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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker DTK.
Speaker 5: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 5: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 5: your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 6: Good Evening. A family of three tied up, each with
Speaker 6: a gun to their head. Where's the money? Where's the
Speaker 6: flip and money? The intruders yelled. A petrified daughter, tortured
Speaker 6: and forced to listen to her parents being shot in
Speaker 6: cold blood. I heard shots like pop, she told the
Speaker 6: nine one one operator. Somebody's broke into our home. Please,
Speaker 6: I need help. Was this a home invasion or something
Speaker 6: else more sinister? A deadly betrayal. The real life horror
Speaker 6: story that happened inside the Pan family home shocked their
Speaker 6: normally peaceful, upscale Toronto neighborhood. The Pans were an example
Speaker 6: of an immigrant family. Hann and his wife, Big Pan,
Speaker 6: fled from Vietnam to Canada after the US Vietnamese War
Speaker 6: to find a better life. Their daughter, Jennifer, was an
Speaker 6: Olympic caliber figure skater, award winning pianist, and a straight
Speaker 6: A student. The Pans worked their way up in the
Speaker 6: rags to riches story now living in a beautiful home
Speaker 6: with luxury cars in the driveway. Was it these expensive
Speaker 6: items that lured three and intruders with guns into their
Speaker 6: home on the night of November eighth to tenty ten.
Speaker 6: Find out what really happened when season true crime reporter
Speaker 6: and author Alan R. Warren takes you through the details
Speaker 6: as I unfold in this book of a deadly betrayal.
Speaker 6: Book we're featuring this s evening is Deadly Betrayal, the
Speaker 6: true story of Jennifer Pan Daughter from Hell, with my
Speaker 6: special guest, journalist and author and podcaster Alan R. Warren.
Speaker 6: Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much
Speaker 6: for agreeing to this interview. Alan R. Warren.
Speaker 7: Oh, thanks for having me.
Speaker 4: It's always a pleasure.
Speaker 6: Thank you. It's always a pleasure to have you and
Speaker 6: the prolific Alan R. Warren. Let's get right to this.
Speaker 6: How did you come into position? Why did you pick
Speaker 6: this story, Deadly Betrayal? What was it about this just
Speaker 6: from looking at it initially that intrigued you and made
Speaker 6: you want to write a book Deadly Betrayal?
Speaker 7: I I you know, it was just about the the
Speaker 7: amount of lies that she had told to her parents
Speaker 7: that intrigued me and how she got away with it
Speaker 7: for years and years, and so that brought me into
Speaker 7: the case. And I worked on it for quite a
Speaker 7: while actually, and then left it for a while and
Speaker 7: came back to it. It sort of kept bugging me.
Speaker 7: There were so many different details I wanted to know
Speaker 7: more about, so, you know, it just sort of kept
Speaker 7: drawing me in.
Speaker 6: Now you talk about and if I got these pronunciations.
Speaker 6: I just pronounced Jennifer's mother's name, and if it's wrong,
Speaker 6: let me know the Vietnamese names, and I might get
Speaker 6: the pronunciation wrong. But you talk about Huey Hanpan. Her
Speaker 6: father was born and educated in Vietnam during the war
Speaker 6: with the US, and in college he took tuel and
Speaker 6: die and diesel mechanics. And then he also met when
Speaker 6: he came to Scarborough suburb of Toronto for those people
Speaker 6: who don't know, in nineteen seventy nine, do you say,
Speaker 6: or seventy four, and he spoke no English and he
Speaker 6: had no money, and then he met his wife. So
Speaker 6: take it from there where he meets his wife and
Speaker 6: where they end up working, and tell us a little
Speaker 6: bit about their family. And the addition of Jennifer tell
Speaker 6: us a little bit about who they were and their
Speaker 6: life in just in a suburb of Toronto.
Speaker 7: Well, who hadntn came from You were right. He was
Speaker 7: studied in Vietnam and you know, they both did, and
Speaker 7: they had met once before, but there was no relationship
Speaker 7: between them, and he chose to come to Scarborough as
Speaker 7: that was one of the places they were relocating. This
Speaker 7: was kind of an exodus from Vietnam. I don't know
Speaker 7: if people realize.
Speaker 4: Because there was probably two.
Speaker 7: Million people in all that had to flee from Vietnam
Speaker 7: after the war, and Canada took you know, I think
Speaker 7: in total ended up being close to three hundred thousand eventually.
Speaker 7: And so he went to where he was sent basically,
Speaker 7: and so did she, and they had met up and
Speaker 7: it didn't take long before they you know, maybe because
Speaker 7: they were isolated within their own little section of town
Speaker 7: and speaking their own language and kind of being refugees,
Speaker 7: but they got really close really fast. And Beak, which
Speaker 7: was who became his wife, it came from Vietnam as well,
Speaker 7: and they both got a job in a manufacturing for
Speaker 7: car parts and it was Magna International, and actually she
Speaker 7: was on the assembly line so she was working an
Speaker 7: assembly line with the parts. He he had a little
Speaker 7: bit more education, was moved further into the company than
Speaker 7: she did.
Speaker 6: You talk about, Uh, their life was modest, that the
Speaker 6: wages weren't very good and probably was expensive to live
Speaker 6: anywhere in Toronto, regardless of what year you're talking about.
Speaker 6: But they soon had children. They and Jennifer was born
Speaker 6: June of eighty six and later and eighty nine her
Speaker 6: she had a brother named Felix. So those are two siblings.
Speaker 6: Tell me about what basically what they were able to
Speaker 6: do despite these wages and and really what was the philosophy,
Speaker 6: How did the household get run? Who was the boss
Speaker 6: and how what was the attitude and environment like in
Speaker 6: which Jennifer grew up in.
Speaker 7: Well, definitely the father was the boss and was very
Speaker 7: I don't want to say the word controlling, but it
Speaker 7: was very structured and it was structured to the way
Speaker 7: of the whole family had to work to achieve something,
Speaker 7: and his priority was to have his first born achieved
Speaker 7: the most. And they wanted the life to go further
Speaker 7: and further. So they want their kids to perform and
Speaker 7: have a better opportunity than what they did and it
Speaker 7: was very concerning. So every dollar they made they kept.
Speaker 7: They spent nothing on anything frivolous. Everything was essential and
Speaker 7: that was it, and that's how they lived. And even
Speaker 7: after having the two kids and both working full time,
Speaker 7: it didn't take them long to move up into a
Speaker 7: better neighborhood and a nicer home and actually cars that
Speaker 7: were respectable. You know, the respectability of working hard and
Speaker 7: making enough money to have a decent life was very important.
Speaker 7: And there's some analysis on them the parents as being
Speaker 7: tiger parents in the fact that everything had to be
Speaker 7: laid out, structured, and you spent every waking hour to achieve.
Speaker 4: So there was no.
Speaker 7: It wasn't They didn't have a relaxing social atmosphere that
Speaker 7: a lot of traditional Canadian families would.
Speaker 4: It just didn't go on.
Speaker 6: You talk about Jennifer's early interests, well, that they directed
Speaker 6: her too. You also say that with the interests that
Speaker 6: she had basically were simulated or i thought of by
Speaker 6: her father. So the piano lessons and figure skating, and
Speaker 6: she excelled in both, you say, and that she also
Speaker 6: did an ancient martial art called swimming, but not like
Speaker 6: we would think. But right away before we're talking about
Speaker 6: elementary school, not anywhere later than this, We're talking before
Speaker 6: grade eight. She already had some anxiety about performance and
Speaker 6: either whether a sport or academic performance. Didn't she Yeah, And.
Speaker 7: To be a little more specific, her dad wanted her
Speaker 7: to only be in competitions where she would win an
Speaker 7: award for her performance. He didn't want her in anything
Speaker 7: of a group setting. There isn't group sports or no
Speaker 7: team of anything. Everything was individually granted. So if it
Speaker 7: was something like swimming, she could win, skating she can win,
Speaker 7: She can be honored for herself, just as in her schooling,
Speaker 7: and he wanted her to have an all around I
Speaker 7: guess education in everything that he could. There was time
Speaker 7: to do everything, and she felt very overwhelmed. And there's
Speaker 7: a couple of aspects to that. One big thing was
Speaker 7: not only the pressure from the parents and what family
Speaker 7: they did have there, but in the Canadian social climate.
Speaker 7: She felt very isolated for the young years and was
Speaker 7: not close to other people. And I think at first
Speaker 7: she felt the pressure to achieve really well was the
Speaker 7: only way she could kind of, I don't know, make
Speaker 7: friends or become popular or become worthwhile maybe. And so
Speaker 7: there was a lot of pressure on her, and she
Speaker 7: didn't have anybody really to talk to, and in that
Speaker 7: same sort of nobody else was going through this in
Speaker 7: that community.
Speaker 6: You talked about her feeling much different and again isolated
Speaker 6: because had a policy if her father had a policy
Speaker 6: or parents had a policy of her not wearing makeup,
Speaker 6: So she wasn't interested or focused on the things that
Speaker 6: maybe girls would at a certain age in that age
Speaker 6: would be hair and makeup and clothing and status, and
Speaker 6: so she didn't have that. So she also didn't partake
Speaker 6: in birthday parties or sleepovers, so it was really sort
Speaker 6: of understanding that's quite unusual. And her brother yet, because
Speaker 6: he wasn't the first born, it was a little more relaxed,
Speaker 6: and so she felt unusual pressure. And then you talk
Speaker 6: about that by grade eight, when she doesn't win the event,
Speaker 6: get the valedatorian at graduation and she didn't get any awards,
Speaker 6: she really felt like a failure. And you talk about
Speaker 6: soon after she's using her skills to fool her father
Speaker 6: about her school grades.
Speaker 7: Tell us about that, Yeah, yeah, she started when she
Speaker 7: didn't achieve that, she felt like she really disappointed her father.
Speaker 7: And what happened in cases like that is, he got
Speaker 7: harder on her, He got tougher on her, so things
Speaker 7: were not going to get easier. She had to work harder,
Speaker 7: you know, no matter what. And so to take the
Speaker 7: pressure off, I guess she decided it to start making
Speaker 7: her grades look better than they were. So, you know,
Speaker 7: with a photocopier and with white out and a few
Speaker 7: other key elements, she started faking report cards and giving
Speaker 7: them to her parents, you know.
Speaker 4: Because she started to drop to c's.
Speaker 7: You know, C plus and stuff like that in school.
Speaker 7: And if that was not good enough, he wanted a's.
Speaker 7: So she would give herself a's and she would hand
Speaker 7: it to him. And the very first time, I guess
Speaker 7: she was pretty terrified waiting for his response, and he
Speaker 7: fell for it. He believed it, and he was pleased
Speaker 7: with the grades, you know. And I have to mention
Speaker 7: with her brother, Felix, being younger, she also had the
Speaker 7: pressure of when he was failing, it was her responsibility
Speaker 7: to help him.
Speaker 4: Achieve what he needed to.
Speaker 7: So the father would not look at Felix, he would
Speaker 7: look at her, what can you do to make him better?
Speaker 7: It was almost like it was her job to only
Speaker 7: give herself top marks. And performances, but to make sure
Speaker 7: he did as well, and he was not. He was
Speaker 7: not really that goal orientated, so you sort of have
Speaker 7: this him not really caring so much and her being
Speaker 7: under the pressure.
Speaker 4: To get his act together.
Speaker 7: It was sort of an unusual situation, and I think
Speaker 7: it was really even harder on her. So again, whether
Speaker 7: it was to take the pressure off of her by
Speaker 7: lying about her grades or not, I'm not sure what
Speaker 7: drew her to that.
Speaker 6: She meets while she's in school someone that's important to
Speaker 6: this story, and I'll let you take the last name
Speaker 6: then pronounce it, but it's Adrian, and she meets in
Speaker 6: the music class, and so this Adrian is becomes important later.
Speaker 6: But she has a little bit of a change for
Speaker 6: this isolated person in school that she has an affinity
Speaker 6: because she say, she's quite a good piano player and
Speaker 6: the musician. So she does find some friendship and connection
Speaker 6: with people via this music lass. Don G.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, what they If you've never been into the
Speaker 7: music arts department, quite often there's this a foyer and
Speaker 7: it's meant for people in music and meant for people
Speaker 7: in theater, and it's kind of a place where people
Speaker 7: would practice their craft or work on their homework, and
Speaker 7: so it was all art students. And for some reason
Speaker 7: she started hanging there because she felt a little bit
Speaker 7: safer there. And I guess she felt less judged because
Speaker 7: she was always wearing a sweater and no makeup and
Speaker 7: was very you know, dressed down. She wasn't anything dressed up.
Speaker 4: She was no.
Speaker 7: Popular kids, so but she felt she could sit in
Speaker 7: the foyer and hang out. And she started becoming friends
Speaker 7: with a few people in there, and yeah, one was
Speaker 7: Adrian and Tim Keats, and they they kind of had
Speaker 7: a hit it off really well, and almost we call
Speaker 7: it dating. It's kind of on the edge. There's a
Speaker 7: lot of different stories about their relationship in the first
Speaker 7: first year, and I kind of take it that they
Speaker 7: were almost best friends but not, you know, I want
Speaker 7: to say dating, and that's sort of how it's presented.
Speaker 7: But I get a feeling that on her point, it
Speaker 7: was never going to be a dating relationship, right, you know.
Speaker 6: Now you talk about it, Sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 7: No, I was going to say it was just he
Speaker 7: seemed to like her better than she liked him, as
Speaker 7: in right, wanting to go further in the situation.
Speaker 6: The thing is, though, what was important was that he
Speaker 6: did get a chance to meet her parents, and her
Speaker 6: parents liked him. He seemed to be a good student,
Speaker 6: and he wanted to be an engineer, and he had
Speaker 6: his own car, and he seemed to be welcome at
Speaker 6: the Pan home. And you said, but despite this, like
Speaker 6: you say, maybe the attention wasn't the same. She wasn't
Speaker 6: as interested as he was. And within six months she
Speaker 6: had met a new boy who was also a musician
Speaker 6: and met in the band room as well, Daniel Wong.
Speaker 6: So tell us about their early relationship and why this
Speaker 6: relationship was and his background, his ethnic background. I think
Speaker 6: it's important, and why they kept this relationship secret in
Speaker 6: the beginning.
Speaker 7: Yeah, Daniel Wong was in there as well, but he
Speaker 7: was more of the character. He was the guy that
Speaker 7: was always playing jokes, always laughing and loud and always
Speaker 7: fooling around. And he was just the joker. And she
Speaker 7: never took him serious and never paid attention to him.
Speaker 4: And it was.
Speaker 7: When they went on the field trip the band to
Speaker 7: Austria to Salzburg that on one of their band trips,
Speaker 7: she had an asthma attack and he had kind of
Speaker 7: come to her rescue and held her and helped her
Speaker 7: breathe and all this, and paid an incredible amount of
Speaker 7: attention to her and her not having any sort of
Speaker 7: attention in her life up to them, not like this,
Speaker 7: not careful attention that she sort of felt for him
Speaker 7: almost immediately. She thought he was just an amazing, caring
Speaker 7: person and she started thinking about him all the time,
Speaker 7: dreaming about him. And it didn't take long when they
Speaker 7: got back home before she started seeing him and dating him,
Speaker 7: becoming to you know, his his girlfriend. But that that
Speaker 7: didn't it didn't go well when she brought him home.
Speaker 7: The parents didn't like him at all, you know, and
Speaker 7: there was different reasons for that.
Speaker 4: One was his.
Speaker 7: Heritage being mixed Chinese and Philippine, which her father thought
Speaker 7: they were a servant class and they were not in
Speaker 7: the same position as they asked the pans would be,
Speaker 7: so he didn't like that. He also didn't like that
Speaker 7: the boy was not respectful, he didn't have a good job,
Speaker 7: and originally he wasn't supposed to be known, but Daniel
Speaker 7: Wong had been arrested for selling pot and so he
Speaker 7: had a record. And later we found out that Felix,
Speaker 7: Jennifer's brother had told their father this, So that was
Speaker 7: another thing that her father knew, even though they you know,
Speaker 7: Jennifer Daniel didn't know this. They just didn't know why.
Speaker 7: The father was just so rude to them and to
Speaker 7: him and didn't want him around the house anymore. So
Speaker 7: that became where they had to keep it a secret then,
Speaker 7: because you know, the dad was not going to accept him.
Speaker 6: So she begins she's already doing lying to her parents
Speaker 6: about her and forging her report cards. Now we're talking
Speaker 6: about her getting up to the age where she can
Speaker 6: go to college and also this relationship. Like you said,
Speaker 6: she he does get to meet the parents and they
Speaker 6: are definitely said to her, you're not to see this guy.
Speaker 6: We don't want you to see this guy. It wasn't
Speaker 6: a suggestion, it was a basic at demand of her.
Speaker 6: So how does she go about working around that? And
Speaker 6: you talk about also that they get separated a little bit,
Speaker 6: So how do wear school grades? In actuality? Never mind
Speaker 6: what she does and gives to her father? What are
Speaker 6: her grades like during this time?
Speaker 7: Oh, they couldn't well, they could get worse, but not much.
Speaker 7: They were really she was failing classes. Now, see what's
Speaker 7: kind of the highest marks you would get and she
Speaker 7: was not going to graduate, so the school said, you're
Speaker 7: not going to graduate, so she made a fake report
Speaker 7: card again, she also made a fake diploma, and also
Speaker 7: she even faked her graduation and even the pictures and
Speaker 7: the whole, the whole nine yards, she just pulled the
Speaker 7: whole wole over her parents' eyes, like she told she,
Speaker 7: they believed she had graduated and she went to grad
Speaker 7: and the whole works, so in their mind that she's
Speaker 7: doing great, even though she hadn't. And she, in her defense,
Speaker 7: said that she was going to go back and graduate,
Speaker 7: take courses and finish school. She just would do it
Speaker 7: later and not tell her parents so they wouldn't know,
Speaker 7: So she was justifying it that way. And then she
Speaker 7: even said that she got in at.
Speaker 4: The UFT.
Speaker 7: University of Toronto and she hadn't because she hadn't even graduated.
Speaker 7: And she started to go five days a week, and
Speaker 7: even at times quite often her mother would drive her
Speaker 7: so and she would just sit in the library and
Speaker 7: she would just study, and in fact a lot of
Speaker 7: times she would write out all of these things that
Speaker 7: reports that she said that she had got from her professors,
Speaker 7: like she's attending so she was doing tons of work
Speaker 7: to show her parents that she was attending, but she
Speaker 7: was just in the library. And this is kind of
Speaker 7: where she started staying at Daniel's place because then she
Speaker 7: said to her mother, look is too much driving all
Speaker 7: this way back and forth five days a week. She
Speaker 7: wanted to stay with her girlfriends who had an apartment
Speaker 7: by the university.
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Speaker 7: And what she would really be doing is staying at
Speaker 7: Daniel Wong's place for those nights, and they were keeping
Speaker 7: it secret. So that's how much she was so involved
Speaker 7: in lying and covering up. It just kept getting worse
Speaker 7: and worse, and she had more and more lies.
Speaker 4: It just I guess it.
Speaker 7: Really she went too far, it got out of control.
Speaker 6: Well, her mother sees her one time with Daniel again
Speaker 6: and freaks out and says, I can't just keep this
Speaker 6: from your father. So they make a further demand. I mean,
Speaker 6: I talked about a demand, but there are demands and demands,
Speaker 6: so tell us about this exchange and the result.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, So yeah, when she saw them, she actually
Speaker 7: called the girlfriend that's supposed to be have the apartment,
Speaker 7: and she realized that she'd been lying that you know,
Speaker 7: this whole time, and so she did go home and
Speaker 7: tell her husband. So, you know, when she came back,
Speaker 7: the father had grounded her, taken away her car, her phone,
Speaker 7: all computer access. He just like closed everything down on her.
Speaker 7: And she guaranteed she would never speak to Daniel Wong
Speaker 7: again and never see him again. And it was a
Speaker 7: mistake and she didn't mean to and just that whole thing,
Speaker 7: and he accepted it, but it was going to become
Speaker 7: very strict. Anytime she had taken the car or gone anywhere.
Speaker 4: He wanted to see the mileage.
Speaker 7: He wanted to watch everything she did.
Speaker 4: It all had to be tracked.
Speaker 7: There was no more relying on her to tell him things.
Speaker 7: So that was the first breakdown between the two, a big,
Speaker 7: major breakdown. But she still pretended to attend university and
Speaker 7: in fact even graduated from university and give him a
Speaker 7: diploma stating that she had graduated and she hadn't. And
Speaker 7: then she even faked a job that she had got
Speaker 7: in a children's hospital, And so she just kept answering
Speaker 7: with lies and more cover up. You know, she never
Speaker 7: really told him the truth.
Speaker 4: She would have a lie for him.
Speaker 6: The thing is, they get to the point where she's
Speaker 6: telling them she works at Walmart, but they're suspicious and
Speaker 6: they're asking for her for a paste up, so she
Speaker 6: takes and the right and they're giving her a ride
Speaker 6: there and they're hanging around and she hangs around in
Speaker 6: another department till they leave, so they're suspicious. And then
Speaker 6: she because she tells these half truths. Even when she
Speaker 6: admits everything, it's only half of the admission. And the
Speaker 6: even worst part is that she has to tell him
Speaker 6: while I wasn't here, I didn't go to Ryerson. She
Speaker 6: doesn't tell him at any point that she still didn't graduate.
Speaker 6: So there's lots of lies left that he still doesn't
Speaker 6: seem to know. But as the more he does, he
Speaker 6: just seems, I cannot trust this girl whatsoever?
Speaker 4: Does he?
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Because that first job at the children's
Speaker 7: hospital is when they found out she wasn't working there.
Speaker 7: That when she said she got the job at Walmart
Speaker 7: in the pharmacy, the father started getting suspicious on that
Speaker 7: one because she didn't have any She wasn't going to
Speaker 7: work in work clothes, you know, she would just leave
Speaker 7: and not be dressed up for work, and she didn't
Speaker 7: have a sign in card and she didn't.
Speaker 4: Have she just didn't.
Speaker 7: He just didn't trust that that's what she was doing.
Speaker 7: So that's why they were starting to watch her when
Speaker 7: she'd go to work and trying to see if that's
Speaker 7: what she was doing. So then he started asking for
Speaker 7: the pay stubs, and she actually faked the pay stubs
Speaker 7: at first and got away with it. But what happened
Speaker 7: was then he wanted to look at her bank account
Speaker 7: to see if the money was being deposited by the
Speaker 7: job by Walmart. So he when he started going that way,
Speaker 7: she couldn't. She couldn't fake that, she couldn't lie about that,
Speaker 7: and so she would have to come clean and tell him.
Speaker 7: It's the famous That's when she tells him about the university.
Speaker 7: So that's when he got down to the biggest demand
Speaker 7: of you're going to do nothing but you know, study
Speaker 7: and get your schooling and get a real job. And
Speaker 7: it just it just wasn't you know, it wasn't going
Speaker 7: to happen. She was just going to keep on lying
Speaker 7: and faking her way through.
Speaker 6: He did force her to write a farewell letter to Daniel,
Speaker 6: I guess online while he watched. So then he again
Speaker 6: she had to apply to college as a lab tech.
Speaker 6: She took it. He always wanted her to be a doctor.
Speaker 6: She had no car, stay home, like you say, go
Speaker 6: to school, and that relationship became distant and she found
Speaker 6: out he had another girlfriend. And then she start going out,
Speaker 6: didn't she and pumped into one of her old friends
Speaker 6: from school. So what's her what's her behavior like now?
Speaker 6: And who does she meet and what does she start
Speaker 6: talking about?
Speaker 7: Well, you know, see, her behavior was kind of a
Speaker 7: little bit sketchy because you know, she found out about
Speaker 7: Daniel dating this other girl, I believe it was Kimberly,
Speaker 7: and so she was pretty upset about this. And this
Speaker 7: is when I've alluded to it, but there's there's no
Speaker 7: evidence of this. But he started getting you know, texts
Speaker 7: and phone calls, and so did this Kimberly that were
Speaker 7: kind of off a little you know, threats. Most of
Speaker 7: the threats were going to were toward her herself, as in,
Speaker 7: Jennifer is going to get you know, something's going to
Speaker 7: happen to her and really off cuugh phone calls and
Speaker 7: you can guess it somehow related to her, you know.
Speaker 7: And so she yeah, she actually met Hank started hanging
Speaker 7: out in the pool hall where Daniel was selling drugs
Speaker 7: and she tried to to watch him and keep an
Speaker 7: eye on see what he was doing and almost like stalking.
Speaker 7: And yeah, she had met a friend. And and the
Speaker 7: big thing with the friend was she ended up getting
Speaker 7: referred to his roommate, whose name was Rick. And the
Speaker 7: reason was was because she wanted to hire someone to
Speaker 7: kill her parents. And Rick said he could, he could
Speaker 7: fix her up and and take care of it. And
Speaker 7: he and he met with her a couple of times,
Speaker 7: and once was at a coffee shop and and the
Speaker 7: reason I say that it was because there was witnesses
Speaker 7: to it and it was important. She actually gave him
Speaker 7: money and kind of made the deal, but Rick had
Speaker 7: no intention of following through, so he never followed through.
Speaker 7: He never made He took her money and then ignored
Speaker 7: her and then moved so she couldn't find him for
Speaker 7: a while. So so in a way she kind of
Speaker 7: got ripped off and that that that really, uh, that
Speaker 7: really really bothered her.
Speaker 6: So she does what regarding Daniel and you talked about
Speaker 6: these calls that they were all experiencing too, if and
Speaker 6: what did some of the messages contain in terms of
Speaker 6: what they're trying to convey to the people on the phone. Well,
Speaker 6: it seemed like a lot.
Speaker 7: Of the messages were aimed at Jennifer wasn't going to
Speaker 7: get hurt or Kimberly the new girlfriend are. They were
Speaker 7: kind of rude, a lot of them. I said, why
Speaker 7: would you go to a movie with her? Or why
Speaker 7: would you do that with her? They were all it
Speaker 7: was all about the three of them, all the conversations,
Speaker 7: all the threats and all the rude sort of stuff.
Speaker 7: And it started getting pretty extreme too. There was times
Speaker 7: when it would there would be a maang and you
Speaker 7: know she's going to die and bang and there's really
Speaker 7: weird stuff. And that sort of surprised me that he
Speaker 7: never took it more serious. I mean, like he never
Speaker 7: called the cops or he never he never got took
Speaker 7: it any further than just them, if you know what
Speaker 7: I'm saying. So that kind of bothers me in the
Speaker 7: sense of, you know, because if you're getting calls about
Speaker 7: your ex girlfriend or about your new girlfriend, or about
Speaker 7: you and about murdering and dying and killing and really
Speaker 7: rude things going on for the three of you, you
Speaker 7: know it's somebody involved. It's one of you three somebody
Speaker 7: something's going on. And if he was really feeling it
Speaker 7: was threatening a real like he suggested later, I would
Speaker 7: think he would have gone to the cops.
Speaker 6: But you're saying that maybe this is this is maybe
Speaker 6: something he came to in terms of just for purposes later.
Speaker 7: I think there was more to it. I think what
Speaker 7: was happening was there was more to their conversations. I
Speaker 7: don't think she was just calling and hanging up and
Speaker 7: calling and threatening. I think she was calling him and
Speaker 7: he was knowing it was her and then she would
Speaker 7: give him the speel and they would fight. And I
Speaker 7: think it was his way of staying in contact with
Speaker 7: her because that was the only time he could be
Speaker 7: in contact with her. There was more That relationship is
Speaker 7: much more complex than it seems, because he didn't act
Speaker 7: like a person that was being stalked or being threatened,
Speaker 7: or having his girlfriend threatened or X or an. He
Speaker 7: didn't act like that. He just would keep up the
Speaker 7: conversations and he would and when he talked about them
Speaker 7: later to the police, they would almost sounded like he
Speaker 7: tried to make it sound how scary it was and
Speaker 7: how he thought something was going to happen. Times even
Speaker 7: thought something did happen to Jennifer, but he never acted
Speaker 7: on it, So that that doesn't make sense because if
Speaker 7: he really thought that, he would have done something about it.
Speaker 6: You talk about now that she's spoken to someone else
Speaker 6: about her plans for murder, that she talks to Daniel
Speaker 6: now about this but has a change of plan from
Speaker 6: the original, and that means he doesn't want them shot,
Speaker 6: at least that's what she thinks might not be the
Speaker 6: best way to go. What do they talk about, what
Speaker 6: does she use for her justification why she tell Daniel
Speaker 6: obviously he knows what her parents are like, but tell
Speaker 6: us about that conversation she begins to have with Daniel.
Speaker 7: Well, she started, you know, they started getting closer again
Speaker 7: from these phone calls. That's what I mean. I think
Speaker 7: there's more to them, because all of a sudden they
Speaker 7: start seeing each other her again and meeting each other
Speaker 7: and then start becoming a couple again. And then then
Speaker 7: then she mentions about how she had talked to Rick
Speaker 7: and how he had ripped her off, and how she
Speaker 7: she she was never going to be free, and and
Speaker 7: at first she was playing the old she was she
Speaker 7: wanted to kill herself or she thought maybe, you know,
Speaker 7: she should die, and she was kind of trying to
Speaker 7: make him feel sorry. And then she started when she
Speaker 7: told him about the rip off plan and stuff, and
Speaker 7: then she started kind of grooming him in a way
Speaker 7: of of something happening to her, to her parents and so.
Speaker 4: She could be free.
Speaker 7: And then then she would get into the eventually groom
Speaker 7: him into hiring people to want to do this, you know,
Speaker 7: And she told she according to Daniel, she was telling
Speaker 7: him wild stories, you know, like things were people were
Speaker 7: following her around, and that a man tried to kidnap her,
Speaker 7: and and someone else had and then she even told
Speaker 7: him that a gang of Asian men.
Speaker 4: Or boys.
Speaker 7: Had raped her in her bedroom and had been waiting
Speaker 7: for her when she, you know, when she was out
Speaker 7: running for a dog and she came back and stuff
Speaker 7: like that, and she had to go to the hospital
Speaker 7: and the police were notified, and and she just had
Speaker 7: all these stories. But again, this is what we hear
Speaker 7: from Daniel after the fact, and it's written in there.
Speaker 4: But I have to.
Speaker 7: I have to say, I still don't know that I
Speaker 7: trust what how Daniel claims it to be, because again,
Speaker 7: he just did nothing like that just seems really weird
Speaker 7: to me. If your girlfriend calls you and tells you
Speaker 7: that she had to go to the hospital and she
Speaker 7: saw the police and she was raped in her bedroom
Speaker 7: by five gang members, wouldn't you be right there or
Speaker 7: wouldn't you be involved in it? He didn't act like
Speaker 7: it mattered, So I really question.
Speaker 4: That story.
Speaker 6: Does he act like maybe he doesn't believe it and
Speaker 6: she's used to lying, and so.
Speaker 7: She's used in lying. But you know, we have to
Speaker 7: take it two ways. Either she was you know, the
Speaker 7: weird phone calls when he was dating the other girl
Speaker 7: up to the weird happenings being followed and then eventually
Speaker 7: being raped and getting weird male and you know, and
Speaker 7: all this weird stuff she was going on. Either that
Speaker 7: was all true and he was totally shocked, but he
Speaker 7: just didn't care, or he just thought, yeah, that's just Jennifer.
Speaker 7: She lies all the time. But it still seems kind
Speaker 7: of I don't know, there's something strange about this relationship
Speaker 7: that I can't put a panel on because I still
Speaker 7: think with all of these lives getting so extreme, he
Speaker 7: would distance himself from someone like that. It wouldn't be
Speaker 7: getting closer, Like if he really thought she was lying
Speaker 7: about the rapes and all the things she'd come up
Speaker 7: with all these stories, he wouldn't be trying to get
Speaker 7: closer to her and be involved with her. I think
Speaker 7: he would want to distance himself. And if it was
Speaker 7: just a story, then it's just a story.
Speaker 6: So let's talk about the Faithful Evening, because there's different
Speaker 6: accounts of it. Because of course, as you will explain
Speaker 6: what's happening in the home, it's sell people in the
Speaker 6: different parts of the home. That evening tell us what
Speaker 6: happens that day, and then tell us what happens that
Speaker 6: evening where the family is we'll say around dinner time,
Speaker 6: and then go from there and then tell us what happens,
Speaker 6: and then we can see and you can tell us
Speaker 6: about how police are called later nine one one from
Speaker 6: Jennifer and then her account to police tell.
Speaker 7: Us, Yeah, well, the key thing that that in the
Speaker 7: evening was when Jennifer and her mother came home and
Speaker 7: we're planning dinner, and then her father came home from
Speaker 7: work then had to go to home depot, so the
Speaker 7: two of them ate dinner for the father. Basically, the
Speaker 7: father come home, would eat and then would go read
Speaker 7: this newspaper. At this time, they would clean up the dishes,
Speaker 7: and then Jennifer's mother went to her it was dance lessons.
Speaker 7: I think she was in some sort of dance class,
Speaker 7: so she took off to that, and so that was
Speaker 7: the basic premise of it. So the daughter's up in
Speaker 7: her room studying supposedly, father's down in the front room
Speaker 7: living room reading his paper, and mother's out at the
Speaker 7: class the dance school. So everything was going as normal.
Speaker 7: And then we do know that Jennifer had her friends
Speaker 7: a couple of friends come over and watch TV with
Speaker 7: her downstairs and then eventually leave. We hear different stories,
Speaker 7: but the key part to it is the mother comes home,
Speaker 7: I believe around nine nine thirty ish and soaks her
Speaker 7: feet out in the front room from after the class.
Speaker 7: And so from there we hear that's where it changes.
Speaker 7: You know, Jennifer apparently snuck downstairs unlocked the front door,
Speaker 7: went back upstairs, and they got the text later that
Speaker 7: they know they were communicating by text, and so the
Speaker 7: men just showed up and three hires plus.
Speaker 4: Her boyfriend.
Speaker 7: Daniel Wong, And so from there what happened exactly, we
Speaker 7: have different different accounts, and it would seem that the
Speaker 7: mother was forced upstairs to the father's room where they
Speaker 7: went in and they grabbed him, beat him, took some
Speaker 7: money from one of their drawers, took them downstairs, put
Speaker 7: them on their knees, and then Jennifer's her own claim
Speaker 7: was that they came down the hall to her room,
Speaker 7: grabbed her, had her get some of her money and
Speaker 7: that she had been saving and give to them, and
Speaker 7: then they tied her up and then they took her
Speaker 7: downstairs again and then asked her to find some more money,
Speaker 7: did a lot of swearing and screaming, and then took
Speaker 7: both parents down to the basement and shot them both
Speaker 7: in the head. And then they took her upstairs and
Speaker 7: tied her to the top rail on the stairstair the
Speaker 7: main landing, and then they left. So that's your general occurrences.
Speaker 7: I mean, there's more detail in the book, but that's
Speaker 7: the general idea. And then from there, Jennifer said she
Speaker 7: called the police on her cell phone, which was stuck
Speaker 7: in her back part of her sweatpants. She was wearing
Speaker 7: a pair of sweatpants and she had the phone stuck
Speaker 7: in the back. She called nine one to one and
Speaker 7: told them that they had a home invasion, and just
Speaker 7: actually while she was still on the phone, she all
Speaker 7: of a sudden hurt her father, and she even screamed
Speaker 7: at him, and he, instead of going to her or
Speaker 7: going up to make sure she was okay, just ran
Speaker 7: out the front door and went to the neighbors and
Speaker 7: was screaming.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 7: So that's kind of the basic premise, and what we
Speaker 7: found out later the father hadn't died, and he had
Speaker 7: actually seen Jennifer untied talking with the guys and moving
Speaker 7: around and he knew that they were working together, so
Speaker 7: that's why he never ran to his daughter.
Speaker 6: You've jumped ahead a little bit, quite a bit, but
Speaker 6: let's go back, because she says that she yelled at
Speaker 6: him and that he ran out the front, leaving her behind.
Speaker 6: She said she had a cell phone, and because she's
Speaker 6: on the phone with police, he is run next door.
Speaker 6: He's been shot in the face, he's been shot in
Speaker 6: the neck or there's bullet fragments in his face and
Speaker 6: the bullet in it lodged in his neck, and he's
Speaker 6: yelling and screaming. They'd rush him to hospital. His family
Speaker 6: surrounds him. The police, as you say, keep her away
Speaker 6: from the father, and right away have the first of
Speaker 6: many interviews. And I think just from the tone of
Speaker 6: how you present the interviews that the police immediately know
Speaker 6: right from getting her to repeat herself and in the
Speaker 6: accounting that there's something not exactly right. They're handling her
Speaker 6: with kids, love care, given the circumstances, but right away
Speaker 6: they are seeing inconsistencies and things that don't seem to
Speaker 6: make sense with her story, do they.
Speaker 7: Yeah, Well, she keeps every time she would talk about things,
Speaker 7: you know, like with the money it would be a
Speaker 7: different amount, and she would give different you know, just
Speaker 7: differences in the man approaching her with a rope and
Speaker 7: then all of a sudden he's coming down the hallway
Speaker 7: with a gun. She kept changing things, and the police
Speaker 7: were suspicious. And plus they were suspicious of the father
Speaker 7: leaving her and not you know, going, you know, just
Speaker 7: running right out, even though he knew she was alive
Speaker 7: and she was up there screaming. So they were on
Speaker 7: notice from the beginning and watching every little move, and
Speaker 7: she just had too many, way too many inconsistencies for
Speaker 7: them just to kind of go, you know, they just
Speaker 7: didn't believe her, and and that's sort of what that
Speaker 7: that's sort of what led to her demise really was
Speaker 7: all of the lies. And you know, they did get
Speaker 7: a lot of the cell phone records and copies, and
Speaker 7: it didn't take long to put it all together with
Speaker 7: the three people that were hired as along with her
Speaker 7: boyfriend Daniel. They didn't take long for the for the
Speaker 7: five of them to really get caught.
Speaker 6: Well, let's let's give her a little bit of credit,
Speaker 6: and let's give the police some credit as well, because,
Speaker 6: like I say, they're handling them and you put this
Speaker 6: in the book, is that they handle her and they
Speaker 6: let her go and they bring her back in and
Speaker 6: then they talk to the brother and they also realize
Speaker 6: that and not really give her this detail that it
Speaker 6: looks like a robbery, but they know that there's a Mercedes,
Speaker 6: there's a Lexus. Those aren't stolen. There's money still in
Speaker 6: the father's wallet. There is again those varying records of
Speaker 6: how much was stolen from her and where did she
Speaker 6: have her money was dubious origins. Anyway, there is a
Speaker 6: safe in plain view in the parents' room that nobody
Speaker 6: apparently asked for the combination. They were so desperate for money,
Speaker 6: she kept saying. They kept asking her, well, why wouldn't
Speaker 6: why didn't they hurt you? And she didn't really have
Speaker 6: an answer, and they also say, well what, But all
Speaker 6: she could say was, well, they said they said something
Speaker 6: about my parents not cooperating, and that I did cooperate.
Speaker 6: So right away this smells very bad. But they proceed
Speaker 6: very carefully and they have to get warrants, and as
Speaker 6: warrants they do get, they do get the the pinging
Speaker 6: for off the tower, so they know locations, and then
Speaker 6: they tell her that engage her reaction and then slowly
Speaker 6: tighten device on her. Don't they to get to the
Speaker 6: point where.
Speaker 7: You know that the cell phone too as well? You know,
Speaker 7: when they you know, her hands are tied up and
Speaker 7: she's supposed to pull the cell phone out, which stayed.
Speaker 7: She didn't have a pocket in her sweatpants, So after
Speaker 7: all that activity, how it would stay there? It's one thing.
Speaker 7: And the other thing is how she would reach it,
Speaker 7: and if she did, then how would she talk? And
Speaker 7: the other thing was how could she hear the nine
Speaker 7: one one operator? You know, there was just too many
Speaker 7: things right that made them totally suspicious.
Speaker 6: It's amazing you include that they asked her, but they
Speaker 6: also get her well, hey, listen, here's a replica phone.
Speaker 4: Show us how you did it.
Speaker 6: And so then things aren't looking so good. She realizes that,
Speaker 6: you know, despite her acting ability, that this is not
Speaker 6: working so good with these guys, is it.
Speaker 7: Yeah? And then I think the key to it was
Speaker 7: her father was in in a coma for the time,
Speaker 7: and then he came out of his coma, and I
Speaker 7: think that was the key because then of course he
Speaker 7: would tell the police.
Speaker 6: What he knew.
Speaker 7: And I think in her you know, she was nervous
Speaker 7: about it, and I think that sort of was the clinger,
Speaker 7: you know, you know, to have your own father come
Speaker 7: out of a coma and then testify against you. It's
Speaker 7: not looking good.
Speaker 6: So how does police tighten this again, this grip on
Speaker 6: her so that she does spit out that and they
Speaker 6: don't get it all at once because she's famous now
Speaker 6: in this story for not giving everything up, even when
Speaker 6: she says she's going to give everything up. So how
Speaker 6: do police proceed? How do they chip away? And what
Speaker 6: do they get with that chipping away? What information do
Speaker 6: they get?
Speaker 7: Well, you know, I think they kept on doing this
Speaker 7: the hard interview and the third interview, and and it
Speaker 7: was done by a detective Slade. And he did the
Speaker 7: first two actually I should say, and then goits did
Speaker 7: the final one.
Speaker 4: And he was he was the real love hate.
Speaker 7: He was a real aggressive and would scare and then
Speaker 7: be real friendly, you know, kind of like a good
Speaker 7: cop bad cop in one really and uh and and
Speaker 7: you know he just worked his way through and about
Speaker 7: and he could talk about all of the things and
Speaker 7: get her to start minting lies and and how she
Speaker 7: was dating Daniel and how she was hiding it from
Speaker 7: the parents and then h and why, and she would
Speaker 7: go through all of that. He sort of had a
Speaker 7: way of bringing her out and then he started getting
Speaker 7: her to admit different little mistakes and it wasn't long
Speaker 7: and then you know, I'm just trying to remember now.
Speaker 7: I think that by the end of that she had admitted.
Speaker 4: That she she she.
Speaker 7: Had she was involved, but she kind of changed it
Speaker 7: to the point where she didn't want them to kill
Speaker 7: her parents. She hired them to kill her. Yeah, she
Speaker 7: started running with that story.
Speaker 6: He got her to admit that she was involved by
Speaker 6: saying and getting her to admit, well, what he had
Speaker 6: found anyway through just extensive interviews that and his deduction
Speaker 6: of from talking to her over many interviews, is that
Speaker 6: she was very controlled by her father and this relationship
Speaker 6: was frowned upon to the point where they just wanted her.
Speaker 6: It's like, say, the two minutes she could check her messages.
Speaker 6: This was really like prison for a young person, I
Speaker 6: would imagine, given everything that they regard as freedom. And
Speaker 6: at the same time he empathized with her talking about
Speaker 6: that and said, yes, it's a form of abuse. And
Speaker 6: so to try to get her to understand that he
Speaker 6: seemed to understand why this all happened, and that she
Speaker 6: needed to get on the right side of you know, listen,
Speaker 6: I know you're involved, so you need to tell me
Speaker 6: the entire story, otherwise you're going to make another really,
Speaker 6: really big mistake. So he tried to befriend her like
Speaker 6: that and keep that and chip away till he found
Speaker 6: the people that he thought were suspects. And of course
Speaker 6: then it's backed up by the towers and then the
Speaker 6: warrants for her two phones, because the first phone they
Speaker 6: found some information, but the second phone was quite a
Speaker 6: bit of information on who called and who next, before
Speaker 6: after and round about the murder time. And then they
Speaker 6: questioned her hard like you say that. Glites questioned her
Speaker 6: heart about that. Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 7: You know, and he well, he was able to kind
Speaker 7: of go, well, you know that you were saying. He
Speaker 7: was he was understanding about how pressured she felt and
Speaker 7: how she was, you know, felt abused and uh and
Speaker 7: and some of the key things was, you know, he
Speaker 7: would he would work up to something and and then
Speaker 7: you know, are you sorry for what happened?
Speaker 4: Do you wish you could take it back?
Speaker 7: And Jennifer then would say yes, and then so he
Speaker 7: would he would draw her up a certain level and
Speaker 7: then go back and then he would go with, you know,
Speaker 7: how did it start? What was your plan? And stuff,
Speaker 7: and and kind of draw her into admitting a little
Speaker 7: bit at a time, and and she would be very defensive.
Speaker 7: You know, if I could have stopped, I would have
Speaker 7: and and you know she'd put her hands in her
Speaker 7: face and down and be very you know, sad, and
Speaker 7: then of course he would be you know, more supportive, Oh,
Speaker 7: it wasn't supposed to be your mother, and try to
Speaker 7: be very nurturing, and then all of a sudden go
Speaker 7: back at her again. And it didn't take long before,
Speaker 7: you know, bringing up the numbers and bring up things,
Speaker 7: and she would pull things out and start to say
Speaker 7: things and then draw back, and and you know, she
Speaker 7: was caught, she really was. And it didn't help much
Speaker 7: in the trial because most of the stories she told
Speaker 7: were just that stories.
Speaker 6: They had her testify. The father also testified. It was
Speaker 6: an impact statement. You talked about that testimony. She was
Speaker 6: on the stand for seven days. Two days you say,
Speaker 6: was devoted just to her lies, to detail what she
Speaker 6: had actually said to them so that the jury could
Speaker 6: get that part of it straight. And then she continued
Speaker 6: with the same lie as her defense that she really
Speaker 6: wanted to die herself, or she would if she would
Speaker 6: have tried to call it off, but she couldn't. And
Speaker 6: yet the father had said, like you said that she
Speaker 6: was free and clear to walk around and he saw that. Yeah,
Speaker 6: and that's very damaging.
Speaker 7: Yeah, well, you know, you know, and then every time,
Speaker 7: even during the trial, she would say something and she
Speaker 7: would get caught in a mistake or a lie, depending
Speaker 7: on how you wanted to call it, and then she
Speaker 7: would change, like she was very good at quickly changing
Speaker 7: the story to make it work. She was just saying
Speaker 7: what she.
Speaker 4: Had to and.
Speaker 7: You know, nobody was going to believe it. And then
Speaker 7: having the impact statement as well from the father on
Speaker 7: top of it, and the suffering that he went through.
Speaker 7: You know, he's still damaged, you know, his neck and
Speaker 7: his face and stuff. It took several operations and he's
Speaker 7: still not able to work and a lot of times
Speaker 7: speak and he can't sleep. He's in great pain all
Speaker 7: the time. Once the jury sees the damage and they
Speaker 7: could just see it, and how she was so I
Speaker 7: don't know, just non caring. I want to say she
Speaker 7: was just so the plain affect. You know, there was
Speaker 7: nothing there, no feeling, and when she did feel it
Speaker 7: was always when she was getting caught into something or
Speaker 7: had to admit something, and then she would tear up
Speaker 7: and hide her face.
Speaker 6: The idea, too, is so that they got the idea
Speaker 6: that too, with the texts and the phone calls, that
Speaker 6: they had people that weren't at the crime itself, and
Speaker 6: that there were other people that were actually there and
Speaker 6: they charged everyone. They also had witnesses to say, like
Speaker 6: an Andrew to say, listen, she told me what she
Speaker 6: was going to do and how it was going to happen.
Speaker 6: Then this is it and so very very damaging. Doesn't
Speaker 6: look good at the trial. Tell us what happens in
Speaker 6: the end.
Speaker 7: Well, you know, she got convicted, that's not any surprise.
Speaker 7: And actually they all did. And she was given the
Speaker 7: maximum penalty, two life sentences for the first degree murder
Speaker 7: of her mother and the attempt at murder on her father,
Speaker 7: and no tense of parole for at least twenty five years,
Speaker 7: and so she'll be in prison till at least twenty
Speaker 7: thirty six. Probably she'll probably never get out. The same
Speaker 7: sentence went for Daniel Wong and Len Crawford and David
Speaker 7: Magnumen and.
Speaker 4: Eric Carty.
Speaker 7: Who was the only one that didn't get that was
Speaker 7: the guy that bargained with the crown and he took
Speaker 7: an eighteen year sentence in return for his admissions. And
Speaker 7: the thing is he was already serving a twenty five
Speaker 7: year for another murder in another case, so he's going
Speaker 7: to be there for at least forty three years. He'll
Speaker 7: probably be there for life as well, so we'll see
Speaker 7: what happens.
Speaker 6: Part of his deal was that me he provided excuse me,
Speaker 6: he provided information to the authorities that helped convict these
Speaker 6: guys and give them first degree murder, which is pretty
Speaker 6: tough in Canada. Isn't it pretty quite an achievement to
Speaker 6: have everybody for first degree murder?
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's a big deal and that's what they wanted.
Speaker 7: So and knowing that he had a twenty five year
Speaker 7: sentence before adding another eighteen they felt comfortable with it.
Speaker 6: You know, it was chilling. You include the impact statement.
Speaker 6: Of course, the father, like you say, will never ever
Speaker 6: be the same. It was interesting to the Beaks funeral,
Speaker 6: which was attended by Jennifer and her brother but the
Speaker 6: father couldn't even make it to the funeral. I thought
Speaker 6: that was odd that even had the funeral, then there
Speaker 6: was an order that she wasn't to see to go
Speaker 6: to see him at the hospital. Yet one of the
Speaker 6: most chilling parts of this book is that she snuck
Speaker 6: in there one time and talked to him, and he
Speaker 6: had spoken to the police, so he'd didn't let on
Speaker 6: that he thought she was guilty, and at that time
Speaker 6: she just felt it necessary to ask him what regarding money?
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, and I think that was sort of I
Speaker 7: think they both knew, but they had the relationship even
Speaker 7: in that stressful situation. He's lying in the hospital, she's
Speaker 7: had him shot. Even in that they could not talk
Speaker 7: real you know what I mean, there wasn't They still
Speaker 7: both had their front. He still was the father and
Speaker 7: she was still the daughter, and she was still too
Speaker 7: scared to be aggressive. She had to have other people
Speaker 7: do what she wanted done. So I think it was scary,
Speaker 7: But at the same point, I think that they both
Speaker 7: kept up their persona with each other.
Speaker 6: It's amazing she hasn't for tuition after everything. If it
Speaker 6: isn't the most upside down request of all. He asked,
Speaker 6: She asked sneaks in and then ask him for tuition
Speaker 6: for college. Incredible.
Speaker 7: Yeah, well, that's what I mean. She was still being her.
Speaker 7: She was still being the daughter you know that she
Speaker 7: was when they were at home. She was still doing
Speaker 7: you know it. She didn't look at him any differently,
Speaker 7: she didn't see things differently. It was still how it
Speaker 7: was at home. It was just too weird, and he
Speaker 7: kept he had his persona as well, being the tough father,
Speaker 7: not really showing a lot of affection, you know, being direct, and.
Speaker 4: It just did.
Speaker 7: Even after all that, nothing changed in their relationship.
Speaker 6: I would admit that this is a bizarre relationship she
Speaker 6: had with their father and her parents, and that it
Speaker 6: certainly does not match any well, almost any home you
Speaker 6: would find in Canada, and people would be surprised that
Speaker 6: people would be that controlling and expect that kind of
Speaker 6: compliance from their daughter, regardless of your background or your heritage,
Speaker 6: regardless of that. So I think the parents were being
Speaker 6: completely unrealistic. And then they knew that they had somebody
Speaker 6: that was not at the same level as them in
Speaker 6: terms of their values. They should have known what they
Speaker 6: were out in the world, and so it seemed like
Speaker 6: they didn't see what should have been pretty obvious to them.
Speaker 6: That being said, though, what I find in this is
Speaker 6: because of her account, is lots of times the account
Speaker 6: or Daniels or other people around that actually actually seemed
Speaker 6: to all feel some sympathy for her from her situation
Speaker 6: that she seems a lot more psychopathic than I think
Speaker 6: sometimes she was portrayed, say, even at the trial. What
Speaker 6: do you think about that in terms of the coldness
Speaker 6: and the evil that she possessed while her parents were well,
Speaker 6: I mean they would have been both murdered, So what
Speaker 6: do you think about that?
Speaker 7: Yeah, definitely, I think I think for sure she had
Speaker 7: She was definitely in a psychopathic situation. She had no
Speaker 7: emotions toward her parents, it seemed like her her her
Speaker 7: thoughts were always toward herself and what was going to
Speaker 7: happen with her, So through through everything and even the
Speaker 7: people she went through, her boyfriends, the friends, just everybody involved,
Speaker 7: she had no concern for anybody but herself. So everything
Speaker 7: she did every single day was totally ecocentric.
Speaker 4: It was totally about her.
Speaker 7: And she started turning that in high school toward herself
Speaker 7: and carried it right through I you know, I didn't
Speaker 7: see any emotion in her, nothing upsetting for her. That
Speaker 7: this is a very traumatic life to have been through
Speaker 7: and she just she just held it in or she
Speaker 7: didn't have a care in the world.
Speaker 6: You say it the decision at the sentencing, that she
Speaker 6: was smiling and the others had no emotion when they
Speaker 6: had the guilty but the you did see her hear
Speaker 6: some screams at the trial, and that Daniel Wong's mother
Speaker 6: ran out of that courtroom.
Speaker 7: Yeah, oh, for sure. You know you have to the
Speaker 7: three boys, not Daniel Wong, but the other three if
Speaker 7: you're the type that people will hire you to kill.
Speaker 7: And the one Eric Cardi had been had been convicted
Speaker 7: of murder as well already on another case. Those are
Speaker 7: people that didn't care. They'll kill for money and it
Speaker 7: doesn't really matter to them. As far as Daniel Long,
Speaker 7: he was supposed to be a pretty good boy overall.
Speaker 7: People really liked him. He was very friendly. He let
Speaker 7: his friends have any he'd let them use his car,
Speaker 7: he'd let them do he was super friendly and nice.
Speaker 7: How he got involved in this is a very big question,
Speaker 7: especially into the murder and especially all That's why I
Speaker 7: say all those weird phone calls he went through, and
Speaker 7: all the things he went through with both girlfriends, Jennifer
Speaker 7: and Kimberly, and all the stories that he was told.
Speaker 7: It's what's very confusing. That's why he said he didn't
Speaker 7: if he didn't believe Jennifer being raped and getting things
Speaker 7: in her mail and all this stuff happening. I don't
Speaker 7: think he handled it like he didn't believe it, you know,
Speaker 7: I just don't. You know, he's a He's a big
Speaker 7: question to mark in this whole case because he seems
Speaker 7: to be on the on the sidelines. He didn't seem
Speaker 7: to get there. You know, there was no you know,
Speaker 7: if you put yourself in the situation of having a
Speaker 7: girlfriend wanting you to kill her parents and her and
Speaker 7: all the stories she told them before, he didn't. He
Speaker 7: wasn't there by her side. But at the same time,
Speaker 7: he didn't stop her. You know, there's there's something funny
Speaker 7: about that his character in this and I don't quite
Speaker 7: understand it.
Speaker 6: So what kind of promises I don't It doesn't seem
Speaker 6: to be very clear what kind of money and where
Speaker 6: she would have gotten it from to give these guys
Speaker 6: the kind of money that would give them a motivation
Speaker 6: to kill at that time. I don't know if you
Speaker 6: can say, listen, I'll give you this much money. But
Speaker 6: later now there was an inheritance that I guess she
Speaker 6: would have been involved with her and her brother. But
Speaker 6: and it was the vehicles that they didn't steal, the
Speaker 6: Mercedes and Alexis. But like I say, it didn't even
Speaker 6: touch the safe. So what could she have because you
Speaker 6: don't talk about it. What kind of money could she
Speaker 6: have offered these guys?
Speaker 4: What could she have offered these guys?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 7: Not very much? Really, you're right there, really there really
Speaker 7: was no There wasn't much money. There was maybe what
Speaker 7: was it about twenty three thousand dollars?
Speaker 4: I think.
Speaker 7: That she could have offered them in cash. Then there's
Speaker 7: the house but it was not paid for, and the cars,
Speaker 7: and you're right, what she would have got and what
Speaker 7: her brother would have got in after stelling it and
Speaker 7: paying off the debts. I don't see that as being.
Speaker 4: A whole lot. But I think that.
Speaker 7: I think a lot of young people don't always realize that,
Speaker 7: or they think that they can get one hundred thousand
Speaker 7: dollars and that's a lot of money, you know, they think, Wow,
Speaker 7: that's going to set them up for life. Some people
Speaker 7: don't realize that it's it's not going to cut it.
Speaker 7: You're only twenty five. It's not going to set you
Speaker 7: up for the rest of your life. And I think
Speaker 7: she just had exaggerated dreams.
Speaker 6: Do you think all the stories, with all the lies
Speaker 6: that she told. Of course police need to get the
Speaker 6: information and the evidence after that, they don't need to
Speaker 6: know every single detail of what was a lie, what wasn't.
Speaker 6: But do you think that the story of again how
Speaker 6: what was offered to be paid, and the seriousness of
Speaker 6: everyone's involvement in this, you think really the entire truth
Speaker 6: has been told by especially Jennifer.
Speaker 7: No, No, not at all. You know, the closest resemblance
Speaker 7: of a truth is really from the evidence the police have,
Speaker 7: from the cell phones, from the texts, from the pings
Speaker 7: from witnesses and other you know, situations, and putting it
Speaker 7: together that way, it's probably the best real timeline we have.
Speaker 7: And even what happened in the house that night there
Speaker 7: that you know, it was told in so many different ways,
Speaker 7: and you know that, you know, they even assume on
Speaker 7: a lot of it. All we know is is you
Speaker 7: know about her unlocking the door, getting the text and
Speaker 7: game on, and both parents being shot and everything else
Speaker 7: just kind of a blur. And there's some things they
Speaker 7: can tell from, like you were saying, the ping and
Speaker 7: and some of that, so they can kind of tell
Speaker 7: when things happened in a roundabout way. And you know,
Speaker 7: she was so fluid with her lies that it would
Speaker 7: just come right out as soon as something was thrown
Speaker 7: at her that she couldn't answer. She created something how
Speaker 7: deep that goes? Who knows, because it started back in
Speaker 7: eighth grade and she developed a real character to be
Speaker 7: able to do that, and a real talent for it.
Speaker 7: And you know, one of those type of people that
Speaker 7: would stand there and tell you something and they really
Speaker 7: believe it. You know, that's how it sounds to you.
Speaker 7: They could be crying and you really believe what they're
Speaker 7: saying because they believe it. But she was the type
Speaker 7: that could tell that and then flip the story in
Speaker 7: two minutes. So I don't know if we could really
Speaker 7: I think the best we could do is take the
Speaker 7: little pieces that we have and know that she was
Speaker 7: involved and that she she paid or wanted to pay
Speaker 7: for this to be done.
Speaker 6: So, yeah, what was the media portrayal. Was there any
Speaker 6: sympathy for her because of this what she called abuse
Speaker 6: or what was the media portrayal of her?
Speaker 4: No, No, that never really caught on.
Speaker 7: For the most part. People were pretty angry with her
Speaker 7: for the for the most part. As soon as she
Speaker 7: was arrested and the story came out, they they people
Speaker 7: were not happy with.
Speaker 4: This. This was not a good.
Speaker 7: Thing for her. And and if anything.
Speaker 4: People.
Speaker 7: Pooh pooter, they doubted her completely, very very little sympathy
Speaker 7: for her, you know. If anything, the people that did
Speaker 7: support her at the beginning felt betrayed by this, you know,
Speaker 7: like her uncle and his family which she stayed with
Speaker 7: for a while, you know, and that kind of betrayal.
Speaker 7: I don't know that they could get over quickly. And
Speaker 7: people don't like this. They don't like the idea of
Speaker 7: a nobody likes this girl at having her parents killed
Speaker 7: or attempted murders and setting this whole up just to
Speaker 7: what to get money or you know, you can walk away.
Speaker 7: She was in her twenties, she did not need to
Speaker 7: stay at home. There were so many answers, I guess,
Speaker 7: and people just look at the alternatives rather than that,
Speaker 7: you know, It's not like she was really being abused.
Speaker 7: She wasn't being beaten and raped and attacked. It's just
Speaker 7: not something there's no reason to feel sorry for her.
Speaker 6: What I find alan is that I don't know if
Speaker 6: you can concur but it seems that when the killers,
Speaker 6: often serial killers often have this idea that they've been humiliated.
Speaker 6: And it seems that if we could say that was
Speaker 6: Jennifer humiliated by her father? Humiliated and say front of
Speaker 6: her classmates is some of her memories, I would say
Speaker 6: that she could say that, and in that way, I
Speaker 6: think that when she and just my idea is that
Speaker 6: when she was forced to leave Daniel and able to
Speaker 6: break up again, she said, well, listen, we can still
Speaker 6: still continue to be in secret, and he kind of
Speaker 6: seemed to drift away to the point where he got
Speaker 6: another girlfriend. Do you think that came into play because
Speaker 6: shortly after she start talking about the murder of her father.
Speaker 7: Oh, definitely, I think it was. It's just one of
Speaker 7: those things that was a step at a time, you know,
Speaker 7: And I think she, you know, she felt a sense
Speaker 7: of control with the lies, and when that happened, she
Speaker 7: no longer felt she was in control, and especially when
Speaker 7: he started seeing another girl, she felt like she was
Speaker 7: losing grips. So she had to get desperate, so she
Speaker 7: had to turn it up a notch. And so she
Speaker 7: had to get rid of the thing that was in
Speaker 7: her way, and that would be her father. You know,
Speaker 7: he was in the way in her mind.
Speaker 6: So he was also he was sorry. Yeah, he was
Speaker 6: also not really going to believe any of her lies anymore.
Speaker 6: She had been caught at almost every single thing, and
Speaker 6: it admitted to almost every a job that didn't exist,
Speaker 6: school that didn't exist, a diploma that didn't exist, all
Speaker 6: kinds of things that didn't exist. Everything he every promise
Speaker 6: she made to him, every single thing was a lie,
Speaker 6: every single thing. So eliminating him would also eliminate that
Speaker 6: shame that she did feel when she was cutting herself
Speaker 6: and feeling suicidal. And that seems to be true.
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean it all, it all makes
Speaker 7: sense in that way. I just think that she, you know,
Speaker 7: she lived in that world and as a teenager you
Speaker 7: can see it. But when you're twenty five, you know,
Speaker 7: I think most most kids just move out. You know,
Speaker 7: I'm not going to take that. You know, they get
Speaker 7: into a fight with their Dad and they move out.
Speaker 7: She stayed with it, and like I said, it's a
Speaker 7: very complex situation to want to do that, to want
Speaker 7: to stay there, and to want to please him, Like
Speaker 7: you know, why did she feel she had to keep
Speaker 7: lying and keep trying to please him and stay at
Speaker 7: home at it When you're in your mid late twenties,
Speaker 7: it starts to get I don't know what was the
Speaker 7: what was the end goal for her?
Speaker 6: Well, the disonment is the what they threatened her with.
Speaker 6: They said, listen, you can be with Daniel, but we
Speaker 6: will disown you from your family. And so that is
Speaker 6: a huge decision, I mean, psychologically, that's a hell of
Speaker 6: a thing to have to pick. And and like you said,
Speaker 6: the it seems questionable her actual mature age or actual
Speaker 6: maturity in terms of with all this isolation and focus
Speaker 6: on things and a non focus on social life. Was
Speaker 6: she really twenty five? I mean, not to excuse, not
Speaker 6: to excuse at all, but did she act in any
Speaker 6: way like twenty five?
Speaker 4: Yeah? She probably wasn't.
Speaker 7: And I mean, you know, because even the thought of
Speaker 7: being disowned, if that's going to crush you, that's one thing.
Speaker 7: But then so instead of being disoned, you killed them.
Speaker 6: I don't know what I mean, It.
Speaker 7: Just when you look at the bigger picture, it's kind
Speaker 7: of like, wow. So she was really trapped in that
Speaker 7: whole that whole world, and and it's so she was
Speaker 7: so trapped in it. And I'm not saying necessarily forced,
Speaker 7: but even in her own mind, she couldn't leave. She
Speaker 7: was part of that household and that that family. It
Speaker 7: would be better for her to kill them than to
Speaker 7: actually move out and be disowned. So in her mind
Speaker 7: she was pretty pretty screwed up.
Speaker 6: Well, the thing is, I think that if you look
Speaker 6: at this too, it doesn't seem like that she's diabolical.
Speaker 6: And none of these guys are diabolical in that after
Speaker 6: the fact or before or in planning or anything. So
Speaker 6: thank god for that in terms of not so bright
Speaker 6: criminals because it helps. But that's the only thing you
Speaker 6: could see the psychopathology, but it's not diabolical. Otherwise would
Speaker 6: we would have them dealing differently at trial, we'll say,
Speaker 6: and dealing differently through interviews and everything else. They're the
Speaker 6: thank thankfully they're not diabolical killers in this case.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 6: Now, Alan, I want to thank you very much for
Speaker 6: coming and talking about Deadly Betrayal, the true story of
Speaker 6: Jennifer Penn. For those that might want to look at
Speaker 6: other work that you have, the other true crime books
Speaker 6: that you do, and also tell us a little bit
Speaker 6: about your podcast, House a Mystery, excellent podcast, true crime podcast.
Speaker 6: So tell tell us about where they might be able
Speaker 6: to see your other work, Facebook pages or websites, and
Speaker 6: tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 7: Yeah, actually I have five books out and they're all
Speaker 7: on Amazon of course, and any good bookstores and my
Speaker 7: web page of course you can go to. It's just
Speaker 7: a House of Mystery and something weird media dot com.
Speaker 7: It kind of has everything books shows, House of Mysteries
Speaker 7: out of Seattle, and we broadcast five days a week
Speaker 7: Funday to Friday at four pm.
Speaker 6: Tell us a little bit about the format for those
Speaker 6: people that haven't been turned onto House of Mystery. Tell
Speaker 6: us what the formats like. There's so many different types
Speaker 6: of formats and so much as you know competition and
Speaker 6: true crime. Tell us what your format is and just
Speaker 6: tell us the kind of thing that you do week
Speaker 6: after week.
Speaker 7: Well, we're sort of we cover all types of mystery,
Speaker 7: so it can be true crime, mystery can be paranormal mystery,
Speaker 7: can be histories mysteries, and we usually have guests on
Speaker 7: that have written or done a film or had some
Speaker 7: sort of project, or maybe they were involved in a crime,
Speaker 7: and we kind of have a dialogue, not so much
Speaker 7: a debate, a dialogue about the thing that they were
Speaker 7: involved in. And we also have a doctor Joe Kazinski
Speaker 7: calls in and gives us the top three conspiracies of
Speaker 7: the week, and Stephen Lampley does the true crime commentary,
Speaker 7: and he's an old CSI cop who talks about the
Speaker 7: real CSI and what they do know and what happens
Speaker 7: to the body after death and all the different research angles,
Speaker 7: and he does a little commentary segment. So it's kind
Speaker 7: of kind of a little bit of everything in there,
Speaker 7: and it's a lot of fun. We try to be
Speaker 7: more like a little bit more scientific our in our
Speaker 7: approach to things like on conspiracy and things like that,
Speaker 7: so we're not just like a free wild thing talking
Speaker 7: about anything.
Speaker 6: We if my inquirer.
Speaker 7: Yeah, we're trying to be a little bit more realistic
Speaker 7: and logical and have evidence based things come into the show.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, it's a great podcast, a great project, and I
Speaker 6: recommend it. I want to thank you very much, Alan R.
Speaker 6: Warren for coming on and talking about this incredible Jennifer
Speaker 6: Penn and the murder of her family, an attempt well
Speaker 6: attempted murder of her entire family, deadly betrayal. Thank you
Speaker 6: very much for this, Alan, hope to talk to you
Speaker 6: again real soon. Thank you for this. You have a
Speaker 6: great night.
Speaker 7: Thank you