Speaker 1: The point that she made was that the emotional baggage,
do I have to shoot this person because the repercussions
of what happens in life after that? Did I really
do everything I could do before I shot this person?
And I think that's something that people don't really grasp sometimes.
Speaker 2: I'm Ryan Gresham and this this is Guntognation. Guntognation is
brought to you by Raine Ready, Safariland Ingless and Guns
and Gear. Hey, welcome into Guntognation today. On a Guntognation,
we have some special guests in the studio. We have
a special event going on with CCW Safe. You know
CCW Safe. It is, for lack of a better word,
consumer carry Insurance. I'm sure they have their own way
of describing it. But what we're doing is we're running
media members through the scenarios that you've probably seen on
our First Person Defender show. So let's welcome him in.
Julie Galla, Fred Massison, welcome in.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. It's pleasure to be here.
Speaker 2: Guys, thanks for being here. That's great. We okay, so
let's just jump right in. I mean, Julie, you're legendary
pro shooter. Fred A legendary gun writer guy, but former
law enforcement, right, it was a reserve officer, Okay, okay,
And it was kind of fun because it seems like
a lot of the people here have not done the
force on forced training, scenario based training type. So have
you've done some of it? I'm agine with my friend,
I mean, jul let's start with you. I mean, just
talk about today. What do you think.
Speaker 3: I went to MP school, so I had a very
different experience. Of course, we were exposed to fat system
and then you know, these kind of scenarios, but we
never used sims. And to be now twenty years later
than that, going through this as a civilian with a
different mindset as a mother, it's been quite an eye
opening experience. You guys have done an amazing job at
making me think more than I thought it would have thought.
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, yeah, I've the very very first time
I ever did anything like this. I was getting certified
as a simmunition's instructor with sim munitions the General Dynamics Company,
and the scenario they put me in was the simplest
little thing. There wasn't a lot of decision making, There
weren't a lot of people, but that scenario played over
and over in my head for days, and it was like,
this is the value of training, and this is the
value of this stuff because you can draw and shoot
paper all day and you went, I was really good
today or I wasn't really good or whatever. But like
this stuff, you start just doing the what if and
you know a different way I could have approached this
or whatever. I mean, Fred, we had two very different scenarios.
Yeah today, right, you did so the first one. The
first one was you guys are at work, you're the
last one here, you're outside, you're you're cleaning up, and
then somebody walks up on you. Now to go ahead
and just give away the punchline, the guy walking up
was in fact a bad guy. He did have ill intent.
What were you thinking, friend.
Speaker 1: Bail obvious, it's the scenario and you've done these so
you know that your first instinctive things are gonna go bad,
so you're you're amped up for it. But I will
say this is that the way that these these situations
were prefaced were very nice. Having done SIMS training and
for anybody who's done you even with the FATS, there's
it almost becomes a game sometimes where they're gonna bushwhack
you where it's almost a no win situation. So it's
nice going into it knowing that that wasn't going to
be the situation, but the scenario rolled out where you know,
we were engaging you. Yeah, I was the bad guy,
You were the bad guy. Did a really good job.
Speaker 2: Chris, and kJ is like, listen, I'm going to be
the bad guy for at least one of these. You
guys always have all the fun.
Speaker 1: It was very difficult for me not to say your name. Yeah,
I know, like I know you, what are you doing here?
But it's nice because it's interactive to a degree. It
escalated very quickly. It dragged on for some time, and
like you, I'm already running it back to your my mind,
running it back to your my mind, running back to
my mind, and ultimately I think the situation is late.
This or any force on force scenario is priceless training because,
like you said, we can spend a lot of time
on the rain, shooting around, shooting rounds, but there's no
kinetic feedback. And I'll call it that kinetic feedback. The
chance that you're going to get shot really changes the
dynamic of it, so that scenario specifically was it was
challenging because you don't want to have to present your
weapon to begin with, and you certainly don't have to
shoot somebody. But when your hand is forced, your hand
has been forced.
Speaker 2: Well, and I'll say this, we do a lot of
planning for these and we really think through obviously who
the bad guy is and what's because there's different types
of bad guys and you have to first We didn't
want you to know whether or not I was a
bad guy. You had to kind of figure that out
as we talked, because I didn't come in yelling and
screaming and pointing guns, right, I was like, Hey, what
is it you guys do here? It was like the
friendly creepy like, is this what's going on here?
Speaker 1: Man? Julie?
Speaker 2: What were you thinking in that I.
Speaker 3: Again, it's one of those weird things that because I
know you, but you did such a fine job that
I stopped in the moment of, you know, thinking oh
that's Ryan, but really listening to what you had to say.
And I think that was really helpful for me in
that scenario because it's not exactly I mean, it wasn't
my job, that's you know, it was very hard to
put myself in that situation and that I wouldn't be
doing that larn thing. But because of our conversations and
because of the way things escalated, it was definitely I
was juiced in a way I wasn't acting, And just
that unknown.
Speaker 2: Is a huge thing.
Speaker 3: And so many people Monday quarterback everything and you and
I'm even doing that now, but understanding the emotional things
that you go through, the thoughts that you have in
the and then all obviously the skills. I'm not once
today did I think about being able to handle my fire, right, Yeah,
And that's after years and years of being able to
do that. I think of the new concealed carryholder who's
just learning and maybe doesn't even remember where the magazine
button is or or you know, what they would need
to do to if they had a malfunction. And that's
I mean, that's such a they're all so blended.
Speaker 2: Well, you guys were both shooters.
Speaker 1: You're in your good shooters.
Speaker 2: And so like you can pick up a gun and
fire it and then hit the target. This is not
a big deal. This is a different thing, right, I mean,
this is we talk so much in our gun world
of gear and the cool red dots. Yeah, and Sarah
Coo finishes and then on this other side we'll talk
about shooting. Oh he had a two second bill drill
or whatever. Right, well, oh that's cool. Oh I'm a
Graham and this gun shoots so flat. Oh everyone's companying
every gun. Now this has nothing to do with that, right, No,
nothing to do with it.
Speaker 1: This is This is fires training, This is mind training.
And kudos to you once again because like you, I've
been through scenarios and this is not a clear cut scenario.
This is a slowly, slowly graduating involvement scenario. So many
times we've been in training and you know there's a
bad guy inside with a gun. Well you know what's
about to happen. I mean you're in a gunfight. And
this is oh, you know is practicing shooting indoors. That's
all this is. But the way that it developed and
the way that you do these is spectacular, because as
I said, it's not gun training, because we've already you
should already have those fundamental skills, but it's now straining
your mind. Now, your your brain is run one hundred
miles an hour. I'm like, well, what's about to happen.
Could this happen? You need to show that down and
dis absorb and be in the moment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's Fred you shot me, Julie you didn't
shoot me. And and that's that's determined by the bad
guy does based on what you guys do. Rights never
the same, right, it's never the same. Every that first
one with me as the bad guy, every scenario was different.
I mean, and I wasn't really sure should I mix
it up? But I didn't have to. I didn't have
to mix it up because I'm doing what based on
what you guys are doing. You know, I would turn
my back to people. I would, I would kind of
walk slowly towards them. I'd be friendly. You know, you
you ended up kind of you were you were. I mean,
Julie is very friendly and she just is.
Speaker 3: And then I don't like using a loud voice, except
it's very hard for the mom boys to come out.
Speaker 2: Well and your thoughts you were fairly reserved. Yeah, but
you did end up at some point go this is
creeping me out. You drew your gun. I don't think
you were pointed it at me. Well, I think I said,
I said, is that thing even loaded? I think you
said do you want to find out.
Speaker 3: Or I don't read, I don't even remember. That's the
you know, that's that's the thing in that moment. But yeah,
what the thing that I appreciate is we come from
all different backgrounds in this group, in and experienced levels,
and you've were very clear in setting ground rules. This
will not happen, this could happen. No one's going to
do this or that the other thing, and so it
sets a tone for everybody to have that calm sort
of Okay, I can really learn from this experience without
somebody coming out of the ceiling or what.
Speaker 2: We're not doing a gotcha thing because people we can
come up with goofy stuff. What if it was six guys.
I saw that in the video one time. Yeah, we're
not We're not trying to make it ridiculous or completely
unfair and unwinnable. There's stuff that we're like, it's not winnable.
I mean because we tell you act naturally, act how
you normally would act. Well, I could walk up to
you on the sidewalk and shoot you five times in
the chest. What are we doing now? Like, like, well,
you got experience getting shot with paintball.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: All right. So the second scenario we did today was different.
We were in the shoot house and they said you're
in your house, yes, and we had I'll tell you
the backstory. I mean, maybe you guys have figured it
out by now. It's interesting when you try to set
it up and you try to tell people it's just
a kid walking through and you don't know it's a
kid because we've got role players and he's got a
mask on and all this stuff. So there's a little
bit of a little bit of make believe, a little
bit of like figuring out what's going on here. But
he walks in, but he's acting kind of weird goofy,
and he's asking for someone who's in the house. But
he's in your house. Yeah, and I actually this wasn't intentional.
I think, Julie, you shot him, yes, Red, you didn't
have to shoot him, and you use commands and he.
Speaker 3: Struck fear into his soul.
Speaker 2: I mean, when people do this, and we have one
of our participant. She managed to go through both scenarios
and didn't shoot the guy either time. Becky and I
think the reason is she got so aggressive so quickly
as a bad guy you can feel that, and you can.
I mean, on that first one, I was a bad
guy and you're going, I mean, I'm not suicidal. I'm
just like but she is on sites on trigger.
Speaker 1: She means it.
Speaker 2: She's using the mom's voice. Yes, And she did the
same thing on the second one. But this guy was
unarmed and if you listen and talked to him, he
was going to leave. But you guys didn't know that
going in.
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts?
Speaker 3: I immediately after I shot him, I felt remorse over
having to have to shoot him, But at the same time,
in my house, I have an alarm system, I have dogs,
I have a plan, I have very specific things. So
if all of those things would have had to have been,
you know, broken in order for someone to come through,
and I made the decision to shoot as soon as
I saw him doing funny things with his hands around
his waist, you know, just from that experience him being bigger,
stronger in my home kids there. I even though I
would feel horrible about it, I still feel that I
still feel justified and right in doing that because it
could have easily have gone the other way so fast.
Speaker 2: And this is why we do training and we have
to and this is kind of and I think in
airplanes it's the chain of an accident chain, right, It's like,
why would never do that? Well, this was a time
when your door was unlocked, this was a time when
your alarm wasn't set, and it's highly unlikely, but it's
not impossible, of course, Fred, What do you think?
Speaker 1: Well, I think it was a great scenario, and it's
a very individual scenario two because once again based upon
so many different factors of my house versus Julie's house.
But it's for me the scenario. Office wall fairly quickly
heard him come in, caught my attention, unrecognized voice, so
I was already moving, and when he presented in the doorway,
I was already up with a gun drawn in on him,
sights on finger on the tracker, and some of the
slack out already, And there was even if he decided
he's going to pull a John Wick on me, I
still had to drop on him. So I was absolutely
in control of the moment. Did you hear him say anything?
I heard him mention my daughter's name. With the helmets
on and everything going on, it's very tough. I heard
him say something that's cold I live in Arizona, so
I know that he was had a mental issue to
begin again, that's never cold an Arizona. But he immediately
physically energy wise, he started to back out. So right
then and there, even before you physically moved, I could
see him kind of recoil a little bit, and I
knew that i'd continue to have that. Brand still pressed
the issue and forced him out, and fortunately I didn't
have to shoot him because I felt that I had
complete control the situation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we have CCW safe here. They gave legal
analysis on it and there are a lot of lessons learned.
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Safe is the one putting on this event. Obviously they
deal with the aftermath part, which again when you talk
about cool gear and cool shooting, we don't talk about
the aftermath that much. But we have Chris Cunning here
from their team here and she is evaluating everyone going
through it. She said a lot of stuff, guys, I mean,
lessons learned Julie so many.
Speaker 3: I think the biggest takeaway for me is just knowing
that even with this they're on your side, Like if
you have a problem, Chris is going to be that
Chris person that you know, all of the team behind
CCW Safe is going to be there, and the things
that she makes you think about. At least for me,
when I was going through this scenario, we talked about
the broom. We had a scenario with the broom in
hand and I had my gun in it hand and
a broom in the other hand, and because you were
acting so erratically, I didn't want to drop the broom
to make you startle and do something weird. I also
didn't want to give you the broom as a weapon,
so I was like, okay, finally, I like, I'm going
to get rid of this and actually do something. And
she brought that up, and she does it in such
a way that she doesn't hound on you that you
are wrong or anything of that nature. She said, think
about this, think about that, and it's I think it's
such such an educational experience.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of people end up if you start
with something in your hands in these scenarios, it's pretty
rare when people drop the things in their hands. If
it's something small, it's keys, or it's a phone, they'll
just go to drawing and shooting. And you're like, man,
you just held that phone or that broom a lot
of time, and you're like, why did I do that?
Speaker 3: Do that?
Speaker 2: What else do you think? I mean, less like the
legal aftermath part. Is there anything that we've thought about
today that we didn't think about before?
Speaker 3: I mean, as far as what CCW safe does. Having
them as your your backup plan after something happens is
so vital, and then all of the resources that they
provide to help you get to the point of understanding
what's going to happen is so important. I think that,
you know, having her say, Okay, you're in your home,
this is your castle, this is the law. You're justified
in this, but then talking about all of the other
things that can happen.
Speaker 2: There's other stuff, right actually is I mean in that
particular Spario, Okay, he was unarmed, he was in your house.
Depending on where you live and other things, you're perhaps
legally justified, but you're also going to have to go
to court. And there's also criminal and civil. There's a
civil part here.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: I always call that the OJ factory. You know, it's
like there's that civil suit thing that you go, well
I didn't go to jail. You're like, okay, but there's
a second trial were they're coming for you? Hunh fred I.
Speaker 1: Agree, And I think that these scenarios, and he touched
on it and kind of follow what Juliet said, this
is this is kind of a twofold two different creatures
and scenarios. If I think the first one was all
about perhaps the criminal side of it, you know, was
it a quote unquote good shoot? The second one was
much more gray. Yeah, And while Julie, with all of
her barriers, would have been justified to shoot. Then we
talk about the other side of it, and that is
the emotional side of it. You know, would have been civil, yes,
could you steal one probably, But the point that she
made was that the emotional baggage. Do I have to
shoot this person because the repercussions of what happens in
life after that? Did I really do everything I could
do before I shot this person? And I think that's
something that people don't really grasp sometimes. And that's also
why I'm really impressed with them. I've dealt with the
arms of the CCW insurance industry for a little bit,
and everybody's got their got their lane, and they're they're
good at what they do, but nobody does what they do.
Nobody does what CCW Safe does. I mean, it's not insurance, right,
it's a service.
Speaker 3: It's a membership.
Speaker 1: It's a membership. It's a service. It's it's it's connecting
with a group that does obviously the you know, the
logistical side of it for you, but the fact that
they dispatch somebody to be there with you to help
you with your life, to make sure that you're eating
to make sure you get counseling. I mean, these are
things that go far beyond just you know, a corporate
you know, entity that sells a product hit.
Speaker 2: At the same time, I heard them say it yesterday
and today, they're like, look, we think we do a
good job and we offer a good value for our members.
But if you don't go with us, go with somebody,
we'll need some type of coverage like today's age.
Speaker 1: And I agree completely even if you don't with CW say,
and the litigation creates a society we have today, you
need coverage.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you needing So going back to you know, wasn't justified.
But then there's an emotional part. Chris Sono obviously he's
here and helping run this thing, and he said, and
I think that, you know, it's like, did you do
everything you could to not have to shoot this person?
Not that you have to, not that you have to
do everything, but I mean, frankly, you don't want to
have to shoot someone. There's the emotional side, there's all
that part. There's also frankly that probably helps legally. And
I mean they didn't say this, but I'm saying it
like that probably helps legally. If there's a case to
be made to like, look, I did this, and then
I did this. I retreated to my bedroom. He's kicking
at the door. Now I retreated the bathroom, and like
I tried to not have to shoot him. There's probably
something to be said for that. And he said, that's
what I was getting at, is three have said he
was a cop for all these years. He goes, if
I had shot everyone, I would have. I was legally justified.
I probably could have shot dozens of people on the job,
on doing jobs.
Speaker 3: And that's the key too, I think is important. And
I think that civilians, especially women or new gun owners
in general, they don't have that kind of perspective. And
so to have Chris say something like, look, we understand
you're gonna be scared, and we understand you're gonna be amped,
but if you can take just that one moment to
just get out of the tunnel vision and maybe analyze
a little bit more, things could be totally different.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was one that and it's hard. You're in
a shoot house, you're wearing safety helmet, safety year. But
this is one where we were hoping people would hear
the kid walking in, which was kJ but he kJ
got shot a lot a lot today, poor kJ. But
that's what he does. But if they listened, they would
have realized he's I'm just an erratic person.
Speaker 3: I have a solution for you. Okay, it should have
been us. I was hanging out at Fred's house as
a friend. I'm the one who's armed and someone comes
through Fred's because then it's not my house. And now
maybe you were drinking that night or something, and I'm there,
you know, with my gun to make sure everything's all. Say,
he comes in, I do you know him? I don't
know why is he in here? And I feel like
that interaction would have been a little bit different because
it's your house. I feel like they're automatically, especially if
you have something to protect sure and value that different
it is.
Speaker 2: We did hear a lot of well he was in
my house, and I'm like, okay, yeah, that's there. There's
two things. You can be legally justified, and you could
also shoot an unarmed person who was lost or drunk
or mentally disabled. So it's been done in real life
in their life.
Speaker 1: And it brings to the question is just because not
the question, but the idea that just because you can
doesn't mean you should, and that's there's no clear definition
without though. Yeah, like for a for a small female,
I mean, Katie is not a small guy, right, So
for Julie, I mean would I if I was Julie,
would I have shot him?
Speaker 3: Or would you have told me to shoot him?
Speaker 2: Shoulder? We were doing a training, uh with a couple,
and we were doing a video simulation thing. But the
guys like, you know, there's a couple and they have
guns that shoot, the lasers that tell you where it
hits and all this stuff.
Speaker 1: And.
Speaker 2: The guy they both have their hands up and they're
both armed. But the guy start separating out and then
eventually you know, they got the bad guy shoots and
they shoot back whatever they end and the guy goes
turns of wife because why didn't you shoot him? That
is the plan? Like I am the threat. I am
trying to gain his attention, like hey, man, like shoot him,
Hey don't do it? Shoot him? Like go ahead and
shoot him now, Like yeah, it's like the signal you're
supposed to shoot him, right and you know the side
of his dome because he's focused on me. You know.
Family plans, Family plans, go ride the best plans. Yeah,
anything that you would change on how you approach today.
Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely, well you always you always working well. In
the first scenario, I hung a lot, hung around way
too long. I gave you a couple of kicks just
to make sure you shot me.
Speaker 2: I went down.
Speaker 1: Why couldn't eat your hand? He had a hand in her.
Speaker 2: Hand, and honestly, dude, it's the way I fell.
Speaker 1: It's just the way I.
Speaker 2: Fell, and my hand was underneath me, And I thought, well,
this is kind of fun.
Speaker 1: Were you so good at what you're doing? I was like,
he shouldn't have the gun. I should have immediately put
some distance. I should have immediately egged it. But I couldn't,
you know in retrospect. And of course when you reflect,
you're like, oh, should I could.
Speaker 2: For the best part of this, should have, could have,
would have stuff, And it'll roll around your brain for
days and you're like, wow, that's sort a different way
I can do this. And and Chris Cunningham's had a
great that She's like, I don't want to create training scars.
I'm not saying yes, you just go ahead and shoot them.
Well you just why did you? Why did you shoot him?
I don't want you to hesitate when you shouldn't. I
don't want you to shoot when you shouldn't. But it's
just thinking about options. And it's kind of the wind
then thing of like, Okay, if I have a gun
point at a guy and I'm like, get the f
out of here, and he keeps walking towards me, I'm
probably if he keeps coming, I'm gonna have to shoot him,
even if I don't see a gun. Yeah, because he
gets close enough, he's taking my gun. And there's just
those types of things you have to think about, Julie,
what would you change?
Speaker 3: I am not assertive in my speech.
Speaker 2: I am.
Speaker 3: I am a people pleaser and like a nice I
try to be nice to everybody. And I need I
need I needed. They absolutely know, very very clearly in
a situation like that, and it makes me very uncomfortable
to do so I don't like it. But and there
have there have been times I certainly have, and I
you know, when I'm in a leadership position and doing
a specific thing, sure, but that's not this, and this
is me and so finding it's it's been a wake
up call for me because you get sit there saying, oh, yeah,
I'm I suld great on the range.
Speaker 2: I can give arranged commands, I can do this, you know,
I can do all that.
Speaker 3: But in this situation, it's like please stop, no, no,
they come back tomorrow, you know, you know, and and
just wanting to de escalate and not be as strong
as I need to be in the pits of situation.
Speaker 2: Some people, and sometimes I think it does kind of
skew towards women. Sometimes I have a hard time turning
on the mean gene and you're like, all right, I'm
not effing around anymore, and you got it. Yeah, No,
beckyn't die boy, She's like, oh my bad, she's gonna
light me up. Yeah, she wouldn't mess around. But it's
being able to turn on that mean gene, being able
to drop the words that the criminals understand, the four one,
the four letter one yes, and say it with conviction
and meaning. And even if I mean, even if a
gun's not involved, that could be really helpful, even if
it's a bomb that actually is not coming to stab you, yea,
But just like let them know I'm not playing and
we're not gonna do this.
Speaker 3: I feel like a little bit of a hypocrite because
it's the same thing I tell my daughters, like be loud.
Speaker 1: Be clear, and here I am.
Speaker 3: Yeah, please come back tomorrow, please.
Speaker 2: You know, like, you know, we're reluctant to be rude, yes, right, yeah, some.
Speaker 1: Of us are.
Speaker 2: We are, Yeah, I mean, it's not a bad thing.
We shouldn't be just rude. That's that's called being an asshole.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But like, but there is a time when you're like,
I don't know you you're making me uncomfortable and let
them know. I mean, and I think it can de escalate.
Feels like a different thing, but that is a way
of de escalating to if you keep coming, we're going
to escalate and I'll go there.
Speaker 1: You know, that's a good point. That is the escalation. Yeah,
the people confuse that a harsh, firm tone with somebody
is actually a point of v escalation because it stops
will potentially happen because now if you get within my
within touch space, you know, the danger is real now
things have escalated. So by being firm with somebody verbally,
I think that can truly you know, de escalated situation.
It's not always a kind you know, be super nice
to them. That's not always the escalation. The escalation can
be said, away from me, right, and they do and
it's over. You just de escalated the situation.
Speaker 2: Well, there's different types of bad guy, right. There's there
is the psychopath that's like, cool, we're gonna mix this
up and I'm not worried about your your words or
your threats. And then there's the people that are like,
I'm looking for an easy mark. So this this lady
or this guy seems like they're not messing around. Maybe
I'll just move on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost like a line in the sand. It's
it's it's a litmus stuff. If I tell you to stop,
don't come any further, and you continue to come further,
you just failed the test. Now I know what your
intent is.
Speaker 2: You failed the test. Yes, now you pay the price.
We don't grate on a curve. Well, thanks for being
with us, guys. We're gonna do some more of this tomorrow.
And uh, maybe we all need to go get a drink.
Speaker 1: That's not a bad idea.
Speaker 2: All right, we'll see you next time on gun Dog Nation.