Speaker 1: Hello, Ed, Welcome to the show of Martin Willshire host.
And I was just talking to Bill A Kgra and
kind of laughing because this is my schedule. And back
in New Hampshire for just a couple of days, and
then I go back down to South Carolina. Then I
go out to Contact in the Desert in California. Then
I come back to South Carolina. Then I fly up
to Pine Bush and that conference up there UFO conce
then I fly back down to South Carolina. Then I
fly back up here for the summer. I'm exhausted just
talking about it. But anyway, so there's a lot going on,
and I hope that I have said this before, but
I hope that if you are out at Contact in
the Desert you hear this ahead of time. Of course,
then just send me an email at Martinette PODCASTUFO dot com.
And I'm going to be doing some recording. There's a
media room. I have a lot of people scheduled for
the media room. I'm going to be like Ross Coltheart
and Paul Heinek and lots of people that are going
to be interviewing Ben Hansen, a bunch of people. I'm
going to be interviewing with and if you want to
hang out during an interview, you know, just email me
if you're out there. I'm really excited to go out there.
I've never gone here. It's kind of like a big
almost like a burning Man or something, you know, a
big rock concert or whatever. So my guest tonight is
our longtime blogger here. I got to ask him how
many years it's been, Charles Lear. He comes up with
something every week. Now. He's on his third book. We'll
talk a little bit about that, but we're going to
be talking kind of how he does his research. I
think it's fascinating. He's on his way out to New
Mexico Dave Milers and the archives to go through those
of the Apro archives, which I think I have a
picture of him somewhere digging into all these archives in
his work. I think one of the best things that's
happened to my show here is Charles reaching out to me.
I'm going to ask him how many years ago and
asking if I needed a blogger, which I did have
when I first started. Michael Out did some great blogs
way back, but everything got hacked and gone away, so
all those blogs have gone. But so Charles has been blogging.
I'm going to just bring him in and ask him, Charles, Welcome.
Speaker 2: Hello Martin.
Speaker 1: How many years has it been, Charles? Did you ever?
Speaker 2: Pretty sure it was twenty.
Speaker 1: Nineteen, twenty nineteen, so about six years yep. And a
blog every single week pretty much. Yeah, I think there's
one or two. You're on vacation anyway, Welcome to the show.
Thank you for coming on again. It's always a pleasure
to talk to you.
Speaker 2: Well. Thanks for having me. Always good to be here.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And you know I should kind of mention
like I do in the beginning of every show, is
this week's blog by Charles Lear is a nineteen seventy
five UFO and occupant report from Wisconsin and another John Keel.
I've noticed that you John Keel's in a lot of
your research and a lot of your blogs. He was
an interesting character. Can you tell, like the listening audience
that may have never heard of him, a little bit
about him that you know?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Keil was pretty amazing. He started off writing when
he was just a teenager. I think it was as
early as sixteen years old. He wrote for a local
paper and he had to call him called scraping the keel.
I think he got paid a whopping like dollar a
week or something like that. It was really low. But
he started writting really early, and he left home hitch
hiked his way. He lived in upstate New York, and
he hitch hiked his way down to New York City.
I think he had like fifty cents in his pocket.
He got himself job working with I think newspapers and magazines,
and eventually made his way into making a living as
a journalist and a writer. He wrote for television, he
wrote for a lot of humor magazines, humor books. He
wrote for Playboy magazine, and yeah, so he was primarily
a writer. And then he got into the UFO subject.
And he said to Gray Barker, who he investigated the
Mothman and the Woodrow darren Berger case in Point bleasand
in nineteen sixty six, Gray Barker said to him, you
seem to know a lot about the UFO subject that
you're not telling anybody. How did you How did you
come to know so much? And he said, I read
everything I could find on flying saucers and UFOs, and
let me tell you that was some hard medicine. But
he's what you call an autodidact. He was self taught,
but he even ended up editings. I think he edited
the psychlog I think he was ended up being a
science editor at one point. And yeah, he's had a
he had a really multi faceted career, but primarily as
a writer. And that what's really interesting is he liked
to write about UFOs and I kind of I see
myself that way, as I like to write first and foremost,
and I like to write about UFOs, and he was
very much the same way. And as I've been doing it,
I've come to understand him more, and it seems that
he he thought of himself first and foremost as a
writer and secondarily as a UFO investigator.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, but he did investigate as well, right, I
mean he did a lot of investigative work.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah. He the Mothman prophecies is about, is him
getting deep in the trenches in Point Pleasant, West Virginia
during the Mothman mystery. And also there were a whole
bunch of UFO settings there around the time. So this
is nineteen sixty six through sixty seven, and at the
same time, there's a lot of there was a flap
in Long Island. But what made him really interesting is
he was open to contact e reports and he found
a lot of what he called the silent contact these
which were people. What made them rare is they didn't
seek publicity. He had to find them and get their
private stories out of them for the most part. And
one of his research methods was to not publicize all
of his findings, to keep some stuff under his keep
some stuff in his sleeve. Looking just keep some stuff
from the public, keep it to himself, so that if
he saw commonalities and the reports, he knew that these
people didn't get it from something he had written or
somebody else had written. So that's another thing he did
was he looked for patterns and he lot up my
favorite book of his operation Trojan Horse, and he goes
into some really deep thinking about the mystery. And one
of his big ideas was he didn't coin the phrase,
but it's the idea of ultra terrestrials, which are sort
of inter dimensions. It's part of the interdimensional hypothesis.
Speaker 1: So yeah, well, I just want to say hi to
everyone and chat. Thank you all for being here. Hey, Bobby,
how you doing, Duckhead Bluie Wyatt, Chris Alexander, all these
people and men. I always say this wrong, but I'm
telling you we have someone in here that comes up
with some really good questions. She's been listening for a
long time, decided to get active, and she has really
great questions. So we can expect that I'm putting a
little pressure on her men Denopolis, so we'll have some
probably some good questions from her today. But I want
to thank you all for being here live and joining
in the chat, and you're welcome to post questions. I'll
put them up if they work at the time, and
please use caps when you do that. So so, Charles,
I know I asked you this before, but I'm going
to ask you again because I can't remember. And that
is what first got you into the topic of UFOs.
What sparked your interest.
Speaker 2: I've been interested as long as I can remember. I
think it's coming of age in the seventies. The seventies
was a great time for UFOs and Bigfoot and all
sorts of paranormal subjects because a lot of movies are
coming out and you actually had to go to the
theater to see these movies. So you know, I saw
that's right, Bigfoot doc, you know, the Bigfoot movie in
the theater, and oh other sorts, but the yeah you
also had in search of with Leonard Nimoy.
Speaker 1: That's oh yeah, that was great. Yeah.
Speaker 2: A lot of people my age bring all those things up.
But I remember, you know, back in the days when
you had to wait for television shows to be broadcast.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no such thing as binge watching. They wouldn't
know what you're talking about.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah. You open up the TV guide and you see,
oh my god, here's a UFO special circle that and
really look forward to it. And everyone that came on
it was like a real special event.
Speaker 1: You know. I wasn't really paying attention myself, but I remember,
I believe it was in high school or just out
of high school. I can't remember the year it came out,
but was that Betty and Barney Hill special whatever it
was on TV? I happened to catch that. And Darth Vader, yeah,
that's who was in it, right. I can't think of
his name right now, but goodness, I'm sure that in
the in.
Speaker 2: The somebody's screaming it right now.
Speaker 1: I'm sure someone will pop it in there. L Jones
names and Angel Jones yep. And I watched that and
it was like I was kind of like horrified, you know,
like the possibility of it when they said it was
based on a true story, you know. And here I'm
right in the town where Maggie and Barney lived, Portsmouth,
New Hampshire, And you know, my cousin's husband knew knew Barney,
and he used to hang out for hours when he
was supposed to be delivering that mail.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Story, but he said he rarely talked about really talked
about the UFO and so, but he did, he did
talk about it a few times. But yeah, so yeah,
and you know that's there's a little controversy in that,
you know, a lot of people don't like to talk
about it. But Simon's the psychiatrist, thinks that he doesn't
really think it happened to him. He thinks they think
it happened to him. But I'm not saying that means
one hundred percent that it didn't happen, you know. But
I did, you know, kind of brought that up with
Kathy Martin, the niece, his niece, I mean, Betty's niece,
and and you know, so I don't know, you know, well.
Speaker 2: When I looked into the case, you can get the
original investigator's report. I think Walter Web he actually wrote
a report for Nicap, which is unusual because Nightcap hated
anything even close to a contact report, and they really
begrudgingly covered it in the UFO Investigator of their publication.
But if you really, if you want to get a
really good look at the Betty and Barney Hill case,
you should go to water Web's report. You can find it.
I think it's now hosted on the QFOS website because
they took over the Nightcap files and I think Mark
Rodiger just revamped the q PHOS site. Oh yeah, so
you can find water Web's original report and it's it's
you know you, it's them talking to him. This is
before they even got into hypnosis, and they tell us
the story for the most part, as they told it
to Simon. Most of the abduction stuff actually comes from
Betty Hill's dreams that she actually wrote down the dreams,
so before they even got into hypnosis. But Barney actually
describes the creatures before he and and all the he
describes a lot of stuff out of conscious memory, recall.
But yeah, doctor Benjamin Simon didn't believe.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like it's right. I think it's right in the
first paragraph of what he wrote in the forward or something.
I forget exactly, but it's it's in the book. I
had someone that had the book and showed it to me,
So don't know who you met. She showed she has
the book and showed it to me right where he
says it. But interesting, it's still, you know, considered a
landmark case, you know, and uh, you know, there's a
lot of people here in town that I've talked to
over the years that knew Betty. She was a real character.
Anne Barney, but especially Betty because Betty lived for quite
a while and she had a lot of friends.
Speaker 2: It's really cool to be in a place where a
classic case happened and actually talk to the people. When
I live in magdalenea New Mexico, I knew a lot
of people who knew Lonnie Zamora from the Sikoro incident,
and so I got to hear people talk about Lonnie's
Amora and here's some really fun stories about him, like
one I think radio interview. It's the interviewer asked him,
you know, so when you saw the UFO mister Zamora,
what state were you in? Well, I was in the
state of New Mexico.
Speaker 1: Sir, state of shock, and yeah, yeah, you stories with people.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: He was very, very very credible. That's what everybody says
about him. And that was one of the you know,
the probably the turning point for people like Jay Allen Heinich,
like he really thought, Wow, this is something I can't
just you know, call swamp gas and kind of change
his whole thought. So I also want to give a
shout out because he listens to every show. I'm going
to be at an event tomorrow and this guy's coming
to meet me in the name Eric Eric, So I'll
see you tomorrow. Eric. But anyway, let's see, this is
kind of an interesting point someone puts here in the chat.
Anyone that listened to the Matthew Brown interviews, are you
familiar with that? This is like the whistleblower Matthew Brown
that's come out recently, kind of talking about the Immaculate Constellation.
I don't know if you've heard any of this out.
He was on Weaponize with Georgia Knapp and Jeremy Corbel,
and I'm not going to cast judgment on anything or anyone.
I'm just saying it was very interesting. I watched a
lot of it and I think it was very and
sounds it sounds like there's a lot of people, you know,
and someone sent me this thing. I haven't looked at
it today, but they said someone's coming forward from NASA saying,
you know, retired from NASA saying yes, these UFOs are
blah blah blah. You know. Like again, I haven't read anything.
I don't know if it's credible. I just have these
links sent to me all day long, which is by
people like this. I want to give a shout out
to Palmer because he's always sending me links in that
involved in the UFO topic. I'm very grateful for that.
But yeah, there's a lot. It seems like there's a
lot going on. There was going to be a hearing
tonight today. I mean, I'm sorry, not tonight today in Washington,
d C. Or was it yesterday? I can't remember.
Speaker 2: Maybe they canceled.
Speaker 1: It didn't it wasn't scheduled properly. That's what I've heard,
because I talked to someone in DC. I couldn't make
it ahead work up here on the cape, so I
couldn't make it, and I was really disappointed that I
couldn't make it because I would like to go to
all of them. And so I found out that it
wasn't scheduled properly, therefore it didn't happen.
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, I mean, you know, as far as all
this stuff goes, I'm right as a historian from the
point of view of an historian and a journalist, so
I like to I'll let the dust settle and then
go back and pick through the ashes and get there.
Speaker 1: You know. Uh.
Speaker 2: That's because there's so much, so much rancor and arguing
back and forth. And I'm comfortable in my position and
my approach to it because I can stay at out
of the rankor and the arguing. And right now there's
a great divide in UFO world that is kind of drag.
Speaker 1: It's in every segment of our society.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, the whole versus non you know. Yeah,
I I prefer to just sit back and you know,
I let people as far as I'm concerned, you know,
let people enjoy the subject how they enjoy it, that's
all good. Yeah, And you know, I've got my niche
and that's where I like to stay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I feel like there's no way anyone's going
to change anyone's mind. A lot of times people's minds
already made up, And why get into like this big
match about I stay pretty neutral myself.
Speaker 2: No, you do great. That's one of the reasons I
was attracted to your show.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you, but I can tell you that I do.
I still haven't open enough mind, like I'll go to
those hearings because not only is it really historic that
these are happening, yeah, but in the halls and running
into all these people, and I got there's a lot
of listeners to the show too that I run into.
But still, just the conversations in the line when you
waiting and stuff like that, that's worth going even if
you didn't get in the room, you know. I mean,
it's really a blast. And again, it feels sort of
historic that these things are happening. But you're right, I
said when I very first heard David Grush talk about
back in June of twenty twenty three, with Ross Coldheart
interviewing him, when I first heard him talk about the
crash retrievals, and I'm looking at him, say, he looks
really sincere and blah blah blah, and I said kind
of the same thing. Let's see what time does to this.
Let's see, you know, because at a wall, the truth
eventually always seems to come out. However, in this particular topic,
I don't know what to think about that because it
seems a little quirky whether the truth's going to come
out eventually or not, you know. And then we have
you know, Jake Barber is another one. A lot of
people ask me what I think about him and all that,
and I feel the same way. Just let time go.
You know, there's these people that are they're calling these
UFO experts, they call them, and you know, they're there.
And and another thing we talked a little bit off air,
like there's so many people in the UFO topic. I've
been doing this since twenty eleven the show. But there's
these people with big YouTube channels that have hundreds of
thousands of subscribers that oh the YouTube topic, and they're
doing a really good job and they're you know, they're
they're really getting a big audience. And it's the timing
seems good for them because there's so many more people
looking into the topic than back you know, even six
years ago, five years ago, so many more people looking
into it. So there's an audience now and it's but
that's not really what I started this show for, like
an audience or popular or anything like that. I just
did it out of careuriosity.
Speaker 2: M hm.
Speaker 1: And I still still do it. I still, you know,
jokingly say I know less than I did when I started.
Speaker 2: So you're saying you're not a grifter Martin, not purposely. No,
I'm with you. You know, I do what I do
because I love to do it. I'm certainly not making
any money at it. Yeah, well you know, I'm making
a little money, but but in any case, I'm not,
I'd still have a day job. Let's put it that way. Yeah,
you know. Yeah, And you know there's that's most of
us out here, you know, who've been doing this for
years and years and years, and most people just do
it because they love.
Speaker 1: It so well this thank you for that, Jagger Legs,
thanks for you do. That's nice to you. Let's see,
I don't know, it says, So what amount of the
divide in the UFL community do you attribute to bad actors?
You know, maybe the I don't know if you want
to say grifters, if it's too strong of a word.
There are some people that someone may may call that.
I mean, I I have this story. I can't I can't.
I shouldn't tease it, but I have to tease it
a little bit because it's a fantastical story that someone
kind of got caught with a drone in the back
of a pickup truck. A college kid was going to
supposed to fly it at a certain time for an
event where people were paying to bring in UFOs. You know,
so you can only imagine. You can fill in that,
you can fill in the blanks, but you can imagine.
Speaker 3: Maybe you can figure out there's the guy have a
doctor no comment anyway, Yeah, well that's interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but anyway, if that's I don't I can't confirm it. No,
I have the person that saw the guy and talked
to him or whatever he said. I don't have any
of his information. He's a college kid. I met him
at a seven eleven and it was right where this
thing was happening, and blah blah blah. That's as far
as it goes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think you know, to the question that
bad actors, I mean, yeah, I'm sure some people question
whether it's actually part of a government conspiracy. You know,
Oh yeah, it just really seems to me that I
think it's an old battle, the battle to control the narrative.
I actually wrote about that in Crash Saucers and Malevel
and Aliens, where Bill Moore was basically trying struggling against
John Lear and the UFO Dark Sidle all of his people,
and it came to a head at the nineteen eighty
nine move On Symposium in Las Vegas, and he made
that speech and everybody looks at that speech like it's
him coming clean, And if you really look at that speech,
it's him trying to regain control of the narrative by saying,
you know, all this stuff Bill Lear speeding. It was
disinformation I gave him and helped give him with Richard Doty.
And meanwhile everybody said, wait a minute.
Speaker 1: You know who was sitting right there in the audience
is my friend Chris Lambright. He was, oh, yeah, yeah,
the whole thing. So the whole thing happened.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Actually I had a little he wrote X, descending
that's right. Yeah, yeah, so I had a little email
because I wrote about Witz and Chris actually wrote extensive well,
that's X descending and he really he actually has some
of the picks sures that Benwitz took over the Manzana
weapons storage area, and he compared them to stuff that
are our old friend Ray Stanford his his footage and yeah,
so that was really interesting. But yeah, so like it's
it's an old struggle, you know, trying to regain the
control of the narrative, and you know it nuts and bolts,
craft with little gray aliens with big black eyes, mutilating
cows and honoring everybody's DNA et cetera, et cetera, et cetera,
or is it something even stranger? And anybody who claims
you've I've heard you say that anybody who claims to
have the ass he should turn around and run right,
But so are you?
Speaker 1: Are you familiar with a guy named Kurt Jamungle. He
does the theory of everything. I don't know if you
listen to anybody does he does some UFO so, but
he's a physicist and the good guy. I had him
on my show one time, but he had someone on.
I'm just bring this up. It was so fascinating. It
was a professor, Professor Robin Hanson, and I just want
to say, he's my guest next week. I heard the
podcast and I go, oh my god, this is so fascinating.
So we're in for a really good show, a really
good show next week with Robin Hanson. And basically he
has a theory of he's a stattician, brilliant, brilliant man,
and he he has a theory. I'm not going to
get into it too much, but it's really fascinating about
how we may be being observed, you know. So it's
but it's fascinating. So historically this is something. Let's I
since you kind of focus on the history of these things,
do you think that what do you think about the
cover up? I mean, do you think it is do
you think it's a part? My theory And you've probably
heard me say this before, is I think that the
government doesn't know everything, and because they don't know everything,
they feel like a little bit of information out there
would be dangerous. They can't say what's in the skies,
they can't protect us, they can't say whether it's benevolent
or manevolent or any of that. So I just want
to know what your your thoughts are because a lot
of people do just assume the government is covering up.
Speaker 2: I pretty much go along with what you just said
that they don't know much more than us, and like
you said, it's uncomfortable for the government to say, you know,
we don't know what's in our skies and we can't
protect you from it. I mean, the whole thing with
the drone situation that just happened. Yeah, that must have
been a pr nightmare for.
Speaker 1: Them, you know, and it's still ongoing. This is why
I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah, I think friends.
Speaker 2: And coworkers are still coming up to me and saying,
you know, I'm still seeing stuff. I had a friend
who's and uh upper round, who has family and friends
up around Pine Bush, and he said a buddy of
his called him and said, I'm looking at a drone
over my house, hovering silently, and he called it a
drone the size of a Volkswagen. Yeah, it's like, okay.
Speaker 1: And here's the thing. You know, that someone fed the
president information that the FAA said that they had, you know,
permits for doing this, so they were doing it and
then but there's so much blowback from that. I think
that was just it's kind of like when you know,
when they closed Project Bluebook. They said, nothing to see here.
It's kind of like just trying to keep you know,
people from reporting on it, obviously, because supposedly it has
to slow down all that much, and it's still happening
in these incur incursions on these bases, you know, I
mean they don't they don't have the equipment, the right
equipment to handle it. Now I'm not saying that alien.
They could be, you know, adversaries getting spying and getting information.
Whatever it is, it hasn't stopped.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it's interesting being here, you know, firsthand, in
the midst of it and seeing what constitutes a flap,
and it's interesting. What I find interesting is it's all
kinds of different causal factors, you know, from people actually
seeing stuff they don't know what it is. Misidentification, is
some stuff actually mysterious, Possibly, is some stuff actually drones? Possibly?
I mean, you know, there was a reporter's on air
talking about drones and pointing them out, and they were
actually planes in queue line at Newark Airport. And so
there's a reporter on air misidentifying airplanes. So it was
so many different causal factors in the midst of this flap.
Really interesting thing I heard from a guest on another
podcast was the fact that since everybody is reporting drones,
it's easier to report a drone than it is to
report a UFO or a flying saucer. You know, you
say I'm seeing a mysterious drone that gets everybody's attention,
they'll take you seriously as opposed to saying, oh, I'm
reporting a UFO. So that's what made this thing really different.
Speaker 1: From you know, you a V right, it's an unidentified
aerial vehicle or something. Maybe I have that wrong U
a V VICTA. Yeah, yeah, so, but I don't you know,
I I don't know. I know that. You know, the
the witness, the first hand witness that I had on
the show I did with I think it was Nick
Pope and markdy Antonio when I did a show on
Drones Only, and I had this witness come on from
New Jersey. She was seeing them long before people were
reporting them. And you know, some of them were the
size of just what you said, a Volkswagen Beetle type
of thing, and some of them made noise, some of
them didn't make noise. It's very very weird. You know,
it seems like a mixture of weirdness and some explainable,
some not. Here's a good point from Terrence. Do you
ever wonder why more people aren't curious about this ultimate
life changing topic? Yes? I do.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what I like coming on these podcasts
because I can actually talk to somebody intelligently about the subject.
Because nobody else wants to talk at length about this. Yeah,
my coworkers, even though you know, I have one who
you know, the guy whose family was up in pine
Bush Hello, Ilia Ilia. His his wife and her father
and mother and I think a sibling all reported seeing
a UFO while they were driving, following it and then
losing sight of it, and then when they got back
to their house seeing the same UFO hovering over their house.
Giant big one classic saucer.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, Eliot told me this story. But
if I want to talk to him, you know, at
length at all about UFO, he just kind of drifts off.
And you know, there's not many people that I can
talk to it like about the subject. And there are
people that just outright will shut you down, just don't
want to hear it. You know. It's oh, yeah, you know, you're.
Speaker 1: My sister you know, she's you know, my sister's husband
worked at Los Almos Labs's brilliant guy, right, And and
I said to him when I first told him my
sister and him, I do a show in UFO. What
you think about that? And so his name is Wilburt,
you could do the Wilbert but anyway, he goes, yeah,
I could see that here he is a scientist, saying yeah,
I could see. You know, it's possible we're being visited
from My sister could care less. I sat her down
and showed her the what I could of the aerial
phenomenon is, look at these school children and they're being
interviewed by this famous psychiatrial psychiatrist from Harvard and very
you know, I mean, this is just amazing. Don't you
think this is a meaning? What's for dinner? That's that's
what I got to, what's for dinner? And you know
what do we She could you know, she's a sweet woman,
but she could care less and she doesn't remember when
my sister, my older sister, and her and I sat
and we were watching over at P's Air Force Base,
which is pretty well known for a lot of things,
and we saw something going up and down, and you know,
doesn't remember any of that, you know, so it doesn't
doesn't care. But a lot of people, you know, are
just concentrated on, you know, making money or paying the
bills or whatever, and they're not even thinking about any
of this stuff. We're a very it's a very small
niche what you might call it subculture. Yeah, yeah, that's right.
But I think it's fascinating and I you know, when
I had my sighting in two thousand and seven, it
made me think, well, there's now I know for sure
there's really something to this.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It was always like maybe there is maybe there you know,
this was interesting that or whatever.
Speaker 2: Would you consider yourself a knower, like, you know there's
something I know.
Speaker 1: I would say, I know there is something to it,
but I don't know what it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I I'm I haven't had any
sort of setting up my own, but I have had
paranormal experiences. I've actually having a little ghost activity up
at the over at the met I've talked about all right.
Speaker 1: Well you know you're not going to get away without
talking about that.
Speaker 2: Well, the first thing that was happening is I would
take naps on you know, with my feet up on
my work bench during lunch, and in order to drown
out the noise of my coworkers and be able to
drift off, I listen to Motorhead. It's kind of like
white noise. So naturally, often lunch will be over and
I'll still be asleep, and my coworkers need to wake
me up, and they would kindly. I told them the
best way to do it as a tap on my bench.
But one occasion I felt somebody grab my toes jiggle
my feet. I opened my eyes and say thank you
very much, and there's nobody there. And this has happened
on more than on ecasion. And it's freaky because I
have never had that feeling at any other time. It's
not like a twitch I've had before or anything. I
literally it feels like somebody grabbing my toes and jiggling
my feet. And then in another episode, I have a
pair of needle nose players. I weld over at the
in the Metropolitan Opera Steel Shop, and I have these
needlenose players that are perfect for a welder. They you know,
they have all the little things you need to change
your nozzle and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Clip
your wire, and I put them down in plain sight.
I turned around to get something. I turn around, They're gone.
And it bugged me because I really liked them, and
I spent all day looking for them, turning everything over
on my bench. They're not there. At the end of
the day, in an absolutely clear, ba bare spot, I
come up on my bench, I see them just sitting
there in the middle of the bench in an open,
clear spot. And I was startled enough that I asked
all my coworkers if they were messing me, and everybody said, no, Wow, don't.
Speaker 1: Anyone else talk about anything happening there.
Speaker 2: I yeah. I had another coworker tell me he was
on the stage when there was just what's called the
ghost like you know, they have a single light on
the stage when nobody's doing anything on there. He said
he was walking across the stage he saw somebody walking
by wearing a striped shirt, and as he followed him along,
he saw it completely vanished, like you know, just fade
out and gone.
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, yeah, I mean I actually, during a Halloween time,
I did a special show like everything else show on
ghost stories that I know. I mean, there's in one
situation that happened to me. But I don't think I'm
going to go into it again tonight. But anyway, I
think there is something to it in which made me.
I mean, something happened and it's explainable somehow, whether it's interdimensional,
I mean, I have to say that is a possibility
in my mind when some of these things happen. And well,
you know, just.
Speaker 2: Like you said, I've been writing, let's say, since twenty nineteen,
a blog every single week, so that's essentially a case
every week pretty much that I've been looking at, yeah,
fifty two weeks a year, six years, so that's three
hundred cases saying that I've looked at, yeah, and in depth,
and you see patterns that come up again and again
and again, and a lot of stuff that you know, I,
as a guy who's into this, didn't know before I
started researching deeply. I didn't know about clean conjunctivitis, for instance.
I didn't know the whole car thing was prevalent. You know,
cars shutting down absolutely prevalent throughout the literature, not just
level in Texas sunburn, people having getting messages, you know,
like somebody's talking to them inside their head, and you know,
pattern after pattern, just repeated claims in people's reports. They
come up again and again and again and again. And
if you know, if I didn't know them, the likelihood
that the witness reporting it knew that other people reported
this is very low in my mind. So that adds
a lot of credibility to the reports.
Speaker 1: M M. Yeah. This is an interesting question that a
lot of people do ask, and one about do you
think that you thank you, Terrence. Do you think that
UFOs and paranormal activity are related? I know, Paul Eno,
I don't know if you know who Paul Absolute, Yeah, yeah, yeah, great, Ben,
Paul and Ben. It was inter dimensional and it was all,
you know, related, which is pretty fascinating, you know, to
think of. I don't know. I think that's another really
good question. And I've heard a lot of people say, well,
UFO shouldn't be part of paranormal because people are actually
seeing these things and we have on radar and trace
evidences and so it shouldn't be part of paranormal. It's
but I don't know, you know what I mean, we
don't have any bigfoot evidence to speak of that I
know of. I don't know, you know, if you want
to group it in and the ghosts thing, these are all.
Speaker 2: If you do go over to our buddy Stan Gordon,
were theremania. I mean, he's the Bigfoot and UFOs and
needs together and more activity as well. I personally think
they're related, but I don't rule out the idea that
there might also be extra visitors from other planets, galaxies
or universes. I don't rule that out, but I you know,
it could be both. You know, it could be something
emulating UFOs. You know, the possibilities are endless.
Speaker 1: Yeah, here's here's something. Someone a statement. Uh, there's no
doubt that some consciousness connection. There is some consciousness connection.
A lot of people talk about that. You know, I'm
a big john understanding don't really I'm sorry, No, I'm
just saying I never really understand exactly how that works.
I've had people try to explain it to me, the
consciousness connection and UFO. I don't understand it. I don't
understand the connection.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, if you go with the idea that
consciousness doesn't isn't necessarily something that exists in the brain,
and the idea of a universal consciousness, and then you know,
you can really get into a lot of Eastern mysticism.
It's trying to explain this, but you know, the idea
that our individual consciousnesses are just expressions of one larger
uber consciousness is one concept. And then there's also the
idea that part of that uber consciousness is something that
likes to mess with us, maybe just to give us
little lessons in life. I've heard people speculate that way,
So yeah, you know, that's an idea I absolutely entertain.
Speaker 1: Here's a here's a question here how how does it
exists outside of the brain. I just heard this theory
on I can't remember who who said it exactly, but
he was saying, picture that you're flying a drone and
you're seeing everything that the drone is seeing, and then
the drone crashes or something, but you are the consciousness
and the drone was the physical. You know. That's how
he was trying to say, how there is a master
consciousness and you're you're like the drone out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah that's that's pretty good, you know, but yeah, yeah,
that's well, I'd like that. That's a really good metaphor.
But the you know, there's there's a concept that the
entire universe is consciousness. And that we are expressions. Every
little thing in it is an expression of that consciousness.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So I have to ask you, of all
these cases that you've written about, is there one that
you've written about that you thought, wow, this is just
when you started looking into it and digging deep, that
you just said, wow, this is like really really bizarre.
I mean, can you think of, you know, some instances
of cases that are you just just think really stand out.
Speaker 2: My absolute favorite is Zamfretta. This is the one Italian.
He was an Italian security guard and he was driving
one night and he was checking out a disturbance and
he saw this big horseshoe shaped Oh no, that was
after he saw a craft and a creature. And the
creature was just this bizarre creature. I think it had
yellow eyes. It was I think nine feet tall. It
was kind of lizard like an appearance, what looked like
gills and spikes sticking out of its neck. I think
he described it having a grill for mouth and the
I think he confronted it with his gun and he
got knocked out and the creature took off and there
was a trace evidence left behind in terms of a
landing mark. An Italian journalist wrote about it and wrote
a whole book about it. I think it's called the
Zamfretta Experience possibly. But what's really interesting is he would
go out on patrol in his car. I think it
was a little Fiat and there's a really mountainous region
of Italy. I for it's been a while since I
wrote about it. I forget the actual region right now,
but very mountainous red and on one occasion they lost
contact with him. I think he was reporting that the
car was taking off on its own uphill and that
he wasn't controlling it. And then when they finally but
they sent out a search party to find him and
found the car on the side of the road and
him not in it, and found him on the over
on a ledge on the other side of a cliff,
and they got him up and he was really hot.
The inside of the car was really hot.
Speaker 1: And then he.
Speaker 2: Started telling stories of being taken aboard a craft. The
creature actually talked to him, other creatures like him, and
you know, so this whole contact ye kind of case
came out of it. I think this was in nineteen
seventy eight too.
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you when there was Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: And so the journalist who was investigating the case and
ended up writing the book, did something really interesting. He
rigged the car. He put a thermometer in there that
would record the highest temperature in the car, and he
wired up. He put tables on the wheels tied to
the frame that would snap. I think they're connected from
the axle to the frame, so if the car was
lifted up, the axle would drop, the cables would snap,
and he'd have evidence that it was actually lifted up.
And sure enough, there was an episode he went missing.
They went looking for them him the same thing with
the car being hot and the temperature, the the thermometer
registered a really high temperature and the cables were actually snapped.
So this case made all the papers in Italy, made
international news. It's called the Zamfreta case.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's fascinating.
Speaker 2: It's amazing case and it's crazy. But you know, then
you have the guy investigating it who was not a UFO,
he was an actual journalist, and yeah, and it's actually
got evidence.
Speaker 1: You know, do you happen to remember what kind of
car was?
Speaker 2: I think it was a Fiat that's.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, there was that case you wrote about that
I thought was really fascinating where the woman I thought
she was abducted, she showed up like many many miles away.
You did a couple of blogs on it. Do you
remember that one?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I think I was a but he a
Blanca case Argentina.
Speaker 1: Yeah, irma, Now that wasn't that long ago. Every once
in a while, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what's really need about.
Speaker 1: It, contemporary of what's what's happening.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it was a great case. I mean, she
she reported a big ball of light and then flash.
She was hundreds of kilometers away from where she was
and she opens her eyes sitting on the side of
the road with her I think her cellphone was in
her pocket, and just absolutely mystified as to how she
got there. There was an investigation for as a missing person,
I mean as a possible abduction, so there's an actual
official investigation, and yeah, it looked like a really good case. Yeah,
I'm pretty sure her first name is Ema. I wish
I could remember her last name, but the follow up
to it was her. She was a real simple like
a farmer's wife, and I think the spotlight kind of
got to her and she also got to I think
she became really concerned that she'd been impregnated, and so
she's being interviewed on television, on live TV and on
my TV. She actually hit the reporter up for some
money so she could get a a pregnancy test. So yeah,
that kind of it put a spin on that tail.
But the original report, it seems really credible and really interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there was another I'm sorry, good, no, go
ahead and finish.
Speaker 2: Oh. I said. There was another contemporary case from I
think twenty eighteen that I really loved was a woman
in Florida claimed she saw a creature that had a
like bugged out eyes. I think she said it was
another really tall one. I think it was like a
nine foot tall creature with a huge jaw she compared
to our jaws. If he compared our jaw to a chihuahuas,
it would be like comparing its jaw to our jaw.
And she said she saw a walk across her yard
and then climb up an invisible ladder into an invisible
craft and pull itself up in that its body disappeared
up into the craft as it went up into it.
So that was a really interesting report and that was
very very you know, twenty eighteen. So occasionally I get
lucky and find something contemporary.
Speaker 1: Now, did you I can't remember, did you remember Ronnie Verney?
And I'm trying to think of where they saw those
They were thinking that people were in jet packs and
then they thought they were aliens. Did you write on
that one? I can't remember.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I wrote, I wrote a pretty deep, extensive
blog on that.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm just wondering, had we only got a couple
of minutes here, but had that ever panned out to
any more information? Do you know, have you had you
followed that recently? You know, I know that was like
a year or two ago. I can't remember.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, now, they they pretty much got dropped once
the officials said it was drug cartels in jet packs.
Everybody just left it alone.
Speaker 1: But they're like jet packs, like two hundred and fifty
thousand dollars. They were the only lasted for twelve minutes
or something exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there were a lot of problems with that story.
And what's in interesting is there's a history in that
region of the indigenous peoples having stories like that of
uh so I wrote about that. Somebody actually wrote a
paper on that, and it goes way back and it
ties into people the government and multinational corporations moving in
and taking their land and terrorizing them. And and there's
they have their own mythos that has grown up around
that of creatures and transparent craft coming down to get them,
as well as kind of creatures and jetpack kind of stories.
But you know, there's definitely more to the story, and
it's definitely it really doesn't look like it was drug
cartels and no, it was illegal gold miners that yeah,
illegal gold.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yes. So let's say we've got less than a
minute here. So the name of your book that just
came out.
Speaker 2: Oh, well, it's the second edition of an second edition
of The Flying Saucer Investigators. Yeah. I had to republish
it because my former publisher is having health problems and
it's shutting down is publishing operation. So I in order
to keep it out there, I had to put it
out myself. So but I tightened it up, made a
nice six by nine format, really clean it up, tighten
it up, and it's something I'm very pleased with. And
unfortunately I am competing against myself. So the old edition
tight of Flying Saucer investigators. The old edition shows up.
You can tell the new edition because it's got a
nice picture of two flying black and white flying saucers.
It's actually a hoax picture taken from England, but it
looks great.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And if you go to Amazon dot com and type
in Charles Lear in the search, that book and my
other books should show up, all right.
Speaker 1: And I'll I'll link it down below. But thank you
so much. I can't believe how fast the hour went.
It was a lot of fun. Always fun chatting. And
thank you so much for all the work you do
in your blogs every week. And I know everyone appreciates that.
I hear that all the time from people, So thank you, thank.
Speaker 2: You, Thank you. Mar Its fun to talk.
Speaker 1: Cheers all right, yes, all right everyone, So don't forget.
Next week we have Professor Robin Hanson and it's going
to be a great show. And then I do believe
I'm doing a show the same night, two shows, one
with Ron Jannix and Dean Eliotto. So we'll see you
next week. Remember to keep your eyes to the sky.