WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:02.720 Hudson River Radio dot com. 2 00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:06.000 It beats listening to nothingness. 3 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:11.919 Being Frank fright. We're the only way to be is Frank. 4 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:16.879 Bellow everyone, and welcome to being Frank. We're the only 5 00:00:16.920 --> 00:00:20.839 way to be is well, Frank. I'm your host, Frankleburn, 6 00:00:20.920 --> 00:00:22.760 and I'd like to thank you for joining us on 7 00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:27.440 what we like to call the Intelligent Conversation podcast, where 8 00:00:27.480 --> 00:00:30.839 no conversations out of bounds in all points of view 9 00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:33.840 are welcome. You know, we record live to tape, but 10 00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:36.520 I give you the date for context and relevance. It's 11 00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:39.520 the first of April, April Fool's Day, but we will 12 00:00:39.560 --> 00:00:42.079 not be fooling with our conversation today. We've got a 13 00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:45.240 great one lined up for you. You know, I feel 14 00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:48.240 it fair to say that most Americans are feeling apprehensive 15 00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:51.960 about the future of this country. The economy lies mostly 16 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:57.039 in tatters, with the cost of living escalating at unmanageable prices. 17 00:00:57.799 --> 00:01:01.240 We're also involved in an unpopular war with no defined 18 00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:05.359 ending in sight. President Trump and his administration seem hell 19 00:01:05.439 --> 00:01:10.599 bent in defining America in their terms, regardless of the consequences, 20 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:13.480 and perhaps no one is feeling the pain more than 21 00:01:13.560 --> 00:01:19.879 the LGBTQ plus community, and particularly transfolk. The administration's assault 22 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:23.239 on diversity, equity, and inclusion is a direct attack on 23 00:01:23.319 --> 00:01:26.359 people whose only crime is to live their authentic cells. 24 00:01:27.000 --> 00:01:31.239 Their policies will erase years of gains earned through blood, sweat, 25 00:01:31.239 --> 00:01:35.519 and tears. That's why celebrating the Transgender Day of Visibility 26 00:01:35.719 --> 00:01:39.920 yesterday on March thirty first, has become more important than ever. 27 00:01:40.400 --> 00:01:43.239 These people are family and friends and deserve the respect 28 00:01:43.359 --> 00:01:47.040 any one of us deserves and demands as we all do. 29 00:01:47.079 --> 00:01:50.760 They have stories to tell of their life's journeys, and 30 00:01:50.840 --> 00:01:54.079 here to share. Her most unique and interesting life is 31 00:01:54.159 --> 00:01:57.120 my friend, Abby Cohen. She grew up as a boy 32 00:01:57.120 --> 00:01:59.519 in a small town in the Texas Panhandle in a 33 00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:03.519 nineteen sixties. After graduating from high school, she came to 34 00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:08.000 New York City to study at Columbia University. Distracted by 35 00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:12.319 her emerging gender identity issues, she dropped out of college 36 00:02:12.400 --> 00:02:17.000 and moved into an SRO Residency hotel on West one 37 00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:20.360 hundred and twelfth Street. While working as a desk clerk 38 00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:23.879 in the hotel, Abby began living full time as a 39 00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:27.319 woman on January first, nineteen eighty, at the age of 40 00:02:27.360 --> 00:02:31.080 twenty six. When the hotel closed, she found a job 41 00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:34.639 as a word processing trainee in the Central Office of 42 00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:38.199 the City University of New York. In March of nineteen 43 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:41.759 eighty eight, she was interviewed by Rafael Pineda on Univision, 44 00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:45.879 a week before her sex reassignment surgery was performed by 45 00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:51.159 doctor Roberto Granato at Physicians Hospital in Queen's This television 46 00:02:51.159 --> 00:02:54.639 appearance caused quite a stir among colleagues who had always 47 00:02:54.680 --> 00:02:57.439 known her as a woman. Abby would earn a BA 48 00:02:57.520 --> 00:02:59.719 degree from Hunter College, and by the end of her 49 00:02:59.759 --> 00:03:03.680 career as a database designer, she would become the administrative 50 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:08.039 equivalent of a full professor. Upon her retirement from Cuney, 51 00:03:08.479 --> 00:03:13.360 Abby opened the Coat of Many Colors bookstore in Nayak, 52 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:17.879 declaring the venture a cultural success but a financial failure. 53 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:22.120 She closed the bookstore after eighteen months of operation. Abby 54 00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:26.719 is currently writing a memoir and learning to draw. Welcome, Abbe. 55 00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:29.639 I really want to thank you for joining us today. 56 00:03:29.719 --> 00:03:31.479 And thank you so much for inviting me. 57 00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:35.680 You know, there's so much to be said, so much 58 00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:38.960 to talk about. You write frequently on social media, and 59 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:42.840 your posts are well read, so well written, and so interesting, 60 00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:48.080 and I you know, in some ways have meant led 61 00:03:48.439 --> 00:03:52.719 an eventful life, but sometimes in comparison to yours, I 62 00:03:52.800 --> 00:03:55.639 look and I say, those are real life events, and 63 00:03:55.639 --> 00:03:57.159 I want to talk a little bit about them today, 64 00:03:57.199 --> 00:03:59.000 and I really want to thank you for sharing them 65 00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:00.199 with us. 66 00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:01.159 Thank you. 67 00:04:02.080 --> 00:04:04.840 All right, Let's go back to the beginning. Let's talk 68 00:04:04.879 --> 00:04:08.199 about the beginning. Your life as a boy in Texas. 69 00:04:08.199 --> 00:04:09.199 Tell us a little bit about that. 70 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:14.360 Well. I grew up in Panhandle, Texas. It's a small 71 00:04:14.360 --> 00:04:19.120 town about thirty miles northeast of Amarello in the Texas Panhandle. 72 00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:19.279 And. 73 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:25.279 My mother moved there when I was one year old 74 00:04:26.519 --> 00:04:28.920 to get a job as a gym teacher in high school, 75 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:33.680 and a couple of years later she remarried. I was 76 00:04:34.639 --> 00:04:38.800 not close to my stepfather, but there was a couple, 77 00:04:38.839 --> 00:04:42.879 a childless couple who were like godparents to me, Smokey 78 00:04:43.000 --> 00:04:48.800 and Emily. Smokey was a real man's man. He gave 79 00:04:48.879 --> 00:04:52.680 me a bb gun for my birthday one year. Emily, 80 00:04:53.879 --> 00:04:55.720 although she grew up there, she had lived in New 81 00:04:55.800 --> 00:05:00.439 York City during the twenty She was a flapper. Emily 82 00:05:00.560 --> 00:05:04.199 got me tap dancing lessons. So maybe Emily saw that 83 00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:07.800 maybe I was a different kind of boy than other boys, 84 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:08.959 So that was it. 85 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:15.399 Well, would you say your childhood was standard in a sense, 86 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:18.240 especially as a boy at that time, things like boy 87 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:22.079 scout sports, et cetera. Did they play any role in 88 00:05:22.120 --> 00:05:23.480 your life at that time? 89 00:05:24.279 --> 00:05:24.519 Well? 90 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:33.000 Absolutely say maybe a little background. Christine Jorgensen, she was 91 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:36.959 the first famous transgender person, and she wrote in her 92 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:41.279 memoir that when she was four years old, she was 93 00:05:41.319 --> 00:05:45.000 so disappointed that she got a red firetruck for Christmas 94 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:48.399 instead of adult which she really wanted. So that's become 95 00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:51.680 part of the narrative that was kind of standard for 96 00:05:51.759 --> 00:05:56.360 transgender people, and that goes back to Harry Benjamin, the 97 00:05:56.399 --> 00:06:00.439 so called father of transgenderism. He was a sex allegists 98 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:04.480 from Germany who came to this country and he came 99 00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:09.040 up with this diagnos differential diagnosis that there are the 100 00:06:09.079 --> 00:06:13.160 fetishes who get excited by ladies underwear, There are the 101 00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:16.319 transvestites who are attracted to women that like to wear 102 00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:20.000 women's clothes. There are drag queens who are attracted to 103 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:23.199 men that also like to wear women's clothes, and then 104 00:06:23.240 --> 00:06:27.879 there are the true transsexuals. And they fit a very 105 00:06:27.879 --> 00:06:31.639 specific profile and including this profile was the idea that 106 00:06:31.720 --> 00:06:34.360 this was something somebody was aware of all their life, 107 00:06:34.360 --> 00:06:39.800 from the very beginning. And so of course people seeking 108 00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:44.639 medical transition they read his book, and so they began 109 00:06:44.720 --> 00:06:48.680 to tailor their stories to meet the diagnosis. So I'm 110 00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:51.800 not saying that these stories aren't true for some people, 111 00:06:51.839 --> 00:06:54.600 but they weren't for me. And what this really comes 112 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:57.680 down to is the question of whether or not gender 113 00:06:57.800 --> 00:07:03.160 is something a person is born with. And uh yeah, 114 00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:08.480 and that's uh so, I certainly, But I had an 115 00:07:08.519 --> 00:07:11.120 identity as a boy. Very much as a boy. My 116 00:07:11.319 --> 00:07:16.120 hero was Fest Parker as David Crockett, I mean, but 117 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:18.639 kind of things that attracted me to him, as you know, 118 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:22.800 he was He was honest, he didn't want to break 119 00:07:22.839 --> 00:07:25.480 the deal with the Cherokees, who lost his seat for that. 120 00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:29.959 He was helpful in the riverboat episode. He rescued that 121 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:34.439 guy and his animals that were stranded on an island, 122 00:07:34.839 --> 00:07:36.879 you know, and then that guy showed him the short cuts. 123 00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:39.040 So it's kind of where I got this idea that 124 00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:42.720 what goes around comes around, and so yeah, and I 125 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:45.000 was in Boy Scouts. I took it very seriously. I 126 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:48.600 managed my imagine myself being Davy Crockett or Daniel Boone 127 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:51.199 in the wilderness. So it wasn't until I was in 128 00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:53.680 third grade that things changed. 129 00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:59.680 Tell us about that. Was there an epiphany moment? Abby? 130 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:03.639 Was Was it a more gradual thing that came upon 131 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:07.199 you or was there a single episode or thought a 132 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:11.519 moment that made you connect if you will, if that 133 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:12.319 makes sense to you. 134 00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:16.160 Not really, I mean, I guess maybe part of it 135 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:20.120 is we didn't have language for it back then. So 136 00:08:20.439 --> 00:08:23.639 now third grade, third grade, I started being teased by 137 00:08:23.639 --> 00:08:28.720 the boys, the other boys, and because I cried easily, 138 00:08:29.399 --> 00:08:31.920 and they had these hand gestures and they would do 139 00:08:32.039 --> 00:08:33.600 them and I didn't know what they meant, and I 140 00:08:33.639 --> 00:08:35.840 would start crying and I just thought it was so funny, 141 00:08:36.279 --> 00:08:37.960 you know, And they called me a sissy, so I 142 00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:42.960 guess I was a sissy boy. And that didn't what's 143 00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:45.279 kind of funny, is yeah, my response to that sort 144 00:08:45.320 --> 00:08:48.559 of thing was to cry. But I tried to do 145 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:51.200 the boy things. I went out for Little League baseball. 146 00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:53.600 And then when I was in fourth grade, there was 147 00:08:53.639 --> 00:08:56.200 this boy who was teasing me because I closed my 148 00:08:56.279 --> 00:08:58.679 eyes when I was trying to catch a fly, and 149 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:01.919 I got so angry that I charged him, and he 150 00:09:02.039 --> 00:09:04.639 was like the biggest kidney class and he just pushed 151 00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:09.080 me aside into this thing holding up the swing set, 152 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:11.159 and I got a black eye. So that was kind 153 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:14.759 of my little purple badge of courage because I acted 154 00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:18.320 like a boy was supposed to act with violence and anger, 155 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:24.000 you know, instead of fear and crying and so but no, 156 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:32.519 so I I in high school, my mother left my stepfather. 157 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:35.919 I went to a much larger high school, larger town, 158 00:09:36.120 --> 00:09:38.159 and kind of had a chance to start over. And 159 00:09:38.200 --> 00:09:40.720 I reinvented myself as a hippie. And it was very 160 00:09:40.759 --> 00:09:43.519 important for me to grow my hair long, even like 161 00:09:44.279 --> 00:09:47.000 had a petition, you know, got signatures, went to the 162 00:09:47.000 --> 00:09:49.919 school board. It was like really really important for me 163 00:09:49.960 --> 00:09:52.639 to grow my hair long. And I wore the hippie clothes, 164 00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:55.360 you know, like the Jimmy Hendrick shirts, that sort of thing. 165 00:09:56.399 --> 00:09:58.799 A lot of people assumed I was gay, but I 166 00:09:58.919 --> 00:10:01.600 like girls, so I knew I wasn't gay, but I 167 00:10:01.639 --> 00:10:05.639 didn't know what I was. There was maybe one episode 168 00:10:07.039 --> 00:10:13.600 when I was ten eleven, previewbescent. I would dress up 169 00:10:13.639 --> 00:10:18.919 on my mother's clothes and because my stepdad would take 170 00:10:19.200 --> 00:10:21.120 everybody else for a ride, in the country and I 171 00:10:21.159 --> 00:10:26.159 got to stay home, so I don't. I mean, yes, 172 00:10:27.039 --> 00:10:30.480 her girl, her stockings, her dress, sometimes put her makeup 173 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:32.519 on the mirror, and I would just stare in the mirror. 174 00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:35.639 I was looking for something. I guess I wanted to 175 00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:37.480 know what it felt like to be in my mother's skin, 176 00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:40.080 and I was looking in the mirror. I was looking 177 00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:41.600 for something, but I didn't know what it was. 178 00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:46.440 If you couldn't, I might be retorting. How did it 179 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:49.440 make you feel when you saw yourself? That? Was there? 180 00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:53.879 A sense of satisfaction, confusedness, This is where I need 181 00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:55.879 to be, this is where I want to be. Maybe 182 00:10:55.879 --> 00:10:59.080 I shouldn't guilt. I mean, it must have been a 183 00:10:59.399 --> 00:11:00.600 huge range of emotion. 184 00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:02.159 Yeah, I was. 185 00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:04.840 Mostly it felt queer. I mean not in the old 186 00:11:04.840 --> 00:11:06.639 fashioned sense of the word, not in the sense of 187 00:11:06.639 --> 00:11:10.440 the LGBTQ word. But it just felt I guess, a 188 00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:13.080 little bit, a little bit of elation. But it was 189 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:16.759 just yeah, it was just it's very hard to define. 190 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:20.200 Interesting, was just incredible. 191 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:23.480 So it wasn't really until I was in college and 192 00:11:23.519 --> 00:11:26.840 I had a steady girlfriend that I began to understand. 193 00:11:27.519 --> 00:11:30.799 Well, explain that, how did how did that turn? And 194 00:11:30.879 --> 00:11:34.840 the fact now you're older, you're more mature your relationship, 195 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:38.480 uh head of sexualiz whme, you're still a man at 196 00:11:38.480 --> 00:11:41.840 this point or seen as such with a relationship with 197 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:44.679 a woman. How did that start to change your head 198 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:45.360 if you could? 199 00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:51.639 Well, I mean in high school I had a few 200 00:11:51.720 --> 00:11:54.480 hit and runs, you know, as the battle of cars 201 00:11:54.519 --> 00:11:58.279 like boys do. But it wasn't until my sophomore year 202 00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:01.799 in high school, I mean college, excuse me, Columbia, that 203 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:04.840 I had a steady girlfriend and it was a lot 204 00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:11.639 of fun at first, and I would think, and I became, 205 00:12:12.039 --> 00:12:15.000 you know, more acquainted with female anatomy than I had 206 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:19.519 been before you close, And I think what really ruined 207 00:12:19.559 --> 00:12:21.919 it was that she got birth controls, she went on 208 00:12:21.960 --> 00:12:25.360 the pill. And so before that we you know, we 209 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:27.039 were I guess what you call it petting whatever. 210 00:12:27.159 --> 00:12:27.360 You know. 211 00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:31.639 It's when we started really having heterosexual intercourse that I thought, no, 212 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:35.639 this doesn't feel right, this is not me. I would 213 00:12:35.720 --> 00:12:39.360 you know, I want to be her and uh yeah, 214 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:42.679 so I know that may sound a little pervy, but yeah, 215 00:12:42.679 --> 00:12:43.960 that's that's when I began. 216 00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:47.519 Think at all. I think it's very interesting to I have. 217 00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:50.879 I worked with a friend who came out years after 218 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:54.440 after relationships with women and had a similar experience. At 219 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:56.039 one point you said, this is just not right to 220 00:12:56.240 --> 00:12:56.720 feel right. 221 00:12:57.639 --> 00:13:00.440 Yeah, so one time I yeah, so, I know, when 222 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:03.200 I was breaking up with her, I had this thing 223 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:05.519 with the guy. Took me down to the village, took 224 00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:09.559 me to the ninth circle, to the anvil, you know, 225 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:12.799 trying to give me an idea of that community and 226 00:13:12.840 --> 00:13:15.919 trying to find, you know, my taste level. And spent 227 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:18.519 a night night with him. But that didn't feel right either. 228 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:20.960 I mean, the syntax wasn't right. It was like a 229 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:23.639 double negative. It just I knew it was not a 230 00:13:23.679 --> 00:13:26.679 gay man. You know. 231 00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:31.639 You mentioned that terminology and how it's more often changed 232 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:37.159 through the years, and the what is the importance of terminology, 233 00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:40.919 you know, calling people, defining them, I guess in the 234 00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:43.639 sense or lack of a better word or concept. But 235 00:13:44.279 --> 00:13:47.759 how important is we used to say transvestites, for example, 236 00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:52.440 is not used anymore. Transsexual has changed, even the LGBTQ 237 00:13:52.679 --> 00:13:56.320 adds more letters, et cetera. So it's an evolving thing. 238 00:13:57.480 --> 00:14:00.799 So how important is the terminology? To understand? 239 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:07.519 It's basically all political. It's and again it goes back 240 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:10.279 to this thing I brought up. I mean, are we 241 00:14:10.440 --> 00:14:15.440 born with a gender or are we like, do we 242 00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:19.399 get a gender? And if we develop a gender, you know, 243 00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:22.279 can that gender be changed? You know? I mean gender 244 00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:25.840 is a gender is a cultural artifact. I mean, it's 245 00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:27.720 kind of like a language, like I was. I was 246 00:14:27.799 --> 00:14:30.720 very effeminate. I mean, and I don't know. People are 247 00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:34.480 born with a capacity for language, and there are different languages. 248 00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:38.320 Maybe people are born for capacity for gender, but that 249 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:41.799 people are born with a specific gender and whether or 250 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:46.600 not it should match match their you know, a sex 251 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:49.399 assigned at birth, as it said, Now we don't see 252 00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:52.159 so it's so so the thing is so transsexual is 253 00:14:52.200 --> 00:14:56.600 out of vogue now. I mean I still identify as 254 00:14:56.600 --> 00:15:00.799 a transsexual. And I think that's largely because we don't 255 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:03.679 want to privilege people who have had so called bottom surgery. 256 00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:08.720 That somehow people like me aren't more real women than 257 00:15:08.759 --> 00:15:11.919 people who than trans women who don't want bottom surgery, 258 00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:15.559 which is certainly true. I mean, surgery in itself isn't 259 00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:18.799 something that makes anybody more or less a woman. Okay, 260 00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:22.759 so we have transsexual, we have transgender. We now have 261 00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:27.000 so called biological sex, which was being mentioned. You know 262 00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:30.240 by the people in this anti trans rhetoric, you know 263 00:15:30.279 --> 00:15:34.120 that we shouldn't have biological males in the ladies room. 264 00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:36.759 You know. Of course, the problem with that is there's 265 00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:42.399 no standard definition for biological sex. I mean, are you 266 00:15:42.440 --> 00:15:46.399 talking about someone's chrominols, chromosomes? Are you talking about someone's 267 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:49.519 hormone levels? Are you talking about their gonuts? You know 268 00:15:49.559 --> 00:15:53.879 they're reproductive organs? Are you talking about secondary sexual characteristics? 269 00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:56.960 And I'm kind of skipping ahead here, but that's one 270 00:15:57.000 --> 00:16:00.720 of the I guess, real ironies that they that they're 271 00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:05.480 changing the rules for the International Olympic Committee that women 272 00:16:05.559 --> 00:16:08.440 have to be tested now, I mean, people have forgotten 273 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:10.799 that they did that because people were suspected that the 274 00:16:10.840 --> 00:16:14.799 East Germans were entering men to compete in women's supports. 275 00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:17.039 It's a big deal. People forget that it was a 276 00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:18.080 big deal, yes. 277 00:16:17.960 --> 00:16:19.879 And then what they found out a lot of women 278 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:23.039 found out, oh no, they were not genetically female. So 279 00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:25.840 I find it's interesting at least the language and these 280 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:30.120 things has changed in terms of the executive orders. Instead 281 00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:34.039 of saying biological sex, they're now saying the sex on 282 00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:37.399 the birth certificate, which in the parlance, so the queer 283 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:42.480 community is sex assigned at birth as opposed to yeah, 284 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:47.360 and people who people who want to live socially different 285 00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:51.600 than the sex that were assigned at birth are called transgender, 286 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:55.759 and people who live in the gender associated with the 287 00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:58.960 sex assigned at birth are called cis gender. But you know, 288 00:16:59.080 --> 00:17:03.120 some people you know don't like being called cis gender. 289 00:17:03.159 --> 00:17:06.000 They consider it a slur. But you know, it's it's 290 00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:10.319 just like, you know, it's just like you know a 291 00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:13.240 lot of times says you know, who was that person 292 00:17:13.240 --> 00:17:15.000 you know who is a person in college and says, oh, 293 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:17.240 that's a black person. If you don't say it's a 294 00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:19.920 black person, I assume it's a white person. So I 295 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:25.279 mean SIS people don't like sis genders because they like 296 00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:27.519 cis gender should be the default for what a real 297 00:17:27.559 --> 00:17:31.400 gender is. Right, Sorry, I. 298 00:17:31.400 --> 00:17:35.039 Don't know, this is just I'm just fascinating. I always, 299 00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:36.759 as I said, I love your writing. I love the 300 00:17:36.759 --> 00:17:40.480 fact that you share so honestly helps people to understand, 301 00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:44.880 and that's I think what is ultimately most important, certainly 302 00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:48.160 in any discussion to come to an understanding. You know, 303 00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:51.799 you mentioned and we mentioned it also in the intro. 304 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:57.240 You did go through sexual reassignment surgery without no no, 305 00:17:57.319 --> 00:18:01.279 I'm looking details. But beyond the physical, how did it 306 00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:04.640 change you? Did it change you? And if so, in 307 00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:05.799 what ways. 308 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:13.000 I can I I mean the standard answers. I felt 309 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:17.640 like my real self. That's not your words. And I 310 00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:25.079 like to say that I did this little would it's 311 00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:27.519 little performance piece where I said I went from the 312 00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:33.519 imaginary vagina to the frank concon vagina. So I think 313 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:38.440 people forget that with puberty there are radical changes that 314 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:43.519 happen in the body. But they don't happen overnight. They 315 00:18:43.559 --> 00:18:47.000 happen gradually. And also they're happening to everybody in your 316 00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:50.160 peer class at the same time, so there's a lot 317 00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:54.799 of support for that. I would say it was it 318 00:18:54.839 --> 00:18:59.319 was a radical physical change, and it wasn't like anything 319 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:05.839 I imagined, I would say, And I would say that, 320 00:19:05.960 --> 00:19:10.519 I mean I didn't I mean I didn't regret losing 321 00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:12.799 a penis. I mean there was no phantom limb or 322 00:19:12.839 --> 00:19:15.319 anything like that. I didn't have any dreams about it. 323 00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:23.559 But I would say that my vagina did not become 324 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:28.160 real to me until I had sexual relations with a 325 00:19:28.200 --> 00:19:32.200 man who accepted me as a woman unconditionally. I mean 326 00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:35.680 so this is before we got this is one of 327 00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:38.240 the points I wanted to make in this podcast is 328 00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:45.039 besides being an identity and a language, gender is also 329 00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:50.000 a social relationship that you know, how we respond to 330 00:19:50.039 --> 00:19:53.720 people depends upon how we perceive their gender, you know. 331 00:19:54.039 --> 00:19:58.319 And again going back to the racial comparison, sometimes you 332 00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:02.119 see someone you say, this is African American? Are they Hispanic? 333 00:20:02.319 --> 00:20:06.839 Are the East Indian? I'm not sure. Ambiguity, you know, 334 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:09.680 and these so called physical traits, which are you know, 335 00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:13.200 kind of superfluous. It's just culturally they mean something because 336 00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:16.079 of our history, because you know, you know, the history 337 00:20:16.119 --> 00:20:19.920 of slavery, the history of the of the genocide of 338 00:20:19.960 --> 00:20:23.400 American Indians, or the history of imperialism, you know, the 339 00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:27.039 British Empire. You know, that's why these you know, these 340 00:20:27.079 --> 00:20:30.079 so called races or ethnicities means something, you know. But 341 00:20:30.119 --> 00:20:32.400 it's the same with men and women. I mean, the 342 00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:36.559 way that we respond to people depends upon the way 343 00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:43.119 we gender them. And so I would say my feeling 344 00:20:43.319 --> 00:20:47.279 is I didn't become a woman until people began treating 345 00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:50.559 me as a woman. But the other side of that 346 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:54.559 is I didn't get treated as a woman unless I 347 00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:58.839 acted the way women were expected to behave. So I 348 00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:01.640 kind of went from one bar to another box. You know, 349 00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:04.240 that's the nature of a society. I mean, I don't. 350 00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:06.160 I mean, if you want to know why, I mean, 351 00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:09.480 why should gender be privileged? You know, in terms of identity, 352 00:21:09.640 --> 00:21:14.640 driver's license, par certificates, passports about something like eye color. Well, 353 00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:17.279 it's only because of the society we live in. It's 354 00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:20.640 because men. Like I said, gender is a social relationship 355 00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:24.720 and which in which men are privileged. I mean, that's 356 00:21:24.759 --> 00:21:25.480 what it's all about. 357 00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:29.240 Not like your thoughts on one of the things that 358 00:21:29.960 --> 00:21:34.839 I observe, if you will, Often I see trans when 359 00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:41.720 gender women who tend to sexualize their femininity glamorous poses, 360 00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:47.279 you know, glamorous jewelry, makeup, et cetera. And sometimes I 361 00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:50.519 wonder if that's the right approach as well, too, to 362 00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:54.559 be overly sexualized, where where women are looking for a 363 00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:59.680 certain identity of equality, but yet trans women are going 364 00:21:59.720 --> 00:22:03.079 into the traditional what you like you were saying, they 365 00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:07.839 make themselves look their image of what a traditionally glamorous 366 00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:09.039 woman might be. 367 00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:13.519 Your thoughts on that, uh, are you paying attention to 368 00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:15.119 how thirteen year old girls dress? 369 00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:19.680 That's that's amazing to me. Absolutely, Yes, it's a phase, 370 00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:20.880 you know, want to. 371 00:22:22.759 --> 00:22:24.759 What can I say? There's nothing I can say about 372 00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:29.000 that when someone first comes out, they want to be Yeah, 373 00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:31.200 just trying things on. 374 00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:34.359 I was gonna say, is that it's it's that kind 375 00:22:34.359 --> 00:22:38.319 of burst of freedom that you're really spreading wings. Just 376 00:22:38.359 --> 00:22:39.359 trying to understand that's. 377 00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:41.519 Part of it. But I mean they're women like I 378 00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:46.359 don't know, Marilyn Monroe, Madonna, I mean, who trying to 379 00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:51.960 be flirtatious, you know, way past her prime. I mean, yeah, 380 00:22:52.039 --> 00:22:55.400 so I don't. I mean, I hear what you're saying, 381 00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:58.359 but I mean I can't say anything negative about it. 382 00:22:58.400 --> 00:23:01.720 But yeah, but that's but that's the problem. See, I 383 00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:04.799 would say socially, there's a difference. I did not grow 384 00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:07.400 up with a mother telling me you can't do this, 385 00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:09.559 you can't do that. A lady doesn't do this, A 386 00:23:09.640 --> 00:23:15.000 lady doesn't do that. I mean, And so sometimes there 387 00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:18.319 are cracks and my facade and my performance. I use 388 00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:21.880 words I shouldn't. And I had one friend tell me that, 389 00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:27.440 you know, women never say tits, women say boobs. You know, 390 00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:30.519 there's little things like that. So when you don't grow 391 00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:32.799 up with the kind of social conditioning when you don't 392 00:23:32.839 --> 00:23:35.079 have this inner voice that tells you got to behave 393 00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:39.160 then of course, yeah, but yes, I think that's where 394 00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:41.119 that's coming from. 395 00:23:41.480 --> 00:23:44.599 I really appreciate appreciate that answer, and again comes to 396 00:23:44.640 --> 00:23:47.119 come to an understanding. We talk a little bit about 397 00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:51.000 your husband and your relationship with him, if if I 398 00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:57.039 remember correctly, he was an Orthodox Jew. When you often 399 00:23:57.200 --> 00:24:04.240 associate your situation in an Orthodox any Orthodoxy, ultra Christian, 400 00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:07.759 ultra Jewish, Muslim, etc. That seems to me there would 401 00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:10.400