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Speaker 1: You want some great coffee to bring to your coffee

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hour for after liturgy? Whurra, how about just to drink

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every morning on your own. When I do drink coffee,

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this is the only brand I drink. Fox and Son's Coffee.

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They believe over there, my man Stephen Fox believes that

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coffee should come with a great story. His began on

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Saturday mornings with his dad, early breakfasts, good conversation, and

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a shared cup of coffee that sparked a lifelong passion.

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Those memories shaped who he is and inspired him to

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start this company, Fox and Son's Coffee, not just for

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the love of the coffee itself, but to honor his

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father and past, something meaningful to his two sons. Now

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he's inviting you and me to be part of that legacy.

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If you guys need gifts, if you just love coffee,

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and like I said, maybe you just want to bring

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some to the parish for coffee hour, Now is the

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perfect time to try these handcrafted, family inspired blens. We've

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got a code for you. Buck fifteen at checkout. B

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u c K fifteen at checkout gets you fifteen percent

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off all orders over thirty five dollars. So you can

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save big and sip better coffee than you may be

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used to. This coffee again is made with love, roasted

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with purpose, Shared with family Fox and Sons. Coffee Brood

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from the heart. This is a dissident media production.

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Speaker 2: Doc.

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Speaker 1: You're tuned in to the counter Float counter Flow Podcast,

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home of dissident voices, unapproved opinion. But you gotta get

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ready ready.

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Speaker 3: Counter counter Float Float, counter counter Flock. Now here's your

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host and humble narrators, Buck Johnson. Let's got.

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Speaker 1: What's up you guys. Welcome back once again to the

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Counterflow Podcast. As always, I am your host and humble narrator,

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Buck Johnson, coming to you out of Lockhart, Texas, the

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barbecue capital of the world. I bring that up specifically

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right now because it's bright week. We made it through Lent,

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did our pasca. We can eat barbecue once again, and

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I'm thoroughly stoked about that. I hope you guys had

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a beautiful, wonderful edifying pasca and again to kick off

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our post Lent season, here one of the best, one

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of my absolute favorite content creators, Jay Dyer, is here

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with us, the great Jay Dyer, just to see how

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busy this fella is just go to Jaysanalysis dot com.

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You'll see a section videos and interviews, of course, but

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film review, film analysis, comedy and satire, which is quite

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quite good at theology and philosophy, talks, articles and essays,

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a section on geopolitics, globalist book series lectures that he's

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done all kinds of great stuff over at jays Analysis

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dot com. And he does the debates. That's what he's

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really known for. It seems like, at least to me.

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I love watching the debates. There's this reputation amongst a

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small section of people that he's mean or something like that. Well,

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I can tell you from my personal dealings with him,

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he's been nothing but humble, kind and gracious, and I'm

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thankful that he's cut out a little window of time

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for me. We were supposed to do this a few

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weeks ago. He got busy. He specifically sent me voice

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messages apologizing for the slip. He's not ignoring me. He

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wanted to do this, So that goes to show you

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he's never been some mean guy to me. Again, I

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don't want to debate him, but I wouldn't have anything

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really to debate him about. We get into that, why

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does he do these debates. What is the value of

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the debates? I offer my thoughts on it, and he

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goes some places where I hadn't thought of before. When

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it's really really interesting, we talk about his quote unquote

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journey through the faith. He's been steeped in Protestantism, Calvinism, Catholicism,

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and each step along the way he started wrestling with

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these heresies that he's seeing, started doing research and realized

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I can't square certain circles. I've got to change and move,

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until ultimately he found the church, the Orthodox Church. We

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even get into some of the stuff we got into

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with Father John Whiteford Schofield, John Nelson, Darby, Hal Lindsay

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and the late Great Planet Earth, pre tribulation, rapture and dispensationalism.

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All sorts of heresies we discuss, and again I slide

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it into the story of his faith journey, into where

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he's at now. And so, without further ado, Jay Dyer,

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Welcome to the show, sir, how are you?

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Speaker 4: I'm great, Buck, Thanks for having me back and looking

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forward to it. I've been one to I never turned

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down an opportunity to go after dispensational lossum or any

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of these kinds of goofy views.

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Speaker 1: So glad to be here. I've noticed. It's funny I

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went in. You know, when you become orthodox, you got

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this zealous nature about you, or at least I did,

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and I was eating everything you did, the debates. And

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then I got to a period where I was like,

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I can't just watch debates anymore. It's too draining, or

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I can't take the arguing back and forth. And then

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so I fell out of it, and now, like the

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last I would say, three months, I can't get enough

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of it, Like I'm back into it again. Yeah, there's phases,

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and it happens with me too.

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Speaker 4: I get sick of debating and have to take breaks

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from it and do other things.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I totally feel you on that. I learn

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a lot, though, So I think it's like I opened

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my mind to it more or something like that. And

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now I watch you your debates and there's so much

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to take away from most of them. I there was

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one with the clip that someone made of you. I

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think it's Orthodox clips or something that clips your stuff.

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And the wine, the wine mom or the wine lady.

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I didn't necessarily learn from it, but it was it

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was beautiful as as you were doing, and I'm like, Phronsia,

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what the heck? And then yeah, it was great.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, sometimes the comedy is you need it, there's unintentional

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comedy goal that just sort of emerges.

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Speaker 1: That's that's fun, fun part of the two. Yes, I

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feel like I should start this by saying unmute dude,

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but we won't. We won't do that. And it's it

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seems silly to have you give an intro as to

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who you are, because I would dare say every single

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person that watches my show knows who you are. But

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I think we can plug you have a new one.

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I've got this one. Now you've got a part three,

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I believe, talk about that. Yeah. Thanks.

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Speaker 4: So the third one was completed maybe a month or two. Oh,

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and it won't be available from the printer until July,

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in other words, for delivery. But I noticed that the

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publisher had already put up a pre order on Amazon,

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so I went ahead and put up the pre order.

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For those who want sign copies, you can get it

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from my website shop. And this one was a little

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bit different than the first two. I mean, it's a

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lot of the same type of material in the sense

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that if you liked what was in one and two,

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you'll like part three.

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Speaker 1: But there's a lot of movies that I never.

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Speaker 4: Got to that I always thought, oh man, I should

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have should have put that one in there. I should

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have done this one. I should have you know, I

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never hit any of the Marvel nonsense. I never hit

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Christopher Nolan. There's a lot of B movies that were

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that were fun that I wanted to decode. And then

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there's quite a bit of other stuff that might be

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a little dark in the sense of like I'm trying

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to think out of say it on YouTube, SRA type

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things in film that I wanted to talk about, like

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True Detective season one, that kind of stuff. Yes, Black

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Mirror was a big chapter in the new book, and

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then of course around it out with apocalypse themed films and.

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Speaker 1: Feminism.

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Speaker 4: I went there's a significant chapter on Hollywood feminism, this

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promotion of the idea of the goddess archetype. You know,

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Katie Perry just got back from space and she says

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that crying. She says she connected with the goddess when

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she was in space. So Hollywood, you know, and movies

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have been really pushing the feminist line for a really

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long time, so I thought it was it was necessary

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to really go into the depths of that. So that's

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Part three. It's going to be more movies than the

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previous ones. I think I've got just under one hundred

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movies that I analyzed in Part three, whereas the other

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ones were probably fifty. So there's more bang for your buck.

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And yeah, so thanks for plugging that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, are you I heard you mentioned recently

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and it was exciting to me. Severance is one of

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the best shows I've seen in a long time. Granted

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I don't watch a lot of shows or series and

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things like that. You're going to do a breakdown of

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that at some point, we will.

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Speaker 4: I mean I watched season one and I liked it,

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and I haven't had time really to do season two because.

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Speaker 1: The Third Hollywood Book, this book took a really long time.

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Speaker 4: I mean it was like, yeah, most of it was

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not written.

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Speaker 1: With partly one.

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Speaker 4: In part two they were mostly written, so I just

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kind of had to go back in and tweak a

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lot of things. And there was a couple of new

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essays for part one and part two, but this one

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was largely I would say half of it ran new,

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so it took me a significant amount of time to write.

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And then there's still things I didn't get to. I

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didn't get to Under the Silver Lake, I didn't get

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too savarant I didn't get too.

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Speaker 1: So some of the films that I really wanted to.

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Speaker 4: So maybe there'll be an esoteric Hollywood for you know,

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if this one does good. But right, yeah, well, Jamie

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and I will probably do like a podcast on that

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one or something.

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Speaker 1: Is someone told me to ask you this. I hadn't

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even thought about it, but it's we're kind of leading

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into it with this discussion already. What is is the

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future of quote unquote the Hollywood industry? Do you think

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it's bleak? Is it headed downhill? Is there going to

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be a resurgence? What are your thoughts on where film

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is headed? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I titled it sex Cults and Apocalypse in Films because

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the first two were sess calls and symbols in film.

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And you know, it's not that this one doesn't have

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symbolic analysis. It does, but it just sort of ended

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up being sort of providential that the third one in

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the trilogy, which you know, if it completes the trilogy,

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that's fine, because this is basically ten years of writing

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on Hollywood and film going back to when the first

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one came out in twenty sixteen. It's almost like hollywoods

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pretty much dead in the sense of the old studio system.

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So yeah, it's kind of rebirthing, I guess through Amazon

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Studios and Apple Studios and Netflix and online streaming services,

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but also video games I think are taken over.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, could you put some some I knewn the

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next in the next batch. Thank you, Hi Jamie, Hello Jag,

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Thank you James.

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Speaker 4: The allergies are like so bad here today that I'm

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having to take like four holistic allergy pills and it's

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not it's still not working anyway, So I forgot what

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I was going about. Studio sys is dead. It's gonna

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be like streaming. But also like I don't gen Z

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they don't even watch movies. They have an attention spent

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of than that, like they just scroll. In twenty years,

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I might not even have movies anymore. Like movies will

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be a trailer and you'll be la three minutes, and

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then the gen Z when they, you know, are making movies,

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there'll be three minute movies.

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Speaker 1: Yeah that's that's Yeah, I get kids at the fire station.

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And I'll sometimes I say kids, they're in their twenties

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or whatever, and I see them. It's just I can

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hear like a clip that they're watching and it's gone

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in thirty seconds onto the next one, boom boom boom.

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And some I've asked one, what do you what are

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you watching reels? What did you search? Nothing? I just

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scroll them. Okay, interesting, it's weird, Yeah it is. It

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is weird.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 1: I think to get into what we're going to talk about,

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this dispensationalism and Schofield, and we're going to go all

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over the place. But part of how you know a

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lot about this, other than just researching and researching and

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researching and reading, is that you were Protestant, as was I.

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H I say this. My listeners know this, so they're

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probably tired of hearing it. But I when I was

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a teenager, I went to John Hagen's church. I assume

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you know who he is.

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Speaker 4: Well, when I was a teenager, I bought his prophecy

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study Bible.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so yeah, that's one of the reasons I feel

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like part of my show is repenting for the bloods

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of Israel. Yes, and now knowing what I know about

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Schofield and dispensationalism, I didn't. I was swimming in it

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at the time, and you're a I was a teenager.

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So it's just I just thought he was cool because

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he yelled a lot and it was kind of passionate

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about things. But to think back, he's got Israeli flags

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on his stage and American flags, which is also strange

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at this point being Orthodox. But I can't figure out now.

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I don't know if it's it's important to know if

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he's purposely a subversive element in the church or the church,

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I say, in Christianity, or he just honestly believes all

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this stuff. And it's like when you see someone online

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who's a celebrity and they're promoting something bad, what they're

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paid to not know anything but what they're saying. What

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are your thoughts on him as well?

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Speaker 4: If you remember, there was a huge debacle in the

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late two thousands when he put out a book that

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Jesus is not the Messiah.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember that? No? Okay? I was once about

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nineteen ninety eight when I moved to Austin and was

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a I got into Alex Jones and some of that

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stuff in rom Paul, and then I just kind of

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became an atheist libertarian for twenty years until I found orthodoxy.

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So I kind of fell away from Hagy. That's why

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I call some of what he's doing in those type

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of churches atheist factories. But do tell what was the.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you can still find the ad floating around, but

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it was something like the premise of the book. It

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was supposed to have this sort of you know, spicy

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title that we get your attention, and it's because of dismissationalism.

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It's Jesus is not the Messiah to the Jews because

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the Jews are expecting the conquering Davidic king. So Jesus

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is not that messiah. Jesus is the Messiah that is,

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the suffering servant who you know, saves gentiles. And then

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we'll come back the But I mean, it's just still

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it's still a heretical premise because Jesus is the Messiah

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in every sense. There's no sense to which she's not.

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So the title of the book is it was a

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huge debacle. I'm pretty sure. I don't know, I didn't

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follow all the details, but it was a huge scandal

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when it came out and maybe two thousand and nine

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to ten, okay, two thousand and eight, but they pulled

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I think they pulled the book because it was such

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a debacle. And but you can still find the ads,

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you know, like the TV ads for the for the book.

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So that's just one example of kind of how silly

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this whole stuff is. And I'm pretty sure that there

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is a direct correlation between Apac and his shirt.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, great new sponsor Tiger Fitness dot com slash counterflow.

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your family and your body's self reliance and all of

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these things. Tigerfitness dot com, slash counterflow. I remember back

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00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,240
in two thousand and eight, I was heavy into politics.

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I was on the Ron Paul Revolution train and putting

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up signs all over Austin. I remember that's when McCain

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was the candidate and for the Republicans, and he got

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it was kind of oh my god, John Hagey, this

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controversial pastor endorses McCain their friends, And at the time

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I thought, why is that controversial? I mean whatever, And

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now looking back though, it makes a lot of sense

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if you consider McCain's foreign policy and where Hagy was

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coming from with apac it seems to all be tied

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in when you were a Protestant. And I asked this

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because there's this new wave of Protestantism. Father John White,

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for Jim Jatris and myself did a critique of Pastor

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Joel Webbin and his guys that were making fun a

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little bit of orthodoxy and quote unquote Ortho bros. But

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having said that podcast, oh yeah, cool, that strain of

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Protestantism is at least pushing back on dispensationalism and the

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quote unquote chosen people and this sort of thing. So

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it's kind of refreshing. It's different than the Protestantism that

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I grew up in. When you were a Protestant, what

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sort of things were circling and that was it? Dispensationalism?

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Was it? The chosen people? Was at the Schofield reference

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Bible what sort of Protestantism were you on.

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Speaker 4: I went into the Calvinism that that those guys are into.

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So I went from Evangelical Protestant when I was eighteen nineteen.

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I bought the John Hagey prophecy studied Bible when I

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was nineteen, and then.

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Speaker 1: I started noticing I had a sco filled Bible too.

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Speaker 4: On top of that, I started noticing like things that

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I just couldn't explain, things that didn't make sense. But

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I was also interested in going to Bible College at

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the time. So when I first got to Bible College,

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one of the positives I would say.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's kind of goofy A was Baptist.

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Speaker 4: But there was a lot of challenging of positions, and

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so all the young guys would kind of debate positions

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and we would all, you know, we go hang out

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and we talk about different theological traditions and schools, and

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I remember being specifically challenged on some of the dispensational assumptions.

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And we were looking into Covenant theology. We were looking

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into the harmony of the Old and New Testament versus

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seeing it as a thing that was, you know, in

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some sort of antithesis or that there's dual covenants between

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the Jews in the church, and I bought several books

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at the time. I remember reading a book on a

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Millennialism from a Baptist guy, I remember reading a book

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on Covenant theology from some of the Baptists and Calvinist guys.

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And eventually I just felt like there was just no

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biblical support at all for the dispensationals position. And so

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I didn't really know where I was at eschaeologically in

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terms of end times views, but I just didn't believe

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the dispensational view anymore. It's just too incoherent. The Bible

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is arbitrarily chopped up into these different stages. And the

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key decider for me was the fact that every one

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of the covenants is unified in the person of Christ.

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And so Paul says in the New Testament when he

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writes to the Corinthians, he says that all the promises,

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meaning covenant promises, are ye in Christ. So that means

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there was a unifying factor. And then the more that

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I got into typeulogy and understand the relationship between the

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foreshadowing elements of the Old Testament pointing to the fulfillment

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that we have in Christ as profit priest and king.

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Just all of these arguments of this fissure or these

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arbitrarily plan God has to do Plan B because Plan

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A failed, and they has to do Plan C.

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Speaker 1: And you know, that's the dispensational sort of chopped up

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view of history.

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Speaker 4: Eventually it just falls apart because each covenant is a

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coherent expansion of the previous to the culmination in the

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covenant with the Messiah. And I think another couple, you know,

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big dominoes to fallward, like Daniel nine, is not arbitrarily

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splitting the week's prophecy.

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Speaker 1: It's the same final week prophecy.

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Speaker 4: And if you understand that, then that's the Messiah's first advent.

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And then I think another big fail was when I

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noticed in the New Testament, every time the apostle cite

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sit in my right hand to make your enemies your

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footstill some one ten at least some and them asoretic

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that's always seen about Christ ascension.

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Speaker 1: It's not the end of the world.

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Speaker 4: And so every time I would look at that, you know,

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they would push this to the end of the world.

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Speaker 1: The dispensational list.

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Speaker 4: When New Testament writers were speaking of this as a

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present reality that the church possesses at the ascension. And so,

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you know, then I got into partial preterism. I read

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tons of books from Peter Lightheart, Ken Gentry, David Chiltern,

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Gary North, Greg Bonson, all those guys, even though they

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were rushed uniing, even though they were Protestant Calvinists, they

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had really good critiques of dispensationalism. And then there was

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a book that Ken, Gentry and Bonson wrote together, Cold

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House Divided, which was a critique of dispensationalism. And so

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pretty much by when I was like nineteen twenty, when

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I had Bible College, all that dispensationalist stuff was pretty

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much just demolished.

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Speaker 1: So, you know, wasn't moving in the direction of ancient

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churches yet.

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Speaker 4: But I had seen that dismisationalism is just kind of crazy,

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it doesn't make sense. I didn't know that the geopolitical

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stuff yet, like about apac and its influenced, but just

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from a biblical standpoint, I could tell that, you know, this,

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the harmony of the Old and New Testaments was just

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sort of destroyed through this goofy argument.

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Speaker 1: Father John Whiteford and I did an episode on this,

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as you know, on Schofield and John Nelson Darby. I'm

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trying to kind of pinpoint where this theology quote unquote

422
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theology started, why it happened, And you just mentioned the

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APAC connection. Of course APAC was not around and when

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John Nelson Darby was that I know of. But there

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seems to be some sort of tie in with geopolitical

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issues and dispensationalism Schofield where this started. Can you tie

427
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some of that together.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I've discussed this many many years ago on a podcast,

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and I'm not accusing anybody of stealing the information from me,

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because I think other people had noticed this in the

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past as well.

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Speaker 1: This is not some unknown thing.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it was kind of known in terms of

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critiques that people had made for many many years. And

435
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then I think it's gotten more popular with There's a

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guy who became orthodox, James Pearlman, but he did a

437
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bunch of he became Orthodox, he did a bunch of

438
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critiques of this as well on a various podcasts, and

439
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then Ian Carroll more recently talked about this with Joe

440
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Rogan or Candace I don't remember who, but there is

441
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some kind of interesting timing. I don't know if we can.

442
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I mean, somebody could probably go write a book and

443
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find the exact documentation. I don't know that there's some

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perfect documentation that has the Rawtels saying that they want to,

445
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you know, fund the Scofield Bible. But you have Oxford

446
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University printing the Schofield Bible to be marketed in the West,

447
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particularly in America, right around the time that the British

448
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Empire was wanting to, you knows, set up basically their

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outposts in the Middle East, which was Israel.

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Speaker 1: So you have the bal for Declaration, and you have the.

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Speaker 4: You know, the Palestine Mandate, all these different British Mandate

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positions that they wanted to make sure America was on

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board with. And it's a very viable thesis that the

454
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Oxford Schofield Bible was promoted in America to help the

455
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sway the opinion. That doesn't mean that the people who

456
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put the Bible out didn't actually believe this. I'm sure

457
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Ci Schofield and John Darby really believed their positions. I

458
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don't think they were con man. I just think that

459
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they were in delusion, as many Protestants and Evangelicals are.

460
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But I don't exactly I mean, the beginnings of the

461
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Plymouth Brethren were these Anglicans who were low church Anglicans

462
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who wanted to begin these sort of house Bible study

463
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,359
churches or these sort of decentral it's kind of the

464
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early phases of what we think of as like a

465
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non denominational house church or something like this. And so

466
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they they weren't really Anglicans, but they come out of Anglicanism,

467
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the Plymouth Brethren, and they're kind of a weird puritanical

468
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type of thing. They spawned weirdos like Alister Crowley, the

469
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:38,440
famous Satanist, was actually raised as a Plymouth Brethren, and

470
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one of their guys just decided that he had read

471
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:47,680
the Bible and figured out all the prophetic stuff. And British,

472
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:52,359
you know, Anglican British Protestant theology has it's an own

473
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:57,039
weird series of weirdos in history. And where you have,

474
00:26:58,079 --> 00:27:05,079
on the one hand, Anglo Israeli file ideas which began,

475
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,119
I think of the seventeen hundreds of were certain Anglican

476
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,279
ministers who'd come up with a theory that the lost

477
00:27:10,319 --> 00:27:12,240
tribes of Israel and the Old Testament or somehow the

478
00:27:12,279 --> 00:27:17,519
British people, I mean who knows right, but that contributes,

479
00:27:17,599 --> 00:27:19,880
i think, to some of the.

480
00:27:21,279 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 1: Perhaps ideology of the British Empire.

481
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 4: And you have some of these mythologies that still float

482
00:27:25,279 --> 00:27:29,480
around in the British Empire that the king and the

483
00:27:29,559 --> 00:27:33,079
Queen or descendants of you know, Jesus or Joseph of

484
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:38,519
Arimathea and all this kind of nonsense. So British Israelite

485
00:27:38,559 --> 00:27:41,880
theory is a little bit i think in the background

486
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,119
of this, because of this emphasis on the idea that

487
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,680
somehow the British empires in some way uniquely connected to

488
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,519
the House of David and Jesus. And it's just kind

489
00:27:52,519 --> 00:27:55,200
of weird and made up, but that's there. And then

490
00:27:55,240 --> 00:28:00,640
you get these low church Anglicans study the Bible to

491
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,359
figure out the prophecies for the first time, and lo

492
00:28:03,519 --> 00:28:08,039
and behold you have this really heavy emphasis on Zionism

493
00:28:08,079 --> 00:28:11,480
once again, at the same time as you have this

494
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:17,480
push for Zionism amongst the upper crust, or at least

495
00:28:17,519 --> 00:28:19,960
half of the upper crust of the British Empire. And

496
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,279
I've done a whole lectures on this, because the British

497
00:28:23,319 --> 00:28:28,400
Empire was very split at its top between a lot

498
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:34,160
of the operatives and spies who were Arabi files, people

499
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:39,200
like famous spies like Lawrence, Gertrude Bell, Saint John Philby.

500
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,880
There they were the operatives for the British Empire doing

501
00:28:43,039 --> 00:28:45,240
spy work and espionage work in the Middle East. They

502
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,720
basically carved up the Middle East for the British Empire.

503
00:28:48,119 --> 00:28:51,039
They were all like, they loved Islam and they were like,

504
00:28:51,079 --> 00:28:54,599
you know, obsessed with Arab culture. And then you had

505
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,359
this other faction of the Rothschilds and others who were

506
00:28:57,799 --> 00:28:59,960
very much Zionists. They didn't care so much for Arabs,

507
00:29:00,319 --> 00:29:05,240
and they were pushing for the Balfur Declaration and for

508
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,000
you know, the state of Israel to be set up

509
00:29:07,839 --> 00:29:10,400
under the British Imperial mandate, and that that's of course

510
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,480
what ended up happening, and a lot of those British

511
00:29:13,599 --> 00:29:17,000
Araba file spies warned that it would lead to this

512
00:29:17,319 --> 00:29:22,240
terrible powder Keg situation anyway. So that's the sort of

513
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,640
the geopolitical historical setting. And so I do think there's

514
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:29,279
a good basis to theorize that they did want this

515
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,559
study Bible in the West in America to particularly influence

516
00:29:33,559 --> 00:29:35,839
the minds of the evangelicals, and you know, America is

517
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:40,359
largely a Protestant evangelical country. Probably what number two is Catholic.

518
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,359
I'm not sure exactly the stats, but yeah, I'm sorry,

519
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,200
I feel like I'm rambling really long. You're doing, but yeah,

520
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,480
I think that's the origins. But you know, why would

521
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,160
Oxford University an Anglican right, why would they be so

522
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:57,160
heavily producing?

523
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:58,559
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, you could say, well, they're trying to

524
00:29:58,599 --> 00:29:59,759
make money, but I mean I think.

525
00:29:59,599 --> 00:30:04,599
Speaker 4: There's also so geopolitical soft power influence that's behind them.

526
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,839
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it's when I watch you do debates and Protestants call in,

542
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:24,160
there's a certain It's like, you can argue the original

543
00:31:24,359 --> 00:31:28,559
Protestants stuff with Luther, but this seems to be an

544
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:33,279
entirely different strain of it. Definitely a departure from classical

545
00:31:33,319 --> 00:31:38,359
protestansm right. And I keep wondering, just because this stuff

546
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,240
fascinates me, how did we get from the stuff we

547
00:31:41,279 --> 00:31:45,200
can critique with Luther down to this, because I think

548
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,680
if the early Protestants, as I spoke with Father John Whiteford,

549
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,759
no Christian in the history of the world believed in

550
00:31:52,799 --> 00:31:58,440
dispensationalism or the pre tribulation rapture until John Nelson, Darby

551
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,599
and Schofield started putting stuff out, So even the original

552
00:32:01,599 --> 00:32:04,359
Protestants would have been like, this doesn't make any sense

553
00:32:04,359 --> 00:32:08,000
to me. Is there like some sort of like logical

554
00:32:08,119 --> 00:32:11,039
tie in where that would at some point make sense

555
00:32:11,119 --> 00:32:14,200
to an early Protestant, or is it just completely a

556
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:14,880
new heresy.

557
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 4: My theory is that because of again the sort of

558
00:32:21,039 --> 00:32:27,839
already existing ideology of British Israelite theology in the UK,

559
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:34,200
it was already primed for this return to a Judaizing

560
00:32:34,319 --> 00:32:37,200
heresy amongst a group like this.

561
00:32:38,039 --> 00:32:38,359
Speaker 1: So the.

562
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,759
Speaker 4: More that you move away from tradition, and we could say,

563
00:32:42,839 --> 00:32:47,240
you know, you Orthodoxy from our perspective as the correct tradition,

564
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,599
you've got the schism of the papacy. That's one step removed.

565
00:32:52,279 --> 00:32:54,799
Then you've got the schism from that of the Anglicans.

566
00:32:54,799 --> 00:32:57,680
That's another step removed. And then from the Anglicans you

567
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,680
get this Plumbouth Brethren movement. That's another step removed. So

568
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,359
the further that you sort of step away from tradition,

569
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:08,200
what tends to happen is that you step into some

570
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:13,079
ancient heresy. And I think that obviously just dispensation is

571
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:18,759
a form of Judaizing heresy. It contradicts not just you know,

572
00:33:18,799 --> 00:33:21,680
the Bible, but the Second Ecumenical Council, which teaches that

573
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,960
his Kingdom shall have no end. That phrase excludes all

574
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,960
forms of killism, which is millennialism in the sense of

575
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:34,279
a literal time bound, thousand year reign on Earth. So

576
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,039
it's a return to an already rejected heresy because it's

577
00:33:39,079 --> 00:33:45,279
about five steps removed from Orthodox tradition. And so yeah,

578
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,759
that fourth or fifth step, whatever it is, you know,

579
00:33:49,839 --> 00:33:55,839
that's a step or two from classical Protestants. Right, Classical

580
00:33:55,839 --> 00:33:59,960
Protestanism still understood that, yeah, the Church of Rome had

581
00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:03,640
become corrupted and we need to do this, you know,

582
00:34:03,759 --> 00:34:09,119
revolutionary reform. But that didn't mean that the church, I

583
00:34:09,119 --> 00:34:11,639
mean in their minds. I think Lutheran calvin obviously are wrong,

584
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:13,719
but I'm saying like, in their minds they didn't think

585
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,599
something so radical as that the Church got it all

586
00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:21,960
wrong on eschatology, right, because if dispensationism is true, they

587
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:26,360
did right that nobody understood the pertribulation rapture until then,

588
00:34:27,079 --> 00:34:32,000
then by default the Church got eschatology entirely wrong. And

589
00:34:32,039 --> 00:34:37,119
even Lutheran Calvin although they import this new invisible church heresy, like,

590
00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:40,039
they still understood that there's continuity between the Old and

591
00:34:40,119 --> 00:34:41,639
New Testament in the sense that the Church is a

592
00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:45,400
fulfillment of Israel and the whole premise of dispensationalism is

593
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,880
that the church is not the fulfillment of Israel.

594
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you, and you just led

595
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,400
right into it. This invisible church heresy? Can you speak

596
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:59,719
to that? What I hear? And just for the audience listening,

597
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:05,000
I'm not knocking Protestants personally. My parents are Protestants. I

598
00:35:05,079 --> 00:35:08,280
love them dearly. But uh, and so I'm not casting

599
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,239
a wide judgment, but I hear this thing sort of

600
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,960
we don't need a building, or we don't need to gather.

601
00:35:14,039 --> 00:35:18,760
It even says in Matthew that one or two are

602
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,599
gathered in my name, then I'm there, So we don't

603
00:35:21,639 --> 00:35:24,519
need a building. Does that? Is that what you're getting

604
00:35:24,519 --> 00:35:26,199
at when you say invisible church heresy?

605
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:34,039
Speaker 4: So when Lutheran Calvin, particularly Calvin, when they were reforming

606
00:35:35,079 --> 00:35:37,960
one of the quote, one of the first objections that

607
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,079
would come from the Roman Catholic side would be, you're

608
00:35:42,119 --> 00:35:47,800
splitting the visible institutional structure of the church. Their response

609
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,559
would be that the church is not primarily a visible

610
00:35:51,559 --> 00:35:54,599
institutional structure. There is an element to that which they

611
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,519
which Calvin calls the visible church, but the true church,

612
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:03,760
meaning those who were the true, believing, truly elect Christians

613
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:09,360
were not synonymous with the visible institution, so they might

614
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,719
exist amongst different confessing groups. There might be true believers

615
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:18,320
amongst the Anglicans, the Roman Catholics, the Lutherans, and the Presbyterians,

616
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:23,079
the Calvinists. So that kind of becomes the loosely invisible

617
00:36:23,159 --> 00:36:28,719
church formulated doctrine of the Classical Reformation. I mean, I

618
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,159
don't think Luther uses that terminology, but he probably has

619
00:36:32,199 --> 00:36:35,559
the same loose idea going on, because he would probably

620
00:36:35,559 --> 00:36:40,079
say that, yeah, there's true believers amongst the Roman sect,

621
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:44,840
amongst the Presbyterians and Lutherans. The Lutherans are the best,

622
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:46,760
you know. That's probably what Luther's take would have been.

623
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,119
But Calvin is more specifically the guy who formulates this

624
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,079
idea of the visible invisible church distinction, and he does

625
00:36:53,119 --> 00:36:56,159
it on the basis of the Augustinian teaching of the

626
00:36:56,239 --> 00:37:00,960
elect amongst the church area where first with Augustine though,

627
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,800
is it Augustine had that position though, but Augustine thought

628
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,199
that the only the only elect people were amongst the

629
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:12,880
visible Catholic Church. So Augustin didn't didn't say that the

630
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,639
elect were spread amongst the sects, right, he wouldn't have

631
00:37:15,679 --> 00:37:19,800
said that the Novationists, the Donuts, as the Aryans whoever, like,

632
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:21,960
they didn't have the elect amongst them. It's only the

633
00:37:22,079 --> 00:37:25,320
visible Catholic Church that's made up of wheed and tear.

634
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,039
And then after Calvin you get.

635
00:37:31,159 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 1: Sort of more specific.

636
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,159
Speaker 4: Well, I guess I should just say, you get the

637
00:37:39,159 --> 00:37:42,159
next phase the Reformation, known as the Radical Reformation. This

638
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,199
is where we get Anabaptists, is where we get hutter rights,

639
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:46,480
the Amish, the men and night.

640
00:37:46,559 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 1: They all come in out of the Radical Reformation.

641
00:37:48,599 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 4: So their position is even more radical that they don't

642
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:56,639
necessarily believe in a visible invisible distinction. They may, but

643
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,679
their position is rather that the church was in a blackout.

644
00:38:00,079 --> 00:38:02,920
You have a blackout from the apostasy, after the apostles

645
00:38:03,639 --> 00:38:07,519
until it cure a radical reformer. So you see how

646
00:38:07,519 --> 00:38:12,960
it's like phases of institutional rejection. Yes, and the final

647
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,159
institutional rejection comes with the Anabaptist saying that there was

648
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:17,639
no institutional church.

649
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,199
Speaker 1: The church is not even an institution. There's a blackout.

650
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 4: That's way beyond Calvin, who thinks that, yeah, there's, you know,

651
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,440
an institutional church, which he calls the visible church, but

652
00:38:28,639 --> 00:38:31,119
the true believers are the true Church, and that's the

653
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:36,760
invisible elect amongst Catholics, Orthodox Lutherans, et cetera.

654
00:38:39,079 --> 00:38:42,599
Speaker 1: Part of what this has done, this this long lineage

655
00:38:42,639 --> 00:38:47,880
of starting to reject the church is create atheists or

656
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:52,039
these spiritual not religious types that say, well, I don't

657
00:38:52,039 --> 00:38:55,199
believe an organized religion. When I've been met with that,

658
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,199
when someone says, what, what did you get into you

659
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,400
were an atheist Orthodoxy, Well, I mean that's cool. I

660
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:05,159
just don't believe an organized religion. And it's like I

661
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,760
have a hard time kind of trying to explain, Well,

662
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:15,280
it's not what you're thinking. It's not another sect of Christianity,

663
00:39:15,519 --> 00:39:19,679
it's the original Church. How do you respond to this

664
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,239
kind of pushback, Well, I'm not into organized religion.

665
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,800
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, first of all, it would be absurd

666
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,639
in the entire history of the Bible from Genesis to

667
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:36,119
the New Testament, because God organized his religion from the

668
00:39:36,159 --> 00:39:38,360
time of Abraham, where it's said that Abraham built an

669
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:42,840
altar and called upon God. That's an organized religious structure

670
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,719
up until the Mosaic Law, where Israel has a temple

671
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,639
and you know, an arc of the Covenant where you

672
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,760
come to worship God at the temple with organized liturgical

673
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,000
psalms that David wrote called David psalms. Those are all

674
00:39:56,039 --> 00:39:59,960
liturgical ordered worship service prayers, and so those are organ

675
00:40:00,039 --> 00:40:04,119
organized religious events. And then it would make no sense,

676
00:40:04,159 --> 00:40:07,400
I don't think for Jesus to come unless you just

677
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:09,159
sort of have this idea that Jesus is like this

678
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:13,639
hippie hippie reformer or something which a lot of Protestants.

679
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:14,079
Speaker 1: Yeah.

680
00:40:15,559 --> 00:40:19,320
Speaker 4: No, Jesus established an organized structure of the College of

681
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,599
the Apostles. He sent the Holy Spirit upon them at

682
00:40:23,639 --> 00:40:26,559
Pentecost and Acts two, they have an Acts fifteen an

683
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:31,440
organized religious council called the Jerusalem Council Jerusalem. And then

684
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,159
after that you have in the post Apostolic Church fathers

685
00:40:34,159 --> 00:40:38,039
in their writings, the organized structure of the successors to

686
00:40:38,079 --> 00:40:40,519
the Apostle Apostles, the bishops, the Episcopate.

687
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:42,119
Speaker 1: And then we see.

688
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 4: Even prior to Anicea right like Gangra in Cairo, we

689
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:52,039
see councils, synods, local councils and synods that meet again

690
00:40:52,079 --> 00:40:55,360
displaying the same organized religious structure. And the church has

691
00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:00,000
organized religious eucharistic meetings where they sacrifice of the euchars

692
00:41:00,119 --> 00:41:04,199
is offered. Do you read the entire chapter of Hebrews thirteen.

693
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,280
Paul describes the Eucharist in that chapter as an offering

694
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,400
at an altar that we eat from. It's contrasted to

695
00:41:13,599 --> 00:41:16,280
the altar that the Jews had of the temple.

696
00:41:17,559 --> 00:41:19,760
Speaker 1: Where they eat.

697
00:41:19,079 --> 00:41:23,159
Speaker 4: The you know, sacrifice of the animals, whereas we eat

698
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,599
and feed on the defying flesh of the god Man.

699
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 1: So uh, that's why it needs to be.

700
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 4: It has to be and has always been, an organized

701
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,760
structures simply that's what Jesus set up. And we see

702
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:38,119
that throughout, you know, the first thousand years of the Church,

703
00:41:39,159 --> 00:41:41,679
and even after the splits up excuse me, the skit

704
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,920
the skit, the split and skis them between the East

705
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,320
and the West. I mean, it's not like the Church

706
00:41:47,559 --> 00:41:50,880
wasn't institutional even in the West, it was still an institution.

707
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,599
It was still organized religion. I mean, I think we

708
00:41:53,639 --> 00:41:56,519
think the papacy obviously was very corrupt and went in

709
00:41:56,519 --> 00:42:01,199
the wrong direction, but it wasn't you know, disorganized or

710
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,880
I mean, what's what's the other option to be as

711
00:42:05,039 --> 00:42:05,960
organized religion?

712
00:42:06,199 --> 00:42:11,199
Speaker 1: Like right, I get the pushback if they're because if

713
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,880
you don't know what orthodoxy is and and to you,

714
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:20,360
Christianity is John Hagey, George Bush and the Neo con Party.

715
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,880
And it's like, well, yeah, I'm against that that too.

716
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,280
I there's a my spiritual father who you know as

717
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:30,280
Father Turbo. Uh. We're we were in we both are

718
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,760
into punk rock. And I said one time, should I

719
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,280
is it weird that I wear an Agnostic Front T

720
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,119
shirt the punk band? Should I stop wearing that? I

721
00:42:38,119 --> 00:42:41,639
don't want people to think I'm agnostic? And he said, well,

722
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,679
Agnostic Front is against the same sort of Christianity that

723
00:42:46,119 --> 00:42:50,039
we're against. So no, I get that, and so I

724
00:42:50,119 --> 00:42:53,599
understand the pushback. Well, I'm if you look at you know,

725
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,079
Joel Ostein or something like that, it's like, well, I'm

726
00:42:56,119 --> 00:42:59,800
against quote unquote organized religion if that's what it is.

727
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:01,800
And I think that is what it is to a

728
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:08,159
lot of people, unfortunately, right, which almost makes it seem subversive. Yeah, yeah,

729
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:12,519
bing go I want to get I want to ask

730
00:43:12,559 --> 00:43:15,360
you your journey. I hate that word, but it is

731
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:19,119
what it is. Your journey through the faith is very common,

732
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,360
and I think that's what is part of what's appealing

733
00:43:22,559 --> 00:43:25,679
about your content is that you're able to explain and

734
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:29,639
push back on certain heresies that you live through. So

735
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:33,360
you went from Protestantism to Catholicism, which I think is

736
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,559
a very natural way to go. I didn't realize until

737
00:43:36,599 --> 00:43:39,280
recently kind of the pushback I would hear as a

738
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,559
Protestant against Catholics. I would hear it all the time,

739
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,320
and it's like, now you look back at well, that's

740
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,440
the roots of Protestantism is pushing back against the Catholic Church.

741
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:52,119
But it's now common for people, certainly in this new

742
00:43:52,159 --> 00:43:54,960
sort of right word swing that the society has taken,

743
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:57,199
and we're in more of a spiritual age I think

744
00:43:57,199 --> 00:44:02,519
than we used to be. While Protestantism like reductionist Catholicism.

745
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:06,719
Let me go into Catholicism because that's the tradition, and

746
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:08,599
so I assume that's kind of is that how you

747
00:44:08,639 --> 00:44:09,440
did it? Basically?

748
00:44:10,639 --> 00:44:12,079
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a great quote I whant to re hear

749
00:44:12,079 --> 00:44:14,719
in a second from Saint Justin Papovitch on this topic

750
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:20,079
that somebody sent me today. But personally, I mean keep

751
00:44:20,079 --> 00:44:22,000
in mind that this was back in two thousand and three,

752
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,480
so there were not a lot, like the online resources

753
00:44:26,519 --> 00:44:30,199
were very limited when it comes to this type of material.

754
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,719
It's way different now, you know what I mean, Like

755
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:36,199
twenty two years later, there's like a million Orthodox sites,

756
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:41,880
content creators, YouTube channels, blogs, bookstores, book reforence. I mean,

757
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:43,960
it was not like this in two thousand and three.

758
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,480
In two thousand and three, it was basically if you

759
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:51,599
got online, you would be in Yahoo Chat debating Protestant

760
00:44:51,639 --> 00:44:54,000
Catholic right. And I remember I got a hold of

761
00:44:54,039 --> 00:44:57,519
a tape because Bonson was kind of my you know hero,

762
00:44:57,599 --> 00:45:01,400
I was going to Bonson's seminary. I wanted to get,

763
00:45:01,519 --> 00:45:06,320
you know, really immersed in the whole reconstructionist Calvinist domain.

764
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,639
And I us to a debate between Jerry matt Six,

765
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:13,960
who at that time had left Calvinism for Catholicism. And

766
00:45:14,079 --> 00:45:16,440
I listened to their debate probably ten times. I was

767
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,679
just obsessed with the Bonds and Matatics debate, and they

768
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:24,159
debated soul, scriptura and the Marian doctrines. And this was

769
00:45:24,199 --> 00:45:27,039
because there was there was this early phase back then

770
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:32,280
of Calvinists who were getting more into church history and

771
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,519
the first the first phase of that was Scott Hand

772
00:45:35,559 --> 00:45:39,360
and Mattatics and they were friends and they went to

773
00:45:39,519 --> 00:45:41,800
Rome Catholicism, and so a lot of people in the

774
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,000
Calvinist world were kind of shocked, like, how could you

775
00:45:44,079 --> 00:45:50,480
go from Calvinists to Roman catholic And so they kind

776
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,199
of kicked it off back then in the late nineties

777
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:57,440
early two thousands, and that debate really got me questioning

778
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:03,400
the whole Calvinist ethos. And then I remember it kind

779
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:05,519
of provoked me to get the Church Fathers set.

780
00:46:05,559 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 1: I was gonna have to read the Church Fathers.

781
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 4: I was going to have to get into the history

782
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:10,960
of the canon and how did that really play out?

783
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: And I'm sorry your question was just your kind of

784
00:46:18,559 --> 00:46:21,760
move into Catholicism, because it's an I'm seeing it. We're

785
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:23,960
seeing it now with the trad caath stuff online and

786
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,559
they're arguing with you. And all the time, I know

787
00:46:26,599 --> 00:46:28,920
about Orthodoxy, right, So this is again in two thousand.

788
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:30,599
Speaker 4: I mean, i'd heard of an Orthodox Church, and I

789
00:46:30,679 --> 00:46:34,760
think I got very early on Timothy Ware's book Orthodox Church,

790
00:46:35,039 --> 00:46:36,719
and I read like the first few chapters of it,

791
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,079
and I was like, I mean, I don't know, there's

792
00:46:39,079 --> 00:46:41,239
no Orthodox Church around me. So I didn't think much

793
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,559
about it, and I immersed myself in the East West

794
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,039
or the Protestant Catholic debate. I remember getting I started

795
00:46:48,079 --> 00:46:51,519
reading obviously the Church Latin Church Fathers, and for me

796
00:46:51,639 --> 00:46:54,880
as a as a Calvinist, I mean kind of your

797
00:46:55,679 --> 00:46:58,880
go to for the Church Fathers is Augustine. Yes, So

798
00:46:59,119 --> 00:47:01,920
I read a lot of Augustine. I was at Bible College,

799
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,320
and I remember I read almost the entire City of

800
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,480
God when everybody was away at Christmas break. I didn't

801
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:10,360
go home for Christmas Break, so I was there for

802
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,840
two weeks at Bible College alone, so I had nothing

803
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:14,760
else to do, so I just read the City of

804
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,280
God the whole time I was there for that two weeks,

805
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:21,440
and I noticed that there's all these things that didn't

806
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:24,840
match up with what we as Calvinists, thought he believed.

807
00:47:25,519 --> 00:47:29,000
And then when I left that Bible College, I got

808
00:47:29,039 --> 00:47:30,599
the Church Father's set. I was like, I'm gonna have

809
00:47:30,639 --> 00:47:33,800
to launch into I'm have to read against the Donatus,

810
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:38,840
against the Manichaeans, I'm have to read against our against Pallagians.

811
00:47:39,199 --> 00:47:43,320
So I started just reading vast amounts of Augustine. And

812
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:44,920
I was fortunate enough to have a job where I

813
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,159
could read all day, So that's another way I was

814
00:47:47,159 --> 00:47:50,280
able to do that. Anyway, long story short, I just

815
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:57,280
came up with no remaining defenses for Protestantism, and so

816
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,039
I became a Catholic in two thousand and three. I

817
00:47:59,079 --> 00:48:03,000
took the name Augustine, by the way, and you know,

818
00:48:03,079 --> 00:48:05,800
I was at first, I was okay.

819
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:06,159
Speaker 1: In that world.

820
00:48:06,199 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 4: But then I was immediately kind of hit with a

821
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:12,480
lot of challenges and problems in Roman Catholic doctrine because

822
00:48:12,559 --> 00:48:16,039
my interest into Catholicism was through Augustine and Church fathers.

823
00:48:16,599 --> 00:48:19,519
And I think when people who'd leave Protestantism for Catholicism,

824
00:48:19,559 --> 00:48:21,599
they expect that they're going to have or find a

825
00:48:21,599 --> 00:48:25,719
Patristic church. And it's not that it's very bizarre when

826
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,239
you go to the Catholic Church and then the novasort

827
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:32,000
of Mass is like, you know, hip hop mass, you

828
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:38,400
know guitar mass, you know Karen's are handing out the Eucharist.

829
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:42,320
It's very bizarre. So now you're presented with a whole

830
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:46,039
new series of challenges which you weren't really prepared or

831
00:48:46,079 --> 00:48:49,559
didn't know how to answer, given the fact that your

832
00:48:50,039 --> 00:48:54,159
focus was Protestant versus Catholic stuff. Right, So then I

833
00:48:54,199 --> 00:48:57,119
had to go into the whole you know, Vatican two,

834
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:00,440
Vatican one, people and cyclicals this all this, So I

835
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:02,360
ended up being a trad cat and going to the

836
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,400
Latin mass for about eight years. So I was in

837
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,599
the SSPX, went to their masts for many years, and

838
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:12,639
you know, took it very seriously, was committed tradcat. But

839
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:15,119
there was a very natural I think, as people have

840
00:49:15,199 --> 00:49:17,639
pointed out, like it's very easy to go from Calvinism

841
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:23,280
to like Tomism because they're they're both very just scholastic

842
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:27,239
intellect focus, and so what you miss is like repentance

843
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:30,280
and healing and a lot of the stuff that Orthodoxy

844
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:34,159
stresses over against that intellectual approach. But anyway, long story short,

845
00:49:34,159 --> 00:49:39,880
it was that just that there just wasn't really any

846
00:49:40,039 --> 00:49:43,880
idea that Orthodoxy was even in the discussion. There wasn't

847
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:47,719
an Orthodox seat at the table back in online debates

848
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:50,000
in two thousand and three, four or five. That took

849
00:49:50,119 --> 00:49:53,000
around more like two thousand and seven, eight, nine, ten,

850
00:49:53,079 --> 00:49:59,199
when you started getting more attention to Orthodox blogs. You know,

851
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:03,599
Energety PERSP Perry's blog kind of kicked off a lot

852
00:50:03,599 --> 00:50:07,360
of this with people thinking well, maybe there's a challenge

853
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:12,360
to both Protestantism and Catholicism. And then you know, after

854
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,440
that you started getting more and more people kind of

855
00:50:15,599 --> 00:50:16,679
looking at these questions.

856
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:21,360
Speaker 1: Once a month, my supporters of this show and myself

857
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,800
and a special guest have a zoom meeting. It's not recorded,

858
00:50:25,079 --> 00:50:28,559
it's not posted, it's just private. It's between you guys,

859
00:50:28,599 --> 00:50:31,440
the guest, and myself. I do this because it means

860
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:33,679
a lot for you guys who support me by showing

861
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:35,960
me that this show means a lot to you. I

862
00:50:36,079 --> 00:50:38,360
love talking with you. I look at it as like

863
00:50:38,639 --> 00:50:40,880
a benefit for people that support the show, but it's

864
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:42,400
really a benefit for me. I get to know you

865
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,679
guys and have an off the record discussion with our guest,

866
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,480
and you know, sometimes topics you don't want to necessarily

867
00:50:48,519 --> 00:50:51,559
have all the ins and outs discussed online, if you

868
00:50:51,599 --> 00:50:53,679
know what I mean. So to be in this group,

869
00:50:54,039 --> 00:50:58,719
please go to patreon dot com slash counterflow and donate

870
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,320
five dollars or more per month and it gets you

871
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:03,360
in this club. We do it once a month. It's

872
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:05,800
a great time. It's great people. They're all smarter than me,

873
00:51:06,159 --> 00:51:08,079
so that's an upgrade from what you're used to. I

874
00:51:08,079 --> 00:51:10,239
can tell you that the guests are always guests that

875
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:12,039
people want to hear from a lot of you guys

876
00:51:12,079 --> 00:51:14,440
won't be familiar with many of the guests. Father Turbo

877
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:16,760
has done it, Father Deacon and Anaias has done it.

878
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:20,280
David Patrick Carey's done it, my own priest, Father Ignatius

879
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,199
has done it. Father Moses McPherson's done it. It's a

880
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:25,920
very good time and I think you guys would enjoy it.

881
00:51:26,199 --> 00:51:30,239
If you love this content, please go to patriot dot

882
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:34,480
com slash counterflow five dollars or more per month. Thank you.

883
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:42,960
Is that what led you, basically to the Orthodox Church?

884
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:45,599
You started questioning things and all of a sudden, now

885
00:51:45,679 --> 00:51:48,880
you can find some more content out there, and it's like,

886
00:51:49,039 --> 00:51:51,960
wait a second, where has this been? Well?

887
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:56,079
Speaker 4: It was a longer route for me because in two

888
00:51:56,119 --> 00:51:58,320
thousand and seven or eight when I was I was

889
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:02,119
having really hard struggle with traditional Catholicism because it felt

890
00:52:02,119 --> 00:52:05,559
like it was getting to being a dead end because

891
00:52:06,519 --> 00:52:09,000
the papacy wasn't getting any better. It didn't look like

892
00:52:09,039 --> 00:52:12,840
there was any way out of the dilemmas of the

893
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:14,280
direction that Rome was going.

894
00:52:14,599 --> 00:52:18,679
Speaker 1: What they had dogmatized the Vatican two, and there was

895
00:52:18,679 --> 00:52:20,800
a real quick You speak on this all the time,

896
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:24,480
and it's a huge point what they dogmatized at Vatican two.

897
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,519
Touch on that really quick so people understand the issue there.

898
00:52:30,119 --> 00:52:31,239
I mean, there's quite a bit.

899
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:33,360
Speaker 4: I mean, Vatican two is a vast you know, it's

900
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:36,199
like seven hundred pages of documents, but I mean to

901
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,559
make it very clear, like I would argue very clear

902
00:52:39,599 --> 00:52:43,679
contradictions on things like the place of the Roman bishop

903
00:52:43,679 --> 00:52:49,360
in terms of its temporal power. Religious liberty is now

904
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:54,639
lauded and praised, when previously it was condemned. The relationship

905
00:52:54,639 --> 00:52:59,079
of the Church to Jews Muslims that Pagans has changed,

906
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:02,960
sort of talking limited M sixteen That one, I.

907
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 1: Mean, and you can keep going.

908
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:09,320
Speaker 4: There's many many more oddities in the documents of Avatican two,

909
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:13,559
but those are the main ones that really stick out. Acumenism,

910
00:53:13,639 --> 00:53:16,679
interfaith gatherings, those were condemned as late as nineteen twenty eight,

911
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:19,159
So how could they be the work of the Holy Spirit, like,

912
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:22,440
you know, two decades later. It just doesn't make any

913
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:27,599
sense three decades later. So you know, that was all

914
00:53:28,599 --> 00:53:34,760
something I was struggling with, and the Latin mass community

915
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,800
that was a part of was kind of falling apart.

916
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:43,639
There's a lot of splits and problems there at the SSPX.

917
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 1: And so.

918
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:50,679
Speaker 4: I remember arguing with a couple people on Perry's blog

919
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:54,400
on their day procession and long, long, long comment arguments.

920
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:58,400
And I'd never seen Tonism challenged. I never even thought

921
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:02,239
about there being a challenge tu tumism. And so I

922
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,639
encountered the Essen Center distinction for the first time in

923
00:54:04,679 --> 00:54:07,679
two thousand and seven. A I didn't really know what

924
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:10,159
to make of it at that time, and as as

925
00:54:10,199 --> 00:54:12,719
I usually do when I'm encountering something new or I'm

926
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:15,360
challenged with something new, what I do is I go

927
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:18,159
buy all the books on it. So I remember buying

928
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:20,119
Phil Cherard's books.

929
00:54:20,159 --> 00:54:21,239
Speaker 1: I remember buying.

930
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:28,840
Speaker 4: Loski's Mysical Theology Eastern Church. I bought some other Losky books,

931
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:33,960
my Endorfed books. So I just started buying Orthodox books

932
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:35,960
and being like, Okay, I'm gonna have to understand this stuff.

933
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:38,159
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to figure it out, and if.

934
00:54:38,119 --> 00:54:39,760
Speaker 4: I'm going to refute it, I'm gonna have to, you know,

935
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:41,599
like you know, get to the bottom of it. And

936
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:43,920
you know, the more that I read about it, the

937
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:47,199
more I saw well, actually I never even got into

938
00:54:47,199 --> 00:54:51,519
the Eastern Fathers, you know, when I was debating Catholic

939
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:55,599
versus Orthodox I mean Protestant. I was just reading Jerome

940
00:54:55,679 --> 00:55:00,719
and Ambrose and Augustine in gra Great, you know, I

941
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:03,079
was just reading these Latin saints and ever even it

942
00:55:03,119 --> 00:55:05,079
just didn't even occur to me, because I think what

943
00:55:05,119 --> 00:55:07,679
happens with a lot of people who go from Protestant

944
00:55:07,679 --> 00:55:10,920
the Catholic is you just kind of assume that, oh, well,

945
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,960
all that stuff that they're debating in the first thousand years,

946
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:17,400
like Trinity and aristology, oh that's all settled.

947
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:21,039
Speaker 1: You just kind of assume that by default it was settled.

948
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:24,079
Speaker 4: And that's why I think the papacy stuff is a

949
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:28,400
really it's kind of a deflection, because what ends up

950
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:30,800
happening is that Roman Catholics just want to they're all

951
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:34,159
just basically papal lawyers. They just want to defend the papacy,

952
00:55:35,079 --> 00:55:39,679
and they don't really care about what constantinople One teaches,

953
00:55:40,039 --> 00:55:44,559
or Serials teaching on the energies, or Maximus is teaching

954
00:55:44,599 --> 00:55:47,079
on the energies. None of that really even matters, because

955
00:55:47,119 --> 00:55:49,440
in their mindset, it's just sort of a well, if

956
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,039
Protestantism is false, then it's by default you got to

957
00:55:52,119 --> 00:55:54,159
just be with the papacy because there's no other way

958
00:55:54,199 --> 00:55:57,280
to have doctrinal certitude and unity and all this kind

959
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:00,239
of stuff. But in the Roman Catholic Church itself, like

960
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:05,280
the promises that are offered with what the papac he's

961
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:07,960
going to bring, it's not there. I mean, I saw

962
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:11,800
tremendous division. I mean, and I would argue that nowadays

963
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:14,400
it's the Romancality Church is even more divided than it was,

964
00:56:15,679 --> 00:56:17,159
you know in two thousand and five when I was

965
00:56:17,159 --> 00:56:21,599
a tradcat, so i'd be given Francis's kind of next

966
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:23,760
level revolution that he's engaged in.

967
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:26,159
Speaker 1: So you know, it's a combination of things.

968
00:56:26,159 --> 00:56:30,559
Speaker 4: It was a combination of Orthodox websites popping up being

969
00:56:30,639 --> 00:56:32,440
challenged with essence, center distinction stuff.

970
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,119
Speaker 1: I've never encountered Tomism being challenged.

971
00:56:35,159 --> 00:56:37,920
Speaker 4: I've never seen it really challenged or encountered it in

972
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:41,119
that way, beginning to read the Eastern trich Fathers.

973
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:48,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a whole host of things. Well have

974
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:52,639
you learned yourself through these debates that you do? Have

975
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:55,480
you grown at all? And I don't mean that like

976
00:56:56,079 --> 00:56:58,960
obviously we all grow through things, but has it helped

977
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:03,000
you doing these debates. It's when with with Muslims, trad

978
00:57:03,079 --> 00:57:04,159
cats and things like that.

979
00:57:08,519 --> 00:57:12,920
Speaker 4: Well, hopefully it's helping me to cultivate certain virtues which

980
00:57:13,119 --> 00:57:16,639
we have to patience, right, Yeah, I mean I do

981
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:21,159
still at times lose patients because you know, if you

982
00:57:21,239 --> 00:57:24,639
have four or five six hour open discussions, you're gonna

983
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:27,960
you're not going to be perfect in maintaining perfect patients.

984
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:34,280
So I'm sure that has helped some. I don't think,

985
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:39,760
like in terms of theological challenges or intellectual challenges in

986
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:42,199
the sense of like arguments that I haven't heard, right,

987
00:57:42,559 --> 00:57:45,280
very rarely does there is there a new argument or

988
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:48,800
maybe one maybe once every year there's some person that

989
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:51,840
pops on it has like a new take or a

990
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:54,960
new argument, but usually that's from something that I'm not

991
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:58,239
that familiar with, right, So, like, I've only looked into

992
00:57:58,239 --> 00:58:01,679
the Islamic stuff for the past six years. So every

993
00:58:01,719 --> 00:58:05,039
now and then somebody who's way more studied or knowledgeable

994
00:58:05,159 --> 00:58:07,360
about that topic will bring up a question. I don't

995
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:09,400
think any of the Muslims have actually ever won a

996
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:11,599
debate on the topic. But right, you might get a

997
00:58:11,679 --> 00:58:14,599
Muslim who says, oh, but what about you know it?

998
00:58:14,719 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 1: Ben?

999
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:17,599
Speaker 4: Whoever's viewed right, Well, yeah, I may not have read it,

1000
00:58:17,639 --> 00:58:21,119
Ben whoever? Right, so right, Yeah, you'll get some some

1001
00:58:21,159 --> 00:58:24,920
stuff like that. In terms of like learning you said

1002
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:27,760
you said doesn't help. I mean I might learn new things,

1003
00:58:28,239 --> 00:58:36,000
might maybe help could debate patience, But for me personally, no,

1004
00:58:36,079 --> 00:58:37,840
I don't, And I don't really know that debate does

1005
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:38,400
a whole lot.

1006
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:41,440
Speaker 1: It's just sort of like, well it helps us, I

1007
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:44,280
would say, and I can speak just from my own perspective,

1008
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:47,119
it helps me. One of the things I've noticed is

1009
00:58:47,159 --> 00:58:49,079
that a lot of the people that call into you

1010
00:58:49,119 --> 00:58:56,159
to passionately debate Rotestantism or Judaism or Islam, they don't

1011
00:58:56,239 --> 00:58:59,719
quite get their own faith. They don't know much about

1012
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:02,599
their faith because it's very within a minute, you can

1013
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:04,280
poke a hole in it. And then they go to

1014
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:07,239
ad hominem attacks or but this, and they kind of

1015
00:59:07,719 --> 00:59:10,440
sidestep what you just ask them, or they respond with

1016
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:14,760
asking you a question and just speaking for myself, that

1017
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:19,159
helps me kind of go. It makes me start questioning things.

1018
00:59:19,199 --> 00:59:22,519
And these I feel like there's a wall that someone

1019
00:59:22,639 --> 00:59:25,000
hits and they go, well, I'm just Catholic or I'm

1020
00:59:25,039 --> 00:59:27,199
just Protestant, and they hang up or something. Is that

1021
00:59:27,599 --> 00:59:31,000
pretty much your take? Yeah.

1022
00:59:31,039 --> 00:59:33,880
Speaker 4: I think one thing that you probably are aware of

1023
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:37,559
and probably everybody has some sense of, is that a

1024
00:59:37,559 --> 00:59:40,639
lot of times the debate format is just kind of

1025
00:59:40,719 --> 00:59:45,480
like the assumption is that the opponent will probably be

1026
00:59:45,519 --> 00:59:48,840
bringing their strongest objections, and so it's a form of

1027
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:51,440
Q and A that the audience gets to hear, you know,

1028
00:59:51,679 --> 00:59:55,480
what's your best objections against orthodoxy from the opponent, or

1029
00:59:56,440 --> 00:59:58,800
what's your best arguments for atheism or something like that.

1030
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:02,400
So I think it's in interesting, entertaining form of Q

1031
01:00:02,559 --> 01:00:09,000
and A that the audience usually likes. But you know,

1032
01:00:09,039 --> 01:00:11,719
because we're all falling human beings, none of us likes

1033
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:16,519
to be wrong, right, Nobody likes to have their worldview challenged,

1034
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:19,079
And so we know that, you know, most of the

1035
01:00:19,079 --> 01:00:21,400
time a person is not going to just immediately convert

1036
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:21,920
on the spot.

1037
01:00:22,199 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 1: Right.

1038
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 4: For all of us, myself included, a lot of these

1039
01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:30,440
things took a long time. They took years of working

1040
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:33,800
through issues. And so if you know, one debate exchange

1041
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:36,400
might just plant the seed of doubt, right. And I

1042
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:38,239
think one of the one of the elders or saints

1043
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:42,920
says something like we should try to cultivate an unease

1044
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:46,280
and a doubt in those who are not Orthodox. So

1045
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:48,440
that's one of the things that the debates can do,

1046
01:00:49,079 --> 01:00:50,960
is that they can help to plant the seeds of

1047
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:54,239
a healthy doubt where a person begins to think, well,

1048
01:00:54,239 --> 01:00:57,480
maybe maybe Protestantism isn't you know, the ultimate answer.

1049
01:00:57,519 --> 01:00:59,760
Speaker 1: Maybe? And like myself right.

1050
01:00:59,679 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 4: When I I when I was a Protestant, and I

1051
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:05,199
remember hopping in some chat rooms in like two thousand

1052
01:01:05,239 --> 01:01:10,320
and two, and I was arguing with Roman Catholics, and

1053
01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:14,679
I remember assuming that, you know, well, Augustine was a Calvinist.

1054
01:01:15,679 --> 01:01:18,360
And then I would see the Roman Catholics, you know, quoting,

1055
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:24,559
spamming quoting me, Augustine talking about the Eucharist, about relics,

1056
01:01:24,719 --> 01:01:28,760
you know, about the episcopate, and I'd be like, I

1057
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:30,280
thought he was a Calvinist, you know what I mean.

1058
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:32,519
So it's like it planted a healthy doubt in me.

1059
01:01:32,559 --> 01:01:35,719
And then by two thousand and seven eight I remember

1060
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:40,800
reading there was about a twenty page debate in the

1061
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:46,599
Comments of Energetic Procession about Tomism and divine simplicity and

1062
01:01:46,599 --> 01:01:50,039
the energies. And it was like Perry and Alvin Kimmel

1063
01:01:50,119 --> 01:01:54,000
before he became a weird universalist priest whatever he is

1064
01:01:55,239 --> 01:01:59,239
and a couple other people and it was just like

1065
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:02,039
going back and forth the comments for like twenty pages

1066
01:02:02,079 --> 01:02:05,119
of comments. And I remember that was very decisive for

1067
01:02:05,159 --> 01:02:06,440
me because it was the first time I read like

1068
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:11,119
an extensive critique of Tomism that pretty much I think

1069
01:02:11,199 --> 01:02:16,400
collapsed Tomism for me. But it wasn't immediate, right, And

1070
01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:19,079
it's like it's not like overnight, you just it's like

1071
01:02:19,159 --> 01:02:21,599
you have this Wow, that's a big you know, that's

1072
01:02:21,599 --> 01:02:23,840
a pretty significant challenge. I'm going to have to, you know,

1073
01:02:25,039 --> 01:02:26,800
go read did Basil really say this?

1074
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:27,079
Speaker 1: Right?

1075
01:02:27,119 --> 01:02:29,519
Speaker 4: Does he really say the energies come down to us,

1076
01:02:29,599 --> 01:02:30,559
we don't know the essence?

1077
01:02:30,639 --> 01:02:34,199
Speaker 1: You know? Does Cyril really talk about the essence in distinction?

1078
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:36,039
Does you know? So you kind of have to go

1079
01:02:36,079 --> 01:02:37,960
and process more and more.

1080
01:02:38,039 --> 01:02:40,920
Speaker 4: And at the same time, right, I was seeing just

1081
01:02:41,079 --> 01:02:46,239
Rome dude, just worse and worse and worse stuff. And yeah,

1082
01:02:46,239 --> 01:02:49,320
so it's I think with people as well as myself,

1083
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:54,639
you kind of have these jarring situations that shake your worldview.

1084
01:02:54,719 --> 01:02:57,119
And what's Jordan Peterson always say. It says like when

1085
01:02:57,119 --> 01:02:58,679
you have this kind of situations like.

1086
01:02:59,599 --> 01:03:02,679
Speaker 1: You don't and you come back, you know, second little death,

1087
01:03:02,719 --> 01:03:03,000
you know.

1088
01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:06,159
Speaker 4: It is it's like a little death if your paradigm

1089
01:03:06,199 --> 01:03:08,800
gets you know, shook, and so you gotta take time

1090
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:09,639
to process.

1091
01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:12,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, did you when you were a Protestant or maybe

1092
01:03:12,639 --> 01:03:16,039
even since then, did you ever dive into hal Lindsay? Yeah?

1093
01:03:16,079 --> 01:03:16,320
I did.

1094
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:18,440
Speaker 4: I was a huge Hell Lindsay fan right around the

1095
01:03:18,519 --> 01:03:21,719
time of like when I had the John Hagy prophecy

1096
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:25,199
studied Bible, I thought, like all those TV prophecy guys

1097
01:03:25,199 --> 01:03:28,719
were spot on. I remember I actually bought a VHS

1098
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:33,239
of How Lindsay giving lectures. The Bible College I was

1099
01:03:33,239 --> 01:03:36,320
at at that time, they had like a whole library

1100
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:38,840
where you could like check out. This is before I

1101
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:40,559
was a calumnist, right, they had a library you could

1102
01:03:40,639 --> 01:03:45,679
check out like, you know, how Lindsey VHS tapes.

1103
01:03:45,559 --> 01:03:49,000
Speaker 1: And Jack Van Impey.

1104
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:52,400
Speaker 4: I used to watch his TV show and I was

1105
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:54,159
always impressed because he was like really he would he

1106
01:03:54,159 --> 01:03:57,599
would memorize scriptures, you know, he had this like encyclopedic

1107
01:03:57,639 --> 01:04:00,519
recall scriptures, which, by the way, shows that just because

1108
01:04:00,519 --> 01:04:02,920
you have an encyclopedic memory of scripture doesn't mean that

1109
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:05,320
you that you're like you could still be a crazy

1110
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:14,039
you know, lenitic. Yeah, so yes, I read Late Great

1111
01:04:14,039 --> 01:04:17,199
Planet Earth. I read it seemed like he had some

1112
01:04:17,239 --> 01:04:20,599
other book about the rapture in nineteen eighty eight, which

1113
01:04:20,599 --> 01:04:22,159
I think was a kind of a debacle for him.

1114
01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:23,960
Speaker 1: If I'm going for a memory here, I don't. It

1115
01:04:24,039 --> 01:04:28,280
was like, this is like twenty plus years ago.

1116
01:04:28,639 --> 01:04:31,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, but he has somehow calculated some nonsense about yes,

1117
01:04:32,679 --> 01:04:34,079
nineteen eighty eight yep.

1118
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:38,159
Speaker 1: And then I started like that.

1119
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:41,559
Speaker 4: That's when I started thinking, all right, this is this

1120
01:04:41,639 --> 01:04:43,239
doesn't seem right, you know what I mean, Like this

1121
01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:47,199
seems like a scam or they're just idiots, I don't

1122
01:04:47,239 --> 01:04:47,480
know what.

1123
01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:51,280
Speaker 1: But yeah, I did have a Hall Lindsey phase maybe

1124
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:52,920
for about a year. Wow. I thought he was a

1125
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:56,199
really good guy, I think, and I think you agree

1126
01:04:56,199 --> 01:04:57,679
with this. I've heard you. I think I've heard you

1127
01:04:57,719 --> 01:04:59,840
say it. The Baby Boomer generation, as much as we

1128
01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:04,920
can a knock on them, they were subjected to more

1129
01:05:04,960 --> 01:05:10,440
propaganda than any generation that I'm aware of, including my

1130
01:05:10,559 --> 01:05:13,480
generation Gen Z, which either's propaganda everywhere now it's the

1131
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:17,760
age of information and disinformation, if you will. But I

1132
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:22,519
try to go easy sometimes because my goodness, like it

1133
01:05:22,559 --> 01:05:28,960
was just syop after syop after syop. Do you think

1134
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:32,920
John Nelson, Darby and Schofield were just another step of

1135
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:36,760
these syops that was the Baby Boomers were subjected to.

1136
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:43,719
Speaker 4: Uh yeah, I mean probably a lot of the people

1137
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:48,719
in America were not aware of it being obviously a syop.

1138
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:52,519
But I mean you do have at a time that

1139
01:05:52,519 --> 01:05:56,000
the boomers were beginning to grow up more and more

1140
01:05:56,039 --> 01:06:02,400
of a shift in US policy towards pro Israel pro Zionism.

1141
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:06,480
Speaker 1: Now that you know, posts nineteen forty seven, and.

1142
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:14,400
Speaker 4: You know, probably after you know, Sixth State War, American

1143
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:16,920
attitudes that shifted. I mean, I don't think they were

1144
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:19,960
necessarily anti Israel, but post World War Two and then

1145
01:06:20,119 --> 01:06:23,119
post nineteen forty eight and then post Six Day War,

1146
01:06:24,800 --> 01:06:33,639
more and more pro Israel attitude, combined with the religious

1147
01:06:36,159 --> 01:06:38,480
trying to think of the work right word. I mean,

1148
01:06:38,519 --> 01:06:40,480
I think soft power is just probably the best term

1149
01:06:40,559 --> 01:06:43,239
to use. The there's a real push and an emphasis

1150
01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:50,800
on things like well, we've got to support the only democratic.

1151
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:53,760
Speaker 1: Ally in Yes, I've heard that was the line.

1152
01:06:54,039 --> 01:06:56,079
Speaker 4: I don't even know where the where that came from,

1153
01:06:56,119 --> 01:06:58,480
but probably out of the Cold War. Right, So, there

1154
01:06:58,519 --> 01:07:02,159
was a period when Stalin was trying to court Israel,

1155
01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:04,880
and Israel ended up siding with the West and not

1156
01:07:05,039 --> 01:07:09,559
with Stalin, and so probably out of that birth this

1157
01:07:09,719 --> 01:07:14,400
idea that we needed to have this you know, capitalists

1158
01:07:14,559 --> 01:07:21,000
ish democratic alliance out of the Middle East, which from

1159
01:07:21,039 --> 01:07:24,320
a geostrategic standpoint, if you're Britain in the US and

1160
01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:26,719
you're running an empire, makes it makes sense why you

1161
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:27,280
want that.

1162
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:29,239
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm not saying.

1163
01:07:29,079 --> 01:07:32,840
Speaker 4: It's necessarily morally right or the right position or whatever,

1164
01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:35,760
but that's the logic of it. So I think Boomer's

1165
01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:39,199
just sort of defaulted to Cold War acceptance of a

1166
01:07:39,440 --> 01:07:42,280
non communist Ish country in the Middle East because at

1167
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:46,000
the same time, the other countries that were the older

1168
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:50,840
CIA plan, which was pro Arab nationalism pan Arabism, they

1169
01:07:51,000 --> 01:07:54,320
shifted away from that because they felt like it the

1170
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:58,159
nationalizing that the Arab secular states were doing would make

1171
01:07:58,199 --> 01:08:03,320
them amenable to Soviet influence. So they were concerned of

1172
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:12,559
you know, Nasar being pro Soviet. Most of that pro Soviet.

1173
01:08:12,519 --> 01:08:12,840
Speaker 1: Jordan.

1174
01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:14,920
Speaker 4: I don't think they were worried about Jordan being pro

1175
01:08:15,039 --> 01:08:17,640
Soviet because they pretty much had I mean, this is

1176
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:21,319
public Time magazine. They've CIA's paid the hash of my

1177
01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:23,800
kings since the Cold War paym.

1178
01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:26,039
Speaker 1: A million dollars a year, or they used to.

1179
01:08:27,359 --> 01:08:30,960
Speaker 4: And then Lebanon. I don't think Lebanon was ever really

1180
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:35,560
a threat to the West. They even talked about how

1181
01:08:36,279 --> 01:08:39,359
really they would just sort of there's a term, I

1182
01:08:39,399 --> 01:08:41,279
forget the name of the term, but basically you just

1183
01:08:41,319 --> 01:08:45,439
sort of keep the keep Lebanon divided up by a

1184
01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:50,840
bunch of like organized crime, tribal tribal divisions, and Lebanon

1185
01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:54,920
would never really be a problem. And also the CIA

1186
01:08:54,920 --> 01:08:59,000
and the Masade funded and armed the Phalangists, who are

1187
01:08:59,079 --> 01:09:03,479
largely married Night Catholics, so they made an alliance with

1188
01:09:03,479 --> 01:09:06,239
the Maynight Catholics, and then that would kind of keep

1189
01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:12,520
Lebanon in this sort of divided state such that Lebanon

1190
01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:14,960
could never be a real threat to Israel, even though

1191
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:19,399
at times Hosible I would you know, launch rockets or whatever.

1192
01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:26,680
Speaker 1: Does that make sense? Yeah? Yeah, do you think the.

1193
01:09:28,159 --> 01:09:31,399
Speaker 4: Oh and also the PLO, which we're stabilizing for us,

1194
01:09:31,399 --> 01:09:33,520
there was always a concern that the PLO would be aligned,

1195
01:09:33,640 --> 01:09:34,760
you know, Soviet wise.

1196
01:09:36,239 --> 01:09:42,319
Speaker 1: Do you think this schofield dispensationalist form of Protestantism is

1197
01:09:42,439 --> 01:09:45,479
dying out with what I would call the age of information,

1198
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:49,479
the Internet age, and it's everything's out there available for

1199
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:53,079
you to research your on your own. Does it feel

1200
01:09:53,119 --> 01:09:56,520
like it's slowly dying out? Yes and no.

1201
01:09:56,640 --> 01:09:58,880
Speaker 4: The problem is, you know, you've got a lot of

1202
01:09:58,960 --> 01:10:05,039
people who are low information voter's, very low information people

1203
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:13,600
that will probably always default to thinking that, you know,

1204
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:16,680
the Bible is zionist or whatever. Like I think a

1205
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:18,359
lot of people who are new to the Bible or

1206
01:10:18,359 --> 01:10:20,720
who are new converts, you know, they kind of go

1207
01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:21,479
through that phase.

1208
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:23,600
Speaker 1: I went through that when I was eighteen nineteen.

1209
01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:26,680
Speaker 4: I think you know a post a profit who's now,

1210
01:10:26,960 --> 01:10:29,640
you know, moving towards orthodoxy, I think he still has

1211
01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:32,520
that a lot of the hangover and he thinks that,

1212
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:36,960
you know, the Bible zionist or whatever. So, you know,

1213
01:10:37,039 --> 01:10:39,479
people will probably still continue to have that phase as

1214
01:10:39,520 --> 01:10:43,319
long as you know, there's still a lot of propaganda

1215
01:10:43,399 --> 01:10:45,840
and push for that kind of stuff in the various

1216
01:10:46,159 --> 01:10:50,319
Christian evangelical sects and groups. But I do think that

1217
01:10:50,399 --> 01:10:55,159
there's a significant challenge to all these kinds of positions

1218
01:10:55,319 --> 01:10:59,439
via the Internet now, which could possibly speak to the

1219
01:10:59,479 --> 01:11:00,600
demise of that position.

1220
01:11:01,039 --> 01:11:05,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. In closing, here, I would just want to ask you.

1221
01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:12,039
A lot of people come to the church through hearing

1222
01:11:12,880 --> 01:11:16,279
your show. I've heard it numerous times people i'm close with.

1223
01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:21,439
What would you say could be some challenges to people

1224
01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:24,800
coming to Orthodoxy, not just through your show or my

1225
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:30,560
show or any show, but challenges you see young Orthodox

1226
01:11:30,640 --> 01:11:35,800
people maybe encountering and not handling well, or getting confused by,

1227
01:11:36,199 --> 01:11:40,079
or maybe getting distraught by and wanting to leave the church.

1228
01:11:41,279 --> 01:11:42,119
That's a great question.

1229
01:11:42,199 --> 01:11:45,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think people should be prepared for new sets

1230
01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:48,000
of challenges, because you know, it's not like when you're

1231
01:11:48,039 --> 01:11:50,439
into the Orthodox Church. Oh you know, it's honeymoon and

1232
01:11:50,439 --> 01:11:52,720
all the challenges go away. You might rob be a

1233
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:54,560
honeymoon period, but you're going to have a new set

1234
01:11:54,600 --> 01:12:00,439
of challenges. I'm not saying that it's unbearable. I would

1235
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:04,520
never go back to Rome or Protestantism like that. That's

1236
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:06,560
I would never. It's never even crossed my mind to

1237
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:07,279
go back to those.

1238
01:12:09,239 --> 01:12:09,399
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1239
01:12:09,439 --> 01:12:11,199
Speaker 4: I think some of the dangers would be that, you know,

1240
01:12:12,079 --> 01:12:14,960
people who watch a lot of debates in my channel,

1241
01:12:15,119 --> 01:12:20,199
they might think that Orthodoxy is this debate for them,

1242
01:12:20,279 --> 01:12:22,199
and so maybe when they go to the Orthodox Church,

1243
01:12:22,279 --> 01:12:25,359
they realize what's you know, this is a liturgy, it's

1244
01:12:25,399 --> 01:12:28,560
not really about eight And I always stress and tell

1245
01:12:28,560 --> 01:12:31,359
people like, debate is just a sign post, right, It's

1246
01:12:31,359 --> 01:12:33,319
just a thing that points you in the direction. It's

1247
01:12:33,359 --> 01:12:36,479
not the thing itself. It's a it's an indicator, it's

1248
01:12:36,279 --> 01:12:42,359
a it's a sign. It's a direction sign. And that's

1249
01:12:42,399 --> 01:12:42,920
about it.

1250
01:12:43,119 --> 01:12:44,880
Speaker 1: You know. It really can't do much more than that.

1251
01:12:46,039 --> 01:12:46,920
So it's a tool.

1252
01:12:47,039 --> 01:12:49,680
Speaker 4: It's useful, but a lot of times perhaps people might

1253
01:12:49,760 --> 01:12:53,359
mistake the tool for the religion itself or the thing itself.

1254
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:57,880
If you're a new convert, it takes a long time

1255
01:12:57,960 --> 01:13:01,720
to process theology.

1256
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:04,760
Speaker 1: And to let it soak in you and kind of

1257
01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:06,560
work out of you.

1258
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:10,760
Speaker 4: The baggage, and everybody has a baggage, So it doesn't

1259
01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:15,199
matter whether you were Roman, Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, whatever. Now

1260
01:13:15,319 --> 01:13:21,600
some positions, maybe even atheists, have less baggage, but everybody's

1261
01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:25,039
going to come with baggage, and so it's not wise

1262
01:13:25,239 --> 01:13:29,680
to assume that, Well, I really love theology, I really

1263
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:33,520
love debating. I'm a catecuman. It's I'm ready to get

1264
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:36,600
out there in the forum and debate. You know, the

1265
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:41,520
traditional approach is one to three years of catechisis and

1266
01:13:41,600 --> 01:13:46,640
you don't publicly talk on these topics. And in my

1267
01:13:46,680 --> 01:13:48,680
own situation, I would say, back in two thousand and

1268
01:13:48,680 --> 01:13:50,479
seven and eight, when I went through the Catechumen and

1269
01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:54,960
also almost became Orthodox, I didn't because I wasn't ready to,

1270
01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:58,720
because I still I was still super Tomas super, you know,

1271
01:13:58,840 --> 01:14:02,199
like a lot of Worthox stuff didn't make sense to me,

1272
01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:06,840
and I wasn't ready to convert. So it's actually good.

1273
01:14:07,079 --> 01:14:08,760
I know this may sound a little weird, but it's

1274
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:11,720
actually good that I didn't become orthodox to those because

1275
01:14:11,720 --> 01:14:14,159
I wasn't ready for it yet. Yes, and I needed

1276
01:14:14,199 --> 01:14:19,039
another ten years of processing and kind of filtering out

1277
01:14:19,119 --> 01:14:19,600
a lot of this.

1278
01:14:22,359 --> 01:14:25,439
Speaker 1: I don't even know what you would call it fixations.

1279
01:14:25,479 --> 01:14:27,960
Speaker 4: I guess of like because I used to have this

1280
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:30,800
attitude in my twenties, like if there's not a perfect

1281
01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:32,920
answer to this question, I can't do it, you know

1282
01:14:32,960 --> 01:14:34,640
what I mean. And then I think as you get older,

1283
01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:36,600
you kind of chill out a little bit. You realize

1284
01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:38,840
like there's not going to be a perfect answer to

1285
01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:41,399
any question. I mean, there are answers, but you're never

1286
01:14:41,479 --> 01:14:45,960
going to get like the perfect, you know, systematic answer

1287
01:14:46,000 --> 01:14:49,520
to every question. So I would say, also, you know

1288
01:14:49,560 --> 01:14:52,279
you're gonna be when you come to the Orthodox scharch

1289
01:14:52,279 --> 01:14:55,840
You're gonna be forced to work on yourself. You're not

1290
01:14:56,000 --> 01:14:59,199
gonna be yes, You're going to be thinking, I'm going

1291
01:14:59,279 --> 01:15:00,319
to fix everybody else.

1292
01:15:00,359 --> 01:15:02,399
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell somebody else what they need to do.

1293
01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:04,600
Speaker 4: And the first thing that's going to happen is you're

1294
01:15:04,600 --> 01:15:08,159
going to be challenged with fixing you, and that's going

1295
01:15:08,239 --> 01:15:12,920
to be difficult, and you're going to realize that you're

1296
01:15:12,960 --> 01:15:14,920
going to be working on you the rest of your life.

1297
01:15:15,119 --> 01:15:16,119
Speaker 1: Like you're not done.

1298
01:15:17,399 --> 01:15:20,760
Speaker 4: You know, after your Catechumen period, you really just begin

1299
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:25,359
to realize, oh, I actually have these major vices that

1300
01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:27,079
I'm going to be working on for the rest of

1301
01:15:27,119 --> 01:15:30,520
my life. So I've got to work on my pride,

1302
01:15:30,640 --> 01:15:34,600
my arrogance, my anger, and my dirty thoughts. That's my

1303
01:15:34,880 --> 01:15:38,960
that's my vices. There you go, So that's the rest

1304
01:15:39,000 --> 01:15:41,760
of my life is working on that stuff. Right, And

1305
01:15:43,239 --> 01:15:46,159
so there's a great humbling that hopefully will occur, by

1306
01:15:46,159 --> 01:15:49,119
God's grace if you enter the Orthodox Church and realize

1307
01:15:49,239 --> 01:15:51,159
what you're going to work on, and.

1308
01:15:53,520 --> 01:15:54,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I would say.

1309
01:15:54,520 --> 01:15:56,520
Speaker 4: I would say, that's and you got to find a

1310
01:15:56,560 --> 01:16:01,199
spiritual father, and you know, outside of that, you just

1311
01:16:01,199 --> 01:16:05,520
don't even realize how big of a change and how

1312
01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:08,199
much that stuff matters once you're in the Orthodox Church,

1313
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:09,239
and how different.

1314
01:16:09,239 --> 01:16:10,920
Speaker 1: It's very different, is what I'm trying to say.

1315
01:16:11,079 --> 01:16:17,600
Speaker 4: My experiences in Rome and Protestantism are way different from Wordloks.

1316
01:16:18,760 --> 01:16:23,920
Speaker 1: Give us in closing here, something that you find what's

1317
01:16:23,920 --> 01:16:26,560
one of the most fun things you do or something

1318
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:29,920
that you just because everyone sees you online and debating

1319
01:16:30,000 --> 01:16:35,600
and giving stuff on esoteric Hollywood and whatnot out of

1320
01:16:35,640 --> 01:16:40,119
that scene. What's something you do for fun? Actually, the

1321
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:43,560
most fun I have is doing the comedy stuff. I

1322
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:44,560
enjoy that the most.

1323
01:16:45,319 --> 01:16:49,119
Speaker 4: So, you know, I'm really thankful to that Sam Hyde

1324
01:16:49,119 --> 01:16:51,159
has hired me to write for him. So we've been

1325
01:16:51,199 --> 01:16:54,159
writing on the first I've been writing on the first

1326
01:16:54,199 --> 01:16:58,239
five episodes of his show, The Sam Hide Show, And

1327
01:16:58,960 --> 01:17:01,319
that's something I really want to do for many years,

1328
01:17:02,119 --> 01:17:04,399
and so I'm really thankful and appreciative for him giving

1329
01:17:04,399 --> 01:17:07,600
me that opportunity. He had me on his podcast last year.

1330
01:17:08,319 --> 01:17:10,680
We had a really good time, and you know, he

1331
01:17:10,920 --> 01:17:13,479
I think he vibes with what I think is funny,

1332
01:17:13,479 --> 01:17:17,239
what he thinks is funny. So and I'm not the

1333
01:17:17,239 --> 01:17:19,479
only writer. There's a couple other guys involved too, But

1334
01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:21,920
it's just that's the most fun I have.

1335
01:17:22,039 --> 01:17:26,039
Speaker 1: In fact, for me, that's more fun than debate. I mean,

1336
01:17:26,039 --> 01:17:27,199
debating is not that fun.

1337
01:17:27,319 --> 01:17:29,039
Speaker 4: Every now and then it can produce kind of a

1338
01:17:29,079 --> 01:17:32,600
funny clip or whatever, and I see that it's fruitful

1339
01:17:32,640 --> 01:17:35,640
and people benefit from it. I don't enjoy it that much.

1340
01:17:35,760 --> 01:17:39,279
It gets old, but I feel like, Okay, if I

1341
01:17:39,279 --> 01:17:41,560
if I have to, you know, step up and debate

1342
01:17:41,560 --> 01:17:44,199
a Muslim, I'll do it. If I have to, you know,

1343
01:17:44,199 --> 01:17:46,680
if nobody else will step up and you know, debate

1344
01:17:46,720 --> 01:17:49,960
this Cathola guy or whatever, I'll do it. We haven't

1345
01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:51,880
had a formal debate in a long time, though, which

1346
01:17:51,920 --> 01:17:56,119
is odd. So that's not that much fun. But yeah,

1347
01:17:56,439 --> 01:17:59,279
you know, doing comedic stuff is fun. I love doing impressions.

1348
01:17:59,319 --> 01:18:01,720
I love make couldeople laugh. That's that's the most fun

1349
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:01,960
for me.

1350
01:18:02,720 --> 01:18:08,840
Speaker 1: Who's your favorite impression to do? At the moment, I

1351
01:18:08,920 --> 01:18:09,720
worked on my Trump.

1352
01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:10,920
Speaker 4: By the way, the Trump had in a minute, it

1353
01:18:10,920 --> 01:18:13,239
goes really bad, but I think I've got my Trump

1354
01:18:13,279 --> 01:18:13,800
pretty good.

1355
01:18:14,720 --> 01:18:17,880
Speaker 1: And you know, Nick Age is always a classic. He's

1356
01:18:17,880 --> 01:18:18,319
fun to do.

1357
01:18:20,239 --> 01:18:22,920
Speaker 4: I like doing Bryce and Gray recently because he's kind

1358
01:18:22,920 --> 01:18:24,000
of been such a goober.

1359
01:18:24,439 --> 01:18:33,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, a favorite favorite. We already got a Jordan. You

1360
01:18:33,359 --> 01:18:35,279
can't do Jordan Pearson as good as Jim Bob.

1361
01:18:35,359 --> 01:18:38,159
Speaker 4: Jim Jim Bob does a perfect Jordan Peterson, and a

1362
01:18:38,199 --> 01:18:42,840
perfect Ben Shapiro and a perfect Tucker. I get the

1363
01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:45,600
Tucker to laugh, but I can't do anything else. And

1364
01:18:45,880 --> 01:18:47,680
but I've got some other people that I can do

1365
01:18:47,720 --> 01:18:49,920
pretty good. So I just did this Douglas Murray guy,

1366
01:18:49,960 --> 01:18:55,439
that the guy that they so yeah, did you? I?

1367
01:18:55,439 --> 01:18:57,800
Speaker 1: I saw you breaking down some of that as you

1368
01:18:57,960 --> 01:18:59,359
listened to it the other day. Have you seen the

1369
01:18:59,399 --> 01:19:01,119
whole debate yet? Now?

1370
01:19:01,119 --> 01:19:03,840
Speaker 4: I was thinking about trying to do the whole debate.

1371
01:19:04,399 --> 01:19:07,159
That would be a long stream, but that seems to

1372
01:19:07,199 --> 01:19:10,920
be the most recent, biggest debate you know out there.

1373
01:19:11,479 --> 01:19:12,600
It's probably worth doing.

1374
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:19,079
Speaker 1: It's Douglas Murray in my view, I honestly wasn't very

1375
01:19:19,079 --> 01:19:23,439
familiar with him prior to that debate. I actually thought

1376
01:19:23,600 --> 01:19:25,560
I was getting him confused with I think it's Charles

1377
01:19:25,640 --> 01:19:30,039
Murray who wrote on some more controversial topics, and I

1378
01:19:30,119 --> 01:19:32,439
was like, surely this is that guy. He seems like

1379
01:19:32,479 --> 01:19:37,960
a fool, but his whole stick seems boomery in a way.

1380
01:19:38,000 --> 01:19:43,479
It's sort of this slipping away of the boomer legacy

1381
01:19:43,600 --> 01:19:46,840
media that's that's dying out. It's like, you can't talk

1382
01:19:46,920 --> 01:19:49,079
about this if you're not a journalist, or you're not

1383
01:19:49,279 --> 01:19:53,720
have some sort of special certification, or you're not this anymore. Yeah,

1384
01:19:53,720 --> 01:19:57,760
it's like, dude, that's done with. I don't know where

1385
01:19:57,760 --> 01:20:00,560
you're coming from, but it just seems like that's slip away,

1386
01:20:00,800 --> 01:20:03,640
and he's trying to, like, as he's falling down the waterfall,

1387
01:20:03,720 --> 01:20:06,800
grasp at a twig or something to like stay irrelevant.

1388
01:20:07,199 --> 01:20:09,520
Then of course, the next day, like Trump tweets out

1389
01:20:09,520 --> 01:20:12,279
his book and it's like, dude, this is We're done

1390
01:20:12,279 --> 01:20:15,439
with this stuff. But it's still it's still kind of

1391
01:20:15,479 --> 01:20:19,079
bubbling up at some At certain points, I find it

1392
01:20:19,119 --> 01:20:24,359
interesting that he's critiquing Dave Smith, who you know, is

1393
01:20:24,399 --> 01:20:26,800
a friend of mine, so I maybe I'm biased, but

1394
01:20:27,439 --> 01:20:31,039
he's critiquing him on not being an expert on Middle

1395
01:20:31,079 --> 01:20:33,920
East policy or a historian, or Darryl Cooper not being

1396
01:20:33,920 --> 01:20:36,800
a historian it's like, but he's not one either. He's

1397
01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:40,840
got an English degree, so the whole thing was odd.

1398
01:20:41,560 --> 01:20:44,199
I say that I'd love to see your I would

1399
01:20:44,239 --> 01:20:47,039
watch a full stream. If you critique it along the way.

1400
01:20:47,079 --> 01:20:49,239
Speaker 4: Then I can get away with it to plan the

1401
01:20:49,239 --> 01:20:52,239
whole thing. But yeah, I think that you hit on

1402
01:20:52,279 --> 01:20:55,800
a key issue there. With all the legacy boomer era stuff.

1403
01:20:56,319 --> 01:20:59,239
We're in the phase right now where that's all going away. Yes,

1404
01:20:59,800 --> 01:21:02,079
and in the next five to ten years, nobody's gonna

1405
01:21:02,079 --> 01:21:06,000
care about any of that. There will still be legacy institutions,

1406
01:21:06,039 --> 01:21:10,239
there will still be universities and government, but more and

1407
01:21:10,319 --> 01:21:17,520
more people don't care about that. Legacy journalism, even legacy education,

1408
01:21:17,640 --> 01:21:21,119
I think will matters unless people don't. They're gonna not

1409
01:21:21,279 --> 01:21:23,319
care about paying one to two hundred thousand dollars to

1410
01:21:23,359 --> 01:21:25,359
get a piece of paper where they prove that they

1411
01:21:25,399 --> 01:21:28,239
were brainwashed, right, and that like a bunch of weird

1412
01:21:28,439 --> 01:21:31,359
cree professors give them permission to talk about a subject.

1413
01:21:31,399 --> 01:21:34,520
Nobody cares about that that's done. In fact, I've been

1414
01:21:34,560 --> 01:21:36,279
saying for ten years that was going to go away.

1415
01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:42,199
Legacy money is going away. There's new money, there's new media,

1416
01:21:42,479 --> 01:21:46,039
there's I mean, all that stuff is changing, and when

1417
01:21:46,079 --> 01:21:48,920
you have these sort of paradigm shifts. This is one

1418
01:21:48,960 --> 01:21:54,880
of the points of structures of scientific revolutions that when

1419
01:21:54,920 --> 01:22:01,000
there's a big paradigm shift, the existing structure tooth and nail,

1420
01:22:01,840 --> 01:22:07,960
even when they're losing to maintain the status quo and

1421
01:22:08,640 --> 01:22:12,119
they've already lost the narrative, whether it's the topics that

1422
01:22:12,800 --> 01:22:16,159
they've Smith was debating or whatever. Like, he made a

1423
01:22:16,560 --> 01:22:20,159
very perceptive point there, Like Douglas Murray's whole thing was

1424
01:22:20,279 --> 01:22:23,600
just you know, o lean on a jen It's like,

1425
01:22:23,720 --> 01:22:26,720
I kind honestly see how if you've not been that,

1426
01:22:27,359 --> 01:22:29,039
you know, It's like, well, but when he went there,

1427
01:22:29,079 --> 01:22:33,119
it was like this organized trip by the IDF so

1428
01:22:33,239 --> 01:22:35,199
that he could you know, I'm sure they control what

1429
01:22:35,279 --> 01:22:36,159
he saw, you know what I mean.

1430
01:22:36,159 --> 01:22:38,640
Speaker 1: It's like, why are we supposed to listen to you? Dude?

1431
01:22:38,680 --> 01:22:40,880
You have English theory right, Like, you don't even match

1432
01:22:41,039 --> 01:22:42,279
the criteria that you're setting.

1433
01:22:42,399 --> 01:22:45,119
Speaker 4: So basically, no one could ever talk on a subject

1434
01:22:45,199 --> 01:22:47,840
unless they have what a PhD in the subject right,

1435
01:22:47,880 --> 01:22:50,199
And what does that mean? Can a PhD be wrong? Well,

1436
01:22:50,199 --> 01:22:52,279
if a PhD can be wrong, then that's just appeal

1437
01:22:52,319 --> 01:22:55,279
to authority fallacy. So yes, yeah, people don't care about this.

1438
01:22:55,359 --> 01:22:58,600
And also, you know, the degrees don't matter as much anymore.

1439
01:22:59,079 --> 01:23:03,479
People are not convinced by peel to authority or.

1440
01:23:05,119 --> 01:23:05,279
Speaker 1: You know.

1441
01:23:05,319 --> 01:23:07,319
Speaker 4: It's quickly talked about this in Tragy and Hope he

1442
01:23:07,399 --> 01:23:10,399
said that the society that the technographs want to set

1443
01:23:10,479 --> 01:23:12,680
up is one where there's rule by experts.

1444
01:23:12,920 --> 01:23:13,800
Speaker 1: Yes, so.

1445
01:23:15,800 --> 01:23:20,199
Speaker 4: If you don't respect or accept the establishment experts, then.

1446
01:23:20,520 --> 01:23:25,439
Speaker 1: It's not gonna work. Yep, one more question quickly, I'll

1447
01:23:25,479 --> 01:23:27,560
get you out of here. People ask me this. I

1448
01:23:27,720 --> 01:23:30,039
know they ask you this, and they're they're going to

1449
01:23:30,119 --> 01:23:32,279
critique me if I don't ask you this. Give a

1450
01:23:32,359 --> 01:23:37,199
book or two that you would recommend to someone inquiring

1451
01:23:37,399 --> 01:23:38,680
into Orthodoxy.

1452
01:23:41,760 --> 01:23:45,640
Speaker 4: I usually try to tailor the recommendations based on what

1453
01:23:45,800 --> 01:23:47,640
background they're coming out of. So if they're coming out

1454
01:23:47,680 --> 01:23:51,640
of a Protestant background, you know, i'd say read you know,

1455
01:23:52,279 --> 01:23:56,960
Doctor Clark Carlton is a three party series directed Protestants, Catholics, yes,

1456
01:23:57,159 --> 01:24:00,920
and non believers, And so I would say a one

1457
01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:06,600
of those Doctor Carlton's book. If they're coming from a

1458
01:24:06,680 --> 01:24:10,079
Roman Catholic background, I would say they might need to

1459
01:24:10,119 --> 01:24:14,159
read something that's very accessible, like Michael Welton's book Two Paths,

1460
01:24:14,880 --> 01:24:17,479
which is a really good basic critique of the papacy.

1461
01:24:22,399 --> 01:24:22,840
Speaker 1: If they.

1462
01:24:24,680 --> 01:24:27,279
Speaker 4: Want more strict theology, I would say read something like

1463
01:24:27,439 --> 01:24:29,479
my endorsed book The Orthodox Church or.

1464
01:24:31,960 --> 01:24:34,600
Speaker 1: Mystical Theology the Eastern Church by Lasky. Those would be

1465
01:24:34,640 --> 01:24:38,600
my recommendations. Awesome, uh plug anything you'd like.

1466
01:24:38,720 --> 01:24:45,359
Speaker 4: Now, Yeah, if you like edgy comedy, you know it's

1467
01:24:45,399 --> 01:24:48,079
a little R rated, so I'll warn you you can

1468
01:24:48,119 --> 01:24:51,319
go check out. The episode four of sam Hid Show

1469
01:24:51,439 --> 01:24:53,239
was the last one that came out, and in fact,

1470
01:24:53,760 --> 01:24:55,800
in that one we covered uh boomers.

1471
01:24:56,520 --> 01:24:58,920
Speaker 1: Yeah it's not just boomers, but.

1472
01:25:02,079 --> 01:25:06,640
Speaker 4: Recent sort of you know, Internet scams and scandals. I

1473
01:25:06,720 --> 01:25:10,479
think we talked about Hawktua Crypto. I'm trying to remember.

1474
01:25:10,600 --> 01:25:12,319
I can't remember if that was episode three or four,

1475
01:25:12,479 --> 01:25:15,319
but you know, the first one we talked about you know,

1476
01:25:16,000 --> 01:25:19,279
H one B Visus scandal and Elon and Vivac and

1477
01:25:19,640 --> 01:25:21,560
so that was the first couple episodes.

1478
01:25:21,159 --> 01:25:24,279
Speaker 1: And then then we got a new one coming out

1479
01:25:24,319 --> 01:25:25,680
about the Gate program.

1480
01:25:25,760 --> 01:25:27,960
Speaker 4: I don't know if you know about Gifted and Talented education,

1481
01:25:28,199 --> 01:25:30,840
but that's kind of kind of been a hot topic

1482
01:25:31,000 --> 01:25:33,960
due to people on TikTok and other platforms kind of

1483
01:25:34,359 --> 01:25:37,119
wondering and questioning like what this program was all about,

1484
01:25:37,279 --> 01:25:40,079
and so that'll be I think the next episode of

1485
01:25:40,079 --> 01:25:44,000
sam Hi covers that. In part we talked about Eastern

1486
01:25:44,319 --> 01:25:46,199
philosophy and religions Hagakure.

1487
01:25:46,399 --> 01:25:48,720
Speaker 1: That was something that he covered in the last episode

1488
01:25:48,920 --> 01:25:50,000
or the third episode.

1489
01:25:50,560 --> 01:25:53,079
Speaker 4: So you can go check out those episodes if you

1490
01:25:53,199 --> 01:25:56,800
like edgy comedy and kind of riffing on the spot with.

1491
01:25:58,439 --> 01:26:03,279
Speaker 1: Topical subject matter political soub big manor what else. I

1492
01:26:03,319 --> 01:26:05,119
start Callably with three. You can get the pre orders

1493
01:26:05,159 --> 01:26:06,319
at my website right now.

1494
01:26:06,439 --> 01:26:09,439
Speaker 4: Again, remember that it won't be out until July, so

1495
01:26:09,600 --> 01:26:11,399
this is just kind of getting your pre orders in

1496
01:26:11,560 --> 01:26:13,239
so that we can get it too as quick as possible.

1497
01:26:13,279 --> 01:26:16,800
For signed copies, if you order it from Bezos, I

1498
01:26:16,880 --> 01:26:18,880
don't really benefit from that. There's you don't get a

1499
01:26:18,920 --> 01:26:22,640
signed copy. So yeah, so check out start Callaly with

1500
01:26:22,760 --> 01:26:24,800
three and then you can follow me at my website. Also,

1501
01:26:24,840 --> 01:26:29,199
I'll be live in Tallahassee in a week, so I

1502
01:26:29,199 --> 01:26:30,880
don't know when this goes up, but if you go

1503
01:26:30,960 --> 01:26:32,920
to my Twitter you can see or I'll be live

1504
01:26:32,960 --> 01:26:36,119
Intel Hasse Flora doing a talk with a kind of

1505
01:26:36,159 --> 01:26:39,279
a conservative political minded group that is inviting me to

1506
01:26:39,319 --> 01:26:40,039
come speak.

1507
01:26:39,800 --> 01:26:42,319
Speaker 1: So I'll be talking to them. You can get tickets

1508
01:26:42,359 --> 01:26:43,359
on my wall.

1509
01:26:45,159 --> 01:26:47,399
Speaker 4: And then we'll be doing a whole bunch of podcasts

1510
01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:50,239
out in LA and Vegas, pretty big ones in the

1511
01:26:50,319 --> 01:26:53,039
next month, so you can look for all that. In Vegas,

1512
01:26:54,560 --> 01:26:56,239
I'll be doing the Hodge Twins and then we'll go

1513
01:26:56,319 --> 01:26:59,199
to LA and I'll do Ruslan. So that's going to

1514
01:26:59,239 --> 01:27:03,159
be an interesting conversation with Ruslan fall here was on

1515
01:27:03,319 --> 01:27:04,640
Ruslan's channel.

1516
01:27:05,079 --> 01:27:10,119
Speaker 1: Yes that guy. Okay, yeah, Rouslan's channel or soh uh.

1517
01:27:10,680 --> 01:27:13,000
Speaker 4: I think Jamie Kennedy and are going to do another podcast.

1518
01:27:13,159 --> 01:27:15,399
I'll do the Whatever podcast. So we're supposed to have

1519
01:27:15,439 --> 01:27:18,479
a debate. Me and Jim Bob are going to debate

1520
01:27:19,199 --> 01:27:24,119
a feminist on the Whatever podcast. That will be entertaining

1521
01:27:24,359 --> 01:27:26,680
and that I'll be doing Triple Ley's podcast too.

1522
01:27:26,720 --> 01:27:30,279
Speaker 1: So awesome. Now, on Jay Dyer, thanks for being here, sir,

1523
01:27:30,439 --> 01:27:32,359
going to talk with you. That was a great conversation,

1524
01:27:33,439 --> 01:27:36,239
all right. I hope you guys thoroughly enjoyed the discussion

1525
01:27:36,479 --> 01:27:39,399
with Jay Dyer. I hope you have a great bright week,

1526
01:27:39,960 --> 01:27:42,119
and I would give you some hints on who's dropping

1527
01:27:42,239 --> 01:27:44,439
next week, but I'm still lining that up. I've got

1528
01:27:44,439 --> 01:27:47,159
a few options here trying to get that scheduled. I

1529
01:27:47,239 --> 01:27:49,720
am in the process of getting the Zoom the Patreon

1530
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:52,840
group zoom chat scheduled with a priest that has been

1531
01:27:52,920 --> 01:27:56,159
on here this year. There's your hint. I was waiting

1532
01:27:56,279 --> 01:27:58,640
till after Pasca, as you know, that's their busy season.

1533
01:27:59,159 --> 01:28:02,000
So we're going to get that squared away here fairly quickly.

1534
01:28:02,239 --> 01:28:04,399
Thank you guys that are in that group at Patreon

1535
01:28:04,520 --> 01:28:08,359
dot com slash Counterflow, follow me on x Twitter at

1536
01:28:08,520 --> 01:28:10,600
buck Rebel b U c k R E b e L.

1537
01:28:10,920 --> 01:28:13,600
Jump in our Telegram group. It's always going strong in there,

1538
01:28:14,159 --> 01:28:17,079
and subscribe to the YouTube page, will you. That way

1539
01:28:17,359 --> 01:28:20,760
you're notified when these episodes drop, when they premiere all

1540
01:28:20,880 --> 01:28:23,880
that stuff. So until next week, you guys, have a

1541
01:28:23,920 --> 01:28:42,479
good one. Se Yeah. Like the sound of the Counterflow podcast.

1542
01:28:42,880 --> 01:28:46,560
Our audio production is provided by Podsworth Media. Check them

1543
01:28:46,600 --> 01:28:52,640
out at Podsworth dot com. This has been a Dissident

1544
01:28:52,720 --> 01:28:53,439
Media production