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Speaker 1: What's up, everybody.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to another episode of Let's Ask Paul, the podcast

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where you get to ask me, Paul Abernathy, anything you

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want about the National Electrical Code and all things electrically related,

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and I will give you my opinion. You can agree

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to disagree, but at the end of the day, it's

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my opinion. I own it and I will give that

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opinion to you. If you would like to send for

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an opinion to NFPA, you're free to do that. It

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carries no more weight than mine. But I am giving

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you my thoughts and my insights on different things that

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are asked of me here at PAULA Abernathy dot com.

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So that is the portal where you can submit questions.

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Just go to Paul Abernathy dot com and you'll see

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a pretty simple format for you to be able to

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ask questions.

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Speaker 1: So do me a favor.

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Speaker 2: Just go there and feel free to ask questions. A

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couple announcements that I'm going to make in the Let's

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Ask Paul podcast.

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Speaker 1: Before we get too deep into it.

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Speaker 2: You may notice that we have discontinued a lot of

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merchandise from our website, So if you were thinking of

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buying the hoodies or the shirts or hats, and they

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were pretty neat engraved products or I mean not engraved,

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embroidered products, and pretty good quality stuff. And you say, ooh,

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I just drug my feet, Well, too bad, they're gone.

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We just are not going to get into that again.

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It didn't make us enough money. We weren't in it

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for the money when it came to those products. But

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many cases we barely made one or two bucks on

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everything that was sold. But we incurred. The issue is

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if somebody had a problem with something, so it's just

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not worth it. So we do have merch up there.

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We have our engraved coins, our engraved wallets, you know,

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the minimalist wallets. We have coasters, other things that we

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engrave here in house available, our conductor length cards, our

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voltage drop cards, all those type of things. And we'll

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have many other types of things coming out. But that's

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where we're going to draw the line. We're not getting

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into any of those other products. And the other reason

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was the price has changed so much from import and

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since they were made to order, the price is fluctuated

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and many times we even lost money on a sale.

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Well that's not a good way to do business, right,

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so we're just not risking anymore. There wasn't enough in

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mass volume. If it did a couple thousand dollars a month,

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that was great, and people say, hey, a couple thousands,

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a couple of thousand, but it really wasn't.

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Speaker 1: In the scheme of the way we work. It's just

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not enough.

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Speaker 2: So it's too much trouble. So we just just continued it.

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So if you've ever wondered where it happened to that stuff,

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it's all gone now. You can't go over there. It's

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in our store. You can see our engraved products and

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things that we have over there still there. But we

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just are not gonna deal with things like shirts, hats, hoodies,

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all that kind of stuff. And don't ask because if

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you snoozed, you losed. If you didn't buy it up

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to this point, then it is what it is. You

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can't buy it. It's gone.

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Speaker 1: Okay. Just want to get that out there all right. Now.

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Speaker 2: We do have some unique designs, and we might make

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our designs available at some point for somebody to be

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able to use it and get their own stuff made.

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That is what we're looking at, because we do like

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the design stuff and we have a lot of designs

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and logos for master and journeyman electricians. But at this point,

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don't ask because it's we're not there and we're not

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sure we're gonna even do that, right anyway, that's what

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we got going on for that, all right. Also, secondly,

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you may notice that there's a little bit of a

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redesign on the website.

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Speaker 1: It's just a little nuance.

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Speaker 2: And how you would navigate to the exam prep courses

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database and other resources.

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Speaker 1: Just changing it up a little bit.

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Speaker 2: You may or may not like it, but it's a

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little more colorful look to the mobile if you go

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to the site on the mobile. But anyway, it is

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what it is, or just kind of making some subtle changes.

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Speaker 1: All right. Today, we're gonna be talking.

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Speaker 2: About a question that was submitted to me in the

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Let's Ask. Paul was asking about pullboxes and or a

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metal wireway that is imposed on a raceway run and

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whether or not you had to meet the pullbox requirements

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even though it was technically not a pullbox. And I'm

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you know, everybody likes the code to be pretty much

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black and white, and you know, I tell you what

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it's written a certain way. I wish that everybody would

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enforce the code a certain way. But in reality, some

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people look at something and they bring up questions and

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they say, well, what if. So at the end of

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the day, the AHJ some things are just black and white, right,

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it's just point blank it has to be a certain way.

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But there's some things that could be argued. And here

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are some things that that that you could create an

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argument for or a position for. And again, the AHJ

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AUTH already having jurisdiction. The inspector who is working on

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behalf of the actual AHJ, or maybe it's the building

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official or the build UH, the UH administrator for the county,

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whoever's done, you know, doing codes and and enforcement. At

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the end of the day, they have the ultimate say.

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That's their responsibility. A NEC is it's just a document.

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If it's not adopted, it's not enforced, then it's really

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what's the point in it?

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Speaker 1: Right, So that's something we have to keep in mind.

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Speaker 2: So in this case, the question, I'll read the question

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and I'll tell you that and I've already emailed this

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individual and I've gave them my position. There's two ways

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to look at this, and I'm going to give you

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the practical way that I would teach it. And I

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remember for years I was the kind of Devil's advocate

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kind of guy. And I used to remember or Phil

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Simmons telling me one time, says, Paul'll tell people the

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other way. Just tell them the way it's supposed to be,

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and and you know, and that means that's the way

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that I thought it would be.

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Speaker 1: And he's like, that's enough, and whereat.

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Speaker 2: I always would give you what it's supposed to be,

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what I thought it was in the code, and then

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I'll give you the devil's advocate response. And again you

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can say, well shit, you just just tell me what

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I'm supposed to do. And I don't like to do

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that because I think all the people out there that

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listen are free thinkers. Obviously, if you look at social media,

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everybody's got an opinion, and I just have an opinion,

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and I'll share my opinion and you can agree to disagree,

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and that's fine. And you could say I'm full of crap.

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That's fine too.

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Speaker 1: I don't.

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Speaker 2: I don't really care at this point in my life.

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I really don't care what anybody thinks of me, really,

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so it is what it is, right. I'm on the

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downswing of life. If I could retire tomorrow and not

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do anything, I just do it all right. Let me

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read this out to you. So here's the question. It says,

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I have a question about wire way. If I install

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a twelve by twelve and I'm assuming he's me twelve

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by twelve inch, I guess metal wireway above a four

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hundred and anp panel board. It says a three point

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five or three and a half trade size EMT is

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passing straight down through the wireway on on the twelve

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inch side to an eighteen inch nipple to the panel.

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So basically, it's got a three and a half trade

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size EMT coming into the top, coming into a wireway,

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and then coming out of the bottom of the wireway

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with a nipple that goes through the panel. We'll assume

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the nipple is the same size three and a half,

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which is still just a raceway. It's no definition of

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a nipple. In the NEC we make references to length,

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but the end of the day, a nipple, an EMT

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nipple is still just EMT. It's still a raceway, just

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happens to be a shorter one. Now it says I

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only have two nineties in the run, so I don't

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need to use the three sixty degree Okay, it's what

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he says. It's a little grammar issue here, so I'm

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just gonna paraphrase it, so y'all understand it.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: Now it says, does the wire have to be eight times?

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The raceway size? Has stayed in three seventy six dot

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twenty three b has me concerned?

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Speaker 1: Why?

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Speaker 2: Way, Phil, is not the concern. I appreciate all you

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do for us little guys out in the field. Hey, y'all,

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is what make the world go around. Okay, it's just

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little you know, people like me that opine on this

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and that. But at the end of the day, y'all,

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y'all are what get it done. So again, don't ever

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feel a little guy, y'all, all of the ones that

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get it done, we're just here to support you.

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Speaker 1: That's important. So let me answer this question.

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Speaker 2: And the only way to answer this question is how

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we logically would look at the installation if if somebody

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and I've had this happen before, if somebody's pulling conductors

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in a raceway and they are going to be exceeding

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three hundred and sixty degrees worth of bens whether it's

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offsets so, whether it's nineties, whatever it may be, then

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they will install a box in there in order to

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meet the pullbox to meet the three sixty rules, right,

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no more than three sixty degrees between bins between points

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right pull points. Okay, So the logic always was wash,

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we'll put the box in there, then we comply with

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the code.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: So let's say they were three hundred and eighty degrees

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worth of bins. Okay, So somewhere in there before those

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last couple binds, they'll put in a box. And their

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argument is, and people's argument is is it a poolbox?

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I mean, at the end of the day, am I

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going to pull out of it? Well, obviously, as far

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as the code's concerned, it's a poolbox, so that you

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don't have more than three hundred and sixty degrees between

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pool points.

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Speaker 1: It does not dictate that you use it. That's a

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code rule.

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Speaker 2: So you put the pullbox in, you're probably still going

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to pull straight through it, provided you've done a pull

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calculation and you know what to do with the pull calculation.

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And by the way, we do pull calculations for people. Okay,

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So at the end of the day, when an inspector

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looks at that, it's whether you use it or not.

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Speaker 1: It's still a pullbox.

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Speaker 2: You're literally are pulling conductors through it, and whether you

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you use it or not is irrelevant. So with that said,

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under those rules, you would have to put a pullbox

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in there or a box in there that meets all

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the rules that be required as if it was a

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pullbox a pullbox.

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Speaker 1: Right, you'd still have to meet those rules. Right.

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Speaker 2: So you have these rules in three fourteen dot twenty eight,

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and they talk about uh straight pulls straight as eight

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or angles or splices. It's six times the largest raceway.

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Now with the angles, it's plus the sum of the

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other raceways in the same row on the same side.

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So all these rules would still be in play regardless

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of whether or not you use the pullbox or you

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don't even want to call it a pullbox. The reality

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is if conductors are passing through it, it could conceivably

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be used as a pullbox. So you have to meet

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the requirements of three fourteen dot twenty eight. Okay, it

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just is what it is. Now the question comes up

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and it's like this one where the gentleman says, you know,

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we put a wireway up there that's interposed into the

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raceway run. We're not doing it to meet the three

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because we have an issue with three hundred and sixty

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degrees of binds between poll points. We don't have an

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issue that we just wanted to put a wireway up

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there for whatever reason.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: And so you call it not a pullbox. You just

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say I just put a wireway up there. I mean,

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that's that's what you're saying.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: So if you're going with me down this chain of thought,

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we're gonna look at that now. In doing so, we're

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gonna have to go look at article three seventy six.

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Speaker 1: Now, three seventy six is dealing.

239
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Speaker 2: With wireways, okay, and so because he said this was

240
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a metal wireway, So that's what we're dealing with.

241
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Speaker 1: Now.

242
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Speaker 2: If you go look at three seventy six dot twenty three,

243
00:11:48,279 --> 00:11:52,360
which is titled insulated conductors, okay, so we're talking about

244
00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:57,519
insulated conductors th HHN thw N DASH to x HHW whatever,

245
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insulated conductors. It says that in slated conductors installed in

246
00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,440
metal wireways shall comply with three seventy six dot twenty

247
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three A and B.

248
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Speaker 1: Okay.

249
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Speaker 2: So it tells us right off the bat, if you're

250
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installing insulating conductors inside of a wireway, you're going to

251
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have to meet the rules of three seventy six do

252
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twenty three A and B. Now A is dealing with

253
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deflexion of those insulated conductors, okay. So that is where

254
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the conductors come into the box or come into the

255
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wireway right either into the wireway or whatever, and how

256
00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:35,440
it moves through the actual wireway, and the deflection of

257
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those conductors. Okay, So as they come in, enter and leave,

258
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or the direction of the metal wireway itself is deflected

259
00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:49,879
greater than thirty degrees demension and dimensions, then you have

260
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to follow the requirements of the one wire perternal in

261
00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,960
table three twelve dot six A shall apply. So you

262
00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,919
have deflection rules, and we have a table that deals

263
00:12:59,919 --> 00:13:03,039
with deflection rules, okay, and you use the spacing.

264
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Speaker 1: It's one wire per terminal.

265
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Speaker 2: And we've actually, I think I've done some videos or

266
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training on that deflection not.

267
00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:11,759
Speaker 1: The topic of this question though.

268
00:13:12,159 --> 00:13:15,519
Speaker 2: It's not about deflection because in this case, the raceway

269
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came into the top of the twelve inch twelve x

270
00:13:18,399 --> 00:13:20,960
twelve wireway and came straight out.

271
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Speaker 1: Of the bottom of the wireway.

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Speaker 2: So the question is is that a pullbox is just

273
00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,200
a junction box. What is the purpose of the box?

274
00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,679
And then we're also going to think from an inspector's perspective.

275
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If I'm looking at it, I'm wondering why they hell

276
00:13:36,799 --> 00:13:38,639
did you put this box in there? So you have

277
00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:43,000
to ask yourself some important questions about this. Now here's

278
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,360
what it says in B three seventy six, at twenty

279
00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:50,840
three B. It says metal wireways used as a pullbox. Now,

280
00:13:50,879 --> 00:13:53,039
a lot of people will look at that charging statement

281
00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,360
and immediately we'll say, and here's the devil's advocates.

282
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Speaker 1: You're ready.

283
00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,399
Speaker 2: They'll say, well, this gentleman put this box in here,

284
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but he's not using it as a pullbox. Therefore this

285
00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:06,639
rule doesn't apply because it's not being used as a poolbox. Well,

286
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,320
the question about that really comes into the fact that

287
00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,480
even when you're looking at three fourteen twenty eight A

288
00:14:11,639 --> 00:14:14,120
one and A two, and you're looking at eight times

289
00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,519
and okay, that's the requirements for the mentions of the

290
00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:19,000
box that's used as a pullbox.

291
00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:20,799
Speaker 1: Okay, but it.

292
00:14:20,759 --> 00:14:23,840
Speaker 2: Doesn't go short in defining in the NEEC what the hell,

293
00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:28,000
a poolbox is by nature, so any box that I

294
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,600
pull conductors through it can be argued is it's.

295
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,000
Speaker 1: A pullbox, right.

296
00:14:34,519 --> 00:14:37,399
Speaker 2: I mean, that's what we're talking about, not just for

297
00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:39,679
you to pull in and conductors in and out during

298
00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,159
a raceway pull application. I mean, that's the most practical reason.

299
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,000
But at the end of the day, what did I say.

300
00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,480
I said, if you had a raceway and you were

301
00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,799
going to exceed three sixty, the way you do it

302
00:14:50,879 --> 00:14:54,360
is you drop a pullbox in there. Whether you use

303
00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:56,960
it or not, it goes in there to meet the

304
00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,679
code requirements so that you don't have more than three

305
00:14:59,759 --> 00:15:02,679
hundred sixty degrees between pull points. So you're just putting

306
00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,519
the box in there as an exercise, You're probably going

307
00:15:06,519 --> 00:15:10,120
to pull it straight through that box, okay, you know,

308
00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,519
unless there is some type of deflection you gotta worry about,

309
00:15:12,519 --> 00:15:14,519
But normally you're gonna pull it straight through the box.

310
00:15:14,639 --> 00:15:15,000
Speaker 1: Okay.

311
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:20,360
Speaker 2: So, by by pure nature it's a pullbox. So when

312
00:15:20,399 --> 00:15:23,120
you read this, there us be the devil's advocates. Again,

313
00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,360
this may be your argument if you run into this

314
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,279
in your jurisdiction and you have an HJ that will

315
00:15:28,279 --> 00:15:30,919
listen to you then you can argue this says this

316
00:15:31,039 --> 00:15:34,120
rule only applies when metal wireway is used as a pullbox.

317
00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:37,799
But the sheer fact that you're pulling conductors through it,

318
00:15:38,279 --> 00:15:41,559
whether you use it or not for a pull itself,

319
00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,120
it's still a pullbox, Okay, as far as those those

320
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,879
are concerned. So here's what it says. It says, we're

321
00:15:48,919 --> 00:15:53,440
in insulated conductors of four awg or larger are pulled.

322
00:15:53,759 --> 00:15:57,840
Listen to how it says pulled through a wire way, right,

323
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,600
it says, And remember, the title is one thing, it's charge.

324
00:16:00,639 --> 00:16:03,519
It kind of sets the tone. But the code language

325
00:16:03,559 --> 00:16:06,960
is the code language. And I'm reading you the code language. Okay,

326
00:16:07,039 --> 00:16:11,120
not just the header, but the language. It says again,

327
00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,480
where insulated conductors of four and larger are pulled through

328
00:16:14,519 --> 00:16:23,200
a wireway, Comma, the distance between raceway and cable entry

329
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:28,200
enclosing the same conductors shall not be less than that

330
00:16:28,279 --> 00:16:31,720
means they're coming in and passing straight through into another

331
00:16:31,799 --> 00:16:36,000
wiring method okay, another raceway whatnot or cable assembly. It

332
00:16:36,039 --> 00:16:40,759
says shall not be less than that required by three

333
00:16:40,879 --> 00:16:44,000
fourteen dot twenty eight A one for straight pulls, which

334
00:16:44,039 --> 00:16:48,320
is eight times and three fourteen dot twenty eight A two.

335
00:16:48,519 --> 00:16:51,320
Speaker 1: Which is six times for ingle polls.

336
00:16:51,799 --> 00:16:56,759
Speaker 2: Okay, where transposing cable sizes into a raceway size the

337
00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:01,080
minimum metric designator or trade size raceway required for the

338
00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,359
number and size conductors in the cable shall be used.

339
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,480
So that basically means that if you're using an MC cable,

340
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,720
look at the number of conductors, look at what insulated conductor,

341
00:17:10,839 --> 00:17:13,440
look what's in there, and then do a calculation as

342
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,039
if it was a raceway. You can choose whichever one

343
00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,119
you want, okay, but you find a raceway and to

344
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,880
make sure that that's what's going to basically give you

345
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,519
the size trade size, like if it was a raceway,

346
00:17:25,519 --> 00:17:27,359
even though it's an MC and that doesn't come in

347
00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:29,799
trade sizes like that, you don't do it the same way.

348
00:17:30,279 --> 00:17:33,240
But if all the conductors in an MC cable, let's

349
00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:38,839
say we're being used in this box going through this

350
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,599
wireway and it was MC, and you're trying to do

351
00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:44,720
the numbers in order to meet the eight times or

352
00:17:44,759 --> 00:17:46,799
six times depending in this case would just be eight

353
00:17:46,799 --> 00:17:49,480
times because it's a straight through pool, then you would

354
00:17:49,519 --> 00:17:52,440
determine what would be the size raceway and usually we

355
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,279
would use the same size of the raceway I it's

356
00:17:56,279 --> 00:17:58,480
coming in. Like, for example, if it was EMT coming in,

357
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:00,799
but it was MC going out, then we're going to

358
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,200
basically calculate it out on what would be the minimum

359
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:08,400
size raceway if it was EMT, because that's what's feeding it. Now,

360
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,920
if it's all EMC coming in and MC going out,

361
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,119
then you just have to pick and say, Okay, I'm

362
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,039
going to use EMT and I want to find out

363
00:18:16,079 --> 00:18:18,599
what would be the minimum size I would need to

364
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,160
be able to hold all these conductors and not exceed

365
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,839
the forty percent fill, and then that's the size raceway

366
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:25,400
I go with.

367
00:18:25,759 --> 00:18:26,559
Speaker 1: And I would do that.

368
00:18:26,519 --> 00:18:30,680
Speaker 2: Times eight, and that's my dimension, okay, Or in this case,

369
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:32,559
since it would be MC, then it wouldn't be a

370
00:18:32,599 --> 00:18:34,799
straight through, it would be splices, so it'd be six

371
00:18:34,839 --> 00:18:36,440
times obviously in that example.

372
00:18:36,519 --> 00:18:37,599
Speaker 1: But you get the point.

373
00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:43,680
Speaker 2: So it's my opinion that regardless if you if you

374
00:18:44,079 --> 00:18:48,039
transpose and you put a wireway in between a run

375
00:18:48,759 --> 00:18:51,680
and your only effort is to pull straight through that

376
00:18:52,039 --> 00:18:55,440
wire way, then I believe that it is being used

377
00:18:55,599 --> 00:18:58,359
as a pullbox. You do have the ability to pull

378
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,240
it from there. Okay, that's what I believe, all right.

379
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,359
So as a result, I think you have to meet

380
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:10,359
the requirements of three fourteen twenty eight a one or

381
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,440
eight two, the eight times or the six times, whether

382
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,240
your angle or splices or you're.

383
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:15,880
Speaker 1: Straight as eight.

384
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,720
Speaker 2: And so adding the pullbox and saying or adding the

385
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,640
box or in this case the wireway and saying, well,

386
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:25,759
I'm not using it, then what did you put it

387
00:19:25,799 --> 00:19:26,240
there for?

388
00:19:26,759 --> 00:19:28,000
Speaker 1: I mean, what's the purpose.

389
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,400
Speaker 2: If the conductors are passing through it, then they're being

390
00:19:32,519 --> 00:19:36,680
pulled through the box. So your only argument to an

391
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:41,359
HJ is obviously if you put this this wireway in there,

392
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,119
and in this case it was a twelve x twelve,

393
00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:46,039
which I don't believe is going to be adequate because

394
00:19:46,079 --> 00:19:48,359
if you follow the rules again he said it was

395
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,079
a three point five or three and a half, So

396
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,960
three point five times eight, it needed to be at

397
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,640
least twenty eight inches in straight from top to bottom.

398
00:19:57,759 --> 00:20:01,359
Not the width okay, because there was no pulls mentioned

399
00:20:01,559 --> 00:20:04,839
anything like that. So in this case, it's just the

400
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,319
width of it is to accommodate the raceways, and the

401
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,920
depth of it was to a commodate the raceways.

402
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:11,759
Speaker 1: And the locknuts or whatnot.

403
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,319
Speaker 2: Right, So this case, it was a straight pull through.

404
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,720
So I think that your your box, your your wireway,

405
00:20:19,839 --> 00:20:22,799
whether you intend to use it as a pullbox or not.

406
00:20:23,759 --> 00:20:25,839
It is my belief that that still has to meet

407
00:20:25,839 --> 00:20:28,440
the requirements. And that's why it makes references back to

408
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,000
three fourteen twenty eight, whereas you get the A one

409
00:20:31,039 --> 00:20:31,519
and A two.

410
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,079
Speaker 1: I think that's the intent personally.

411
00:20:34,599 --> 00:20:37,000
Speaker 2: And in researching it and looking at a little bit

412
00:20:37,079 --> 00:20:40,359
from other people that I know and looking at that,

413
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,720
they kind of gel with the same kind of interpretation.

414
00:20:43,839 --> 00:20:47,200
And I'm giving for that. You can agree to disagree.

415
00:20:48,039 --> 00:20:50,359
You know, again, it falls back to me. It falls

416
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,839
back on the question what did you put the what

417
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,039
did you put the wireway in? Therefore, if you're coming

418
00:20:56,079 --> 00:20:58,279
in with the three and a half or yea three

419
00:20:58,319 --> 00:21:00,799
point five or trade size three and a half coming

420
00:21:00,799 --> 00:21:03,039
into the top and coming straight out the bottom, even

421
00:21:03,079 --> 00:21:06,759
if it's a nipple eighteen inches, the question is what.

422
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,359
Speaker 1: Did you put that box in? Four?

423
00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,920
Speaker 2: So if they're insulated for gauging larger, then to me,

424
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,839
you're putting it in as a perceived pullbox.

425
00:21:16,839 --> 00:21:19,200
Speaker 1: Whether you use it or not, it's going to have

426
00:21:19,279 --> 00:21:20,240
to be perceived that way.

427
00:21:20,279 --> 00:21:22,920
Speaker 2: And I don't know any other way that the electrical

428
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,480
inspector can't look at it. I mean, especially if it's

429
00:21:26,519 --> 00:21:29,079
not put in there. For example, like I said earlier,

430
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:31,960
people put boxes in when they know that they're going

431
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,039
to have more than three hundred and sixty degrees worth

432
00:21:34,079 --> 00:21:36,240
of bins between pull points. So what do they do

433
00:21:36,799 --> 00:21:38,839
They put in a pull point. They'll put it in

434
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,039
now whether they use it or not or pass right

435
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,519
through it, pull it. They probably aren't going to use it,

436
00:21:44,279 --> 00:21:46,880
but it still would need to be the proper size

437
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,759
regardless because it could be used as a pull point.

438
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:52,200
Speaker 1: Right.

439
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:53,920
Speaker 2: So at the end of the day, I think the

440
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,920
you know, AHJ inspector's going to have to make the

441
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,799
call and say, you know what, it is plausible to

442
00:21:59,839 --> 00:22:01,279
be considered a pullbox.

443
00:22:01,319 --> 00:22:03,319
Speaker 1: You are definitely pulling conductors through it.

444
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,279
Speaker 2: I don't control what you do after I'm not here,

445
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,240
so it looks to me and so it doesn't meet

446
00:22:10,279 --> 00:22:13,400
the dimensions that are required for a pullbox in this situation.

447
00:22:14,599 --> 00:22:17,559
So again that's where I think that most of the

448
00:22:17,599 --> 00:22:19,319
age j's are going to lean in the box is

449
00:22:19,319 --> 00:22:22,599
too small or the wire way is too small. Okay,

450
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,599
all right, hopefully, I answered that question. That's my opinion.

451
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,759
You can agree to disagree, but that's my position on it.

452
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,440
I believe that you are going to have to follow

453
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,759
the requirements as if it was indeed being used as

454
00:22:36,799 --> 00:22:40,200
a pullbox that type of thing. Okay, all right, that's

455
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,680
my opinion. You can agree to disagree. What's next. Okay,

456
00:22:43,799 --> 00:22:48,039
So the next one we've got here is one that's

457
00:22:48,079 --> 00:22:51,359
actually asking for my opinion, So I will give an opinion.

458
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,759
I will say up front on this one, just so

459
00:22:55,039 --> 00:22:58,480
you know, I am not an expert in HVAC equipment.

460
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:03,920
I am not an expert in the HVAC standards like yeah,

461
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,880
UL nineteen ninety five. I don't have anything to do

462
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,319
with that industry, Okay, So this is just asking me

463
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,359
a question, and so I can only answer it based

464
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,200
on what I know from the NEC. And there seems

465
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,759
like there's a mechanical industry, the HVA industry, that has

466
00:23:19,799 --> 00:23:24,200
a disconnect pun intended with what we do. So let's

467
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,359
talk about it real quick. So here's the question that

468
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:31,720
says Ee from New Jersey here. I love the podcast,

469
00:23:31,839 --> 00:23:34,240
but I am a new listener, so I may so

470
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,119
my question may have been answered on a previous podcast

471
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,720
please point me to that release date and I will listen.

472
00:23:40,799 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I can.

473
00:23:41,559 --> 00:23:45,039
Speaker 2: Tell you, based on your question, it has not been

474
00:23:45,079 --> 00:23:49,799
discussed at a previous date, so I can only talk

475
00:23:49,839 --> 00:23:52,039
to you about what I know as of today. And again,

476
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:56,440
I am not up on other industry standards as well

477
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,880
as you may be as an engineer who may design

478
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,920
systems then you're looking at these things. I just follow

479
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,759
the NEC. I'm just an NEC guy. Okay, So that's.

480
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,559
Speaker 1: All I can follow in this scenario, So let me

481
00:24:07,599 --> 00:24:08,880
go and read it to you. It says.

482
00:24:10,599 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 2: Says I would love to hear your take on the

483
00:24:13,079 --> 00:24:15,480
sec R And for those that aren't familiar, that's the

484
00:24:15,559 --> 00:24:18,759
short circuit current rating that we typically see on electrical equipment.

485
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,680
You have a panel board inside of a cabinet typically

486
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,039
that you would have an SECR rating on the cabinet

487
00:24:24,519 --> 00:24:27,319
and in the in the panel board, and all of

488
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,440
that together is going to give you an SECR rating.

489
00:24:30,319 --> 00:24:33,079
And then of course you have like overcurrent protective devices

490
00:24:33,079 --> 00:24:34,920
that give you the AIC rating. All of this is

491
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:36,960
covered in one ten dot nine and one ten ten

492
00:24:37,039 --> 00:24:40,799
of the National Electrical Code. Okay, that's to the extent

493
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,319
that I involve myself when it comes to this type

494
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,519
of thing. Okay, I assume when I purchase a piece

495
00:24:48,559 --> 00:24:51,559
of equipment that I know what the available fault current

496
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,000
is at the location where I'm putting the equipment, and

497
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:59,200
I get my equipment accordingly, I might have to specify

498
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,599
certain sec DR rating on a piece of equipment as

499
00:25:01,599 --> 00:25:04,599
well as a C rating if there's overcurrent protected devices involved.

500
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,119
I have to make that selection because I have to

501
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,759
be fully aware of what my available fault current is

502
00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:14,240
at any point in the system, especially now more in

503
00:25:14,319 --> 00:25:17,119
the NEC as it expands out for us to require

504
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:19,640
labeling and all this type of stuff in order to

505
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,119
be able to tell somebody what the SECR rating is,

506
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,960
what the AIC ratings is, which available fault current rating is.

507
00:25:25,559 --> 00:25:28,880
All this kind of good stuff seems to be expanding

508
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,400
throughout the n NEEC. So manufacturers need to be more

509
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,079
diligent obviously on giving information on equipment, whether it's on

510
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,319
their nameplate, data sheetor whatever, because we're getting more and

511
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:45,440
more intricate and how we design systems, and the electrical

512
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,559
engineers that are having to design these systems are having

513
00:25:48,599 --> 00:25:51,319
to look at all these things, and sometimes certain things

514
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,000
doesn't jail very well with other industries. Okay, so he

515
00:25:55,039 --> 00:25:58,400
wants my take on this, and it's about the SECR

516
00:25:58,519 --> 00:26:03,680
rating for HVAC equipment. Now, he says, HVAC equipment usually

517
00:26:04,079 --> 00:26:07,799
has an SCCR rating of five thousand amps, and the

518
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:12,480
available fault can pretty commonly be higher than this for

519
00:26:12,839 --> 00:26:18,400
larger equipment. It says, I always called for fuse disconnect

520
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,559
switches to limit the let through, but what I am

521
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,200
learning is that there could still be a fraction of

522
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,200
a second where the unit sees the higher current while

523
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:32,359
the fusee clears the fault. And the right and the

524
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,079
right way to do this is actually requests the HVAC

525
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,799
unit to be listed with a higher sec already. That

526
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,720
is absolutely correct and in many cases, you know, we

527
00:26:42,799 --> 00:26:46,240
talk circuit breakers all the time and their minimum ratings

528
00:26:46,279 --> 00:26:49,400
and in series ratings and and and all this type

529
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,279
of thing. And we've also talked about that where the

530
00:26:51,319 --> 00:26:54,319
available fault current as it gets further in to a

531
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,799
structure will start to diminish, right because of impedance and

532
00:26:58,839 --> 00:27:00,480
the other things that it has to go through, So

533
00:27:00,519 --> 00:27:02,200
it starts to go down, so it doesn't.

534
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:03,039
Speaker 1: Typically get higher.

535
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 2: But depending on where this equipment's located close to the source. Again,

536
00:27:09,079 --> 00:27:12,640
can plan have an effect on the equipment. So the

537
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,680
right thing to do would be is to review all this,

538
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,319
look at the available fault current and it's just more

539
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:23,240
that the engineer is going to have to be aware of.

540
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,200
And I would kind of tell the electrical engineers and

541
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,680
you need to push back a lot against the mechanical

542
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,400
engineers and the manufacturers HVAC equipment if they're going to

543
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,119
be installed at a point in the system where the

544
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:38,039
available fault current can affect what might be a posted

545
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,039
SECR rating on a piece of equipment, or if it

546
00:27:41,039 --> 00:27:43,920
has an overcurrent device in there, an AIC rating on

547
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:45,680
a piece of equipment, we have to push back. You

548
00:27:46,079 --> 00:27:49,720
have to push back now when we think about it,

549
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,079
it's a real world problem, right is that most of

550
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,039
the HVAC equipment that I'm aware of, and what research,

551
00:27:56,319 --> 00:27:59,960
little research I've done, you have the commercial package unit,

552
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:05,799
it's the rooftop units, the VRFs and the VRV outdoor units.

553
00:28:05,839 --> 00:28:09,720
All of these are a factory and from what I'm seeing,

554
00:28:10,079 --> 00:28:12,680
and again I'm not an expert, but what I'm seeing

555
00:28:12,759 --> 00:28:13,640
is a lot of those do.

556
00:28:13,599 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: Come with an SECR rating on the equipment. At five.

557
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 2: At the five k va oka or five K five thousand.

558
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 1: Amps, sorry five thousand, gonna say VA.

559
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 2: Five thousand amps, right, And so I'm seeing that's pretty

560
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,839
common unless they're marked otherwise or less it's a specific

561
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,559
piece of equipment that's being made and have it evaluated

562
00:28:34,599 --> 00:28:39,640
at a higher volt amp rating. Okay, higher amp rating

563
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,720
getting a tongue tie today. So now the lower SECR

564
00:28:43,839 --> 00:28:48,400
rating is often a problem because it's typical for an

565
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,920
available fall current on commercial buildings, depending on where this

566
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,839
HVAC equipment is located, to be as high as eighteen

567
00:28:55,920 --> 00:29:00,519
thousand up to sixty five thousand amps for a specific

568
00:29:00,559 --> 00:29:04,000
period of time of this available fault current and assuming

569
00:29:04,039 --> 00:29:08,960
that the equipment can handle this. Now, it's typically what

570
00:29:09,039 --> 00:29:12,039
we look at is if we have and what they'll

571
00:29:12,119 --> 00:29:15,720
argue is that what we have is the main equipment

572
00:29:15,759 --> 00:29:18,000
that's coming in is typically going to have a higher

573
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,559
AMP rating, right, So you're going to have the SECR

574
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,079
rating on the equipment where the service comes in, and

575
00:29:25,119 --> 00:29:29,519
the overcurrent protected devices an AIC rating are going to

576
00:29:29,559 --> 00:29:34,759
be more than adequate to handle the available fault current

577
00:29:34,799 --> 00:29:37,599
from the utility that's supplied at that point and as

578
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,119
it goes downstream into the building, this number is going

579
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,039
to decline, right. So this is kind of one of

580
00:29:43,039 --> 00:29:46,559
those things where if your equipment upstream is series rated

581
00:29:48,799 --> 00:29:50,720
and so we have all this series rating on the

582
00:29:50,759 --> 00:29:53,279
overcurrent and all that type of stuff, then it typically

583
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,640
typically will trickle downstream. And it may be, and I

584
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,359
don't know the answer to this, it may be the

585
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,920
question needs to be asked to the manufacturer if this

586
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,960
scc R rating that they're putting on their equipment has

587
00:30:09,079 --> 00:30:14,720
factored in the fact that you have a SECR rating

588
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,000
on equipment that's at the service in the AIC ratings

589
00:30:18,039 --> 00:30:21,440
on various overcurrent devices will dissipate further as it comes

590
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,680
into the building, And the question is if they taken

591
00:30:24,759 --> 00:30:27,519
that into consideration when they did their five thousand app

592
00:30:27,599 --> 00:30:29,000
SECR rating on the equipment.

593
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: They may or may not know that.

594
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,519
Speaker 2: Answer, and it also does not mandate the fact that

595
00:30:34,519 --> 00:30:37,119
that equipment is probably not having.

596
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,559
Speaker 1: Anything to do with anything remotely near series ratings.

597
00:30:40,599 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 2: So again it's just me speculating because that's how it

598
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:49,559
typically works with the overcurrent protected devices and all that

599
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,559
kind of stuff when you did a series rating in

600
00:30:52,599 --> 00:30:53,799
a panel board, for example.

601
00:30:54,039 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: So I'm just.

602
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,359
Speaker 2: Purely speculating on that aspect. But that's a good conversation

603
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,880
that needs to be had with the manufacturers of this

604
00:31:03,079 --> 00:31:08,440
HVAC equipment. Again, the commercial package units, the CPUs, the

605
00:31:09,279 --> 00:31:15,680
rooftop units, the VRFs and the vrvs that are outdoor units,

606
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,559
all those types of things. These are conversations that really

607
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:25,880
do need to be had with the manufacturers of those equipment. Now,

608
00:31:27,559 --> 00:31:30,000
the one question I will tell you that why fuses

609
00:31:30,119 --> 00:31:35,039
don't actually solve this They may help the issue, right,

610
00:31:35,079 --> 00:31:39,079
but they don't necessarily solve this issue because if you

611
00:31:39,759 --> 00:31:44,799
select the properly selected current limiting FUSEE for example, now

612
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,799
it may mitigate the energy that let through, right, but

613
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,839
it does not, for any reason increase the SECR rating

614
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,160
on the equipment to which it's installed or installed in

615
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:58,039
conjunction with.

616
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: So while you may be doing this to solve.

617
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:06,039
Speaker 2: A problem, this does not change the SECR rating or

618
00:32:06,079 --> 00:32:08,240
that's on the label of the equipment in any way.

619
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,319
So this is just being a proactive step that is

620
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,160
being done by the design professional.

621
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:18,759
Speaker 1: And they have every right to do that.

622
00:32:19,039 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 2: And again they this is what this gentleman has done

623
00:32:22,039 --> 00:32:25,240
in order to mitigate some of the risk here that's involved.

624
00:32:25,279 --> 00:32:29,279
But I will tell you that that does not just

625
00:32:29,319 --> 00:32:34,960
because you install fuses in line, that does not increase

626
00:32:35,039 --> 00:32:39,039
the SECR rating of any equipment. In fact, most of

627
00:32:39,079 --> 00:32:43,119
the HVAC equipments and nameplates don't even recognize any fusing

628
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:48,279
in the field as a valid solution to increase any

629
00:32:48,599 --> 00:32:51,440
SCCR ratings on the equipment. It's not something they're going

630
00:32:51,519 --> 00:32:54,759
to take into consideration, right And if you go look

631
00:32:54,799 --> 00:32:58,319
at the various standards UL nineteen ninety five for example,

632
00:32:58,319 --> 00:33:04,839
for HVAC standards, unless they mandate something or stipulate that

633
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,640
a fuse in line or something like that will raise

634
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,319
the SECR rating, unless they give you some scheme that

635
00:33:12,359 --> 00:33:15,359
you have to do to do that, then the fact

636
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,279
of the matter is that you're stuck at five thousand

637
00:33:18,279 --> 00:33:19,359
amps and that's it.

638
00:33:20,319 --> 00:33:20,519
Speaker 1: Now.

639
00:33:20,599 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 2: Again, it may be a diminishing factor where you put

640
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,880
it on the system. And maybe while we're not seeing

641
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:27,880
a lot of issues with this, I mean, I'm not

642
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,920
assuming this engineer has seen a lot of these issues.

643
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,279
Sounds like he's mitigating it out by putting fuses in there,

644
00:33:34,839 --> 00:33:37,440
but it doesn't necessarily mean the fuse is going to

645
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,640
cause the problem. Because you before the fuse clears, you

646
00:33:41,759 --> 00:33:46,640
have a high level of this fault current that could

647
00:33:46,759 --> 00:33:50,119
still cause a problem on the HVAC equipment. So again

648
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,519
figuring out how the fusing works, but again that's not

649
00:33:54,559 --> 00:33:57,400
going to change the manufacturer's SEDR. So what you're doing

650
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,039
is you're doing something that you hope will mitigate the

651
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,079
risk to the best you can. That's about it. But

652
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,480
the manufacturers seem pretty silent when it comes to that. Now,

653
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,960
why it matters as far as the NEC is concerned, Well,

654
00:34:12,079 --> 00:34:15,719
the NEC one ten dot ten requires that equipment interruptive

655
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:20,480
capacity be suitable for the available fault current. Okay, so

656
00:34:20,559 --> 00:34:23,920
that requires it equipment and so at this point it's

657
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:29,960
in conflict with the manufacturers statement of five thousand amps.

658
00:34:30,079 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: Okay.

659
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 2: So again, next is the one ten dot nine that

660
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,760
applies to the overcurrent protecting device.

661
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,280
Speaker 1: But again HVAC units have built in.

662
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 2: Controllers, contactors, control transformers, all that kind of stuff that

663
00:34:46,079 --> 00:34:50,119
must be protected, not just a disconnect or a circuit breaker.

664
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,119
So the one ten dot nine is more specific to

665
00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:56,880
overcurrent protected device. But there are obviously other things within

666
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:01,519
the componentry of these units, these HVAC units that need

667
00:35:01,559 --> 00:35:05,280
to be protected. So a one, ten, dot nine does

668
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,480
not specifically address the internal or any other type of

669
00:35:08,519 --> 00:35:13,360
component that's built into the actual HVAC unit. Right now,

670
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,039
one of the things that we have to worry about

671
00:35:16,119 --> 00:35:21,079
is if you fail to coordinate any SECR rating, then

672
00:35:21,119 --> 00:35:21,719
what happens.

673
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 1: It could lead to bigger.

674
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 2: Issues, right and it could lead to where the available

675
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,159
fault current at this piece of HVAC equipment was far

676
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,639
exceeding the five thousand. Now, like I said, I am

677
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,880
I'm going to be totally honest here, I have not

678
00:35:39,159 --> 00:35:42,599
heard of any major issues here. I really haven't. Now

679
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,599
what could that be for? Well, it could be that

680
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,800
we just have solid systems that are not seeing the faults.

681
00:35:49,159 --> 00:35:51,800
We're not seeing an available fault condition, We're not seeing

682
00:35:52,119 --> 00:35:56,679
you know, these things that would bring question to the installation.

683
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,320
And that's not the resiliency of the of the of

684
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,639
the of the products. That's probably the testament to the engineer,

685
00:36:03,639 --> 00:36:06,280
you know, the design and the people that are installing it.

686
00:36:06,599 --> 00:36:09,039
Maybe that type of thing. They're just doing a better

687
00:36:09,159 --> 00:36:11,679
job now. But I imagine if you had a lot

688
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,880
more of events that took place, Uh, then you got

689
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,760
to question who's liable is it if the available fault

690
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,159
current was higher at the HVC equipment and it was

691
00:36:21,199 --> 00:36:23,239
only five thousand amps and somebody got hurt.

692
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,199
Speaker 1: Is it the engineer's problem?

693
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 2: And this is why this engineer is installing these fuses

694
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,679
to try to mitigate as much liability probably as possible.

695
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,559
Speaker 1: Is it the manufacturers of the HVAC.

696
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 2: Equipment that's liable? It's certainly you got a question is

697
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,360
it the installer? Because the installer needs to know what

698
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,079
the available fault current and if he's installing something on

699
00:36:45,119 --> 00:36:47,480
a system and it's far less than the available fault

700
00:36:47,519 --> 00:36:51,320
current at that point, it can he actually install it?

701
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:57,880
But it gets done all the time, right. So the

702
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,480
one thing about the designers here is they rarely ask

703
00:37:02,079 --> 00:37:06,280
for any SECR documentation from an HVAC rep.

704
00:37:08,159 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 1: I'm probably never do that.

705
00:37:09,559 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 2: They probably never ask the people that are going to

706
00:37:11,519 --> 00:37:16,360
supply the equipment and say, hey, what is your documentation?

707
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,440
What is the SECR rating? If I need a higher rating?

708
00:37:21,599 --> 00:37:22,440
What can I do?

709
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:23,599
Speaker 1: What can do?

710
00:37:23,679 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 2: Is it special equipment? It's you know, it's kind of

711
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:28,360
a kin do I tell people all the time? You

712
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,880
know with mc cable, you know mc cable people want

713
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,079
to run it in parallel, and they want to know

714
00:37:33,119 --> 00:37:35,280
why the equipment ground's not large enough. And I'm like,

715
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,639
because we don't make MC cable for it to be

716
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:42,000
run in parallel. You're choosing to run MC cable in parallel.

717
00:37:42,639 --> 00:37:45,880
We manufacture MC cable to be protected at its opacity

718
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:47,840
for the conductors that are in it as a single

719
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,320
cable assembly, not to be installed in parallel. That doesn't

720
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,840
mean you can't do it, but this is where you

721
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,960
run into the problems with an undersized equipment ground. Now, yes,

722
00:37:58,079 --> 00:38:00,239
we have some allowances in two fifty one twenty two

723
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,800
f that can help us do that by running a

724
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,360
single one and connecting all ends together and YadA, YadA, YadA.

725
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,199
We have some provisions that over the years we said,

726
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,760
you know, we got to do something because you know what,

727
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,480
we can't make a special limsey for everybody or a

728
00:38:14,519 --> 00:38:17,239
special trade cable for everybody, so we have to come

729
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,559
up with some allowances. Okay, same kind of scenario here.

730
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,880
Where this is a situation is the SECR rating has

731
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,199
to be what it is based on where this equipment

732
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,719
is going to be located. That type of scenario, so

733
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,599
probably should be designers should be asking the SECR value

734
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,559
or trying to get that from the HVAC people right

735
00:38:38,639 --> 00:38:40,519
up front, especially if they know that this is going

736
00:38:40,559 --> 00:38:43,199
to be an issue, and obviously this is an issue.

737
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:48,719
Next inspectors, now, the electrical inspector, you know, the task

738
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:53,119
they have in itself is evaluating a building and looking

739
00:38:53,159 --> 00:38:57,519
at everything right, But they don't typically stop and check

740
00:38:57,599 --> 00:39:02,800
the fusing and circuit breaker sizing and specifically look to

741
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:07,480
verify SECR ratings and the available fault currents at this location.

742
00:39:07,559 --> 00:39:10,199
They assume that that's been done. They're looking to see

743
00:39:10,199 --> 00:39:13,079
whether the fuses a circuit breaker are protecting the conductor

744
00:39:13,079 --> 00:39:15,039
because that's what it's there to do to protect the

745
00:39:15,079 --> 00:39:21,360
conductor and probably by vicariously through that protection, it may

746
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,159
also protect the equipment. But the real focus is to

747
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:28,320
protect the wire and the conductors right, So that's the overcroptet.

748
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,960
So that's what they're looking for, making sure that everything

749
00:39:31,079 --> 00:39:33,800
sized properly, that that conductor is still going to be protected.

750
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 1: So that's their daily job.

751
00:39:35,159 --> 00:39:39,679
Speaker 2: They don't go around thinking about hmm, this HVAC equipment

752
00:39:39,679 --> 00:39:42,639
has an SECR rating less than what could be required.

753
00:39:42,679 --> 00:39:46,400
And also it's an industry thing because we require certain

754
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,199
types of evaluations for certain equipment. But I'm not aware

755
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:52,639
unless I'm wrong here and somebody will tell me in

756
00:39:52,679 --> 00:39:56,800
a follow up post, is that I don't believe we

757
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:02,320
have an SECR mandates specificquickly driven in four forty two

758
00:40:03,119 --> 00:40:07,199
HVAC equipment. I think it just follows the normal electrical

759
00:40:07,199 --> 00:40:09,639
equipment and normal stuff that would be SECR. But we

760
00:40:09,679 --> 00:40:13,440
would argue that an HVAC unit is not electrical equipment.

761
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,360
It connects to electrical system, but it's not the same.

762
00:40:17,679 --> 00:40:20,719
So we cover the fuses, we cover the disconnects, we

763
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,039
cover the breakers, We cover all of those type of

764
00:40:23,079 --> 00:40:27,320
things which are electrical with an SECR rating and and

765
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,679
have to worry about in many cases available for all current,

766
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:35,599
but we don't think that much about the actual HVAC unit. Now, contractors,

767
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,480
you know, they may assume that the fuses fixes everything, right,

768
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,119
but the fact of the matter is that the let

769
00:40:43,199 --> 00:40:48,599
through still happens before the fuse opens, and so the

770
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:53,679
factory listed SECR is the controlling factor in again, that

771
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,360
is to allow a certain amount of current to be

772
00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,400
presented and not blow up the equipment. Well, if that

773
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,599
thing is only ready for five thousand amps and eighteen

774
00:41:03,639 --> 00:41:08,159
thousands getting through. Then that's going to get through before

775
00:41:08,199 --> 00:41:14,039
the fuse blows. Then you still pose a risk due

776
00:41:14,079 --> 00:41:16,320
to the components and everything is an the SECR rating

777
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:20,440
only being five thousand. Again, I'm not seeing a lot

778
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,519
of this in the industry. I'm not seeing a lot

779
00:41:23,519 --> 00:41:26,000
of failures that people are complaining and arguing.

780
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,119
Speaker 1: But there is a possibility for this issue, right.

781
00:41:30,199 --> 00:41:32,119
Speaker 2: So one of the ways that we can fix this

782
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,719
is that we need to specify an SECR rating on

783
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,079
any submittal. So any of that, ee, any of the

784
00:41:40,079 --> 00:41:42,320
submittals you submit in and you know what the available

785
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,840
fault kurt, then you need to submit for a certain

786
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,360
value and then let the manufacturers of the equipment say, oh,

787
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,360
we don't do that, or you got to pay extra

788
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,000
for this, or it's another evaluation for this because you're

789
00:41:54,039 --> 00:41:58,320
asking them to give me the rationale. And maybe they've

790
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,760
done some testing. We're in series ten and all this

791
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,199
kind of stuff, like with the regular circuit breaker behind

792
00:42:03,199 --> 00:42:05,960
a main breaker. Maybe they've done some testing. I'm just

793
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,320
not aware of it. Okay, I'm not smart enough for that.

794
00:42:08,559 --> 00:42:11,159
I don't I'm not that intelligent to be able to

795
00:42:11,159 --> 00:42:13,239
give you an answer on that. But when it comes

796
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:17,079
to the HVAC equipments, if it's posted at five thousand

797
00:42:17,119 --> 00:42:19,639
amps and it's being put at a location that could

798
00:42:19,639 --> 00:42:22,840
present to it the available fault current much higher than that,

799
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,719
then that seems a problem to me. So if I

800
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,280
know this is an issue, then I'm going to specify

801
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,719
an SECR rating on a submittle, just like we would

802
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,760
do for panels, just like we would do for control panels.

803
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,880
We're going to force the HVAC manufacturers to list the

804
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:46,079
equipment accordingly, right, And this might spawn change into the

805
00:42:46,079 --> 00:42:49,880
industry where the manufacturers say, Okay, we need to kind

806
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:55,480
of create these SECR ratings that are more in line

807
00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:00,280
with panel boards, control panels and all this type of stuff, unless, again,

808
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:04,119
they've done some testing where it's downstream and it supposedly

809
00:43:04,159 --> 00:43:06,519
dissipates out enough that it's not an issue by the

810
00:43:06,519 --> 00:43:08,960
time it gets to the equipment. Again, I'm not smart

811
00:43:09,039 --> 00:43:11,079
enough to know if they do that. I don't research that.

812
00:43:11,079 --> 00:43:14,599
That's not my thing, right, I don't daily think about

813
00:43:14,599 --> 00:43:18,800
that kind of stuff, and I'm not the smartest one

814
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,320
out there. There's other educators that may have a better

815
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,559
answer for that, but I don't have a better answer

816
00:43:23,559 --> 00:43:26,719
for that, and also at the end of the day

817
00:43:27,039 --> 00:43:30,639
document the available fault current. And again, one of the

818
00:43:30,679 --> 00:43:33,039
things that you're going to do if you're a plan reviewer,

819
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,920
ee are designing something is just asked for the information

820
00:43:38,119 --> 00:43:43,000
from the HVAC manufacturer to make sure that they have

821
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:47,639
accommodated the available fault current and what the rating and

822
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,880
SECR is at the location where this equipment is being stalled.

823
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,239
If you're concerned about it, because I'm telling you the

824
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:58,039
industry itself obviously have been doing this for years and

825
00:43:58,119 --> 00:44:01,320
not concerning themselves with it. Makes me believe there's got

826
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:05,480
to be something behind it that that the manufacturers say, look,

827
00:44:05,519 --> 00:44:09,440
we're series rated or something, uh on, whatever it may be.

828
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,320
I don't know the answer, so I cannot be that

829
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,039
much of a help to you. I just kind of

830
00:44:14,079 --> 00:44:19,800
gave you some thoughts on that, right it says, let's

831
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,199
see here, uh he says, I think this is a

832
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:26,840
massive whiff in the whole industry that is hardly picked

833
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:28,960
up by designers and inspectors.

834
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,079
Speaker 1: What are my thoughts, Well, those were my thoughts. You

835
00:44:31,119 --> 00:44:31,760
asked for it.

836
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,599
Speaker 2: If if if the available fault current at this equipment

837
00:44:36,599 --> 00:44:39,639
exceeds five thousand and the and the standard is five thousand,

838
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:46,440
then that's a problem. Does the NEC mandate fusing. Again,

839
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,440
depending on what the available fault current is and the fuse,

840
00:44:50,559 --> 00:44:53,159
it may or may not provide that level of protection

841
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,519
it's necessary. So the end, you know, is there something

842
00:44:56,559 --> 00:44:58,039
that needs to be done in the industry.

843
00:44:58,360 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 1: I don't know.

844
00:44:59,159 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 2: Again, I'm not smart enough in that field to be

845
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:04,320
able to know that. All I know that people are

846
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:09,920
installing HVAC rooftop units CPUs all the time, all the time,

847
00:45:10,679 --> 00:45:15,320
and I'm not seeing a big issue.

848
00:45:15,679 --> 00:45:16,760
Speaker 1: I'm not seeing people.

849
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,559
Speaker 2: I mean, look, somebody got electrocuted for caring in a

850
00:45:19,599 --> 00:45:22,039
cross space on one hundred and twenty volt lighting outlet

851
00:45:22,639 --> 00:45:27,079
and that got into code. Somebody got hurt leaning over

852
00:45:27,119 --> 00:45:31,320
an outdoor HVAC unit and that's what spawned two ten

853
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:33,599
dot eight f to we have GFCI protections, you know

854
00:45:33,639 --> 00:45:34,119
what I'm saying.

855
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:36,760
Speaker 1: People got shocked by.

856
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:40,199
Speaker 2: Dispposably ranges and ovens or whatnot, and that spawned the

857
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:41,840
change for GFCI expansion.

858
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know.

859
00:45:44,119 --> 00:45:46,280
Speaker 2: I don't know enough about this topic to say that

860
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:47,719
this is a big issue.

861
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 1: But I can tell you just on the surface.

862
00:45:51,159 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 2: If the available fault current at an HVAC unit is

863
00:45:55,039 --> 00:45:59,559
eighteen thousand amps and your SCCR rating for the equipment

864
00:45:59,639 --> 00:46:04,679
is only five thousand amps, that's a problem. And if

865
00:46:04,679 --> 00:46:09,239
putting a fuse on it can help mitigate it to extent. Okay,

866
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,639
maybe that'll work. But because of how those fuses are

867
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,760
rated that type of thing, there's still gonna be a

868
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:18,079
certain amount of let through that gets through that could

869
00:46:18,119 --> 00:46:21,199
cause a problem. Hey, it may not cause the equipment

870
00:46:21,199 --> 00:46:23,519
to blow up, and maybe that's the effort, maybe that's

871
00:46:23,559 --> 00:46:28,800
the goal. But again, this engineer puts disconnects, which is

872
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:32,840
probably you know, an extra element that that that you know,

873
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:34,159
helps them sleep at night.

874
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:37,039
Speaker 1: I don't Hey, I'm all for it.

875
00:46:38,159 --> 00:46:42,119
Speaker 2: Maybe something should be submitted, but it is a it

876
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:44,840
is a fact that that amount of let current let

877
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:50,159
through current instantly before the fuse blows could be exceedingly

878
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,920
higher than the rating of the equipment and then calls

879
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:56,920
the equipment to to have a problem burn or burn up.

880
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 1: Again, I don't know enough on it.

881
00:46:58,599 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 2: How quickly what the let through The reaction time is

882
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:06,320
very quick with an overcurrent protective device, so it may

883
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:08,760
be that that mitigates it down. If anybody out there

884
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:13,840
knows deeper than that, please let me know. And I

885
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,559
think one of the biggest I guess one of the

886
00:47:16,559 --> 00:47:20,559
biggest things that we have to understand is we're still

887
00:47:20,599 --> 00:47:24,519
sitting on a violation. We're still violating one ten dot ten.

888
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:28,840
So even though you're adding current limited fuses or circuit breakers,

889
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:32,159
and it can limit the energy the let through energy,

890
00:47:33,159 --> 00:47:37,119
but the key crux here is that doing so is

891
00:47:37,159 --> 00:47:40,440
something that you're doing as an engineer and it does

892
00:47:40,559 --> 00:47:44,360
not legally raise any SECR rating of the equipment itself

893
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:49,159
unless the equipment manufacturer tested and listed it with that

894
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:53,519
specific fusor circuit breaker and marked it accordingly to be

895
00:47:53,679 --> 00:47:58,679
something that does raise the SECR rating. Otherwise you're still

896
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:01,599
having a violation of NEC one ten dot ten because

897
00:48:01,639 --> 00:48:05,760
the equipment is exposed to available fault current above its

898
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:10,199
SECR rating. Regardless of that let through energy, it's still

899
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,119
gonna be a violation of one ten dot ten. So

900
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:17,039
adding to fuses because there's a lack in the industry,

901
00:48:18,039 --> 00:48:21,840
maybe maybe a solution, a temporary solution to a bigger problem.

902
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:27,480
Now SCCR for those that aren't familiar with that that

903
00:48:27,599 --> 00:48:30,760
is based on a maximum fault current the equipment can

904
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:37,400
withstand okay, without any catastrophic failure during the clearing time

905
00:48:37,559 --> 00:48:40,519
process of an overcurrent protected device. Okay, because you have

906
00:48:40,599 --> 00:48:45,000
this various clearing times. Now current limiting devices we can

907
00:48:45,039 --> 00:48:48,960
talk about, for example, like a class J fuses, RK

908
00:48:49,079 --> 00:48:55,000
one lt fuses, and certain mccbs, various types.

909
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:58,239
Speaker 1: Again, in some of those with adjustable trip curves.

910
00:48:58,039 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 2: Okay, they can reduce the is square t Okay, that's

911
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:06,119
the current square time's time that peak let through current

912
00:49:06,679 --> 00:49:07,199
gets through.

913
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:09,159
Speaker 1: Okay, that they can indeed limit that.

914
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,559
Speaker 2: But the first cycle of a fault, which we call

915
00:49:12,639 --> 00:49:16,639
the half cycle, okay, can be tens and thousands of

916
00:49:16,679 --> 00:49:22,800
amps before the fuse even opens. So many HVAC components,

917
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:26,960
especially the contactors, the control boards that may be mounted

918
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,920
on it, the transformers that may be integraled into the system,

919
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,320
they can fail in that first cycle when exposed to

920
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,360
currents beyond their design limits. Again, if they were limited

921
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:41,559
to SECR five thousand, Okay, even if the total energy

922
00:49:41,599 --> 00:49:45,320
let through happens to be reduced, it still can cause

923
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,320
an issue and still can cause things to blow up

924
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:49,719
and cause a hazard.

925
00:49:50,079 --> 00:49:53,760
Speaker 1: Right, So, as far as the NEC is concerned.

926
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:59,320
Speaker 2: In the UL perspective, ANYC one carries cares only about

927
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:04,079
the to total thought of total fault current available okay,

928
00:50:04,679 --> 00:50:09,280
not about energy mitigation, okay, it only cares about the

929
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:14,079
total fault current available UL nineteen ninety five and UIL

930
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:18,360
six sixty three three five DASH two DASH forty, which

931
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:21,159
again I am not familiar with. I pull that up

932
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:26,119
and doing some research that requires HVAC assemblies to be

933
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:29,639
tested and marked with an sec ARE based on what

934
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:35,159
they can survive with listed overcurrent protected devices. And obviously

935
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,480
the standard we've learned as the industry is five thousand amps.

936
00:50:38,639 --> 00:50:42,920
Speaker 1: Right now, you can't just say I installed a fuse.

937
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 2: This engineer is doing this for his own you know, comfort,

938
00:50:46,559 --> 00:50:48,920
and I don't think he's doing this. But he's not

939
00:50:49,159 --> 00:50:52,960
saying I installed a fuse or I mandated you install

940
00:50:53,039 --> 00:50:57,199
a fuse. But you just ignore the SECR nameplate, okay,

941
00:50:57,519 --> 00:51:02,000
because the markings is governed by industry compliance.

942
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:02,679
Speaker 1: Right.

943
00:51:03,159 --> 00:51:06,519
Speaker 2: So again, the rating of the nameplate is what it is,

944
00:51:06,559 --> 00:51:09,760
it's what it was evaluated to, Okay. So the bottom

945
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:13,360
line takeaways that I want to think about is an

946
00:51:13,519 --> 00:51:19,559
HVAC unit marked five KA SECR and has a thirty

947
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:25,360
thousand amp available fault current that is fused with Class J.

948
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:29,639
That is not compliant. It's not going to meet. Anything

949
00:51:29,679 --> 00:51:31,519
to do with the secrate is gonna be a violation

950
00:51:31,559 --> 00:51:34,920
of one ten dot T Why because the SECR is

951
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:35,559
too low.

952
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:36,880
Speaker 1: Regardless of the fuse.

953
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 2: It needs a factory listing in order to raise the

954
00:51:40,519 --> 00:51:45,039
SECR value. Now, if you have an HVAC unit marked

955
00:51:45,039 --> 00:51:49,880
with thirty thousand amps SECR with a Class jfuse, guess

956
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:55,039
what that's compliant. Why because the manufacturer has tested with

957
00:51:55,159 --> 00:51:59,639
a Class J okay, and the proper SECR markings are

958
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:00,679
on the enclosure.

959
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:02,360
Speaker 1: That would be compliant.

960
00:52:03,039 --> 00:52:06,159
Speaker 2: Now if I have an HVAC unit marked for five

961
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,920
k or five thousand amps SECR and it has a

962
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:13,760
low available fault current at four thousand amps based on

963
00:52:14,159 --> 00:52:17,360
you know, how far it progresses into the building or

964
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,559
into the structure where the available fault current drops, well,

965
00:52:20,639 --> 00:52:24,400
then that's okay. Because that fault current is within the SECR.

966
00:52:24,599 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 1: That's not an issue.

967
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:27,679
Speaker 2: So I think a lot of this and you say

968
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:31,239
five thousand is too low. It's really going to be

969
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:34,960
dependent on where it's installed into the system and I

970
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:37,639
think a lot of this HVAC industry thinks, well, look,

971
00:52:37,639 --> 00:52:39,400
it's coming in through the service, it's going into the

972
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:41,840
main panel, it's probably hitting a feeder, it's coming out,

973
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:43,719
then it's going to it's.

974
00:52:43,519 --> 00:52:45,760
Speaker 1: Traveling further into the building.

975
00:52:46,199 --> 00:52:49,760
Speaker 2: And that's probably why the five thousand amps has always

976
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:50,400
been adequate.

977
00:52:50,599 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't do these testing, so I

978
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:53,880
don't I can't say that.

979
00:52:54,519 --> 00:52:58,679
Speaker 2: Now field fusing without the SECR markings increase means you

980
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:01,719
just putting a fuse in it. It still doesn't make

981
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:05,519
it compliant, right because the SECR is still limited by

982
00:53:05,559 --> 00:53:11,920
the name plate rating. That that's that's the deal. Okay, Now, practicalness,

983
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:16,760
you can mitigate energy with current limiting fuses to reduce

984
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:21,920
the damage overall damage to people prop you know, people

985
00:53:22,079 --> 00:53:26,079
involved in it, right, but you cannot claim that it's

986
00:53:26,119 --> 00:53:31,920
code compliant on SECR unless the name plate actually says

987
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:33,159
it is so.

988
00:53:33,159 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 1: So no adding of the fuses is going to change

989
00:53:35,639 --> 00:53:37,559
any of that in the equation. Right.

990
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 2: So the big question that people ask me, or will

991
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:43,400
ask me this gentleman may ask me.

992
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:46,800
Speaker 1: Is well, do fuses of circubrators hurt anything?

993
00:53:48,199 --> 00:53:49,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, as long as you're not claiming to change the

994
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:53,880
SECR rating, and you've done an evaluation in the available

995
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:56,440
fault current at that HVAC equipment is higher than the

996
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:59,559
five thousand, then putting the fuses in there are not

997
00:53:59,559 --> 00:54:04,679
going to do anything but probably save a massive issue.

998
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:07,719
But it's certainly not gonna save equipment. And there's still

999
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:10,800
gonna be issues because of that five thousand SECR rating.

1000
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:14,320
I can't tell you what the effects will be. I'm

1001
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:16,400
not sure like what will blow up and what won't.

1002
00:54:17,199 --> 00:54:20,239
But what I can tell you is that even if

1003
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:22,239
it's not going to change the SECR rating, and you

1004
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:25,719
know there's an industry issue, I encourage you to still

1005
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:29,960
recommend the fuses and circuit breakers as well because they

1006
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:33,000
will help because they're going to reduce the damaged potential.

1007
00:54:33,159 --> 00:54:37,480
Even if they don't fix the SECR compliance issue, they

1008
00:54:37,679 --> 00:54:39,199
will help address it.

1009
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:40,920
Speaker 1: Why well, because.

1010
00:54:40,679 --> 00:54:44,360
Speaker 2: Current limiting fuses and breakers reduce the peak current that

1011
00:54:44,599 --> 00:54:47,559
let through current during the short circuit event. Again, may

1012
00:54:47,599 --> 00:54:51,719
not save the equipment, may not save the contactors, the relays,

1013
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:56,199
the transformer, may not save that, okay, And what that

1014
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,440
means is that the severity of the fault on the

1015
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:02,880
equipment is going to be lessened, and it may be

1016
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:04,800
a replaceable thing. You may be able to you can

1017
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:07,639
place a transform you whatever that think. Okay, you may

1018
00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:14,159
prevent the explosion, the fire, or catastrophe or catastrophic failure.

1019
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:19,400
Even when the SECR is technically too low, it may

1020
00:55:19,599 --> 00:55:23,360
help in the condition. It's certainly not going to hurt it. Okay,

1021
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:26,360
So kind of And I don't know an example. If

1022
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:29,440
I think of a mental picture example, I think of

1023
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:32,599
it like wearing a seat belt in a crash. Right,

1024
00:55:33,039 --> 00:55:37,519
it doesn't change the fact that you hit a wall

1025
00:55:37,559 --> 00:55:41,760
at sixty miles per hour, but it reduces the chance

1026
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:46,119
of a fatality. So it doesn't solve the SECR rating.

1027
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:50,159
It's better than nothing. If there's a issue in the

1028
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:52,960
industry and your available fault current at the point we

1029
00:55:53,079 --> 00:55:56,079
are can exceed the rating of the HVC equipment, then

1030
00:55:56,119 --> 00:56:02,280
it would probably be prudent to add some currenting limiting device,

1031
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:06,719
circuit breaker refuse in the system in order to limit

1032
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:11,760
the damage, not totally remove it. Limit the damage. Right,

1033
00:56:12,599 --> 00:56:14,000
But at the end of the day, we have to

1034
00:56:14,039 --> 00:56:17,280
think about code enforcement. You're still going to get issues

1035
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:21,400
cause one doesn't care just about the reduced damage right.

1036
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:23,840
It doesn't care about that. You're oh, it could be

1037
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:25,960
less than it could be. It doesn't care about that.

1038
00:56:26,519 --> 00:56:29,159
It requires it equipment to be available to withstand the

1039
00:56:29,159 --> 00:56:33,039
available fault current without failing, which is why the SECR

1040
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:38,239
nameplate governs this compliance. Okay, it's been evaluated for it.

1041
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:38,719
Speaker 1: Okay.

1042
00:56:39,199 --> 00:56:44,440
Speaker 2: Now, in a lawsuit, okay, a post incident investigation we

1043
00:56:44,559 --> 00:56:49,840
call it, you can't defend it by saying I installed

1044
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:54,920
current limiting fuses even if the available fault current exceeds

1045
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:58,800
the SECR ratio of equipment. That's not a valid legal argument.

1046
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,480
You're going to lose that argument. So the best thing

1047
00:57:01,519 --> 00:57:03,960
you can do is say, hey, if I've got eighteen

1048
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:07,480
thousand amps here, this unit is ready for five thousand apps.

1049
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:10,679
I know that it's eighteen thousand apps here. It's ex

1050
00:57:10,679 --> 00:57:16,519
seeding its SECR rating. Mister manufacturer, do you have anything

1051
00:57:16,599 --> 00:57:21,360
that will accommodate eighteen thousand amps? If their answer is no,

1052
00:57:22,719 --> 00:57:25,519
then all of you have to make the decision to

1053
00:57:25,639 --> 00:57:29,519
put in fuses to at least mitigate some of the damage,

1054
00:57:29,719 --> 00:57:34,760
not remove at all, but mitigate it. Okay, So I

1055
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:36,880
kind of tell you have to think of this in layers.

1056
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:41,639
You know, like a cake right, whereas fuses installed. When

1057
00:57:41,639 --> 00:57:44,159
you have an SECR that's too low, the outcome the

1058
00:57:44,239 --> 00:57:49,599
equipment may survive, but risks still remain. Is that compliant

1059
00:57:49,639 --> 00:57:55,440
with one no, So maybe that's the compromise. The next

1060
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:59,360
thought is, okay, well, I'll put fuses are installed and

1061
00:57:59,440 --> 00:57:59,960
it is a.

1062
00:58:00,079 --> 00:58:02,159
Speaker 1: Proper sec are marked properly.

1063
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 2: Well, if that's the case, then the equipment will survive

1064
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:06,880
and it complies with the code and it meets one

1065
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:09,199
ten dot ten. And that means that you ask the

1066
00:58:09,239 --> 00:58:13,760
manufacture of the HVC equipment to increase the SECR rating

1067
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:16,320
on that equipment or whatever they have to do accordingly, okay,

1068
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:19,079
or tell you what you can do in order to

1069
00:58:19,119 --> 00:58:23,960
do that. Now, the worst case scenario is is you

1070
00:58:24,039 --> 00:58:27,480
have no fuses. So you, as an engineer, installing these fuses. Again,

1071
00:58:27,599 --> 00:58:29,559
I think that's the right thing to do. It's not

1072
00:58:29,599 --> 00:58:32,119
going to solve it all, but it may mitigate some

1073
00:58:32,199 --> 00:58:34,639
of the risks. Some of it still not compliant, but

1074
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:38,320
mitigate some of the risks from an engineer's design standpoint.

1075
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:42,719
Now you do no fuses and that sec R rating

1076
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:45,159
is too low based on the available fall current, then

1077
00:58:45,199 --> 00:58:51,519
you have a high risk of catastrophic failure, certainly not compliant, right,

1078
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:57,519
So bottom line, yes, fuses help reduce the real world risk,

1079
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:01,599
doesn't eliminate it. But bear in mind that the National

1080
00:59:01,599 --> 00:59:05,079
Electrical Code is a minimum safety standard. It doesn't mitigate

1081
00:59:05,199 --> 00:59:08,960
all risks one hundred percent. It's a minimum safety standard.

1082
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,599
So I definitely agree with the fuse in light of

1083
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:16,000
this is the case. But bottom line, no, they don't

1084
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:19,840
fix the compliance gap with the equipment. That's something that

1085
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:22,320
needs to be a communication with the manufacturers of the

1086
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:23,840
HVAC equipment.

1087
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:24,199
Speaker 1: Right.

1088
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:28,280
Speaker 2: So, practical reasons, fuses are better than nothing, okay, but

1089
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:31,840
for pure compliance and liability issues, you need to make

1090
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:34,920
the manufacturers come up to speed with this. SECR ratings

1091
00:59:35,199 --> 00:59:37,480
based on the location, unless they're saying that the five

1092
00:59:37,519 --> 00:59:41,440
thousand is based on how deep it is in the system,

1093
00:59:41,679 --> 00:59:44,760
where the available fault current drops rapidly as it moves

1094
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:48,280
further into the system, that type of thing. Okay, all right,

1095
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:50,760
that's a lot of information. Again, I'm going to argue

1096
00:59:51,039 --> 00:59:53,840
with everybody and say I am not the expert on

1097
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:57,559
these things with HVAC equipments. I'm just assuming five thousand.

1098
00:59:57,639 --> 01:00:00,280
I'm sure they make a higher SECR rating. That's just

1099
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:02,760
the industry standard, is what I'm reading and what I'm hearing,

1100
01:00:03,519 --> 01:00:05,639
and it correlates with what the engineer that sent the

1101
01:00:05,679 --> 01:00:10,000
question in. So my thoughts are recommendations. And again you

1102
01:00:10,039 --> 01:00:13,039
can say, I'm just saying, if there's nothing to be done,

1103
01:00:13,559 --> 01:00:16,840
it fuses or current limiting devices can help. It's not

1104
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:20,119
going to mitigate at all, but it can help. And

1105
01:00:20,159 --> 01:00:23,079
we're just not seeing a big issue in the industry

1106
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:26,840
of the faults blowing things up and this being the

1107
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:29,639
result because of the SECR rating of the equipment. There's

1108
01:00:29,679 --> 01:00:33,320
usually bigger issues or bigger fish to fry. How do

1109
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:38,599
you change this? Push back to the manufacturers if you're

1110
01:00:38,599 --> 01:00:41,760
worried about the available fault current at a piece of equipment,

1111
01:00:42,079 --> 01:00:45,320
even in areas where the NEC doesn't stipulate that you

1112
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:48,679
have to be aware of available fault current. Okay, I'm

1113
01:00:48,719 --> 01:00:52,039
just saying, if you're concerned and your design is concerned

1114
01:00:52,039 --> 01:00:56,039
with the short circuit current rating of equipment and where

1115
01:00:56,039 --> 01:00:59,719
they're located on the system, then you have to push back.

1116
01:01:00,199 --> 01:01:04,159
You have to push back from the manufacturers, and also

1117
01:01:04,719 --> 01:01:07,000
if it's a known issue, you need to think about

1118
01:01:07,039 --> 01:01:10,559
presenting public inputs you know, to the code development process.

1119
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:11,599
Speaker 1: I can't do that.

1120
01:01:11,639 --> 01:01:14,840
Speaker 2: I don't know that industry or it work closely with

1121
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:17,400
those types of equipments and when it comes to that,

1122
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:21,320
but if you are you are one of those, then

1123
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:22,840
you need to deal more with it. You need to

1124
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:25,239
get more involved. Otherwise we're not going to solve the problem.

1125
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:28,400
If there's a problem there, you get me, okay. Anyway,

1126
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:30,000
I don't know that I answered your question. I did

1127
01:01:30,039 --> 01:01:32,800
a lot of talking and I probably bored a lot

1128
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:35,280
of people. And again, you don't need to get nasty

1129
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:37,199
with me. I have told you over and over I

1130
01:01:37,239 --> 01:01:40,559
am not an expert when it comes to HVAC, how

1131
01:01:40,559 --> 01:01:43,079
they're constructed, what their short circuitcurrent rating is.

1132
01:01:43,639 --> 01:01:46,840
Speaker 1: I can only speak about what I know, and that's it.

1133
01:01:47,039 --> 01:01:49,760
Speaker 2: Until next time, folks, Stay safe, God bless and we'll

1134
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:53,840
catch you on another episode of Let's Ask Paul Peace

1135
01:02:00,199 --> 01:02:02,800
p boo.

1136
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:22,320
Speaker 1: Boo both no thing maskall, no thing boom