WEBVTT 1 00:00:20.199 --> 00:00:23.120 Greetings friends, and welcome to the podcast of Jewish Ideas 2 00:00:23.160 --> 00:00:26.199 a Torah in motion production i'm jj Kimrie. Over the 3 00:00:26.280 --> 00:00:29.600 last thousand years or so, much of the intellectual creativity 4 00:00:29.640 --> 00:00:32.479 of Jewish scholars has been spent writing on matters of 5 00:00:32.520 --> 00:00:36.320 Halachah or Jewish law. Oceans of ink have been spilled 6 00:00:36.359 --> 00:00:39.320 on the endeavors of explaining and expanding Jewish law, which 7 00:00:39.359 --> 00:00:43.799 continue unabated to this day. Halaric writing comes in various forms, 8 00:00:43.799 --> 00:00:46.840 and in the past centuries has been rather dominated in 9 00:00:46.880 --> 00:00:51.280 certain respects by two specific forms. One is halaric codes, 10 00:00:51.320 --> 00:00:53.880 in which the author lists the bottom line of the 11 00:00:53.960 --> 00:00:56.479 law as he sees it, whereas the other is halarchic 12 00:00:56.520 --> 00:00:59.280 responsor a lot truvat, in which the scholar seeks to 13 00:00:59.320 --> 00:01:03.280 apply the law to specific cases. These two genres represent 14 00:01:03.399 --> 00:01:06.719 two entirely different ways of analyzing, applying, and conceiving of 15 00:01:06.760 --> 00:01:10.159 Jewish law. And there's these fruitful differences between these genres 16 00:01:10.239 --> 00:01:12.840 that shall be capturing our attention today. With us to 17 00:01:12.920 --> 00:01:16.480 talk about these genres of halahi writing is him Seman, 18 00:01:16.719 --> 00:01:19.120 a professor of law and chair in Jewish Law at 19 00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:22.120 Villanova University as well as a dian on the bed 20 00:01:22.120 --> 00:01:24.879 Din of America. He has published widely on topics in 21 00:01:24.920 --> 00:01:28.959 both American and Jewish law, including his acclaimed work Halacha, 22 00:01:29.319 --> 00:01:32.159 the Rabbinic Idea of Law, published by Princeton University Press 23 00:01:32.159 --> 00:01:34.959 in twenty eighteen. It is a pleasure to welcome Professor 24 00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:36.959 Simon to the Podcast of Jewish Ideas today. 25 00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:40.959 Welcome sir, Thank you, thank you, jayj. It's great being 26 00:01:41.000 --> 00:01:43.879 with you. Although usually we have some scotch and charllt 27 00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:47.640 when we meet after Kiddish, during Kiddish after sure, but 28 00:01:47.959 --> 00:01:50.079 we'll make do today with the virtual interface. 29 00:01:50.599 --> 00:01:53.680 I agree. It's usually usually conversations are greatly improved by 30 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:56.120 scotch and challenge, So today we'll have to have to 31 00:01:56.120 --> 00:01:58.799 see what we could do without it. So I'm interested 32 00:01:58.840 --> 00:02:02.519 in discussing these these two types of halakk writing. And 33 00:02:02.599 --> 00:02:04.719 so let's start a little bit with with halaki responsor, 34 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:07.680 because I think they are slightly older, and just ask. 35 00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:12.159 I mean, firstly, how would one define halaki responsor slats 36 00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:15.400 of true VOTs? What exactly are they? When did they emerge? 37 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:17.199 What are their principal characteristics? Give us a little of 38 00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:18.840 an overview of that. 39 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:22.360 Sure, So as the as the name that we use 40 00:02:22.439 --> 00:02:26.919 shlotin shoe vote indicates they kind of can include anything 41 00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:30.840 in which somebody asks a rabbi a question and the 42 00:02:30.919 --> 00:02:35.400 rabbi provides an answer in truth. Already in the Gamarah 43 00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:42.879 there are examples shall right so so so in some 44 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:47.919 sense the genre of shlotin shoe vote is already found 45 00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:51.919 in the Gamara, where questions are asked either and shallhoo 46 00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:54.800 sounds like they're sending some sort of writing, perhaps an 47 00:02:54.879 --> 00:02:59.479 oral message, hard to know, and they're getting a response back. 48 00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:03.520 But usually we don't think of something in the Gamara 49 00:03:03.599 --> 00:03:06.639 as prior to part of shaylatan chewe vote. So therefore 50 00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:09.879 the next phase or the gonme have have their own 51 00:03:09.960 --> 00:03:13.360 shayload to chew vote. Some of them are incredibly short. 52 00:03:13.800 --> 00:03:16.759 What does this word mean? Is one of my favorites 53 00:03:17.199 --> 00:03:19.919 right this. They're living in a world before Rashi, certainly 54 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:23.000 before arts girl, so people would ask what does this 55 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:25.759 word mean? Or what is this idea? And sometimes they 56 00:03:25.800 --> 00:03:31.520 are they are more complex. Over time, Shane Loan Tchubote 57 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:36.439 has come to be identified more with sort of questions 58 00:03:36.439 --> 00:03:41.879 on concrete particular cases that have come up. Those could 59 00:03:41.879 --> 00:03:44.280 be cases that come up in real life those can 60 00:03:44.360 --> 00:03:48.599 be kind of hypotheticals that are thought about, but something 61 00:03:48.639 --> 00:03:52.599 with a specific set of parameters. There are shaylotan Chu 62 00:03:52.639 --> 00:03:55.280 votes from the ear of the reshow name and there 63 00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:57.319 she looked to vote from the era of the early 64 00:03:57.400 --> 00:04:02.319 afroyme and as you said, up to including to this day. 65 00:04:02.759 --> 00:04:05.159 So it's a very you know, it's it's a very 66 00:04:05.240 --> 00:04:07.599 it's a little bit of a catch off phrase because 67 00:04:07.759 --> 00:04:10.000 it could be, as I said, as it's come to 68 00:04:10.039 --> 00:04:13.120 mean a kind of specific and relatively kind of crete 69 00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:16.959 ALACKI question. But some of the older ones certainly aren't 70 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:19.199 like that at all. They're literally things that people ask 71 00:04:19.319 --> 00:04:20.680 rabbis whatever they. 72 00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:23.279 Are, right, Okay, good, So now we've gone over that. 73 00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:25.279 And the truth is, as you mentioned before, it's it's 74 00:04:26.120 --> 00:04:27.639 one of the oldest poems I like writing we have, 75 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:30.399 but of course continues very much to this day. It 76 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:34.959 is arguably probably the most enduring vehicle of halak writing. 77 00:04:35.279 --> 00:04:38.959 Every year another volume, many more volumes are produced in 78 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:39.800 this in this genre. 79 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:42.480 Sure, and and this point of volumes I think I 80 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:45.000 think is important. In other words, and maybe we could 81 00:04:45.839 --> 00:04:49.079 is that it's I think today when someone says I'm 82 00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:51.800 going to write Shaylo two. They know that they're going 83 00:04:51.879 --> 00:04:54.639 to publish them, and they're going to be in the collections. 84 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:57.600 But certainly as we go back, it's not clear. And 85 00:04:57.639 --> 00:05:00.720 this is one of the big differences between the the genres. 86 00:05:00.759 --> 00:05:04.480 When someone writes alach code or alak commentary, right, they 87 00:05:04.519 --> 00:05:08.959 sort of know what they're doing, right, and you know, 88 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:11.000 certainly at some point they understood that this would be 89 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:15.439 disseminated and later published in print. Right. If you think 90 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:20.560 of your own correspondence, right, you correspond by orally by text, 91 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:25.399 by email, sometimes by email where you attach a PDF, right. 92 00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:28.600 And these are various layers of formality which are sort 93 00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:31.160 of like your assumptions about how much is this like 94 00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:34.120 an answer of the moment, like your wife says, hey, 95 00:05:34.120 --> 00:05:35.680 when are you coming home? And you say, you know, 96 00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:38.399 six point thirty, and then you know even if you 97 00:05:38.439 --> 00:05:40.160 may email it, but the fact that you may put 98 00:05:40.199 --> 00:05:42.759 it into a document in a PDF, like you're signaling 99 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:45.879 that this is something kind of more permanent, more important. 100 00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:47.959 And those are a range of things, and I think 101 00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:51.879 Shout and Chubaut sort of work the same way, at 102 00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:54.560 least when they're produced. Right. Some of them are very 103 00:05:54.639 --> 00:05:56.800 quick and dirty things. Of that moment, and some it's 104 00:05:56.879 --> 00:05:59.800 very clear that the author understands that he is writing 105 00:05:59.839 --> 00:06:03.480 some thing for the ages. Sometimes whether it's for the 106 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:06.680 ages or not is not understood until some ages have 107 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:10.519 happened in past. I think as we move in time, 108 00:06:10.600 --> 00:06:13.279 people have a better sense of what they're going to 109 00:06:13.319 --> 00:06:16.279 do with them, at least the ones that are published. 110 00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:19.279 But any important Rabbi is going to have lots and 111 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:23.040 lots of communications with you know, we'll call them his audience, 112 00:06:23.480 --> 00:06:26.120 right to varying degrees of formality. And therefore what shows 113 00:06:26.199 --> 00:06:28.360 up in a in a volume of de Vote and 114 00:06:28.360 --> 00:06:30.959 how it's published sort of you know, is a little 115 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:35.040 bit sporadic, but changes our assumptions about what it is. Something 116 00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:37.959 clearented in a volume called Child to Vote we read 117 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:39.839 as sort of being written for the ages, so it 118 00:06:39.879 --> 00:06:42.000 may not have been intended that way. 119 00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:45.279 Right, Okay, thank you for that that brief overview, and 120 00:06:45.279 --> 00:06:47.040 I'm going to ask you to do the same for 121 00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:51.680 al codes. Explain what you mean by that again, what 122 00:06:51.839 --> 00:06:54.879 is the scope? What do they intend to do? And 123 00:06:55.079 --> 00:06:57.519 I suppose again that's sort of a brief history of 124 00:06:57.560 --> 00:06:59.879 when they arise and whether they're still being written. 125 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:02.720 Sure, So let's start with the word codes. And as 126 00:07:02.759 --> 00:07:05.279 you mentioned, I'm a law professor and the law professor 127 00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:08.360 and me uses the term but doesn't love the term 128 00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:11.680 because to the modern ear, a code is something produced 129 00:07:12.040 --> 00:07:15.839 by some governing institution. Right, so we think of the 130 00:07:15.959 --> 00:07:17.959 you know, we're sitting here in the state of Pennsylvania 131 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:20.279 or the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. It has a code. The 132 00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:24.920 United States has codes, et cetera. And what makes those 133 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:29.439 authoritative is that the governing body is thought to be 134 00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:32.199 the sovereign in one sense or another that can produce those. 135 00:07:32.759 --> 00:07:35.160 In Halaha, it doesn't work that way. I don't know 136 00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:37.079 if the soun hedron ever published a code, but we 137 00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:41.079 don't have it. So the codes that we have, and 138 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:43.160 I think maybe a better way to think about them 139 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:46.120 as a word that lawyers use and non lawyers don't. 140 00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:49.959 It's called a restatement. We'll use codes. But what a 141 00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:53.000 restatement means is that somebody trying to restate what the 142 00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:57.160 law is, and therefore it's authority comes from people accepting it, 143 00:07:57.399 --> 00:08:00.000 as in the case of you vote. So they're not 144 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:03.600 codes in that sense of the modern usage. In as 145 00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:06.120 long as the listeners understand that I'm happy to use 146 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:10.639 the word so codes start with. I would say a 147 00:08:10.639 --> 00:08:14.279 certain type of problem is anyone who's learned Gamara knows 148 00:08:14.319 --> 00:08:18.160 that if you now want to make this massive work 149 00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:22.120 the basis of practice, gosh, that's very hard because there's 150 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:25.360 so much going on in there, some of it relevant, 151 00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:27.439 some of it not relevant, some of it relevant to 152 00:08:27.560 --> 00:08:31.240 other parts that it needs to be pared down. And 153 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:34.960 the earliest thing that's in the kind of code tradition 154 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:38.480 this is called the most famous one of those is 155 00:08:38.480 --> 00:08:42.000 al Hote Alfassi, also known as the Riff Riff standing 156 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:45.639 for Rebusk that Alfasi e fez right in North Africa, 157 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:49.960 who basically what he does largely is he he has 158 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:52.240 all imagine, he has all the talmlet on a computer 159 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:56.080 and he largely uses his cut function. So he takes 160 00:08:56.200 --> 00:08:59.639 out all the kind of back and forth all of 161 00:08:59.679 --> 00:09:02.759 the ad a looted to the dress shownk and focuses 162 00:09:02.919 --> 00:09:07.480 more or less on the bottom line, occasionally adding in 163 00:09:07.559 --> 00:09:10.720 his own voice. Although the vast bulk of the text 164 00:09:11.080 --> 00:09:14.320 is simply the Gamar's text, it preserved as to what 165 00:09:14.360 --> 00:09:19.159 he understood was like normative binding Hallja Bismann Haase and 166 00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:21.679 this era in other words, in the post temple, post 167 00:09:21.679 --> 00:09:25.879 monarchy era of what we probably call goblut. In fact, 168 00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:30.240 if one takes the new editions, you know, printed in 169 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:33.559 the last ten to fifteen years, they very usefully will 170 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:36.000 highlight in when one looks in the riff the parts 171 00:09:36.039 --> 00:09:39.399 that are in his voice, which is a super useful feature. 172 00:09:39.399 --> 00:09:42.120 And you see it's not the majority of it at all, 173 00:09:42.559 --> 00:09:45.440 so that it's not the first. There were precursors to that, 174 00:09:45.519 --> 00:09:49.000 but that's sort of the first thing in that tradition. However, 175 00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:54.240 it is in the Gamar's language and in the Gamar's order, 176 00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:58.360 and therefore lack of order. The first thing we might 177 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:02.600 call a code is of course the rambam, which is 178 00:10:02.720 --> 00:10:06.000 to some degree in some sense has not been surpassed. 179 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:08.639 In some sense it has right. What the Rambam does, 180 00:10:08.679 --> 00:10:11.399 he does a couple of very important things. First of all, 181 00:10:11.399 --> 00:10:15.799 he creates his own structure in Taxonomy fourteen books, right, 182 00:10:15.960 --> 00:10:19.039 something that maybe you could say there's some reference to 183 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:21.240 in the mission, but largely a thing of his own creation, 184 00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:25.679 and takes every alatan the talmud. And here he is 185 00:10:25.720 --> 00:10:29.159 following the riff, usually in the sense of which bits 186 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:33.639 in the Talmud he thinks are normative and which opinions are. 187 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:37.039 Except it's broader than the Riff because he covers everything 188 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:39.759 the Gamar talks about the riffs if it's not applicable, 189 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:43.279 Bisman hasaid, the Riff generally doesn't have it. The Rambam 190 00:10:43.399 --> 00:10:47.399 has everything. He also changes the language. It's not in 191 00:10:47.480 --> 00:10:50.519 the Talmudic language, but it's in something that's pretty close 192 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:54.080 to modern Hebrew or close ish based on the shne Hebrew, 193 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:56.360 and therefore it's an easy read to the modern reader. 194 00:10:56.759 --> 00:11:00.519 And he creates a conceptual structure for it to some 195 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:02.360 degree to how he views a laha and to what 196 00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:07.240 he views as the mitzvote rita in each topic. So 197 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:10.480 that's the Rombum. There's more to say. What he doesn't 198 00:11:10.519 --> 00:11:13.799 do is he doesn't retain any of them a cloak it, 199 00:11:14.600 --> 00:11:17.440 any of the various opinions that are found in the Gamara, 200 00:11:17.559 --> 00:11:22.879 and he largely does not pay attention to post Talmudic developments. 201 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:25.200 I don't want to say never, but that's certainly not 202 00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:27.240 a feature of the Rombum. So you could think of 203 00:11:27.240 --> 00:11:30.399 it as what he says, he's trying to summarize the 204 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:34.720 rules in the Tumul now it is ingenious. And you know, 205 00:11:34.759 --> 00:11:37.200 even today, if we have all the databases and all 206 00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:40.000 the ais and all the computers, it's it's it's mind 207 00:11:40.039 --> 00:11:43.200 boggling how we did this even with our technology, how 208 00:11:43.279 --> 00:11:49.039 Vahlmer with basically very very primitive technology. So it's it's 209 00:11:49.039 --> 00:11:53.759 truly a master work. And in some sense, nothing like 210 00:11:53.799 --> 00:11:57.000 this has really been attempted to that scale since obviously 211 00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:01.879 there's some asterisks to that point. That's Rombumb the next 212 00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:05.639 probably most famous code. There are others, but the one 213 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:09.039 that really kind of takes up central space is known 214 00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:13.679 as the Arbaturim, written by yakovman Usher or the son 215 00:12:13.799 --> 00:12:17.559 of the Rush, and it is known today commonly as 216 00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:20.440 the Tour. The Tour is different from the Rhmbam in 217 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:23.200 a few different ways. First of all, it doesn't have 218 00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:28.039 fourteen books, but four. And importantly, it only deals in 219 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:30.519 this sense. It follows the Riff more closely in only 220 00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:33.480 dealing with those laws that are applicable in what we 221 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:36.679 call bisman Haze right in this era or in the 222 00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:39.840 era that they lived in. So it does not have 223 00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:42.559 laws of the temple and laws of the sacrifices and 224 00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:46.159 laws of purity largely and even only a little bit 225 00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:48.519 of laws that applied to the land of Israel, because 226 00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:52.080 they're asserving they're living without it. Drop in there, but 227 00:12:52.120 --> 00:12:56.039 basically not. The Tour is also different in that he 228 00:12:56.159 --> 00:13:01.679 is he retains some debates, and he is much more 229 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:06.759 interested in post Talmudic applications, so he will cite frequently 230 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:09.159 from the toast Slot and the other reshow Neme that 231 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:11.320 are talking not just what the law of the Talmud is, 232 00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:16.480 but how it became instantiated in practice in the various 233 00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:20.879 communities in which people lived. So the Rambomb is much 234 00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:23.159 more classical in the sense is much more driven by 235 00:13:23.159 --> 00:13:26.879 the Talmud, whereas the Tour begins to fill that gap, 236 00:13:27.159 --> 00:13:29.200 and he's writing at the end of the period of 237 00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:32.279 the reshiow Nme and largely collects not everything, but a 238 00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:36.279 lot of that material in there. The four sections I 239 00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:40.759 assume are fairly well known are highm right, which actually 240 00:13:40.759 --> 00:13:44.320 is an ingenious arrangements. It's three cycles. It's the cycle 241 00:13:44.360 --> 00:13:46.879 of the day starting with waking up, It's on the 242 00:13:46.919 --> 00:13:49.399 cycle of the week i e. Shabas and Aravin, and 243 00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:52.519 on the cycle of the year yaridaea, which is a 244 00:13:52.519 --> 00:13:55.039 little bit more of a grab bag is largely kosher, 245 00:13:55.960 --> 00:14:01.360 and then other ritual laws evan As is about marriage, 246 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:04.080 family and divorce law and closi mishbud is, you know, 247 00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:07.480 procedure and substance of the civil law, and the sort 248 00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:12.519 of halachic court system. That is the tour. That and 249 00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:17.279 then after that comes the Shokanauch, which has an interesting 250 00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:22.159 sort of story because the Lano basically adopts the tour's structure. 251 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:26.240 So his four main books and the chapter divisions in 252 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:30.240 between them are taken from from the tour. Now the 253 00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:34.399 is written BYO raviosv. Cairo, who really begins by writing 254 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:39.559 a Betjo Seth right, his sort of encyclopedic compendium slash 255 00:14:39.559 --> 00:14:43.360 commentary written as a commentary on the tour. And if 256 00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:45.799 we had the bay, if we had Joseph Cairo here 257 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:48.200 on the podcast, he would say, that is my work. 258 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:50.639 That is how be remembered, That is my by it right, 259 00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:53.600 that is my estate. I think people trys to his house, 260 00:14:53.639 --> 00:14:54.799 but if you look at how he writes it, I 261 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:56.679 think like, sort of the estate of your states is 262 00:14:56.679 --> 00:14:59.879 probably the way I would say it. Then later on 263 00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:01.679 he said, you know what, that's a very long and 264 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:04.840 complicated work let me try to summarize the main points 265 00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:07.080 from it. And he did that, and he called the 266 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:09.639 shikhanaruch like I'm sending the table for you. This is 267 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:11.960 the kind of head notes of it. And that's the 268 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:15.840 way it reads. But you know, whatever revosif Cairo intended 269 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:19.559 history had it, or Hashkeetha had it, maybe those are 270 00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:23.080 the same thing that that became the work that we 271 00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:27.840 call colloquially the code of Jewish law. And therefore that 272 00:15:27.879 --> 00:15:32.200 then becomes, since that's published with the commentary of the Rama, 273 00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:34.360 which we'll come back to in a second, that becomes 274 00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:39.240 the main sort of framework of apply Jewish law really 275 00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:42.759 to this day. We might talk about more contemporary innovations 276 00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:45.039 in a second. Just a word on the Rama. So 277 00:15:45.159 --> 00:15:48.639 Ravos if Cairo is from the Spardik tradition and was 278 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:53.399 largely very influenced by the Rambam and is somewhat less 279 00:15:53.399 --> 00:15:58.480 influenced by the ballets vote and the Ashkenazic tradition. The 280 00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:00.759 Rama who's re of motion is who lives in the 281 00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:04.559 crackout at roughly the same time that Ragulosa Kiro was 282 00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:08.000 writing in Spot sees this work and then adds his 283 00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:11.960 own glosses to it, reflecting more of the Ashagnasok school 284 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:14.600 of thought, and many scholars say that the success of 285 00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:18.399 this work is precisely because it combines both of these, 286 00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:20.519 and basically since the very first printing of the bait 287 00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:23.440 of the Schoharu, which was just him, from the second 288 00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:27.039 printing on it has always been published with the Hagota rama, 289 00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:30.799 the commentary or the editions of the rama, and together 290 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:33.399 those are sort of known as the shukan. 291 00:16:33.799 --> 00:16:37.960 Right, and so those are as you outlined it with 292 00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:42.879 admirable sucinctness. I think the three major ones have there 293 00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:45.919 been codes ever since because one could argue possibly, but 294 00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:49.559 since the shukar there is only commentary. Is that is 295 00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:50.200 that plausible? 296 00:16:50.840 --> 00:16:55.399 So I would say yes, and no, you know, there's 297 00:16:55.480 --> 00:16:58.600 one could say that. And really the tour they sort 298 00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:01.559 of have to be taken together because structure they basically 299 00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:05.960 displaced the Rambam. So, you know, I think as a 300 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:11.160 artistic manner, the rambum is a superior work. It's conceptually organized, 301 00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:15.559 language is clear and beautiful, it's an ingenious structure. But 302 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:19.839 basically the while the Rambam as his Halakic sock, becomes 303 00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:24.200 super important. His wave of organizing and conceptualizing Halaha. Doesn't 304 00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:27.720 that really belongs to to the tour? And then I 305 00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:29.079 would like to say the tour because I think he 306 00:17:29.079 --> 00:17:31.599 gets short terped He came up with the structure. Others 307 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:34.160 built on it in part because the rama deals with 308 00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:39.759 everything and the tour really deals only with practice Tamaha. Now, 309 00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:43.440 since then, as you said, there's there's then in the 310 00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:48.240 generations after, there's waves of commentaries on it, some written 311 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:53.160 directly as commentaries in terms of new codifications. The one 312 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:56.039 that I think everyone would point to Isan and one 313 00:17:56.039 --> 00:17:59.960 will notice the wordplay there, which doesn't cover every single thing, 314 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:03.440 but most of it. And it's a sort of assimilative 315 00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:07.759 commentary code. In other words, it's written with the same 316 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:12.000 chapter headings and as the Shokhan Ruch, and it tries 317 00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:15.119 to kind of retell the Sugia if it starts with 318 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:17.400 Pukim from Sukim, if it starts from the Gamar from 319 00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:20.519 the Gamara, and kind of fold in all the various 320 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:24.200 kind of commentaries that have come on along the way. 321 00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:27.559 It's very influential because it's very well written. The other 322 00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:31.079 famous one is only on Orsiam is the Mission of Brewer, 323 00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:34.440 which you know, takes a large space, particularly on issues 324 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:36.839 that it relates to. But it, as you noted, is 325 00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:40.400 really written as a commentary on the Shokran Ruhe, although 326 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:43.079 you know, it's a little bit of its own thing, 327 00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:45.359 but at least that's the way it's graphically written, and 328 00:18:45.400 --> 00:18:47.039 that's the way it's meant to be read. It is 329 00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:49.640 it is on the Chican roof. You know. In more 330 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:55.039 recent times, certainly certain areas of Alaha, particularly areas that 331 00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:59.319 are not well covered in the Chokan, have seen various 332 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:02.599 kind of codes and treatments to them, but none have 333 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:07.359 reached the sort of level of the ubiquitous uh both 334 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:11.599 popularity and authority as the as the But for example, 335 00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:15.960 I have on on matters of hoshin Mishbat, there's a 336 00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:19.920 ten volume treatise called Pitre Fochen or Peture Fosian, written 337 00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:22.559 by a rabbi who lived in New Shilaim in the 338 00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:24.880 latter half of the twentieth century, which for anyone involved 339 00:19:24.920 --> 00:19:28.920 in that world is very influential. One's doing Arevin or Micava, 340 00:19:29.319 --> 00:19:32.319 door Trumant de Mastro. You know, there's there's there's various 341 00:19:32.359 --> 00:19:35.839 sort of areas, specific things that have become very important. 342 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:39.200 But in terms of this sort of monumental thing that 343 00:19:39.240 --> 00:19:42.920 everyone understands the code, I think it remains with the Chikan. 344 00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:47.000 I would say one fairly interesting and new development is 345 00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:50.839 Rabbail Lazar Malhammad in Israel has been writing a series 346 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:54.119 of books called nine Hawaja, which is a kind of 347 00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:57.680 modern recasting and has become very very popular in sort 348 00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:00.680 of the datilu me community in in Israel, and of 349 00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:03.799 course hasn't replaces, but I think it might be replacing 350 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:07.160 the mission of Brewer. It's more modern Hebrew, it's it 351 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:11.119 has also theological framework to it, finishing work that's worth 352 00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:14.000 study itself. So that's sort of the way I see 353 00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:15.720 the lay of the land at the moment. 354 00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:19.400 Okay, fair enough, Now let's uh, I do to ask 355 00:20:19.400 --> 00:20:21.920 a little bit more about codes. But before I do, 356 00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:25.319 I mean the sort of I think crux the central 357 00:20:25.400 --> 00:20:27.920 question I really want to ask here is, you know, 358 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:30.920 what are the advantages or disadvantags of writing in these 359 00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:33.039 two genres, because in some senses, of course, they are opposite. 360 00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:35.720 And I'll let you elaborate on that, but sort of 361 00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:38.480 what can one do in a code that one can't 362 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:39.720 do in response and vice? 363 00:20:39.799 --> 00:20:39.960 Vice? 364 00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:43.400 And what would push one to write or read or 365 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:47.039 adopt a code like a way of writing halaa? What 366 00:20:47.079 --> 00:20:50.319 would push one towards a responsor manner of writing and 367 00:20:50.359 --> 00:20:52.119 reading an application of halaca? 368 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:55.079 Sure, so let me start not in the Halaki tradition, 369 00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:59.039 but in the Western tradition. So the common law, which 370 00:20:59.079 --> 00:21:01.519 is the system that is from England and this sort 371 00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:05.119 of the basis of American, Canadian, Australian and all the 372 00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:08.119 English speaking law, has a very different view on this 373 00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:11.519 from from the systems emerging in continental Europe, which typically 374 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:15.920 called the Romanist systems. The common law believes that that 375 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:19.480 that really it's the reality of a case with its 376 00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:24.400 specific facts and the pressures of coming to a determination 377 00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:28.039 that sort of produces the ideal law right, and it's 378 00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:30.839 only and that law must be forged within the context 379 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:36.079 of a decision that will be actuated, that has that 380 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:39.480 is sort of coming from a particular case. And sometimes 381 00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:42.160 it's called law in action, or at least it tells 382 00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:45.119 that way, and it is a little bit suspicious of 383 00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:48.440 more academic projects what it calls law in the books 384 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:51.440 that are sort of dealing with sort of abstract principles 385 00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:56.200 but not forged within the sort of reality or the 386 00:21:56.279 --> 00:22:00.039 you know, the potentiality of being effectuated the Roman in 387 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:03.480 this systems. Think the opposite is that the only way 388 00:22:03.480 --> 00:22:05.400 to do this right is to step back and have 389 00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:08.880 a plan and have your concepts, and have that kind 390 00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:12.319 of carry through each and every bit of the law 391 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:16.319 creating or law writing enterprise, and that every specific case 392 00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:19.119 is too tied to the quirks of its facts or 393 00:22:19.160 --> 00:22:21.880 any kind of particular things that come up there, or 394 00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:26.160 any pressures of the moment or any exigencies to trust it. 395 00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:28.839 And also so that is again that we have not 396 00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:30.839 talked about Jewish law yet. But this is kind of 397 00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:33.559 like there are two broadly speaking, and I'm a little 398 00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:36.319 over dramatizing, but there are kind of two schools of 399 00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:39.680 thought about this, and I think you see these reflected 400 00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:42.119 in the Halachic literature as well. If we start with 401 00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:44.000