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The 61 00:03:40.680 --> 00:03:45.439 true story of the world's premiere forensic unit recreates the 62 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:50.319 genesis of Necrosearch International as a small, eclectic group of 63 00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:54.360 scientists and law enforcement who volunteered their services to help 64 00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:58.439 locate the clandestine graves of murder victims and recover the 65 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:02.240 remains and evidence to assist with the apprehension and conviction 66 00:04:02.360 --> 00:04:06.199 of the killers. Known early on as the Pig People 67 00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:10.080 because of their experiments in locating graves using the carcasses 68 00:04:10.120 --> 00:04:14.520 of pigs because of their similarities to human bodies, necro 69 00:04:14.639 --> 00:04:17.839 Search has evolved and expanded into one of the most 70 00:04:17.879 --> 00:04:23.600 respected forensic investigation teams in the world. New York Times 71 00:04:23.639 --> 00:04:27.240 bestselling author Steve Jackson, the author of Bogeyman and Monster, 72 00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:31.560 vividly tells the story of this incredible group and a 73 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:35.720 recount some of their most memorable early cases that, taken separately, 74 00:04:36.120 --> 00:04:41.199 would make great true crime books. Following his participate participation 75 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:44.439 in a necro Search expedition to Russia looking for the 76 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:48.439 remains of a Russian noble in twenty and thirteen, Jackson 77 00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:52.879 was made an honorary member of Necrosearch International in November 78 00:04:52.920 --> 00:04:56.800 twenty fourteen. The book that we are profiling this evening 79 00:04:57.000 --> 00:05:02.560 is No Stoned Unturned with my special guest, Steve Jackson, 80 00:05:02.720 --> 00:05:07.120 journalist and author and publisher. Steve Jackson and I just 81 00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:10.319 spoke to Steve a minute ago, and he was connected 82 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:18.000 via his cell phone and had difficulties connecting via Skype. 83 00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:18.800 I won't even. 84 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:22.560 Apologize because Steve will call back in regardless, So we'll 85 00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:25.319 have this sorted out in a minute. This is a 86 00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:28.720 book that was originally released in two thousand and two, 87 00:05:28.879 --> 00:05:31.480 and it has been released this year in twenty and 88 00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:35.800 fifty this spring with updates on all of the cases 89 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:41.399 that were included in this book from necro Search International, 90 00:05:41.879 --> 00:05:47.199 and some interesting and fascinating updates have included. This book 91 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:55.120 really talks about some of the groundbreaking forensic investigation tools 92 00:05:56.319 --> 00:05:59.439 outlined in this necro Search International that now, I guess 93 00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:05.720 have been creeping into common fictional stories and also a 94 00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:09.680 little bit into stuff like investigation discovery documentaries where some 95 00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:12.240 of this stuff, some of the things that they pioneered 96 00:06:12.279 --> 00:06:14.920 way back when at the turn of the century, have 97 00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:19.399 now become commonplace. Here we are with Steve Jackson. Welcome 98 00:06:19.399 --> 00:06:21.319 to the program. Steve Jackson. 99 00:06:23.079 --> 00:06:26.879 Either Dan, I can hear you on Skype, but I 100 00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:30.480 can't be heard apparently, so we'll have to go with 101 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:31.079 it this way. 102 00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:35.680 Okay, well we'll do that. Then you sound fine, Your 103 00:06:35.759 --> 00:06:41.040 signal sounds great. I just did the synopsis explaining just 104 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:45.680 giving a brief outline of necro Search International. Tell us 105 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:50.040 how it came to be that you had the opportunity 106 00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:54.959 to write about Necrosearch International. Back in I mentioned that 107 00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:56.839 this book had originally come out in two thousand and two, 108 00:06:57.079 --> 00:07:00.040 So tell us about how you came to be in 109 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:03.040 with this group and to write this book No Stone Unturned. 110 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:08.600 Well. I originally ran into Necrosearch International when I was 111 00:07:08.639 --> 00:07:15.040 working on the book Monster. Necrosearch was involved in finding 112 00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:20.120 a murder victim, the main victim, if you will, from 113 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:23.199 that story in Monster, which was Chaer Elder. She'd been 114 00:07:23.319 --> 00:07:28.839 buried in the mountains above Empire, Colorado and clandestine grave 115 00:07:28.959 --> 00:07:35.160 by her killer, Thomas Luther, and was missing for about 116 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:39.800 five years. And a detective who was the main detective 117 00:07:39.839 --> 00:07:44.040 in that story contacted heard about Necrosearch. Didn't think much 118 00:07:44.040 --> 00:07:47.639 of them at first, you know, thought these were a 119 00:07:47.720 --> 00:07:50.600 nice group of volunteers, and you know, but he'd give 120 00:07:50.759 --> 00:07:52.879 a give it a try because he hadn't been able 121 00:07:52.920 --> 00:07:56.920 to find Sharer's body up to that point. So he 122 00:07:57.879 --> 00:08:02.639 contacted them and they went from there and they located 123 00:08:02.680 --> 00:08:07.480 the body and exhumed the body and the evidence that 124 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:10.600 was around it, which was very important to the trial 125 00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:14.000 and the case. So that's kind of how I got 126 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:18.040 started as I heard about him working to another book. 127 00:08:19.639 --> 00:08:21.639 Now, what I mentioned to the audience was that some 128 00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:25.079 of these things that happened and some of the groundbreaking 129 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:29.560 forensic investigative tools that they came upon came about as 130 00:08:29.639 --> 00:08:36.960 a group was slowly formed from other scientific disciplines and 131 00:08:37.159 --> 00:08:45.799 including anthropology, botany, etymology, erology, geophysics, chemistry, and psychology, among 132 00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:51.440 other things. And so tell us about the origins of 133 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:56.240 the Pig people and some of the first group members 134 00:08:56.480 --> 00:09:00.399 that identified that there was some and why the group 135 00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:00.960 was formed. 136 00:09:02.960 --> 00:09:05.600 Well, it's it's it's sort of how you you were 137 00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:10.440 describing it. It was slowly came together from almost sort 138 00:09:10.480 --> 00:09:14.679 of a synchronicity at about the same time. Now, some 139 00:09:14.759 --> 00:09:18.519 of the people involved, we were in the forensic sciences, 140 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:24.960 such as pathologists and forensic anthropologists, and and so they 141 00:09:25.039 --> 00:09:29.039 were used to their disciplines being applied to this, but 142 00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:34.720 still they were It actually mostly starts on there was 143 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:38.879 a place called the McCormick Ranch south of Denver, and 144 00:09:40.919 --> 00:09:44.720 rumor had it that the rancher down there, the mister 145 00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:49.159 McCormick and his son, uh, these homeless men kept disappearing, 146 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:53.840 going down there and working and disappearing, and you know, 147 00:09:53.879 --> 00:09:57.200 we were some members of this group just who happened 148 00:09:57.200 --> 00:10:00.240 to they shared a love for Sherlock Home was in 149 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:02.200 the Hardy Boys and all that sort of thing where 150 00:10:02.440 --> 00:10:06.799 we're watching television and the police had these bulldozers out 151 00:10:06.799 --> 00:10:09.440 on this property and we're just sort of tearing back 152 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:12.919 and forth across the property, and they were thinking, boy, 153 00:10:12.759 --> 00:10:15.679 they even if they find the remains of somebody, they're 154 00:10:15.720 --> 00:10:18.399 just going to have disturbed the evidence so much that 155 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:21.120 a lot could be lost. Plus, you know, it's just 156 00:10:21.200 --> 00:10:24.960 sort of haphazard. And about the same time, there was 157 00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:31.679 a geophysicist named Clark Davenport who was watching a different 158 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:37.159 television show and it's had these police officers were out 159 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:39.559 doing the same thing with a back hoe looking for 160 00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:44.120 a body that was supposedly stuck in a fifty gallon 161 00:10:44.200 --> 00:10:48.200 drum and buried somewhere. And he was thinking, well, geez, 162 00:10:48.519 --> 00:10:53.080 you know, I locate feris materials using some some miment 163 00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:56.000 my equipment all the time. I bet I could find 164 00:10:56.240 --> 00:10:59.000 a drum. So he kind of went out to the 165 00:10:59.039 --> 00:11:01.960 field and told what he did, and they they gave 166 00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:04.360 him a chance to do it, and they didn't find 167 00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:07.039 the drum that day, but they they found car parks 168 00:11:07.080 --> 00:11:12.519 and buried other materials. So the police saw the benefit 169 00:11:12.600 --> 00:11:14.399 of it and said, well, if there was a drum 170 00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:17.679 out there, he would have found it. And it just started, 171 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:22.320 you know, kind of these these friends who knew other friends, 172 00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:27.799 who contacted each other, and you know, started meeting at 173 00:11:27.799 --> 00:11:30.679 Denny's for breakfast and thinking, trying to think of better 174 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:35.279 ways to locate clandestine graves and apply all these different 175 00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:39.120 sciences sort of as a many headed Sherlock Holmes is 176 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:42.480 what they eventually kind of thought of themselves. 177 00:11:42.519 --> 00:11:47.240 As It's interesting too that they all seem to have 178 00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:49.480 where a lot of these members seemed to have that 179 00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:54.320 Sherlock Holmes bug where they had had captivated their imaginations 180 00:11:54.320 --> 00:11:56.360 when they were young, and even though they went into 181 00:11:56.399 --> 00:12:00.080 the separate fields, they still had that common love of 182 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:02.159 Lock Holmes and and solving a mystery. 183 00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:03.799 Uh. 184 00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:09.159 Clive Clark Davenport had something called and I've mispronounces, but 185 00:12:09.399 --> 00:12:13.840 uh a magnet magnet magnet magnometer. 186 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:16.480 There you go, thank you, thank. 187 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:21.279 You very much. So anyway, there, can you pronounce it 188 00:12:21.320 --> 00:12:22.039 one more time for me? 189 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:27.039 The magnometer, and uh, the thing is, yes. 190 00:12:27.480 --> 00:12:32.919 Okay, now this magnometer, this magnometer was for for our audience, 191 00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:35.360 if we could explain this is that that what he 192 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:40.120 realizes that using what they were trying to do, these police, 193 00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:43.480 they couldn't, uh, it wasn't going to go deep enough. 194 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:45.799 It's not going to detect anything deep enough in the soil. 195 00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:48.799 So he thought that what it would be is that 196 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:54.840 there's magnetic fields of the particular particular particles apart me 197 00:12:54.879 --> 00:12:57.399 in the soil, and you'll take on the orientation of 198 00:12:57.399 --> 00:13:01.440 the Earth's field. And when that soil is removed and replaced, 199 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:05.600 as very much in the digging of a grave, they 200 00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:10.720 would note those changes in the orientation of those particles. 201 00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:14.639 Right, Yes, that's a that's uh, that's exactly the way 202 00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:17.600 it is. I think everybody has pretty much heard the 203 00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:22.320 the earth has a uh electronic fields and that circle 204 00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:24.559 it and they they tend to go in a certain 205 00:13:24.600 --> 00:13:29.799 direction north, the south, and and and uh, things that 206 00:13:29.799 --> 00:13:32.840 are in the ground take on the same electrical field. 207 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:35.559 So if you dig into that until you start throwing 208 00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:37.600 it around, you throw it back in, it's going to 209 00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:41.480 be different. And what it is, it's called an anomaly. 210 00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:44.919 And it doesn't it's this isn't it. It's not looking 211 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:48.320 beneath the ground and seeing the skeleton. It's it's looking 212 00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:52.200 beneath the ground and finding an anomaly that is of 213 00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:56.360 a certain size and depth. And and it's just one 214 00:13:56.360 --> 00:13:59.480 of many tools, uh that one you're when you're talking 215 00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:02.000 about the anometer can look a little bit deeper. But 216 00:14:02.039 --> 00:14:08.639 they also have ground penetrating radar which can essentially help 217 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:15.600 them look beneath things like cement pads by balancing radar 218 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:18.679 beams beneath the ground. And it does the same sort 219 00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:22.879 of thing that when you've disturbed the ground. It it 220 00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:26.360 has a different density. So you're going over say you're 221 00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:29.919 you're driving it over a smitt pad that's over some 222 00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:32.639 ground and most of the ground is of a certain 223 00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:39.639 density and or vel electronic field, and suddenly it changes. 224 00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:43.799 And this change is oh, six feet long by you know, 225 00:14:44.279 --> 00:14:46.879 two and a half feet across, and and you're looking 226 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:51.000 for something along those lines. That's it gives you an anomaly. 227 00:14:51.159 --> 00:14:53.600 And sometimes there's several anomalies and they have to check 228 00:14:53.639 --> 00:14:54.120 them all out. 229 00:14:56.200 --> 00:14:58.440 And he had used he had got some of his 230 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:03.559 experience in Vietnam used GPR too, sending electromatic magnetic waves 231 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:08.080 beneath the surface. And so he'd used this to find 232 00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:10.960 out tunnels that were dug by the Viet Cong in 233 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:12.679 in Vietnam, and. 234 00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:16.720 Some of the other materials. Some of the other equipment 235 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:21.159 for locating mines is a combat engineer. So yes, they 236 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:25.840 would look for the tunnels of the Vietcong or other 237 00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:31.360 buried buried weapons, buried materials, or mines, even the clear roads, 238 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:34.200 and that's where the metal detectors can do that. But 239 00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:38.679 if it's very deeper, I would say, a cash of arms, 240 00:15:38.679 --> 00:15:40.840 they could look for those too. 241 00:15:42.679 --> 00:15:47.120 Now, as we mentioned, this was a slow progression of 242 00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:51.399 accumulating members but also learning as they made mistakes, and 243 00:15:51.480 --> 00:15:57.960 so Davenport worked with officers, but they still they learned 244 00:15:58.039 --> 00:16:01.159 quite a bit from some of the mistakes they made. 245 00:16:02.200 --> 00:16:05.159 So tell us a little bit about how they did 246 00:16:05.240 --> 00:16:08.919 go about that in terms of recognizing that they're they 247 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:11.000 certainly were going to make some mistakes, but it would 248 00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:13.519 be a good learning tool for them. 249 00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:19.919 Well. In understanding the nature of a scientist or you 250 00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:23.759 know sciences is they don't really look at things in 251 00:16:23.879 --> 00:16:27.279 terms of all success or failure quite the way we do. 252 00:16:28.600 --> 00:16:32.080 You know, learning something is a success to them. So 253 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:35.759 if go over a certain piece of ground and they 254 00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:38.360 get all excited because they thought there was a grave there, 255 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:41.679 and then they find out, well, it was caused by 256 00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:47.159 maybe some water running beneath the ground or that not 257 00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:50.840 everything that looks like a grave is a grave. You know, 258 00:16:50.919 --> 00:16:54.919 they can you know, they don't really see that as 259 00:16:54.919 --> 00:16:58.080 as a mistake so much as this is something we've 260 00:16:58.159 --> 00:17:01.440 learned from. So next time we back at this, uh, 261 00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:05.279 will will learn And it said, take even the case 262 00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:12.079 of share Elder, they'd actually located the grave earlier at 263 00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:16.119 a time. Then then then they ended up excavating it, 264 00:17:16.519 --> 00:17:20.319 but they did so in the winter when the cracks 265 00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:22.240 that are in the soil and might and in this 266 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:26.160 case they're using some cadaver dogs a system with some 267 00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:32.920 of the other means that they're looking for. Uh, the 268 00:17:32.440 --> 00:17:35.960 the scent was frozen beneath the ground. The dogs didn't 269 00:17:35.960 --> 00:17:38.839 pick it up, and so they ruled something out. So 270 00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:41.759 you know, they learned little things about you know, the 271 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:45.680 time the wind to go out and where to look 272 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:50.240 and and combining some of these these things that you know, 273 00:17:50.319 --> 00:17:54.720 the psychologists know about killers that killers don't like to 274 00:17:54.759 --> 00:17:57.680 go uphill with with a body, even though share elders 275 00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:00.599 killer did go up hill with the bodies. So they 276 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:03.480 also learned that you can't always believe you know what 277 00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:04.880 the experts supposedly know. 278 00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:11.599 Now, the first case that you you point out is 279 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:14.279 the janitor and the drum as it's affectionately called by 280 00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:18.680 these police officers with the sort of uh bizarre sense 281 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:21.400 of humor doing this kind of work for a living. Uh, 282 00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:25.279 So tell us that they have a suspect, they have 283 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:28.359 a couple of bodies that they're looking for, and all 284 00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:31.160 they have is a couple of witnesses say they witness 285 00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:36.680 the murder. So then Davenport and is brought in. So 286 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:39.000 tell us a little bit about how that case develops. 287 00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:43.440 Well, he's brought in. This is this is the one 288 00:18:43.559 --> 00:18:49.640 he's he's watching the television screen and and sees them 289 00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:52.640 doing this and says, well, you know, I, I uh, 290 00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:55.160 I think I can do better, and say actually, sort 291 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:57.640 of a humor story. If you knew Clark, he's he's 292 00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:01.279 the easier, typical scientist and doesn't really understand what how 293 00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:03.359 somebody else might be thinking. So he kind of wandered 294 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:05.279 in there and said, hey, I hear you guys are 295 00:19:05.319 --> 00:19:09.000 looking for you know, uh, such and such a murder victims, 296 00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:12.480 and suddenly he had all of their attention and he said, 297 00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:14.160 you know, especially when he says, I think I can 298 00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:16.559 help you find him. So you know, all of a 299 00:19:16.599 --> 00:19:20.079 sudden he's he's part of this investigation when all he 300 00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:22.599 means is that he's willing to go out to this 301 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:27.160 area and search for a drum. Now, that case in 302 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:32.359 that particular time and that was, oh, you know, I 303 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:36.680 believe that one. Yeah, quite a long time ago, right 304 00:19:36.920 --> 00:19:40.319 was not you know, they didn't find anything at the time. 305 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:43.640 But I can say that that case is very active 306 00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:48.599 again now and they're they're working on it. So you 307 00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:52.640 know that's there's that uh you know, there's no statute 308 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:56.599 of limitations on murder. And these these people, they can 309 00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:00.240 be real bulldogs when it comes to not giving up 310 00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:03.319 on something and willing to go back and do it again. 311 00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:09.359 So the infamous Janitor and the drum case may yet 312 00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:09.920 peace alved. 313 00:20:13.480 --> 00:20:18.039 Now the you introduced along the way you introduced as 314 00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:22.319 members are joined the group and with their own scientific 315 00:20:22.359 --> 00:20:28.400 discipline and also the police that end up cooperating with 316 00:20:28.519 --> 00:20:32.400 these people that are outside law enforcement itself and tell 317 00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:36.519 us about you know, their initial reluctance to work with 318 00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:39.319 some of these people I thought was humorous as well. 319 00:20:40.359 --> 00:20:45.960 Well, you know that you have a murder and you're 320 00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:48.279 the investigating officer, and you know you're going to get 321 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:52.680 a bunch of calls from psychic to you know, have 322 00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:55.759 a feeling about where somebody is, or have a dream, 323 00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:59.920 or or somebody thinks they saw something and and or 324 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:04.640 somebody believes they know which way a killer would go, 325 00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:07.440 and these sorts of things. So in most of it 326 00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:09.920 is well meaning. You know, you have people who would 327 00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:15.759 like to help police officers solve crimes and find the victims. 328 00:21:16.359 --> 00:21:19.960 So when you have this group of scientists who say, oh, 329 00:21:19.960 --> 00:21:24.319 well I'm a botanist and she's a naturalist, and he's 330 00:21:24.359 --> 00:21:27.480 a geophysicist, and none of us are connected to law 331 00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:31.359 enforcement anyway, and they call you up or or actually 332 00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:35.920 they don't call a lot, they get contacted. Eventually, they 333 00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:41.160 have let themselves known that they have this these abilities, 334 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:43.039 they think and would like to try him out. And 335 00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:45.400 so the police a lot of times would come to 336 00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:48.279 them thinking, hell, boy, you know, I've been looking for 337 00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:51.799 this person for five years and I've heard about this group, 338 00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:54.839 and they're probably another voluntretier group that will give you 339 00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:57.200 the shirt off their back. But you know what kind 340 00:21:57.240 --> 00:21:59.519 of hocus focus are they gonna pull? Are they gonna 341 00:21:59.559 --> 00:22:03.319 pull out divining rods and find bodies that way? And 342 00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:07.400 it's not until you actually and this has developed over 343 00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:11.599 many years to where now when they come in the 344 00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:15.079 FBI or police officers and I go to a number 345 00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:17.559 of these meetings, I'm a member and that phone member 346 00:22:17.559 --> 00:22:21.319 now not just an honorary member, but you know, the 347 00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:25.240 respect is there because they come into these meetings and 348 00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:28.400 suddenly they're being asked what time of day was this, 349 00:22:28.599 --> 00:22:30.519 what was the light like, what was the weather like? 350 00:22:30.599 --> 00:22:33.519 What what is if they're buried in a in a 351 00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:36.680 car or a drum? What was is the fairs material 352 00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:42.279 made out of? You know what witnesses have said? And 353 00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:48.720 a number of uh, these questionnaires that the police leave thinking, boy, 354 00:22:48.759 --> 00:22:52.039 I I better go back to the drawing board and 355 00:22:52.039 --> 00:22:54.920 and learn more about well my own victim and my 356 00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:57.759 own case and come back to these people. But it's 357 00:22:57.799 --> 00:23:01.920 sort of they come come to these meet especially early on, 358 00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:07.519 with a reluctance and then maybe you know, looking at 359 00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:13.440 him something like doing voodoo and then leaving with a 360 00:23:13.480 --> 00:23:15.559 great deal of respect. 361 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:24.079 Now, some of these original members again have to work 362 00:23:24.200 --> 00:23:27.440 on cases, or they're asked to do cases, and they 363 00:23:27.480 --> 00:23:31.119 want to do cases. And so you talk about again 364 00:23:31.160 --> 00:23:33.720 a case that would probably raise their profile and their 365 00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:38.599 credibility everywhere. And again an important infamous killer, Ted Bundy. 366 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:43.319 So tell us what exact information that the authorities were 367 00:23:43.319 --> 00:23:48.680 going on concerning a particular victim and what they were 368 00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:52.079 asked to do on behalf of the authorities the authorities 369 00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:53.519 couldn't do on their own. 370 00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:59.559 Well, after Bundy was arrested down in Florida and facing 371 00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:03.279 all the eventually facing the death penalty, of course, he 372 00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:08.680 he confessed to a number of different victims and killings, 373 00:24:08.759 --> 00:24:12.400 and you know, some of this was probably to get 374 00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:15.359 attention from the police. And you know, he had an 375 00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:18.599 enormous ego, and and he also liked to taunt people. 376 00:24:18.839 --> 00:24:23.039 But one that had come out was a young woman 377 00:24:23.240 --> 00:24:28.279 in Bail, Colorado, the ski areas here, Julie Cunningham was 378 00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:35.279 disappeared one evening at kind of after after ski ski 379 00:24:35.359 --> 00:24:41.480 evening and and Bundy's talked about a young woman in 380 00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:44.319 Veil that he had met. He had sort of a 381 00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:47.839 had a fake cast on his leg and hobbling along 382 00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:51.039 on crutches with his ski boots and kind of spotted 383 00:24:51.079 --> 00:24:56.839 her and asked her to help him get to his car, 384 00:24:57.359 --> 00:24:59.759 uh and you know, and get his ski boots in 385 00:24:59.799 --> 00:25:01.640 there and all that sort of thing. And when he 386 00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:04.160 got her there, he knocked her out and he drove 387 00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:07.920 her west toward Grand Junction, Colorado, which is along the 388 00:25:07.960 --> 00:25:11.960 main interstate, and said he got out near a town, 389 00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:17.559 small town near Rifle, Colorado, and then took Julie off 390 00:25:17.559 --> 00:25:19.920 on a little side road that had a you know, 391 00:25:19.960 --> 00:25:24.759 he was describing the area. There weren't really any signs, 392 00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:29.319 and he raped her and killed her there and left 393 00:25:29.319 --> 00:25:33.160 her body there and told the police in Florida about this, 394 00:25:33.240 --> 00:25:37.640 and this got back to Colorado and the police and 395 00:25:37.720 --> 00:25:40.480 Veil said, yes, we do have a victim like that, 396 00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:44.160 Julie Cunningham, who disappeared one evening and has never been 397 00:25:44.279 --> 00:25:50.440 heard from again, same time, same approximate date. And so 398 00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:54.119 they this is one of the early early neck research 399 00:25:55.880 --> 00:25:58.599 times when they were contacted by the police and with 400 00:25:58.759 --> 00:26:01.559 a can you come out and help us? Uh. So 401 00:26:01.640 --> 00:26:03.440