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Speaker 1: The point that she made was that the emotional baggage,

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do I have to shoot this person because the repercussions

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of what happens in life after that? Did I really

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do everything I could do before I shot this person?

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And I think that's something that people don't really grasp sometimes.

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Speaker 2: I'm Ryan Gresham and this this is Guntognation. Guntognation is

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brought to you by Raine Ready, Safariland Ingless and Guns

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and Gear. Hey, welcome into Guntognation today. On a Guntognation,

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we have some special guests in the studio. We have

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a special event going on with CCW Safe. You know

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CCW Safe. It is, for lack of a better word,

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consumer carry Insurance. I'm sure they have their own way

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of describing it. But what we're doing is we're running

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media members through the scenarios that you've probably seen on

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our First Person Defender show. So let's welcome him in.

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Julie Galla, Fred Massison, welcome in.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much. It's pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 2: Guys, thanks for being here. That's great. We okay, so

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let's just jump right in. I mean, Julie, you're legendary

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pro shooter. Fred A legendary gun writer guy, but former

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law enforcement, right, it was a reserve officer, Okay, okay,

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And it was kind of fun because it seems like

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a lot of the people here have not done the

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force on forced training, scenario based training type. So have

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you've done some of it? I'm agine with my friend,

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I mean, jul let's start with you. I mean, just

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talk about today. What do you think.

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Speaker 3: I went to MP school, so I had a very

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different experience. Of course, we were exposed to fat system

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and then you know, these kind of scenarios, but we

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never used sims. And to be now twenty years later

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than that, going through this as a civilian with a

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different mindset as a mother, it's been quite an eye

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opening experience. You guys have done an amazing job at

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making me think more than I thought it would have thought.

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Speaker 2: You know, yeah, yeah, I've the very very first time

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I ever did anything like this. I was getting certified

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as a simmunition's instructor with sim munitions the General Dynamics Company,

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and the scenario they put me in was the simplest

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little thing. There wasn't a lot of decision making, There

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weren't a lot of people, but that scenario played over

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and over in my head for days, and it was like,

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this is the value of training, and this is the

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value of this stuff because you can draw and shoot

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paper all day and you went, I was really good

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today or I wasn't really good or whatever. But like

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this stuff, you start just doing the what if and

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you know a different way I could have approached this

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or whatever. I mean, Fred, we had two very different scenarios.

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Yeah today, right, you did so the first one. The

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first one was you guys are at work, you're the

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last one here, you're outside, you're you're cleaning up, and

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then somebody walks up on you. Now to go ahead

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and just give away the punchline, the guy walking up

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was in fact a bad guy. He did have ill intent.

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What were you thinking, friend.

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Speaker 1: Bail obvious, it's the scenario and you've done these so

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you know that your first instinctive things are gonna go bad,

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so you're you're amped up for it. But I will

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say this is that the way that these these situations

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were prefaced were very nice. Having done SIMS training and

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for anybody who's done you even with the FATS, there's

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it almost becomes a game sometimes where they're gonna bushwhack

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you where it's almost a no win situation. So it's

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nice going into it knowing that that wasn't going to

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be the situation, but the scenario rolled out where you know,

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we were engaging you. Yeah, I was the bad guy,

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You were the bad guy. Did a really good job.

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Speaker 2: Chris, and kJ is like, listen, I'm going to be

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the bad guy for at least one of these. You

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guys always have all the fun.

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Speaker 1: It was very difficult for me not to say your name. Yeah,

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I know, like I know you, what are you doing here?

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But it's nice because it's interactive to a degree. It

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escalated very quickly. It dragged on for some time, and

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like you, I'm already running it back to your my mind,

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running it back to your my mind, running back to

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my mind, and ultimately I think the situation is late.

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This or any force on force scenario is priceless training because,

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like you said, we can spend a lot of time

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on the rain, shooting around, shooting rounds, but there's no

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kinetic feedback. And I'll call it that kinetic feedback. The

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chance that you're going to get shot really changes the

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dynamic of it, so that scenario specifically was it was

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challenging because you don't want to have to present your

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weapon to begin with, and you certainly don't have to

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shoot somebody. But when your hand is forced, your hand

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has been forced.

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Speaker 2: Well, and I'll say this, we do a lot of

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planning for these and we really think through obviously who

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the bad guy is and what's because there's different types

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of bad guys and you have to first We didn't

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want you to know whether or not I was a

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bad guy. You had to kind of figure that out

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as we talked, because I didn't come in yelling and

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screaming and pointing guns, right, I was like, Hey, what

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is it you guys do here? It was like the

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friendly creepy like, is this what's going on here?

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Speaker 1: Man? Julie?

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Speaker 2: What were you thinking in that I.

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Speaker 3: Again, it's one of those weird things that because I

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know you, but you did such a fine job that

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I stopped in the moment of, you know, thinking oh

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that's Ryan, but really listening to what you had to say.

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And I think that was really helpful for me in

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that scenario because it's not exactly I mean, it wasn't

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my job, that's you know, it was very hard to

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put myself in that situation and that I wouldn't be

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doing that larn thing. But because of our conversations and

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because of the way things escalated, it was definitely I

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was juiced in a way I wasn't acting, And just

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that unknown.

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Speaker 2: Is a huge thing.

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Speaker 3: And so many people Monday quarterback everything and you and

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I'm even doing that now, but understanding the emotional things

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that you go through, the thoughts that you have in

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the and then all obviously the skills. I'm not once

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today did I think about being able to handle my fire, right, Yeah,

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And that's after years and years of being able to

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do that. I think of the new concealed carryholder who's

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just learning and maybe doesn't even remember where the magazine

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button is or or you know, what they would need

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to do to if they had a malfunction. And that's

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I mean, that's such a they're all so blended.

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Speaker 2: Well, you guys were both shooters.

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Speaker 1: You're in your good shooters.

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Speaker 2: And so like you can pick up a gun and

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fire it and then hit the target. This is not

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a big deal. This is a different thing, right, I mean,

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this is we talk so much in our gun world

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of gear and the cool red dots. Yeah, and Sarah

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Coo finishes and then on this other side we'll talk

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about shooting. Oh he had a two second bill drill

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or whatever. Right, well, oh that's cool. Oh I'm a

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Graham and this gun shoots so flat. Oh everyone's companying

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every gun. Now this has nothing to do with that, right, No,

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nothing to do with it.

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Speaker 1: This is This is fires training, This is mind training.

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And kudos to you once again because like you, I've

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been through scenarios and this is not a clear cut scenario.

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This is a slowly, slowly graduating involvement scenario. So many

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times we've been in training and you know there's a

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bad guy inside with a gun. Well you know what's

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about to happen. I mean you're in a gunfight. And

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this is oh, you know is practicing shooting indoors. That's

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all this is. But the way that it developed and

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the way that you do these is spectacular, because as

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I said, it's not gun training, because we've already you

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should already have those fundamental skills, but it's now straining

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your mind. Now, your your brain is run one hundred

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miles an hour. I'm like, well, what's about to happen.

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Could this happen? You need to show that down and

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dis absorb and be in the moment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's Fred you shot me, Julie you didn't

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shoot me. And and that's that's determined by the bad

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guy does based on what you guys do. Rights never

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the same, right, it's never the same. Every that first

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one with me as the bad guy, every scenario was different.

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I mean, and I wasn't really sure should I mix

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it up? But I didn't have to. I didn't have

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to mix it up because I'm doing what based on

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what you guys are doing. You know, I would turn

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my back to people. I would, I would kind of

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walk slowly towards them. I'd be friendly. You know, you

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you ended up kind of you were you were. I mean,

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Julie is very friendly and she just is.

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Speaker 3: And then I don't like using a loud voice, except

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it's very hard for the mom boys to come out.

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Speaker 2: Well and your thoughts you were fairly reserved. Yeah, but

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you did end up at some point go this is

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creeping me out. You drew your gun. I don't think

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you were pointed it at me. Well, I think I said,

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I said, is that thing even loaded? I think you

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said do you want to find out.

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Speaker 3: Or I don't read, I don't even remember. That's the

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you know, that's that's the thing in that moment. But yeah,

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what the thing that I appreciate is we come from

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all different backgrounds in this group, in and experienced levels,

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and you've were very clear in setting ground rules. This

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will not happen, this could happen. No one's going to

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do this or that the other thing, and so it

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sets a tone for everybody to have that calm sort

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of Okay, I can really learn from this experience without

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somebody coming out of the ceiling or what.

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Speaker 2: We're not doing a gotcha thing because people we can

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come up with goofy stuff. What if it was six guys.

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I saw that in the video one time. Yeah, we're

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not We're not trying to make it ridiculous or completely

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unfair and unwinnable. There's stuff that we're like, it's not winnable.

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I mean because we tell you act naturally, act how

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you normally would act. Well, I could walk up to

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you on the sidewalk and shoot you five times in

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the chest. What are we doing now? Like, like, well,

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you got experience getting shot with paintball.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: All right. So the second scenario we did today was different.

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We were in the shoot house and they said you're

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in your house, yes, and we had I'll tell you

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the backstory. I mean, maybe you guys have figured it

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out by now. It's interesting when you try to set

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it up and you try to tell people it's just

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a kid walking through and you don't know it's a

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kid because we've got role players and he's got a

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mask on and all this stuff. So there's a little

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bit of a little bit of make believe, a little

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bit of like figuring out what's going on here. But

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he walks in, but he's acting kind of weird goofy,

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and he's asking for someone who's in the house. But

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he's in your house. Yeah, and I actually this wasn't intentional.

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I think, Julie, you shot him, yes, Red, you didn't

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have to shoot him, and you use commands and he.

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Speaker 3: Struck fear into his soul.

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Speaker 2: I mean, when people do this, and we have one

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of our participant. She managed to go through both scenarios

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and didn't shoot the guy either time. Becky and I

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think the reason is she got so aggressive so quickly

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as a bad guy you can feel that, and you can.

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I mean, on that first one, I was a bad

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guy and you're going, I mean, I'm not suicidal. I'm

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just like but she is on sites on trigger.

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Speaker 1: She means it.

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Speaker 2: She's using the mom's voice. Yes, And she did the

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same thing on the second one. But this guy was

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unarmed and if you listen and talked to him, he

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was going to leave. But you guys didn't know that

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going in.

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Speaker 1: What are your thoughts?

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Speaker 3: I immediately after I shot him, I felt remorse over

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having to have to shoot him, But at the same time,

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in my house, I have an alarm system, I have dogs,

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I have a plan, I have very specific things. So

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if all of those things would have had to have been,

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you know, broken in order for someone to come through,

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and I made the decision to shoot as soon as

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I saw him doing funny things with his hands around

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his waist, you know, just from that experience him being bigger,

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stronger in my home kids there. I even though I

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would feel horrible about it, I still feel that I

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still feel justified and right in doing that because it

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could have easily have gone the other way so fast.

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Speaker 2: And this is why we do training and we have

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to and this is kind of and I think in

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airplanes it's the chain of an accident chain, right, It's like,

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why would never do that? Well, this was a time

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when your door was unlocked, this was a time when

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your alarm wasn't set, and it's highly unlikely, but it's

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not impossible, of course, Fred, What do you think?

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Speaker 1: Well, I think it was a great scenario, and it's

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a very individual scenario two because once again based upon

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so many different factors of my house versus Julie's house.

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But it's for me the scenario. Office wall fairly quickly

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heard him come in, caught my attention, unrecognized voice, so

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I was already moving, and when he presented in the doorway,

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I was already up with a gun drawn in on him,

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sights on finger on the tracker, and some of the

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slack out already, And there was even if he decided

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he's going to pull a John Wick on me, I

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still had to drop on him. So I was absolutely

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in control of the moment. Did you hear him say anything?

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I heard him mention my daughter's name. With the helmets

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on and everything going on, it's very tough. I heard

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him say something that's cold I live in Arizona, so

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I know that he was had a mental issue to

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begin again, that's never cold an Arizona. But he immediately

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physically energy wise, he started to back out. So right

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then and there, even before you physically moved, I could

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see him kind of recoil a little bit, and I

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knew that i'd continue to have that. Brand still pressed

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the issue and forced him out, and fortunately I didn't

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have to shoot him because I felt that I had

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complete control the situation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we have CCW safe here. They gave legal

273
00:14:05,639 --> 00:14:07,840
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of Guns and Gear is out now. So guys, CCW

305
00:16:11,639 --> 00:16:14,480
Safe is the one putting on this event. Obviously they

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deal with the aftermath part, which again when you talk

307
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,440
about cool gear and cool shooting, we don't talk about

308
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:24,000
the aftermath that much. But we have Chris Cunning here

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from their team here and she is evaluating everyone going

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through it. She said a lot of stuff, guys, I mean,

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lessons learned Julie so many.

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Speaker 3: I think the biggest takeaway for me is just knowing

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that even with this they're on your side, Like if

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you have a problem, Chris is going to be that

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Chris person that you know, all of the team behind

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CCW Safe is going to be there, and the things

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that she makes you think about. At least for me,

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when I was going through this scenario, we talked about

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the broom. We had a scenario with the broom in

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hand and I had my gun in it hand and

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a broom in the other hand, and because you were

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acting so erratically, I didn't want to drop the broom

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to make you startle and do something weird. I also

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didn't want to give you the broom as a weapon,

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so I was like, okay, finally, I like, I'm going

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to get rid of this and actually do something. And

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she brought that up, and she does it in such

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a way that she doesn't hound on you that you

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are wrong or anything of that nature. She said, think

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about this, think about that, and it's I think it's

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such such an educational experience.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of people end up if you start

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with something in your hands in these scenarios, it's pretty

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rare when people drop the things in their hands. If

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it's something small, it's keys, or it's a phone, they'll

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just go to drawing and shooting. And you're like, man,

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you just held that phone or that broom a lot

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of time, and you're like, why did I do that?

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Speaker 3: Do that?

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Speaker 2: What else do you think? I mean, less like the

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legal aftermath part. Is there anything that we've thought about

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today that we didn't think about before?

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Speaker 3: I mean, as far as what CCW safe does. Having

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00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:11,200
them as your your backup plan after something happens is

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so vital, and then all of the resources that they

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provide to help you get to the point of understanding

347
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what's going to happen is so important. I think that,

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you know, having her say, Okay, you're in your home,

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this is your castle, this is the law. You're justified

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in this, but then talking about all of the other

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things that can happen.

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Speaker 2: There's other stuff, right actually is I mean in that

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particular Spario, Okay, he was unarmed, he was in your house.

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Depending on where you live and other things, you're perhaps

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legally justified, but you're also going to have to go

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to court. And there's also criminal and civil. There's a

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civil part here.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 2: I always call that the OJ factory. You know, it's

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like there's that civil suit thing that you go, well

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I didn't go to jail. You're like, okay, but there's

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a second trial were they're coming for you? Hunh fred I.

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Speaker 1: Agree, And I think that these scenarios, and he touched

364
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on it and kind of follow what Juliet said, this

365
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is this is kind of a twofold two different creatures

366
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and scenarios. If I think the first one was all

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about perhaps the criminal side of it, you know, was

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it a quote unquote good shoot? The second one was

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much more gray. Yeah, And while Julie, with all of

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her barriers, would have been justified to shoot. Then we

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talk about the other side of it, and that is

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the emotional side of it. You know, would have been civil, yes,

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could you steal one probably, But the point that she

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made was that the emotional baggage. Do I have to

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shoot this person because the repercussions of what happens in

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life after that? Did I really do everything I could

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do before I shot this person? And I think that's

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something that people don't really grasp sometimes. And that's also

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why I'm really impressed with them. I've dealt with the

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00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,160
arms of the CCW insurance industry for a little bit,

381
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and everybody's got their got their lane, and they're they're

382
00:20:08,319 --> 00:20:10,680
good at what they do, but nobody does what they do.

383
00:20:11,079 --> 00:20:16,279
Nobody does what CCW Safe does. I mean, it's not insurance, right,

384
00:20:16,319 --> 00:20:17,079
it's a service.

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Speaker 3: It's a membership.

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Speaker 1: It's a membership. It's a service. It's it's it's connecting

387
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with a group that does obviously the you know, the

388
00:20:25,319 --> 00:20:28,359
logistical side of it for you, but the fact that

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they dispatch somebody to be there with you to help

390
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,160
you with your life, to make sure that you're eating

391
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to make sure you get counseling. I mean, these are

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00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:40,400
things that go far beyond just you know, a corporate

393
00:20:41,319 --> 00:20:43,880
you know, entity that sells a product hit.

394
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,440
Speaker 2: At the same time, I heard them say it yesterday

395
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,279
and today, they're like, look, we think we do a

396
00:20:49,279 --> 00:20:52,000
good job and we offer a good value for our members.

397
00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,319
But if you don't go with us, go with somebody,

398
00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,400
we'll need some type of coverage like today's age.

399
00:21:00,079 --> 00:21:03,039
Speaker 1: And I agree completely even if you don't with CW say,

400
00:21:04,759 --> 00:21:08,200
and the litigation creates a society we have today, you

401
00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:09,240
need coverage.

402
00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:13,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, you needing So going back to you know, wasn't justified.

403
00:21:13,319 --> 00:21:16,920
But then there's an emotional part. Chris Sono obviously he's

404
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,039
here and helping run this thing, and he said, and

405
00:21:20,319 --> 00:21:23,240
I think that, you know, it's like, did you do

406
00:21:23,319 --> 00:21:26,119
everything you could to not have to shoot this person?

407
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,119
Not that you have to, not that you have to

408
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:34,240
do everything, but I mean, frankly, you don't want to

409
00:21:34,279 --> 00:21:36,680
have to shoot someone. There's the emotional side, there's all

410
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,400
that part. There's also frankly that probably helps legally. And

411
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,160
I mean they didn't say this, but I'm saying it

412
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like that probably helps legally. If there's a case to

413
00:21:46,279 --> 00:21:48,440
be made to like, look, I did this, and then

414
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,480
I did this. I retreated to my bedroom. He's kicking

415
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at the door. Now I retreated the bathroom, and like

416
00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,720
I tried to not have to shoot him. There's probably

417
00:21:55,799 --> 00:21:58,920
something to be said for that. And he said, that's

418
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,039
what I was getting at, is three have said he

419
00:22:01,079 --> 00:22:03,839
was a cop for all these years. He goes, if

420
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,079
I had shot everyone, I would have. I was legally justified.

421
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,519
I probably could have shot dozens of people on the job,

422
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:11,519
on doing jobs.

423
00:22:11,559 --> 00:22:13,640
Speaker 3: And that's the key too, I think is important. And

424
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:18,559
I think that civilians, especially women or new gun owners

425
00:22:18,559 --> 00:22:21,519
in general, they don't have that kind of perspective. And

426
00:22:21,599 --> 00:22:26,079
so to have Chris say something like, look, we understand

427
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,079
you're gonna be scared, and we understand you're gonna be amped,

428
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,359
but if you can take just that one moment to

429
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,119
just get out of the tunnel vision and maybe analyze

430
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,559
a little bit more, things could be totally different.

431
00:22:36,759 --> 00:22:39,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was one that and it's hard. You're in

432
00:22:39,599 --> 00:22:43,279
a shoot house, you're wearing safety helmet, safety year. But

433
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:45,519
this is one where we were hoping people would hear

434
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,039
the kid walking in, which was kJ but he kJ

435
00:22:50,079 --> 00:22:53,920
got shot a lot a lot today, poor kJ. But

436
00:22:54,039 --> 00:22:57,839
that's what he does. But if they listened, they would

437
00:22:57,839 --> 00:23:02,119
have realized he's I'm just an erratic person.

438
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,640
Speaker 3: I have a solution for you. Okay, it should have

439
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,519
been us. I was hanging out at Fred's house as

440
00:23:07,519 --> 00:23:10,880
a friend. I'm the one who's armed and someone comes

441
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:16,079
through Fred's because then it's not my house. And now

442
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,559
maybe you were drinking that night or something, and I'm there,

443
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,680
you know, with my gun to make sure everything's all. Say,

444
00:23:23,039 --> 00:23:25,920
he comes in, I do you know him? I don't

445
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:27,519
know why is he in here? And I feel like

446
00:23:27,559 --> 00:23:30,079
that interaction would have been a little bit different because

447
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,680
it's your house. I feel like they're automatically, especially if

448
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,200
you have something to protect sure and value that different

449
00:23:38,279 --> 00:23:38,559
it is.

450
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,839
Speaker 2: We did hear a lot of well he was in

451
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:47,359
my house, and I'm like, okay, yeah, that's there. There's

452
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,160
two things. You can be legally justified, and you could

453
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,200
also shoot an unarmed person who was lost or drunk

454
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,799
or mentally disabled. So it's been done in real life

455
00:24:00,039 --> 00:24:00,759
in their life.

456
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,400
Speaker 1: And it brings to the question is just because not

457
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,200
the question, but the idea that just because you can

458
00:24:08,599 --> 00:24:13,839
doesn't mean you should, and that's there's no clear definition

459
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,200
without though. Yeah, like for a for a small female,

460
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,400
I mean, Katie is not a small guy, right, So

461
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,920
for Julie, I mean would I if I was Julie,

462
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:25,960
would I have shot him?

463
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:27,599
Speaker 3: Or would you have told me to shoot him?

464
00:24:32,839 --> 00:24:39,599
Speaker 2: Shoulder? We were doing a training, uh with a couple,

465
00:24:40,279 --> 00:24:44,880
and we were doing a video simulation thing. But the

466
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:49,279
guys like, you know, there's a couple and they have

467
00:24:49,839 --> 00:24:52,039
guns that shoot, the lasers that tell you where it

468
00:24:52,079 --> 00:24:53,519
hits and all this stuff.

469
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:54,279
Speaker 1: And.

470
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,079
Speaker 2: The guy they both have their hands up and they're

471
00:24:58,079 --> 00:25:02,839
both armed. But the guy start separating out and then

472
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,880
eventually you know, they got the bad guy shoots and

473
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,160
they shoot back whatever they end and the guy goes

474
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,519
turns of wife because why didn't you shoot him? That

475
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,880
is the plan? Like I am the threat. I am

476
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,039
trying to gain his attention, like hey, man, like shoot him,

477
00:25:18,279 --> 00:25:21,240
Hey don't do it? Shoot him? Like go ahead and

478
00:25:21,279 --> 00:25:24,680
shoot him now, Like yeah, it's like the signal you're

479
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,599
supposed to shoot him, right and you know the side

480
00:25:26,599 --> 00:25:29,359
of his dome because he's focused on me. You know.

481
00:25:30,559 --> 00:25:35,680
Family plans, Family plans, go ride the best plans. Yeah,

482
00:25:35,799 --> 00:25:38,160
anything that you would change on how you approach today.

483
00:25:38,839 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely, well you always you always working well. In

484
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,200
the first scenario, I hung a lot, hung around way

485
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,160
too long. I gave you a couple of kicks just

486
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:49,119
to make sure you shot me.

487
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 2: I went down.

488
00:25:50,759 --> 00:25:52,640
Speaker 1: Why couldn't eat your hand? He had a hand in her.

489
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,559
Speaker 2: Hand, and honestly, dude, it's the way I fell.

490
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:56,799
Speaker 1: It's just the way I.

491
00:25:56,759 --> 00:25:58,880
Speaker 2: Fell, and my hand was underneath me, And I thought, well,

492
00:25:58,880 --> 00:25:59,640
this is kind of fun.

493
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 1: Were you so good at what you're doing? I was like,

494
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,960
he shouldn't have the gun. I should have immediately put

495
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,519
some distance. I should have immediately egged it. But I couldn't,

496
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,200
you know in retrospect. And of course when you reflect,

497
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,720
you're like, oh, should I could.

498
00:26:15,759 --> 00:26:18,599
Speaker 2: For the best part of this, should have, could have,

499
00:26:18,599 --> 00:26:21,200
would have stuff, And it'll roll around your brain for

500
00:26:21,319 --> 00:26:23,920
days and you're like, wow, that's sort a different way

501
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,599
I can do this. And and Chris Cunningham's had a

502
00:26:26,599 --> 00:26:28,680
great that She's like, I don't want to create training scars.

503
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,400
I'm not saying yes, you just go ahead and shoot them.

504
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,319
Well you just why did you? Why did you shoot him?

505
00:26:33,319 --> 00:26:35,160
I don't want you to hesitate when you shouldn't. I

506
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,279
don't want you to shoot when you shouldn't. But it's

507
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,759
just thinking about options. And it's kind of the wind

508
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,839
then thing of like, Okay, if I have a gun

509
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,920
point at a guy and I'm like, get the f

510
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:50,759
out of here, and he keeps walking towards me, I'm

511
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,759
probably if he keeps coming, I'm gonna have to shoot him,

512
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,480
even if I don't see a gun. Yeah, because he

513
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,160
gets close enough, he's taking my gun. And there's just

514
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,000
those types of things you have to think about, Julie,

515
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:01,960
what would you change?

516
00:27:02,039 --> 00:27:06,640
Speaker 3: I am not assertive in my speech.

517
00:27:07,799 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 2: I am.

518
00:27:08,519 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 3: I am a people pleaser and like a nice I

519
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,039
try to be nice to everybody. And I need I

520
00:27:15,079 --> 00:27:19,160
need I needed. They absolutely know, very very clearly in

521
00:27:19,319 --> 00:27:21,880
a situation like that, and it makes me very uncomfortable

522
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,519
to do so I don't like it. But and there

523
00:27:25,519 --> 00:27:27,680
have there have been times I certainly have, and I

524
00:27:27,759 --> 00:27:30,079
you know, when I'm in a leadership position and doing

525
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,759
a specific thing, sure, but that's not this, and this

526
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,480
is me and so finding it's it's been a wake

527
00:27:36,559 --> 00:27:38,680
up call for me because you get sit there saying, oh, yeah,

528
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:40,319
I'm I suld great on the range.

529
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 2: I can give arranged commands, I can do this, you know,

530
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:42,920
I can do all that.

531
00:27:43,039 --> 00:27:46,400
Speaker 3: But in this situation, it's like please stop, no, no,

532
00:27:46,599 --> 00:27:49,799
they come back tomorrow, you know, you know, and and

533
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,920
just wanting to de escalate and not be as strong

534
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,400
as I need to be in the pits of situation.

535
00:27:56,279 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 2: Some people, and sometimes I think it does kind of

536
00:27:58,759 --> 00:28:02,359
skew towards women. Sometimes I have a hard time turning

537
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,240
on the mean gene and you're like, all right, I'm

538
00:28:06,279 --> 00:28:09,240
not effing around anymore, and you got it. Yeah, No,

539
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,640
beckyn't die boy, She's like, oh my bad, she's gonna

540
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,160
light me up. Yeah, she wouldn't mess around. But it's

541
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,559
being able to turn on that mean gene, being able

542
00:28:19,559 --> 00:28:23,640
to drop the words that the criminals understand, the four one,

543
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,359
the four letter one yes, and say it with conviction

544
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,240
and meaning. And even if I mean, even if a

545
00:28:29,279 --> 00:28:32,680
gun's not involved, that could be really helpful, even if

546
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,599
it's a bomb that actually is not coming to stab you, yea,

547
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,960
But just like let them know I'm not playing and

548
00:28:39,079 --> 00:28:40,039
we're not gonna do this.

549
00:28:40,279 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 3: I feel like a little bit of a hypocrite because

550
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,240
it's the same thing I tell my daughters, like be loud.

551
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: Be clear, and here I am.

552
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, please come back tomorrow, please.

553
00:28:49,519 --> 00:28:55,359
Speaker 2: You know, like, you know, we're reluctant to be rude, yes, right, yeah, some.

554
00:28:56,279 --> 00:28:56,759
Speaker 1: Of us are.

555
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:58,839
Speaker 2: We are, Yeah, I mean, it's not a bad thing.

556
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,559
We shouldn't be just rude. That's that's called being an asshole.

557
00:29:01,799 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

558
00:29:02,039 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 2: But like, but there is a time when you're like,

559
00:29:04,559 --> 00:29:08,519
I don't know you you're making me uncomfortable and let

560
00:29:08,519 --> 00:29:13,720
them know. I mean, and I think it can de escalate.

561
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,279
Feels like a different thing, but that is a way

562
00:29:16,279 --> 00:29:20,400
of de escalating to if you keep coming, we're going

563
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:21,799
to escalate and I'll go there.

564
00:29:22,039 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: You know, that's a good point. That is the escalation. Yeah,

565
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,519
the people confuse that a harsh, firm tone with somebody

566
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,480
is actually a point of v escalation because it stops

567
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,000
will potentially happen because now if you get within my

568
00:29:34,319 --> 00:29:37,200
within touch space, you know, the danger is real now

569
00:29:37,279 --> 00:29:41,759
things have escalated. So by being firm with somebody verbally,

570
00:29:41,839 --> 00:29:44,640
I think that can truly you know, de escalated situation.

571
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,240
It's not always a kind you know, be super nice

572
00:29:48,279 --> 00:29:52,119
to them. That's not always the escalation. The escalation can

573
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,759
be said, away from me, right, and they do and

574
00:29:55,839 --> 00:29:58,599
it's over. You just de escalated the situation.

575
00:29:58,799 --> 00:30:01,599
Speaker 2: Well, there's different types of bad guy, right. There's there

576
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,680
is the psychopath that's like, cool, we're gonna mix this

577
00:30:04,839 --> 00:30:07,720
up and I'm not worried about your your words or

578
00:30:07,759 --> 00:30:09,839
your threats. And then there's the people that are like,

579
00:30:09,839 --> 00:30:12,799
I'm looking for an easy mark. So this this lady

580
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,359
or this guy seems like they're not messing around. Maybe

581
00:30:16,359 --> 00:30:17,000
I'll just move on.

582
00:30:17,799 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost like a line in the sand. It's

583
00:30:19,599 --> 00:30:21,759
it's it's a litmus stuff. If I tell you to stop,

584
00:30:21,839 --> 00:30:24,960
don't come any further, and you continue to come further,

585
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,960
you just failed the test. Now I know what your

586
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:28,480
intent is.

587
00:30:28,599 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 2: You failed the test. Yes, now you pay the price.

588
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,960
We don't grate on a curve. Well, thanks for being

589
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,240
with us, guys. We're gonna do some more of this tomorrow.

590
00:30:38,519 --> 00:30:40,839
And uh, maybe we all need to go get a drink.

591
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 1: That's not a bad idea.

592
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 2: All right, we'll see you next time on gun Dog Nation.