1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:01,960 Speaker 1: And for Lewis, the key is myth. 2 00:00:02,319 --> 00:00:06,639 Speaker 2: In myth mythic stories, not modern novels that are full 3 00:00:06,679 --> 00:00:08,800 of idiosyncrasies, but mythic stories. 4 00:00:09,919 --> 00:00:10,839 Speaker 1: What we have. 5 00:00:10,839 --> 00:00:17,839 Speaker 2: Is an imaginative experience of universal truths. So myth itself 6 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:24,679 will bring together our participatory, embodied, ritual, imaginative mode. 7 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: Of reality with all of these truths. 8 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,679 Speaker 2: That reason has discovered, but give us an experience of 9 00:00:30,719 --> 00:00:33,240 them in a way that brings the parts of our 10 00:00:33,799 --> 00:00:35,039 our soul back together. 11 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:37,119 Speaker 3: What you're saying is really important, and this is the 12 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,119 question someways in symbolic world we've been talking about exactly 13 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:43,520 what you're saying is that this is inevitable, like this 14 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,520 is in some ways modernity is yielding. 15 00:00:46,119 --> 00:00:47,119 Speaker 4: To something like that. 16 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,759 Speaker 3: The question is is it simply going to happen to 17 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,960 us or will we have some form of participation in 18 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,280 the way it does. Because sometimes these myths, you know, 19 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:00,960 they break in, and then they break in in ways 20 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,319 that is that can also be extremely destructive. You know, 21 00:01:04,359 --> 00:01:10,159 we've talked about the during COVID, the George Floyd like 22 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,799 situation where all of a sudden, this story like just 23 00:01:13,879 --> 00:01:18,319 falls into culture and like captures everybody and mobilizes everybody 24 00:01:18,359 --> 00:01:20,840 in the world, like not just in America for some reason, 25 00:01:21,079 --> 00:01:23,640 like all over Europe. People are out in the streets, 26 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,799 you know, and and this character gets lifted up, you know, 27 00:01:26,879 --> 00:01:30,040 like a like an almost divine figure. But there are 28 00:01:30,079 --> 00:01:32,879 other types, there are other versions of that happening all 29 00:01:32,879 --> 00:01:35,879 the time, where these stories kind of break in and 30 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:39,120 you know, it's interesting to think about Till We Have 31 00:01:39,239 --> 00:01:42,200 Faces almost as a story about that. 32 00:01:53,959 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 4: This is Jonathan Pegel. Welcome to the Symbolic World. 33 00:02:07,799 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 2: Hello everyone, This is Annie Crawford inviting you to join 34 00:02:11,199 --> 00:02:14,919 me this January for a Symbolic World reading of Till 35 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:15,879 We Have Faces. 36 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: The book C. S. 37 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,599 Speaker 2: Lewis calls far and away the best I've written. Till 38 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:24,000 We Have Faces is Lewis's modern retelling of the myth 39 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:28,560 of Cupid and Psyche, a mysterious tale of dark idolatry, 40 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:33,800 classical enlightenment, and the shocking discovery of true religious vision. 41 00:02:34,319 --> 00:02:38,199 In our four week online course, together, we'll explore what C. S. 42 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,199 Lewis has to show us about the nature of myth, 43 00:02:41,479 --> 00:02:44,840 the dangers of love, the limits of reason, and the 44 00:02:44,879 --> 00:02:48,800 secrets of genuine re enchantment. This is a book an 45 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,080 author and a class you won't want to miss. 46 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 3: Hello everyone, I am here with Annie Crawford. Those of 47 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,759 you that follow the Simbolch world have seen her around. 48 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,639 She is she's becoming our C. S. Lewis expert, our 49 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:07,840 CS Lewis teacher. She had gave a class on C. S. 50 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:12,439 Lewis's Space trilogy, the Cosmic Trilogy, and now we have 51 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,000 a new class until we have Faces, which is kind 52 00:03:15,039 --> 00:03:17,039 of in the air because you know, this kind of 53 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,919 return of the God's moment where people are being aware 54 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:24,240 of principalities and this neopaganism that's emerging. It feels like 55 00:03:24,719 --> 00:03:27,319 it's definitely the book to talk about. And so I'm 56 00:03:27,319 --> 00:03:29,280 happy to have you on with us. 57 00:03:29,879 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure to talk 58 00:03:31,719 --> 00:03:31,960 with you. 59 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 3: And so we're a little late on this. The class 60 00:03:34,879 --> 00:03:37,840 has already started. I think we already have two already, 61 00:03:37,879 --> 00:03:41,400 there's already been two classes, and so I apologize everyone watching. 62 00:03:41,759 --> 00:03:44,120 You can catch up. You can still sign up. I've 63 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,680 heard amazing things about it. People are definitely excited to 64 00:03:47,719 --> 00:03:50,759 talk about this important book. And so maybe tell us 65 00:03:50,759 --> 00:03:52,240 a little bit. Why you because you're the one who 66 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,080 proposed this, So why do you think that it's important 67 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,199 to talk about this book at this moment? 68 00:03:58,199 --> 00:04:01,879 Speaker 2: Yes, while I propose it because I think it is 69 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:08,080 Lewis's best book. And as his friend Owen Barfield said, 70 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:12,560 you know, everything Lewis thought about everything was gathered together 71 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:14,599 in what he said about anything. 72 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 1: So Lewis is a very. 73 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 2: Systematic thinker who would pull together all the threads of 74 00:04:24,399 --> 00:04:28,480 his thought into each thing that he said and created. 75 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,720 And nowhere is that more true of Till we Have Faces. 76 00:04:31,759 --> 00:04:35,439 Speaker 1: That this book really gathers together in. 77 00:04:35,439 --> 00:04:41,319 Speaker 2: His most mythic form, in his highest level of literature, 78 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,399 everything that Lewis thought about everything. So if people are 79 00:04:44,439 --> 00:04:47,319 going to study one book, I think that Till we 80 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,120 Have Faces is the book to study, not only because 81 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,839 it pulls together all the threads of Lewis's thought in 82 00:04:53,879 --> 00:04:57,040 a really well crafted novel, but also because it is 83 00:04:57,079 --> 00:04:59,040 his most difficult book. And so if you're going to 84 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:00,680 have a guide, if you're going to and discuss it 85 00:05:00,759 --> 00:05:03,199 with others, this is the book to do. 86 00:05:03,319 --> 00:05:03,439 Speaker 1: So. 87 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 2: Andrew Lazzo, another Lewis scholar, he calls Till We Have 88 00:05:07,319 --> 00:05:10,279 Faces like the Rosetta Stone of C. S. 89 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: Lewis's work. 90 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 2: So if you can decode the language of this book, 91 00:05:14,639 --> 00:05:16,839 then you can go to all of Lewis's other work, 92 00:05:17,079 --> 00:05:19,480 have the tools you need to read the rest of 93 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:21,519 his corpus. So that's the main reason I thought, Okay, 94 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,800 we're going to do another class. It's my second favorite 95 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,360 book after Perilandra. We already did the Ransom trilogy. But 96 00:05:28,439 --> 00:05:32,680 then also because everybody's talking about re enchantment, right everyone 97 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:37,040 is talking about the return of the gods, and this 98 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:41,160 book is a myth retold and it's told in an 99 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:45,720 ancient pagan mythical context. And so if we're going to 100 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,480 start talking and thinking about re enchantment and how do 101 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,319 we approach that, this book is right on point for 102 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,399 the theme you know that we see percolating through culture 103 00:05:57,439 --> 00:05:58,319 right now. 104 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, when I read it, I felt very similar 105 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,240 to what you're saying. You know, it's a it's very 106 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,000 it's a very strange book in some ways, you know, 107 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,079 because I'm used, how can I say this? 108 00:06:09,439 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 4: I've had my criticism of C. S. 109 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 3: Lewis, like in some ways the same criticism that you 110 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:15,800 know Tolkien had of some of his work, which is 111 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,160 that there's too much of a one to one thing 112 00:06:18,199 --> 00:06:20,160 and it is like a kind of metaphorical language that 113 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:22,199 is a little too on the nose, like it's you know, 114 00:06:22,199 --> 00:06:22,439 it's like. 115 00:06:22,439 --> 00:06:25,079 Speaker 4: Aslin is Jesus. We all know the critique, you know. 116 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 3: And I still loved, Yes, I love his theoretical work 117 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:29,519 to do, of course, and I think he's a he's 118 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:31,839 really a prophet for the modern for the modern age. 119 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,759 But reading till we have Faces, you don't get that 120 00:06:34,879 --> 00:06:39,680 sense at all. You there's something far more eerie about 121 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,360 the presentation. There's there's a kind of ambiguity about some 122 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,720 of the elements in the story. And you know, there 123 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,480 the meditation, let's say, on our experience of the Numanus, 124 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,560 we could say this is Rodrere's word that he's using. 125 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,959 Is is far more subtle for those who don't know. 126 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,120 It's a it's a take on the myth of hero 127 00:07:00,319 --> 00:07:03,839 in psyche. So maybe you can take us through, you know, 128 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,680 some of the key things that make it relevant to 129 00:07:06,759 --> 00:07:07,360 us right now. 130 00:07:08,319 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: Well, let's start with. 131 00:07:11,279 --> 00:07:15,759 Speaker 2: Why you feel that a lot of Lewis's work is 132 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,000 a little on the nose or a little overly allegorical, 133 00:07:19,399 --> 00:07:23,879 or as you said, Tolkien had that criticism. So Lewis 134 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:31,240 himself felt really deeply this bifurcation between his rational side. 135 00:07:31,399 --> 00:07:32,079 Speaker 1: You know, he's a. 136 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 2: Modern man, educated in the modern world, and then his 137 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:40,759 mythic side, or his imagination. He was an ulster irishman, 138 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:45,120 he was. He loved the mystical green hills of Ireland 139 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,000 and the myths and the legends of Ireland, and so 140 00:07:47,199 --> 00:07:52,759 Lewis himself felt he felt very bifurcated. He wrote in 141 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:57,519 his autobiography that the two hemispheres of my mind were 142 00:07:57,519 --> 00:08:01,759 in sharpest contrast. On the one side, this mini islanded 143 00:08:01,879 --> 00:08:05,319 sea of poetry and myth, and on the other this 144 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,920 glib and shallow rationalism. And he said, for you know, 145 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,199 most of his young adult life, everything he loved he 146 00:08:12,319 --> 00:08:15,800 thought was imaginary or unreal, and everything he thought to 147 00:08:15,839 --> 00:08:18,519 be real or true he thought grim and meaningless. And 148 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:25,560 so he started adulthood with this really bifurcated experience of reality. 149 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:29,720 It was Tolkien Barfield first, and then Tolkien and Hugo 150 00:08:29,759 --> 00:08:34,840 Dyson who helped him see that in Christ right, myth 151 00:08:34,879 --> 00:08:37,960 in fact came together, and so that was the turning 152 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:39,840 point for him. But I think it took him a 153 00:08:39,879 --> 00:08:44,240 long while to actually work out how to integrate those 154 00:08:44,399 --> 00:08:49,039 modes within his own imagination and his own work. Right 155 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,879 so early on, his first work was pure allegory. So 156 00:08:52,919 --> 00:08:56,559 he tries to write his conversion experience in the Pilgrim's Regress, 157 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:00,480 which is just like Pilgrim's Progress total all, you know, 158 00:09:00,519 --> 00:09:04,159 that one to one correspondence. And then he starts to 159 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,559 write his apologetic work in nonfiction. So he's writing a 160 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,039 nonfiction or analytical mode, and then he'll write, you know, 161 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:15,240 something imaginative like screwtape Letters or Great Divorce, and you 162 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,480 kind of see him switching back and forth between rational 163 00:09:19,519 --> 00:09:23,840 mode and then mythic mode. And you know, his friend 164 00:09:23,879 --> 00:09:27,559 Owen Barfield would tease him that he had this expository 165 00:09:27,759 --> 00:09:30,279 demon that he would try to write fiction, he would 166 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,600 slip back into the analytical mode and have a digression 167 00:09:33,639 --> 00:09:38,440 on philosophy or theology. And it was another turning point 168 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:43,440 for him was his debate at the Oxford Debate Club 169 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:47,679 with the philosopher Elizabeth Anskm. So he was debating his 170 00:09:47,799 --> 00:09:50,440 argument and Miracles with Anskam and he kind of lost 171 00:09:50,519 --> 00:09:54,480 the debate, and that caused him to reevaluate. 172 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:57,559 Speaker 1: You know, one he always wanted to be a poet, 173 00:09:57,759 --> 00:09:58,679 not a philosopher. 174 00:09:58,879 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 2: So was that's really the best way to use his 175 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:06,240 energy in kind of this analytical, rational mode of argument. 176 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,039 Was that really the best place for him to be, 177 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,720 And so that's when he he kind of set aside 178 00:10:13,759 --> 00:10:17,960 his rational, apologetic work and picked up the Chronicles of Narnia, 179 00:10:18,039 --> 00:10:21,000 picked up fairy tales. And what I think is that 180 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,000 he has this essay called, sometimes a fairy tale may 181 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,159 best say what's to be said, right, maybe you can 182 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,200 relate to fairy tales being the best way to say 183 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:31,720 what we need to say, and he says it. What 184 00:10:31,799 --> 00:10:35,840 he loved about fairy tales was their severe form, the 185 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,120 way that a fairy tale is. So it must be simple, 186 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,159 it must be pure, and it is intolerant of what 187 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,120 he called gas or. And so what he did, I 188 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,600 think is submit himself to the form of a fairy 189 00:10:48,639 --> 00:10:52,759 tale as a kind of mode of discipline, to purge 190 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:57,480 himself of that expository demon. And so writing those children's 191 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:01,000 fairy tales disciplined him as a writer, forced him to 192 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:05,600 stay within the mode of narrative and not fall into 193 00:11:05,639 --> 00:11:09,759 those rational, analytical digressions. And then I think by the 194 00:11:09,799 --> 00:11:13,559 time he finished his seventh Narnian Chronicle his seventh Fairy Tales, 195 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:18,120 he kind of trained himself in how to better communicate 196 00:11:18,159 --> 00:11:21,639 what he had to say while staying within the narrative, 197 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,679 within the mythic, and then he was ready for that 198 00:11:24,799 --> 00:11:27,120 mode at the level of an adult novel, right because 199 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,320 an adult novel you pull off the training wheels, you 200 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,440 can start to slip into digression if you want to. 201 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:35,720 But by that time I think he'd figured it out. 202 00:11:36,279 --> 00:11:39,799 And then unfortunately, you know, he passed away within a 203 00:11:39,879 --> 00:11:43,320 decade after writing till we have Faces, and so we 204 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:47,360 don't get more of these novels from the mature Lewis, 205 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:48,639 but at least we got one. 206 00:11:49,759 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 4: At least he got one. 207 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 3: And so the strangest thing about two Wet Face is 208 00:11:54,519 --> 00:11:56,799 that it I mean, some people have said it's his 209 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,559 most Christian work or something like that, but it's also 210 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,159 a pagan story, you know, and the strangeness of the 211 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,200 pagan world and the kind of cruelty of the pagan 212 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,360 world is put at the forefront. You know. The figure 213 00:12:10,399 --> 00:12:12,840 of the father, you know, is this kind of brutal, 214 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,799 this brutal man, you know, and the and the daughters 215 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,519 trying to kind of find their way around that you know, 216 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,399 and it seems to continue. It's interesting because it also 217 00:12:22,399 --> 00:12:25,720 seems to continue the line of Narnia, which Narnia although 218 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,200 it's more Christian in the appearance because of Aslan and 219 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,120 some of the characters are kind of really kind of 220 00:12:31,159 --> 00:12:36,200 Christian allegories. But nonetheless he picked a kind of pagan landscape, 221 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:37,720 you know, for Narnia as well. And so do you 222 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,120 have insight about that? Like something I've been thinking about 223 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,559 a lot for Token as well. Why why did they 224 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:48,279 skirt writing within the Christian cosmology? Why did they want 225 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,759 to write within the with these pagan images? And I 226 00:12:51,759 --> 00:12:53,639 have nothing against it, by the way, It's not a critique. 227 00:12:53,639 --> 00:12:55,639 I'm just curious about what it is that prompted that. 228 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I do think a lot of people experience 229 00:12:58,279 --> 00:13:05,519 it as confusing. Lewis tells us that again in that essay, 230 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,600 sometimes fairy tales may say what's best to be said, 231 00:13:09,639 --> 00:13:12,440 which is a wonderful and a terrible title all at once. 232 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,440 That you know, what he felt like is when you 233 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:22,039 when you speak directly to someone, you you rouse their 234 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,360 self defenses, Right, Jonathan. 235 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: You should do this, You should believe that. 236 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,039 Speaker 2: And by nature we say, well should I you know, 237 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,759 we have a natural defensiveness. And so he says that 238 00:13:34,039 --> 00:13:38,600 myth and fairy tale can sneak past the watchful dragons. 239 00:13:38,639 --> 00:13:40,799 It can take an idea that if we encounter it 240 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:45,000 directly with you know, this is what the law does. 241 00:13:45,159 --> 00:13:48,200 Like Paul tells us that the law actually rouses sin 242 00:13:48,279 --> 00:13:51,519 in us. It's just something true about our human nature. 243 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:54,919 When you tell me not to think about unicorns, well, 244 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,679 I want to think about unicorns. And so if we 245 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:01,240 take the truth, the thing we need to know, the 246 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,519 thing we need to see, and we put it, we 247 00:14:03,639 --> 00:14:07,240 tell it slant like that poem poem, tell the truth, 248 00:14:07,279 --> 00:14:09,039 but tell it slant that we put it in the 249 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:13,600 context of a fantasy world or a mythic world, or 250 00:14:13,639 --> 00:14:16,120 a world over here, then we can sneak past the 251 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,279 watchful dragons. We can we can bring in truths we 252 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,039 need to see about reality in a way that is slant, 253 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,320 in a way that we don't expect, in a way 254 00:14:26,399 --> 00:14:31,879 that strikes at the roots deeper than our conscious, conscious 255 00:14:31,919 --> 00:14:35,159 self defenses. And so that's where I think both Tolkien 256 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,279 and Lewis looked to myth, look to fairy tales, look 257 00:14:38,399 --> 00:14:42,279 to things that didn't feel overtly Christian because they wanted 258 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:48,320 to reframe these truths about reality that they wanted to 259 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:52,279 share with people for their own good, right, but in 260 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:57,559 ways that could sneak past those dragons and help open 261 00:14:57,679 --> 00:15:01,000 people up to them in different ways. But in terms 262 00:15:01,039 --> 00:15:03,639 of you know, till we have faces and it's very 263 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:08,120 pagan because it does feel dark, doesn't it. We have 264 00:15:08,279 --> 00:15:13,320 human sacrifice. It's a story about human sacrifice. And so 265 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,159 I've been, you know, thinking about this, and I think 266 00:15:16,159 --> 00:15:20,159 what lewis how he created stories is he said that, 267 00:15:20,679 --> 00:15:24,480 you know, he did not have a truth he wanted 268 00:15:24,519 --> 00:15:26,360 to tell, you know that, Oh I want to tell 269 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,480 children about the love of Jesus. How could I do that? 270 00:15:29,639 --> 00:15:31,919 Let me think of a lion that could you know? 271 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:36,360 He said, That's not the way the imagination works. The 272 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:41,799 imagination works by perceiving an image or being captured by 273 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:46,320 some image, and then meditating on the image to perceive 274 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:51,240 through the imagination the meaning that is there. Right, So 275 00:15:51,279 --> 00:15:53,799 an artist doesn't impose meaning on the world. 276 00:15:54,519 --> 00:15:56,919 Speaker 1: An artist perceives. 277 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:00,639 Speaker 2: The meaning of the world through the muse of the imagination. 278 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:05,639 And so the story of Cupid and Psyche caught Lewis's imagination. 279 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,120 Actually when he was a very young man and he 280 00:16:08,279 --> 00:16:12,039 tried to write several poems early on, and they just 281 00:16:12,279 --> 00:16:14,720 they never worked. They never resonated. We talk about this 282 00:16:14,759 --> 00:16:17,080 in the class in the first session. You know why, 283 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,519 I don't think they resonated. But it wasn't until what 284 00:16:19,639 --> 00:16:22,559 thirty five years later, as an older man, that finally 285 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:27,960 he had the maturity, the religious vision to perceive what 286 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:32,440 those stories were trying to tell him. And I, you know, 287 00:16:32,519 --> 00:16:35,679 my theory is and this is something I want to 288 00:16:35,679 --> 00:16:37,600 talk to you about because I know, you know Rene 289 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:42,200 Girard and his his theory of a medic desire. And 290 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,399 what struck me is that, you know, for for Lewis, 291 00:16:45,519 --> 00:16:48,240 when he's coming to myth and he's talking about myth 292 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,799 most of his life, he's seeing. 293 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,159 Speaker 1: Myth as as. 294 00:16:54,799 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 2: Anticipation, anticipations of truth, that that myth is our way 295 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:05,839 of trying to see through the veil and perceive truths 296 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:11,480 about the divine nature. And so for Lewis he you know, 297 00:17:11,559 --> 00:17:15,240 gleams myths or gleams of light. Okay, but that strikes 298 00:17:15,279 --> 00:17:18,279 me as fairly different from it when a Girard is 299 00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:22,839 saying about myth. Right because Gerard is saying that myths 300 00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:28,799 are actually that as humans, we encounter a good, so 301 00:17:28,839 --> 00:17:31,200 we see someone else desiring a good. So in the 302 00:17:31,279 --> 00:17:34,799 story until we have faces, we see that the beauty 303 00:17:34,839 --> 00:17:39,960 of Psyche, she's beautiful, and we see people desire her beauty. 304 00:17:40,319 --> 00:17:44,279 And when when Rowell sees someone desire the beauty of Psyche, 305 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:49,279 that rouses an arowell imitative desire. She also wants the 306 00:17:49,279 --> 00:17:52,000 beauty of Psyche, and then that creates the rivalry. 307 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: The archetype of this is Helen. 308 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 2: Right, This is I think one reason why why do 309 00:17:57,559 --> 00:18:01,400 all stories connect back to true Right, isn't it bizarre? 310 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,920 Everyone's always wanting to be on the side of the losers, right, 311 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,519 we want to identify with the Trojans, Like what's going on? 312 00:18:06,799 --> 00:18:08,960 Part of I think is that Helen is the archetype 313 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,480 of mimetic desire. The most beautiful woman in the world. Well, 314 00:18:12,519 --> 00:18:16,319 what does beauty do? Beauty rouses our desire. Everybody wants 315 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:19,079 the most beautiful woman in the world. That creates this 316 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,559 memetic competition for a finite good. Well, not everyone can 317 00:18:22,599 --> 00:18:26,079 have a finite good. Therefore there's violence and conflict, and 318 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,039 the whole world burns down. Right, The cities are destroyed, 319 00:18:29,039 --> 00:18:33,359 the Greek armies are destroyed. Mimetic desire destroys the world. 320 00:18:34,079 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: Right, So what does Gerard say, So, how do we 321 00:18:36,039 --> 00:18:36,519 cope with that? 322 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 2: Well, you create the scapegoat mechanism, right, so that and 323 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:46,240 you know, the whole war, the Trojan war, could have 324 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:50,240 been avoided if they just let Paris be the scapegoat, right, like. 325 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 3: Just giving up Paris, like things would have would have 326 00:18:56,079 --> 00:18:57,519 been solved something like that. 327 00:18:57,599 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 2: Well, you actually find in the iliat that they try, 328 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,119 but the gods won't let them. Irony, right, So so 329 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,079 you come with a scapegoat mechanism. Well, we'll put all 330 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:11,960 the blame on this one person and then cast out, exile, 331 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,160 or kill the scapegoat so as to resolve the violence, 332 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,119 so as to present the whole world from burning down. 333 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,079 And then, for Gerard, a myth is the story that 334 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:26,039 we make up to justify that violence, to give that violence, 335 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,880 you know, the the the a divine justification. 336 00:19:30,079 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: Well, the gods required it. So for Gerard, myths are. 337 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 2: Lies or deceptions that we create and then participate in 338 00:19:39,799 --> 00:19:44,559 through ritual in order to justify right, the violence against 339 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:45,279 the victim. 340 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 1: Wait, so it. 341 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 2: Struck me that those are two very different approaches to myths, 342 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:55,160 where for Gerard, myth is deception and for Lewis myth 343 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:56,920 is gleams of truth. 344 00:19:57,079 --> 00:19:58,279 Speaker 1: Well, which one is it? 345 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,599 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I think it's both. 346 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 3: I think for sure is your ards you as you. 347 00:20:06,279 --> 00:20:08,279 I mean, I'm not an expert on Grard, but you know, 348 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:10,960 the more that I think about his basic premise, the 349 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,880 more I realize that he's he's fifty percent right and 350 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,000 therefore fifty percent wrong. Like he gets he gets half 351 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,799 of sacrifice, but he doesn't understand the other half, you know, 352 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,880 because there are two aspects of sacrifices. You know, there 353 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,200 is the scapegoat sacrifice. And one of the things that 354 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,799 I think this is the most difficult aspect of this 355 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:35,839 idea is that if you understand the problem of scapegoat, 356 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,599 the question of scapegoat sacrifice, it's more than just. 357 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:40,400 Speaker 4: An idea of mimetic desire. 358 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 3: It is that, but it actually is the way that 359 00:20:43,519 --> 00:20:47,039 identity functions. In order for identity to function, you have 360 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,640 to decide where how can I say this, You have 361 00:20:50,759 --> 00:20:53,960 to eject the things that don't fit from an identity. 362 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,480 That is actually how all identity functions. You have to 363 00:20:56,519 --> 00:20:59,200 be able to expel the things that that aren't conducive 364 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,799 to the cohesion of the identity, whether you do it 365 00:21:01,839 --> 00:21:03,640 conceptually or whether you do. 366 00:21:03,599 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 4: It in practice, like in a group. 367 00:21:05,079 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 3: You know, you you know, if you if you have 368 00:21:07,079 --> 00:21:08,839 if you have a company and there's someone in the 369 00:21:08,839 --> 00:21:12,599 company that is not a good employee and you eject them, Like, 370 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,599 is that a scapegoat sacrifice? I mean, maybe it's a 371 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,400 scapegoat sacrifice. And sometimes it has a mimetic aspect, which 372 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,799 would uh, which in which you can put more blame 373 00:21:22,839 --> 00:21:25,240 on the person you eject than they deserve in order 374 00:21:25,279 --> 00:21:28,480 to reinforce the cohesion. But it's also it's also a 375 00:21:28,519 --> 00:21:33,000 necessary part of identity to eject things that don't fit. Now, 376 00:21:33,039 --> 00:21:37,359 of course, the extremely ritualized aspect of mimetic sacrifice that appears, 377 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,039 you know, in the ancient world, uh, you know, obviously 378 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,839 has you can kind of understand how it's closer to 379 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:49,279 what Gerard is saying. But you know, this is I 380 00:21:49,279 --> 00:21:51,400 think that this is where Gerard gets it wrong, is 381 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,599 that mimetic sacrifice is revealing an aspect of how reality works, 382 00:21:55,599 --> 00:21:58,400 and it is revealing an aspect of how identity functions. 383 00:21:58,519 --> 00:22:01,359 It actually works, it actually, it actually and the idea 384 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:08,079 that Christ is only exposing the false nature of mimetic sacrifice, 385 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,519 I think that that's a wrong take on it. 386 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,079 Speaker 4: I think that what Christ does is that. 387 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:17,839 Speaker 3: He fuses the two aspects of sacrifice together, which is 388 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,319 the second part of sacrifice, is the one that Gerard 389 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,519 seems at least struggle to understand, which is the idea 390 00:22:23,599 --> 00:22:27,680 of giving up the best, up to up to God, 391 00:22:27,799 --> 00:22:30,519 right the escape goes in the yng keyboard. Sacrifice are 392 00:22:30,519 --> 00:22:34,160 two sacrifices. One is the scapegoad sacrifice and one is 393 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,240 the purification sacrifice. One is cast out of the identity 394 00:22:38,519 --> 00:22:40,759 in order to wander and to kind of become the 395 00:22:40,799 --> 00:22:43,799 crooked aspect of you know, take on the crooked aspect 396 00:22:43,799 --> 00:22:47,000 of our identity the sins, and the other is offered 397 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,200 up to God and its blood comes back down to cover, 398 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,000 you know, the holy things and bind them. 399 00:22:53,559 --> 00:22:55,079 Speaker 4: That's a good way of understanding it. 400 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 3: And so those are the two aspects of sacrifice in 401 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,279 Christ shows us how oins them together in a very 402 00:23:01,319 --> 00:23:05,680 particular and transcendent way. And so that's why I think that, 403 00:23:06,599 --> 00:23:09,480 and it's you think about it, like the two aspects 404 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,319 of reality in general, which is all representations of reality 405 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,839 are both a representation of reality and not the thing 406 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,960 that is represented. And so all levels of being can 407 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,480 be represented as truth, which manifests God to us, and 408 00:23:23,559 --> 00:23:26,680 as a lie, which is a veil that's hiding truth 409 00:23:26,759 --> 00:23:30,039 from us because God is beyond that reality. And so 410 00:23:30,079 --> 00:23:32,960 that's just how the world functions. If you take the 411 00:23:33,039 --> 00:23:35,960 veil for itself, then it's an idol, Then it's a mistake, 412 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,079 then it's a lie, then it's a then it's a 413 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,799 you know. But if you take the veil as something 414 00:23:40,839 --> 00:23:44,000 that's translucent through which you see the light come through, 415 00:23:44,599 --> 00:23:48,119 and as something that is revealing, you know, imperfectly a 416 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,759 higher truth, then it's a form of truth right at 417 00:23:51,799 --> 00:23:54,279 the level that it's supposed to be, not ultimate truth. 418 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,079 And so I think that that's the that's the way 419 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,359 to understand it, you know. And you know, interestingly enough, 420 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,000 I think that these are themes that are in. 421 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 4: Till we have face. Yes, yes, no, yes, I mean 422 00:24:05,759 --> 00:24:07,079 you can elaborate. 423 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 3: On that, because the whole question of veils is very 424 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,079 important in the story. 425 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,319 Speaker 1: Yes, And I think so. 426 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,759 Speaker 2: I think this is part of why the story captured 427 00:24:14,799 --> 00:24:20,359 his imagination, is because the story itself points towards this 428 00:24:20,519 --> 00:24:27,440 polyvalency of symbolism and of sacrifice. And I think Lewis, 429 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,359 as a young man, it's almost like the world is 430 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,680 like a rorsch act test, right, because symbols have that 431 00:24:33,759 --> 00:24:37,759 poly valancy, you know, And as Christ said, to the pure, 432 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,079 all things are pure to those and defiled and believing 433 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:45,519 nothing is pure, right, So that symbolism has that double 434 00:24:45,599 --> 00:24:49,640 vision to it, right, and so that we can see 435 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,160 what we want to see, or that what we see 436 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,839 is actually a revelation of our own hearts and our 437 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,559 own desires the way that the symbolism is set up. 438 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,799 And so Lewis is a young man looked at this 439 00:25:01,039 --> 00:25:03,799 myth and he saw that the gods were in the wrong, 440 00:25:06,519 --> 00:25:09,160 but he could never make the story make sense from 441 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,559 that perspective, right. And then later, as an older man, 442 00:25:12,799 --> 00:25:18,240 he came to see that the older sister was indeed 443 00:25:18,279 --> 00:25:21,720 and the wrong. And so I think the story captured 444 00:25:21,799 --> 00:25:25,440 him because of its double vision, because of the way 445 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,640 it shows both the demonic side of sacrifice and the 446 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,119 true side of sacrifice. And yeah, it very much is 447 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,359 connected to the imagery of the veil itself, right, which 448 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:40,119 is I think one of the most clearly polyvalent symbols, right, A. 449 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:41,519 Speaker 1: Veil both. 450 00:25:42,799 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 2: Conceals and reveals, and you see that double symbolism all 451 00:25:49,039 --> 00:25:52,880 throughout the story. And then the main character wrestling with 452 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,279 being you know, this is part of why the story 453 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,079 is so fascinating, because the whole first half is written 454 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:05,720 from one side of the symbolism, and then she has 455 00:26:05,759 --> 00:26:10,519 an experience that forces her to change and then begin 456 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:15,920 to rewrite her own history, to rework and see the 457 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,839 other side of the veil throughout her own story, which 458 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,519 she didn't see before. So all of those themes are 459 00:26:23,519 --> 00:26:26,519 in this story. And I think it's what attracted Lewis 460 00:26:26,599 --> 00:26:30,079 to the story, the way that it did pull together 461 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:37,440 the major themes of his life into one narrative, because you. 462 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 4: See, like it's interesting. 463 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 3: There is a sense, like in Parailandra in the Marston series, 464 00:26:43,279 --> 00:26:48,519 you get this sense that the principalities are double, Like 465 00:26:48,559 --> 00:26:51,000 you really do see that that in some ways he 466 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,559 tries to formulate it in a way he's saying, in 467 00:26:53,599 --> 00:26:56,640 some ways, the way that we perceive these principalities has 468 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,119 been twisted, you know, by the evil one, and therefore 469 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,200 the version we have it's kind of an impure version 470 00:27:01,279 --> 00:27:01,680 of the. 471 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 4: Of the principalities. 472 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,039 Speaker 3: But if you but at the end of the series, 473 00:27:05,039 --> 00:27:07,680 you know, you see this glimmering image of Venus and Mars, 474 00:27:08,039 --> 00:27:12,079 who are ultimately the ancient pagan gods, but like as 475 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,920 they are messengers from the from the High God in 476 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,960 the sense of how they are representations, you know, in 477 00:27:18,039 --> 00:27:21,200 their proper sphere of masculinity and femininity you could say, 478 00:27:21,519 --> 00:27:25,119 of God. And so you know, it's in this book 479 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,599 you have kind of the same idea because this, you know, 480 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:29,400 for people who don't know, like we're talking about it 481 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,720 and we're not telling people what the story about. Like this, 482 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,519 this woman is given, you know, kind of sacrifice to 483 00:27:34,599 --> 00:27:38,440 this God, and there's a strange you know, in some ways, 484 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,799 she's supposed to die there with the God. And when 485 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:43,839 you see her from the outside, she becomes this like 486 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,640 ragged princess. You know, she looks like she's almost like 487 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,240 a homeless lady. But in her inner experience of what's happening, 488 00:27:50,279 --> 00:27:54,079 she's actually the bride of of a of a of 489 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,000 a god like she and she's the bride of a god, 490 00:27:56,039 --> 00:27:58,720 but she has to be careful in the way in 491 00:27:58,759 --> 00:28:00,640 which he deals with the God, that she has to 492 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,680 like not look at the God directly. She has to 493 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,319 be patient and kind of wait for the God to 494 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:10,440 reveal himself to her in the proper circumstance so that 495 00:28:10,519 --> 00:28:15,599 she doesn't you know, let's say, transgress what the relationship 496 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,119 she has with the God and so, and ultimately these 497 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:20,559 two parts seem to be true, like. 498 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:21,839 Speaker 4: You could actually read it. 499 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 3: You can read it from both sides, like she really 500 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,880 is this ragged princess like running around barely almost homeless, 501 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,680 but her inexperience is also described as true in the story. 502 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's part of what makes the story 503 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,200 so well crafted, is that the way that Lewis tells 504 00:28:38,279 --> 00:28:43,119 the story, he maintains the tension of a double vision 505 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:44,799 or a double interpretation. 506 00:28:45,359 --> 00:28:45,519 Speaker 1: You know. 507 00:28:45,559 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 2: One way he does that is the contrast between the priest, 508 00:28:48,759 --> 00:28:53,759 who represents the pagan mythic imagination and the fox who 509 00:28:53,839 --> 00:28:59,039 represents he's a stoic kind of enlightenment philosopher in a sense, 510 00:28:59,599 --> 00:29:04,160 rational enlightenment, and that as the events of the story progress, 511 00:29:05,079 --> 00:29:08,759 you can interpret it from either angle. It makes sense 512 00:29:08,839 --> 00:29:11,519 if you look at it from the priest's angle, who 513 00:29:11,599 --> 00:29:14,880 is referring to the gods, you know, who are demanding 514 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,359 the sacrifice of the a curse to make the fields, 515 00:29:19,119 --> 00:29:22,039 you know, to bring to heal the plague and the famine. 516 00:29:22,599 --> 00:29:26,319 You can also interpret it from the fox's perspective of 517 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:32,720 that doesn't make sense he's saying things. Let's see how 518 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,039 the fox's perspective might work. Is that, well, of course 519 00:29:36,119 --> 00:29:39,000 the rains came after the sacrifice, because they had to 520 00:29:39,039 --> 00:29:39,759 come sometime. 521 00:29:40,519 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 3: Right. 522 00:29:42,079 --> 00:29:45,599 Speaker 2: Of course, when things go badly, you can always invent 523 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,200 a scapegoat to blame. That doesn't mean it was the 524 00:29:48,319 --> 00:29:52,519 scapegoat who caused the famine. And so the way that 525 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,000 Lewis tells the story, the whole time he pulls out 526 00:29:56,039 --> 00:30:00,160 this double vision, he pulls out this polyvalency again, and 527 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,920 so that the story functions as a reflection on the reader, 528 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,799 so that you know, the first time I read it, 529 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:08,920 I didn't like it. 530 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,839 Speaker 4: And the first time, pardon I didn't like the story. 531 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,559 Speaker 2: I didn't even make it past page ten. You know, 532 00:30:15,599 --> 00:30:17,039 the first time I read it, I was like, what 533 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,079 is going on? Then the second time I read it, 534 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,559 I sided with Oral and the fox, and you know, 535 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,200 kind of my maybe more conservative Christian bias against the 536 00:30:29,279 --> 00:30:33,000 evils of paganism. Right then the third time I read it, 537 00:30:33,519 --> 00:30:38,200 I saw the darkness of oral And so each time 538 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,039 you read it, because he's done such a perfect job 539 00:30:41,119 --> 00:30:45,880 of pulling out that tension, showing the double vision of 540 00:30:46,039 --> 00:30:50,640 that we do experience in reality, makes the story itself 541 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,000 a mirror in which you have to wrestle with your 542 00:30:54,039 --> 00:30:57,720 own desires and what you want to see out of 543 00:30:57,759 --> 00:30:59,079 the world and out of the story. 544 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,799 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean, do you see those two sides, 545 00:31:03,279 --> 00:31:06,440 because the outs that you've presented Lewis as someone who 546 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,880 in himself kind of wrestled with these two aspects, a 547 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:14,079 more kind of medieval enchanted vision of the world, but 548 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,119 then also this, you know, kind of rationalistic modern man. 549 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:19,799 I mean, do you see that these this is what's 550 00:31:19,839 --> 00:31:22,839 going on in the story itself with these these two characters. 551 00:31:22,839 --> 00:31:24,599 Speaker 4: Are these two aspects of the story. 552 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, very much. 553 00:31:25,279 --> 00:31:30,079 Speaker 2: And you can see quotes that orwell speaks that are 554 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,880 paraphrases from Lewis's own autobiography. She She also says, I 555 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,640 felt literally torn into the way that Lewis says that, 556 00:31:38,279 --> 00:31:41,920 So he very much is there's an autobiographical element, but 557 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,599 it need not be about Lewis because it's really about 558 00:31:45,039 --> 00:31:48,160 us as modern people, right at the end of the 559 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:54,279 modern world, the collapse of modern rationalism, wrestling through how 560 00:31:54,319 --> 00:31:59,960 to find a mode of reintegration, knowing that we can't 561 00:32:00,119 --> 00:32:01,279 go back to. 562 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: Ancient paganism. 563 00:32:04,039 --> 00:32:07,279 Speaker 2: And Lewis is very influenced by his friend Owen Barfield, Right, 564 00:32:07,319 --> 00:32:09,200 And I don't know if you've read Barfield Saving the 565 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:13,359 Appearances or poetic Diction, and he very much talks about 566 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:20,680 how for the ancient person, the ancient person would perceive 567 00:32:20,799 --> 00:32:26,079 the world as unities, and he calls the So you'll 568 00:32:26,119 --> 00:32:30,920 see this in a classic example, is the idea of breath, right, 569 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:32,680 is it breath or. 570 00:32:32,599 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: Is it spirit? 571 00:32:33,279 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 2: Well, for the ancient person, yes, they didn't experience that 572 00:32:36,799 --> 00:32:40,279 as separate things. It was the breath and the spirit 573 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,720 were a unity, and so they would perceive the world 574 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,160 in unities, and that it was, you know, let's say, 575 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:53,039 beginning with Greek philosophy and then you know, not being 576 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,240 a foretaste of what would come in the modern enlightenment, 577 00:32:56,839 --> 00:33:01,960 where through because think about reason, reason works through through bifurcation. 578 00:33:02,359 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: Is it a or not a? Is it A or B? 579 00:33:06,039 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 2: And so reason works by differentiating. Right, So it's that 580 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,279 fall into duality, which brings a certain kind of knowledge, 581 00:33:14,079 --> 00:33:17,480 but at a certain cost. And so for Barfield, you know, 582 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:22,000 human consciousness begin through experiencing the world through these unities. 583 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,680 And you talk about this all the time, right where 584 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,839 those distinctions almost don't make sense when you're going back 585 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,000 to look at a biblical or ancient motive being. And 586 00:33:31,039 --> 00:33:33,880 then in the modern world, moving toward the modern world, 587 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:35,640 more and more and more and more. 588 00:33:35,559 --> 00:33:37,039 Speaker 1: We separate. 589 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:42,279 Speaker 2: Using the instrument of reason into this or that, you know, 590 00:33:42,319 --> 00:33:44,960 And these are some of those the silliness that happens 591 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:45,640 over theology. 592 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: Well is it works or faith? 593 00:33:47,039 --> 00:33:50,519 Speaker 2: You know? Well, that makes no sense to an age 594 00:33:50,559 --> 00:33:53,000 the faith that works. What do you mean believing and 595 00:33:53,119 --> 00:33:54,240 not embodying it? 596 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: Right like? That makes no sense. And so modern man, has. 597 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 2: You really ripped the world apart into body and spirit, 598 00:34:03,279 --> 00:34:08,000 into this or that? And so Lewis we are all, 599 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,280 you know, striving after now as we see, that's not 600 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:15,239 gonna work. It's led us to nihilism. We're striving after 601 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,920 a mode of reintegration, which Barfield called a final participation. 602 00:34:20,599 --> 00:34:25,440 And in that sense it's it's that the you can 603 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,840 maybe see a kind of providence. 604 00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:29,559 Speaker 3: There. 605 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:34,159 Speaker 2: So in sports. So for me, I'm a drissage writer. 606 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:39,440 Is that so like snobby or what? But and in 607 00:34:39,559 --> 00:34:43,119 dressage we'll talk about in training that you're aiming for 608 00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:46,920 a simplicity on the other side of complexity. Okay, so 609 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,320 when you start something, there's a kind of simplicity. We'll 610 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,440 just get on the horse and kick right, yeah, okay, 611 00:34:52,039 --> 00:34:53,320 And then you get into it and you try and 612 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:54,920 get good, you realize it's not that simple at all. 613 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:59,800 It's extraordinary complex and you fall into multiplicity because you're 614 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,440 trying to figure out how to control every inch of 615 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,239 your body. But once you move through that complexity on 616 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,559 the other side, you have a reintegrated simplicity where you 617 00:35:10,599 --> 00:35:13,079 then you just ride. And that's the flow that people 618 00:35:13,079 --> 00:35:17,039 are aiming toward in sports, right And for Barfield and 619 00:35:17,079 --> 00:35:20,480 for Lewis, that's what modern man we're trying to reach 620 00:35:20,599 --> 00:35:25,920 toward a simplicity, a reintegration of mind and body that's 621 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:30,960 on the other side of this multiplicity that we've fallen into. 622 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,440 And for Lewis, the key is myth because he thinks 623 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:41,039 that in store in myth mythic stories, not modern novels 624 00:35:41,039 --> 00:35:45,000 that are full of idiosyncrasies, but mythic stories, what we 625 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:53,280 have is an imaginative experience of universal truths. So myth 626 00:35:53,320 --> 00:36:00,480 itself will bring together a participatory, embodied, ritual, imaginative mode 627 00:36:00,519 --> 00:36:04,760 of reality with all of these truths that reason has discovered, 628 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,400 but give us an experience of them in a way 629 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,119 that brings the parts of our our soul back together. 630 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 3: Sorry, that was maybe I think that this is really 631 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,480 what you're saying is really important, you know. And then 632 00:36:18,599 --> 00:36:22,440 the the question, and this is the question someways in 633 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,400 symbolic world we've been talking about exactly what you're saying 634 00:36:25,559 --> 00:36:28,559 is that this is inevitable, like this is in some 635 00:36:28,599 --> 00:36:31,159 ways modernity is yielding. 636 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 4: To something like that. 637 00:36:32,079 --> 00:36:35,320 Speaker 3: The question is is it simply going to happen to 638 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,519 us or will we have some form of participation in 639 00:36:39,599 --> 00:36:42,840 the way it does. Because sometimes these myths, you know, 640 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,519 they break in, and then they break in in ways 641 00:36:45,559 --> 00:36:49,400 that can also be extremely destructive. You know, we've talked 642 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:55,760 about the during COVID, the George Floyd like situation where 643 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,039 all of a sudden, the story like just falls into 644 00:36:59,079 --> 00:37:03,440 culture and like captures everybody and mobilizes everybody in the world, 645 00:37:03,559 --> 00:37:04,639 like not just in America. 646 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,400 Speaker 4: For some reason, Like all over Europe, people are. 647 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,360 Speaker 3: Out in the streets, you know, and this character gets 648 00:37:10,559 --> 00:37:13,719 lifted up, you know, like a like an almost divine figure. 649 00:37:14,199 --> 00:37:16,519 But there are other types, there are other versions of 650 00:37:16,559 --> 00:37:19,119 that happening all the time where these stories kind of 651 00:37:19,119 --> 00:37:22,800 break in, and you know, it's interesting to think about 652 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,760 till we have Faces almost as a story about that, 653 00:37:27,039 --> 00:37:29,400 because the Fox, the Fox, for those who don't know, 654 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,880 the Fox is like a Greek, a slave that is 655 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,159 brought into this pagan world, and he kind of is 656 00:37:35,199 --> 00:37:38,760 a more rational person. He's a you know, he's in 657 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,719 always a representation of the modern mind that's thrown into 658 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,599 a kind of primitive and pagan world that he is 659 00:37:46,599 --> 00:37:48,480 trying to pull the people kind of. 660 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 4: Out of that world. 661 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,039 Speaker 3: But then what happens to this figure and to everybody 662 00:37:52,079 --> 00:37:53,559 in that world is that. 663 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:55,599 Speaker 4: The numinous just breaks in. 664 00:37:56,039 --> 00:37:59,280 Speaker 3: Basically, it's like now, what now, how do you deal 665 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,199 with this thing that's happening, this thing that is beyond 666 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:07,480 what reason can account for? H And in that context, 667 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,320 like you said, in some ways, the character of the 668 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,159 Fox all of a sudden becomes insufficient to be able 669 00:38:14,199 --> 00:38:17,280 to account for everything that's happening in the novel, even 670 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:22,280 though the character is very sympathetically portrayed, not at all 671 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,039 like I would tend to portray the modern person as 672 00:38:26,079 --> 00:38:28,880 with the kind of frustration of my experience with the 673 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,800 kind of modern reductionists. But but Lewis presents it very, 674 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,400 very sympathetically, and so in some ways, the whole story 675 00:38:36,639 --> 00:38:39,000 is an image of what it is that's happening to 676 00:38:39,079 --> 00:38:41,800 us now, which is as we can as modernity kind 677 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,440 of runs out, and now this newmaness is peeking in, 678 00:38:45,559 --> 00:38:48,880 you know, for those who are I mean, for goodness sake. 679 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:54,800 Speaker 4: I was watching the Trump's press press released. 680 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 3: Today with like all the AI people, and they're saying, 681 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,559 we're funding the largest AI thing in the world, five 682 00:39:00,679 --> 00:39:04,039 hundred billion dollars to build into AI infrastructure. We're calling 683 00:39:04,039 --> 00:39:07,760 it Project Stargate, And I'm like, what the hell is happening? 684 00:39:08,079 --> 00:39:11,719 Why are you calling it Project Stargate. It's like, I mean, 685 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,280 this is happening to us, like something is you know, 686 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,800 and everybody's talking about UFOs, and everybody's talking about these 687 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:19,679 unidentified things, and is it? 688 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:24,639 Speaker 4: And so we're right there, like we're right at the cusp. 689 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,519 Speaker 3: Of some of these things that we've been peaked that 690 00:39:27,519 --> 00:39:30,320 we've been seeing peak through culture now for the past 691 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:36,079 decade become absolutely unquestionable, like it's going to be at 692 00:39:36,079 --> 00:39:38,840 some point everybody is going to be thrown into this 693 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,360 perception of something more than what reason can account for. 694 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:44,360 Speaker 4: And how do we deal with it? 695 00:39:44,639 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure? 696 00:39:45,519 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 2: And I think, you know, there's a reason that Lewis 697 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:56,800 portrays the Fox sympathetically, because reason does play a function 698 00:39:57,599 --> 00:40:02,199 in protecting us from deception, right, And so I think 699 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,079 in the Until We Have Faces, we can look at 700 00:40:05,079 --> 00:40:10,760 the character of Psyche, who is a kind of idealized character. 701 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:12,880 She's kind of a saint. She we can just think 702 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,400 of her as as what a saint looks like in 703 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,400 her own context and as she So I love how 704 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:23,400 you're describing. You know, the newmanis the mythic just breaks 705 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:29,159 in and how do we respond? And and that you know, 706 00:40:29,199 --> 00:40:34,679 the demand of Psyche's sacrifice looks very demonic, looks very scary, 707 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,000 looks very much like a demonic story breaking in to 708 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,840 seize control of the world. Right, So how is it 709 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:47,719 that Psyche responds to it? And there's this chapter I 710 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:51,119 think at seven it's a conversation between Oral and Psyche 711 00:40:51,199 --> 00:40:57,000 the night before she's sacrificed, and Orwal's upset and just 712 00:40:57,159 --> 00:41:00,320 and just wanting to weep. And but Psyche is paring 713 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:05,039 herself as a saint, prepares themselves for martyrdom, right, and 714 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,360 that she's giving us an image of the martyrs. Well, 715 00:41:08,639 --> 00:41:11,880 I'm sure that when the martyrs were being thrown to 716 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,679 the lions that it felt like a demonic myth breaking 717 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:17,719 in and taking control of their world. 718 00:41:18,199 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 1: Right, how do they respond to it? 719 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,519 Speaker 2: And the way that Psyche responds is that she and 720 00:41:23,559 --> 00:41:26,840 this is that poly valant and it very much echoes 721 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:33,239 Saint my goodness, can't remember his name right now, Please 722 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:39,159 forgive me, ignacious Saint Ignacius, who who says what I'm 723 00:41:39,199 --> 00:41:43,320 afraid of is that you will you will or will 724 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:49,239 prevent me from being sacrificed because I desire God, and 725 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,719 by being offered to him is how. 726 00:41:51,519 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 1: I participate in his life. It is how I am 727 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:55,440 joined to my lover. 728 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,800 Speaker 2: It is how I become one with my bridegroom by 729 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:03,639 becoming the you know, the bread of Christ offered in 730 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:09,039 an anemnesis an imitation of my Lord. Let me participate 731 00:42:09,079 --> 00:42:11,760 in the story because from the way that you're looking 732 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,960 at again, to the pure, all things are pure, to 733 00:42:15,079 --> 00:42:18,079 the undefiled and believing nothing is pure right. And so 734 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,599 for oral and the people who see the demonic side, 735 00:42:21,639 --> 00:42:25,159 it's terror. But to the saints and those who see 736 00:42:25,199 --> 00:42:30,159 the divine side, it is an opportunity to participate right 737 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:34,159 in in the life of Christ for the life of 738 00:42:34,199 --> 00:42:36,880 the world. And so I think, you know, that story 739 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:43,239 is going to break in, but there's always a divine 740 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:47,119 side to the story that we can see and choose 741 00:42:47,159 --> 00:42:48,119 to participate in. 742 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, and or well, you know, there's this this scene 743 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:54,880 which I think it's it's probably one of the most 744 00:42:55,039 --> 00:42:57,719 obviously the most crucial scenes in the story, you know, 745 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,760 when her sister, when she sees her sister after the sacrifice, 746 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,960 you know, for the first time, and she she glimpses 747 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:09,480 the palace, right, she glimpses the God's palace, and then 748 00:43:09,559 --> 00:43:14,719 that's just a glimpse, and then she refuses the experience, 749 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,920 like she basically says, no, I'm going to stick with 750 00:43:19,119 --> 00:43:22,400 this just the reason part. And that's when you know, 751 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:26,920 she starts to in some ways embitter herself and become 752 00:43:27,159 --> 00:43:28,599 you know, and that's when she starts to wear she 753 00:43:28,639 --> 00:43:31,199 like literally wears like a veil over her face at 754 00:43:31,199 --> 00:43:33,480 some point, like it's even our to imagine it. The 755 00:43:33,599 --> 00:43:35,960 character in the story, like she's becomes kind of like 756 00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,320 the king figure, but she she's hiding herself behind this 757 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:43,679 this veil, you know. And and I think that again, 758 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,719 like in terms of this moment like that we're going 759 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:51,480 through it, it is also going to become dangerous for 760 00:43:51,599 --> 00:43:55,199 us to refuse what's happening, you know, and what's happening 761 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:59,360 right now is very dangerous. Like it's not there's nothing, 762 00:43:59,679 --> 00:44:01,320 there's no I think that's just good about it, Like 763 00:44:01,599 --> 00:44:06,000 there is We're in an extremely dangerous, crucial transformation of society. 764 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:11,159 But we also cannot simply pretend and think that we 765 00:44:11,199 --> 00:44:13,559 can hold on to the old world because the old 766 00:44:13,559 --> 00:44:14,559 world is going away. 767 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, And there's where I very much agree with Paul 768 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:26,440 Kingsnors that you know, the previous world has died, has ended, 769 00:44:27,039 --> 00:44:31,079 and I think that we're there are many points of 770 00:44:31,079 --> 00:44:36,440 participation in the formation of a new world, you know, 771 00:44:36,559 --> 00:44:41,159 personally in terms of as a homeschooler and homeschooling in 772 00:44:41,199 --> 00:44:45,440 the classical renewal, I feel like I've had the opportunity 773 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,280 to participate in the seeds of renewal, right, and the 774 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:53,679 preservation of the old story, in the preservation of functional 775 00:44:53,760 --> 00:45:01,519 family models. And so I think you're right, like this myth, this, this 776 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:03,880 the new menus has broken in, It has seized us. 777 00:45:04,519 --> 00:45:07,639 The old world is ending, the new world is being born. 778 00:45:08,519 --> 00:45:12,320 We have to choose what we will participate in. But 779 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:18,159 there are you know, seeds of there are arcs, there 780 00:45:18,199 --> 00:45:21,159 are there are seeds of renewal, seeds of a new 781 00:45:21,159 --> 00:45:26,159 world being born, arcs, temple arc spaces in which we 782 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:29,480 can participate in. Right, And so this is what Lewis 783 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:31,599 shows us. I think at the end of that hideous 784 00:45:31,599 --> 00:45:36,199 strength is okay, Well, when the world collapses, Uh, you 785 00:45:36,199 --> 00:45:39,760 know what do the faithful Christians do? Well, they gather 786 00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:43,039 around the table, They grow vegetables, they take care of 787 00:45:43,119 --> 00:45:46,639 their dogs, they have babies. Right, you do the same 788 00:45:46,679 --> 00:45:52,199 thing you've always done, which was faithfully participate in in 789 00:45:52,199 --> 00:45:54,239 in the thing that we've been called you know what 790 00:45:54,519 --> 00:45:56,840 is human. We faithfully participate what it means to be human. 791 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,280 And you know, one other polyvalency that I want to 792 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,519 point out since I brought up that hideous strength, is 793 00:46:04,559 --> 00:46:07,440 that it's really interesting at the end of that hideous strength. 794 00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:08,679 Speaker 1: It's the end of a world. 795 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,480 Speaker 2: Right, It's an image of the collapse of modernity and 796 00:46:12,519 --> 00:46:14,440 the techno bureaucracy and the machine. 797 00:46:14,559 --> 00:46:14,760 Speaker 1: Right. 798 00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:19,199 Speaker 2: And what you have, as Bellbury is it's you have 799 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,320 two banquets, and this is part of that polyvalency. 800 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:22,599 Speaker 1: Right. 801 00:46:22,639 --> 00:46:28,039 Speaker 2: So the banquet that we see in Revelation, this feast 802 00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:31,920 that happens at the consummation of a world, let's say, 803 00:46:32,679 --> 00:46:37,480 is destruction for the enemies of God, but a banquet 804 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,559 for the people of God. Right, And that you have 805 00:46:40,599 --> 00:46:44,480 that double vision and Revelation where Christ comes with. 806 00:46:44,599 --> 00:46:48,239 Speaker 1: The feast of the lamb. 807 00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:52,119 Speaker 2: And yet and I think it's Revelation either nineteen or 808 00:46:52,119 --> 00:46:55,719 twenty one, it's the wine press is the trampling of 809 00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:56,840 the enemies of God. 810 00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:01,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, But like you said, there is this 811 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:06,599 duality of it also being the consumption and the marriage, 812 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,440 you know, of the of the bridegroom and the bride, 813 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:15,639 you know, and that is definitely as present until we 814 00:47:15,679 --> 00:47:18,039 have faces that that duality is there. 815 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:19,800 Speaker 4: All through all through the book. 816 00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:23,199 Speaker 3: And so you know, I, you know, I I'm really 817 00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:25,679 happy that that you're doing this, Like I'm really happy 818 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,199 that it seems like this is the right time, you know, 819 00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:30,320 for people to dive into this story. 820 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:30,719 Speaker 4: Folks. 821 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,960 Speaker 3: If you haven't read the book, now's now's the time 822 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:37,719 to read it. It is definitely, it is definitely uh 823 00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:41,960 something that speaks clear It's not clearly, but speaks very 824 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:46,000 profoundly to our moment. And I'm really happy that you're 825 00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:49,440 that you're doing this class for us. So there's still 826 00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:51,119 time to catch up, folks. I think there's only two 827 00:47:51,159 --> 00:47:54,119 classes that have started. You can watch the first ones 828 00:47:54,119 --> 00:47:56,800 and then jump in live with any uh and the people. 829 00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,960 And I think you're doing this very interactive in my understanding. 830 00:48:00,639 --> 00:48:02,639 Speaker 1: Yes, so, and we've only had one class. 831 00:48:02,679 --> 00:48:07,960 Speaker 2: Well, although by the time yeah, and then we're having 832 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,559 a week off, we're gonna have two more classes in February. 833 00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:12,280 Speaker 1: So yeah, if you want to join, jump in. 834 00:48:12,559 --> 00:48:15,440 Speaker 2: The recordings for all of the Symbolic World classes are 835 00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:18,800 always available for people to come in watch those recordings 836 00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:21,440 on their own time participate, you know, go look at 837 00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:25,079 the discussions on the forums. I'm providing quite a few 838 00:48:25,119 --> 00:48:31,599 supplementary resources essays from Lewis and other scholars to walk 839 00:48:31,639 --> 00:48:34,880 you through a story that really it does not speak clearly, 840 00:48:35,559 --> 00:48:38,360 but I think that is exactly why it's important for 841 00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,039 this moment is because we are having we are being 842 00:48:41,159 --> 00:48:45,719 pushed to move past leaning on our own clear understanding 843 00:48:46,159 --> 00:48:50,400 and learning to trust in participatory ways of knowing right 844 00:48:50,519 --> 00:48:54,880 through the Great story through you say, go to church 845 00:48:55,800 --> 00:49:00,360 to participate in a reality that is, you know, greater 846 00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:03,760 than your own understanding, and then that reality can carry 847 00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:07,760 you when you go through these seasons you know that 848 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:09,960 that are that are harder than what you can control. 849 00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:15,400 Speaker 4: You know, I'm curious. It's so interesting C. S. Lewis. 850 00:49:15,559 --> 00:49:17,159 Speaker 3: The more that I think about him, the more that 851 00:49:17,199 --> 00:49:20,480 I meditate on him, it seems like he really is 852 00:49:20,599 --> 00:49:23,679 a prophetic figure, you know, because some of his insights, 853 00:49:24,119 --> 00:49:26,519 he was seeing something that really was just in the 854 00:49:26,599 --> 00:49:29,599 germ there was really still very seed like you know, 855 00:49:29,639 --> 00:49:34,039 that hideous strength, although there was already you know, you 856 00:49:34,119 --> 00:49:37,280 can sense already after World War Two that there that 857 00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:40,519 there were these seeds of things happening. But you know, 858 00:49:40,519 --> 00:49:42,519 when you read it today, you feel like, my goodness, 859 00:49:42,519 --> 00:49:44,440 like this could have you know, except for like the 860 00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,440 technical details, some of the descriptions of the technical way 861 00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:51,719 they do things that it's talking exactly about our age 862 00:49:52,039 --> 00:49:54,840 and so so he definitely is a profit and in 863 00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:57,920 some ways a precursor for a lot of the things 864 00:49:57,920 --> 00:49:59,559 that we talk about in SIBAC World, a lot of 865 00:49:59,599 --> 00:50:02,559 the things that Martinshaw talks about, or Paul kings North 866 00:50:02,639 --> 00:50:04,960 and all these people that are kind of appearing on 867 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:06,880 the scene right now, and even in a weird way 868 00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:10,360 for what Jordan Peterson is doing as well. Strangely enough, 869 00:50:12,039 --> 00:50:15,639 although Jordan's sometimes he has a love of the he 870 00:50:15,679 --> 00:50:17,400 has a bit of a love of the machine that 871 00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:20,920 that that we're still we're still figuring out. And so 872 00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,840 everybody go go to symbolic world dot com. Uh you 873 00:50:25,199 --> 00:50:27,920 members of the symbolic world dot com get also a 874 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:31,000 discount on the courses. You can find that out as 875 00:50:31,039 --> 00:50:33,079 you go on the website and you can find Annie's 876 00:50:33,079 --> 00:50:36,960 class and jump in. It's definitely worth it. And so Annie, 877 00:50:37,079 --> 00:50:38,960 thanks for everything you do. And I can't wait to 878 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,039 see what the next what the next class that you 879 00:50:42,159 --> 00:50:45,400 think is worth our time in the future. 880 00:50:45,599 --> 00:50:47,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks Jonathan, I appreciate the opportunity