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Speaker 5: Maybe you are now listening to True Murder, the most
Speaker 5: shocking killers in True crime history and the authors that
Speaker 5: have written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK.
Speaker 5: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 5: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 5: your host, journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
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Speaker 6: true story of the world's premiere forensic unit recreates the
Speaker 6: genesis of Necrosearch International as a small, eclectic group of
Speaker 6: scientists and law enforcement who volunteered their services to help
Speaker 6: locate the clandestine graves of murder victims and recover the
Speaker 6: remains and evidence to assist with the apprehension and conviction
Speaker 6: of the killers. Known early on as the Pig People
Speaker 6: because of their experiments in locating graves using the carcasses
Speaker 6: of pigs because of their similarities to human bodies, necro
Speaker 6: Search has evolved and expanded into one of the most
Speaker 6: respected forensic investigation teams in the world. New York Times
Speaker 6: bestselling author Steve Jackson, the author of Bogeyman and Monster,
Speaker 6: vividly tells the story of this incredible group and a
Speaker 6: recount some of their most memorable early cases that, taken separately,
Speaker 6: would make great true crime books. Following his participate participation
Speaker 6: in a necro Search expedition to Russia looking for the
Speaker 6: remains of a Russian noble in twenty and thirteen, Jackson
Speaker 6: was made an honorary member of Necrosearch International in November
Speaker 6: twenty fourteen. The book that we are profiling this evening
Speaker 6: is No Stoned Unturned with my special guest, Steve Jackson,
Speaker 6: journalist and author and publisher. Steve Jackson and I just
Speaker 6: spoke to Steve a minute ago, and he was connected
Speaker 6: via his cell phone and had difficulties connecting via Skype.
Speaker 5: I won't even.
Speaker 6: Apologize because Steve will call back in regardless, So we'll
Speaker 6: have this sorted out in a minute. This is a
Speaker 6: book that was originally released in two thousand and two,
Speaker 6: and it has been released this year in twenty and
Speaker 6: fifty this spring with updates on all of the cases
Speaker 6: that were included in this book from necro Search International,
Speaker 6: and some interesting and fascinating updates have included. This book
Speaker 6: really talks about some of the groundbreaking forensic investigation tools
Speaker 6: outlined in this necro Search International that now, I guess
Speaker 6: have been creeping into common fictional stories and also a
Speaker 6: little bit into stuff like investigation discovery documentaries where some
Speaker 6: of this stuff, some of the things that they pioneered
Speaker 6: way back when at the turn of the century, have
Speaker 6: now become commonplace. Here we are with Steve Jackson. Welcome
Speaker 6: to the program. Steve Jackson.
Speaker 7: Either Dan, I can hear you on Skype, but I
Speaker 7: can't be heard apparently, so we'll have to go with
Speaker 7: it this way.
Speaker 6: Okay, well we'll do that. Then you sound fine, Your
Speaker 6: signal sounds great. I just did the synopsis explaining just
Speaker 6: giving a brief outline of necro Search International. Tell us
Speaker 6: how it came to be that you had the opportunity
Speaker 6: to write about Necrosearch International. Back in I mentioned that
Speaker 6: this book had originally come out in two thousand and two,
Speaker 6: So tell us about how you came to be in
Speaker 6: with this group and to write this book No Stone Unturned.
Speaker 7: Well. I originally ran into Necrosearch International when I was
Speaker 7: working on the book Monster. Necrosearch was involved in finding
Speaker 7: a murder victim, the main victim, if you will, from
Speaker 7: that story in Monster, which was Chaer Elder. She'd been
Speaker 7: buried in the mountains above Empire, Colorado and clandestine grave
Speaker 7: by her killer, Thomas Luther, and was missing for about
Speaker 7: five years. And a detective who was the main detective
Speaker 7: in that story contacted heard about Necrosearch. Didn't think much
Speaker 7: of them at first, you know, thought these were a
Speaker 7: nice group of volunteers, and you know, but he'd give
Speaker 7: a give it a try because he hadn't been able
Speaker 7: to find Sharer's body up to that point. So he
Speaker 7: contacted them and they went from there and they located
Speaker 7: the body and exhumed the body and the evidence that
Speaker 7: was around it, which was very important to the trial
Speaker 7: and the case. So that's kind of how I got
Speaker 7: started as I heard about him working to another book.
Speaker 6: Now, what I mentioned to the audience was that some
Speaker 6: of these things that happened and some of the groundbreaking
Speaker 6: forensic investigative tools that they came upon came about as
Speaker 6: a group was slowly formed from other scientific disciplines and
Speaker 6: including anthropology, botany, etymology, erology, geophysics, chemistry, and psychology, among
Speaker 6: other things. And so tell us about the origins of
Speaker 6: the Pig people and some of the first group members
Speaker 6: that identified that there was some and why the group
Speaker 6: was formed.
Speaker 7: Well, it's it's it's sort of how you you were
Speaker 7: describing it. It was slowly came together from almost sort
Speaker 7: of a synchronicity at about the same time. Now, some
Speaker 7: of the people involved, we were in the forensic sciences,
Speaker 7: such as pathologists and forensic anthropologists, and and so they
Speaker 7: were used to their disciplines being applied to this, but
Speaker 7: still they were It actually mostly starts on there was
Speaker 7: a place called the McCormick Ranch south of Denver, and
Speaker 7: rumor had it that the rancher down there, the mister
Speaker 7: McCormick and his son, uh, these homeless men kept disappearing,
Speaker 7: going down there and working and disappearing, and you know,
Speaker 7: we were some members of this group just who happened
Speaker 7: to they shared a love for Sherlock Home was in
Speaker 7: the Hardy Boys and all that sort of thing where
Speaker 7: we're watching television and the police had these bulldozers out
Speaker 7: on this property and we're just sort of tearing back
Speaker 7: and forth across the property, and they were thinking, boy,
Speaker 7: they even if they find the remains of somebody, they're
Speaker 7: just going to have disturbed the evidence so much that
Speaker 7: a lot could be lost. Plus, you know, it's just
Speaker 7: sort of haphazard. And about the same time, there was
Speaker 7: a geophysicist named Clark Davenport who was watching a different
Speaker 7: television show and it's had these police officers were out
Speaker 7: doing the same thing with a back hoe looking for
Speaker 7: a body that was supposedly stuck in a fifty gallon
Speaker 7: drum and buried somewhere. And he was thinking, well, geez,
Speaker 7: you know, I locate feris materials using some some miment
Speaker 7: my equipment all the time. I bet I could find
Speaker 7: a drum. So he kind of went out to the
Speaker 7: field and told what he did, and they they gave
Speaker 7: him a chance to do it, and they didn't find
Speaker 7: the drum that day, but they they found car parks
Speaker 7: and buried other materials. So the police saw the benefit
Speaker 7: of it and said, well, if there was a drum
Speaker 7: out there, he would have found it. And it just started,
Speaker 7: you know, kind of these these friends who knew other friends,
Speaker 7: who contacted each other, and you know, started meeting at
Speaker 7: Denny's for breakfast and thinking, trying to think of better
Speaker 7: ways to locate clandestine graves and apply all these different
Speaker 7: sciences sort of as a many headed Sherlock Holmes is
Speaker 7: what they eventually kind of thought of themselves.
Speaker 6: As It's interesting too that they all seem to have
Speaker 6: where a lot of these members seemed to have that
Speaker 6: Sherlock Holmes bug where they had had captivated their imaginations
Speaker 6: when they were young, and even though they went into
Speaker 6: the separate fields, they still had that common love of
Speaker 6: Lock Holmes and and solving a mystery.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 6: Clive Clark Davenport had something called and I've mispronounces, but
Speaker 6: uh a magnet magnet magnet magnometer.
Speaker 5: There you go, thank you, thank.
Speaker 6: You very much. So anyway, there, can you pronounce it
Speaker 6: one more time for me?
Speaker 7: The magnometer, and uh, the thing is, yes.
Speaker 6: Okay, now this magnometer, this magnometer was for for our audience,
Speaker 6: if we could explain this is that that what he
Speaker 6: realizes that using what they were trying to do, these police,
Speaker 6: they couldn't, uh, it wasn't going to go deep enough.
Speaker 6: It's not going to detect anything deep enough in the soil.
Speaker 6: So he thought that what it would be is that
Speaker 6: there's magnetic fields of the particular particular particles apart me
Speaker 6: in the soil, and you'll take on the orientation of
Speaker 6: the Earth's field. And when that soil is removed and replaced,
Speaker 6: as very much in the digging of a grave, they
Speaker 6: would note those changes in the orientation of those particles.
Speaker 7: Right, Yes, that's a that's uh, that's exactly the way
Speaker 7: it is. I think everybody has pretty much heard the
Speaker 7: the earth has a uh electronic fields and that circle
Speaker 7: it and they they tend to go in a certain
Speaker 7: direction north, the south, and and and uh, things that
Speaker 7: are in the ground take on the same electrical field.
Speaker 7: So if you dig into that until you start throwing
Speaker 7: it around, you throw it back in, it's going to
Speaker 7: be different. And what it is, it's called an anomaly.
Speaker 7: And it doesn't it's this isn't it. It's not looking
Speaker 7: beneath the ground and seeing the skeleton. It's it's looking
Speaker 7: beneath the ground and finding an anomaly that is of
Speaker 7: a certain size and depth. And and it's just one
Speaker 7: of many tools, uh that one you're when you're talking
Speaker 7: about the anometer can look a little bit deeper. But
Speaker 7: they also have ground penetrating radar which can essentially help
Speaker 7: them look beneath things like cement pads by balancing radar
Speaker 7: beams beneath the ground. And it does the same sort
Speaker 7: of thing that when you've disturbed the ground. It it
Speaker 7: has a different density. So you're going over say you're
Speaker 7: you're driving it over a smitt pad that's over some
Speaker 7: ground and most of the ground is of a certain
Speaker 7: density and or vel electronic field, and suddenly it changes.
Speaker 7: And this change is oh, six feet long by you know,
Speaker 7: two and a half feet across, and and you're looking
Speaker 7: for something along those lines. That's it gives you an anomaly.
Speaker 7: And sometimes there's several anomalies and they have to check
Speaker 7: them all out.
Speaker 6: And he had used he had got some of his
Speaker 6: experience in Vietnam used GPR too, sending electromatic magnetic waves
Speaker 6: beneath the surface. And so he'd used this to find
Speaker 6: out tunnels that were dug by the Viet Cong in
Speaker 6: in Vietnam, and.
Speaker 7: Some of the other materials. Some of the other equipment
Speaker 7: for locating mines is a combat engineer. So yes, they
Speaker 7: would look for the tunnels of the Vietcong or other
Speaker 7: buried buried weapons, buried materials, or mines, even the clear roads,
Speaker 7: and that's where the metal detectors can do that. But
Speaker 7: if it's very deeper, I would say, a cash of arms,
Speaker 7: they could look for those too.
Speaker 6: Now, as we mentioned, this was a slow progression of
Speaker 6: accumulating members but also learning as they made mistakes, and
Speaker 6: so Davenport worked with officers, but they still they learned
Speaker 6: quite a bit from some of the mistakes they made.
Speaker 6: So tell us a little bit about how they did
Speaker 6: go about that in terms of recognizing that they're they
Speaker 6: certainly were going to make some mistakes, but it would
Speaker 6: be a good learning tool for them.
Speaker 7: Well. In understanding the nature of a scientist or you
Speaker 7: know sciences is they don't really look at things in
Speaker 7: terms of all success or failure quite the way we do.
Speaker 7: You know, learning something is a success to them. So
Speaker 7: if go over a certain piece of ground and they
Speaker 7: get all excited because they thought there was a grave there,
Speaker 7: and then they find out, well, it was caused by
Speaker 7: maybe some water running beneath the ground or that not
Speaker 7: everything that looks like a grave is a grave. You know,
Speaker 7: they can you know, they don't really see that as
Speaker 7: as a mistake so much as this is something we've
Speaker 7: learned from. So next time we back at this, uh,
Speaker 7: will will learn And it said, take even the case
Speaker 7: of share Elder, they'd actually located the grave earlier at
Speaker 7: a time. Then then then they ended up excavating it,
Speaker 7: but they did so in the winter when the cracks
Speaker 7: that are in the soil and might and in this
Speaker 7: case they're using some cadaver dogs a system with some
Speaker 7: of the other means that they're looking for. Uh, the
Speaker 7: the scent was frozen beneath the ground. The dogs didn't
Speaker 7: pick it up, and so they ruled something out. So
Speaker 7: you know, they learned little things about you know, the
Speaker 7: time the wind to go out and where to look
Speaker 7: and and combining some of these these things that you know,
Speaker 7: the psychologists know about killers that killers don't like to
Speaker 7: go uphill with with a body, even though share elders
Speaker 7: killer did go up hill with the bodies. So they
Speaker 7: also learned that you can't always believe you know what
Speaker 7: the experts supposedly know.
Speaker 6: Now, the first case that you you point out is
Speaker 6: the janitor and the drum as it's affectionately called by
Speaker 6: these police officers with the sort of uh bizarre sense
Speaker 6: of humor doing this kind of work for a living. Uh,
Speaker 6: So tell us that they have a suspect, they have
Speaker 6: a couple of bodies that they're looking for, and all
Speaker 6: they have is a couple of witnesses say they witness
Speaker 6: the murder. So then Davenport and is brought in. So
Speaker 6: tell us a little bit about how that case develops.
Speaker 7: Well, he's brought in. This is this is the one
Speaker 7: he's he's watching the television screen and and sees them
Speaker 7: doing this and says, well, you know, I, I uh,
Speaker 7: I think I can do better, and say actually, sort
Speaker 7: of a humor story. If you knew Clark, he's he's
Speaker 7: the easier, typical scientist and doesn't really understand what how
Speaker 7: somebody else might be thinking. So he kind of wandered
Speaker 7: in there and said, hey, I hear you guys are
Speaker 7: looking for you know, uh, such and such a murder victims,
Speaker 7: and suddenly he had all of their attention and he said,
Speaker 7: you know, especially when he says, I think I can
Speaker 7: help you find him. So you know, all of a
Speaker 7: sudden he's he's part of this investigation when all he
Speaker 7: means is that he's willing to go out to this
Speaker 7: area and search for a drum. Now, that case in
Speaker 7: that particular time and that was, oh, you know, I
Speaker 7: believe that one. Yeah, quite a long time ago, right
Speaker 7: was not you know, they didn't find anything at the time.
Speaker 7: But I can say that that case is very active
Speaker 7: again now and they're they're working on it. So you
Speaker 7: know that's there's that uh you know, there's no statute
Speaker 7: of limitations on murder. And these these people, they can
Speaker 7: be real bulldogs when it comes to not giving up
Speaker 7: on something and willing to go back and do it again.
Speaker 7: So the infamous Janitor and the drum case may yet
Speaker 7: peace alved.
Speaker 6: Now the you introduced along the way you introduced as
Speaker 6: members are joined the group and with their own scientific
Speaker 6: discipline and also the police that end up cooperating with
Speaker 6: these people that are outside law enforcement itself and tell
Speaker 6: us about you know, their initial reluctance to work with
Speaker 6: some of these people I thought was humorous as well.
Speaker 7: Well, you know that you have a murder and you're
Speaker 7: the investigating officer, and you know you're going to get
Speaker 7: a bunch of calls from psychic to you know, have
Speaker 7: a feeling about where somebody is, or have a dream,
Speaker 7: or or somebody thinks they saw something and and or
Speaker 7: somebody believes they know which way a killer would go,
Speaker 7: and these sorts of things. So in most of it
Speaker 7: is well meaning. You know, you have people who would
Speaker 7: like to help police officers solve crimes and find the victims.
Speaker 7: So when you have this group of scientists who say, oh,
Speaker 7: well I'm a botanist and she's a naturalist, and he's
Speaker 7: a geophysicist, and none of us are connected to law
Speaker 7: enforcement anyway, and they call you up or or actually
Speaker 7: they don't call a lot, they get contacted. Eventually, they
Speaker 7: have let themselves known that they have this these abilities,
Speaker 7: they think and would like to try him out. And
Speaker 7: so the police a lot of times would come to
Speaker 7: them thinking, hell, boy, you know, I've been looking for
Speaker 7: this person for five years and I've heard about this group,
Speaker 7: and they're probably another voluntretier group that will give you
Speaker 7: the shirt off their back. But you know what kind
Speaker 7: of hocus focus are they gonna pull? Are they gonna
Speaker 7: pull out divining rods and find bodies that way? And
Speaker 7: it's not until you actually and this has developed over
Speaker 7: many years to where now when they come in the
Speaker 7: FBI or police officers and I go to a number
Speaker 7: of these meetings, I'm a member and that phone member
Speaker 7: now not just an honorary member, but you know, the
Speaker 7: respect is there because they come into these meetings and
Speaker 7: suddenly they're being asked what time of day was this,
Speaker 7: what was the light like, what was the weather like?
Speaker 7: What what is if they're buried in a in a
Speaker 7: car or a drum? What was is the fairs material
Speaker 7: made out of? You know what witnesses have said? And
Speaker 7: a number of uh, these questionnaires that the police leave thinking, boy,
Speaker 7: I I better go back to the drawing board and
Speaker 7: and learn more about well my own victim and my
Speaker 7: own case and come back to these people. But it's
Speaker 7: sort of they come come to these meet especially early on,
Speaker 7: with a reluctance and then maybe you know, looking at
Speaker 7: him something like doing voodoo and then leaving with a
Speaker 7: great deal of respect.
Speaker 6: Now, some of these original members again have to work
Speaker 6: on cases, or they're asked to do cases, and they
Speaker 6: want to do cases. And so you talk about again
Speaker 6: a case that would probably raise their profile and their
Speaker 6: credibility everywhere. And again an important infamous killer, Ted Bundy.
Speaker 6: So tell us what exact information that the authorities were
Speaker 6: going on concerning a particular victim and what they were
Speaker 6: asked to do on behalf of the authorities the authorities
Speaker 6: couldn't do on their own.
Speaker 7: Well, after Bundy was arrested down in Florida and facing
Speaker 7: all the eventually facing the death penalty, of course, he
Speaker 7: he confessed to a number of different victims and killings,
Speaker 7: and you know, some of this was probably to get
Speaker 7: attention from the police. And you know, he had an
Speaker 7: enormous ego, and and he also liked to taunt people.
Speaker 7: But one that had come out was a young woman
Speaker 7: in Bail, Colorado, the ski areas here, Julie Cunningham was
Speaker 7: disappeared one evening at kind of after after ski ski
Speaker 7: evening and and Bundy's talked about a young woman in
Speaker 7: Veil that he had met. He had sort of a
Speaker 7: had a fake cast on his leg and hobbling along
Speaker 7: on crutches with his ski boots and kind of spotted
Speaker 7: her and asked her to help him get to his car,
Speaker 7: uh and you know, and get his ski boots in
Speaker 7: there and all that sort of thing. And when he
Speaker 7: got her there, he knocked her out and he drove
Speaker 7: her west toward Grand Junction, Colorado, which is along the
Speaker 7: main interstate, and said he got out near a town,
Speaker 7: small town near Rifle, Colorado, and then took Julie off
Speaker 7: on a little side road that had a you know,
Speaker 7: he was describing the area. There weren't really any signs,
Speaker 7: and he raped her and killed her there and left
Speaker 7: her body there and told the police in Florida about this,
Speaker 7: and this got back to Colorado and the police and
Speaker 7: Veil said, yes, we do have a victim like that,
Speaker 7: Julie Cunningham, who disappeared one evening and has never been
Speaker 7: heard from again, same time, same approximate date. And so
Speaker 7: they this is one of the early early neck research
Speaker 7: times when they were contacted by the police and with
Speaker 7: a can you come out and help us? Uh. So
Speaker 7: that's how they got involved in that case.
Speaker 6: Very interesting that Some of the early members that came
Speaker 6: into the fold were a one Nelson, who was a
Speaker 6: bloodhound expert, and you also had a couple of members
Speaker 6: had Lee and Grady Uh. They looked at things like
Speaker 6: the best time again the guy had war experience of
Speaker 6: the best time to look at clandestine graves, so they
Speaker 6: had figured out the best time to look at the photos.
Speaker 6: And they also were using thermal imaging using infrared cameras
Speaker 6: because they realized that decomposing bodies gave off heat. Some
Speaker 6: incredible innovations here.
Speaker 7: Right, and and that's that's what's really incredible NEC research
Speaker 7: is that they're so they don't really have you know,
Speaker 7: well a human being to have egos, and you know
Speaker 7: that can come into it, but they are generally just
Speaker 7: very interested people. And so somebody will come to and say, hey,
Speaker 7: I heard about you guys, and have you ever thought
Speaker 7: about thermal imaging? You know that a decomposing body and
Speaker 7: some of this goes back to the pig sites that
Speaker 7: you mentioned at the very beginning, where they were burying
Speaker 7: pigs and out in this large acreage and studying both.
Speaker 7: You know how plants change when body decomposes there or
Speaker 7: when the soil is disturbed. They study scavenging what do
Speaker 7: bears and mountain lions and raccoons do. But they also
Speaker 7: do things like fly over the area with thermal imaging
Speaker 7: and see the changes in ground temperature as a body
Speaker 7: in this case pigs decomposed, so that they can use
Speaker 7: it on other cases and that some of these things
Speaker 7: will last for a long time since and for both
Speaker 7: the dogs or disturbances and plant growth out of an
Speaker 7: area that's been dug up, these can be years before
Speaker 7: they disappear, so that's part of putting all this together.
Speaker 7: And then rather than adjust the geophysicists going out and
Speaker 7: looking with ground penetrating radar, they'll have a botanist go
Speaker 7: out and check the plant life in a certain area
Speaker 7: to help narrow it down, and the geophysicists can come
Speaker 7: in with his equipment, or the bloodhound handler can bring
Speaker 7: the dog in and they all just work together as
Speaker 7: a team.
Speaker 6: Tell us about necro Search International as it finally got
Speaker 6: enough members that they could overlap all these disciplines and
Speaker 6: really be taken seriously by a law enforcement agency, and
Speaker 6: then they would be assigned to do something on their behalf.
Speaker 6: So tell us about their very first major challenge and
Speaker 6: success as a group.
Speaker 7: Well there, you know. They they for for quite a
Speaker 7: long time. They would they would go out and they'd
Speaker 7: have their make their efforts and and then at one
Speaker 7: point they were contacted by a detective Sheriff's office investigator
Speaker 7: out of Gunnison, Colorado about a young woman who had
Speaker 7: disappeared in Gunnison back in nineteen seventy six and named
Speaker 7: Michelle Wallace. And some of your listeners are probably familiar
Speaker 7: as this has been a case's then on HBO and
Speaker 7: Unsolved Mysteries and and uh forensic files and many of these.
Speaker 7: But Schelle Wallace had was a young woman, a photographer
Speaker 7: in the area, went backpacking and one day and came
Speaker 7: down the road to return to Gunnison from the area
Speaker 7: around Crested Butte, came across two men who were whose
Speaker 7: car had broken down, so she stopped and gave them
Speaker 7: a lift. And one of these men was named Roy Mellonson,
Speaker 7: who had recently escaped or not escaped, but been let
Speaker 7: go on a rape charge in Texas on a technicality.
Speaker 7: What she also didn't know is, and we only found
Speaker 7: out a few years ago, is that he had fifty
Speaker 7: days removed from having murdered a woman out in Sonoma, California.
Speaker 7: But anyway, Michelle picks picks them up and drops one
Speaker 7: of the men off at a bar. He was he
Speaker 7: didn't know this guy. He was with Roy very well
Speaker 7: thought it was a little strange that he said he
Speaker 7: you know, asked Roy asked Michelle for a ride, and
Speaker 7: and they left and Michelle disappeared. There's this Roy Mellinson
Speaker 7: became a suspect, but for men. There was a huge
Speaker 7: uh manhunt for her in Gunnison for quite a long time.
Speaker 7: And uh but she just feared Melonson, like I said,
Speaker 7: became a suspect. He had a camera that he hawked.
Speaker 7: He said he stole it from her and some things
Speaker 7: like this, but denied killing her, saying that he'd let
Speaker 7: her off and then he stole the car and her
Speaker 7: equipment and all that sort of thing. So this went
Speaker 7: on for many years, and then the Kathy Young happened
Speaker 7: to be going through the Gunnison Sheriff's office cold case
Speaker 7: files and came across a box. And in this box
Speaker 7: was a you some braids, hair, especially the entire scalp
Speaker 7: and braids of a woman that had been found on
Speaker 7: a road in the Gunnison area and it was suspected
Speaker 7: it could have been Michelle's, but even a search in
Speaker 7: that area didn't turn up anything. And of course they
Speaker 7: they wanted to make a case against Melonson. They thought
Speaker 7: they had quite a bit against him, but the prosecutors
Speaker 7: don't like prosecuting cases in which there's no body and
Speaker 7: no proof of death. Even though Michelle disappeared and very
Speaker 7: sad story, her mom couldn't take it in about two
Speaker 7: weeks into the search, killed herself and saying, bury me
Speaker 7: next to my body, when my daughter, when you find her.
Speaker 7: And so this lingering, sad story continued on, and then
Speaker 7: Kathy was trying to figure out, well, how do I
Speaker 7: find this body? I need this body to go forward
Speaker 7: with the prosecution, and she heard about nec Research, so
Speaker 7: she invited them in. They she actually sent the Braids
Speaker 7: to Neck Research and their botanists looked at some of
Speaker 7: the fur leaves and pine leaves and things like that
Speaker 7: that had been caught up in the hair and were
Speaker 7: still there, and was able to determine what sort of
Speaker 7: trees they came from, and that this particular sort of
Speaker 7: tree they can determine stuff like that grows on the
Speaker 7: north side of slopes, or grows in the shady area,
Speaker 7: or and and that sort of thing. So they necro
Speaker 7: Search sent the team up to u this this area
Speaker 7: in Gunnison and they began to do what is called
Speaker 7: a grid search. They you know, mark off a certain
Speaker 7: area and they essentially it's walking across this area looking
Speaker 7: for anything that's not normal. And if you think about scientists,
Speaker 7: a lot of what they do is observe and they
Speaker 7: are used to seeing what is different in any situation,
Speaker 7: and uh, that's how they've been. They first found the
Speaker 7: actually the one of the naturalists found the skull, and
Speaker 7: from there they were able to find the rest of
Speaker 7: the remains, determined that the sell had indeed uh been
Speaker 7: hill as opposed to just got lost in the forest.
Speaker 7: And we're able to make the case against Roy Mellinson,
Speaker 7: which had been going on for twenty some odd years.
Speaker 7: So it's one of those where you know, the bulldoggedness
Speaker 7: of both Kathy Young the investigator and then the work
Speaker 7: of Necrosearch International being able to find the remains and
Speaker 7: exhume the remains and find the evidence around it and
Speaker 7: that sort of thing made a case against him and
Speaker 7: he was convicted of murder. He has since been convicted
Speaker 7: in two thousand and eleven of the murder on Sonoma
Speaker 7: and is on a hold for another murder down in Louisiana.
Speaker 6: What's interesting about your book too, is that on the
Speaker 6: one hand, where you have the necrosearch international on, these
Speaker 6: people outside of law enforcement per se are brought into
Speaker 6: the fold and cooperate with law enforcement. But at the
Speaker 6: same time you stress in this book, as the detectives
Speaker 6: also stressed that it lots of these cracking of these
Speaker 6: cases comes down to, despite all of this technology and
Speaker 6: forensic advances, that it comes down to old, plain, old
Speaker 6: detective work. And part of that is that you put
Speaker 6: in your stories about the detectives and their investigation and
Speaker 6: targeting witnesses potentially, and you have someone named Chuck Matthews
Speaker 6: is very instrumental along with the detectives in bringing matheson
Speaker 6: or to actual to trial. So tell us a little
Speaker 6: bit about work of the detectives to look at Chuck
Speaker 6: Matthews and Matthews to come forward and be able to
Speaker 6: solve this case with the help of this you know,
Speaker 6: co criminal Chuck Matthews.
Speaker 7: Well, yes, neck re search would be the very first
Speaker 7: people to tell you that, you know, it all starts
Speaker 7: with good detective work. If the police don't do their
Speaker 7: job at the detective who comes to them hasn't done
Speaker 7: their job. I know of cases where they've declined to
Speaker 7: get involved because the detective comes to them or may
Speaker 7: have heard all these guys you know will work miracles
Speaker 7: for you and hasn't done his homework. And as I
Speaker 7: was telling you about those questionnaires and the way Neck
Speaker 7: research questions, detectives and agents and and that sort of thing,
Speaker 7: when they show up, it's pretty evident pretty fast who's
Speaker 7: done his homework and who's done who hasn't. And if
Speaker 7: they haven't, they will send them back to the drawing board,
Speaker 7: say check this, check that, check you know, all these
Speaker 7: sorts of things, get this information for you, and then
Speaker 7: if you want after that, come back to us. But
Speaker 7: they were they are. I mean, if you think about
Speaker 7: how connected the work of detectives is as compared to
Speaker 7: the work that scientists do. Scientists are are your ultimate detectives.
Speaker 7: They are they have a problem they need to solve,
Speaker 7: and they they find all the evidence they can and
Speaker 7: they put the evidence together and they try to figure
Speaker 7: out the answer to a theory, and that's what detectives.
Speaker 7: Police detectives are doing as well. So it's they actually
Speaker 7: in many ways think alike. You know, there are obvious differences,
Speaker 7: but uh NET Research insists that, you know, they give
Speaker 7: full credit to the detectives, and they insist that the
Speaker 7: you know, everything starts with the detectives. They are they
Speaker 7: are just one more tool in the in the arsenal
Speaker 7: for crime fighting.
Speaker 6: Now, tell us about Michelle Wallace and the trial, because
Speaker 6: I think this is obviously you can't get much more
Speaker 6: dramatic than the skull in the case, so I don't
Speaker 6: want to get ahead. But tell us a little bit
Speaker 6: about the further investigation, because Mellonson is really just the
Speaker 6: beginning of their investigation and they realize that he is
Speaker 6: capable and responsible for a lot more than they had
Speaker 6: originally thought. So tell us a little bit about the
Speaker 6: further investigation of Mellonson and the trial itself.
Speaker 7: Well as Kathy Young, the detective continues along. We believe
Speaker 7: now that Mellonson is responsible for at least eight or
Speaker 7: nine murders and probably many more than that. That's the
Speaker 7: number of women Texas, Louisiana, California, possibly Colorado, who can
Speaker 7: be tied to him and have disappeared or have been
Speaker 7: found murdered and in that sort of thing. So Kathy's
Speaker 7: a very good detective. As a matter of fact, I
Speaker 7: had had a beer with her last night. So it's
Speaker 7: a long time relationships with some of these people and
Speaker 7: talk about old times. But she's a very meticulous detective
Speaker 7: who stayed on his trail and followed him to different
Speaker 7: places and tried to put some of these cases, going
Speaker 7: to a certain area where he's known to live and
Speaker 7: asking the police if during a certain time did a
Speaker 7: woman disappear.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 7: You know, he's he's your your stereotypical if that's a
Speaker 7: fitting description, serial killer, and UH chooses the young women
Speaker 7: and UH basically has certain ways and patterns of behavior
Speaker 7: that he does. But he's very smug, very arrogant, you know,
Speaker 7: minimizes everything, has an excuse for everything, has a reason
Speaker 7: for everything. And the dramatic moment you're talking about in
Speaker 7: the trial is that he didn't know they had found
Speaker 7: Michelle's remains or all of them, and what they're going
Speaker 7: to do with them, and in the courtroom they had
Speaker 7: when he comes into the courtroom and the seated at
Speaker 7: the table, and they get ready to start the whole thing,
Speaker 7: and the prosecutor begins the opening statements. There's a square
Speaker 7: on a table and it is covered with a black cloth,
Speaker 7: and in a dramatic fashion, the black cloth is taken
Speaker 7: off and there's Michelle's skull. And it was identified as
Speaker 7: Michelle's because of her dental work, and there was no
Speaker 7: denying that Michelle was dead. And here she was in
Speaker 7: the same courtroom. And this this brutish killer, smug arrogant brute.
Speaker 7: That's it's just the only way to explain this guy.
Speaker 7: Suddenly his smile disappeared from his face and he was
Speaker 7: he notably trembled. This is someone he thought he had
Speaker 7: murdered twenty some odd years before, and and here she
Speaker 7: is brought back to, you know, figuratively from the graves
Speaker 7: point hint to point to him as her killer. And
Speaker 7: this is a man who, as I said, we believe
Speaker 7: has killed many women and would have been would have
Speaker 7: continued killing women he was in jail, but he was
Speaker 7: only in jail for some property crimes at this time,
Speaker 7: and it would have been out and he has shown
Speaker 7: that every time he gets out, women die. So there,
Speaker 7: in effect, his Michelle back from the dead in a
Speaker 7: way uh to condemn him. And that's what essentially convicted
Speaker 7: him and and has him behind bars. And and like
Speaker 7: I said, he was also convicted and for that reason
Speaker 7: he was Eventually his DNA was put into the National
Speaker 7: computers which linked him to the murder in California and
Speaker 7: linked him to the murder in Louisiana. So this this
Speaker 7: one effort by a tenacious detective in Gunnison who brought
Speaker 7: in these this kind of odd group of scientists and
Speaker 7: Sherlock Holmes fans and putting their everything together, brought a
Speaker 7: very evil man to justice. It's a great story. It's
Speaker 7: a it's a great story of justice triumphing over evil
Speaker 7: and good people putting their heads together and making it happen.
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Speaker 6: smarter today. When we last left off Steve, we talked
Speaker 6: about the great success that they had in putting this.
Speaker 6: You know, a person that had eluded the authorities for
Speaker 6: years and years. This Melonson and brought closure for the
Speaker 6: family of Michelle Wallace in this dramatic trial. Now, in
Speaker 6: terms of was I know that there was other by
Speaker 6: the time they took this to trial, there was other
Speaker 6: cases that necro Search International was already working on. But
Speaker 6: tell us what the success did for necro Search International
Speaker 6: and the media response.
Speaker 7: Well, first, for nec Researches, it was obviously a morale booster.
Speaker 7: They knew that there.
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Speaker 7: Their science should work that and that it should be
Speaker 7: it could be applied, you know, from a botanist who
Speaker 7: identified what's what side of the slope of a mountain
Speaker 7: to look for and the altitude some of those sorts
Speaker 7: of things, to the search patterns that archaeologists will use,
Speaker 7: say looking for an old Indian village, to the excavation
Speaker 7: that also forensic anthropologists will use to make sure that
Speaker 7: evidence is preserved, and those sorts of things. So they
Speaker 7: you know, they just knew it would work, but they
Speaker 7: hadn't had a real success yet. This in the media,
Speaker 7: it became a big story. Like I said, it's you know,
Speaker 7: with an HBO special, it was on Forensic Files. It's
Speaker 7: you know, you can google Michelle Wallace. What you don't
Speaker 7: get is the is the story of Kathy Young and
Speaker 7: her tenaciousness, and neck research is part of it. It's
Speaker 7: all sort of buried in some of that which is
Speaker 7: which is normal, but you know, it's it. It really
Speaker 7: put them on the map and suddenly, you know, other
Speaker 7: law enforcement people of course, are paying attention in there,
Speaker 7: and it's sort of do one of these things, whereas well,
Speaker 7: they found a murder victim from nineteen seventy six, and
Speaker 7: here we are, you know, twenty twenty years later. More
Speaker 7: than that, Ashley solving the case and putting a nasty
Speaker 7: serial killer away. So it brought in other police agencies
Speaker 7: paying attention to what are these guys doing and and
Speaker 7: starting to share things too. Uh. You start getting agencies talking, uh,
Speaker 7: the FBI saying hey, have you when they because the
Speaker 7: FBI will be contacted, as we know, by a local
Speaker 7: police agency saying you know, we we have a murder victim.
Speaker 7: We don't know how to find her. Can you help us?
Speaker 7: And the FBI might be started saying things like, well
Speaker 7: if you tried calling neck Research International, and and I
Speaker 7: and I should point out that neck Research only works
Speaker 7: at the request of the investigating agencies. They don't work
Speaker 7: for They won't work for a private individuals or or
Speaker 7: even families because they don't want to get in the
Speaker 7: way of the process and the process and and the
Speaker 7: things like chain of custom the and and and all
Speaker 7: of that. They work very closely with the investigating officers,
Speaker 7: and when it comes time for the law enforcement to
Speaker 7: take back over, you know, they step back and quietly
Speaker 7: go pack their things and go home, come back to
Speaker 7: the trial if they're asked to to testify. But it
Speaker 7: so it was be a morale booster. It did bring
Speaker 7: other members into net research, people who heard about this
Speaker 7: and said, hey, you know, I think I have something
Speaker 7: that may may apply or be of help. I mean
Speaker 7: everything from weathermen to you know, all these other disciplines
Speaker 7: that you'd never even consider uh as as something in
Speaker 7: forensics and so. And also it started bringing in more
Speaker 7: police agencies who are starting to get the idea that
Speaker 7: these aren't just magicians or or volunteers, that they may
Speaker 7: actually have something here.
Speaker 6: Now you include and we won't go as far as
Speaker 6: we did with the Melonson case, but I just thought
Speaker 6: there's some aspects of this Diane Title case. She was
Speaker 6: murdered in nineteen sixty six and it took to a
Speaker 6: nineteen ninety five to convict her husband. And also what
Speaker 6: I wanted to mention too is what really runs through
Speaker 6: this is, of course, the human element and all these
Speaker 6: people taking their and volunteering to do this and being
Speaker 6: greatly affected by the crimes themselves and the family's response,
Speaker 6: and seemingly their duty to do whatever they could to
Speaker 6: resolve these cases. And one of the cases, or pardon me,
Speaker 6: one of the members that really seems to be portrayed
Speaker 6: in your book as a very very important member is
Speaker 6: the A one Nelson and his dog Amy and after
Speaker 6: Amy dies, so tell us a little bit about the
Speaker 6: importance of A one Nelson in his Bloodhound.
Speaker 7: It's for one thing, that's a that's a an unfortunate
Speaker 7: type that's been corrected in the book. That's Al Nelson,
Speaker 7: but it's uh, he he he'd like to be referred
Speaker 7: to as A one. If he's listening, I'm sure he's
Speaker 7: chuckling along. But that was the book when it was
Speaker 7: brought back from the printing team. The printer recognized it
Speaker 7: as a one instead of an L and and that's
Speaker 7: slipped by our copy editor. But it's been corrected since.
Speaker 7: But it is Al Nelson, mister A one Nelson. I'm
Speaker 7: sure he'll start calling himself. But anyway, yes, Al Al
Speaker 7: is very important with his and his bloodhounds. And uh
Speaker 7: kind of an amusing story. It's my my dad's favorite
Speaker 7: story out of neck research, which is, uh, they were
Speaker 7: having a meeting and this person gets involved, gets introduced
Speaker 7: as a botanist, and this person gets introduced as a
Speaker 7: a geologist, and this person gets introduced as a you know,
Speaker 7: an anthropologist, and so they got to al and he
Speaker 7: introduced himself as a slobberologist because his bloodhounds and and
Speaker 7: so that's that's that's the sort of thing my dad
Speaker 7: gets amused by. But yes, he's very important, and he's
Speaker 7: and he's probably one of the best bloodhound handlers in
Speaker 7: the country and is well known both because of neck
Speaker 7: research but also just his work as a police a
Speaker 7: police officer just retired from the Sheriff's office. But you know,
Speaker 7: he's he knows his dogs and and is very good
Speaker 7: at what he does.
Speaker 6: As I mentioned, let's talk a little bit about the
Speaker 6: Diane A Title case and how it took this almost
Speaker 6: thirty years, but Gene Kitel was finally brought to justice.
Speaker 6: So tell us a little bit about this and the
Speaker 6: issues that were prevalent that were overcome by Necrosearch International
Speaker 6: in being able to prosecute Geenekiel successfully.
Speaker 7: Well, it's as you said, Diane Kydell had disappeared in
Speaker 7: nineteen sixty six, and shortly after she disappeared, there was
Speaker 7: also a fire in the house that ended up ended
Speaker 7: up killing two out of the three daughters, and there
Speaker 7: was a son as well. One daughter is escaped by
Speaker 7: actually her older sister laid on top of her as
Speaker 7: the fire was going on, and the boy called out
Speaker 7: a window. So Diane was gone. Two of the children
Speaker 7: are dead. And it's many years later when Lori Kydell
Speaker 7: comes forward and tells the police officer, I think my
Speaker 7: dad killed my mom and then burned down the house,
Speaker 7: killing a couple of my sisters, because he's worried that
Speaker 7: somebody knew something. But you know, it's one thing to
Speaker 7: have somebody coming forward twenty years later and say, oh,
Speaker 7: I think I remembered this, And you know, and I
Speaker 7: was four or five years old, and it was at night,
Speaker 7: and some of the memory was a little bit shaky,
Speaker 7: but something some of her details that she had seemed
Speaker 7: to be just too right on, to too vivid to
Speaker 7: just blow off her story. But you know, where is
Speaker 7: this body? And you know, if you go went over
Speaker 7: to the house, there was a large concrete pad in
Speaker 7: the back and a pool or hot tubbish sort of
Speaker 7: thing on top of it, and all this and you
Speaker 7: have to have you can't just go on to private
Speaker 7: property and start digging around. You have to be able
Speaker 7: to get a warrant and permissions and all of these
Speaker 7: sorts of things. So and then a reason why you
Speaker 7: are you're not allowed to just go on fishing expeditions.
Speaker 7: The defense attorney will tear that apart in trial and
Speaker 7: suddenly you have trouble. So actually, whiles they were waiting
Speaker 7: for the Melonson trial to come up, Clark Davenport got
Speaker 7: a call from a police officer who had been steered
Speaker 7: his way by I believe the FBI at that time.
Speaker 7: I'm a little fuzzy on that one, but he got
Speaker 7: steered down that way and went down there with ground
Speaker 7: penetrating radar. And this is another case of a police
Speaker 7: officer who you know, boy, I know these as far
Speaker 7: as what Knights volunteers willing to spend their time and
Speaker 7: do all these sorts of things. But you know, this
Speaker 7: is a six inch deep there, six inch stick cement
Speaker 7: pad and pross, you know, all sorts of pipes and
Speaker 7: stuff running under this ground. What are we going to
Speaker 7: be able to find? And and as you know, Clark
Speaker 7: grand the grand ground penetrating radar in the back. And
Speaker 7: you know, not to be a spoiler on too much
Speaker 7: of this, but it's uh, it's it's another one of
Speaker 7: the neck research success stories that has built there. They're
Speaker 7: legend up. It's you know. The the thing about No
Speaker 7: Stone Unturned is there's there's a collection of five or
Speaker 7: six two crime stories in there that are you know,
Speaker 7: each would make a great book. They're just uh, it's
Speaker 7: connected by this this eclectic, uh, wonderful group of people.
Speaker 6: Now you you talk about the FBI being involved too,
Speaker 6: and Davenport is doing some talks at Quantico. So everybody,
Speaker 6: including the Secret Service and the FBI and other jurisdictions
Speaker 6: are taking this necrosearch international very very seriously. What you
Speaker 6: did include in this book too, what I thought was
Speaker 6: fascinating is that is that and you know, reading so
Speaker 6: many of these books and you have read so many
Speaker 6: stories as well. Taking a five year old word testimony again,
Speaker 6: she didn't actually see her father kill her mother. She
Speaker 6: said she had heard a great amount of shoveling in
Speaker 6: the backyard. To her credit, how did tell us a
Speaker 6: combination of how she was so convincing and a police
Speaker 6: officer was so attentive and really objective in getting this
Speaker 6: story from a five year old to come to fruition.
Speaker 6: That's an amazing part of the story.
Speaker 7: I think, Yeah, it's sort of some of those things
Speaker 7: that she remembered. She'd seen her mom and dad arguing,
Speaker 7: as she said, and I remember my mom wearing this
Speaker 7: blue coat that I loved with these gold buttons on it,
Speaker 7: which becomes very important in the story later in that
Speaker 7: and I heard this and that, and then you know,
Speaker 7: and as the officer looked into it, it is, you know,
Speaker 7: people don't usually just completely disappear, even though Diane and
Speaker 7: Jeane Kitdell had a rocky marriage, you know, you don't usually,
Speaker 7: and particularly a mom who loved her kids. One thing
Speaker 7: that was clear to the detective was Diane Kydell loved
Speaker 7: her kids and wasn't likely to have just up and left,
Speaker 7: which was Jean Kitdell's story, is that she was seeing
Speaker 7: another man and just abandon her kids and left. So,
Speaker 7: you know, once again, it starts with a great detective,
Speaker 7: and all great detectives have a certain amount of intuition.
Speaker 7: To me, it seemed was like the really good ones,
Speaker 7: they're good at what they do because they're meticulous and
Speaker 7: they and they you know, you use all the tools
Speaker 7: at hand. But the truly great ones seemed to in
Speaker 7: the cold case guys in particular, seemed to have that
Speaker 7: intuition of what is real and what sounds right. And
Speaker 7: even though he knew this this woman, young woman who
Speaker 7: still had the marks of the fire on her neck
Speaker 7: and face, it had been twenty some odd years since
Speaker 7: this had happened, you know, there was just something about
Speaker 7: her and something about some of the details she remembered that,
Speaker 7: you know, and then he started looking into it and
Speaker 7: and did the research about you know, Diane Kidell was
Speaker 7: a good mom. I loved your kids. Everybody said that,
Speaker 7: and but had never been seen, no credit cards, no
Speaker 7: being able to find her social Security CA number used again,
Speaker 7: and you know the but the problem with that is
Speaker 7: it's okay, well, how do you prove she truly didn't
Speaker 7: just meet him in and walk off. It's not that
Speaker 7: it hasn't ever happened before. And maybe they argued, just
Speaker 7: like the little girl said, and she left that night.
Speaker 7: You know, the fire was suspicious, but it was sort
Speaker 7: of really poorly done investigation, so that didn't come out
Speaker 7: right away that it was being used to possibly cover
Speaker 7: up the murder of Diane. But you know, that's that's
Speaker 7: that thing with that necro search has to as good
Speaker 7: as they are, they have to rely on great detectives
Speaker 7: who have done their their homework. So that when when
Speaker 7: Ed Reynolds, who was the detective in Arizona, came to
Speaker 7: Colorado to talk to necro Search at one of their
Speaker 7: meetings and they asked him all these questions, he either
Speaker 7: knew the answer or he went back to Arizona and
Speaker 7: got the answers.
Speaker 6: It's interesting too that and it's a lucky break that
Speaker 6: the new the new owner of the home, the former
Speaker 6: home where gene Kaidel lived, was very cooperative, uh, and
Speaker 6: so allowed them to do things that they might not
Speaker 6: have been able to do if it were Jean's property, right.
Speaker 7: It would have been a bigger fight they you know,
Speaker 7: you would have they're getting the search warrant and and
Speaker 7: a judge to go for this would have been would
Speaker 7: have been tougher. And and who knows, you find the
Speaker 7: wrong judge and or uh gene kaidelgus the better lawyer,
Speaker 7: then suddenly you don't get to do it at all. So, Uh,
Speaker 7: it was good that they had cooperation on that, but
Speaker 7: it was still important that they couldn't They couldn't bring
Speaker 7: in neck or search and if Clark, say Clark runs
Speaker 7: the ground penetrating radar and doesn't really see anything. And
Speaker 7: then of course not everybody understood what ground penetrating radar
Speaker 7: does or sees or gives you. But you know he
Speaker 7: doesn't have this. Then some judge looks at it and says, well,
Speaker 7: you know it was an illegal search. You know, you
Speaker 7: didn't have any reason to be looking in that particular
Speaker 7: corner of the yard, other than you are on a
Speaker 7: fishing expedition, you know, and dug yourself ten ten holes
Speaker 7: or something in the backyard, so you can run into
Speaker 7: all these legal issues when you do that sort of thing.
Speaker 7: But yes, it was It was good that the owner cooperated,
Speaker 7: but you know, otherwise it would have been a fight
Speaker 7: to get a judge to say, here's our case, here's
Speaker 7: why we believe she's buried in the backyard. We'd like
Speaker 7: a search warrant, which is what they would have done
Speaker 7: next if the owner hadn't done cooperative.
Speaker 6: Now, as we alluded to earlier, and you had spoken
Speaker 6: about it as well, tell us about how you became involve,
Speaker 6: first as an honorary member of Necrosearch International, then a
Speaker 6: full fledged member. Tell us about the case. And in
Speaker 6: Russia and the Romanovs, tell us a little bit about
Speaker 6: that and how you came to be part of Necrosearch International.
Speaker 7: Well, very very interesting case. A man named Peter Sarandanaki,
Speaker 7: who is a great grandson of a white Russian general,
Speaker 7: the white Russian general who was actually trying to get
Speaker 7: to Katerinberg in time to save the czar and the
Speaker 7: family and arrived six days too late. He was in
Speaker 7: the United States and he noticed he saw that the
Speaker 7: czar and most of the family had been located by
Speaker 7: some Russian archaeologists and historians and revealed in nineteen ninety one,
Speaker 7: and it was fascinated. But part of what fascinated him was
Speaker 7: that two of the children were missing, one of the
Speaker 7: grand duchesses and Alexia, the heir apparent, the son of
Speaker 7: the czar, and so he kind of made it his quest.
Speaker 7: There's a fascinating book in this that I'm actually working
Speaker 7: on as a historical book because his grandfather and his
Speaker 7: father actually who's was the general's adjutants and married the
Speaker 7: general's daughter, and that would have been Peter's grandfather and
Speaker 7: grandmother brought some of the evidence that had been collected
Speaker 7: by a detective in Russia, along with the detective to
Speaker 7: Europe and included the Impress's finger and some other evidence
Speaker 7: and bullets and these sorts of things. There's a great
Speaker 7: detective story. But so Peter thought, well, you know it
Speaker 7: just as he thought more about it, it was like,
Speaker 7: you know, my grandfather, great grandfather and my grandfather started
Speaker 7: this investigation to find out what had happened to the
Speaker 7: royal family and were unable to prove it or to
Speaker 7: find the remains. And and yes, some of the remains
Speaker 7: were found in ninety one, but what what happened to
Speaker 7: these other children? In particularly we all know that, you know,
Speaker 7: there's been rumors that Anastasia survived for a long time afterwards,
Speaker 7: there were several uh fake Anastasias and and movies made
Speaker 7: about it and cartoons made about it, and and so
Speaker 7: he started this idea of let's try to find the
Speaker 7: last two children. And so he came to Neck Research,
Speaker 7: where he'd been introduced some of the forensic anthropologists out
Speaker 7: of the University of Florida. I sent him to Diane France,
Speaker 7: who is a member of Neck Research and one of
Speaker 7: the top for instant anthropologists in the world. And and
Speaker 7: it's was a little bit out of character for neck
Speaker 7: re Search because they are usually working on provable murder
Speaker 7: things and helping law enforcement do their their bit. But
Speaker 7: I mean, how could you resist the historic implications of
Speaker 7: this and the romance of searching for the last two children.
Speaker 7: So Peter got involved in that. Necro Search got involved
Speaker 7: in the early stage just but they actually got over there.
Speaker 7: And there was something of a minor international incident when
Speaker 7: the Russians wanted to say that the Grand Duchess Marie
Speaker 7: was missing in Alexis. But Diane took a look at
Speaker 7: all the bones that they had and said, no, I
Speaker 7: think Marie's here because of the bone bone growth and
Speaker 7: all these sorts of things, and I think it's Anastasia
Speaker 7: is missing. And of course that just sent the Russians
Speaker 7: into attimdy because they did not want the Anasasia to
Speaker 7: this rumor to remain alive out in the world that
Speaker 7: there was a surviving Romana. So the part of NEC
Speaker 7: researchers thing would have been to find the other two children.
Speaker 7: And but this this sort of got neck Research booted
Speaker 7: out of out of Russia and not invited back for
Speaker 7: this and and so but Peter did continue with this,
Speaker 7: and in two thousand and seven colassed to the two
Speaker 7: children the other grand Duchess in Alexia were were where
Speaker 7: their remains were found, uh what was left of them,
Speaker 7: and so the family is together. There's still some arguments
Speaker 7: about uh which was Alexia, uh Anti Stasi which was Marie,
Speaker 7: But it doesn't really matter now because they've found everybody
Speaker 7: and it's been proven with DNA and you know, all
Speaker 7: these things. But just as that was wrapping up, one
Speaker 7: of the Russians came to Peter and said, you know,
Speaker 7: there's one more Romanov missing. It's the Grand Duke Mikhail Romanov,
Speaker 7: who was the Czar's brother and actually tzar for a
Speaker 7: day after Nicholas advocated then and Mikhale was made bizarre.
Speaker 7: But I think he thought I saw the riding on
Speaker 7: the wall and desired he didn't want to be bizarre.
Speaker 7: But in nineteen eighteen, about a month before the most
Speaker 7: of the rest of the family was murdered down in
Speaker 7: ekatering Burg, the Grand Duke Mikhale Romanov, who was sort
Speaker 7: of a dashing cavalry officer type, and his male secretary,
Speaker 7: Brian Johnson, were taken from their apartments in perm Russia
Speaker 7: and taken out along a road. According to some of
Speaker 7: the diaries of the killers and stopped and executed and
Speaker 7: then buried in a shallow grave. Now, the Bolsheviks are
Speaker 7: famous for lying about, you know, where they put bodies
Speaker 7: and all these sorts of things, trying to throw people off.
Speaker 7: So anyway, Peter decided that he would continue the search
Speaker 7: for the last remaining missing Romanov and I was invited
Speaker 7: to go along on that back the first search back
Speaker 7: in twenty thirteen, and I poked six and seventy holes
Speaker 7: in mother Russia so that a cadaver or dog could
Speaker 7: follow along behind me and sniffed each one of these
Speaker 7: holes to see and we didn't find anything then and
Speaker 7: other than a lot of revolutionaries Russian revolutionary war stuff
Speaker 7: that we were unearthing and finding, you all these sorts
Speaker 7: of things. But we've narrowed down some other areas. They
Speaker 7: went back again last year and it didn't have success again.
Speaker 7: But we are going back one more time in June
Speaker 7: of this year to and we think we have a
Speaker 7: good handle on where we might find the remains this
Speaker 7: time and third time as a charm, we hope. But anyway,
Speaker 7: after after my you know, the necro search was very
Speaker 7: you know, they're humble people, but they did like the
Speaker 7: book Notestone Unturned. It seemed to, you know, give them
Speaker 7: a here's who we are and here's our history and
Speaker 7: and that sort of thing. And they made me an
Speaker 7: honorary member of the group that back in twenty fourteen,
Speaker 7: and then they decided in February to make me a
Speaker 7: full member. And so I'll be going back to Russia
Speaker 7: as a full member of Necrosearch International as their historian
Speaker 7: and their media relations person.
Speaker 6: Well, congratulations on that. Can you tell us roughly? I
Speaker 6: know that they're it's sort of a fluid group as well,
Speaker 6: but tell us how many members roughly comprise Necrosearch International
Speaker 6: right now?
Speaker 7: I believe there are close to about fifty now they
Speaker 7: You're right there, It is fluid. Sometimes they they have
Speaker 7: men members all over the United States and actually some
Speaker 7: people some nec Research chapters in other countries Britain and Australia.
Speaker 7: So you know, if you include those then the numbers
Speaker 7: are different there. At any meeting, particular meeting here you'll
Speaker 7: have twenty five forty people perhaps, And you know a
Speaker 7: lot of different types of people have joined the National
Speaker 7: Missing and Exploited Children. You've probably heard of that group
Speaker 7: before through the Department of Justice. They have members who
Speaker 7: are now members of nec Research and regularly attend the meetings.
Speaker 7: You'll find different federal agencies have members and or people
Speaker 7: who attend these meetings, and then just sort of shows
Speaker 7: you the growth and respect that NECROS has that uh
Speaker 7: you know, they are they are considered peers of these
Speaker 7: people now, not not just your your nutty group of
Speaker 7: of fun, fun loving and and Sherlock Holmes loving uh scientists.
Speaker 7: They're they're right up there with your your your cape
Speaker 7: cape cruthaders.
Speaker 6: With all the news recently about all the discredited former
Speaker 6: forensic techniques such as bite mark, hair analysis, fiber analysis,
Speaker 6: even some fingerprint analysis has come into question, it is
Speaker 6: testament to that some of this stuff has been done
Speaker 6: slowly and carefully and to ensure that it doesn't uh
Speaker 6: it can't be shaken in court cases in the future
Speaker 6: or presently. So it is testament that some of these
Speaker 6: techniques that they've been innovators in have been adopted and
Speaker 6: accepted as credible forensic investigative tools, isn't it.
Speaker 7: Well? Yes? Uh? And and they you know, while they
Speaker 7: have forensic chemists and people who work for the groups
Speaker 7: like the Colorado Bureau of Investigation and and and do
Speaker 7: some of these other things in zerology and uh that
Speaker 7: sort of thing. That their main emphasis is on finding
Speaker 7: graves and remains and uh, protecting evidence and that sort
Speaker 7: of thing. And they use their their skills and their knowledge,
Speaker 7: uh to crack these cases and and and help the
Speaker 7: police that way. So you know, they they are careful.
Speaker 7: They are very careful not to be adamant about the
Speaker 7: uh the one hundred percent reliability of anything they do. Uh.
Speaker 7: Any good scientists, uh, you know, you have some uh
Speaker 7: television scientists and and experts supposedly and and all these
Speaker 7: sort of people who who get on and talk about,
Speaker 7: you know, the infallibility of whatever they do. But any
Speaker 7: good scientists will tell you there's always room for error,
Speaker 7: and there's always a possibility of of of data being
Speaker 7: off or wrong. And and these guys are you know,
Speaker 7: and maybe it's because they come from these different disciplines
Speaker 7: where they don't have to be television stars or or
Speaker 7: you know, in the latest oj Simpson trial or or
Speaker 7: something like that, that you know, they they recognize the
Speaker 7: weaknesses of what they do, and they recognize and they
Speaker 7: try to eliminate errors realizing that errors will can be
Speaker 7: and will be made, but they do their best and
Speaker 7: and you know, it's just a testament that you know,
Speaker 7: there are a number of killers who have been put
Speaker 7: away in good part because of Necrosearch, and there's more
Speaker 7: on the way. There new cases coming in all the time.
Speaker 7: And if anybody out there thinks he's got a body
Speaker 7: hidden that nobody can find, well they may want to
Speaker 7: talk to Jene Kaidel and Tom Luther and Roy Mellinson
Speaker 7: and Tony Imery about the body they thought would never
Speaker 7: be found because they're behind bars because of net research.
Speaker 6: Absolutely. What's interesting is that we really all we touched
Speaker 6: on basically really just the forensic innovation and the team
Speaker 6: forming your involvement, and just we just touched on a
Speaker 6: couple of cases, but your book is full of full
Speaker 6: blown cases where we really get into the emotional emotionality
Speaker 6: of not only the Necrosearch International team but also the
Speaker 6: detectives that are involved. And very much against sort of
Speaker 6: that idea that these people have to remain detached, they're
Speaker 6: exact opposite. They're completely emotionally involved from the beginning to
Speaker 6: the very end and beyond. It would seem with.
Speaker 7: This well they are you know, they're if you think
Speaker 7: about them, you know, they're volunteers, and they're and they volunteered, yes,
Speaker 7: they you know, they like Sherlock Holmes. And there's a
Speaker 7: certain excitement of being involved. As crime fighters. You know,
Speaker 7: you spend your life looking for uh you know, talk
Speaker 7: deposits or something and and suddenly you get to go
Speaker 7: help solve a murder investigation. You know, that's that's exciting.
Speaker 7: But you know there they are, to a person that
Speaker 7: I've met there anyway, just good people. You know, their
Speaker 7: mothers and fathers and and they truly and even the
Speaker 7: people who are in the law, who have been in
Speaker 7: the law enforcement side of it, uh, you know, are
Speaker 7: just you know, they feel for the victim. They they
Speaker 7: try and have learned through sometimes through errors, to be
Speaker 7: a little bit detached as far as you know, trying
Speaker 7: wanting to promise somebody will find her. You know, that's
Speaker 7: that's the first human thing that you want to do,
Speaker 7: is don't worry, we'll find her. And and then realizing that,
Speaker 7: you know, as scientists, they can't promise that sort of thing,
Speaker 7: and that's hard on them and a number of them,
Speaker 7: uh you we talked about the give and take and
Speaker 7: flow of of the membership. Almost all of them that
Speaker 7: I've met early on are still there, but you know,
Speaker 7: sometimes they have to take a break sometimes. Some of
Speaker 7: these cases are tough on them. Uh, you know, they
Speaker 7: are they they learn about the humanity of it. They
Speaker 7: they see the grieving families, They attend trials, hear about trials,
Speaker 7: talk to talk to people, and and of course, you know, detectives,
Speaker 7: you know, and I try to emphasize this in my
Speaker 7: books too, or you know, they're human as well. There's
Speaker 7: police are getting lots of bad raps these days, but
Speaker 7: these detectives who are solving cold cases and listening to
Speaker 7: little girls talk about how their father killed their mom
Speaker 7: and killed her sisters. You know, they are family men
Speaker 7: who care for these people. And and the neck research
Speaker 7: people can't help but pick up on that too. A
Speaker 7: lot of it is they want to do this as
Speaker 7: much for some of these detectives as they do for
Speaker 7: their families, just because they know what kind of an
Speaker 7: emotional you know, costs this has on all sorts of people.
Speaker 7: The ripple effect of violent crime goes far beyond just
Speaker 7: the victims. So yeah, it's it's tough on them. And
Speaker 7: sometimes they have to step away, but you know, it's
Speaker 7: kind of the amazing part is they come back and
Speaker 7: they are always willing to try try again.
Speaker 6: You include in your book of very tragic stories to
Speaker 6: show you I don't know, I guess maybe it's just
Speaker 6: to demonstrate that the profound effect on some people, and
Speaker 6: that despite going through a trial and having a loved
Speaker 6: one murdered, they also become a victim of murder or
Speaker 6: a violence themselves. So you include a story of a
Speaker 6: gentleman that when he's eighty six years old, thinking that
Speaker 6: everything that's bad is in the past. Tell us just
Speaker 6: a little bit about before we end, just tell us
Speaker 6: a little bit about that story.
Speaker 7: Are you talking George Wallace, Michelle's father, Yes, yeah, boy,
Speaker 7: to talk about a family that just couldn't catch a break.
Speaker 7: You know, Michelle disappeared, and Michelle was sort of the
Speaker 7: She had a brother and he he's a good guy
Speaker 7: too and obviously loved by his parents. But Michelle was
Speaker 7: a shining light. She was just about to take a
Speaker 7: job as a national geographic photographer and was adventurous and
Speaker 7: just just a different sort of person and very much
Speaker 7: loved by her mom and her dad. And as I said,
Speaker 7: two weeks into looking for Michelle, sort of realizing that
Speaker 7: she's gone and this wasn't Michelle, that something had happened
Speaker 7: to her, George went to bed with his wife one night.
Speaker 7: His wife had been down in the kitchen, and when
Speaker 7: he woke up in the morning, his wife was dead.
Speaker 7: She had taken an overdose and left a note saying,
Speaker 7: I can't wait anymore and please bury me with my daughter.
Speaker 7: So so George had to bury his wife we loved
Speaker 7: very much. And he had a missing daughter who no
Speaker 7: one could find, and a killer out there somewhere who
Speaker 7: no one could convict. They found Michelle, Uh when they did,
Speaker 7: and you know, which, of course brought him some closure.
Speaker 7: But he he and they and they went to the
Speaker 7: trial and and this this killer was, Uh did and
Speaker 7: he got to look at that man and and know
Speaker 7: that this that the killer was was caught. But the
Speaker 7: day before Michelle's remains were sent to him to bury
Speaker 7: with his first wife, his his second wife died of cancer.
Speaker 7: So essentially George Wallace had lost first wife's second wife
Speaker 7: and his daughter. And and when when something like this happens,
Speaker 7: you know, any of us who are parents have to
Speaker 7: understand that you lose the child like this it life is.
Speaker 7: You know, life goes on, but it's never the same again.
Speaker 7: And then to have lost your daughter, your wife, your
Speaker 7: next wife to cancer. And then to top it all off,
Speaker 7: George is living in Florida when two men broke into
Speaker 7: his house and beat him into a coma and George
Speaker 7: died several several days later. It's just sometimes you look
Speaker 7: up for this guy and you and you ask, uh,
Speaker 7: you know, what's what do you think? What's what's going
Speaker 7: on here that anyone family has to uh suffer that much?
Speaker 7: And you know, and then they're there right now, at
Speaker 7: least here on this planet. There are no answers to
Speaker 7: some of that. But you know, you do have dragon
Speaker 7: fighters and slayers out there and and monster hunters, and
Speaker 7: you know, I always like to end these shows that
Speaker 7: as dark as some of this stuff is that there
Speaker 7: are good guys and they do and they may be
Speaker 7: detectives or the FBI agents, but they also may be
Speaker 7: people like Necrosearch International, who you know, fight the darkness
Speaker 7: and and try to bring justice and some answers, even
Speaker 7: if we don't get all the answers.
Speaker 6: Yes, this book really is again we just we talked
Speaker 6: about a really, really sad chapter in the book with
Speaker 6: George Wallace, but really it is an upbeat story of
Speaker 6: success where the snide, smug, criminal killer is finally brought
Speaker 6: to justice and even like you say, it seems otherworldly,
Speaker 6: where the forensic team brings this call right into the
Speaker 6: in trial and very very profound moment where basically, like
Speaker 6: you say, from the grave, justice is done the cooperation
Speaker 6: of law enforcement and these new these new crusaders, employing
Speaker 6: all of their scientific knowledge and again just from the
Speaker 6: bottom of their heart, volunteer their time and energy to
Speaker 6: this very honorable pursuit. And I want to thank you
Speaker 6: very much for talking about this with no Stone Downturn.
Speaker 6: As I had mentioned earlier, you are also a publisher
Speaker 6: of Wild Blue Press, so other than no Stone Onturn,
Speaker 6: maybe you could tell us a little bit what's next
Speaker 6: for yourself and maybe a couple of other interesting true
Speaker 6: crime offerings from Wild Blue Press.
Speaker 7: We're real proud of some of our books that we
Speaker 7: have out by Kevin Sullivan and John Ferrick and Burl
Speaker 7: Bear and Ron Francella Caitlin Brother and actually a detective
Speaker 7: Bradley Nicol, who has written his first book, Repeat Offender,
Speaker 7: out of Las Vegas, and you know there we have
Speaker 7: new people coming to us all the time. We're proud
Speaker 7: of what we are, which is a publishing company for
Speaker 7: authors by authors. We're trying to uh, not just be
Speaker 7: an indie publisher, but the new faiths of publishing and
Speaker 7: get up and bring ourselves up against the big boys
Speaker 7: with what we offer, both in new books and in
Speaker 7: backlist such some of these true crime books that never
Speaker 7: never got much publicity or much knowledge just because of
Speaker 7: the way traditional publishing has gone. But I'm working on several.
Speaker 7: One is the Russian book, the Peter Sarandinaki's book. I've
Speaker 7: also I will be doing a book on Roy Mellinson
Speaker 7: and his depredations. I barely scratch the surface of that brute.
Speaker 7: And then I had my own a little run in
Speaker 7: with a gunman last August and uh and he finally
Speaker 7: just that sentence, And so I'm going to be writing
Speaker 7: a little bit of a story on on that incident
Speaker 7: and what came of it, and and uh uh and
Speaker 7: and that's that's Uh. There's a story out here about
Speaker 7: Austin Siga, seventeen year old who kidnapped and murdered a
Speaker 7: ten year old, which is not my usual sort of
Speaker 7: story I want to do, but it's a story about
Speaker 7: community and family and and once again, uh, you know, uh,
Speaker 7: a light shining there in the darkness of some of
Speaker 7: these things. So we have a we have a lot
Speaker 7: of authors coming on board and a lot of new books,
Speaker 7: and anybody wants to check us out as we're at
Speaker 7: wild bluepress dot com, and I invite you to to
Speaker 7: take a look and try our writers that we're trying
Speaker 7: to get some people who might I get the opportunity
Speaker 7: of the opportunity as well, and to do it with
Speaker 7: quality and style. So you are, We're proud of what
Speaker 7: we're doing and we're getting there.
Speaker 6: Absolutely. It's a it's a great company with some great authors,
Speaker 6: and I really like your philosophy of taking some of
Speaker 6: their past works and some of the new works, and
Speaker 6: just your overall philosophy is refreshing in terms of the
Speaker 6: problems with the traditional publishing and so it's again you're
Speaker 6: a bright beacon for authors and for true crime reading
Speaker 6: fans as well, So I applaud you for that. I
Speaker 6: want to thank you very much Steve for coming on
Speaker 6: and stock talking about no Stone Unturned and necro Search International.
Speaker 6: I want to thank you very much and have yourself
Speaker 6: a great evening.
Speaker 7: Well, thank you too, Dan, And I'd like to say
Speaker 7: that we rely on people like you, you know, you
Speaker 7: and some of your colleague in blog talk radio. You know,
Speaker 7: we're up against the big boys, and we don't have
Speaker 7: their kind of resources, and so for people like you
Speaker 7: to actually take this kind of time out of your
Speaker 7: day and get us on the air and and get
Speaker 7: the word out there to people is very much appreciated.
Speaker 7: And we see you as a friend in a colleague
Speaker 7: so I thought I didn't know that.
Speaker 6: Well, thank you very much, Steve. I'm just like I
Speaker 6: said I mentioned before, is that I'm just proud to
Speaker 6: be a small part of this really really interesting and
Speaker 6: great friendly and cooperative community, which is the true crime
Speaker 6: community of authors, readers, and publishers, everybody that's involved in this,
Speaker 6: uh bringing interesting and fascinating true crime stories to the public.
Speaker 6: So I want to thank you very much and I'm
Speaker 6: just glad glad to be just a small part of it.
Speaker 7: Thank you, and we'll talk to gets soon.
Speaker 6: Yes, absolutely have a great night, right you two. This
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Speaker 5: Good Night,