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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder The most Shocking
Speaker 6: Killers in True crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 6: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 6: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 6: journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 7: Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the
Speaker 7: program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in true crime
Speaker 7: History and the authors that have written about them. By
Speaker 7: the time Richard Trenton Chase graduated high school, everyone knew
Speaker 7: he was strange, but no one had any idea how
Speaker 7: bizarre he had become or what dark impulses were flowing
Speaker 7: through his troubled brain. The transformation from the outwardly strange
Speaker 7: young man to the diabolical killer he ultimately became was
Speaker 7: gradual and would not become known until it was too late. First,
Speaker 7: it was the killing of small animals and birds and
Speaker 7: the drinking of their blood. However, when these sacrifices failed
Speaker 7: to satiate his needs, Richard Chase would seek out the
Speaker 7: highest form of life, and the city of Sacramento, California,
Speaker 7: would react in horror to the hideous murders and mutilations
Speaker 7: committed by his hand. For those living in the quiet
Speaker 7: neighborhoods where the murders occurred, it was nothing less than
Speaker 7: a time of terror until the fiend was captured. Vampire
Speaker 7: the Richard Chase Murders, including twenty three photos, is an
Speaker 7: in depth look into the life and disturbed mind kind
Speaker 7: of a killer, his family, and his many victims. The
Speaker 7: living as well as the dead, discover what it was
Speaker 7: like for the police and what a difficult job they had.
Speaker 7: Finding a killer they knew wouldn't stop until he was
Speaker 7: apprehended was a race against time and a series of
Speaker 7: murders that would stun even the most hardened investigators. It
Speaker 7: is the story of a city under siege, held captive
Speaker 7: by the man whose appetite for blood could not be satisfied.
Speaker 7: The book that we're featuring this evening is Vampire the
Speaker 7: Richard Chase Murders with my special guest journalist and author,
Speaker 7: Kevin M. Sullivan. Welcome back to the program and thank
Speaker 7: you for agreeing to this interview. Kevin M. Sullivan.
Speaker 8: Oh, thanks, Dan it's great to be back with you.
Speaker 7: Well, thank you very much for agreeing to this interview.
Speaker 7: This is for those who have not heard of Richard Chase.
Speaker 7: This will be a program they won't soon forget. That's
Speaker 7: certain now, yes, And like I said just before we
Speaker 7: went on the air, I said, for those that have
Speaker 7: feint of heart even for this program, which is the
Speaker 7: most shocking killers in true crime history, this is one
Speaker 7: of the more shocking programs. When I ask you for
Speaker 7: some details, and the details are obviously very important to
Speaker 7: this story, and those details are very, very very graphic.
Speaker 7: Let's start off right now with.
Speaker 8: Tell us.
Speaker 7: I think the best way to do this is to
Speaker 7: tell us about the early life of Richard Chase. Tell Us,
Speaker 7: let's go back as far as you found out from
Speaker 7: all your information and what you've provided in your book Vampire,
Speaker 7: and tell us about the early life of Richard Chase.
Speaker 7: Where he grew up, what was he like, what was
Speaker 7: his parents, what was his early life really like.
Speaker 8: Richard Chase was born on Night twenty, nineteen fifty in Sacramento, California.
Speaker 8: You know, the nineteen fifties were a time of prosperity,
Speaker 8: our country having gone through the Second World War by
Speaker 8: the prosperity. But I say in the book that you know,
Speaker 8: even though it was a time of prosperity, every family
Speaker 8: is different, like every individual is different. And the Chase,
Speaker 8: the home in which Richard Chase grew up in was
Speaker 8: in many ways standard for a lot of families, but
Speaker 8: it also came with a lot of negatives. His mother,
Speaker 8: and I believe she's deceased now. She and her husband,
Speaker 8: Beatrice Chase and Richard were married and nine months later,
Speaker 8: you know, Richard was born and he was the first
Speaker 8: child to be born in his family. And it appears
Speaker 8: that the family had problems almost from the beginning, that
Speaker 8: is the relationship between Beatrice and Richard.
Speaker 5: And.
Speaker 8: It was not a smooth time for that family. And
Speaker 8: several years later I would have to check my book,
Speaker 8: but his sister, Pamela was born and she I think
Speaker 8: is the only surviving member of the family. But it
Speaker 8: was a time where there was a good deal of
Speaker 8: strife between the parents, with the addition of some mental
Speaker 8: problems on the part of Richard's mother, and she had
Speaker 8: been a school teacher. But I go into this relationship
Speaker 8: in depth. As far as his early years, he had
Speaker 8: to contend with some things in the home that weren't pleasant.
Speaker 8: But if you looked at Richard from the time he
Speaker 8: was a little boy on up until say high school,
Speaker 8: much of what you would see was pretty normal. He
Speaker 8: would play Little League, and he was a Cub scout,
Speaker 8: and he had friends. Now when he reached high school,
Speaker 8: he began to change a little bit. And it's interesting
Speaker 8: because sometimes people that become psychotic later on or mentally disturbed,
Speaker 8: sometimes that does not occur until they are up in
Speaker 8: their late teens and early twenties. And so there is
Speaker 8: a question as to what would have happened to Richard
Speaker 8: had he not gotten into drugs when he was in
Speaker 8: high school, which of course added to whatever mental impairment
Speaker 8: or illness that he had. But he may have gone
Speaker 8: the way of mental illness anyway within his makeup that
Speaker 8: it wouldn't necessarily be just the drugs. But I think
Speaker 8: the addition of the drugs helped him become quite strange
Speaker 8: when he was in high school. And I'm sorry, what
Speaker 8: kind of excuse me.
Speaker 7: What kind of drugs are we talking about? Specifically? And
Speaker 7: from his you said, relatively normal behavior despite some problems
Speaker 7: in the family, But again a lot of people have
Speaker 7: a lot of problems, rocky marriages, A lot of people
Speaker 7: have gone through that. What was the one thing that
Speaker 7: seemed to be in terms of his behavior that seemed
Speaker 7: to be a shift from normalcy to this odd, more
Speaker 7: strange behavior. And what kind of drugs was he doing
Speaker 7: that you say was probably not helping or maybe even
Speaker 7: been a catalyst for his mental illness. Tell us about that.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think the catalyst was probably the LSD that
Speaker 8: he was on. He's listed as having, of course, most marijuana,
Speaker 8: which that did not do what that would not have
Speaker 8: contributed so much to any kind of mental disorder, but
Speaker 8: the LSD certainly would have. And then he was also
Speaker 8: on amphetamines. But some things that were in his childhood
Speaker 8: that even though he appeared normal, like, for instance, I
Speaker 8: thought this was interesting, he was force fed once by
Speaker 8: his father when he was two, and then he bombed
Speaker 8: up all the food. And Pamela Chase and I didn't
Speaker 8: get the interview her. I couldn't locate her. But most
Speaker 8: everything I'm getting is from the record of their home
Speaker 8: life and the testimony that they had given to the authorities.
Speaker 8: But you know, the father was a really strict disciplinarian
Speaker 8: and so they wouldn't but have so much when Richard
Speaker 8: was young, although there could have been some heavy handed
Speaker 8: things going on. Uh, like I say, at the force feeding,
Speaker 8: and I think he threw when when Richard was eleven,
Speaker 8: the dad got very angry with him and maybe threw
Speaker 8: him up against the wall. Uh. And in fact that
Speaker 8: did happen. I think that was in connection with him
Speaker 8: accidentally uh losing the car key. So these Maine impressions
Speaker 8: on Richard. I don't know how comfortable he was being
Speaker 8: a child in that home frankly, but like this is
Speaker 8: just going to be a part of it. There's there's
Speaker 8: probably things. It's like with Bundy, We're just never going
Speaker 8: to know about why he went this way. And and really, uh,
Speaker 8: the drugs in the LSD. There was a member in
Speaker 8: my family, my brother, he got into drugs in the
Speaker 8: nineteen sixties and uh, you know he was kind I
Speaker 8: know this stuff firstthand and he he he became very
Speaker 8: mentally unbalanced and uh he was diagnosed later as a
Speaker 8: paranoid schizophrenic. And this is all connected with his makeup
Speaker 8: as well as his drug use in the late nineteen
Speaker 8: sixties and early nineteen seventies, but he never turned violent.
Speaker 8: So see, this is the aspect of Chase that we're
Speaker 8: looking at mental impairment and mental illness, and yet he
Speaker 8: went down the way of being a very diabolical individual.
Speaker 8: But we'll get in more to that later about how
Speaker 8: this is an offshoot and why this mental illness that
Speaker 8: he had drove him in that area. But there is
Speaker 8: another factor to that. In high school, you know, he
Speaker 8: was normal inasmuch as he was a heterosexual and he
Speaker 8: wanted a normal relationship with a girl, but he couldn't
Speaker 8: perform sexually. He was impotent, and he had a hard
Speaker 8: time sustaining in erection, and of course this bothered him
Speaker 8: and the girls that he dated. Girls, they didn't dump
Speaker 8: him right away over it, but they eventually did. And
Speaker 8: I say in the book that whatever else, inferiority and
Speaker 8: insecurity and so all of that became even more heightened
Speaker 8: during his high school years. I think he had I
Speaker 8: just check the book. But his first arrest for marijuana,
Speaker 8: I think that happened in I think in nineteen sixty nine,
Speaker 8: so he would be nineteen. He would have just been
Speaker 8: out of school. That was his first arrest. And I
Speaker 8: got a picture of the mup shot in the book
Speaker 8: is he's very young there, but it was very Again,
Speaker 8: it's going to be it's going to be the drugs,
Speaker 8: it's going to be his makeup. It's just there's going
Speaker 8: to be some things that when you look at his
Speaker 8: life you'll see where all of this played apart. And
Speaker 8: yet even going down the road of mental illness, and
Speaker 8: I don't mean legal insanity. He was legally sane when
Speaker 8: he commit these murders with question, but he was also
Speaker 8: mentally imbalanced, very heavily mentally ill. He was just he
Speaker 8: was a very very strange individual.
Speaker 7: Now you're you're talking about high school, and again we
Speaker 7: we just kind of glossed over what what behavior now
Speaker 7: in retrospect was he doing and even people knew again
Speaker 7: not not after the fact, after the trial, after the
Speaker 7: the incidents, the murders, but what was he doing? And
Speaker 7: then I'm referring to obviously with the animals, what was
Speaker 7: he doing with animals at this at an early age
Speaker 7: that you know, again it's almost text well it's not almost,
Speaker 7: it's textbook in term of when we talk about profiling,
Speaker 7: so you know, tell us about that, what.
Speaker 8: Was he doing with animals. Well, okay, it's uh, the
Speaker 8: the the He was convinced, see this is see, this
Speaker 8: is the funny thing. Although he was legally saying, you know,
Speaker 8: normal society would look at a guy like this like, well,
Speaker 8: he's just gone off his rocker, he's nuts. Chase developed
Speaker 8: a strong sense of that there was something wrong with
Speaker 8: him and that he needed blood to sustain his life,
Speaker 8: and the killing of animals, you know, small animals, birds,
Speaker 8: and the drinking of their blood without question. He did
Speaker 8: this because he thought he needed it. And you know,
Speaker 8: he would say strange things. Now, this would be a little,
Speaker 8: this will be a little later on. When the strangers
Speaker 8: first started to appear with him, it was in his
Speaker 8: high school years as he went down the way of drugs.
Speaker 8: But once he got out of high school, he became
Speaker 8: really People knew that he was strange, he was mentally unbalanced.
Speaker 8: He wasn't killing an yet, he wasn't killing animals that early,
Speaker 8: but as things progressed, it when from small animals and
Speaker 8: then he started killing dogs and dogs became a big
Speaker 8: And it wasn't just killing the dogs or drinking their blood,
Speaker 8: but he would eat portions of the dogs as well.
Speaker 8: Now he believed that. He told somebody once he said,
Speaker 8: you know, when these things started coming to the surface,
Speaker 8: that he believed someone had stolen his pulmonary artery, that
Speaker 8: his heart, though these were in his mind legitimate physical
Speaker 8: things that were going on. This is the difference between
Speaker 8: like Richard Chase and for instance, Ted Bundy. T they're
Speaker 8: both diabolical killers. But you couldn't look at Ted Bundy
Speaker 8: and say he's crazy or he's nuts. But it's easy
Speaker 8: to look at a guy like Richard Chase and say, well,
Speaker 8: he's crazy. He's crazy. People don't say things like that.
Speaker 8: So you had a lot of very strong paranoia emotions.
Speaker 8: He was eventually diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic, although there
Speaker 8: were some that didn't agree with that. Without question, he
Speaker 8: was deeply mentally ill. But he again, as we get
Speaker 8: into the story more, when he got into the murders,
Speaker 8: he was he proved by the actions that he took
Speaker 8: that he was trying to conceal what he was doing,
Speaker 8: which taught to planning and awareness of what society believed
Speaker 8: what was right or wrong, and that murder was wrong.
Speaker 8: So but he was a very very very demented individual.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 7: But this is one of those cases where it's the
Speaker 7: very again people you can say, well, that's not legally insane,
Speaker 7: so when you say he's crazy, but those these are
Speaker 7: the kinds of murders that are so senseless and over
Speaker 7: the top and vicious and humiliating and stuff out of
Speaker 7: fiction right now. So, so what does he what's his
Speaker 7: life you're pointing, you're alluding to that his strange behavior
Speaker 7: becomes a bit of a loner, uh, to say the least.
Speaker 7: What's his contact with his family?
Speaker 4: Is?
Speaker 7: He's still living with his family? Tell us what happens
Speaker 7: after high school? Where does he go to his any
Speaker 7: career plans? What what happens with his life?
Speaker 8: Well, he he enrolls at American River College in Sacramento,
Speaker 8: and he's by that time, you know, he's he's pretty
Speaker 8: well mentally impaired. His grades are not that great. He
Speaker 8: drags his schooling out. He is still living at home.
Speaker 8: But after a while he uh he met some folks
Speaker 8: out Uh they saw him sitting on his long one
Speaker 8: day and these uh, these folks were renting some rooms
Speaker 8: in the house. They got to talking with him and
Speaker 8: they made him a mate. But you know, I see
Speaker 8: in the book because Chase was not drooling and babbling
Speaker 8: or whatever they thought he might make, you know, just
Speaker 8: he seemed for the few minutes that they talked fairly normal.
Speaker 8: Once he got inside with them, and his father helped him, uh,
Speaker 8: you know, with with you know, the rent. He Chase
Speaker 8: didn't work a lot, but he would work some, but
Speaker 8: his his father would help with that. And then they
Speaker 8: began to see how strange he was. And so it
Speaker 8: didn't take people too long. You know, he would do
Speaker 8: weird things. I mean like for instance, they uh, they
Speaker 8: would uh have people over and you know, he would exchange.
Speaker 8: At one point he uh when he when he was
Speaker 8: with this couple, Uh, he would he had his own bedroom,
Speaker 8: but he boarded up the door, and then he went
Speaker 8: into the closet and not and knocked a hole through
Speaker 8: that wall so he could come and go. And then
Speaker 8: he would keep you know, boarded up. And so he
Speaker 8: became very paranoid with them. Uh. It became he became
Speaker 8: past living with with with these folks, and they asked
Speaker 8: him to leave. He wouldn't, so they left. And then
Speaker 8: this girl's brother, uh Rachel, I think her name is Stadium.
Speaker 8: I don't have to look in front of me, but uh,
Speaker 8: she her her brother. And so if his friends moved in.
Speaker 8: They had a band, and Richard was always wanting to
Speaker 8: join in the band, and they would ask him not to,
Speaker 8: but he would anyway. They would have let's take some
Speaker 8: girls over. He would stroll out in the into the
Speaker 8: room completely nude, and he was just always doing and
Speaker 8: he was stoned and he was high on drugs all
Speaker 8: the time. So that as this progressed through his early life,
Speaker 8: and of course finally he he you know, he had
Speaker 8: to withdraw from American River College. Was he just couldn't
Speaker 8: cut it, and you know, and so he would go
Speaker 8: back to his mother's house on Montclair, which this whole
Speaker 8: thing is in just one section of the Sacramento. And
Speaker 8: you know, once he starts committing the murders, they're.
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Speaker 8: Done within a radius of about a mile of his
Speaker 8: own and his father once the divorce went through with
Speaker 8: he you know, he lived on Valkyrie, which is very
Speaker 8: close to all that stuff, and Montclair was close. So
Speaker 8: it's all right there.
Speaker 6: And so.
Speaker 8: After a while and all of this you have to
Speaker 8: understand is a progression, and it's you know, it's the
Speaker 8: drugs it's the mental impairment and the illness. And then
Speaker 8: usually with a lot of some people, they become harder
Speaker 8: to deal with, harder to live with. The paranoia will increase.
Speaker 8: Sometimes there's violence, and this is what happened with Richard.
Speaker 8: He would get in arguments with his mother and like
Speaker 8: when his sister would come over even when she had
Speaker 8: left home, and he would think that they were poisoning him.
Speaker 8: And he had slapped his mother once and pushed her
Speaker 8: down another time. Or his father would have to come
Speaker 8: over to try to calm things. And one time they
Speaker 8: got in a fist fight in the front yard, and
Speaker 8: and so he became very very hard to deal with.
Speaker 8: And when on the one occasion when Richard hit his mother,
Speaker 8: she called the police and he left. He took off
Speaker 8: front and of course the officers came and they said, well,
Speaker 8: you know, we'll be happy to arrest your son, but
Speaker 8: you're gonna have to uh, she's you know, because they
Speaker 8: didn't witness it. They said you have to take a
Speaker 8: warrant out for his arrest. So she didn't want to
Speaker 8: do that, so she called the Aquarium Effort, which is
Speaker 8: a place out there for where people can seek help
Speaker 8: for mental problems, so on and so forth, and so
Speaker 8: that pushed him into a road of going down that way,
Speaker 8: and Richard Chase became very interested. He wasn't opposed to
Speaker 8: seeing doctors because he really, really really believed that these
Speaker 8: strange things that his heart was stopping, that pulmonary artery
Speaker 8: was stolen, bones were growing out through the back of
Speaker 8: his head. And of course he'd get in there with
Speaker 8: these doctors and they would, you know, they would write
Speaker 8: their reports. I've been through all the reports. A lot
Speaker 8: of them are reproduced in the book, and you know,
Speaker 8: they just you know, he's diagnosed his PARENTO, he's schizophrentic, this, that,
Speaker 8: and so you know, he was willing to go down
Speaker 8: that road. Now. For a while, before these murders occurred,
Speaker 8: they had gotten Chase on some medication which was actually
Speaker 8: helping him. And in a case like that, they are
Speaker 8: these drugs are designed they can't it's not that they
Speaker 8: no longer are schitzophrak or whatever it is, but it
Speaker 8: can keep some of these things in checked to where
Speaker 8: the improvement could be considered guarded, but that it could happen.
Speaker 8: And in Chase's case, there was improvement for a while.
Speaker 8: His mother said it was for two years. I don't
Speaker 8: see that in the record. It's not there. His father
Speaker 8: said it wasn't two years. But the funny thing about
Speaker 8: it was is that the family was so burdened because,
Speaker 8: as I say in the book, everybody in the family
Speaker 8: of a menally old person pays a price. They suffer
Speaker 8: along with it a lot of demands from those folks,
Speaker 8: and there's a lot of heartache and things like that.
Speaker 8: So there's a lot of grieving that goes with that,
Speaker 8: and there's financial concerns that people can't work. There's a
Speaker 8: lot of strain on families that take care of people
Speaker 8: like this. Well, here he's starting to improve. He was
Speaker 8: always just very, very thin. It was something he didn't
Speaker 8: like about himself. But he was so incredibly thin and
Speaker 8: he was able to put I think some twenty pounds
Speaker 8: on his frame during this period of improvement when they
Speaker 8: had him on medication. But his mother did not like
Speaker 8: the fact that it made him like a zombie, so
Speaker 8: of her own volition about doctor's orders, she had him
Speaker 8: stopped the medication. Well, you know, when you got somebody
Speaker 8: like this and they're being helped by it, you know,
Speaker 8: you had to be off the wall to take them
Speaker 8: off of it, because there's no place to go if
Speaker 8: you take him off the medication. So he went back downhill.
Speaker 8: And this is not to say that this time of
Speaker 8: improvement would have continued on the medication, but she guaranteed
Speaker 8: that it wouldn't continue by taking him off. And to
Speaker 8: these two these are also reports, these doctor's reports where
Speaker 8: they go over this in the in his file. And
Speaker 8: so from there he descended. Well after the incident where
Speaker 8: there was some violence, she and her ex husband moved
Speaker 8: you know him out to a house of really a
Speaker 8: small little cottage house behind this other home in that area.
Speaker 8: He was there for a while. Then he ended up
Speaker 8: on Watt Avenue in apartment twelve. He was there for
Speaker 8: a while, decided he wanted to leave, and then of
Speaker 8: course there's the by that time he's already killing animals.
Speaker 8: In fact, the drinking of rabbits blood happened while.
Speaker 2: He was in the.
Speaker 8: Living in that small cottage. His father used to come
Speaker 8: over and visit him some and they played chess, and
Speaker 8: he asked about the rabbits. He said, Richard, why do
Speaker 8: you have these rabbits? You know, Chase It bought these
Speaker 8: rabbits from a guy in Rio Linda, California, and he said, well,
Speaker 8: they're for eating. Well, you know, mister Chase has been
Speaker 8: used to strange things coming out of Richard for a
Speaker 8: long time. He didn't know he was drinking his blood.
Speaker 8: But either that night or the next day, it probably
Speaker 8: is the next day. I'm not sure. I don't think
Speaker 8: they're sure. Chase injected himself with rabbit's blood and he
Speaker 8: nearly killed himself. He became really, really sick. So they
Speaker 8: came over anythinking to the hospital. He was you know,
Speaker 8: he was very very ill for a while. And of
Speaker 8: course he did that because he thought he needed it.
Speaker 8: See this is the type of metal illness that this
Speaker 8: guy was going through. And because nobody would do that
Speaker 8: in the right mind. But so anyway, so this progression
Speaker 8: of killing animals and drinking their blood, and you know
Speaker 8: Beatrice Chase, I mean, you know, the Chase family had,
Speaker 8: you know, he had a couple of dogs. I mean,
Speaker 8: there was some dog and she had. He ended up
Speaker 8: killing all those animals. And before he killed the animals,
Speaker 8: she would catch him sometimes squeezing the palls of one
Speaker 8: of the dogs so hard, or squeezing its jaw, and
Speaker 8: you know, just to see it suffer. So the precression
Speaker 8: went from just an odd individual to you know, staying
Speaker 8: far out things, to being you know, violent towards his
Speaker 8: family members, not exceedingly violent, but violent enough confrontation is physical,
Speaker 8: not you know, trying to kill anybody, to then being
Speaker 8: you know, cruel to these animals, and then killing the animals,
Speaker 8: drinking their blood. And of course once he was off
Speaker 8: his medication that was helping him that really there was
Speaker 8: no turning back. He was just going to go down
Speaker 8: this road, which he did and he started killing humans.
Speaker 8: That was going to be the ultimate thing.
Speaker 7: Anyway, what did the psakaya? You say, the system is
Speaker 7: a paranoid schizophrenic, but obviously they didn't assess them as
Speaker 7: a paranoid schizophrenic with homicidal tendencies. So did he again
Speaker 7: the testament did to his part.
Speaker 8: Me, Yeah, see that's the thing. Most see, this is
Speaker 8: the thing. And I can I can attest to this
Speaker 8: from having had somebody in our family like this, exactly
Speaker 8: like this, with the same diagnosis, with the same drug use.
Speaker 8: And I can tell you that most of the people
Speaker 8: that ruin their lives this way, and I'm going to
Speaker 8: say those who let us say, did it through the
Speaker 8: whosinogenic drugs of the nineteen sixties. For those who change
Speaker 8: themselves chemically or these imbalances occur, they don't usually go
Speaker 8: down that road. There's a lot of homeless people that
Speaker 8: are mentally ill, but they usually don't go down the
Speaker 8: road of violence. And even if they are too violent
Speaker 8: or too disruptive to live of families, they don't go
Speaker 8: out and commit murders. And they certainly don't qu out
Speaker 8: and commit the kind of murder I should say, murders
Speaker 8: that Richard Chase committed. It just doesn't usually go down
Speaker 8: that road. So everybody wants this occurs. They're wanting to
Speaker 8: take the doctors to task, and they're wanting to take
Speaker 8: anybody else to task. Who let this guy out on
Speaker 8: the street. But the problem with all of this is
Speaker 8: people have rights under the Constitution. And I had a
Speaker 8: judge tell me once that I was asking to hold
Speaker 8: my brother longer. He said, listen, he's got rights. They attested,
Speaker 8: he's not a danger to himself or someone else. He's
Speaker 8: got rights, and he's right. So you know, they can
Speaker 8: put holds on people like seventy two hour holds, But
Speaker 8: I'm telling you, so nobody knew that this guy was
Speaker 8: going to go down that road. There's a lot of
Speaker 8: strange people out there who are never going to harm
Speaker 8: anybody with the same diagnoses.
Speaker 7: Let's make a distinction right now, because this subject comes
Speaker 7: up and I always try to make this distinction, because
Speaker 7: we have this particularly infamous case that happened about three
Speaker 7: years ago, and the person that committed these atrocious murders
Speaker 7: and cannibalism and decapitation on a greyhound bus is now
Speaker 7: afforded walking visits outside the mental facility, and he soon
Speaker 7: will be released within easily within five years. Despite the uh,
Speaker 7: the outrage from citizens, it won't make any difference. So
Speaker 7: there's where we are a difference. But here's the thing
Speaker 7: that I want to say. I'd hate to be a
Speaker 7: person with mental illness in the future, going to have
Speaker 7: mental illness or have a family member as mental illness.
Speaker 7: This has nothing to do most vast majority of people
Speaker 7: that are mentally ill do not hurt anyone, let alone
Speaker 7: themselvesselves or everyone else. This is a person that happens
Speaker 7: to be a killer who happens right it's aphrenic. I
Speaker 7: let's make that mistation because this guy has been Richard
Speaker 7: Chase is probably capable of what only a handful of
Speaker 7: humans in the last one hundred years of a capable
Speaker 7: of doing. So let's let's make that distinction. Because mental
Speaker 7: illness already has a stigma. We don't need, you know,
Speaker 7: I don't think mentally ill people need to be lumped
Speaker 7: in with killers who happen to have a mental illness.
Speaker 8: No, that's true, That's absolutely true. And so even though
Speaker 8: he has been given this diagnosis of this, it's still
Speaker 8: most people that have a diagnosis such such as this,
Speaker 8: they they don't go down that road. And so once
Speaker 8: these things occur and there's this uproar, I mean, you know,
Speaker 8: if you look statistically, it it's just this is a
Speaker 8: first of all, this type of murder is a rarity,
Speaker 8: it really is. But but the thing of it is
Speaker 8: is that just because he was mentally ill, you know,
Speaker 8: there's other factors going on there. I know, most menial
Speaker 8: individuals don't do this. They are more likely at some
Speaker 8: point to perhaps take their own lives maybe, but not
Speaker 8: to go out and commit murders. But anyway, so this
Speaker 8: is this is where Chase was, and this was his background,
Speaker 8: you know, and up until the time when he committed
Speaker 8: his first murder. His first murder, of course, was nothing
Speaker 8: like the additional murders to come.
Speaker 1: It was.
Speaker 8: It was very different. But he passed that place from
Speaker 8: where he was going to drink animal blood that he
Speaker 8: wanted human blood. Although his first murder, which was the
Speaker 8: murder of Ambrose Griffin, which was in late December, yeah,
Speaker 8: of seventy seven. Yeah, and it was just a drive
Speaker 8: by shooting and chase, you know, lived on on one
Speaker 8: Avenue and then just down from what is was the
Speaker 8: street where Ambrose Griffin lives, which is I think I
Speaker 8: think Robinson Avenue. Again, I don't have my hook in
Speaker 8: front of me, but it's very.
Speaker 7: Very much Robertson Avenue.
Speaker 8: And so yeah, so this is this is so weird.
Speaker 8: Here you got a guy fifty one years old with
Speaker 8: a Bureau of Land Management. It's around and I think
Speaker 8: around eight thirty at night, you know, just after Christmas
Speaker 8: and gone to the store with his wife Carol, and
Speaker 8: they're coming in the door bringing in groceries. Inside is
Speaker 8: their daughter in law and Gail Griffin, and then one
Speaker 8: of the sons. That's something one that she was married to.
Speaker 8: Her husband was somewhere else, but but that but her
Speaker 8: brother in law or their son was an ouse, David Griffin,
Speaker 8: And so they carry in, uh some groceries, and Ambrose
Speaker 8: comes out and he's going to get the last bag,
Speaker 8: and Carol was I mean, yeah, I mean Gail Griffin
Speaker 8: was holding the door. Carol was inside, and her other
Speaker 8: her son was inside, and all of a sudden, like
Speaker 8: a popping sound, a couple of popping sounds, uh might
Speaker 8: even sound like firecrackers, and Carol Griffin comes out in
Speaker 8: time to see her husband turn and fall and she
Speaker 8: thinks he's having a heart attack, and uh not putting
Speaker 8: two and two together. Real quiet neighborhood, you know, it's
Speaker 8: real quiet around here. I mean homicides and they're they're rare,
Speaker 8: and you know, even though sometimes people have shot around,
Speaker 8: you know, as I talked about in the book, around
Speaker 8: the neighborhood, around the creek, and they're out plinking with
Speaker 8: their guns and people might not like that. Just aren't
Speaker 8: any homicides like this. So anyway, so you know, they're
Speaker 8: thinking he's having a heart attack, and they call the
Speaker 8: you know, paramedics, and they get there, pull back his jacket.
Speaker 8: He's got a blood stain and he's he's losing consciousness.
Speaker 8: He did have a chance to fill his wife that
Speaker 8: he was shot. Well, she's still thinking he had a
Speaker 8: heart attack. Well they get to the you know it
Speaker 8: did the bullet has just done too much damage. It's
Speaker 8: weird too, because when I was in Sacramento doing the
Speaker 8: doing the uh uh, going through the files that they
Speaker 8: had real evidence there and I opened the one thing
Speaker 8: and they had the bullet of Ambrose Griffin that had
Speaker 8: gone into his body and it had uh you know,
Speaker 8: uh mushroomed out, you know, from the impact, and and
Speaker 8: it was odd seeing that. Here I'm writing about this guy,
Speaker 8: you know, getting ready to write about this guy. And uh. Anyway,
Speaker 8: but uh so you know, of course he dies and
Speaker 8: he gets to the hospital and he's he's basically dead
Speaker 8: on arrival and uh but there's no drinking of blood.
Speaker 8: This Chase just wanted to kill somebody. He just wanted
Speaker 8: to kill. He had been going through the neighborhood actually
Speaker 8: and shooting the Holmes the days prior to that. And
Speaker 8: there was a lady named Peleski. Uh, she's doing her
Speaker 8: dishes one night in the kitchen and here because of
Speaker 8: the bullet whizzing through the glass and goes right through
Speaker 8: her hair, embedding herself in the wall or something, and there,
Speaker 8: you know, And then people would hear this shooting, and
Speaker 8: because sometimes people were shot around the area, they didn't
Speaker 8: think too much of it. But yeah, but she you know,
Speaker 8: she called the police or whatever. You know, they came
Speaker 8: out and cut the bullet or whatever. And then but yeah,
Speaker 8: so and so he kills Griffin.
Speaker 7: And then that's that's now other than that, other than
Speaker 7: the other than the gun caliber, what the cops have
Speaker 7: in terms of evidence, Like you say, this is a
Speaker 7: very very early Richard Chase just wants to kill somebody.
Speaker 7: But in terms of the police, this is this is
Speaker 7: a rare thing, a murder like this. So what do
Speaker 7: they conclude at this point in terms of who could
Speaker 7: what's the seeming motive and what do they conclude? And
Speaker 7: then you can continue on, Yeah, well.
Speaker 8: People had different opinions, but the realized stude cops they
Speaker 8: could see that it appeared to be a motiveless crime.
Speaker 8: I mean, the more they investigated this, they could see
Speaker 8: the Griffin, this is not a guy that has enemies. Now,
Speaker 8: it was at night, there was no real evidence there,
Speaker 8: and the place was swarming with cops even at night,
Speaker 8: but they couldn't see anything. Well, what Chase had done.
Speaker 8: He had taken this Stober Arms Luger style twenty two
Speaker 8: caliber pistol, pushed it a little bit out the window
Speaker 8: and fired it twice, one bullet, striking Ambrose Griffin. The
Speaker 8: shellcase seems ejected to the right. It's pretty normal. They hit,
Speaker 8: and of course he's trambling. They landed on his hood
Speaker 8: and while they're rolling off the hood, he's traveling down
Speaker 8: the road and he's picking up some speed now because
Speaker 8: I guess he saw Griffin ball. Well, they ended up
Speaker 8: landing like two or three doors down about eighty feet
Speaker 8: I think was the longest one, and the newscrew coming.
Speaker 8: This was embarrassing to the police. But the news crew
Speaker 8: came and discovered these shellcase as they were trying to
Speaker 8: set up cameras the next day. One was in perfect condition.
Speaker 8: I've also held those of my hand. I mean the
Speaker 8: oh they were there, and one's been flattened, which it
Speaker 8: could have been stept on, but more likely a car
Speaker 8: ran over it. And so anyway, but you know, they
Speaker 8: did a lot of canvas scene of the neighborhood, it's
Speaker 8: just regular, uh kind of you know, organized but but
Speaker 8: grueling sometimes police work. And they discovered that that that
Speaker 8: Griffin didn't have enemies, and so this is a modivelous crime.
Speaker 8: And the guy that worked with me, one of the
Speaker 8: guys worked with me, Bill Roberts, he remembers thinking, and
Speaker 8: I quote him in the book about that these things,
Speaker 8: you know, that they didn't even use the term drive
Speaker 8: by shootings very much, and that these things just didn't happen,
Speaker 8: not in Sacramento. And uh so, yeah, everybody was shocked,
Speaker 8: but you know, they knew it was a twenty two
Speaker 8: caliber and uh but this wasn't one of the real
Speaker 8: diabac you know, diabolical killing. This is somebody just shooting
Speaker 8: somebody as they drove by, and it there's no enemies.
Speaker 8: They just didn't know what to make of it. And
Speaker 8: I know one person said that they thought, well, maybe
Speaker 8: it was just some kids shooting at signs, okay, and
Speaker 8: they didn't mean to hit this guy.
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Speaker 8: See all that speculation. And they didn't know. But on
Speaker 8: the morning of January twenty third, Chase committed his next
Speaker 8: murder of twenty two year old Teresa Wallin. And I
Speaker 8: got in the book. You know the Wallins lived on
Speaker 8: Tioga Way, and that's that their backyard backs up into
Speaker 8: the back parking lot of a place called the Pantry Market. Well,
Speaker 8: Chase had been at the Pantry Market that morning, and
Speaker 8: he was filthy. He was just he had some cruster
Speaker 8: of something around his mouth. And he ran into an
Speaker 8: old high school kind of like friend, an acquaintance, a
Speaker 8: woman named Nancy Holden who was married. Name used to
Speaker 8: be Westfall. And of course he's exuding weirdness. He's filthy,
Speaker 8: but he's weird, and she's talking to him and wanted
Speaker 8: to get away from him talking to her inside the store,
Speaker 8: and she hurries and gets away from him. And as
Speaker 8: she's leeving the parking lot, he's trying to open her
Speaker 8: door because he wants to talk to her. She gets away.
Speaker 8: She looks in her review mirror and she sees him
Speaker 8: walking towards the bank the back of the pantry market.
Speaker 8: Well chases with him in just a short time of
Speaker 8: committing the murder of Teresa Wallen. And Teresa Wallen was
Speaker 8: a state worker and she was I think she was
Speaker 8: working part time for the state, but she had a
Speaker 8: day off her husband, David, they've been married several years.
Speaker 8: She was three months pregnant. And he goes in her home.
Speaker 8: He cuts to the right of the Pantry Market, doesn't
Speaker 8: go in Wallin's yard, goes down another three or four
Speaker 8: houses to the right and goes right around the front.
Speaker 8: And this is so bizarre, you think he walked down
Speaker 8: the street, but he goes starts cutting and fraud across
Speaker 8: the front lawn and the front porches of these other homes. Well,
Speaker 8: he crosses the couple named east Lick, which are like
Speaker 8: four or five fours up from the Wallins, and he,
Speaker 8: mister Eastley, gets up and looks at this guy. He's
Speaker 8: just barely got a shot of him. Okay, So he
Speaker 8: goes down to the wall in Residents, tries the door
Speaker 8: of the door's open, and Teresa Wallen is coming through
Speaker 8: there with a bag. She's just house cleaning, and he
Speaker 8: shoots and shoots her two two times, and one time
Speaker 8: a grazer went through her wrist. I've got it in
Speaker 8: the book. But it wasn't until he shut her like
Speaker 8: the third time that it pierced her head and you know,
Speaker 8: was in her brain and she collapsed. She wasn't quite dead,
Speaker 8: but but she was on her way. And uh then
Speaker 8: from that came the diabolical stuff that he did, which
Speaker 8: I've seen the I've seen the crime scene photos.
Speaker 5: It's just ghastly.
Speaker 8: Yeah, they're just ghastly. And uh, this real diabolical stuff.
Speaker 8: And and and uh so he mutilated her, He drank
Speaker 8: her blood, and he did those things that that uh
Speaker 8: you just you know, you just it just sets people
Speaker 8: apart in the realm of murder. You just it just
Speaker 8: really really strange stuff. And so he but he's smart
Speaker 8: enough to wear gloves and uh, he accidentally left his
Speaker 8: socks behind. They were bloody, but they couldn't trace anything
Speaker 8: by that. So he leaves this scene of carnage committed
Speaker 8: in broad daylight, and he goes home and waits for
Speaker 8: the paper to be delivered. And there's a there's a guy.
Speaker 8: There's a there's a deputy named Ivan Clark who shows
Speaker 8: up at the scene. Now, i'van Clark was a hardened investigator.
Speaker 8: Bill Roberts doing well. They I think they both went
Speaker 8: through the academy out there, and then Carl Clark came
Speaker 8: out of that house. He was ashen. It was so horrible.
Speaker 7: And uh, didn't didn't didn't her husband discover his wife though?
Speaker 7: Talk about Ashton? Yeah, yeah, yeah, so the husband, the
Speaker 7: husband discovers his wife.
Speaker 8: The husband discovered his wife, but Clark was just when
Speaker 8: he was there later, he was just, you know, overwhelmed
Speaker 8: by it and he was ashen. Yes, And uh, what
Speaker 8: I was gonna say is that Clark was also uh
Speaker 8: in this case. He was the first one in on
Speaker 8: the scene of the Maroth murders, which was which was
Speaker 8: the following Friday on the twenty seventh, So I was
Speaker 8: kind of getting ahead of myself. Yeah, but Robert told
Speaker 8: me that Ivan Clark worked both of these homicides, and
Speaker 8: they deeply affected him, really affected this time. And he
Speaker 8: wasn't the only and he wasn't the only one. Uh.
Speaker 8: I can't remember the fellow's name, I've got it written down,
Speaker 8: but yeah, the husband would came home later. The officers
Speaker 8: were called he. In fact, when David Walling he was
Speaker 8: he worked he worked for a company called National Linen.
Speaker 8: I think that was he was training the guy that
Speaker 8: takes place. That might have been this last day, but
Speaker 8: I can't remember. But he was training this this fellow. Well,
Speaker 8: they he trains him all day and he comes and
Speaker 8: they out we could go have a couple of beers
Speaker 8: or whatever. And he drafts home and he's going in
Speaker 8: the front door and it's dark and the music's on,
Speaker 8: and he flips on the porch light and he sees
Speaker 8: what appears to be oil stains in the carpet, and
Speaker 8: there's garbage strewn all over him. But that goes on.
Speaker 8: Oil stains. Those are bloodstains. And he had actually killed
Speaker 8: her in the front room, dragged her body back to
Speaker 8: the bedroom anyway, so he's calling out for her. Their dog,
Speaker 8: Brutus comes up to him and he's acting strange, and
Speaker 8: he goes back in the bedroom and he sees his
Speaker 8: wife dead. He only looks at her for a few seconds,
Speaker 8: but there's no mistaking she's dead. She's got she had
Speaker 8: been cut down the middle and stuff was coming out
Speaker 8: of her and she just had, you know, some gaffly
Speaker 8: stuff happ to her. So he runs across to the
Speaker 8: neighbor's house says, my wife's dead, and then he calls
Speaker 8: the sheriff. The father comes over. He called his father first,
Speaker 8: and then they called the sheriff's department. Sheriff's department comes over,
Speaker 8: the two officers come over. Ivan Clark ends up going
Speaker 8: over there. So everybody shows up. So he got this
Speaker 8: ghastly scene. Ray Beyondy, who is the commander of homicide.
Speaker 8: He gets the call think around nine o'clock or something. No,
Speaker 8: probably earlier than that, but anyway, so he's called at
Speaker 8: everybody's there, and then he shows up, and of course
Speaker 8: beyond he knows from looking at it, and all the
Speaker 8: officers know that whoever did this is not going to stop.
Speaker 8: They're gonna have to catch this guy. He's just not
Speaker 8: He's not gonna go away. He's going to keep doing this.
Speaker 8: And I got to quote in the book from when
Speaker 8: I think it was it was Bill Roberts and somebody
Speaker 8: else shows up there Beyondy makes a remark similar to that,
Speaker 8: they got to catch this this guy before he does
Speaker 8: it again. So, I mean, you know, the nobody'd really
Speaker 8: seen anything like this. I mean, these guys have been
Speaker 8: to a lot of homicides. It's like this one guy
Speaker 8: said on the documentary that us always said, but it's
Speaker 8: not every day when you see that somebody becomes a
Speaker 8: murder somebody and then cuts them open and moves their
Speaker 8: stuff around. It just didn't happen so anyway. So that's
Speaker 8: on a Monday. So here we go leg work, everybody's
Speaker 8: working overtime. The city's getting just that area of Sacramento
Speaker 8: is becoming very unnerved that this could happen in you
Speaker 8: know what, it's still daylight and she's home. It's a
Speaker 8: quiet neighborhood.
Speaker 7: Well.
Speaker 8: By Friday, Chase goes in and kills just a little
Speaker 8: bit farther way down on Marywood by the country Club Center,
Speaker 8: again in a very close radius mile mile and a
Speaker 8: half from where he lives, and he kills Evelyn Marat
Speaker 8: and her son Jason, And he kills Evelyn Danny nephew,
Speaker 8: and then Daniel Meredith who liked Evelyn even though she
Speaker 8: had a boyfriend, he liked her. All these people were killed,
Speaker 8: and if we have time, I can go into the
Speaker 8: sequence of it. But he killed them all, but he
Speaker 8: didn't kill them all. At the same time, he had
Speaker 8: parked his car at the country club's center. Oddly it
Speaker 8: was by a concrete planner sicken kind of out in
Speaker 8: the lane. He crosses over to Marywood, which dead ends
Speaker 8: up where the country club's you know, center is. He
Speaker 8: goes down a couple hundred feet to the house on
Speaker 8: the right, thirty two oh seven Marywood. The garage door
Speaker 8: is open. He gets into a there was no forest entry,
Speaker 8: so they're assuming he went in through the north into
Speaker 8: the house through the garage. Daniel Meredith had gone with
Speaker 8: Jason to pick up some snow shoes because he's supposed
Speaker 8: to go with the family across the street up into
Speaker 8: the mountains. And while they are gone, he kills you know,
Speaker 8: Maroth and then he butchers her, just some strange things.
Speaker 8: He cut her eye out and cut her around the
Speaker 8: eye and left it sticking out. It just you know,
Speaker 8: it's just you just wonder it's just it's so so diabolical.
Speaker 8: And he takes the baby and kills the baby. And
Speaker 8: then he takes the baby, and of course Meredith and Jason,
Speaker 8: I guess are still gone. Takes the baby and kills
Speaker 8: the baby there in the crib, takes the baby into
Speaker 8: the bathroom where he had taken Evelyn Maroth. And he
Speaker 8: sodomized Evelyn Maroth in the bathroom. And I say in
Speaker 8: the book he could do with a dead body what
Speaker 8: he couldn't do with a living girl, had trouble with sex,
Speaker 8: but he so, you know, And so here here he
Speaker 8: is with a dead person. And then he cuts the
Speaker 8: back of the baby's head open, and and and because
Speaker 8: of the brain, man in the blood, and so they Daniel,
Speaker 8: Meredith comes back, and they come into it. Meredith is
Speaker 8: killed first with a shot to the head. Jason he's
Speaker 8: got a bullet wound later they discovered in the back
Speaker 8: of his neck, so he probably turned to run but
Speaker 8: was killed quickly too. Then they were dragged out of
Speaker 8: the front room for some distance. I think Meredith was
Speaker 8: left in the hall. But anyway, so here's this other
Speaker 8: ghastly murder. But the good thing is is that one
Speaker 8: thing Chase was. He was a disorganized killer, and it
Speaker 8: was the chance meeting and hit. This is Friday, the
Speaker 8: twenty seventh of January nineteen seventy eight, the meeting that
Speaker 8: Nancy Holden had with Chase at the Pantry Market the
Speaker 8: previous Monday. Once these other murders occur, she tells her,
Speaker 8: I think it was her father, who was a retired
Speaker 8: police sergeant, about this strange guy. Excuse me.
Speaker 7: What it was too, is that we glossed over it
Speaker 7: too as well as was is that this is something
Speaker 7: very noticeable. And when the description came it was a
Speaker 7: man in an orange parka. Yes, kind of an unusual
Speaker 7: color for a parka. And then Nancy said, ah, she
Speaker 7: obviously knew there was quite strange behavior, and she recognized
Speaker 7: him from high school. And then the also all the
Speaker 7: also her his neighbor and in the Wade apartments. I
Speaker 7: believed Dawn also put two and two together. But it
Speaker 7: really was that orange parker I think was one of
Speaker 7: the big you know, one of the big things that
Speaker 7: convinced her as well. You know, obviously that chance meeting
Speaker 7: was very very fortuitous for this, you know, for this case.
Speaker 8: Yeah, what Nancy Westfall Chase made such a strong impression
Speaker 8: on her has been very very weird, very weird. And
Speaker 8: when she learned that the murder of Teresa Wallen happened
Speaker 8: on Tioga Way on that Monday and it's directly behind
Speaker 8: the Pantry market that in conjunction with like the red parking,
Speaker 8: Chase acting weird for father said you've got to let
Speaker 8: them know about it. So that's how this came down.
Speaker 8: So it was really a stroke of luck because he
Speaker 8: had been able to elude police, and so we're looking
Speaker 8: at he's committed to the murders of the Moroth family
Speaker 8: on Friday, and then you know, it was like the
Speaker 8: next day when things really started to come together, and
Speaker 8: when Bill Roberts was trying to locate this person that
Speaker 8: he had an arrest record, and what was interesting to
Speaker 8: Roberts was is that he had the history of owning
Speaker 8: twenty two's playing two automatic pistols, and so that's exactly
Speaker 8: what was used in the murders. And of course, once
Speaker 8: they arrested Chase, then you know, they matched the gun
Speaker 8: immediately to all the murders. Plus there was a lot
Speaker 8: of forensic evidence. Of course, I mean, even if those
Speaker 8: to the time before the I mean there was stuff
Speaker 8: there of the babies and and there was plenty of
Speaker 8: evidence even beyond the twenty two. But when they caught
Speaker 8: Chase and they had the gun, it matched all all
Speaker 8: of the murders Teresa Wall and the you know Maroth
Speaker 8: family and Ambrose Griffin, which was really good.
Speaker 7: Well, it was very interesting and people could relate to
Speaker 7: it watching Criminal Minds too. Is that the the obviously
Speaker 7: the infamous Robert K. Wrestler and another gentleman were brought
Speaker 7: in to create a profile. How what profile did they
Speaker 7: create and how close were they went when once they
Speaker 7: did arrest Richard Chase to that profile.
Speaker 8: You know, I didn't deal a whole lot, you know
Speaker 8: with that? Uh. I think they gave a profile to
Speaker 8: be honest, the police, Uh, the the guys I dealt with,
Speaker 8: and the records that I located, they there wasn't a
Speaker 8: whole lot in there having to do with that. They
Speaker 8: already knew from the people on Bernice Avenue and who
Speaker 8: had seen Chase walking around for instance, they knew they
Speaker 8: were looking for a scraggly haired young man again with
Speaker 8: the orange parka but dirty and so I think I
Speaker 8: can't remember what the FBI, the like the evaluation that
Speaker 8: they did. But I can tell you from the records
Speaker 8: that the cops working these things, it had really happened
Speaker 8: very quickly. The two main murders, Wallin and the Marath
Speaker 8: happened all within the same week, and they were getting
Speaker 8: a lot of reports of what this strange person looked like.
Speaker 8: So I don't know, to be honest, how much the FBI,
Speaker 8: you know, reports helped them because there was so much
Speaker 8: going on with just the evidence coming in from the
Speaker 8: testimony from the people that saw him, like a lot
Speaker 8: of people's I think there was probably one, two, three,
Speaker 8: maybe three people on Tioga that saw him right before
Speaker 8: he killed.
Speaker 7: Yeah, based on face, so they got a good look
Speaker 7: at him. Yeah, they got a pretty good that's all
Speaker 7: the profile was. The profile was that he was scraggly thin,
Speaker 7: probably had a history of mental illness and drug use.
Speaker 7: So it was just a general profile anyway. It was
Speaker 7: really the like you say that the dogged police work. Basically, well,
Speaker 7: they got this and of course a disorganized killer too,
Speaker 7: that's you know, not as careful as he could be. Now,
Speaker 7: tell us about the the arrest and questioning of Richard Chase.
Speaker 8: Yes, the Chase was arrested by three detectives. They were
Speaker 8: all basically like you know, rookie detectives. It was Ken Baker,
Speaker 8: Bill Roberts, and Wayne Eery. And uh, Bill told me,
Speaker 8: and he also writes this in the book, he said
Speaker 8: that he had a really strong feeling that Chase was
Speaker 8: this guy, even before they were they they actually located him. Uh.
Speaker 8: Chase was arrested at the number fifteen apartment at Watt Avenue,
Speaker 8: and Ken Baker had called there and Chase had answered
Speaker 8: the phone. Ken Baker had acted like that he was, uh,
Speaker 8: you know, he had had some dealings with him, and
Speaker 8: Chase kind of got skittish about it and hung the
Speaker 8: phone up. So when they went to his apartment, they
Speaker 8: you know, he wouldn't answer the door, and so Bill
Speaker 8: Roberts went up to the manager's office to call while
Speaker 8: Ken Baker and Wayne Irie stayed there. Now, fortunately number
Speaker 8: fourteen apartment was vacant. They got the manager to open
Speaker 8: up and Ken went inside the next door apartment listen.
Speaker 8: They could hear movement inside. So while Roberts is still
Speaker 8: up there, Ken Baker and Wayne Irie made a pretense
Speaker 8: of leaving and they were talking kind of loudly that
Speaker 8: you know they would come back, Yeah, but they're actually hiding.
Speaker 8: Days comes out of his apartment with the box. He's
Speaker 8: got that twenty two and a holster and a jacket
Speaker 8: on so you can't see the gun. But he comes
Speaker 8: out and he's kind of and he turns to the
Speaker 8: right to go into the parking lot to get the ranchero,
Speaker 8: but he sees Wayne Irie two doors up or so,
Speaker 8: hugging a door. Wayne Irie sees him. He immediately steps
Speaker 8: out for a second, he's going to go back into
Speaker 8: his apartment, but he bolts the other way and he
Speaker 8: runs into Ken Baker. Ken Baker already got his forty
Speaker 8: five out, but Chase throws the box at him as
Speaker 8: he goes by. So Chase just just is trying to
Speaker 8: get by him, runs right into Baker. Baker hits him
Speaker 8: in the head with the forty five and there resting
Speaker 8: around on the ground, and by that time Wayne Irie
Speaker 8: has gotten up there, and they you know, they they're
Speaker 8: able to get this guy on the ground, and you
Speaker 8: know Iri was going to kill him. You know, he
Speaker 8: on a documentary he said, once you said, uh, we
Speaker 8: I already decided if the baby was there, I was
Speaker 8: gonna kill him, but he you know, he's just not
Speaker 8: you know, he's just not like that. He got up
Speaker 8: to Chase and he put the gun his gun, and
Speaker 8: Chase his fear or something told him, if he doesn't
Speaker 8: quit fighting, he's gonna blow his brains out. But Chase
Speaker 8: didn't stop. And that answer, Ari said, that's when you know,
Speaker 8: you know, we're not like these people. We're not cold
Speaker 8: blood murderers. So they finally subdued him. He had on him,
Speaker 8: Daniel Meredith Wallat and uh and and I think his
Speaker 8: keys as well. Now the keys, I think we're in
Speaker 8: the bot or know what. The baby he'd already discarded
Speaker 8: the baby by that church in between the church building
Speaker 8: and this other building, which they discovered later on. And uh,
Speaker 8: but anyway, so of course he's arrested. Everybody knows that
Speaker 8: this is the guy. Chase will not admit to anything
Speaker 8: but killing animals and killing uh you know, birds or
Speaker 8: dogs or whatever. He he won't admit to killing humans.
Speaker 8: His admissions to these things came later, of course, from
Speaker 8: all of that, came to psychiatric reports and uh, you know,
Speaker 8: all these many things, and they determined Chase was was
Speaker 8: you know, you know he was capable to stand trial.
Speaker 8: And uh so, uh you know, uh Ronald Docdorman was
Speaker 8: the main prosecutor's assistant, Al Loker. Al loc is a
Speaker 8: really nice guy. I didn't get to talk to talk
Speaker 8: to him, but I got to talk to Locer. He said,
Speaker 8: with Sacramento you know, uh, the the Sacramentary uh, Sacramento
Speaker 8: County Die's office. So he's still there. He's still in
Speaker 8: that office. Uh So they they they made a great
Speaker 8: case against Chase, and and and and document really knew
Speaker 8: how to to do this fair salomy. Uh yeah, a
Speaker 8: fair of salami, which is Chase his attorney. He this
Speaker 8: guy had an uphill battle all the way and he
Speaker 8: wanted to yeah, and you know, it was just it
Speaker 8: was just a foregone conclusion that was not gonna go
Speaker 8: his way. But he he worked hard and and uh
Speaker 8: I've spoken to Paris, you know, on the phone two
Speaker 8: or three times. He's he's a nice guy. But it
Speaker 8: was an uphill battle and he was hoping to save
Speaker 8: Chase from the death penalty, which of course he chased
Speaker 8: got the death penalty. But he took care of you know,
Speaker 8: you know things himself, and he ended up you know,
Speaker 8: killing himself in UH in San Quentin.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 8: It's called cheeking your meds. He had been saving up
Speaker 8: the medications. I always thought that Chase was trying to
Speaker 8: kill himself, but I talked to Al Loker and he said,
Speaker 8: I don't necessarily think so. And when Loker told me why,
Speaker 8: it really made sense. Loker said, you know, he was
Speaker 8: always thinking all this stuff was wrong with him. He
Speaker 8: he said, I think a lot of people seem to
Speaker 8: think that he was probably trying to save up all
Speaker 8: of this medication to take it one time, to really
Speaker 8: finally knock this stuff out in him. And of course
Speaker 8: he did cure himself, but not in the way he suspected,
Speaker 8: and he killed himself. But yeah, but he was strange.
Speaker 8: I mean, the doctors said to Chase once and said
Speaker 8: what are you thinking about right now? He said, normal things,
Speaker 8: And they said, well, what's on the screen in your mind?
Speaker 8: He said, oh, a seven forty seven jet liner blowing up.
Speaker 8: Just strange stuff, you know, just strange.
Speaker 7: You talk about the prosecution being deft and effective, really
Speaker 7: it comes to American law, and I mean even people
Speaker 7: that watch things like Law and Order, will they have
Speaker 7: gone over the subject of legally insane, tell us if
Speaker 7: if what I found interesting in your book too was
Speaker 7: the you know, it never came to me before at all.
Speaker 7: But with this is that when a person has this
Speaker 7: attempts and what other defense would you have but not
Speaker 7: criminally responsible by virtue of insanity and you know, insane.
Speaker 7: But the thing is is that you know, the planning,
Speaker 7: the evasion from from the authorities. But I thought another
Speaker 7: thing was too. Was there any talk of the sexual
Speaker 7: motivation being in another thing? To dismiss the notion that
Speaker 7: you know, he was insane and was was out of
Speaker 7: control and had no control of his behavior. Did that
Speaker 7: the sexual did that sexual motivation come into play at all? Terms?
Speaker 8: Well, you know, you know they they actually said that
Speaker 8: that you know, his his what he had done sexually.
Speaker 8: You know, big problem I think if if if I'm
Speaker 8: remembering correctly, was like a sexual sadist. I mean, they
Speaker 8: look at these things as being well, you know, he
Speaker 8: could be cruel, he could be various things. For the prosecution,
Speaker 8: the only thing they cared about was was Chase aware
Speaker 8: of what he was doing? Was he aware of right
Speaker 8: and wrong? And to the prosecution it didn't matter how
Speaker 8: cruel or evil. Richard Chase might be because a truly
Speaker 8: insane person will not try to cover their steps. You
Speaker 8: know that they might go out and commit mass murder,
Speaker 8: but they're making you know, I mean, they're just doing it.
Speaker 8: But Chase did try to conceal everything he was doing,
Speaker 8: and he showed some elements of skill at being able
Speaker 8: to do it because he didn't leave any fingerprints behind
Speaker 8: and he knew that the proper response when they asked him,
Speaker 8: did he do this? No, I would never do that,
Speaker 8: so he knew. So Chase was cruel. Chase was evil,
Speaker 8: Chase was diabolical, but he wasn't legally insane. And that's
Speaker 8: the only thing Doctorman wanted to drive home, and he did.
Speaker 8: He just did it wonderfully, and the jury bought it
Speaker 8: and they did not consider him insane. And so that's
Speaker 8: fright at the deathminality.
Speaker 7: Absolutely, yeah, it was. We didn't talk about this, but
Speaker 7: the authorities were really kind of spooked by the bloody
Speaker 7: ringlets that were left at the crime scenes.
Speaker 8: Yes, I have a photographed in my book. Yeah, and
Speaker 8: in fact, you can see a portion of the yogurt
Speaker 8: cup that he used. Yea and yeah, but yeah, the
Speaker 8: ringlets were from a I believe it was a green
Speaker 8: pale and they saw those ringlets twice and it's not them.
Speaker 8: I'm assuming that that's the same pale that he tried
Speaker 8: to discard. I won't say categorically. I'd have to ask
Speaker 8: Bill Roberts. But in the picture where there's a at
Speaker 8: his apartment, where there's the twenty two stal luger on
Speaker 8: that box, there's also a pale. There was a pale
Speaker 8: that that he had had there. That could be the
Speaker 8: very same pale. I'm just not certain, but that's what
Speaker 8: made those ringlets.
Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, it's uh, you know, you you had
Speaker 7: the I guess the good sense. I would have went
Speaker 7: into more description, but it is a Richard Chase humiliated,
Speaker 7: posed and displayed like again, for all those people that
Speaker 7: watch television and are aware of these terms, he is
Speaker 7: the worst of the worst in terms of it. Guess
Speaker 7: it looked like humiliating his his There was humiliation and
Speaker 7: the sadism, cruelty. Uh right, I mean, never mind, never
Speaker 7: mind lack of remorse. That's ridiculous. But you know, decapitating
Speaker 7: the baby's head. Yeah, it's just it's evil, that's all. Yeah.
Speaker 7: The best thing is just to choc it up to
Speaker 7: a whole lot of evil, uh, coming from this one eminem,
Speaker 7: from this one person that is spreading a lot of
Speaker 7: terror in that in that area for a short period
Speaker 7: of time.
Speaker 8: Thank god, Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank god. It was very short.
Speaker 8: But I mean, people were so upset they were buying weapons,
Speaker 8: and people that had weapons they were making sure they
Speaker 8: had enough ammunition. And it did cost a lot of
Speaker 8: people some sleepless nights and there were numerous investigators that
Speaker 8: just had nightmares about this stuff. You know, it was
Speaker 8: just real different than the average homicide. And it's a yeah.
Speaker 8: The picture of Evely and Morale, it's just it's never
Speaker 8: been really unfortunately, there's a picture of Teresa Wallen that
Speaker 8: has been released. Sometimes it shows up on the internet.
Speaker 8: I don't know how that happened, but it's it's been released.
Speaker 8: But most of the crime scene photographs, in fact, all
Speaker 8: of them, but that one picture has never been released.
Speaker 8: But it's it's gastly. And he had also stuffed dog
Speaker 8: feces in the mouth of Teresa Wallin and the investiators
Speaker 8: for Scott that they weren't sure what that was. But
Speaker 8: he's just very very evil, very diabolical person, but legally saying.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, and incredible, And it's hard for people to
Speaker 7: fathom that that definition legally insane. And so the only
Speaker 7: thing you can really chalk it up to is evil.
Speaker 8: We would say he's nuts, he's gotta be, but not really,
Speaker 8: he's just and you know what that gets into a
Speaker 8: whole nother question. How do people get that way? How
Speaker 8: do they get to where they are so diabolical? You know,
Speaker 8: it's just very strange. It's it's very odd that some
Speaker 8: humans sometimes become predators in this way. You know, Theodore Bunn,
Speaker 8: he would also remove heads, He would do things that
Speaker 8: were ghastly and diabolical. But as to his person and
Speaker 8: outward appearance, they're like night and day. You never know
Speaker 8: anything that's wrong with Ted Bundy if you you know,
Speaker 8: but Chase, take one look at him. The guy's whacked.
Speaker 8: I mean, that's that's your first impression of him.
Speaker 7: Well, I mean one is one is a bit scarier
Speaker 7: than the other. Bundy is scarier than Richard Chase, and
Speaker 7: only that. It's like a Hannibal Lecter is scarier than
Speaker 7: Richard Chasing. That they're cognizant of what they're doing. It's
Speaker 7: like a dexter. So, but you know, the thing is,
Speaker 7: the thing is how many true crime books I've read,
Speaker 7: you've read, how many stories that I've read. There is
Speaker 7: really no answer how people can become like that. The
Speaker 7: only thing I can you know, it's an oversimplification, is
Speaker 7: that it's this legion of thrill killers. And now you're
Speaker 7: adding the allure of fame and infamy and stardom and
Speaker 7: to a certain extent like Luca Manata, and what you
Speaker 7: have is combination of that phenomena in society anyway, totally
Speaker 7: over the top in terms of exaggeration, and these people
Speaker 7: doing again a crime that shocks the world, that's what
Speaker 7: they're interested in doing. So you know that that that
Speaker 7: is horrifying for people in fiction, let alone to realize
Speaker 7: in true life. But I don't think anybody could ever
Speaker 7: say anything other than these people, to a certain degree,
Speaker 7: to a great degree, want to do the very very taboo,
Speaker 7: to experience what no one in what we would think
Speaker 7: in their right mind would want to experience. Yeah, And
Speaker 7: the only thing I can come up with.
Speaker 8: Yeah, And that's one of the reasons why people read
Speaker 8: about this stuff, because it's so set apart from normal
Speaker 8: life it's hard to believe that this sort of thing
Speaker 8: can actually occur, And so it's it interests people because
Speaker 8: it's like peering into another world, a world that you're
Speaker 8: never going to walk in, and you think, and you
Speaker 8: stand back from me, go, how can somebody be like that?
Speaker 8: And yet there are predators out there that are like that.
Speaker 8: And of course the Bundies and the Chases, they're just
Speaker 8: they're just the worst of the whole breed. And and
Speaker 8: like I say, they're rare when they become I think
Speaker 8: when they become that diabolical. You have a lot of
Speaker 8: mean people in the world, but the killers in prison
Speaker 8: when when Chase was in jail, some of these people
Speaker 8: who had committed murder were complaining that they can't sleep
Speaker 8: because of what Chase had done and that him being
Speaker 8: there and they're thinking about it. Can you imagine that
Speaker 8: these were just regular killers?
Speaker 7: I mean, yeare through.
Speaker 8: They wouldn't do that, They wouldn't do those things.
Speaker 7: Well, I guess they got what they deserved, huh to
Speaker 7: be they shot they Well, they had.
Speaker 8: To move Chase into a single cell uh in the
Speaker 8: ajail because it was just getting out of hand. They
Speaker 8: were throwing urine on him and passing down the cups
Speaker 8: and in the cell, and so they had to isolate him.
Speaker 8: But you know that's really the way it is.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, it's it's just it's it's again, it's always
Speaker 7: almost always, unlike criminal minds where people are saved. Uh,
Speaker 7: this just leaves a trail of carnage and and you know, broken,
Speaker 7: broken lives basically and not much, not much answer.
Speaker 8: And I think that's what it is.
Speaker 7: It's very much like the I think it's a new
Speaker 7: genre of a true horror in that nothing can compare
Speaker 7: with this because it is true. It is more horrifying,
Speaker 7: and there is no neat clean answers. Oh jeezus, you know,
Speaker 7: mentally ill. No, they're they're in between, certainly, just inhuman behavior.
Speaker 8: Right, absolutely, the most diabolical expression of what a human
Speaker 8: can do. It's just it's ghastly because you know, if
Speaker 8: you get into things that the Nazis did, it's always
Speaker 8: been hard for me to believe that people in Nazi
Speaker 8: Germany and in the thirties and then into the forties
Speaker 8: could do as a country the kind of things that
Speaker 8: they did, more organized, but just as diabolical. But here
Speaker 8: you've got someone that like Chase or something that just
Speaker 8: you know, coming into people's homes in broad daylight, very
Speaker 8: random and then just extremely lethal and completely diabolical, just
Speaker 8: very strange.
Speaker 7: I think one thing for the citizens of California to realize,
Speaker 7: and it's obviously a huge state, and then a lot
Speaker 7: of people and this we're talking about the seventies and
Speaker 7: the eighties where people didn't lock their doors and all
Speaker 7: kinds of other silly behavior. But deez, there's a lot
Speaker 7: of murders from people like Richard Chase and the Nightstalker
Speaker 7: and all kinds of people where they just left their
Speaker 7: windows open. You can't leave your windows open.
Speaker 8: No, you can't leave your doors un locked or your
Speaker 8: windows open. I have been saying this for years. I mean,
Speaker 8: you just can't do it.
Speaker 7: Once in a lifetime, but you.
Speaker 8: Know, you just you can't take the chance.
Speaker 7: Absolutely absolutely. Now you have this coming. This is released
Speaker 7: as an e book right now, and you had said,
Speaker 7: so it's available right now.
Speaker 8: A Vampire that.
Speaker 7: Richard Chase murders. Okay, great, and yeah, you've got it
Speaker 7: one of the new hot new releases on Amazon. So
Speaker 7: that's very interesting. And I'm sure with all of the
Speaker 7: hoopla over vampires, And I mean there's never been a
Speaker 7: time where there since when we were kids in the seventies,
Speaker 7: where there's been so much emphasis on vampires and draculas
Speaker 7: and stories like this. So this is perfect timing. This
Speaker 7: is the case that. Yeah, and this case was not
Speaker 7: that well known. It really some reason it's not as
Speaker 7: well known as it's one of the most over the top, bizarre,
Speaker 7: fascinating cases too. That because like you say, they didn't
Speaker 7: know who who was behind these uh murders, and it
Speaker 7: really was like a case of criminal minds where they
Speaker 7: they know they only have so much time because this
Speaker 7: this seemingly evil person with no leads, no motive, is
Speaker 7: striking and and then striking again. So yeah, it was
Speaker 7: a really great book.
Speaker 8: Well, thank you so much. I appreciate that, Dan. It's
Speaker 8: a I knew from the moment I decided to write
Speaker 8: and it was going to be good. And once I
Speaker 8: went to Sacramento and uh look, went over all these
Speaker 8: areas and and got into the case file, I thought, yeah,
Speaker 8: it's it's going to be an interesting book.
Speaker 7: So you know, I was quite absolutely, Yeah, you've done
Speaker 7: a great job. And it's another really stow binding story too,
Speaker 7: and I and you know, it's a it's interesting because
Speaker 7: I knew of the case, but reading all the detail,
Speaker 7: it's it's just a horrifying You really bring the reader
Speaker 7: into the horror of what they find in these homes
Speaker 7: and right, uh yeah, it's it's just it's incredible. The
Speaker 7: terror is really uh you've captured that, and I think
Speaker 7: that's what people will come away with, is uh Again,
Speaker 7: the good old days weren't all that good either, so
Speaker 7: there's uh, we've got Yeah.
Speaker 8: I think it's beneficial for people to remember what humans
Speaker 8: are capable of. And you know, it's just if it's
Speaker 8: happened and it's a part of our history, it needs
Speaker 8: to be known and it needs to be remembered. And
Speaker 8: uh yeah, it's just you know, just people need to
Speaker 8: understand that certain people are very evil and and and
Speaker 8: they'll do some very horrible things. And there's been a
Speaker 8: lot of people that have done horrible things to other people,
Speaker 8: to innocent people, and it's just it's it's a reminder
Speaker 8: to us.
Speaker 4: All.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 7: It's just interesting though though the citizens that were that
Speaker 7: were you know, that were cognizant of what happened and
Speaker 7: made the effort to contact We've heard horror stories of
Speaker 7: people contacting authorities and those people being ignored. In this case,
Speaker 7: we have, you know, police worked that is very effective
Speaker 7: and so you know, relatively relatively, this could have gone
Speaker 7: on for years as many of these kinds of serial
Speaker 7: killer as this guy absolutely had the potential. If this
Speaker 7: is what he escalated to in a short period of
Speaker 7: time in a few months, my god, who knows?
Speaker 8: I mean and say in the book that I say.
Speaker 8: The one thing the police had going for them is
Speaker 8: that even though Chase was trying to be careful, he
Speaker 8: was still a disorganized killer. He didn't clean himself up
Speaker 8: very well. He was very weird, and he was killing
Speaker 8: in a geographically small area. So there were some things
Speaker 8: that were working against him. But had he not stopped
Speaker 8: and talked to Nancy Holten that day, I'm sure Chase
Speaker 8: would have killed again. He would have wiped out another
Speaker 8: family or something, but he would have eventually been caught.
Speaker 8: I don't think he'd lasted as long as as like
Speaker 8: Ted Bundy, but they were so no, it just no,
Speaker 8: but it's just uh, yeah, you could almost mark it down.
Speaker 8: If it wouldn't be for that chance meeting, he would
Speaker 8: have killed again.
Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely, and we don't know how fast they would have.
Speaker 7: You know, he was leaving evidence behind. But like you say,
Speaker 7: it was it was also the time before DNA, and
Speaker 7: so whether he's you're urinating in a in a in
Speaker 7: some baby clothing and defecating, I mean, sure day in
Speaker 7: the DNA, but nobody even heard the term DNA so
Speaker 7: and they certainly were many years away from utilizing it.
Speaker 8: So absolutely yes.
Speaker 7: Anyway, Kevin, I want to thank you very much for
Speaker 7: those listening. You've been listening to Vampire the Richard Chase
Speaker 7: Murders by Kevin M. Sullivan. Thank you very much for
Speaker 7: Kevin and uh a great book, great great idea for
Speaker 7: a book, And thank you very much.
Speaker 6: For this interview.
Speaker 8: Thanks Dan, talk to you next time.
Speaker 7: Okay, good night, Kevin, thank you