And then
Speaker 2: suddenly twenty years in for whatever reason, you're shot back
Speaker 2: out and to the single universe. Confused, not entirely hopeful,
Speaker 2: probably a little bit broken, like a lot of people are. Right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was really broken. I actually thought I was done.
Speaker 3: I think part of it was my self esteem had
Speaker 3: been dropped so much by her and the blind side
Speaker 3: that happened from the breakup, that I really thought at
Speaker 3: forty six, forty seven years old, that I was toast,
Speaker 3: that I had no chance to meet somebody that I
Speaker 3: didn't really understand. And it's so laughable to me now,
Speaker 3: you know, based on our podcast, your podcast and all
Speaker 3: the people you talk to and what you know, and
Speaker 3: then you're twenty seven is the sweets I realized that, man,
Speaker 3: I was a freaking unicorn, you know. I mean basically,
Speaker 3: somebody told me that, and I've used that again for
Speaker 3: my other friends that have gotten divorced or split up.
Speaker 3: I'm like, it's you have a job, you can talk,
Speaker 3: you're like normal, you haven't served time, like young enough to.
Speaker 2: Be a dad still if your choices are like twenty
Speaker 2: one to fifty five.
Speaker 3: The only thing that did draw the line in the
Speaker 3: stand is I wasn't gonna have more kids.
Speaker 1: R I did. I did.
Speaker 3: I did get that part through it. It didn't allow
Speaker 3: me to go really young. But the women at least
Speaker 3: look at you as a candidate. They don't know that
Speaker 3: until they talked to you.
Speaker 1: Good point, yeah, good point. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So it's one of those things where I but at
Speaker 3: the time, man, it took me a while. It took
Speaker 3: me dating apps. It took me going on dates to
Speaker 3: realize it, and and and actually it took me looking
Speaker 3: at dating apps to see what the pool was.
Speaker 1: And you realize, okay, well, I'm gonna be okay.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean that's the well. I mean, you could
Speaker 2: have just gone outside. You're gonna be okay, there's people outside.
Speaker 2: But that's the thing. When you got married, there were
Speaker 2: no dating apps or pretty much that. There might have
Speaker 2: been like a match dot com or something, but twenty years.
Speaker 1: Ago even think so, no, I it was uh yeah,
Speaker 1: everything was very organic. Uh it was.
Speaker 3: I was married in ninety seven, so so everything was
Speaker 3: very very organic, the.
Speaker 2: Old fashioned way in the bars and that's where and
Speaker 2: so yeah, and then you go and it's like, can
Speaker 2: I have your phone number? And you'd write it on
Speaker 2: a napkin and you call her up and ask her
Speaker 2: out and pick her up and do all. It was
Speaker 2: different right now it's uh swipe, text, meet up, hangout. Yeah,
Speaker 2: was this really a date? I don't know. So you
Speaker 2: get out there and you must know. I don't want
Speaker 2: to get into why you got divorced, but obviously you
Speaker 2: said it was painful. So you're coming out of that
Speaker 2: and you're probably like, that was my relationship? Do I
Speaker 2: have fifty years ahead of being by myself? And you
Speaker 2: know your dad and all that. There's some solace in that,
Speaker 2: but you're like, what is the first thing you're thinking?
Speaker 2: And how long does it take between the time you
Speaker 2: got divorced and the time that you're like, I gotta
Speaker 2: try something. Is that six days or is it like
Speaker 2: a long time?
Speaker 1: It's a couple of months.
Speaker 3: And then it's those first few uh, you know, dates, hookups.
Speaker 1: Those kinds of I think it's the first. Honestly for a.
Speaker 3: Guy, it's like the first hookup. If you've been faithful
Speaker 3: to somebody for twenty years, it's like, Okay, I hooked
Speaker 3: up again. I'm gonna be all right. So riding a bike,
Speaker 3: you know, it's one of those things where you got
Speaker 3: you have to hook up a few times and you're like,
Speaker 3: this hasn't changed.
Speaker 2: This seems the sense I'm still all right.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So once you do that that, I mean it's shallow,
Speaker 3: but that's where guys get a lot of their confidence.
Speaker 1: Like you know.
Speaker 3: You're attracted to somebody. It leads to that and you're okay, Like,
Speaker 3: literally you have to go through that, you by riding
Speaker 3: a bike. You have to ride that bike a few
Speaker 3: times before you get your mojo back.
Speaker 2: Well, what it means is somebody finds me on some
Speaker 2: level desirous. Right, everybody just think I'm gross? There's some
Speaker 2: possibility like that is really the first step because we think,
Speaker 2: I would say this is men. We think they think
Speaker 2: we're disgusting because that's the way we look at ourselves.
Speaker 2: And so you go back out there and somebody is
Speaker 2: even mildly interested in you, that's step one to getting
Speaker 2: your confidence back. Because you're always you're trying to leave
Speaker 2: the past relationship and the pain of that in the
Speaker 2: rear view mirror. You're not trying to bring that into
Speaker 2: a relationship. You're just kind of baby stepping your way
Speaker 2: back into is there even a possibility that I could
Speaker 2: be happy again? Much less being a long term relationship.
Speaker 3: There's that, and there's also kind of once you do
Speaker 3: take those next steps, they are also trusting and deciding
Speaker 3: whether you really want to be friends with somebody of
Speaker 3: the opposite sex again and going through all of that
Speaker 3: stuff again or is it just going.
Speaker 1: To be physical.
Speaker 3: Like that's the the other thing you have to navigate.
Speaker 3: I mean, for the for the first part, you know,
Speaker 3: if I was going to give any guy advice is
Speaker 3: take your freaking time, man, Like, don't don't jump right back.
Speaker 3: It's so I've seen so many guys I have a
Speaker 3: friend right now that's kind of done this that you
Speaker 3: just you almost overlap, you go, you have to go
Speaker 3: back into that like codependent jumping back into a relationship
Speaker 3: thing because that's all, you know, and the best thing
Speaker 3: that I ever did. I did that for a little
Speaker 3: while and I realized it was bad. So I went
Speaker 3: and I vowed to not get in a relationship for
Speaker 3: a year, like one full year, no relationship. I would date,
Speaker 3: but there was gonna be nobody who I said, you're
Speaker 3: my girlfriend, that's it, and I needed that full That's.
Speaker 2: A pretty hard it's smart, but that's a pretty hard
Speaker 2: line in the sand because then you're dating with only
Speaker 2: sort of one foot in. That's tough on them.
Speaker 3: Absolutely is absolutely, But I think if you're transparent about it,
Speaker 3: you know it can work.
Speaker 1: You just the word is I'm not ready.
Speaker 2: Right, But a lot of times what we're trying to
Speaker 2: do when we run back out there is to replace
Speaker 2: the routine, replace the comfort. This is who I talk
Speaker 2: to every day, and so you have to be ready.
Speaker 2: I always tell people you have to get to a
Speaker 2: point where you go twenty four straight hours without thinking
Speaker 2: about the last person with anything that gives you any
Speaker 2: sort of emotion strong either way, if you get over
Speaker 2: that one day, like I didn't really think of them,
Speaker 2: they don't make me mad, they din't can be sided
Speaker 2: and miss them. That is the biggest step to getting
Speaker 2: over the hump, and that could take a long time.
Speaker 2: After twenty years, I assume it takes forever, especially because
Speaker 2: you probably have to still be in contact with your
Speaker 2: ex and you're co parenting. I don't know if you're
Speaker 2: in court. I don't know what's happening with the divorce,
Speaker 2: but it's complicated.
Speaker 1: I used anger. That's what made it for me.
Speaker 3: I mean I had to be angry for a while
Speaker 3: and have zero forgiveness and just be mad.
Speaker 1: That was the only way I could draw that line.
Speaker 3: And that happens a lot, and that was the only
Speaker 3: thing I could do. It was the only way I
Speaker 3: could heal. I eventually got over that, but it started
Speaker 3: with that.
Speaker 2: The question I asked people when they got divorced is
Speaker 2: not why did you get divorced? I don't care about that.
Speaker 2: I say, when did you know it wasn't going to
Speaker 2: last forever? Was it in year twenty? Was it that
Speaker 2: late that you're like this might not last forever?
Speaker 3: It was pretty shocking? Yeah, I mean for me it was.
Speaker 3: I mean we got divorced at twenty. It was more
Speaker 3: like you're eighteen nineteen. Yeah, I was pretty I was
Speaker 3: pretty shocked.
Speaker 2: That's a long way to go down the road. Mentally, yeah,
Speaker 2: physically emotionally thinking this part of my life is fine.
Speaker 2: I have my wife and my family, and this is it.
Speaker 2: I never have to think about going back out there again.
Speaker 3: It's why I started with the conversation about how it
Speaker 3: hit me like a ton of bricks and I didn't
Speaker 3: think I would ever because I I wasn't ready for it.
Speaker 3: There's some people that are in miserable marriages. Yeah, pairing
Speaker 3: for it for ten years. A lot of people are
Speaker 3: counting down till the youngest is eighteen. Yes, I believe me.
Speaker 3: I know people that are doing that right un till
Speaker 3: they're out of the house. Yeah, we can, we can
Speaker 3: go separate ways.
Speaker 2: How did you resist your friends or especially your friends wives,
Speaker 2: from saying I've got somebody for you, like trying to
Speaker 2: immediately find somebody for you. Did that happen a lot
Speaker 2: or people.
Speaker 3: Just kind of distance themselves, Yeah, or I got some Yeah,
Speaker 3: I've got somebody that you can meet. Actually, that did
Speaker 3: get me into a relationship for a little while in
Speaker 3: the community I lived in California. That was that codependent
Speaker 3: thing that I wasn't ready for kind of deals. So
Speaker 3: I did kind of fall into that comfort trap for
Speaker 3: a little while. And then that was a pretty harsh
Speaker 3: breakup and was precipitated my time alone.
Speaker 1: That was so necessary.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not even about people thinking can I love again?
Speaker 2: It's people thinking can I trust again?
Speaker 1: And that is the thing that was me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a lot of people. Once that is broken,
Speaker 2: it's really it takes a long time and you and
Speaker 2: and even that impedes a new relationship because you're not
Speaker 2: even prepared to go, And then that's unfair to that
Speaker 2: person that like, I don't trust you and has nothing
Speaker 2: to do with you. I don't trust me, I don't
Speaker 2: trust the situation. I don't want to get hurt again.
Speaker 2: And so you're dating with these restrictions on it just
Speaker 2: it's hard.
Speaker 3: Well, the other thing about trust is trust is insecurity sometimes.
Speaker 3: So I was I was very insecure about you know,
Speaker 3: is this person gonna be faithful?
Speaker 1: What are they gonna be like?
Speaker 3: And all those kinds of things, And I had to
Speaker 3: get to the point where it didn't the outcome didn't
Speaker 3: matter because I'm gonna be fine.
Speaker 1: That's what you have to get to. You trust is
Speaker 1: a lot of Am I gonna be okay? If it
Speaker 1: goes that way? Right? Like if it goes sour? Am
Speaker 1: I gonna be all right?
Speaker 3: You really do trust more if you realize that if
Speaker 3: you're comfortable and know that you've already you've already been
Speaker 3: through the worst thing you could possibly go through, So
Speaker 3: everything else is just relative scales of that, and I'm
Speaker 3: gonna be fine. It would have hurt, right, but I'm
Speaker 3: gonna be fine. Even my new wife, like it's amazing
Speaker 3: right now, But if someday it's not like this time,
Speaker 3: I would be okay. I don't want to get though.
Speaker 2: Yeah. See, that is the thing. It's a little bit
Speaker 2: of an advantage that the women have is the women
Speaker 2: early on have more at a younger age, more crushes,
Speaker 2: more I like this boy, and they get their heart
Speaker 2: broken more early. Men really don't. And then when it
Speaker 2: goes bad, it goes bad for the men, but they
Speaker 2: don't build that up the way the women do. The
Speaker 2: women kind of expect it to go bad a little bit.
Speaker 2: For the men. It is a total blind side, especially
Speaker 2: if there's things like in fidelity or like it is
Speaker 2: just not something you're mentally prepared for that. I think
Speaker 2: women do prepare for that a little bit better so
Speaker 2: when it happens to a guy. And also generally when
Speaker 2: a man his friends scatter, it's not like you have
Speaker 2: the support group like women have, like let's go away
Speaker 2: for the weekend, and guys suck and they sort of rally.
Speaker 2: Men are sort of left to find this on their own.
Speaker 2: It's hard to talk about. It's hard to be vulnerable.
Speaker 2: You don't want to watch around with the broken heart.
Speaker 2: You don't want to, you know, lead with Ti'm hurt.
Speaker 2: You don't want to be on a first date talking
Speaker 2: about your ex and so there's not a lot of
Speaker 2: outlets besides therapy. And that's a different and drink. And
Speaker 2: I was just about that's so funny A brought that.
Speaker 2: I was like, what I did? What was your vibe?
Speaker 2: I was going to be like as a video games
Speaker 2: that you're drinking?
Speaker 1: I drank.
Speaker 2: I what I would do in Irish boy from Massachusetts,
Speaker 2: quite Irish, Scottish, We'll go to that.
Speaker 3: So what I would do is I couldn't be home alone,
Speaker 3: so I would plan something. I would right after work.
Speaker 3: I would plan to meet friends. I would plan to
Speaker 3: go to the golf course. I would plan to do
Speaker 3: something every night, and every single time it involved alcohol.
Speaker 1: Like I had to be out.
Speaker 3: I couldn't be home with my own thoughts alone, So
Speaker 3: I was always planning on being out. Yeah, and I
Speaker 3: look back and I drank a lot. What was your
Speaker 3: drinking like before though? During marriage?
Speaker 2: Radically different from them.
Speaker 3: It was you know, social social drinking. It wasn't like
Speaker 3: I drank every night or all the time, but it
Speaker 3: was like heavy drink socially. So it was easy for
Speaker 3: it to go even to another level when that social
Speaker 3: became every day right right, all right.
Speaker 2: I gotta take a quick break because we gotta pay
Speaker 2: for booze around here. I'm Dennis Williams. He's from the
Speaker 2: Back nine podcast. I'm going to get into how this
Speaker 2: turn in the corner. But I took a break. We
Speaker 2: will be back right after this. And we are back.
Speaker 2: So you're dating you? Do you spend some time alone?
Speaker 2: What is the metric for? Okay? I think I'm okay.
Speaker 2: Now when do I come out of the cave? Did you?
Speaker 3: I don't think there is one. So I was fully
Speaker 3: not expecting to get in another serious relationship when I
Speaker 3: met my current wife or back. In fact, I figured
Speaker 3: I would be single forever, Like I didn't want to
Speaker 3: get married again. I really didn't. It was it was
Speaker 3: actually my mantra. I'm like, I don't know, I don't
Speaker 3: it's sort of like what you said on our show.
Speaker 3: I don't see a reason for it, Like I don't
Speaker 3: need to get married.
Speaker 2: A lot of divorce people. The fantasy's gone right happily,
Speaker 2: A rafter's gone.
Speaker 1: Right right right.
Speaker 3: So I had no intention, and you know, I met
Speaker 3: this amazing woman who's become my best friend and somebody.
Speaker 3: What it came down to for me, why I decided
Speaker 3: to finally get married, to jump ahead, and why I
Speaker 3: turned the corner was because when you vow to be
Speaker 3: with somebody, the other vows were broken. Right when you
Speaker 3: vow to be it takes the relationship to another level.
Speaker 3: And I was right about that. I wasn't sure, and
Speaker 3: it's only been a couple of months, but I could
Speaker 3: tell right away that it changed things in a positive way.
Speaker 3: Not that we couldn't have gone through life like the
Speaker 3: way we were happy and together. Plenty of people do it,
Speaker 3: but for me, a little bit of it is faith
Speaker 3: and spirituality. It was this momentary opportunity to tell the world,
Speaker 3: this is the person I want to be with, and
Speaker 3: to some respects, it was to also say to my kids,
Speaker 3: this is the person I want to be with, not
Speaker 3: your mom, like even though that ship is sailed, Like
Speaker 3: the found somebody that supersedes her in my life, and
Speaker 3: I need to tell the world that.
Speaker 1: So that was something. It's all it all works.
Speaker 2: Together, if that makes sense. Was not to pry On,
Speaker 2: that was your ex wife dating. She's married, she's remarried,
Speaker 2: but was she during during the time of your drinking
Speaker 2: in alone time, were you monitoring what she was doing or.
Speaker 1: I'm sure matter, it didn't matter. I'm sure she was. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sure she was.
Speaker 2: So was the first serious relationship you came when you
Speaker 2: when you, like Andy dufran came out of solitary confinement
Speaker 2: and was that is that your wife? No?
Speaker 3: No, no, no, okay, I actually lived with somebody else
Speaker 3: for a little while.
Speaker 2: So you between you come out of that and you're like, okay,
Speaker 2: mentally I'm ready to start dating again. How quickly do
Speaker 2: you share the I went through this, I don't know
Speaker 2: if I trust, Like, are you open.
Speaker 3: About it when you're ready to start doing I'm open.
Speaker 3: I'm open to it. And what I found was, you know,
Speaker 3: nobody cared. They wanted to be in a relationship and
Speaker 3: they wanted to I found that they wanted to fix
Speaker 3: it for me. Yeah, they wanted to fix me and
Speaker 3: fix it, and I look, I was like a I
Speaker 3: was like a project.
Speaker 2: Well a lot of times because the women have gone
Speaker 2: through it, they do know a lot better and they
Speaker 2: want you to be if you're open about the women
Speaker 2: are like, we know you guys are screwed up, if
Speaker 2: you know, and you kind of tell us how we
Speaker 2: can work around anything. Women are very forgiving and they're
Speaker 2: very like you said, they're willing to fix what is broken.
Speaker 2: If you're like, listen, I'm gonna have trouble trusting or
Speaker 2: I went through this. I drank a lot, I had
Speaker 2: to heal and I had to do that. They like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's vulnerable too, so it gives them power. Like
Speaker 3: I was very vulnerable, Like that was the problem too,
Speaker 3: So I was.
Speaker 1: I was.
Speaker 3: I put up with a lot of things that I
Speaker 3: shouldn't have. I was a little bit submissive at the
Speaker 3: time because I hadn't figured it out. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3: I was really Yeah, I was really in a dark place.
Speaker 2: I know I've been there. People who listen to this podcast,
Speaker 2: they know about my sort of estrangement from my family
Speaker 2: and dead to Me podcasts and a stranger podcast Gosten
Speaker 2: go listen to that one. And I used to be
Speaker 2: deeply ashamed of that because people do not necessarily want
Speaker 2: to get into a relationship with somebody who doesn't have
Speaker 2: a close relationship with their family. Your dad is sitting
Speaker 2: fifteen feet away from you, You're not one of those people.
Speaker 2: And I used to just hide it. I used to
Speaker 2: just been like, oh, I guess I talked to my
Speaker 2: mom whatever. And now I lead with it because it
Speaker 2: is such a big part of me and who I am,
Speaker 2: and at my vulnert, I'm like, you need to know
Speaker 2: so I don't Seven months down the road, it's Christmas
Speaker 2: time and you're like, are we going to see your family?
Speaker 2: And I'm like, actually, I haven't talked to him in
Speaker 2: fourteen years. They don't want that right, And I'm not
Speaker 2: ashamed of it anymore. I'm not ashamed to tell the
Speaker 2: woman i'm dating that this matters to me, that I
Speaker 2: have this part of me that is I don't even
Speaker 2: know it's healing, but it is painful. I think they
Speaker 2: women like that more. And you said, when you came
Speaker 2: out of there and you were forty seven years old,
Speaker 2: and you're you're probably forty seven, you're always thinking I'm
Speaker 2: almost fifty. They don't think of it that way. They
Speaker 2: think of as your mid forties, but you're thinking almost
Speaker 2: fifty and almost fifty. You're like, oh my god, who's
Speaker 2: going to date that. I get a discount of Denny's.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, that's kind of it. You go
Speaker 2: through relationships so you live with somebody your dead. When
Speaker 2: is it that got your hope back? Right? Getting in
Speaker 2: a relationship where I don't know if you said I
Speaker 2: love you or any of that stuff, but you began
Speaker 2: to trust again, the hope kicked in. Do you remember
Speaker 2: that moment where you're no longer afraid that this could
Speaker 2: work out?
Speaker 3: I think it was the realization that I could be
Speaker 3: like with somebody regularly all the time and relatively healthy.
Speaker 3: I still in that relationship, I still wasn't healthy. I
Speaker 3: hadn't hadn't done the work, I hadn't spent time alone.
Speaker 3: So there was no light bulb moment. The light bulb
Speaker 3: moment came on after that. It really did when I
Speaker 3: when I realized, you know, you talk about family, and
Speaker 3: family is also your community, your friends that you lean on.
Speaker 3: And I mean our podcast was born from that time.
Speaker 3: It was born from me talking to Josh, my podcast partner,
Speaker 3: and hit him and I helping each other through that
Speaker 3: period and realizing that we were both talking about stuff
Speaker 3: that guys don't talk about.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: So that's really the light bulb moment for me was
Speaker 3: realizing that Okay, I can talk about this stuff. I
Speaker 3: can get through it, and I'm gonna be stronger on
Speaker 3: the other side.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you had to get sober a little bit
Speaker 2: to do that. You had to just slow down. So
Speaker 2: did the the awakening happen and the drinking slow down
Speaker 2: or the drinking slowed down and the awakening happened.
Speaker 3: I would say the awakening happened and the drinking slowed down.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: A little of that also became the realization that, you know,
Speaker 3: I'm pretty health conscious now. You get in your fifties
Speaker 3: and you're like, i gotta start taking better care of myself.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna be around here for my kids and everything else. So,
Speaker 3: you know, it was it was a little bit of
Speaker 3: that too. It was a little bit of health consciousness.
Speaker 2: How old were your kids when you got divorced.
Speaker 1: They were nineteen and fifteen, about to turn sixteen.
Speaker 2: Okay, so they're they're aware of what you're going through.
Speaker 2: So are they like, Dad, you got a date or
Speaker 2: get or they don't want to?
Speaker 3: Amazingly supportive. My oldest daughter was a freshman at U.
Speaker 3: See Santa Barbara and I have a very vivid recollection
Speaker 3: of going down and if you know, California. We were
Speaker 3: on State Street in Santa Barbara, and she took Dad
Speaker 3: shopping to show them the cool clothes wide sidewalks into Yeah.
Speaker 1: That I needed to wear. She bought me.
Speaker 3: She helped me buy a she's a college because she
Speaker 3: didn't buy it. She helped me pick out a cool outfit.
Speaker 3: I think I still have the jean jacket, yeah, but
Speaker 3: she helped me pick out. She was she was on
Speaker 3: board with getting Dad back out on the on the
Speaker 3: scene and helpful to that.
Speaker 2: First time I went to you see Santa Barbara, I
Speaker 2: was like, I'm so glad I didn't go here. I
Speaker 2: would have failed out in like two seconds.
Speaker 1: Can I tell you that was insane?
Speaker 3: Can I tell you that when I took her there,
Speaker 3: I said, thank god my parents didn' show me this.
Speaker 3: I would have done anything I could possibly do to
Speaker 3: get into school. I would have gone to the community
Speaker 3: college beforehand. I would have done whatever it took to
Speaker 3: get into school. Anybody who ever has visited at school
Speaker 3: has to want to go there.
Speaker 2: Right on the water, girls are in bikinis. It's insane.
Speaker 1: It's an insane place. And if you saw where if
Speaker 1: you saw where she lived, her junior and your senior year.
Speaker 3: The sorority houses that they they owned that are like,
Speaker 3: you know, ten million dollar properties and they're each paying
Speaker 3: nine hundred dollars is sleep nine hundred dollars a month
Speaker 3: to sleep in a garage.
Speaker 1: And I have three other girls. It's crazy.
Speaker 2: Shout out you see Santa Barbara Gauchos or whoever you are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Gauchos as good job.
Speaker 2: Tell me about your How do you you get out
Speaker 2: a couple of relationships? You're then back out single again,
Speaker 2: but you are different because you're more confident. You're like, Okay,
Speaker 2: eventually somebody will work out. So you're in a space
Speaker 2: now or an environment confidence wise and hope wise that
Speaker 2: your current wife can walk into that. Yeah, how did
Speaker 2: that happen?
Speaker 1: Random meeting down in South Florida.
Speaker 3: I was here during COVID on business in West Palm
Speaker 3: Beach and I knew her. I had known about her
Speaker 3: she's mutual friends for a while, and I knew she
Speaker 3: lived in It's kind of serendipity. I was in Delray
Speaker 3: Beach at a hotel Delray Beach, Florida, and I knew
Speaker 3: she lived in South Florida. I thought she lived closer
Speaker 3: to Lauderdale. She was a mile from my hotel, and
Speaker 3: I messaged her to tell me a little bit about
Speaker 3: South Florida. I'm thinking of moving from California. My full
Speaker 3: family's on the East Coast. I'm getting out of California.
Speaker 3: I want to move to Florida. I'm done with California.
Speaker 3: Tell me a little bit about South Florida. I know
Speaker 3: Central Florida, know other parts of the state. So we
Speaker 3: meet out at a restaurant in Delray and it's still COVID,
Speaker 3: so it's kind of quiet, and we spent five hours
Speaker 3: having wine and laughing, and I'm like, I'm about to
Speaker 3: I'm supposed to schedule a flight for the next I'm like,
Speaker 3: i gotta stay one more day. So I stay one
Speaker 3: more night. We go out to kind of on a
Speaker 3: more traditional date, have a blast. I will tell you
Speaker 3: what I knew right away was you don't know right away.
Speaker 3: I don't know that I believe in this whole lot.
Speaker 3: I believe it lust it first site. I don't believe
Speaker 3: in love it first sight. Here's what I do believe in.
Speaker 3: I believe a sense of humor. Match is immediate, and
Speaker 3: if you can laugh with somebody non stop for two
Speaker 3: days and have.
Speaker 1: The same sort of silly sense of humor.
Speaker 3: Then you're onto something and the rest of it sort
Speaker 3: of like falls into place. But the match for me
Speaker 3: has always been do you have the same humor I have?
Speaker 2: Was she divorce?
Speaker 3: Yes, she was married only for a couple of years,
Speaker 3: but she's been with the guy that she was married
Speaker 3: for like six years.
Speaker 2: So at this point, though, because you've had these healing
Speaker 2: relationships in between, you're not necessarily you can focus on
Speaker 2: laughing and having fun or whatever. You're not so like leading.
Speaker 2: You're not leading with the pain anymore.
Speaker 3: No, not at all to the point where again I
Speaker 3: I it was really just starting out as like a
Speaker 3: fun friendship relationship. Let's just have a good time and
Speaker 3: see where this goes. And then the connection just got
Speaker 3: stronger and stronger and stronger. But it was because it
Speaker 3: was really more about just like fitting together and having fun.
Speaker 2: And so you leave the second day, you have the
Speaker 2: second day, and then you leave town. When do you
Speaker 2: start thinking I need to get back there to see
Speaker 2: her again? Is it when you're on a plane out.
Speaker 1: Well, it's a really good story.
Speaker 3: Actually I went to I as part of still finding
Speaker 3: myself I had scheduled a trip to Saint John in
Speaker 3: the US Virgin Islands.
Speaker 1: For three weeks. Wow, And I had a place there.
Speaker 3: And when I went there, my family was there hanging
Speaker 3: out with me for a week. And then I knew
Speaker 3: I was going to spend the last week alone. And
Speaker 3: rather than spend it alone, I said, do you want
Speaker 3: to it's COVID, you want to come out and just
Speaker 3: you got to get a test and just nobody's here, come,
Speaker 3: come hang out. And she came planning on being there
Speaker 3: for three days, and she changed her flight twice and
Speaker 3: stayed for a week, and then I flew back.
Speaker 2: So you'dn't eve been out twice. And then she was
Speaker 2: willing to travel. Yeah, good for her.
Speaker 3: Yeah, see ladies, starting it, Yes, get on the damn plane,
Speaker 3: start it.
Speaker 1: Yes, plenty of time to say no.
Speaker 3: Then, So the next part of it was I was
Speaker 3: supposed to go back to California for New Year's and
Speaker 3: I came down to Delray Beach for New Year's rere
Speaker 3: you'ro out on my trip, And then count of the
Speaker 3: rest was history that year.
Speaker 2: And when did you start to change in your mind?
Speaker 2: I might be open to getting married.
Speaker 3: That took a while, so that took a few couple
Speaker 3: of years. After that, it was sort of realizing that
Speaker 3: I wanted to, like all the things I said before,
Speaker 3: I wanted to solidify this as more than just my girlfriend.
Speaker 2: I say that all the time. There needs to be
Speaker 2: another term, you know. I say that like I want somebody,
Speaker 2: because a lot of people don't necessarily want to get
Speaker 2: married again, but I want to be like, listen, I
Speaker 2: want a term that separates you from all of the
Speaker 2: other girlfriends besides fiance, besides wife. That is like, you're
Speaker 2: the one. I don't know what that term as yet.
Speaker 2: I would say just like like, that's the girl, and
Speaker 2: people know what that means. But societally, we need to
Speaker 2: come up with a term that we don't want to
Speaker 2: get married but we are in.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't disagree with you, but I would also say,
Speaker 3: reflect on if marriage meant something to you at one point,
Speaker 3: why did it mean something when you were with that
Speaker 3: person and it doesn't mean something to you when you're
Speaker 3: with somebody better.
Speaker 2: Well, I could see, yeah, I can know.
Speaker 1: What I mean that.
Speaker 3: That to me is like, at one point it meant
Speaker 3: something to you to make that commitment and say that
Speaker 3: in front of the world and your friends. Yeah, then
Speaker 3: why wouldn't you do it again?
Speaker 1: If you really do believe in this person what you have.
Speaker 2: Totally agree with you. But I've never been married. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but the But that's why I do have the hope.
Speaker 2: Like the first time I say it, it's going to
Speaker 2: be unique. Like a lot of times I've been to
Speaker 2: like third marriage weddings and she's wearing the whole same
Speaker 2: dress and she's pretaring the first dud didn't happen or whatever,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, good, I guess God bless her. She
Speaker 2: could do whatever she wants and whatever works for them
Speaker 2: or whatever she did. She was she open it because
Speaker 2: she was divorced, but she was only married a short time.
Speaker 2: Was she more like we need to get married than she.
Speaker 1: Never said it?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 3: And I love that she never asked me. She never
Speaker 3: thought that I would ask. And I went on a
Speaker 3: mission to surprise her. I had had recon plan on
Speaker 3: what kind of rings she would like, never went into
Speaker 3: a ring store with her. I went a total recon plan.
Speaker 3: People were talking to her and they told me what
Speaker 3: she'd like. She was completely surprised. I was on a
Speaker 3: mission to do that too, and I.
Speaker 2: You were completely confident she was gonna say yes, there.
Speaker 3: I will tell you that there was like a one
Speaker 3: percent chance that I thought she'd be like, oh no,
Speaker 3: we're not ready. There was a little piece of me
Speaker 3: which actually made it even more exciting for me.
Speaker 1: There was a little piece of.
Speaker 2: Not being You don't want her to be like, oh,
Speaker 2: I know why we're going to Paris, right, you don't
Speaker 2: want I I just yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I know why. Oh that's the ring
Speaker 1: I want, like, let's go ring shopping.
Speaker 2: I know that one percent chance is good that I
Speaker 2: was telling her the juice is worth the squeeze.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2: One thing then that you can tell the men out
Speaker 2: there who are going through do this, that they should
Speaker 2: do to you know, get their groove back? Is it?
Speaker 2: Take take the time? Is that the number one?
Speaker 3: The number one thing is if you, if you, if
Speaker 3: you get divorced or you have a really bad breakup,
Speaker 3: learn how to be alone.
Speaker 2: It's hard, it's maddening because you're like, I just want
Speaker 2: this part of my life to be over. It is low.
Speaker 3: It's the worst, right right, And you'll go through nights
Speaker 3: of not sleeping and you'll find all of these things
Speaker 3: that are so difficult, but fight through it because I
Speaker 3: thought I would never There were nights when I was like,
Speaker 3: I'm never getting through this. There were times when I
Speaker 3: was sitting out on my deck by myself in this one,
Speaker 3: better and two bedroom apartment that I had, and I
Speaker 3: was like, this is this.
Speaker 1: I can't believe this is my life. I thought I was, yeah,
Speaker 1: and so.
Speaker 3: I would say, but getting through to the other side
Speaker 3: and battling through all that made me more ready for
Speaker 3: the next chapter of my life.
Speaker 2: All right, I'm gonna let you talk about the back
Speaker 2: nine a second. But this is your first time on
Speaker 2: the podcast, and you did eight for a while. So
Speaker 2: we play something called worst date or first date. So
Speaker 2: you either have to give us the worst date you've
Speaker 2: ever been on or the greatest first date you've ever
Speaker 2: been now, which could have been that date you had
Speaker 2: with your current wife, although I don't count that as
Speaker 2: a date because you didn't know it was a date.
Speaker 2: Your choice. Either the worst date or the greatest first
Speaker 2: date of your life? Your choice.
Speaker 1: All right, I guess I got to go with the
Speaker 1: greatest first date of my life.
Speaker 3: So if you don't count the little encounter in when
Speaker 3: I was first here visiting Rebecca. The best first date
Speaker 3: will be when she got off the boat in Saint
Speaker 3: John and we went out to one of our favorite restaurants,
Speaker 3: the Terrorists now one of our favorite restaurants. I can
Speaker 3: remember the dress she was wearing, I can remember the conversations,
Speaker 3: I can remember what we ate. So yeah, so I
Speaker 3: would say that was and I knew that the spark
Speaker 3: continued from that first trip. Yep, so yeah, I would
Speaker 3: have to say that that's my best first date.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to see that's like something out of a movie.
Speaker 2: My question goes to what did she What did you eat?
Speaker 3: There was the great ah. He seared a he tuna
Speaker 3: dish that they had there.
Speaker 1: It was fantastic.
Speaker 2: That's the fat guy. I mean, I don't care what
Speaker 2: she wore. I'm like, what did you eat? I just
Speaker 2: got a Playboy mansion all the time, and I would
Speaker 2: come home They're like, how was it? I'm like, they
Speaker 2: had like six inch shrimp. It was amazing a buffet.
Speaker 2: All right, tell us about the philosophy behind the back
Speaker 2: nine podcast and where they can find you and all this.
Speaker 2: I talk about how that came about.
Speaker 3: Okay, so my one of my best friends for thirty
Speaker 3: five years. Josh Moore and I have known each other
Speaker 3: for a long time. We're former sportscasters, so we were
Speaker 3: both in media and mostly in Buffalo, New York for
Speaker 3: a long time, covering Buffalo sports and yeah, go bills,
Speaker 3: for sure, go bills. We retired from those businesses and
Speaker 3: moved on, moved on with our lives, and you know,
Speaker 3: like I said during COVID, I was going through some stuff.
Speaker 1: He was going through some stuff. We started talking about.
Speaker 3: Really deep guy stuff on you know, on Zoom or
Speaker 3: on FaceTime or whatever, and we realized.
Speaker 1: This be good as a podcast, Like, let's try it.
Speaker 1: So we did a.
Speaker 3: Couple trial ones on Zoom because I was in California
Speaker 3: and he was in Florida, and we were terrible. We sucked.
Speaker 3: I didn't like it at all. I thought, for two
Speaker 3: people who were in the broadcast business, this is bad.
Speaker 3: So what happened was again serendipity. We had a chance
Speaker 3: to meet Janine who you know, Jeanine Stella, and we
Speaker 3: had an opportunity to go into a studio and try it,
Speaker 3: and we sat across from each other in a studio
Speaker 3: talking about what our journeys. We're just talking about a
Speaker 3: little bit, and we realized that we were onto something
Speaker 3: that we could talk about men after midlife, which is
Speaker 3: the analogy for the back nine, the metaphor, if you will,
Speaker 3: And it's about the back nine of life. It's about
Speaker 3: life after midlife and the trials and tribulation. It's not
Speaker 3: just about divorce. It's about health and wellness. We did
Speaker 3: a financial show this past week that's going to air.
Speaker 3: We do all kinds of things that can help men
Speaker 3: understanding women on the Back nine, all different kinds of things,
Speaker 3: and we have guests every week.
Speaker 1: We've had some great celebrity guests talking about their journey
Speaker 1: in the back nine. So, yeah, that's what it is.
Speaker 2: I was on your show. I'm not one of those celebrities,
Speaker 2: but it was our celebrities. Oh thanks, I'll ask you
Speaker 2: more questions though, I'll come back on your show. Like
Speaker 2: we like, I just felt it was authentic and as well.
Speaker 2: And I am somebody who is not that comfortable talking
Speaker 2: to men, and part of that is because I didn't
Speaker 2: really probably trust the relationship with my father, and so
Speaker 2: part of that, Like, I really enjoyed it. I really
Speaker 2: enjoyed it. It was it's very honest and I appreciate,
Speaker 2: so check out the Back nine podcast. Dennis, you were great.
Speaker 2: This was fun.
Speaker 1: Thank you, It was really fun.
Speaker 2: As far as us like, share, follow, please review this
Speaker 2: podcast and the Back nine podcasting reviews still after five
Speaker 2: hundred so episodes mean a lot in the podcasting ecosystem
Speaker 2: shoots an email Great Love Debate at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: If you've got questions, thoughts, comments, or whatever. Check out
Speaker 2: Dead to Me podcast I got. I got some very
Speaker 2: famous people coming on that soon. But all good because,
Speaker 2: as always at the Great Love Debate, we never stopped
Speaker 2: making love. To see you next time.
Speaker 1: The Great Love Debate. It's the Great Love Debate.
Speaker 2: De Great Love Debate.
Speaker 1: It's a Great Love Debate.